home

Eugene Robinson's Funny That Way

Via FDL, and just to prove there is some intelligent and wry life in the Media:

Silver Spring, Md.: I think Copernicus, Galileo and the modern astronomy community are all wrong about the sun-centered solar system. I don’t have any data, or any particular expertise in the field. All I know is that it bothers me to have people saying we orbit the sun, when I can clearly see it moving across the sky. Plus it is scaring the children to hear people talk about it. Could you tell me how to get an [o]p-ed piece published at The Post? I hear they have no standards for this anymore. Thank you!

Eugene Robinson: I think there must be a Bush administration science panel that has a spot for you!

Heh.

< "She's Funny That Way" | Abuse Of Power In The Cause of Stupidity >
  • Premium Ads

  • Blog Ads

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

    donate to TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Fabulous Question. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 09:40:25 PM EST


    I liked the answer (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 09:41:19 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Gene does good work. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 09:46:08 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    was that letter from (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by cpinva on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 09:57:50 PM EST
    emily yoffe? this would seem right up her alley, since she believes the "children are being scared" by facts.

    emily yoffe? (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 11:46:43 PM EST
    On June 25, 2007, Yoffe wrote an op-ed piece for the Washington Post attacking scientific claims of anthropogenic global warming, charging Al Gore with orchestrating a "campaign ... [of] fright and absolutes."[2] She was criticized by some for writing about a theory based largely on numerical evidence despite having recently written an article about herself titled "The Math Moron" in which she revealed that she tested at a first-grade level in mathematics.

    Wikipedia

    [ Parent ]

    Looks to me (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by aj12754 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:37:09 AM EST
    like the intelligent and wry and snarky life is not so much in the media as in the chat participant who submitted the question.

    Medieval warming. (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by desertswine on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 03:01:17 PM EST
    I dunno, if ya can't trust your own right wing government, who the hell can you trust?

    Medieval Warming Period.

    "The idea of a global or hemispheric "Medieval Warm Period" that was warmer than today however, has turned out to be incorrect." - so says the NOAA.

    The debate about GW is over really, except for a few "Dead-enders," or as Rummy might say, "Climate-saddamists."

    desertswine (1.00 / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:43:41 PM EST
    What records that do exist show is that there was no multi-century periods when global or hemispheric temperatures were the same or warmer than in the 20th century

    Uh the issue isn't that it was warmer than the 20th century. Just that it got warmer.

    Link

    Now, I love this:

    There are not enough records available to reconstruct global or even hemispheric mean temperature prior to about 600 years ago with a high degree of confidence.

    Pay attention folks. What desertswine's expert is saying is that they only have about 600 years of usuable information.

    That of course is a convenient way to "get rid of the Medieval warming period.... But does it? From my link:

    Second Assessment Report of the IPCC, there was no hockey stick. Instead the millennial climate history contained a MWP and a subsequent Little Ice Age, as shown as in Figure 3. The late 20th century appears to be nothing special by comparison. It is easy to see why this graph was a problem for those pushing the global warming alarm. If the world could warm so much on such a
    short time scale as a result of natural causes, surely the 20th century climate change could
    simply be a natural effect as well...

    Those wanting to "get rid of" the MWP run into the problem that it shows up strongly in the data. Shortly after Deming's article appeared, a group led by Shaopeng Huang of the University of Michigan completed a major analysis of over 6,000 borehole records from every continent around the world. Their study went back 20,000 years. The portion covering the last millennium is shown in Figure 4. The similarity to the IPCC's 1995 graph is obvious. The world experienced a "warm" interval in the medieval era that dwarfs 20th century changes. The present-day climate appears to be simply a recovery from the cold years of the "Little Ice Age." 5

    So what does that mean? If you believe the NOAA guy there wasn't enough evidence.... So he limits the time frame to 600 years (and that gets rid of the Medieval Warming). But the 600 year limit reduces everything to less than a heart beat in the history of earth's climate change. Neat, eh? Information doesn't fit? We'll just include it out. (My apologies to Samuel Goldwyn.)

    If you believe the University of MI guy, who took 6000 bore holes going back 20,000 years, all over the world, the Medieval Warm period is real.

    Now, who to believe???

    Well, NOAA is funded by the feds, and if there is a big climate crisis, guess what?? Money is falling from the sky.

    In the meantime, the MI team gets rocks thrown at them for just pursuing basic, non-exciting research that sure won't get Algore on their side...or the Popes and Cardinals of man made global warming...

    You pick'em... I'll take Michigan....(and that's tough on a southern boy...)

    [ Parent ]

    an ignorant retired salesman ... (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:05:39 PM EST
    ... who can't provide a single article from a scientific peer reviewed publication for his bizarre beliefs insists on ranting about things he knows nothing about.

    And he has hijacked a whole thread with those psychotic rants that have nothing to do with the thread.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, (none / 0) (#51)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:09:30 AM EST
    the option is the NOAA or the Ox-fart theory!

    Hahahaha!

    [ Parent ]

    desertswine (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:40:48 AM EST
    What a nifty way to avoid the obvious...

    I see that you too need a reminder of Occam's Razor:

    The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. This principle is often called the principle of parsimony. It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building. It admonishes us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon the simplest one

    Ox farts?? Yeah that is the simplest and most obvious.....  LOL.

    Can you spell S U N??

    I love you folks. You hold on to man made global warming tighter than any christian I ever knew discussing immaculate conception.

    [ Parent ]

    can you provide a single ... (none / 0) (#55)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:58:21 AM EST
    ... link to a peer reviewed journal that supports your spurious claims?

    [ Parent ]
    As that great philosopher... (none / 0) (#56)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 12:03:28 PM EST
    Popeye might say:

    Salami, salami,

    Boloney.

    Really, I can't take your crap seriously.

    [ Parent ]

    desertswine (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 07:57:56 PM EST
    You're expert just had his "pert" chopped off. Keep spinning....

    [ Parent ]
    A long as wingnuts belieeeve (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 04:46:28 PM EST
    there was a medieval warming period -- and continue to protect our way of life -- that's all that matters.

    Tenured radicals at our universities that poison the minds of young scientists need not apply.

    [ Parent ]

    medieval warming period? (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 04:55:18 PM EST
    Proof that history does repeat itself.  Another four years of GOP and I am sure we can re-experience the era of the cave man ....

    [ Parent ]
    I think we're re-experiencing it now (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 05:11:59 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Over? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 05:17:52 PM EST
    Not really.

    Seems like the science says we should get ready to break out the long-johns sometime in the next few hundred years instead of worrying about GW.

    GW-->diluting/shutting down thermohaline-->Ice Age

    Of course that doesn't make the Bushist argument (historical variations in termperature mean we aren't affecting the climate now) any less ridiculous. Just because there are climate cycles doesn't mean we might not be altering them with what we're putting into the atmosphere.


    [ Parent ]

    Heh... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by desertswine on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 05:37:51 PM EST
    if anyone's still around to see it. Maybe the Neo-cave men squeaky mentioned.

    [ Parent ]
    Alien (1.00 / 1) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:51:08 PM EST
    Just because there are climate cycles doesn't mean we might not be altering them with what we're putting into the atmosphere.

    "might"

    So, we have qualifier.

    BTW - If you read desertswine link you will find a NOAA guy saying that you can't pay any attention to any info over 600 years old.

    [ Parent ]

    That's right (none / 0) (#50)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 12:55:02 AM EST
    I'm in the "might" camp. I think the warming part is past doubt but at this point I'm not convinced human activity is the major factor.

    [ Parent ]
    et al (3.00 / 2) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 10:02:43 PM EST
    Sigh.....

    As a typical snarky attempt at dissing the Bush admin it demonstrates that the Left isn't capable of  finding an example that works.

    That is, of course, assuming that you have heard of telescopes and assorted other methods.

    All of which are easily demonstrated and easily repeated and shown without the use of PR and UN papers to prove it.

    Not to mention Algore and his flying machine.

    In that case (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 10:09:10 PM EST
    Are you saying that you accept the scientific "consensus" that the Earth orbits the Sun?

    After all, it's not "proof," it's just "consensus," and you have indicated that scientific consensus does not impress you.

    [ Parent ]

    RePack (1.00 / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:46:07 AM EST
    Do you understand the concept in science that to be a "fact," a theory must be able to be proven??

    Do you understand that by using something called a telescope, not to mention other methods, it can be proven that the earth circles the sun?

    That is not a consensus. That is a demonstratable fact.

    When Algore, when he is not busy flitting about in his wonderful flying machine dumping huge amounts of  CO2 into the atmosphere, can do the above, please let me know.

    Until them keep rubbing the chicken bones together, banging on the drums and saying...

    "I believeeeeee, I believeeeee...."

    [ Parent ]

    Look it up (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 10:37:22 AM EST
    Do you understand the concept in science that to be a "fact," a theory must be able to be proven??

    No, I don't.  Theories and facts are different things.  A fact is an observation, such as, "The sun rises in the east, but in a different place from day to day."  A theory is the explanation for that observation.  

    The explanation, or theory, for the sun's travels used to be Mercury driving a flaming chariot across the sky, but that has been modified by further observations.  The current theory is that the sun is a huge ball of hydrogen which is generating energy by a process of nuclear fusion, turning that hydrogen into helium and other elements, and that its apparent motion is caused by the Earth's rotation.

    A "Theory" is the best available explanation of the facts and the best predictor of future events, and can always be modified when new facts arise or more accurate predictions become possible with another theory.

    Thus, Newton's THEORY of Universal Gravitation was supplanted by Einstein's THEORY of Relativity when Einstein's theory predicted that gravity could bend light and then observations using equipment unavailable to Newton proved that it did.  Now Einstein's theory is being challenged by some who do not believe that the speed of light is a constant, as relativity requires, but it it up to the challengers to demonstrate with observations the factual basis for their new theory.

    Just as it is here, in science you are entitled to your own theory, but not to your own facts.

    [ Parent ]

    If you did know anything about science, PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 10:49:24 AM EST
    you'd know that a Greek astronomer determined the Earths' diameter over 2000 years ago, and that Copernicus didn't use telescopes to formulate the heliocentric theory that gave him posthumous scientific fame.

    Oh, and this is what the 'consensus' is about:

    Is it meaningless? Let's see what Google thinks. Search for "Climate change is real" and click on the "I'm feeling lucky" button, and you get this joint statement from the national science academies of Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, Russia, the UK and the USA:

        Climate change is real

        There will always be uncertainty in understanding a system as complex as the world's climate. . The evidence comes from direct measurements of rising surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures and from phenomena such as increases in average global sea levels, retreating glaciers, and changes to many physical and biological systems. It is likely that most of the warming in recent decades can be attributed to human activities (IPCC 2001). This warming has already led to changes in the Earth's climate.

    Link

    [ Parent ]

    Can you explain how looking (4.00 / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 10:25:13 AM EST
    through those telescopes proves the earth revolves around the sun?

    Can you explain how looking through those telescopes proves the universe is expanding?

    Can you explain how we know space time is curved?

    Can you explain how we know quantam physics is true?

    The science of global warming is based on observations. It is NOT a theoretical scientifc model deviod of observations as you seem to argue.

    That you deny its scientific basis is simply bizarre.

    Al Gore is not the person you should look to to demonstrate it. You should look to the climate science community. That is who Al Gore is referencing.

    Get over your Gore Derangement Syndrome and instead attack your real enemy - the scientific community. As the Catholic Church attacked Galileo when he first explained that the Earth was NOT the center of the Universe, based on his observations.

    [ Parent ]

    RePack (1.00 / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 01:29:09 PM EST
    Those things you mentioned are verifable and repeatable and don't a politician to huck them.

    Good grief. What a total lack of understanding about science.

    [ Parent ]

    retired salemen ... (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 02:44:47 PM EST
    ... don't have a clue about science. Especially when they repeatedly and ignorantly are unable to understand the simple definitions of 'theory' and 'consensus' when used in a scientific context.

    And ER's reply was perfect seeing as how bush political appointees have repeatedly gagged and overruled scientists from the EPA to OSHA to NASA.

    [ Parent ]

    Sailor (1.00 / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 04:07:24 PM EST
    That's Mr. Retired Salesman to you.

    Now. Can you answer the question??? No??

    Four flusher.

    ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    sailor (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 06:26:52 PM EST
    BTW - Make sure you keep that FICA and Medicare taxes rolling in. I need a new bass fishing boat.

    ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    OFF TOPIC TROLL POST (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:00:37 PM EST
    this commenter obviously can't deal with the actual post topic.

    He continually violates TL's comment policy but isn't censured or banned for his attacks.

    Many others have been limited to 4 posts/day or banned for these actions.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD (1.00 / 1) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 02:25:42 PM EST
    If I remember it was the scientific community supported by the Catholic church who were so eager to agree with the politicans/chuchmen.

    Galileo went to Rome to defend himself against these accusations, but, in 1616, Cardinal Roberto Bellarmino personally handed Galileo an admonition enjoining him neither to advocate nor teach Copernican astronomy.[2]

    Sure reminds me of today.

    [ Parent ]

    You don't answer my questions (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 03:59:20 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    BTD (1.00 / 2) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:02:03 PM EST
    Sigh.... I could blather away about light going away shifts down towards the red, and shifting up coming at you... I could even try and remember what the bending of light waves as it passes stars does..

    But I'm not a scientist, and haven't claimed to be one.

    Is it your claim that you must be a scientist to talk about GW??

    How about columnists?? Do you have to be columnists to talk about one???

    Teaching... Must you be one???  But I think you get my point.

    And my point?? You are trying to shut down discussion by inserting a phony issue.

    I am not trying to prove that man made GW doesn't exist. I'm merely pointing that consensus science isn't science and that a significant number of scientists question it.

    And my questions which you can't answer? Why did we have a medieval warming period?

    Why is Mars getting warmer because of solar activity without it also warming the earth?
     

    [ Parent ]

    Didn't know that a Cardinal was part of the (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 04:38:19 PM EST
    scientific community of the time, PPJ.

    Of course, you deliberately didn't quote this part of the article:

    Pope Urban VIII personally asked Galileo to give arguments for and against heliocentrism in the book, and to be careful not to advocate heliocentrism. He made another request, that his own views on the matter be included in Galileo's book. Only the latter of those requests was fulfilled by Galileo. Whether unknowingly or deliberate, Simplicius, the defender of the Aristotelian Geocentric view in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was often caught in his own errors and sometimes came across as a fool. This fact made Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems appear as an advocacy book; an attack on Aristotelian geocentrism and defense of the Copernican theory. To add insult to injury, Galileo put the words of Pope Urban VIII into the mouth of Simplicius. Most historians agree Galileo did not act out of malice and felt blindsided by the reaction to his book. However, the Pope did not take the public ridicule lightly, nor the blatant bias. Galileo had alienated one of his biggest and most powerful supporters, the Pope, and was called to Rome to explain himself.

    Nothing about the "scientific community" in the article, btw.

    Also, remember this:

    "They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
    Carl Sagan

    Link

    [ Parent ]

    DA (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:03:33 PM EST
    You don't know that Algore is the Pope of man made global warming?

    Where have you been?

    [ Parent ]

    Who knew? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:56:34 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    If you did know anything about science, PPJ (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 10:33:31 AM EST
    you'd know that a Greek astronomer determined the Earths' diameter over 2000 years ago, and that Copernicus didn't use telescopes to formulate the heliocentric theory that gave him posthumous scientific fame.

    Oh, and this is what the 'consensus' is about:

    Is it meaningless? Let's see what Google thinks. Search for "Climate change is real" and click on the "I'm feeling lucky" button, and you get this joint statement from the national science academies of Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, Russia, the UK and the USA:

        Climate change is real

        There will always be uncertainty in understanding a system as complex as the world's climate. . The evidence comes from direct measurements of rising surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures and from phenomena such as increases in average global sea levels, retreating glaciers, and changes to many physical and biological systems. It is likely that most of the warming in recent decades can be attributed to human activities (IPCC 2001). This warming has already led to changes in the Earth's climate.



    [ Parent ]
    DA blathers onward (1.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 01:39:28 PM EST
    I see you are making things up again. You wrote:

    If you did know anything about science, PPJ you'd know that a Greek astronomer determined the Earths' diameter over 2000 years ago, and that Copernicus didn't use telescopes to formulate the heliocentric theory that gave him posthumous scientific fame.

    What I wrote:

    Do you understand that by using something called a telescope, not to mention other methods, it can be proven that the earth circles the sun?

    Nothing I wrote disputes your comments, and is accurate. So what's your point?? I mean  besides trying to smear me.

    BTW - The issue isn't climate change. The issue is what is causing it, and what, if anything, we can do about it.

    Political committees mouthing PC words are meaningless.

    Now. Tell me why Mars is getting warmer from solar activity and we're not.

    Tell me why we had a medival warming period.

    [ Parent ]

    blah. blah blah (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 02:45:52 PM EST
    nothing but constant personal attacks and trolling.

    try for once to actually stay on topic.

    [ Parent ]

    sailor (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:04:47 PM EST
    And making things up I didn't say is what... an impersonal attack??

    Lol sailor.

    BTW - Can you answer the question??

    [ Parent ]

    Actually, PPJ, you know more about blathering (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 02:51:57 PM EST
    and here you smear yourself here with the tactics you typically employ.

    You can't explain how a heliocentric theory can be derived from observation with or without telescopes because you don't understand how science works other than what you parrot from various wingnut websites.

    BTW - The issue isn't climate change. The issue is what is causing it, and what, if anything, we can do about it.

    That's so funny I forgot to laugh.

    Political committees mouthing PC words are meaningless.

    That you cannot tell the difference between the science academies of the major nations of the world and 'political committees' shows a level of ignorance uncommon even for you, PPJ.

    Now. Tell me why Mars is getting warmer from solar activity and we're not.

    Well, you do understand that the goechemistry(which is still not completely understood), the atmospheric dynamics, the size of the planet, etc. are all quite different than that
    or our planet, so it doesn't follow that Mars is getting warmer from the same cause as our planet due to one or a combination of the differences I mentioned above.

    Also, not everyone is convinced that the warming is due entirely to solar causes, do a little research on the subject, PPJ instead of relying on one NatGeo article.

    Oh, and you omitted this from the NatGeo article

    Amato Evan, a climate scientist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, added that "the idea just isn't supported by the theory or by the observations."

    and this:

    Perhaps the biggest stumbling block in Abdussamatov's theory is his dismissal of the greenhouse effect, in which atmospheric gases such as carbon dioxide help keep heat trapped near the planet's surface.

    He claims that carbon dioxide has only a small influence on Earth's climate and virtually no influence on Mars.

    But "without the greenhouse effect there would be very little, if any, life on Earth, since our planet would pretty much be a big ball of ice," said Evan, of the University of Wisconsin.

    So one scientist has a theory you like, and therefore anthropogenic global warming is a cabal made up of climate scientists, Al Gore spreading his evil via air travel, etc.

    As for the Medieval Warm Period, this is from the Wikipedia:

    It was initially believed that the temperature changes were global. However, this view has been questioned; the 2001 IPCC report summarises this research, saying "...current evidence does not support globally synchronous periods of anomalous cold or warmth over this time frame, and the conventional terms of 'Little Ice Age' and 'Medieval Warm Period' appear to have limited utility in describing trends in hemispheric or global mean temperature changes in past centuries".[2]

    If there is any evidence you know of or can find that the MWP was global in extent, that would be interesting to see

    Finally

    excuse me..........

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    [ Parent ]

    DA (1.00 / 1) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 07:09:04 PM EST
    However, this view has been questioned; the 2001 IPCC report summarise

    So, it didn't happen and if it did it was only in the Northern hemispehere between New England and Germany???

    As you say

    HAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH

    And you believe such trash?

    What's next? Selective sunshine areas??

    Good grief...

    Don't forget to go to Mass. Pope Algore is watching you.

    [ Parent ]

    PPJ, you are confusing two things here (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:53:12 PM EST
    1.  That there were higher temperatures in Europe and some surrounding areas is indisputable.

    but, what don't you understand about:

    current evidence does not support globally synchronous periods of anomalous cold or warmth over this time frame

    Which means that it's possible for areas of earth to have periods of unusual heat or cold in the past, just that there hasn't been any evidence that the earth as a whole has cooled or heated in an unusual way in the past.

    Now, since the report is 4 years old it's possible that there has been evidence that there have unusual periods of global warming and/or cooling, but you haven't shown any inclination to find that out, and since you've brought up the subject, it's incumbent upon you to demonstrate facts and logic backing up your position, but of course, with you, that's a bug, not a feature.

    Not a problem.

    Here's from a NOAA site, last updated 11/10/2006 :

    The idea of a global or hemispheric "Medieval Warm Period" that was warmer than today however, has turned out to be incorrect.

    and

    In their Perspective, Bradley et al. review the evidence and conclude that although the High Medieval (1100 to 1200 A.D.) was warmer than subsequent centuries, it was not warmer than the late 20th century. Moreover, the warmest Medieval temperatures were not synchronous around the globe. Large changes in precipitation patterns are a particular characteristic of "High Medieval" time. The underlying mechanisms for such changes must be elucidated further to inform the ongoing debate on natural climate variability and anthropogenic climate change.

    Link

    And you believe such trash?

    Prove me wrong, PPJ, you abandoned your "Mars getting hotter from the Sun" position, and if you could link to something showing the MWP was global, that would make your case for you better than 10,000 snarks.

    But you'd know that if you understood how science works, and you haven't been able to demonstrate that you can do more than parrot what various blogs and opinions pieces tell you to think in the past or today

    and the offer I made the other day still stands, but I'm counting on you not to accept it, you're much more entertaining that way.

    What's next? Selective sunshine areas??

    No, a concept even more improbable:  You showing some originality or independence of thought.

    That's something that many others and I would  find inconceivable.

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    DA (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:32:49 AM EST
    Prove me wrong, PPJ, you abandoned your "Mars getting hotter from the Sun" position, and if you could link to something showing the MWP was global, that would make your case for you better than 10,000 snarks.

    You're wrong.

    See my comment re Mars and see comment to Desertswine that shoots holes in NOAA.

    Ta Ta

    [ Parent ]

    I'm going to quote from the site (none / 0) (#58)
    by Dark Avenger on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 02:40:09 PM EST
    Sorry, PPJ, but from the NOAA link:

    What records that do exist show is that there was no multi-century periods when global or hemispheric temperatures were the same or warmer than in the 20th century.

    Which is right after the part you quoted to desertswine.

    Yadda
    Yadda
    Yaddah!

    [ Parent ]

    DA (1.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 08:00:40 PM EST
    so it doesn't follow that Mars is getting warmer from the same cause as our planet due to one or a combination of the differences I mentioned above.

    So, we know the sun can make it warmer... But let's claim it is getting warmer for some reason  we don't know...as you say

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Occam's Razor, dude....

    The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. This principle is often called the principle of parsimony. It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building. It admonishes us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon the simplest one.

    That would be sun. On Mars and on the Earth.

    [ Parent ]

    Gee, PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 09:03:05 PM EST
    you probably didn't know that scientists aren't all in agreement that the heating observed on Mars is all solar-dependent, but then if you did your research on the subject it would limit your dingbat assertions to the point where you really wouldn't have much to say.

    Take this, for example:

    Scientists have been puzzling over the cause of dramatic global warming on Mars, which has made parts of the south polar ice cap disappear in recent years. The answer, it seems, is blowing in the wind: the planet's famous reddish dust.

    Using global circulation models similar to those used to analyse Earth's changing climate, a team led by Lori Fenton of NASA's Ames Research Center in California, US, found that Mars seems to have warmed by about 0.65° Celsius in the three decades since the Viking mission first provided detailed mapping of the whole planet.

    .....................................

    While the dust redistribution may be unique to Mars, Earth may have analogous feedback processes that can amplify changes in surface reflectivity - in this case, mostly based on changes in sea ice and snow cover.

    But although some scientists argue that the global warming on Mars shows there must be some external cause to Earth's warming - such as a change in solar output rather than human-caused increases in greenhouse gases - Geissler says the new research undercuts that argument. "What our work shows is that the warming on Mars that we know has been going on for some time has a local cause [on Mars]," he told New Scientist.

    Sorry to harsh your mellow with this data, PPJ, but, Geissler said what he said.

    [ Parent ]

    DA (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 11:35:22 AM EST
    Ah so you are saying that I shouldn't believe because of some consensus...

    Now who do I know that made the same argument..

    ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    Gersh, PPJ (none / 0) (#57)
    by Dark Avenger on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 02:32:35 PM EST
    You've just proven that you didn't read the article, and/or you saw the word consensus so by your standards no further thinking was needed on your part.

    Wrong

    If you had read carefully, you'd see that there is still no definite consensus about the cause of Mars' warming.

    If this theory about the dust is correct, then predictions can be made and tested by further observations of Mars to see if they come true or not.

    Conversely, a counter-theory(if you could formulate one) should have falsifiable conclusions that can be tested against real-world observations and experiments.

    That's how science works. You really should read the book the other commentator recommended to you, because right now you're babbling.

    Parroting what you've learned on wingnut websites instead of discussing the concepts at hand makes you only risible at best and pathetic at worse.

    Oh, and before I forget

    Yadda
    Yadda
    Yaddah!

    [ Parent ]

    DA (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 07:56:45 PM EST
    Ha ha......

    Please. You're boring me.

    [ Parent ]

    If boring can get through the thick (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Dark Avenger on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 08:51:24 PM EST
    mantle of ideology you've wrapped your thinking processes around, it's a small price to pay.

    [ Parent ]
    Apparently -- (none / 0) (#14)
    by aj12754 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 01:22:08 PM EST
    you have no understanding of science.  There is no such thing as proof in science.  Only disproof.  A theory is not provable.  A theorem is.  Proof is a concept that is only relevant in logic.

    Theories are either supported by the evidence or disproved by it.

    Quick -- run out and buy The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.  

    [ Parent ]

    or mathematics I forgot to add. (none / 0) (#15)
    by aj12754 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 01:23:46 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    aj12754 (1.00 / 1) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 02:13:49 PM EST
    Well, you are correct in that my terminology is terrible and loosely defined.

    So let me be clear.

    Global climate change is real and has been proven and has been on going for millions of years.

    But "consensus" by X number of scientists does not mean that man made global warming is real...is a fact...exists.....it means that there is a general agreement.

    It is a theory:

    the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
    2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
    3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>

    Theorem:

    an idea accepted or proposed as a demonstrable truth often as a part of a general theory

    Again: Man made (caused) global warming has not met the requirement of demonstratable proof.

    When you can remove "consensus" from the discussion let me know.
    .
    Now, since you apperar to be an expert. Please explain why we had a medieval warming period.


    [ Parent ]

    Facts... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by aj12754 on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 09:22:36 PM EST
    like global climate change are not "proven" -- they are documented.  The attempts by scientists to explain the facts are theories.  A consensus forms around the theory with the greatest explanatory power and it becomes the dominant theory in a scientific discipline until (a) is it disproven, or (b) superseded by a theory with greater explanatory power.  

    An essential part of supporting a given theory is that other scientists are able to replicate the findings of experiments designed to support or disprove the theory.  This is how the consensus forms -- it is not groupthink as you seem to think.  

    Your misunderstanding of the scientific process would be rectified by a quick perusal of The Structure of Scientific Revolution.

    [ Parent ]

    As in: I belieeeeeve (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 02:14:43 PM EST
    the model of interacting with the environment dictated by Sean Hannity and Halliburton is the pinnacle of civilised man's quest for knowledge.
    As in: I belieeeeve scientists brainwashed into "detesting our way of life" by the left wing radicals who have commandeered academia, are in league in perpetrating a hoax in order to destroy our precious bodily fluids..etc etc

    [ Parent ]
    Jondee (1.00 / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 02:28:06 PM EST
    Complaining about Talk Radio hosts doesn't hide the fact that you still haven't told us why we had a medieval warming period.

    Was it the CO2 produced by all of those ox carts?

    [ Parent ]

    yet another psychotic episode (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 27, 2007 at 04:31:05 PM EST
    of 'all about jim'

    Got anything to say on topic?

    Or even any peer reviewed articles denying climate change being man made?

    Yeah, I thought so.

    [ Parent ]

    This is a funny comment (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 10:25:59 PM EST
    Kudos to you Jim.

    [ Parent ]
    Is NOAA the best you can do?? (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 28, 2007 at 08:14:39 PM EST
    First they tell us that the Medieval Warming period doesn't exist because only the past 600 years of records count.....despite a U of MI study that involved 6000 boreholes world wide....and now we find out that they have their temp collection points located next to air conditioner exhausts..

    Yeah. These guys practice real science.

    http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=267405911624139">And you wonder why I say consensus science is BS??"

    So Watts and a few volunteers decided to check a few of them out, about 40 so far. They found one station in Forest Grove, Ore., that stands just 10 feet from an air conditioning exhaust vent. Another station in Roseburg, Ore., is on a rooftop near an AC unit. In Tahoe, Calif., one is near a drum where trash is burned

    Now the same people who emote love over NOAA don't like a U of MI study??

    Pardon me while I laugh at such nonsense. How many bridges in Brooklyn will you buy?