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Rich v. Cohen

Sunday, Frank Rich wrote:

What makes these [Libby testimonials]rise above inanity is the portrait they provide of a wartime capital cut adrift from moral bearings. . . . The Libby supporters never acknowledge the undisputed fact that their hero, a lawyer by profession, leaked classified information about a covert C.I.A. officer. And that he did so not accidentally but to try to silence an administration critic who called attention to the White House's prewar lies about W.M.D. intelligence. And that he compounded the original lies by lying repeatedly to investigators pursuing an inquiry that without his interference might have nailed others now known to have also leaked Valerie Wilson's identity (Richard Armitage, Karl Rove, Ari Fleischer). . . . Given that Mr. Libby expressed no contrition in court after being convicted, you'd think some of his defenders might step into that moral vacuum to speak for him. But there's been so much lying surrounding this war from the start that everyone is inured to it by now. In Washington, lying no longer registers as an offense against the rule of law.

Right on cue comes Richard Cohen:

With the sentencing of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Fitzgerald has apparently finished his work, which was, not to put too fine a point on it, to make a mountain out of a molehill. At the urging of the liberal press (especially the New York Times), he was appointed to look into a run-of-the-mill leak and wound up prosecuting not the leaker -- Richard Armitage of the State Department -- but Libby, convicted in the end of lying. This is not an entirely trivial matter since government officials should not lie to grand juries, but neither should they be called to account for practicing the dark art of politics. As with sex or real estate, it is often best to keep the lights off.

Of course, Cohen knows not what he is talking about on the facts and his moral compass in nonexistent. Cohen has no idea apparently that Libby was a leaker too. Apparently the idea of 2 or more leakers is too difficult a concept for Cohen to grasp. Apparently the idea of obstruction of justice is not comprehensible for Cohen. Of course, the idea that the CIA referred the case to the Justice Department is a fact unknown or conveniently ignored by Richard Cohen, a Beltway boob of the first order. Of course the fact that John Ashcroft had to recuse himself because of his ties to Karl Rove is not something Cohen can get his head around.

When men like James Comey and Patrick Fitzgerald can be falsely smeared by the likes of a doofus like Richard Cohen (and Cohen is a doofus on almost every issue by the way) says everything you need to know about the Beltway.

Consider this from Cohen:

As Fitzgerald worked his wonders, threatening jail and going after government gossips with splendid pluck, many opponents of the Iraq war cheered. They thought -- if "thought" can be used in this context -- that if the thread was pulled on who had leaked the identity of Valerie Plame to Robert D. Novak, the effort to snooker an entire nation into war would unravel and this would show . . . who knows? Something. For some odd reason, the same people who were so appalled about government snooping, the USA Patriot Act and other such threats to civil liberties cheered as the special prosecutor weed-whacked the press, jailed a reporter and now will send a previously obscure government official to prison for 30 months.

Well, I doubt any thought has gone into this idiotic column. I do not know what would have come of the investigation if Scooter Libby had testify truthfully. But consider what Cohen is saying, who cares that there was an "effort to snooker an entire nation into war?" Who cares that the same group was willing to compromise the covert status of a CIA officer? Who cares about the hubris of government officials lying under oath and obstructing Justice?

Cohen quotes Robert Jackson saying "[prosecutors] should limit themselves to cases in which the offense is the most flagrant, the public harm the greatest." To Cohen, the hundred of thousands of persons in federal custody, they are good examples of this, but his cocktail party friends like Scooter Libby, whatever they do is A-Ok. Do not prosecute them!

On that point, let ME quote Robert Jackson:

It is my belief that the most important thing to bear in mind in administering a tax law, however burdensome or unpopular it may be, is to see that the burden is laid equally without discrimination or favoritism and without permitting evasion.

. . . I have no fear of that crude form of influence which is attempted to be exerted through political lawyers. What the public thinks about political [lawyers] is, however, a different matter. If they could realize that the employment of political lawyers prejudices their cases, there would be far less of this sort of thing.

It is more difficult to be undiscriminating, however, as between taxpayers who employ able lawyers and make studied and persistent efforts to minimize their taxes and those who patiently accept assessments and plan to meet them. It requires consistent effort to avoid being over-persuaded by those who are insistent and to avoid forgetting the interests of those who are absent and unprotesting but who are entitled to equal consideration. It requires straight thinking to avoid being influenced either for or against a taxpayer because of his wealth or position or activity, or because of his relationship to our friends or our party.

Here Cohen plays the role of Libby's political lawayer, because he is of the Beltway. I doubt very much that Richard Cohen cares for THAT QUOTE from Robert Jackson. For it exposes that Cohen is arguing for unequal justice. Robert Jackson's Justice Department, like John Ashcroft's and Alberto Gonzales', all prosecuted persons who committed perjury and obstruction of justice. On what basis should Scooter Libby get fsavorable treatment? Why should Scooter Libby be pardoned while the many persons in prison should be forgotten by Richard Cohen?

If Richard Cohen thinks obstruction of justice and perjury should not be punishable by prison time, then he should say so. But to Cohen, obstruction of justice and perjury by Beltway types is not a crime.

Robert Jackson would be appalled.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Re: best to keep the lights off (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:11:00 AM EST
    I think Richard Cohen's lights went out long ago.

    Cohenating: Coulterintuitive Condilyzing causing Demagogarrhea.

    Cohen is in the throes of Glenndemma and probably running a high risk of Gorinecrophilia.


    So (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:14:12 AM EST
    now Rich is the "angr[y] proselytizer on the left." ;-)

    A Fallen Soldier in the WOT (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:18:51 AM EST
    consider what Cohen is saying, who cares that there was an "effort to snooker an entire nation into war?" Who cares that the same group was willing to compromise the covert status of a CIA officer? Who cares about the hubris of government officials lying under oath and obstructing Justice?
    One Beltway insider reports that the entire community is grieving - "weighted down by the sheer, glaring unfairness" of Libby's sentence.

    And there's the rub.

    None seem the least weighted down by the sheer, glaring unfairness of sentencing soldiers to repeated and longer tours of duty in a war induced by deception. It was left to the hawkish academic Fouad Ajami to state the matter baldly. In a piece published on the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal, Ajami pleaded with Bush to pardon Libby. For believing "in the nobility of this war," wrote Ajami, Scooter Libby had himself become a "casualty" - a fallen soldier the president dare not leave behind on the Beltway battlefield.

    Not a word in the entire article about the real fallen soldiers. The honest-to-God dead, and dying, and wounded. Not a word about the chaos or the cost. Even as the calamity they created worsens, all they can muster is a cry for leniency for one of their own who lied to cover their tracks.

    Moyers on Libby

    Greenwald nails it (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:02:37 AM EST
    The Libby prosecution clearly was the dirty work of the leftist anti-war movement in this country, just as Cohen describes.
    After all, the reason Patrick Fitzgerald was appointed to investigate this matter was because a left-wing government agency (known as the "Central Intelligence Agency") filed a criminal referral with the Justice Department, as the MoveOn-sympathizer CIA officials were apparently unhappy about the public unmasking of one of their covert agents.

    In response, Bush's left-wing anti-war Attorney General, John Ashcroft, judged the matter serious enough to recuse himself, leading Bush's left-wing anti-war Deputy Attorney General, James Comey, to conclude that a Special Prosecutor was needed. In turn, Comey appointed Fitzgerald, the left-wing anti-war Republican Prosecutor and Bush appointee, who secured a conviction of Libby, in response to which left-wing anti-war Bush appointee Judge Reggie Walton imposed Libby's sentence.



    Rob't Jackson w/be appalled by this administration (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by teacherken on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:51:20 AM EST
    allow me to quote perhaps his most famous words, from W. Virginia v Barnette, the 2nd Pledge case, in the opinion of the Court issued in 1943:

    If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

    The idea that this administration should be above criticism, that it is free to violate the rights of citizens (think of Jackson's dissent in Korematsu), that there is such a thing as a unitary executive as expounded by this administration (think of Jackson's e part test in the steel seizure case) leads me to believe that he woiuld condemn in the strongest terms most of the actions of this administration.

    Too bad Cohen only knows how to selectively - and out of context - find a quote that he thinks supports his very flawed position.

    How UnAmerican of Fitzgerald (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:55:04 AM EST
    How dare anyone meddle with the plans of a country bent on world domination, and no less to have done so while we are in the middle of several wars.

    Germany, who the architects of PNAC owe a great debt,  would have sent a prosecutor like Fitzgerald right to the gas chamber, and given Libby a couple of medals and maybe a hat.  

    The signatories of PNAC should have blanket immunity as long as we are at war (forever), right Mr. Cohen, ppj and slado?

    squeaky (1.00 / 1) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:48:19 PM EST
    How can I respond to such a comment.

    I mean  wit....

    oh.... you weren't trying to be funny??

    [ Parent ]

    You responded (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:49:05 PM EST
    FWIW.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD (none / 0) (#163)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 06:37:06 PM EST
    What does FWIW mean???

    I can never figure out all this blog speak.

    [ Parent ]

    For whatever its worth (none / 0) (#164)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 06:39:07 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    oculus (1.00 / 0) (#178)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 09:23:00 PM EST
    Thank you.

    And despite Edger's automtaic ad hominem attack, I really didn't. I don't do IM and I rarely comment outside of TL because I don't like echo chambers, be they from the Left or Right.

    [ Parent ]

    Once again, ppj (none / 0) (#182)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 09:29:46 PM EST
    Why do you feel attacked when someone praises your intelligence?

    [ Parent ]
    That answers a question I've been meaning (none / 0) (#207)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 11:23:49 AM EST
    to ask:  do you participate in other blogs?

    [ Parent ]
    oculus - Let me be blunt. (none / 0) (#208)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 11:59:23 AM EST
    Why would you want to know, or think it your business??

    But the answer is, mostly no. I learn nothing from the echo chambers of the Left and Right. TL is unique in encouraging disussion, although that doesn't suit Edger who, for some reason, thinks he runs the show...

    I have been hanging out here for over 4 years... I started to say blogging but I don't want sailor to suffer spasms.

    FWIW and BION I am a true social liberal, registered Independent and a ROF who lives in a Palatial Retirement Compound parcticing agronomy in a constant fight with rabbits, squirrels and Lefties....

    ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    To answer your question, I was curious (none / 0) (#214)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:53:27 PM EST
    because the atmosphere here is not particularly friendly to your contributions and, therefore, one wonders why a person would willingly "stay the course."  

    [ Parent ]
    oculus (none / 0) (#217)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 05:46:50 PM EST
    Rough seas make strong sailors.

    Eagles don't flock.

    I don't need to have my beliefs reaffrimed.

    [ Parent ]

    He knows that (none / 0) (#165)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 06:40:10 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I just wanted to jump in b/4 you did! (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 06:43:44 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Shorter Cohen: (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:37:22 PM EST
    laws and accountability are for little people.

    Why isnt this putz embarrassed to write crap like that? Because, when dealing with journalists with-sources-in-high-places and politics, it's best to leave the light off.

    History (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by manys on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 03:02:32 PM EST
    Were we supposed to think Leona Helmsley was an isolated incident?

    [ Parent ]
    Very revealing, et al: (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:36:24 AM EST
    Never, ever, never have I seen such a group of people who historically have had little trust in the government line up and do the "party speak" so very well.

    Yes, PPJ, that description fits you to the T, just substitute "WH" for party, and you've clearly defined yourself for us here.

    It makes me proud to be an Independent.

    Now, if you could act like one instead of the
    BAK act that you do here almost everyday, you'd have a real accomplishment to be proud of.

    TTFN

    DA (1.00 / 0) (#194)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 07:45:53 AM EST
    And a good morning DA.

    The problem you, and many others on the Left, is that you think that an Independent supposedly opposes the WOT.

    I do not. Thus I have been left.... no pun intended...with Bush for the war and almost no one on the social issues. Indeed, the only social issues that I have seen with any significant changes has been Medicare Rx, done by Bush and the Repubs over the objections of the Demos.

    Even now we here nothing from the Demos of any substance.

    Indeed, the Demos have become one note Petes, and the tune they have played since January is the one we can expect to hear into the future, and it is the only song that their base will let the play.

    Their problem then is simple. They can go further Left, but not to the center. They had best hope then that the war in Iraq doesn't wind down, because when it does they will be left stranded on the wrong side of the river.

    [ Parent ]

    Your mind-reading skills aren't working again. (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 09:19:29 AM EST
    The problem you, and many others on the Left, is that you think that an Independent supposedly opposes the WOT.

    No, PPJ, I can't speak for many others on the left, but I don't think that being an Independent means that one opposes the WOT.

    What tells us that you aren't an Independent is the constant support for Bushco on the WOT under any circumstances, and you constant blaming and accusating of "The Left" for all the ills of America.

    I must comment you on dropping your 'social liberal' act, or are you retooling that old chestnut to use in another thread?

    As a great Republican once said:

    "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." A. Lincoln

    Indeed, the only social issues that I have seen with any significant changes has been Medicare Rx, done by Bush and the Repubs over the objections of the Demos.

    Yes, and since you weren't affected financially by the bill, unlike the great majority of folks who were, it's okay.

    Yadda yadda yaddah.

    Hey, it's easy to imitate you, PPJ.

    Even now we here nothing from the Demos of any substance.

    You haven't been following the Demo candidates for President on this issue at all, have you?  

    Indeed, the Demos have become one note Petes, and the tune they have played since January is the one we can expect to hear into the future, and it is the only song that their base will let the play.

    Your usual diatribe against the Democrats is risible, and the 'base' at this point in time is 70% of Americans who want us to get out of Iraq.

    I expect that your prediction has as much value as those back in 2006 predicting the Republicans would still control both the House and Senate after the elections.

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    DA You are further confused (none / 0) (#210)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:11:46 PM EST
    and show it by thinking that a Liberal is automatically a Leftie...

    Huge difference, and getting larger every day.

    Oh. Can you tell me what the Demos have done since January??? I mean besides naming varuious Federal Buildings after themselves and trying... no they actially did this.... convincing the terrorists that if they can just get control they will surrender immediately in Iraq.

    As for your dependence on polls, I read somewhere that your Senate Majority leader is around 18%...

    Wow and all that.

    Yadda yadda

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry, PPJ, that I don't buy your bull**** (5.00 / 2) (#213)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:07:51 PM EST
    doesn't signal my confusion, but your failure to sell your POV with facts and reason.

    As for confusion, you seem better at it here than I can even hope to achieve.

    You show confusion when you show your BAK ways and then want to be known as a 'social liberal'. Re-read the Lincoln quote, and quit trying to tell us you're a leg when your syncophantic ways towards Bushco are obvious in your deluded thinking on display in this thread and numerous others as well.

    Huge difference, and getting larger every day.

    Got any numbers to back up your claim?  I believe you're as accurate as you were in your predictions for the 2006 midterms.  Thanks for playing Bizzaro Cassandra here.

    Oh. Can you tell me what the Demos have done since January???

    Demonstrated that the Republicans used the DOJ in a partisan manner(you remember Monica Goodling, don't cha?), raised the minimum wage, the usual stuff.

    I mean besides naming varuious Federal Buildings after themselves and trying... no they actially did this.... convincing the terrorists that if they can just get control they will surrender immediately in Iraq.

    Actually, the point is to get out of Iraq so that the terrorists won't be making brownie points with the locals by fighting us, you know how 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' even works in the Mid-East, right?

    Also, check this out from Too Hot for TNR:

    Happy Memorial Day.

        In an April 17 report written for the United States government, Dennis Pluchinsky, a former senior intelligence analyst at the State Department, said battle-hardened militants from Iraq posed a greater threat to the West than extremists who trained in Afghanistan because Iraq had become a laboratory for urban guerrilla tactics. (snip)

    The test case here is a foiled plot to blow up Amman's Queen Alia International Airport. In essence, jihadists came together -- a bomb-maker from Iraq, a prison-furloughed radical from Libya, a Damascus ringleader -- in areas of Syria where the Iraqi diaspora now resides and in the volatile Jordanian city of Zarqa, home to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Expect the 2-million-and-growing Iraqi refugee population in Jordan, Syria and elsewhere to be a prime stomping ground for jihadis looking to plan attacks in the region and beyond. That will become true central front of the war on terror.

    Of course, you're on the same side as the terrorists, as they want our troops over there, bringing them home would take them out of harms way, but as is typical of elitist thinking, that doesn't enter into your calculations at all.

    TTFN.

    [ Parent ]

    You don't need cash. I'll let you lease it. (5.00 / 1) (#215)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 05:33:34 PM EST
    I hope your Link is better than this one provided by Edger a few days ago. Here's a taste.

    In cases where a serious insurgency cannot be managed, the state and its supporters might consider an approach designed to deliberately encourage the insurgency to mutate into something less dangerous such as an organized criminal organization. This is never desirable, but there may be rare instances where organized crime is less of a threat than sustained insurgency. Call this strategic methadone. [p.52]


    [ Parent ]
    Gee, PPJ, this is a 1st (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 06:50:06 PM EST
    you've acknowledged a link and your refusal to click on it at the same time.

    I'll just say that the first contains some of your best prose, with a revealing ad hominem attack from you almost at the end.

    You should be proud, if it was fiction people would be calling you the Louisiana Faulkner.

    The second is from a political blog, but you can click the link and be informed; or remain in your present state of ignorance about said blog

    Anyhoo, you've admitted to being a BS retailer, but as usual you show your lack of familiarity with sales tactics by over-praising a 'competitor' so that you appear to be the nice guy.

    I need something with substance to use in my garden, what you peddle is the cotton-candy version of BS, it doesn't even come out the honest a** of a Texas Longhorn but scuzzier places on the internets like newswacx.com, WorldNutDaily.com, Powerlinebloat.com, etc.

    I know that you're scraping the bottom of the barrel when you start bringing a third party into the discussion. Thanks for showing people who you really are by your writings on this thread.

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    BTW (4.75 / 4) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:32:52 AM EST
    Here is how the "liberal world" reacted to Fitzgerald's appointment:

    From presidential candidates to rank-and-file members of Congress, many Democrats reacted with skepticism last week when Attorney General John Ashcroft withdrew from oversight of the C.I.A. leak case because of the potential for political taint, and his deputy, James B. Comey Jr., named Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the United States attorney in Chicago, to lead the investigation. Mr. Fitzgerald has earned bipartisan accolades for his tough-mindedness and legal acumen, and Justice Department officials say he will have the authority and resources to pursue the evidence wherever it leads.

    Still, many Democrats said only a truly independent counsel -- one outside the Justice Department -- could fairly determine whether White House officials leaked the identity of the C.I.A. officer, Valerie Plame, as payback for her husband's criticism of Mr. Bush.

    ''The American people deserve the most independent review possible,'' said Representative John Conyers Jr., Democrat from Michigan.

    The paradox is not lost on some Republicans. ''No matter who they got to investigate this,'' one Republican aide said, ''I don't know that the Democrats would be happy.''

    In other words, Cohen is full of crap on that as well.


    I also recall Bush defenders (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:38:30 AM EST
    talking him up. They really don't want to go down the road of trashing Fitzgerald now.

    [ Parent ]
    They have gone way down that road (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:55:25 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Shameless (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:05:05 AM EST
    but they know they can get away with it.

    [ Parent ]
    et al (1.00 / 4) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:37:13 AM EST
    now known to have also leaked Valerie Wilson's identity (Richard Armitage

    As everyone but Rich seems to know, Fitzgerald knew Armitage was a leaker when he was appointed, as did the State Department and FBI in 9/03.

    The secondary question is why Fitzgerald brought no charges of leaking against anyone. If he has evidence that proves she was covert, why didn't he bring it forward with an indictment and trial?

    That he did not places a large question mark above this whole affair.

    The standard excuse has been:

    Apparently the idea of 2 or more leakers is too difficult a concept for Cohen to grasp.

    Common sense goes begging in such a statement. Absent proof that they were working together, once the information was available, it was available.
    Period.

    It is likely that more people in DC knew about Mrs. Wilson than know who won yesterday's Washington National's baseball game.

    The facts are, as Fitzgerald finally revealed, his target was Cheney. And although he knew that Cheney had told Libby, he could not prove a conspiracy to leak a covert agent without Libby's cooperation. Again, he must not have information proving she was covert and understands that when the number of people who knew get put in front of a jury, the charges disappear like the dew in Dixie on a hot June day.

    Obviously (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:49:29 AM EST
    You are Cohen's target audience. Lap it up. Lying is OK, but someone who lies a liar is now unpatrioic.  Another principal swept under the rug for the war. Or is it the other way around?  

    But consider what Cohen is saying, who cares that there was an "effort to snooker an entire nation into war?" Who cares that the same group was willing to compromise the covert status of a CIA officer? Who cares about the hubris of government officials lying under oath and obstructing Justice?


    [ Parent ]
    Edit (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:51:13 AM EST
    Calling someone a liar is unpatriotic.

    [ Parent ]
    I'll pretend you have not been told this before (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:50:18 AM EST
    Armitage convinced Fitzgerald that he did not know Plame was a covert CIA agent. Thus, the requisite intention to out a covert agent was not present. Accordingly, Armitage, according to Fitzgerald, was not chargeable with violating the IIPA.

    Armitage immediately admitted his disclosure.

    As for the idea that leakers must be working together, this is just stupid. Armitage was not working together to discredit Joe Wilson by disclosing the "fact" that Wilson's wife, who worked at the CIA, got Joe that "boondoggle" of a trip to Niger.

    That plot was hatched at Cheney's behest. Ari Fleischer's testimony on the subject is especially damning of Libby.

    The problem for Libby is he lied about it all. He could have tried the truth absent one little fact, that he and Cheney knew that Plame was covert.

    You see the potential legal crime that started the investigation was the possible knowing outing of a covert CIA agent.

    It was not the attempted discrediting of Wilson.

    But once Bush had said he would fire leakers, irrespective of criminal violation, Libby and tnd Cheney were in trouble, political trouble.

    They KNEW they were behind it. And to save Cheney's political and possibly legal skin, Libby decided to lie and obstruct the investigation.

    This will be my last attempt to treat you seriously in this thread.

    [ Parent ]

    You said yesterday or the day before (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:32:17 AM EST
    that you have never seen ppj intentionally lie or mislead. Read his comment again.

    [ Parent ]
    I don;t think he is lying (1.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:34:33 AM EST
    I think he just does not have the capacity to understand the points.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe. (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:37:42 AM EST
    Personally, I think he does. His pretensions of incapacity are lies, imo.

    [ Parent ]
    edger (1.00 / 3) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:09:53 PM EST
    Your calling me a liar is an obvious attempt to smear and marginalize me as you have stated you want to do with all of those you disagree with.

    That is hardly an attitude that someone who calls themselves a liberal has.

    [ Parent ]

    PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:27:45 PM EST
    I said (pay close attention here) that I think you understand the points made about Libby's conviction and the ramifications of his crimes.

    I also said that, imo, your pretensions of incapacity are lies. Meaning I think you are much smarter than you pretend to be.

    Now, ppj, if you want to argue here that you do not understand something as simple and clear as Libby's conviction and the ramifications of his crimes, be my guest.

    And if you intend to argue here that your pretensions of incapacity are NOT lies, and that you are in fact as incacpcitated as you pretend to be... well... again, be my guest.

    Just give me a minute to make some popcorn and get comfortable, ok?

    This should be quite a show.

    [ Parent ]

    Ok, I'm back. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 01:20:50 PM EST
    Got the popcorn. Got a big jug of cold beer.

    Lemme just adjust the footrest and back on this lazyboy.... ahhhh. there we go.

    Ok...

    You've all heard about him before, but probably never realized just what an amazing, incredible talent this man can be.

    Today we have a special treat! Today we have a really big shew!

    The amazing  >>> PPJ! <<< is going to explain in his own words,to the audience that he either IS as incapacitated as he pretends to be... OR that he is lying when he pretends to be that incapacitated.

    Which is it going to be???? Either way it's beyond that capacity of mere mortals.

    Well.. we're about to get it straight from the horses ass... sorry... horses mouth:

    • Heeeeeeer'es PPJ!!!

    Boot. Yer on! Go boy!

    [ Parent ]

    Slado? (none / 0) (#101)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 01:59:03 PM EST
    Give PPJ a shove will you? The floor is his. The audience is on the edge of their seats. The anticpation is palpable. The air in here is thick with expectations of great revelations.

    Don't let PPJ let the audience down just because he's got stage fright, slado.

    Plant your foot on his backside and boot him out onto the stage.

    PPJ? You have the floor, man. Dazzle your audience.

    [ Parent ]

    You must have blinked ... (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 03:25:18 PM EST
    ... and missed the hook that immediately snatched him from stage quickly followed by a loud gong and Gene, Gene, the Dancing Machine.

    Sorry for the off topic, the devil made me do it.

    [ Parent ]

    edger (1.00 / 1) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 03:27:16 PM EST
    I have, edger.

    I await your reply...

    BTW - Did you read Tom M's 1:03PM comment??

    Oh, semanatics....

    [ Parent ]

    seman::a::tics? (none / 0) (#118)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 03:37:07 PM EST
    Are they like facial tics?

    [ Parent ]
    edger (1.00 / 0) (#181)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 09:28:48 PM EST
    semantics. (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 01:52:21 PM EST

    At first I thought I had made a typo, but watching you try to ignore Tom M's comment it appears that you may have developed one..


    [ Parent ]
    Dazzling.... (5.00 / 0) (#186)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 09:58:07 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    BTD (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:08:03 PM EST
    You seem to have a problem understanding that "understanding" someone's point and being in disagreement with it are two separate things.

    [ Parent ]
    Then (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:13:26 PM EST
    what is your excuse for not addressing my point?

    You persist in nonsense Jim.

    I assume it is not your intention.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD (1.00 / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 03:47:38 PM EST
    So you don't understand that I disagree with your points and have refuted many...

    [ Parent ]
    That you think you have (none / 0) (#127)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 04:03:12 PM EST
    is indicative that you do not understand my post.

    [ Parent ]
    So why no charge? (1.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Slado on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:55:20 AM EST
    If all this is so obvious why wasn't he charged with the crime?

    How many months and dollars where spent attempting to prove what you've stated?  

    If he had any evidence showing what you've stated and he obviously believed then why wasn't Libby tried?   Is he that smart that he covered his tracks?

    You sound like a repulican complaining about Whitewater.


    [ Parent ]

    because libby covered up the crime (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:59:15 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    He was charged (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:01:10 AM EST
    with perjury and obstruction of justice.

    2 counts each.

    Found guilty. On all charges.

    I do not understand your question.

    This post is about Cohen's call for Libby to be pardoned.

    [ Parent ]

    His question (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:04:59 AM EST
    is intentional obtuseness. He knows this stuff.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD (1.00 / 3) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:58:51 AM EST
    This will be my last attempt to treat you seriously in this thread.

    If you are laboring under the belief that I care if you treat me "seriously," please let me remove that burden from your shoulders. I don't.

    Armitage immediately admitted his disclosure.

    Armitage dropped a dime on Mrs. Wilson to Woodward on 6/13 and to Novak on 7/8. He confessed in September.

    That is hardly "immedately."

    As for the idea that leakers must be working together, this is just stupid.

    Glad you agree with my statement...

    Absent proof.....

    Or did you miss it??

    Telling Flesicher on July 7 that Plame worked for the CIA does not in any way prove that he knew she was covert. It just means that he thought the information was "hush  hush." I note that Libby denies telling Flesicher that.

    But, for sake of argument, let's say that it happened.

    July 11: Fleischer, on a presidential trip to Africa, tells two reporters that Wilson's wife works for the CIA.

    July 12: Walter Pincus of the Washington Post says Fleischer tells him that Wilson's wife works at the CIA. Fleischer doesn't recall that.

    If you believe that the law requires knowldge that the agent be covert, which it does, and if you believe that Libby told Fleischer she was covert (hush - hush), then it is obvious that Fleischer should have been prosecuted.

    That he didn't again shows that he did not have proof that she was covert, and was interested only in Libby because he worked for Cheney.

    From your quote in your first comment.

    Still, many Democrats said only a truly independent counsel -- one outside the Justice Department -- could fairly determine whether White House officials leaked the identity of the C.I.A. officer, Valerie Plame, as payback for her husband's criticism of Mr. Bush.

    ''The American people deserve the most independent review possible,'' said Representative John Conyers Jr., Democrat from Michigan.

    Since Fitzgerald was within the DOJ, I wonder how he got appointed if the intent was to please Conyers and his merry band of Demos??

    Finally:

    You see the potential legal crime that started the investigation was the possible knowing outing of a covert CIA agent.

    It was not the attempted discrediting of Wilson.

    I can't understand why you write the above, but I again am pleased that you agree. I wrote:

    The facts are, as Fitzgerald finally revealed, his target was Cheney. And although he knew that Cheney had told Libby, he could not prove a conspiracy to leak a covert agent without Libby's cooperation. Again, he must not have information proving she was covert and understands that when the number of people who knew get put in front of a jury, the charges disappear like the dew in Dixie on a hot June day.

    At the end of the day this started as a Demo driven witch hunt and ended as one.

    Perhaps if Bush doesn't pardon Libby, Thompson will do so on his first day in office.

    [ Parent ]

    Witch hunt? No. More like insect removal. (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:11:29 PM EST
    At the end of the day this started as a Demo driven witch hunt and ended as one.

    Witch hunt? Witch hunt?

    You're comparing the Libby conviction to something on the level of your wot delusions now?

    Two different things. Libby lies were real. Not fantasies. They were obstructions of justice.

    And under American law they are serious crimes. Of which he was convicted. They resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

    Libby is a damned lucky man:

    In a nation that prides itself on living by the rule of law, Mr. Libby should have been tried for treason.
    ...
    The lies promulgated by Mr. Libby led directly to the deaths of 3,185 American soldiers and the wounding of between 47,000 and 53,000 more soldiers. This amounts to between a third and a fourth of the entire active combat force of the United States military.

    The lies promulgated by Mr. Libby led directly to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, the maiming of thousands more, and the creation of a sectarian civil war in that nation whose effects will be generational in impact.
    ...
    Mr. Libby's lies helped get a lot of people killed, helped undermine our ability to defend ourselves against the spread of weapons of mass destruction, and helped midwife a war that cuts us all to the quick with every passing day. If that isn't treason, then treason simply does not exist as an actionable criminal act.



    [ Parent ]
    Edger (1.00 / 2) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:23:40 PM EST
    I again note that using a link to your own post in your own blog is intellectually wrong as it gives the impression that you are quoting another source to prove your position.

    Two different things. Libby lies were real. Not fantasies. They were obstructions of justice.

    First, as you well know, I disagree with the verdict.

    Now. Since the conviction, which you love to reference was about lying about outing a covert agent, how does that have anything to do with the Iraqi battle in the WOT??

    Your position again shows you using something, the conviction, to try and prove a separate point. They aren't connected.

    [ Parent ]

    You disagree that Libby lied? (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:47:00 PM EST
    Hoo boy. I find no one thinks that.

    The argument now is the sentence is too harsh and Scooter deserves a pardon, or in the words of Ajami, you can't leave a fallen comrade behind.

    The new new defense - Scooter didn't lie!

    Ha ha! this time you pinned the tail on yourself Jim.

    [ Parent ]

    Next talking point: (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by manys on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 03:14:07 PM EST
    Libby is a lot like Jesus Christ.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD (1.00 / 0) (#187)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 09:58:54 PM EST
    The argument now is the sentence is too harsh and Scooter deserves a pardon, or in the words of Ajami, you can't leave a fallen comrade behind.

    No, that is what you would like the argument to be.

    [ Parent ]

    Wow. Maybe BTD was right. :-) (5.00 / 0) (#188)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:04:26 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    follow the link (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 03:42:51 PM EST
    I again note that using a link to your own post in your own blog is intellectually wrong as it gives the impression that you are quoting another source to prove your position.
    If you'd bother to follow the link you'd find links to actual sources.

    You constantly link to powerlie and other blogs you claim support your aspersions. Yet another case where you castigate another for doing what you do.

    p.s. In TL's blogiversary comments you said "When I started blogging"
    You don't blog. You comment on a blog. It's the equivalent of saying you write for a newspaper when all you do is send letters to the editor.

    [ Parent ]

    Sailor (1.00 / 0) (#189)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:14:59 PM EST
    Sailor... glad to know you read my comment.. But I think you knew what I meant, so outside of being nasty, what's your point??

    And are you 100% correct? I don't know, nor do I really care.... but...

    Anyone? If you make a comment on a post within a blog, are you blogging?? Aren't  the commentators important in blogs that accept comments? And is a blog that doesn't accept comments a blog in the same sense as one that does? Inquiring minds want to know... This is almost as important as whether it is Godwins or Goodwins law....

    But don't answer here or Sailor will accuse me of being off topic answering his off topic attack.

    And yes, I use links. But not in such a way that I make people think that the link is a "separate" source. That's the differece.

    It would be honest if it was saud like:

    As I said in my blog...

    The difference is in the expectation given the reader that the link is to a separarte source if the source is not revealed.

    [ Parent ]

    Now that's a lie (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:18:22 PM EST
    At the end of the day this started as a Demo driven witch hunt and ended as one.
    Everyone involved, from ashcroft to comey to fitz to walton are all bush appointees.

    [ Parent ]
    Sailor (1.00 / 2) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:24:44 PM EST
    The attacks and demands came from Demos..

    And your point is??

    [ Parent ]

    I stated my point (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:32:17 PM EST
    EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THE REPORTING OF THE CRIME, THE INVESTIGATION OF THE CRIME AND THE PROSECUTION OF THE CRIME WERE REPUBS.

    AND ALMOST ALL WERE APPOINTED BY BUSH.

    The dems were powerless and no ability to influence the process.

    [ Parent ]

    Sailor pinned you a tail too (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:39:41 PM EST
    You should go back to arguing Iraq.

    If you were arguing my side, I would ask you to retire from the field.

    [ Parent ]

    plame testified under oath that she was covert (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by conchita on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:18:36 AM EST
    just because libby lied to the grand jury does not mean that plame also lied.  it is one simple reason why libby cannot be pardoned - it is against the law to lie under oath and we cannot afford to have a known liar pardoned, particularly one who obstructed justice.  there is a standard here and it must apply to everyone equally.

    [ Parent ]
    To be clear (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:29:06 AM EST
    Plame testifed before Congress under oath.

    [ Parent ]
    yes, thank you (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by conchita on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 11:39:56 AM EST
    i considered including that, but just as i know that jim knows this already, he also knows that she testified before congress under oath.  imo, it is reflective of the absurdity of his position that my comment and your clarification even have to be written.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD (1.00 / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:13:28 PM EST
    Read my reply to conchita.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:16:27 PM EST
    Your argument is Gore's argument that there was no "recognized legal authority." how pathetic for you.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD - Not at all. (1.00 / 2) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:29:20 PM EST
    My point is that the law hasn't been defined, not that there is no legal authority, controlling or otherwise.

    But good try.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for reminding me (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:37:53 PM EST
    Gore said "No controlling legal authority."

    Just liek Gore. Good job Jim.

    [ Parent ]

    from Brad DeLong (5.00 / 4) (#83)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 01:07:15 PM EST
    IRT debating
    We want an "honest conservative"--a conservative intellectual adversary we can respect, who is also intelligent. But their first move is to define a "conservative" as a public supporter of the Bush regime and its deeds. That means, I think, that they are searching the empty set.


    [ Parent ]
    Sailor (1.00 / 1) (#156)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 06:13:41 PM EST
    People are always searching for their ideals...

    That those on the Left have problems finding a conservative they can have a discussion with is no different than those on the Right having trouble finding one on the Left.

    Why does both groups think themselves unique??

    [ Parent ]

    A conservative (5.00 / 0) (#159)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 06:19:54 PM EST
    who can conduct a reasonable logical fact respecting discussion with a liberal is very common.

    A right wing extremist (read 'wingnut') who tries to pose as a conservative but cannot agree on the value or meaning of fact and reasoning cannot conduct a reasonable discussion with anyone, liberal or conservative.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD (1.00 / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 06:11:03 PM EST
    And why do you repeat the point??

    I note again that my comment is that "service" hasn't been defined.

    That has nothing to do with legal authority. Lack of  or plenty of.

    Do you not undersrand MY point??

    I mean you being so big on points, understanding, etc....

    [ Parent ]

    conchita (1.00 / 3) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:12:51 PM EST
    The fact that she nay believe she was "covert" has nothing to do with if she was, in fact, actually covert.

    The CIA claims that she met the requirement for "service" outside the US with in the past five years by some very short term trips. The question as to the legal definition of "service" has not be defined.

    [ Parent ]

    But the CIA (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:15:27 PM EST
    who knows more about than you or I, says she was covert.

    Does that count for anything for you? Of course not.

    Look Jim, here is your best argument - Libby did not know she was covert.

    Try that one on for size.

    [ Parent ]

    He is thread crapping again. (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:16:47 PM EST
    He's not here for any kind of understanding.

    [ Parent ]
    I think he is an easy foil today (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:30:07 PM EST
    I think we have all pinned at least 3 tails on him.

    He has served a purpose.

    [ Parent ]

    Insects serve a purpose too. (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:35:15 PM EST
    To pest control companies.

    [ Parent ]
    Funny (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:42:37 PM EST
    Tales of blind men and elephants, sounds about right. What a dumba$$.

    [ Parent ]
    Squeaky (1.00 / 1) (#157)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 06:15:26 PM EST
    Ah, squeaky...

    Should I provide my favorite quote where you admit to not having to have "proof" to smear people??

    [ Parent ]

    Smear People? (5.00 / 0) (#180)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 09:28:17 PM EST
    No you mean the one that had to do with saying disparaging things about your man, Karl Rove, It had to do with not giving Rove the benefit of the doubt regarding the rumor that he was a direct descendent of a Nazi Politician. His methods are right out of the Nazi playbook.

    [ Parent ]
    What is it? (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 03:58:22 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Allowed us to (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 04:01:07 PM EST
    thoroughly debunk the nonsense from the Right on this issue.

    It is much easier when they are presented so poorly.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD (1.00 / 1) (#190)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 10:28:01 PM EST
    So, what is your complaint??

    I never complain that a poker opponent is playing badly. I just let him play.

    You

    doth protest too much, methinks..

    Apologies to Wm S. methinks.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD (1.00 / 2) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 01:41:02 PM EST
    I am always happy to serve.

    There is never any doubt in my mind of the wit and wisdom found in your widely divergent post.

    And then I read them...

    ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    Edger (1.00 / 2) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:30:33 PM EST
    According to you, the purpose of this blog is to agree with Edger.

    I don't thing that is correct.

    [ Parent ]

    Nope. (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:32:32 PM EST
    The purpose of this blog, imo, is for people to learn and agree with reality.

    [ Parent ]
    Edger (1.00 / 1) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 01:35:22 PM EST
    Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

    [ Parent ]
    I am so. (none / 0) (#95)
    by Edger on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 01:37:51 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The purpose (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:42:05 PM EST
    isnt to except payment in order to disperse moronic talking points gleaned from the Heritage Foundation and the Motherhood and Apple Pie Institute, either.

    [ Parent ]
    jondee - Glass houses and all that... (1.00 / 1) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 01:37:47 PM EST
    isnt to except payment in order to disperse moronic talking points

    ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    jim, even michael hayden confirmed with congress (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by conchita on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:24:24 PM EST
    that she was covert when she was exposed, she was working undercover, and any disclosure of her employment status with the agency was prohibited by executive order.  why do you persist on going down this path that was debunked months ago?

    [ Parent ]
    conchita (1.00 / 2) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:36:46 PM EST
    Don't confuse the issue.

    The CIA waited months and months to release any information as to her travel. When they did, it turns out it was very short term travel.

    The question is, what does the word "service" mean in the context of the law.

    i.e. If I say I was in the military and I served in a squadron that doesn't mean I was there TAD for a week.

    As for Hayden, he can be as wrong as Mrs. Wilson on this issue. Given that the given information is accurate and complete, he doesn't know either.

    [ Parent ]

    so i guess this makes you THE authority? (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by conchita on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 12:40:38 PM EST