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Chavez closes nation's one private TV station

Venezuala's President Hugo Chavez has closed his country's one private television station because it continually was too critical for him.

This led to protests in Caracas:

Venezuelan police fired tear gas and plastic bullets Monday into a crowd of thousands protesting a decision by President Hugo Chavez that forced a television station critical of his leftist government off the air.

Police fired toward the crowd of up to 5,000 protesters from a raised highway, and protesters fled amid clouds of tear gas. They later regrouped in Caracas' Plaza Brion chanting "freedom!" Some tossed rocks and bottles at police, prompting authorities to scatter demonstrators by firing more gas.

Not everybody is opposed:

Thousands of government supporters reveled in the streets as they watched the midnight changeover on large TV screens, seeing RCTV's signal go black and then be replaced by a TVES logo. Others launched fireworks and danced in the streets.

Every President has his or her detractors.

For those of us who quit buying gas from price gouging U.S. suppliers making record profits as prices shoot up, we're in a quandry: Do we support a country that denies free speech by buying their gasoline?

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  • Display: Sort:
    A little simplistic... (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Babson on Tue May 29, 2007 at 09:27:20 AM EST
    Technically, Chavez did not shut down RCTV, the government declined to renew the station's broadcast licence.

    RCTV has been one of the most consistent opponents of the Chavez government and in the 2002 coup attempt it was one of the main protaganists in terms of organising and executing aspects of the coup. RCTV reported (falsely) that Chavez supporters had fired at demonstrators which allowed disgruntled generals to walk away from the government.

    I'm surprised it wasn't immediately shut down after the 2004 recall, not sure I would have had the same patience.

    I don't necessarily condone the decision, but the situation is certainly more complex than forcing "...a television station critical of his leftist government off the air".

    If CBS were continually promoting the armed overthrow of the Bush government - what do you thihk would happen?

    Babosn (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 29, 2007 at 09:40:38 AM EST
    I'm surprised it wasn't immediately shut down after the 2004 recall, not sure I would have had the same patience.

    I don't necessarily condone the decision

    Freedom if speech is only for those who agree with you?

    Right???

    The station has been shut down. Look. You either condemn it, or you do not. There is no middle position.

    Parent

    but, but ... (none / 0) (#10)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 09:54:39 AM EST
    ... ppj is always lecturing us that freedom of speech has its limits, that bumper stickers are cause for ejection from public events, that being corraled into chainlink camps away from public events is OK, that propaganda is good, that the news media are traitors for reporting the truth about the war ... I think he's just jealous that bush didn't think of it first.

    Parent
    Dishonest Response ppj (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:21:42 AM EST

    If CBS were continually promoting the armed overthrow of the Bush government - what do you thihk would happen?

    Answer the question ppj.

    Oh, there is a line. Glad that you agree.

    Parent

    Pfft (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 09:40:54 AM EST
    I don't necessarily condone the decision, but the situation is certainly more complex than forcing "...a television station critical of his leftist government off the air".

    No it isn't. It is that simple. That lies are stated in support of the oppression is of course natural. That you repeat them may be natural too. I do not know. But the idea that the station promoted an armed uprising is ridiculous.

    Chavez now claims GloboTV is promoting assasination of him. Another lie.

    If CBS were continually promoting the armed overthrow of the Bush government - what do you thihk would happen?

    How about just the ovethrow? I take it you consider your self a liberal right? You justifications for the unacceptable make me shudder.

    Parent

    it is not that simple, (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:06:27 PM EST
    to get a better understanding of what this TV station did you can watch "The Revolution will not be televised"

    here

    Nick Fraser, Storyville Series Editor for BBC - UK, on his Commissioner's Comment over The Revolution Will Not Be Televised said:

    The result is a brilliant piece of journalism but it is also an astonishing portrait of the balance of forces in Venezuela. On one side stand the Versace wearing classes, rich from many decades of oil revenues, and on the other the poor in their barrios and those within the armed forces who support Chávez. The media, who ought to be merely reporting the conflict splitting the country down the middle, are in fact adjuncts of the coup-makers. Watch this film and you may truly for the first time in your life understand the term media bias.

    Big Tent Democrat said:

    But the idea that the station promoted an armed uprising is ridiculous

    After reviewing the evidence, the idea that the station did not promote an armed uprising is rediculous.

    Parent

    What evidence is that? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:24:44 PM EST
    Could you link to something that actually cites what was said that supported an armed uprising?

    Honestly, these apologias for fascist behavior are disgusting.

    Parent

    Good point (none / 0) (#13)
    by eric on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:34:48 AM EST
    If CBS were continually promoting the armed overthrow of the Bush government - what do you thihk would happen?

    Exactly.  CBS won't even show ads that are critical of Bush.

    Parent

    CBS poor actions (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:36:11 AM EST
    or selfcensorship because of fear of retribution from the Bush Administration is no excuse for Chavez's oppression.

    This is ridiculous.

    Parent

    Not an excuse (none / 0) (#16)
    by eric on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:38:47 AM EST
    I don't think it is an excuse.  It is just an interesting commentary.

    Parent
    Not an excuse? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:59:29 AM EST
    Certainly not a condemnation either ay?

    Parent
    CBS doesn't crticise Bush? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Slado on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:32:06 AM EST
    CBS put forth a forged document as evidence that Bush avoided national guard service.  If putting forth fake news to criticize the sitting president in an election year isn't crticism I don't know what is.

    Stop ingnoring real bad governments and obbsessing on Bush.  

    Bush isn't what liberals want in a president.  I understand that but he will be gone in 2 years and a dem could sit in his place.

    Is that going to happen to Chavez?  You know the answer.

    Chavez like Putin and several other governments around the world is trying to run a quasi democracy that continualy elects him and that some liberals are willing to look the other way because they like what he has to say about Bush is appalling.  


    Parent

    bad analogy (none / 0) (#44)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:38:54 PM EST
    saying cbs was responsible for the actions of a producer is like saying all American soldiers are murderers and rapists because a few of them have done so. Why do you hate our troops?

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#86)
    by Slado on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:17:58 PM EST
    A claim was made that CBS would never criticize the president and I pointed out an instance when they had.

    If the statement was true then the brass at CBS would have pulled the story then not lamely defended it after it had obviously been shown that it wasnt' true and then even more lamely issued a weak apology after a even more lame investigation.

    But I digress.

    It was only one of several examples of the press rightly trying to crtiticize the president and I only used an extreme example to show what a ridiculous statement had been made about CBS.

    The press is critical of our president.  Maybe not as much as some would like but to deny so is silly.

    Parent

    Nonsequitor (none / 0) (#90)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:13:09 PM EST
    Nonsequitor (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:39:42 PM EST
    Yes, he was in the guard (none / 0) (#93)
    by eric on Wed May 30, 2007 at 12:46:27 AM EST
    CBS put forth a forged document as evidence that Bush avoided national guard service.

    No, as I understand it, Bush joined the national gaurd to avoid service in Vietnam.  The story was true.  Regardless of the questionable document, the facts are clear.

    Did Bush go to Vietnam?  No.  Why?  He was in the guard.  

    Bah.

    Parent

    Good post (none / 0) (#1)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:45:21 AM EST


    It's time to Freedomize! (none / 0) (#2)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:36:16 AM EST
    Send in the Marines. Let's roll!

    Any words on what Chavez did? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:58:42 AM EST
    Or are you cool with it?

    Parent
    Left wing tyranny or anti-imperialism? (none / 0) (#3)
    by eric on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:42:36 AM EST
    I suppose that Chavez's excuse is that the private channel was just right wing propaganda.  I still don't really care for this type of thing.  But corporate capitalists are very powerful and would do the same thing to public or left-wing privates.  It's all about extremes.

    It's too bad that he couldn't develop more of a social-democracy there.  But, there is oil involved...

    You suppose? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:57:54 AM EST
    I suppose that Chavez's excuse is that the private channel was just right wing propaganda.

    Actually, the Chavez government said:

    The socialist president accused the network of helping to incite a failed coup in 2002, violating broadcast laws and ''poisoning'' Venezuelans with programming that promoted capitalism.

    But everbody does it:

    But corporate capitalists are very powerful and would do the same thing to public or left-wing privates.

    Is it NOT condemnable WHOMEVER does it? BTW, this is what Chavez replaced it with:

    The new public channel, TVES, launched its transmissions early Monday with artists singing pro-Chavez music, then carried an exercise program and a talk show, interspersed with government ads proclaiming, ''Now Venezuela belongs to everyone.''

    Venezuela belongs to everyone who supports Chavez apparently.

    But everyone does it so what's the big deal?

    Sheesh.

    Parent

    hmm (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by liljamie on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:47:13 AM EST
    Actually, the Chavez government said:

        The socialist president accused the network of helping to incite a failed coup in 2002, violating broadcast laws and ''poisoning'' Venezuelans with programming that promoted capitalism

    .

    i have no actual opinion on chavez (im not informed enough to really decide anyything) but after seeing that "the revolution will not be televised" documentary, i do have to admit that that television station seems to have been instrumental in the coup attempt against his government.

    that said, i do think this is sort of the 'classic' dicatorial" oppression of dissent; the telling part is that the license wasnt given to sa y another channel, but to a new propaganda outlet.

    i do want to ask to what extent the freedom of speech extends to broadcasting (cause i really dont know), i mean does any station have a 'right' to broadcast? should the government support and promote private broadcasting?

    Parent

    How so? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:27:14 PM EST
    By breeding discontent with chavez? Seriously, this is a freaking joke.

    You now how many newspapers and media outlets can be shut down on this nonsense.

    Liberals, either be liberals or stop calling yourselves ones.

    If you believe in Marxism-Lenism then say so.

    The comments here could come from Lenin.

    Parent

    Sounds Terrible (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:28:59 AM EST
    And incredibly boring. Not that tv is so great here, although I gave up watching years ago and am not up to speed with tv now.

    Should there be a line?

    In America if someone so much as utters something about taking out the president they are sent to jail.

    Parent

    Assasination (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:28:04 PM EST
    Find the words uttered.

    Why this kneejerk defense of the indefensible?

    Parent

    No Defense (none / 0) (#55)
    by squeaky on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:58:42 PM EST
    I am no fan of TV and assume that the station was

    Separately, Information Minister Willian Lara accused the private Globovision TV channel of encouraging an attempt on Chavez's life by broadcasting the chorus of a salsa tune -- ''Have faith, this doesn't end here'' -- along with footage of the 1981 assassination attempt against Pope John Paul II in St. Peter's Square.

    ''They incite the assassination of Venezuela's president,'' he said.

    Globovision director Alberto Federico Ravell denied any wrongdoing, calling the allegations ''ridiculous.'' He also accused U.S. network CNN of coverage biased against Chavez.

    Regardless of the above allegations, which I do not know anything about, It seems like Chavez made a big mistake. If laws were broken they should be addressed in a case by case manner. Shutting down the whole network makes Chavez look afraid and weak.

    I do not know why anyone would watch commercial TV anyway. Personally this sort of thing would be no loss, although in principal I would scream bloody murder, even if it was Faux news that was shut down by our Gov.

    Parent

    If your cause is just, (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Tue May 29, 2007 at 09:19:15 AM EST
    the critics don't matter.  Silencing voices is never the answer.

    Shame on Chavez...I used to think he was one of the good guys, looks like I was fooled by just another tyrant.

    Tell me this is sarcasm (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:34:48 AM EST
    A BushBot could write this.

    good work DA! (none / 0) (#54)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:37:11 PM EST
    Just stopped by (none / 0) (#15)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:37:29 AM EST
    and noticed LNILR's (and TL's) propagandous lie. How long would Fuks news last if they openly advocated overthrowing Bush? And do you folks get your news primarily from NBC news? ALL cable and satellite channels are availabel to the Venezuelan public (and your precious RCTV), which the government is trying to IMPROVE. You are the victims of more US propaganda. No surprise at this site.

    You should  vet your "facts" before you deceive people.

    Are you nuts? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:58:55 AM EST
    They closed down the one privately owned over the air station, the one with the most reach.

    Sheesh.

    Parent

    Nowhere in there is a defense of the shut-down (none / 0) (#22)
    by roy on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:04:16 AM EST
    I see claims that A) maybe America would do the something similar, and B) the stifling is dissent is not complete.

    How does any of that make it right?

    And, tangentially, do you know how widely poor Venezuelans have access to cable and satellite TV?  According to this random web page, about who's credibility I make no claims, only 20% of households have cable, and 5.5% satellite.  If only the relatively wealthy -- who already tend to oppose Chavez -- have access to news which is critical of him, then point B) is even less relevant.

    Parent

    I overreach (none / 0) (#23)
    by roy on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:18:40 AM EST
    There are still private radio stations and newspapers, some of which don't support Chavez.  I'm not optimistic about that remaining the case, since they're a function of capitalism and Chavez means to stamp capitalism out, but they're still there now.

    Parent
    Hah! (none / 0) (#28)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:51:09 AM EST
    Che, I wonder how you would feel if the U.S. government shut down CNN to "improve" it. Actually, I don't wonder. I know how you'd feel. Which is why I'm genuinely curious to know why you think it's okay for Chavez to do it, but not for Bush or Clinton or, well, any American government.

    What's the difference between the two? Are you actually saying that it would be okay to shut down Fox news if it advocated overthrowing the president?

    Parent

    Gabe, I wonder how you would feel ... (none / 0) (#56)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:37:41 PM EST
    Two wrongs, sailor... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:44:25 PM EST
    I'm not sure what your point is.

    Let's assume that the US intentionally targetted reporters, as you seem to believe. Are you saying that it is therefore okay for Chavez to do the same?

    Or is it wrong in both cases? Or are you really far-out and think it's okay when Chavez does it, but not when anyone else does?

    Parent

    the US has intentionally targetd reporters and (none / 0) (#61)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:07:23 PM EST
    TV stations. And some here have thought that was a good idea.

    I was pointing out that silencing dissent is as American as apple pie and when folks clutch their pearls when chavez does it it sounds hypocritical to me.

    Of course it's wrong whenever it's done, but it is not unique to chavez, if that is indeed what chavez has done.

    Parent

    If (none / 0) (#17)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:55:50 AM EST
     a  broadcaster advocated "overthrowing" Bush by  constitutional means  (electorally or by impeachment and conviction) it would be blatantly unconstitutional for the government  to act against it for that reason.

     That people here actually defend what Chavez has done is not surprising. If it was a right-wing government which shut down a broadcaster and claimed it was "saving  lives" or "improving" communications these same folks would be foaming at the mouth with outrage and no doubt hypothesizing that the CIA was behind it.

      It's this type of blind devotion to ideology with no respect for higher pronciples that is so frightening abiout much of what gets written here. The justification of naked repression when it is done by those with similar views is still the justification of naked repression.

      Too many people here ARE for repression-- we saw it last week with the diatribes against Christian schools and we see it again here. People who advocate or justify  repression of opposing views are the foot soldiers of authoritarianism and the enmeies of freedom.

     

    Written at this community (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:58:05 AM EST
    A lot of things get written here.

    I ask for more precision in your rebuke.

    The post itself condemns Chavez as do I.

    You mean some commenters, at least in this instance.

    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#21)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:02:24 AM EST
     I meant some of the commentators not you. I understand you to agree with me on this.

    Parent
    How many times (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:52:18 AM EST
    has the U.S had the exercise of it's sovereignty, including the results of it's elections effectivly overturned as the result of a much more powerful nation's direct or covert military intervention, or through the less direct means of economic sabotage, "destablization", or the continual threat of all three?

    I have to laugh at the pompous, bourgeouis conceit of folks in our "beacon of freedom" with it's elections that hinge on brand name recognition and $ 50 mil warchests, compulsivly redirecting our attention to what Hugo Chavez does.

    Parent

    Families (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:55:28 AM EST
    foraging for food in garbage dumps in Venezuala isnt news; Chavez outraging our sense of "freedom" (especially close to Memorial Day!), is.

    Parent
    Btw (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:01:05 PM EST
    A "diatribe" and "advocating repression" aren't the same thing, so give it up you insufferably self righteous clown.

    Parent
    Say what now? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:23:45 PM EST
    I have to laugh at the pompous, bourgeouis conceit of folks in our "beacon of freedom" with it's elections that hinge on brand name recognition and $ 50 mil warchests, compulsivly redirecting our attention to what Hugo Chavez does.

    This is especially rich considering that only in someone's deranged fantasies could it be claimed that the posters here at TalkLeft "compulsively" redirect the conversation to Hugo Chavez.

    I'm also amused by your discovery of "pompous, bourgeois" conceit, just before you change the subject to Venezuelans having to dig through garbage. Is there no reason we cannot discuss both problems: starvation conditions and the shutting down of dissenting speech?

    Parent

    whose deflecting anything? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:10:13 PM EST
      Other than YOU?

      The topic here is Chavez's decision to shutdown a television outlet that he considers a dissenting voice.

      Opinions on THAT should be reached independcently of any views about our media and politics. We could have  a totalitarian government that rigidly controlled all expression or we could be a perfectly open society with absolute free expression and it should not change your view of Chavez's action.

      The attempt to argue that the "MSM" is not as vigilant in exposing government malfeasance as it should be justifies police-state tactics by a regime elsewhere is foolish.

      The argument that because the USA has exerted influence on foreign governments to undermine sovereignty and the expression of the popular will in other nations it is acceptable for their governments  to DO PRECISELY THAT if the government is not friendly to the USA is beyond foolish.

      Here's a thought. It's wrong for any side to do it-- AND-- when one regime is oppressive it makes it far more likely that the next will be repressive too. If one considers, the possibility that the NEXT regime might just be a "puppet" it probably won't be  helpful to the cause of freedom  for that government to inherit a society with a closed press and little existing outlet for dissent. Doing this today will make it easier for a right-wing regime to be oppressive in the future.

      Freedom is good. Enemeies of freedom are bad and they feed off of each other -- usually at the expense of those who want to be free. The elites change with some frequency but the tactics much less so.

       If you truly want "free and sovereign" people you must support that without different standards for regimes with ideologies you like. Otherwise you are are being dishonest (or fooling yourself) and actually place  ideology above freedom and liberty.

    No Line? (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:18:11 PM EST
    Child porn ok with you? 24/7 in color? Snuf films?

    Abstract thinking has its limits. Context is not irrelevant.

    Parent

    and the context (none / 0) (#38)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:25:02 PM EST
    in Venezuela is analgous to statutes against child porn or snuff films how?

       If you cannot distinguish between silencing political opposition through executive acts of media censorship and  representative governments enacting legislation outlawing activities exploiting and/or killing the weak and helpless, I don't know what to tell you.

      I would suggest that telling others they need to understand "context" is something from which you should refrain until you buy a clue.

    Parent

    Laws (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:37:34 PM EST
    Do you think that child porn that uses no children but virtual is ok then? Have you seen the show on how to build a nuclear bomb, shoe bomb or any of the various ways to protect yourself against bad guys.

    Are there laws that draw the line?  Do you believe that is based on abstract principals or actual context?

    I do not have personal experience regarding the latest Chavez power play, and neither do you.

    Some were cheering and some were booing. YOu on the other hand believe that you are arguing for abstract principals while making believe that those principals are not grounded in your own miserable context.

    What do you think you are a computer?

    Hilarious.

    Parent

    some were cheering? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:52:09 PM EST
     hmmm

      Some here would no doubt cheer if a right-wing President were elected and shut down any organizations that published opposing views criticizing his policies.

      Would you then rationalize such action because some people thought those outlets were "enemies of America?" Or, would the "booers" not include you?

      Lines must be drawn,  but when the lines are drawn at repressing opposing political beliefs by a dictator acting by decree, one would hope that people who might disagree about the "virtual porn" issue would still stand in on the side against naked political repression.

      It may just be your problems with language, but as far as I can tell you you favor "virtual child porn" here but oppose dissenting  political expression in Venezuela -- that's one twisted  line you've got going  there.

     

    Parent

    Heres (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:17:30 PM EST
    another thought: if Venezuala played better ball, paricularly with it's oil, it would be relegated to the kind of human rights media-oblivian reserved for China, Saudi Arabia, Mynamar etc

    so? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:26:59 PM EST
      If you are saying not enough people get outraged about repression elsewhere, I'll agree.

      If you are trying to suggest that because the world is not perfect its OK for it to become worse, you've lost any sense.

    Parent

    As if! (none / 0) (#42)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:31:34 PM EST
    More fantasy: the media ignores the human rights violations of China, Saudi Arabia, Myanmar, etc.

    In fact, there are three articles in today's New York Times alone which mention China's human rights problem.

    Also in the NY Times, Saudi Arabia's human rights problems are mentioned in this article as well as receiving an indepth treatment by Thomas Friedman last month.

    Myanmar is also listed for its human rights abuses in the linked article.

    And that's just in the NY Times, alone, and covering a period of only a few months.

    "Media-oblivion" indeed.

    Parent

    And don't forget (none / 0) (#48)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:52:50 PM EST
    That Venezuela is a democracy that holds free and fair elections.

    This whole story is a complete non-story being whipped up for propaganda purposes.

    A TV station BROKE THE LAW,(That law guarantees freedom of expression without censorship but prohibits, as it should, transmission of messages illegally promoting, apologizing for, or inciting disobedience to the law that includes enlisting public support for the overthrow of a democratically elected president and his government.)
     calling for a coup against a democratically elected leader, and the government decides not to renew the licence for the TV station.

    The highest court in the land, (democratically elected by the National Assembly) agrees that this a legal and constitutionally supported course of action.

    What did this TV station do?

    On the afternoon of April 11, 2002, RCTV interrupted a speech made by Chávez to broadcast a shooting that was taking place at an opposition march. Over the next couple of days, the private networks supported Pedro Carmona's interim government, which dissolved the National Assembly and suspended the Constitution. As the coup began to collapse due to popular pressure to restore the democratically elected president to power, RCTV conducted a news blackout.
    (Wikipedia)

    Why does the US oppose this democratically elected leader?

    But wait, there's more, a lot more. Palast reports a US Energy Department expert believes Venezuela holds 90% of the world's super-heavy tar oil reserves - an estimated total of 1,360,000,000,000 (1.36 trillion) barrels. Let me repeat that - 1.36 trillion barrels. That alone is more oil than Hubbert believed 50 years ago lay under the entire planet.

    Again, back to the key issue. Whatever the true highest estimate of reserves is from all varieties of oil, those reserves are only available at a price. If it ever gets too low again, which looks unlikely, those heavy reserves and tar sands oil will again go off the charts and be uncounted. However, with today's heavy demand and the likelihood of it continuing to grow in the future, the price of oil may continue to rise and all reserves from all sources may be needed and used to supply the market.

    So with a report like this coming from an apparent credible source (according to Palast) in the US Energy Department, it takes little imagination for VHeadline readers to understand more than ever that Venezuela is likely viewed by any US administration as the world's most important source of future oil supply. And to readers who understand US imperial intentions, it takes even less insight to realize the Bush administration intends to go all out to get its hands on it even if it takes a war to do it. The US goal isn't access to the oil. It's control of the supply and its price, what countries get it and how much and which ones don't, what companies profit from it, and overall how this ocean of oil can be used as a strategic resource and weapon. Beyond question, the stakes are enormous, and the battle lines are now drawn more clearly than ever.



    Parent

    Wow! (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:21:45 PM EST
    Just wow! Supporting suppression of speech. Please never complain about Bush again.

    What did this TV station do?

    On the afternoon of April 11, 2002, RCTV interrupted a speech made by Chávez to broadcast a shooting that was taking place at an opposition march

    God forbid! Interrupting the speech! Excuse me, why in blazes did they have to cover the speech at all. Are you saying you can not oppose Chavez and have free speech rights? Some effing liberal you are. Disgraceful.

    Over the next couple of days, the private networks supported Pedro Carmona's interim government, which dissolved the National Assembly and suspended the Constitution. As the coup began to collapse due to popular pressure to restore the democratically elected president to power, RCTV conducted a news blackout.

    Suppose this is true. Is it an exercise of FREE SPEECH? Or is it only free speech for views you support?

    You people are a disgrace.

    Parent

    just hold your horses (none / 0) (#58)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:47:46 PM EST
    Firstly, I am not an 'effing liberal' or a liberal at all. For transparency I am not a conservative either.

    Secondly, I am not a supporter of fascism as you intimated earlier.

    Do you know why the TV station interupted the Chavez speech?

    Do you know what they showed instead?

    Do you know why they showed what they did?

    Do you know what the Venezualan Constitution says about what they did?

    Are you aware of the rights and responsabilities in regard to TV stations and free speech in Venezuela?

    Are you aware that the TV station owners could have been arrested for what they did, but Chavez publicly announced that he would not do so?

    Are you aware of the NY Times biased reporting regarding Chavez, and would you rely on them to report on any event involving him with impartiality?

    Do you support instigators and supporters of a coup over a democratically elected president of a sovereign nation?

    Is the president and his government allowed to follow the law of his country or not?

    If Chavez was against the free speech of this TV station, why did he wait 5 years to 'close it down'? If it really upset him, why did he allow it access to the public airwaves for 5 more years and then, and only then decide not to automatically renew its licence?

    Again, I point you towards the documentary "The Revolution will not be Televised", and also towards the words of fair.org

    The RCTV case is not about censorship of political opinion. It is about the government, through a flawed process, declining to renew a broadcast license to a company that would not get a license in other democracies, including the United States. In fact, it is frankly amazing that this company has been allowed to broadcast for 5 years after the coup, and that the Chávez government waited until its license expired to end its use of the public airwaves.

    If you can find an instance where I am

    saying you can not oppose Chavez and have free speech rights?

    I will retract it, all I am saying is that the TV station broke the law, after participating in illegal activities, and its licence was not renewed due to these activities.

    The NY Times is publishing propaganda and I am trying to present the other side, a side populated with intimate knowledge of the situation, and a side that was not represented in the NY Times piece.

    How this makes me a fascist and a subject to be ridiculed, I fail to understand, but then I support your free speech to do so, despite what you believe.

    Parent

    This is interesting (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:00:45 PM EST
    The RCTV case is not about censorship of political opinion. It is about the government, through a flawed process, declining to renew a broadcast license to a company that would not get a license in other democracies, including the United States.
    Could you elaborate on that? Is there some support for that contention?

    Parent
    sorry if it is unclear (none / 0) (#63)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:31:31 PM EST
    that is a quote from the fair.org article I linked to.

    Parent
    Yes the article (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:46:49 PM EST
    does state that, though it doesn't support the statement, which makes me wonder how true the statement is.

    Regardless, whether any other Democracy - the US included - would deny them license does not make Chavez' denying it any more defensible.

    As an aside, I've always had this weird thought that the "airwaves" naturally exist just like the air we breath and the sun that warms our shoulders, and that they should not be licensed or controlled by the gvt at all, but that's just me I'm sure...

    Parent

    Oh for crissakes (none / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:05:16 PM EST
    To take this to its absurd extremes, are you familiar with the Nuremberg Laws?

    Free speech is a pretty universal concept.

    If you are saying Chavez's actions are "legal" under Venezuelan law, which is entirely likely, it does not make it any less oppression and censorship of political speech.

    Who care why they broke away from his speech. Are you seriously arguing it is ok for Chavez to dictate coverage?

    You may not a lot about Venezuelan law, I have no idea, but the concept of liberty and free speech seems to have entirely escaped you.

    Parent

    BTD, (none / 0) (#64)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:41:54 PM EST
    If you are saying Chavez's actions are "legal" under Venezuelan law, which is entirely likely, it does not make it any less oppression and censorship of political speech.

    Please provide evidence that this was a unilateral decision by Chavez, and also how it is oppression and censorship of political speech.

    Who care why they broke away from his speech. Are you seriously arguing it is ok for Chavez to dictate coverage?

    Where have I said that it is O.K. for Chavez to dictate coverage?  

    I care very much why they broke away from his speech, (hint: it was to break the law and the Constitution)

    There is one side who are for oppression and censorship of political speech, and that is not Chavez, but then you would have to review the available evidence, instead of resorting to illogical attacks on me.

    Parent

    Ha! (none / 0) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:46:56 PM EST
    Oh it was not a uniltateral decision? There was some "nuetral" panel that decided it?

    Are you nuts?

    Did you see what Chavez said today?

    Stop it. If you support oppression, that's your business. But don't fob it off on me.


    Parent

    gollo (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:08:21 PM EST
    Are you aware of the rights and responsabilities in regard to TV stations and free speech in Venezuela?

    Then you agree that Military Tribunals is all we need give those in Gitmo.

    There is one side who are for oppression and censorship of political speech, and that is not Chavez, but then you would have to review the available evidence, instead of resorting to illogical attacks on me.

    Uh, are you saying the opposition shut the station down? I guess I missed where Chavez was demanding it  be left alone....

    BTW - Do you know the difference between Chavez's Venezuela and Eastern Europe?

    There are no communists left in Eastern Europe.

    Let's face it. We are witnessing the Castroization of a previously free country.

    Parent

    "Freedom and Liberty" (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:28:09 PM EST
    is an ideology and on it's on sale. This week only.

    and your point is? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:42:27 PM EST
      If you  think its OK to close TV stations that are broadcasting things the the government doesn't like then just say so and tell us why you think that.

      If you think that's not OK, but this is not an example of that. Then say so and tell us why you think that.

      If you just unthinkingly leap to rationalize any action by a dictator who has mouthed some socialist platitudes and opposition to U.S. foreign policy, I'd suggest that it's quite easy to favor a socialist economy and oppose U.S. foreign policy without being a tyrant who represses dissent.

         

    Parent

    The truth? (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:31:03 PM EST
    Beats me what the real truth is...for all I know this station could be a CIA front, or it could be a legitimate voice of dissent in Venezuela.

    I guess when I'm in doubt I side against the people with the guns, badges, and power... and that puts me at odds with Chavez on this one.

    One less tool for us... (none / 0) (#49)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:59:14 PM EST
    To help overthrow a democratically elected government (again).

    I guess we gotta go back to the poison cigars.

    Not a good development (none / 0) (#62)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:07:31 PM EST
    But not, I think, for the reason you imply.

    Chavez:

    "I'm going to warn them before the nation... I recommend they take a tranquilizer, that they slow down, because if not, I'm going to slow them down." ...

    Chavez did not elaborate, but also warned that radio stations should not be inciting violence by "manipulating feelings" among the populace.

    Perhaps RCTV broke the law, called for assassination. Who knows - the "facts" are slippery here. What's worrisome is the "I" - the rule of the man, the caudillo, not the rule of law.

    About the rest, the question is By what right does RCTV or any other privately held entity hold its licence to broadcast over the natural public resource of the public airwaves? You'll note RCTV hasn't been silenced, they still are on cable, just their use of the public airwaves has been taken away.

    There's no inherent right for them to hold that licence, and taking it away isn't suppression of free speech. Could just anyone off the street go into their TV studios previously and have their words broadcast freely? If they couldn't, their free speech was being suppressed. Only in that same sense is it suppression of free speech to not renew their broadcast licence.

    Complete absurdity (none / 0) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:49:12 PM EST
    and utterly bereft of legal sense.

    I do not want to berate but when you write this:

    There's no inherent right for them to hold that licence, and taking it away isn't suppression of free speech.

    you betray a deep ignorance and free speech, the First Amendment and fascism.

    Conditioning the continuation of a broadcast license on the type of coverage Chavez gets is a blatant act of oppression, censorship, free speeech and liberty.

    It shocks me that you do not understand this.

    Frankly, I expected better from you.

    As it is, I am retiring from this diary as I am now convinced there is no purpose discussing the matter here.

    Frankly, I am appalled.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#67)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 04:05:00 PM EST
    Conditioning the continuation of a broadcast license on the type of coverage Chavez gets is a blatant act of oppression, censorship, free speeech and liberty.

    I didn't argue that, and you know it.

    Frankly, your being shocked is no argument to what I DID say.

    Perhaps I'm less appalled at this because I live in a country (Canada) that regularly and openly discusses how broadcast licences are doled out on the basis of the public good vs purely private mercenary interests. The airwaves are a rationed public resource that needs to be managed for the public good. I'm NOT saying that's what Chavez did here. In fact, I say he did the opposite, so no need to berate me for that, at least, in case you really didn't understand my argument.

    Parent

    Excuse me (none / 0) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:43:26 PM EST
    I quoted you and your quote is ignorant of First Amendment law in the United States.

    Perhaps Canada permits governments to pull or not renew licenses when the government does not like what the media outlet says, in the United States, that is verboten.

    I must reiterate, you speak from ignorance.

    Parent

    Nope (none / 0) (#74)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:16:19 PM EST
    That's not what I said at all. I didn't say "Conditioning the continuation of a broadcast license on the type of coverage Chavez gets" - that's purely YOUR coloration of it. Very disingenuous of you. What I said was that inasmuch as this appears to be a case of Chavez imposing his will as Leader, not the result of a true impartial ruling, it's an alarming development and not one I approve of by any means.

    But that's a different issue from not renewing the licence of a private broadcaster legitimately deemed to be acting in ways harmful to the public interest. The question in this instance turns on how legitimately the matter was handled. It seems it wasn't fairly handled if what SUO says below is accurate.

    Calling this is a free speech matter - you're not seriously arguing that the right to free speech is the same as the right to exclusive use of a particular frequency of the public airwaves to the exclusion of all others, are you? If the spectrum were allocated as an infinite resource the way the Internet is, it would be a different matter, but it's not.

    Parent

    Excuse me (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:57:56 PM EST
    We are not discussing hypotheticals here. We are talking about what Chavez did.

    Please deal with the subject at hand.

    I have no interest in castles in the sand that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

    Chavez and his government said why the pulled the license.

    Do you have an opinion about THAT? No? Then have a good night.

    Parent

    No I don't excuse you (none / 0) (#84)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:02:38 PM EST
    You misunderstood my initial comment and excoriated me on the basis of your misunderstanding. Not an unusual performance from you.

    The subject at hand is narrowly whether Chavez silenced an opposition TV station illegitimately. If the details we're hearing are accurate, then boo hiss, he did a bad thing. If not (somehow to be discerned through the propaganda from all sides these days with regard to Venezuela), then different issues arise.

    What if in fact it is true that the station was inciting violence and social unrest and advocating the assassination of the president - this by a station that supported the previous coup against him. You seem to very much want to dismiss and derail consideration of that point out of hand. I don't.

    I'd say it brings up at the very least issues of free speech vs the public good. Not to mention the slippery relativism involved in the fact that one person's "socialization of communication" is another person's fascist restriction of free speech.

    If you can't see those relevant issues, or don't wish to see them discussed, or they aren't of interest to you, then good night to you too.

    Parent

    The issues are not relevant to this discussion (none / 0) (#89)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:36:08 PM EST
    For your edification, I suggest you read my discussion with Al Giordano, in my latest post.

    Your discussion was, imo, off topic here.

    It sounded very much like rationalizing.

    I think my misinterpretation was not solely my fault. But have it your way.  

    Parent

    Utterly on-topic IMO (none / 0) (#94)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed May 30, 2007 at 01:28:02 AM EST
    I think my misinterpretation was not solely my fault. But have it your way.

    lol

    Extraordinarily gracious of you, I must say.

    Parent

    frankly, I'm appalled that you don't know (none / 0) (#68)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:08:31 PM EST
    what on earth you are talking about.

    A private company used a public utility to openly break the law.

    Because of this, the lawmakers decided that the private company should not continue to use the public utility to do so and an opportunity was given to a public company to use the public utility instead.

    Despite openly breaking the law the owners of the public company were not disappeared, incarcerated or tortured, but merely stopped 5 years after the crime from using the public utility when their license to do so expired.  

    The private company are not stopped from using private means to keep disseminating their product and are not jailed for breaking the law.

    Despite of all this you seem to hold that this is wrong because a close neighbouring country that propagandizes that the democratic leader is a 'dictator' and a 'tyrant' and an 'oppressor of free speech' merely because he does not conform to their ideal, tells you so.

    Without knowing all the facts, you then launch ad hominem attacks on people using the BBC, Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting, RTE in Ireland and Greg Palast as sources as supporters of either fascism, marxism and/or haters of free speech.

    When it is suggested (in a polite way despite the attacks) that the ideas you hold may be wrong, you do not seem to re-examine these ideas to see if they are well founded in reason and logic. (They might be they, they might not be.)

    Instead you attack someone who agreed with you, (which might suggest that your emotions are ruling your intellect) and declare that you will no longer engage in the practice of debate.

    To quote Bertrand Russell

    When there are rational grounds for an opinion, people are content to set them forth and wait for them to operate. In such cases, people do not hold their opinions with passion; they hold them calmly, and set forth their reasons quietly. The opinions that are held with passion are always those for which no good ground exists; indeed the passion is the measure of the holder's lack of rational conviction. Opinions in politics and religion are almost always held passionately

    I sincerely hope that you meditate on this sentiment, as a good ground for common sense and ration inquiry, and civilized discourse, and one offered in good faith and respect.

    Parent

    Read some cases (none / 0) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:41:39 PM EST
    at least in the United States, the concept ios well understood.

    I suggest you go to another site where we do not know these things where you can pawn off your falsehoods.

    See, e.g, El Dia, Inc. v. Rossello, First Amendment case RIGHT ON POINT.

    Parent

    BTD (none / 0) (#81)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:31:24 PM EST
    I suggest you go to another site where we do not know these things where you can pawn off your falsehoods.

    I politely(something you seem incapable of) suggest to you that if you have authority over me you should not exercise it in an authoritarian manner.

    I believe that I have not resorted to name calling, and have not attacked you despite provocation.  You are acting in the same manner that you accuse Chavez of.

    Venezuela is not the US.  There is no relevancy in pointing out cases in which the US constition is involved as it does not apply to Venezuela.  I am well aware of what free speech is, but different countries decide what limits if any they wish to place on free speech.  

    The Venezuelan Constitution was approved by popular referendum by a majority of nearly 72%.  Therefore it can be deduced that it is how the majority wanted it to be.  If the limits that it has on free speech (including in this case treason) were so against popular opinion surely I can also deduce that they would not have voted in favour of it.

    The same constitution gives the right for the citizens to petition for a change in the law if they so want.

    Parent

    You attack reason (none / 0) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:57:46 PM EST
    For example, the word "suggest" means just that.

    I am exercising no authority over you.

    Parent

    Suggest (none / 0) (#87)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:25:43 PM EST
    is a loaded word.

    I was not aware if you had authority over me or not.  I assumed that because you start threads you would have authority which is a reasonable assumption.

    In good faith I was taking part in a discussion on a website that I both enjoy and donate to.  If I had broken any rules or was trolling, I would not have taken exception to being called a fascist or it being 'suggested' that I leave and take my views elsewhere, and would not have been upset about the reaction to my views.

    If anyone thinks that I am unreasonable, fascist or a troll please pm me (or ask someone else to do so) and I promise I will leave and present information so that my address can be permantly blocked if you wish to do so.  I will not look upon it as censorship, but as a request to leave a community which does not enjoy my company.

    Yours faithfully
    gollo

    Parent

    RCTV (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:56:04 PM EST
    was a privately-owned network broadcast over the airwaves on Ch 2. As such, I think defining it as "using a public utility" is fundamentally inaccurate.

    Examples of utilities are:

    -An electric utility, which in some instances can be electric power transmission or electricity distribution organizations.
    -Drinking water purification and distribution
    -Sewage treatment and disposal
    -Other waste disposal
    -Natural gas distribution
    -District heat generation and distribution
    -Public transport
    -Telecomunications, such as cable television and telephone lines
    -Roads, including tollways

    RCTV's license was given to a state-sponsored station called TVes which now broadcasts on ch 2. TVes is not a public company, in the sense that Microsoft is a public company.

    TVes is broadcasting using RCTV's privately-owned broadcast assets that had been seized by the gvt after the gvt refused to renew RCTV's license.

    If RCTV's actions broke the law then those laws are not defensible, and the gvt seizure of RCTV's assets and non-renewal of its broadcast license are not defensible.

    how (none / 0) (#77)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:03:20 PM EST
    are the airwaves and the state owned antennae not public utilites?

    If RCTV's actions broke the law then those laws are not defensible, and the gvt seizure of RCTV's assets and non-renewal of its broadcast license are not defensible.

    The Supreme Tribunal of Justice does not agree with you.

    If the citizens of Venezuela are not happy with the law they are entitled to petition the government for a change in the law.

    Why would those laws be not defensible?  A state should be able to proscrible treason in any way in which its citizens will it to.

    Again I would like to point out that RCTV is still able to broadcast either by satelite or cable.

    Parent

    You are arguing (none / 0) (#80)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:20:10 PM EST
    whether the actions are defensible under Venezuelan law, I am arguing whether the actions are defensible as a matter of what should be fundamental Venezuelan rights.

    I am not interested in your argument and apparently you are not interested in mine.

    So be it.

    Parent

    My arguement (none / 0) (#82)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:43:14 PM EST
    supposes that it is up to the Venezuela people to decide what they want as fundemental rights, and it also supposes that when they voted for the constitution, they knew what they were doing and what they were voting for.  

    If you have evidence to the contrary I would be pleased to examine it, but the evidence that I have seen, (which is in no way comprehensive) seems to support my arguement.  I am not as entrenched in my viewpoint as I may seem, (I don't think this is a good move on Chavez's part), but until I see evidence that disputes my arguement it would not be logical for me to alter my arguement.

    I am interested in your arguement but you seem to be saying that the Venezuelans do not know what they want as rights, whereas you do know.

    If they want as a fundemental right to walk backwards every second tuesday, and vote this right in, I do not believe it is up to me to tell them they are wrong and that they do not know what rights are 'right' for them.

    Parent

    Verboten (none / 0) (#73)
    by jondee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:12:53 PM EST
    is it? Are you claiming that there have never been any limits on speech in the U.S media, B.T?

    Ever hear of the (heartily supported by latter day Big Tenters) Espionage Act and HUAC?

    Are black ops and C.I.A sponsored coups in Latin America a form of dictatorial oppression, or do we have to defer to Pravda (NYT) as the final arbiter on that question, too?

    What did I say was verboten? (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:55:20 PM EST
    What Chavez diod. Pull alicense because the government did not like being criticzied by the license holder.

    Look, maybe this legal topic is hard for some of you to understand.

    It is the most charitable explanation.

    Parent

    Big Tent (none / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:19:06 PM EST
    No. They understand what you are saying.

    They are just trying to find a way  to justify what the dictator du jour has done.

    Parent

    Chavez troops are shooting students. (none / 0) (#85)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:04:24 PM EST
    Chilean TV has reports and video on shooting and gas attacks on students. Go here.

    A bit (translated):

    Four are wounded by bullets after incidents in Venezuela.
    ...
    The student march continued normally during the better part of the morning and the midday hours, but this afternoon, police officers on motorcyle began to disolve the protest with tear gas and rubber bullets.

    More links and video of shooting and gas attacks available:
    Link.

    I'm sure... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Slado on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:33:15 PM EST
    that they are violating some sort of law that doesn't allow peaceful demonstarations on government ground.

    Go ahead and defend your boy!   Tony K.

    Parent

    Once again` (none / 0) (#91)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:22:04 PM EST
    look into your own back yard first.
    that they are violating some sort of law that doesn't allow peaceful demonstarations on government ground.
    I condemn chavez's actions, in the same way I condemn bush's actions when he locked up peaceful protestors, when he didn't allow peaceful demonstrations on government ground, when he bombed TV stations that didn't agree with him.

    Where was your outrage then?

    Parent

    again there are two sides (none / 0) (#92)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:33:01 PM EST
    to the story of the police shooting rubber bullets and tear gas.

    Yes they used these actions against protestors marching on the broadcasting regulators building.

    But, they also used these actions against pro-Chavez supporters who where marching on the TV station.

    Will that fact be mentioned in the unbiased media coverage? Nowhere that I can find except the BBC.

    Parent

    Chavez is not the only political actor (none / 0) (#95)
    by Al on Wed May 30, 2007 at 02:19:50 AM EST
    in Venezuela. I respect freedom of expression as much as the next person, but it does seem strange that Chavez is supposed to play by the rules of the US constitution while it's OK for the rich and the CIA to try to overthrow the elected government and/or assassinate the president.

    Let's talk about freedom of expression in Saudi Arabia.

    No (none / 0) (#96)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed May 30, 2007 at 07:34:45 AM EST
      It's not that Chavez must follow the U.S. constitution or laws. It's that WE should advocate that others have the fundamental rights and freedoms embodied in the 1st Amendment.

      Freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom to exercise one's chose religion and freedom to petition government are the cornerstones of any society with aspirations to be a free one.

      These are not merely ends in themselves -- they are among the most important  objectives any society can seek. The idea that a government can restrict or eliminate these freedoms to slilence those who would hinder the government's ability to attain its objectives-- even worthy ones-- is antithetical to any notion of human freedom.

       That  our country falls short is not reason to excuse Chavez's action. It's reason to use your freedom to protest against the ways you think we fall short in delivering on our promise of freedom.

      That Venezuela is not the worst offender is no excuse for condoning it progressing toward the bad.

      Government must regulate the use of broadcast frequencies simply because they are limited and the system won't work for anyone if frequencies are not assigned and protected from interference. The technology itself dictates that government must intervene in the market. That's one reason why cable, satellite and fiber optic technologies hold such (mostly unrealized)  promise. There is less need for government to regulate simply because the technology allows for so many more "broadcasters" in those media.

        For traditional radio and television, government regulation is a necessary evil. I shouldn't be allowed to simply start broadcasting television or radio-- not because of what I might say or allow to be said on my station, but because of the interference to others. Government regulation though should be based on making the system work and providing the broadest penetration of access-- not on rewarding or sanctioning broadcasters based on political speech.

      When a government revokes a broadcaster's permission to broadcast based solely on the political bias odf the broadcaster that is as fundamental a deprivation of freedom of speech and the press as exists.

      Here we quibble about "political balance" (we once had the "fairness doctrine" which was anti-freedom but it didn't prevent anyone from broadcasting it merely dictated to some degree what they must broadcast) and "public service" as concessions one must make for the privilege to occupy a licensed broadcast frequency. That is a far cry from shutting down a broadcaster for expressing a dissenting political view or providing what the government decrees to be unfair reporting.

      Some of you people provide the unwitting foundation upon which authoritarian regimes must be built. It's easy to wave the leftist banner when the repressive government in question is an anti-American one whose actions have no real impact on you. But, remember, what you say now if and when the day comes the threat to freedom more directly strikes at you. You will not be without responsibility for your own loss.

     

    Parent

    Come When? (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Peaches on Wed May 30, 2007 at 09:57:08 AM EST
    It's easy to wave the leftist banner when the repressive government in question is an anti-American one whose actions have no real impact on you. But, remember, what you say now if and when the day comes the threat to freedom more directly strikes at you.You will not be without responsibility for your own loss

    Too late. Privately owned media is not a guarantee that Freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom to exercise one's chose religion and freedom to petition government are protected enough to have a functionaing democracy. Witness the build up to the war in Iraq. Listen to the media incessant use of the white house and government sources as the prime source of information on the war and the blockaide of prominent voices speaking out about how to end this war (BTD's no-funding argument). Check out the cancellation of the one anti-war voice in the lead up to the war in Iraq - Phil Donohue. This was not an aberation, but a deliberate attempt to manipulate the media which is increasingly consolidated into fewer and fewer hands through arguments (promoted by the media) that Free speech is being protected when market forces are allowed to operate outside of government regulations.

    I strongly condemn Chavez's actions, but this is much more compllicated than saying two wrongs do not make it right. There is strong evidence that foriegn forces backed the coup attempt against Chavez and like Castro, some restrictions on private markets have been put in place to protect the government from either a percieved or real foriegn threat to its soverienty.

    IF and when the US moves towards a more democratic state it will have to do so by restricting the current media conglomerates in order to give greater access to the airwaves to more divergent voices at the local level. This will require MORE government regulation and enforcement as well as the breaking apart or even closing down of some privately owned media conglomerates to protect the public interests. When this happens, (unlikely, of course) these privately owned conglomerates will spend untold amounts of money on a disinformation campaign employing lawyers with expertise on US law such as BTD to describe those wishing to shut them down as ridiculous and unreasonable and enemies of free speech/supporters of fascism/authoritarianism. Pay them no heed. Democracy is not about the protection of markets and wealth interests. It is about the protection of freedom and the public interests and sometimes requires the dismantling of private empires.

    I am not Venezualian so I am not sure of Chavez's motives or if he is attempting to indiscriminately wield his power to silence critics or to suppress dissent to protect himself and the public from foriegn forces and domestic private wealth interests, which is a a much stronger and powerful authoritarian voice in latin America. I don't know and neither do the others spouting off about Free speech and democracy and the protection of it here at TL. Larger forces are at work, here, than a simple argument about the protection of private companies and free speech.


    Parent

    I hear you (none / 0) (#97)
    by Al on Wed May 30, 2007 at 09:06:39 AM EST
    loud and clear. The democrat in me agrees with you completely.

    It all comes down to whether you believe that the  radio station was complicit in a coup attempt against Chavez or not. I may be wrong, but I happen to believe Chavez has a point. Certainly the "opposition" is far more than merely a parliamentary opposition. That's the problem. In order to have a democracy, everyone has to play by the rules.

    There is another subtle effect here: The US media are undoubtedly playing up the situation in Venezuela, but remain silent about far more flagrant human rights abuses in countries which are allies of the United States. In responding strongly to the images you see on TV of demonstrators with duct tape on their mouths, you are letting the US media pick your battles.

    But I'll shut up now, because as I say, at the same time an essential part of me agrees with you.

    Parent

    I'm not so sure about this (none / 0) (#99)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 30, 2007 at 12:23:45 PM EST
    Government must regulate the use of broadcast frequencies simply because they are limited and the system won't work for anyone if frequencies are not assigned and protected from interference.
    I realize it's not really on-topic, but the free-marketer in me thinks this is a bunch of caca, and that it's been the established system for so long that too many don't even think to question it.

    One business might interfere with another, therefor the gvt must regulate and protect from interference? Bah.

    imo, the private market would buy and sell frequencies like they buy and sell other biz assets.

    With the proliferation of alternative forms of communication technologies that also serve the "public good," such antiquated protection is long due for an overhaul.

    Who knows how many other alternative communication technologies/methodologies we might be benefiting from today if the gvt didn't create such oligopolies?

    The gvt wants to have (at least some) control over broadcasters to help prevent precisely the type of anti-gvt programming RCTV produced, and the established broadcasters (while they complain publicly about gvt regulation) all know they desperately want some level of regulation so as to protect themselves from competition.

    The gvt regulates broadcasters because they can, not because they should, imo.

    Parent

    it is a tangential issue (none / 0) (#101)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu May 31, 2007 at 07:08:14 AM EST
      But broadcast frequencies must have government regulation even if the regulation was more of a market-oriented type.

     In your scenario, what would prevent: a) more than one entity "selling" the same frequency and each claiming the ability to do so and each purchaser claiming right to use it? b) what would prevent someone who had not purchased the frequency from "squatting" on it and broadcasting a signal anyway? c) what would prevent one broadcaster from simply using such a strong and/or broad signal that he drowned out potential competitors?

      These and other issues cannot be solved in a purely private market. some degree of government regulation is necessary or no one has the real ability to do much of anything.

     

    Parent

    Funny (none / 0) (#104)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 31, 2007 at 03:19:09 PM EST
    I last had this exact same convo about 20 years ago with my dad. I didn't convince him either.

    Anyway....

    what would prevent: a) more than one entity "selling" the same frequency and each claiming the ability to do so and each purchaser claiming right to use it?

    Well, what prevents more than one entity "selling" the same piece of real estate and each claiming the ability to do so and each purchaser claiming right to use it?

    b) what would prevent someone who had not purchased the frequency from "squatting" on it and broadcasting a signal anyway?

    Ibid.

    c) what would prevent one broadcaster from simply using such a strong and/or broad signal that he drowned out potential competitors?

    Ibid.

    The frequency/signal/whatever would owned by someone, it would be illegal to take/use/whatever someone else's property.

    Parent

    The Coase Theorem (none / 0) (#105)
    by Peaches on Thu May 31, 2007 at 03:46:35 PM EST
    is what you are essentially arguing for. Here is an example from Wiki.

    What Coase originally proposed in 1959 in the context of the regulation of radio frequencies was that as long as property rights in these frequencies were well defined, it ultimately did not matter if adjacent radio stations would initially interfere with each other by broadcasting in the same frequency band. The station able to reap the higher economic gain of the two from broadcasting would in this case have an incentive to pay the other station not to interfere. In the absence of transaction costs, both stations would strike a mutually advantageous deal. Put differently, it would not matter whether one or the other station had the initial right to broadcast; eventually, the right to broadcast would end up with the party that was able to put it to the most highly valued use.

    The sticking points are well defined property rights and Transaction costs. In cases of frequencies there can be many more than one or two initial users. If there were many users wishing to use a frequency, then The bargaining between the users would be too cumbersome and costly to be left to the market and could be decided more efficiently with the government handing out licenses.

    I agree with some of what you are saying though SUO. I have a lot of admiration for those who operate pirate radio stations that broadcast intermittently on frequencies disrupting local channels assigned to the Media giants by the FCC. They do it at great risk and cost, but I admire the spirit they undertake it in.

    Parent

    Although this seems to be stated as fact (none / 0) (#106)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 31, 2007 at 04:11:46 PM EST
    If there were many users wishing to use a frequency, then The bargaining between the users would be too cumbersome and costly to be left to the market
    it really is opinion, right? Not one I happen to share, of course.

    imo, the market would create whatever bargaining system would be necessary.

    Thanks for the wiki reference, I've never done any research into it and have never heard of Coase, I've only gone by what seems to me to be common sense.

    Usually gets me in trouble around these parts. ;-)

    Parent

    Not exactly opinion (none / 0) (#107)
    by Peaches on Thu May 31, 2007 at 04:33:21 PM EST
    Certainly with more users the transaction costs are greater. Transaction costs means settling on a price. The market is generally very efficient at settling on a price for private goods that are rival and excludable. Rival means one persons use of the good prevents another from using it. So, if I buy an ice cream cone and use it, you can no longer use it. Public goods are non-rival. Public goods are also non-excludable, which means we cannot exclude people from recieving benefit. Defense spending is non-excludable since everyone recieves the benefit for it whether they pay for it or not. When goods have either of these two properties, or both, the market becomes a less efficient means for allocating the resource and determining price.

    In the case of frequencies where they are non-rival (and real estate is partially non-rival, at least more so than frequencies - since only so many people can occupy and use a space), many users may be involved in the bargaining. The more people difficult it is too determine a price. Think of it like this. If there was a factory polluting a river, the Coase theorem says let the market solve the problem. If people who use the river value their resource, they will determine a price of clean water and pay the factory to stop polluting depending on what clean water is valued at. Well, there are a lot of problems with this approach when there are many users of the river. What if people don't want to pay the factory, they will say that a clean river is not worth that much to them and hope they can get a free ride off of others who want a clean river. If the factory has to bargain with every user over a price to pay for   polluting the river the same problems come up.

    Transaction costs are the cost of making a transaction. Normally with private goods the cost is low, but with public goods they can be quite large as determined by economic models. Each case is different, though.

    btw, this is not radical anti-market economic theory, but standard stuff. It can be found in those little couple of chapters in every standard econ book covering market failures. Public goods are one of the classic example of market failures.

    Parent

    oops (none / 0) (#108)
    by Peaches on Thu May 31, 2007 at 04:35:30 PM EST
    wrote the above backwards on real estate. Real estate more closely resembles a private good because it has qualities that are more rival than frequencies.

    Parent
    Peaches (none / 0) (#109)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 31, 2007 at 05:07:51 PM EST
    interesting in a theoretical sense, in a practical sense I'm much less convinced.

    The possibility that the transactions may be more cumbersome and/or their costs be higher than some other transactions I freely accept. That the market would not figure out a way to make it work absent gvt intervention I don't accept. Call me crazy.

    Maybe the core of the issue is that you, and many others, define, in general, the entire radio frequency spectrum as a pubic good, ie., that, as you said, you cannot exclude "people" (by people I assume you mean JQPublic) from receiving "benefit" (by benefit I assume you mean JQPublic being able to listen to any station they like w/o restriction).

    While I can understand the gvt retaining ownership of a limited number of frequencies for "pubic good" uses, I think the majority of them should be private property. Similar to real estate.

    Parent

    Sarc (none / 0) (#110)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 09:27:26 AM EST
    And your opinion is very valid. I am speaking from a theoretical sense. In reality, no goods are perfectly rival or perfectly non-rival. Likewise. for excludability. All I was telling you was that the Coase Theorem gives the argument for allowing the market to solve the public good problem.

    National Defense a good example of a good that comes very close to perfectly non-rival and perfectly non-excludable. So, It is non-rival, because one person's benefit from it will not lower another's benefit. Likewise it is non-excludable, because it is difficult, if not impossible to prevent individuals from recieving the benefit from it. Now, I think most people (though there are exceptions) do not believe that National Defense is best left to the private market, whereby private citizens decide to purchase defense from foreign invasion of our national boundaries. The private market would allowing private sellers of National Defense to negotiate price with the buyers of Defense. I don't think I have to explain the problems of this scenario based on the theoretical properties of non-rival and non-excludability, since, for most people it is intuitive.

    The same arguments hold for many things that we consider public goods which are niether perfectly rival nor perfectly excludable, like public roadways, public education, etc. The question becomes where on the spectrum of rival and non-rival and exludability and non-excludability Frequencies for radio and television falls.

    These are the economic arguments and arguments for letting the market solve these dilemmas are usually based on the Coase theorem. I have some sympathy for these arguments.

    However, in the case of Chavez and his non-renewal of the RCTV license, there are other arguments involved besides economics. In economics we make arguments based on the efficient allocation of resources whereby it is assumed the efficiency and maximization of profit are in the public interests. These are assumptions. If we don't accept these assumptions, then we will reach a different conclusion than a point of perspective based on economics, since we won't accept the economic argument. If I make the assumption that the airwaves would better serve the public interests, if they were judged on the quality of content and information available, and I argued that advertising detracts from this quality, then obviously, I am going to reach different conclusions. But, that is separate from what you are arguing with your belief (faith) in the market mechanism for allocating public goods.

    Parent

    Peaches (none / 0) (#111)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 01, 2007 at 12:59:39 PM EST
    Thanks for keeping this going, this has been very interesting. The concepts of rival and excludable goods are new (but feel very familiar to me somehow) and make a lot of sense.

    Regarding Chavez/RCTV, I don't think RCTV's actions crossed the line such that Chavez was justified in his response.

    If RCTV, for example, provided significant material support for the coupe that toppled Chavez's legitimately-elected gvt, then I can't blame Chavez for pulling RCTV's license and seizing its assets.

    otoh, if RCTV was merely a cheerleader of the anti-Chavez coupe and/or a non-supporter of Chavez's gvt, then I can't support Chavez's actions.

    Although the facts of RCTV's actions are not as clear as we may wish, from what we do know, imo, they do not rise to the level of significant material support of the coupe that would justify Chavez's actions.

    Ah well, I hope Chavez's gvt does truly help his people. I spent an amazing month or so backpacking through Venezuela in the late 80's, and I wish nothing but the best for that nation and its people.

    Parent

    "The truth about RCTV" (none / 0) (#100)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed May 30, 2007 at 11:08:40 PM EST
    Press release from the British-based Venezuela Information Centre:

    Is the Venezuelan government shutting down the RCTV Station?

    Contrary to some reports, the RCTV station is not being closed down. Rather, the Venezuelan government has chosen not to renew RCTV's licence to broadcast via Venezuela's Channel Two when this expires on 27 May. RCTV will continue to be able to operate freely in Venezuela on the public airwaves on cable and on satellite, as will the many TV and radio stations that RCTV owner Empresas 1BC runs across Venezuela.

    Why has the government decided not to renew RCTV's licence?

    As with other democracies, Venezuelan law allows the government the right to grant broadcast licences, renew them or let them expire. The government has made the decision not to renew because of RCTV's violation of numerous laws - most notably the active support it gave to a military coup in April 2002 to overthrow the democratically-elected Chávez government.
    In addition to its violation of laws that prohibit the incitement of political violence, RCTV has not co-operated with tax laws and has failed to pay fines issued by the Telecommunications Commission.

    RCTV's involvement in the 2002 coup

    ...RCTV's specific involvement included running adverts encouraging the public to take to the streets and to overthrow the democratically elected president. As www.venezuelanalysis.com highlighted, RCTV was the first to broadcast the false claim that Chávez's supporters were shooting at opposition demonstrators, which then served as a justification for high level military generals to declare their disobedience to the government and RCTV also showed exclusive interviews with coup plotters.

    RCTV's involvement was publicly highlighted on a television chat show the day after the coup, where journalists and military plotters boasted of their collaboration in creating a violent confrontation that could be used to justify the overthrow of the government. In this exchange, one conspirator says: "I must thank Venevision and RCTV" for the role it played[v]...

    In addition to direct misrepresentation of events, RCTV also censored news reporting to try to stop the public from finding out what was really happening. RCTV's owner Marcel Granier ordered on the day of the coup and the following day that there was to be "No information on Chávez, his followers, his ministers, and all others" on the station. A managing producer of one of the station's news programmes affirmed this when testifying to the Venezuelan National Assembly. Instead, in the days of the coup, when hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets to demand the return of President Chavez, RCTV showed only cartoons. This is in clear violation of regulations contained in Article 58 of the Venezuelan Constitution that guarantee Venezuelan citizens a right to "true and accurate information".

    In no country would it be the case that media outlets which have not only called for, but also played a key role in organising the violent overthrow of a democratic government, would have their licence to broadcast renewed....

    Is the non-renewal of the licence legal and have other governments made similar decisions?

    Most countries regard the TV and radio airwaves as a public space that has to be regulated through laws and codes of conduct. Governments or delegated bodies are empowered to take action against any broadcaster that fails in its legally prescribed responsibilities.

    Across the world, decisions not to renew licences to those who have violated these requirements are not unusual. A report by J. David Carracedo published in the magazine Diagonal on 21 countries, including the US and in Europe, found that there have been at least 236 closures, revocations, and non-renewals of radio and TV licences. In addition research conducted by the Venezuelan Ministry of Telecommunications shows that over 600 TV broadcasting licences have not been renewed all around the world.

    In Venezuela, the regulations are based on Article 156 of the Venezuelan Constitution, the Organic Law of Telecommunications (2000) and the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television (2004) Similarly, there are requirements on broadcasters in the US and Britain....

    Will alternative views still be able to be expressed in Venezuela?

    Much of the reporting of the non-renewal of the RCTV licence has implied that this station is a lone critical voice of the Chavez government. This could not be further from the truth.

    It is estimated that 95 percent of the Venezuelan media is in opposition to President Chávez, and on a daily basis produces vitriolic 'news pieces' as well as editorials against the government. The private Venezuelan media includes five major television channels -Venevisión, RCTV, Globovisión, Televen and CMT - which control at least 90 percent of the TV market, with smaller private stations controlling another five percent. In addition all of the country's 118 newspaper companies, both regional and national, are held in private hands, as are 99 percent of radio stations.

    Venezuela's media enjoys the freedom to report and express opinions without government interference. Despite the clear violations of laws and active support for the overthrowing of a democratic government, not a single TV or radio station has been closed by the government since President Chávez was elected in 1998....

    In fact, since the election of the President Chávez, the diversity of media has expanded. Venezuela's Telecommunications Minister, Jesse Chacón, recently pointed out that during the Chávez presidency the number of TV channels have increased from 30 to 78 and the number of FM radio broadcasters from 368 to 617 since 1999....

    What will replace RCTV on Channel Two?

    A new television station TEVES (Venezuelan Social Television) will begin airing on Channel Two once RCTV's licence expires. Government Minister Jesse Chacon has said that TEVES will be similar in concept to that of European public service broadcasting, with the aim of creating space for diverse programming. He explained that the new channel will "break the editorial line that exists in the TV business, where the owner of the medium is the owner of the message" with independent TV producers creating the programmes for the new channel.[xvii] The Venezuelan Director of Public Policy of the Ministry of Communication and Information, Luisana Colomine, added that "Any person can participate in its production and no one will be excluded for belonging to one political party or another... That's part of the idea of public service".



    Please (none / 0) (#102)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 31, 2007 at 07:42:28 AM EST
    They take away the over the air license, the one that has true reach. Who has cable in Venezuela?

    You say do not want to be a an apologist but you seem to be among the rankest.

    I really did think better of you. Now I don't.

    Ths press release is a sick joke.

    Parent

    :: snort :: (none / 0) (#103)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu May 31, 2007 at 03:03:02 PM EST
    Your opinions of people are conditioned on whether they hew to YOUR construction of the world or not? You think I might alter my ideas to gain your approval? Don't hold your breath on that one. Do I condition my regard for you on whether or not you help advance the enclosure of cultural properties to the detriment of society in general? Well, I try not to. Do you want to push me there?

    Do you dispute the assertions made in the press release? The facts asserted seem easily enough disputable in principle. Give me links and facts and argument, not your emotion and innuendo and opinion and personal disapproval, and to that I'll be willing to listen. I'm an apologist for no one. I'm seeking facts and drawing conclusions from them. You are the one avoiding facts and I must ask why.

    Perhaps you just don't want to let thinking here go to issues of natural public resources like broadcast spectrum and how they're divvied up among corporations for their own enrichment while it's forgotten that this is a resource that's held IN TRUST by the government for the benefit of the people and that the product provided is only through leasing of the resource. That brings too close perhaps ideas of nationalizing resources, and a whiff of Castro, which makes you lose your mind.

    The process for how decisions on renewal or nonrenewal are made was in place long before Chavez came to power. The licence was not "taken away," it was not renewed for cause. Where is there a "right" to it? Show me.

    Perhaps you're also in favor of privatizing water supplies in Third World countries and selling their life, their drinking water, back to poor people at a price. Perhaps air can be privatized too, and our use of it licensed to the highest bidder.

    Parent