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Iraq: Vote For Dems In 2008 Because Voting For Them in 2006 Did So Much Good

This is the type of thinking that will lead to poor Democratic results in 2008:

All the Democratic sorrow and Republican gloating of the past week came from the heart. With the passage of the Iraq funding bill, Democrats will be forced to watch a thousand more soldiers die, while Republicans can enjoy many more months of pretending they're good at fighting terrorists. But the political impact of the bill is exactly the opposite of what the partisans believe. The Republican Party just signed away its best chance to avoid catastrophe in 2008. As in 2006, Republicans will be left with total ownership of the Iraq War, and in voters' eyes, total responsibility for disaster. . .

In 2006, Democrats won because there was a belief that they could do something about Iraq. In 2008, if nothing else happens, that belief willbe shattered. Why indeed would non-Dems (or purity troll progressives to use the pejorative term for folks who distrust the triangulating Dems) vote for Dems on Iraq when they proved so spineless? This is just the type of thinking that could blow 2008 for the Democrats.

The writer of that post seems to have no idea what people think of Democrats. Let me remind him:

[T]his is the essential Democratic problem, they are viewed as standing for nothing. For having no principles. As Ruy Texeira and John Halpin put For having no principles. As Ruy Texeira and John Halpin put it:
The thesis of this report is straightforward. Progressives need to fight for what they believe in -- and put the common good at the center of a new progressive vision -- as an essential strategy for political growth and majority building. This is no longer a wishful sentiment by out-of-power activists, but a political and electoral imperative for all concerned progressives. . . . [T]he underlying problem driving progressives' on-going woes nationally [is] a majority of Americans do not believe progressives or Democrats stand for anything.

Let's repeat an exercise I did in February:

There was a time, circa 2005 and 2006, when I argued against Dem plans for Iraq:

With due respect to everybody that wants to play President, Bush is the President and we should concentrate on ripping him to shreds for the Iraq Debacle, including his current failures. Does Warner believe in deadlines or timetables? Clark for training or redployment? Who cares? None of it matters until Dems get some power.

Via Greg Sargent, Stu Rothenberg writes:

Democrats are trying so hard to avoid allowing Republicans to label their criticism as merely partisan that they won't even acknowledge the obvious. Instead, they are looking for any opportunity to portray their opposition to the President's policies as part of the nation's dissatisfaction with the administration's Iraq policy.

While that's understandable - one of the few ways Democrats could screw up during the next year and a half would be to appear to be basing their opposition on possible political gain and a petty desire to punish Bush politically - there is no indication that Democrats have been too aggressive in criticizing the President or his policies so far.

In fact, a partisan division over the war probably would help Democrats by further damaging the Republicans between now and next year's Presidential election. After all, if it isn't merely President Bush, but also his entire party, that supports the war and ignores public opinion, Democrats would seem to benefit.

This is right and wrong. Certainly pinning Bush on the GOP helps the Democrats, but political grandstanding alone will not cut it for the Dems now. They control the Congress. They can end the Iraq Debacle. And if they do not, the GOP will try and neuter them on Iraq by saying they did not - Dems were all partisan bluster and no action. And the GOP would be right.

As Greg Sargent points out, Dems hold a 20 point polling edge on Bush on Iraq, 54-34. But if Dems do not do anything about ending the Iraq Debacle, then why SHOULD the American People trust Democrats on Iraq?

And now we come to some practical realities - the Congress can only end the Iraq Debacle by NOT FUNDING IT. It may scare some people to say those words - I think it is an unfounded fear as I have explained many times. But let me give them a political scenario that is scarier -- come 2008 -- when faced with the question "What did a Democratic Congress do to end the Iraq Debacle?", when the answer is nothing, what do you think the voters are going to say?

Spineless Dems ALWAYS lose. Always.

Just yesterday, I wrote:

If the not funding option is "abandoning the troops" is an immutable belief of the American People, and I have seen NOTHING that proves this point (the only polling on the matter is simply grossly inaccurate in describing the not funding option), then why go down this road in the first place knowing Capitulation would be at the end of the road? Alter and just about everyone else in Democratic circles was thrilled with the original House Iraq Supplemental strategy. If they all knew this would be the inevitable end, why were they so happy? This did nothing good for Democrats at all. Given the central image problem Democrats have, that they are spineless (and it is not just the progressive base that thinks this), how could this strategy have been thought to make any sense? It NEVER made sense. Neither politically nor substantively.

Which brings me to my second point; Alter writes:

The second problem is that even if Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid wanted to adopt the Chinese-water-torture approach, they don't have the votes for it in the Senate. Not gonna happen now. Pass-veto, pass-veto sounds good for Edwards on the stump but, sadly, bears no relation to reality on the ground in Washington. And the one thing we've learned from Bush's fiasco in Iraq is that we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we would like it to be.

If Democrats do not have the votes to overcome Bush's veto or even pass a bill, then why in God's name would they pursue a strategy that is dependent on garnering enough votes to override a Bush veto? I have written ad nauseum that the strategy to follow, and it may not work, requires pursuit of tactics that do no require veto proof majorities, or even simply majorities in both houses of Congress. You have read it here many times:

I ask for three things: First, announce NOW that the Democratic Congress will NOT fund the Iraq Debacle after a date certain. You pick the date. Whatever works politically. If October 2007 is the date Dems can agree to, then let it be then. If March 2008, then let that be the date; Second, spend the year reminding the President and the American People every day that Democrats will not fund the war past the date certain; Third, do NOT fund the Iraq Debacle PAST the date certain.

This approach has the following virtues: (1) you are funding the troops in the field; (2) you are giving the Surge a chance to work; (3) you are laying out a plan the American People support; and most importantly, (4) you can end the Debacle and bring our troops home.

Alter would counter that:

®easonable people can disagree over tactics. Sen. Russ Feingold argues that by not voting to cut off funding, Democrats are becoming complicit, and taking co-ownership of the war. Feingold's far-sightedness on the war (he was much more prescient about its folly than I was) deserves great respect. But on this narrow political point, he is mistaken. Democrats who vote to cut off funding can be more easily blamed for the war's failures, especially in swing districts. That's why the leadership is letting members vote their consciences, rather than try to enforce a party line vote that would not prevail in the end, anyway. Pelosi's position is the right one—she's voting against the bill but not trying to make others do the same.
. . . [T]o go back to my purely political critique, why go through the whole Iraq Supplemental charade? Alter says reasonable minds can disagree on tactics, but I don't accept that ANY reasonable mind can now think that the Democratic tactics on the Iraq Supplemental made sense on any level. Reasonable minds can and must see that those tactics were a failure, an abject failure that only hurt Democrats.

. . . Because, whether Alter and other "pundits" and politicians, like it or not, the progressive base of the Democratic Party will punish the Party in 2008. I certainly will urge them not to. but calling them idiot liberals, Naderites and other such names will not change the fact that Democrats will be punished for not trying to end the Iraq Debacle.

Come September, if Democrats do not stick to their guns on Iraq, I predict a serious and important rift in the progressive base, one with serious political consequences in 2008.

Alter and other supporters of the Capitulation Bill best deal with THAT reality.

As the writer of the post says, the Capitulation Bill may not be foremost in the minds of voters come November 2008, but how many other capitulations will occur between now and then? The writer is extremely myopic in his reasoning and frankly, very foolish, in my opinion. It is a myopia generally seen in the Beltway, not in the blogs.

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    i've lost my patience with sausage-making (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by profmarcus on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:37:08 PM EST
    if there has ever been a time when i've felt that the american people count for nothing in our political process, it has been the past few weeks... cherished myths die hard, and, even with years of hardened cynicism, i've still clung to the belief that enough people, working together, using our precious constitutional system as it was intended, laboring for the common good, could make a difference... now i see differently... the system has been co-opted, twisted to insure that our efforts produce only pre-ordained outcomes...

    i wrote the following in response to a post at the huffpo by brent budowsky, urging "young people" not to lose heart...

    brent, i turn 60 this december... i have been working, watching, and waiting my entire life for the kinds of major changes that we so desperately need to come about in our system... to be sure, the past 6 1/2 years have been particularly appalling as we watch the constitutional foundations of our republic undergo relentless assault, but it didn't begin with the 12 december 2000 scotus decision, not by a long shot...

    sadness, outrage and anger don't begin to describe the intensity with which i view our current situation... the democratic performance on the war funding bill is only one in a long series of "last straws..." for quite some time, i've been dodging the belief that the only way to accomplish needed change in this country was to take to the streets... now, i'm convinced it may indeed be the only way...

    if a real leader stepped forward, one with access to a national platform, one with credibility, one untainted by the whirling cesspool that is our elected leadership today, who clearly identified the constitutional crisis we are experiencing and called us to action, my bags would be packed in a new york minute... while i have no intention whatsoever of giving up the fight, your statement, mr. budowsky, that "someday we will win" is empty rhetoric that i have spent my life believing... i don't believe it any more... sorry...

    And, yes, I DO take it personally

    Lots of filler in the comments today. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by andgarden on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:50:53 AM EST


    BTD this is my last post to one of your (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 28, 2007 at 04:02:37 PM EST
    much beloved diaries.  I want to thank you for fighting this fight and for daring to be one the few really for real reality based bloggers out there on the left.  I will always admire and respect you.  This morning my husband and I spoke at length about stepping away from the debate, just because it has become so painful and so all consuming and the more it matters to me and us the less it seems to matter to everyone else.  It is draining a family that will soon have very little to give stepping full tilt back into this mess.  You have always been so firey and passionate and bruised a few egos so I'm chuckling to myself at the same time that I have tears in my eyes.  I don't even know you but I carry you in my heart, probably always till I return to dust.  Always take care of yourself and thank you for everything you have given me by daring to be completely honest and truthful.  You really did make laundry and cooking dinner possible while I attempted to stay in the debate, you always enabled me to keep depression at bay because you spoke the truth and everytime I read it I knew that someone else could read it too and GET IT and finally one day the Iraq War would end.  This family goes to this War though now and I have no more sanity to share with anyone that I will be able to spare.  Thank You for everything, it meant the world to me then and it means tons to me forever.

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by andgarden on Mon May 28, 2007 at 04:50:34 PM EST
    I'm really sorry to see you go. I hope your husband is able to come home for good soon.

    Parent
    andgarden (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:55:10 PM EST
    Last time she brought the subject up her husband was going in September...

    Perhaps he is leaving sooner.

    Perhaps he isn't.

    Either way I wish him Good Luck and God's Speed for his return.

    Parent

    Take care of your family Tracy (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:52:04 PM EST
    We will be thinking of you and fighting against this catastrophic war until it is over.

    God willing, sooner rather than later.

    Parent

    DO NOT GIVE UP YET!! (3.00 / 2) (#3)
    by MSS on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:04:54 PM EST
    This is not the only fight, and not the only loss.

    Hopefully -- with the prodding and organizing and fundraising form the progressive wing of the Democratic Party -- there will be some glad tidings and some withdrawl from Iraq.

    Let's not take this time to trash all the Democrats who voted wrong. There were many who voted right.

    The game is not over. It is not the time to pick up our toys (and votes and money) and give up (wouldn't the Blue Dogs like that).

    This is the time to renew our fight for our democracy. So that in the next election there will be Democrats and a democracy to vote for.

    Oh I am not (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:12:33 PM EST
    Actually this is just a pretty nasty skewer of what I see as an especially stupid post at a respected liberal blog.

    I am very much in to whipping the netroots these days.

    Someone has to. There is some kind of non-aggression pact amonst them.

    Parent

    Ridiculous. (none / 0) (#10)
    by talex on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:32:09 PM EST
    I'm afraid you are taking a post on another blog and using it to prophesies our failure in 2008. You are not going to foster much enthusiasm like that. Are you hoping for failure because the majority of 535 people in DC do not agree with you?

    Meanwhile another September Repub jumps aboard:

    "We have to be realistic," Sessions said on CBS's Face the Nation. "We have to know that we can't achieve everything we'd like to achieve. We have a limited number of men and women we can send to Iraq, and we can't overburden them."

    The senator added that, when General David Petraeus is reporting back on the progress of the surge in September, "I think most of the people in Congress believe, unless something extraordinary occurs, that we should be on a move to draw those surge numbers down." [...]

    "I don't think we need to be an occupying power," said Sessions, who hopes that bipartisan solutions can be found on Iraq. "This is a fine line we've walked, and this surge has got to be temporary.... We cannot sustain this level, in my opinion, in Iraq and Afghanistan much longer."


    http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/sessions-time-to-draw-down-troops-is-coming-2007-05-27.html

    From Josh:

    When Chuck Hagel makes comments like these, it's expected. When Jeff Sessions makes them, it's unusual.

    In addition to Sessions, Sen. Gordon Smith (R-Ore.) recently said he "won't be the only Republican, or one of two Republicans, demanding a change in our disposition of troops in Iraq" by September. Sen. Trent Lott (R-Miss.) said he'll need to see "significant changes" by September. House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) wants a change if the policy isn't working "by the time we get to September." Sen. Norm Coleman (R-Minn.) said, "There is a sense that by September, you've got to see real action on the part of Iraqis. I think everybody knows that, I really do."

    Parent

    Exactly right! (none / 0) (#12)
    by talex on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:40:10 PM EST
    The funding is only for four months. Even Brit Hume recognized that on FNS today and said September would be a tough time in DC for Bush.

    Our leaders have said that July is the next fight. That is just weeks away. And September only weeks away from that. As the news on the ground becomes progressively worse and the public becomes more disillusioned new 'realistic' opportunities will present themselves to end or at least greatly reduce our presence in Iraq.

    Parent

    Why do you insist that everyone be (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by dkmich on Mon May 28, 2007 at 07:02:49 AM EST
    as big a defeatist as you?  Here and at dkos, all you do is preach loyalty and party line no matter how many times you get smacked around.  You really don't have to take this abuse, you know.  There are shelters for just this sort of thing.

    Parent
    I have suggested (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon May 28, 2007 at 07:35:18 AM EST
    an ignore policy towards him.

    Parent
    Why? (1.00 / 1) (#28)
    by talex on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:52:15 AM EST
    You gladly and readily take on other bloggers and scribes daily here who have similar views. You criticize them. Debate their views. Present your own views.

    I'm no tougher than them. But you act as I am.

    ** I suggest that readers here have a mind of their own. If you want to read and comment to any post do so. If you want to read and not comment that is fine also.

    But do it at your own choosing. This is America and you have that right. This isn't any damned cult where you have to do otherwise.

    Parent

    Re: preach loyalty and party line (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Mon May 28, 2007 at 07:58:22 AM EST
    He's become the ppj of the democratic party.

    Too obtuse to realize that the more often he repeats his drivel the further away from the party line he drives people.

    He's a one man wrecking crew out to destroy the democratic party's chances.

    Parent

    You Know Edger (1.00 / 1) (#29)
    by talex on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:19:13 AM EST
    Since you have quit serial troll rating me I will read your post now. and if you have anything to actually say I will respond to them. but if they are simply attacks on me because I have a different view on one thing different from you I won't bother.

    That said:

    Too obtuse to realize that the more often he repeats his drivel the further away from the party line he drives people.

    He's a one man wrecking crew out to destroy the democratic party's chances.

    Anyone who is still using worn-out internet lingo like 'drivel' is immediately suspect to having anything worthwhile or thought provoking to say.

    As far as driving people away from the party line - au contraire. More and more sensible people are adopting the views held by myself and others who chose to support the party rather than bash it. As I said yesterday there are no realists who buy into the 'no bill/date certain' approach. And their are ZERO on the Hill that do so. Not even Feingold considers that approach. Nor does Glen Greenwald. He realizes that your approach is not yet feasible. Timing is everything.

    No, if anyone is is "further away" from the party line it is those who adopt that unrealistic approach. The real party line is to support the party to give us every chance to win in 2008. It is not to attack them in the run-up to an election. No one ever helped their party win an election by attacking them in the run-up to that election. No one.

    That is why people all over are quickly coming to their senses that attacking the party is not the smart thing to do.

    Parent

    Just a sidebar (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by LarryE on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:19:09 AM EST
    worn-out internet lingo like 'drivel'

    According to Dictionary.com, the word "drivel" dates from before 1000 CE.

    Parent

    You still can't quite grasp that (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:42:55 AM EST
    people here want principled politicians, and want the occupation ended, can you?

    You apparently do not read, or refuse to comprehend, nearly all of the comments here.

    The democratic leadership is now viewed as betrayers and backstabbers on about the same level as the gop, because they rode into power on an antiwar vote, not on an enabling vote.

    You are viewed on almost the same level as heel clicking bush supporters, talex. The difference being that most of them get that almost no one is buying their drivel anymore.

    Parent

    asdf (1.00 / 2) (#33)
    by talex on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:02:11 AM EST
    You still can't quite grasp that people here want principled politicians, and want the occupation ended, can you?

    Sure I can. I want the same things. But unlike you I think our Pols are principled. And to look at the dkos polls so did everyone else a few months ago. But now people do not get exactly what they want when they want it and all of a sudden our Pols are not principled. Now that is ridiculous. You toss aside all the good they have done and will do on one moment in time.

    Like I said before (which you do not resond to) no realistc person like Greenwald thinks that defunding is feasible. That is what you don't get. You can't grasp the rationale that Greenwald has.

    The Dems will end this war or at least contribute to substantial numbers of troop leaving Iraq. When that happens you will all look like fools for bashing them. Many of you will try to deny you ever did. But your words will be here to remind everyone that you did.

    I really do not care what you say about me. I have my principles and I am sticking to them. I know things take time - you don't.

    Parent

    Bait and switch (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:10:21 AM EST
    is not "principled", talex. Even when it works on many people.

    Parent
    When done by a commercial enterprise (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edger on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:16:32 AM EST
    it can buy jail time.

    Yet apparently when done by  politicians it buys your support.

    Parent

    And oh yeah Edger (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by talex on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:08:59 AM EST
    you just troll rated me again. I did notHing to deserve that. My post was thoughtful and reasonably argued and even included links to back my case.

    So...

    I will not be reading any of your posts anymore...

    EVER!

    Parent

    Heh. (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Edger on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:13:51 AM EST
    That's something else you don't get, talex. My ratings are a reflection of my evaluation of the value of the content of a comment. There is no option below "1", unfortunately.

    Parent
    Why are you whining (none / 0) (#38)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:14:51 AM EST
    about 'troll' ratings? The rating system here has no effect on anyone. It's just for show.

    I would have thought that you, of all people, could get behind a system like that.

    Parent

    I'm Not Whining per se (1.00 / 1) (#40)
    by talex on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:59:24 AM EST
    I actually don't care about ratings. Neither here or a dkos. The only time I pay attention to them is when a poster is serial troll rating posts that no one else troll rates and does it on a consistent basis. Then it is more of a reflection on that poster - not me.

    When that happens I do exactly what I am going to do with Edger for the second and LAST time. I will not converse with him or even read his posts. There is no need to invest time in irrational people.

    Parent

    You're just whining (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon May 28, 2007 at 12:25:41 PM EST
    per sistently.

    If you're not going to engage him or read his posts, you should ignore his ratings too, since they don't have any effect, other than the effect of giving you something else to whine about.

    Parent

    IOW (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Mon May 28, 2007 at 08:08:18 AM EST
    talex is the embodiment of the definition of chatterer.

    Parent
    Why (none / 0) (#27)
    by talex on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:42:26 AM EST
    aren't you open to other paths? I'm every bit as progressive as you are maybe even more so. Just because I understand how DC works and a lot of others don't does not make me wrong.

    Just because I actually see and hear what the leaders of our party have actually accomplished and are still fighting for does not make me wrong.

    Just because my experience in years of politics gives me the wisdom to know big fights are not won in the first or second round does not make me wrong.

    In fact all of the above make me wiser than most. Especially those who have noting but one line criticism for others who have none of the above.

    Parent

    July...September? (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Mon May 28, 2007 at 08:20:13 AM EST
    A lot of bodies will pile up between then and now.

    Some people ain't got that kinda time...

    Not that those dates even mean anything...the Dems will find a way to support the occupation while speaking out against it just like they for 4 damn years.

    Parent

    Well You Are Right (1.00 / 1) (#30)
    by talex on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:25:22 AM EST
    about the bodies. But those are on Bush not us. It is he who vetoed a sensible bill.

    As for the Dems supporting the occupation: that is your belief not the belief of sensible people. If you and others want to perpetuate the meme that the Dems now own this war - then you are just helping the Repubs spread a lie. Each and everyone of you that repeats that are working to the benefit of the Repubs and not the Democrats.

    If you can't see that then you are blind.

    Parent

    Look at the votes dude.... (none / 0) (#48)
    by kdog on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:03:09 AM EST
    Those that ignore how the Dems actually vote, and only listen to the rhetoric, are the unsensible ones, imo.

    Parent
    This is not the only loss. (none / 0) (#18)
    by dkmich on Mon May 28, 2007 at 06:58:25 AM EST
    You are right.  We got the triple screw you last week:  war, secret trade deals, and H-1B visa increases hidden in the immigration bill.  Is that enough?  I think the base "needs" to punish them.  The problem is that the "base" has no influence over their own party.  Working/middle class?  Take a hike, we're too busy promoting trade and insourcing to bother with them. Deficits, debt and death?  Take a hike, we're too busy show boating with investigations into Exxon and Haliburton to care whose stealing and whose dying. They take the base for granted, and it has to stop.  The only way I can think of is to refuse to play the game.  Ways to do that? Close the wallets, stay home in November, or a write in protest vote so they can count all of the votes they lost.  They have to be punished.  If we don't, then we are as weak and ineffectual as they are.

    Parent
    Our votes don't mean much.... (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Mon May 28, 2007 at 08:13:39 AM EST
    because the Dems know they've got us by the short and curlies, since we refuse to start or support a third party, an anti-occupation party.  The Dems think we've got no one else to vote for, we should prove them wrong.  

    And our money don't mean much compared to what the occupation profiteers are pouring into Washington.

    We lost because the Dems threw the game...its like the 1919 World Series.  The Dems are the Black Sox, the military industrial complex are Rothstein.

    Parent

    kdog and et al (1.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 28, 2007 at 10:51:15 PM EST
    Why don't you stay home in '08??

    It is the only honorable thing to do.

    Parent

    Why should I stay home? (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:05:08 AM EST
    There should be some kind of third party option...they've got my vote blind, whoever ends up on the ballot without an R or D after their name that is.

    Parent
    I don't think it's that (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Mon May 28, 2007 at 11:05:17 AM EST
    The Dems think we've got no one else to vote for

    I think it's more than they are making the same insulting and disrespectful political calculations and assumptions about people that bushco does.

    IOW, they, like the republicans, think that most people are not going make enough effort to dig enough to be able see through them.

    Sadly, they might be right. And some people, like talex, will consider that an achievement.

    Parent

    Is it too difficult? (none / 0) (#1)
    by jpete on Sun May 27, 2007 at 09:30:01 PM EST
    We invested some hope in the dems.  That got them elected.  And now our best hope is that they've got some strategy that is better than it looks?  (Not the you, BTD, is saying this.)

    We're getting rightly worried about democracy.

    grammar police! (none / 0) (#2)
    by jpete on Sun May 27, 2007 at 09:56:16 PM EST
    "not that you, BTD, are saying this"

    Parent
    I agree with you on the politics (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:08:14 PM EST
    Out of curiosity, because this is the most common arguement against your plan over Orange way, what would you expect the sequence of events in Iraq to be if the Democrats went ahead with your plan?

    One scare tactic I've heard is that Bush will supposedly leave "the troops" over there without munitions as a way of playing hardball with Congress. Suppose he were to actually do that? My first thought is that any negative consequences would obviously be his fault, but would the Democrats be able to sell that line?

    Due respect (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:10:46 PM EST
    The stupidity in the dkos community has reached epic proportions and I simply do not pay attention to it.

    Do you REALLY think that argument merits any response?

    I don't.

    Parent

    I think it's stupid (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:15:51 PM EST
    and said so earlier. But I guess I'm just not comfortable allowing other people to think they've won an arguement--especially when they're way out in left field.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:24:25 PM EST
    I just do not think they are worhty of an argument anymore.

    that said, I do think the FP has become excellent on the issue, from MB to mcjoan to Barb and Georgia and Kos, they get it.

    Obama has dumbed the community down immensely.

    Parent

    mcjoan has always been good on this (none / 0) (#9)
    by andgarden on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:29:51 PM EST
    Blades seemed to change his mind after flirting with the vetoed supplemental. Less discussion from the rest, though.

    If I have the opportunity to meet Obama in person, I'm going to take him to task for his "strategy."

    Parent

    mcjoan (none / 0) (#14)
    by talex on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:53:10 PM EST
    changes her tune often. Her changes come slowly but they come. She has come around to my way of thinking on many occasion.

    Reality just has a way of winning out over stubborn ideology.

    Parent

    Blades (none / 0) (#15)
    by talex on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:25:15 PM EST
    if you recall puts more faith in September than he does congress doing nothing and shouting out a date. He knows that won't fly as you previously noted here.

    mcjoan evolves although she is as slow as a mule to do so. Barb and Georgia are well balanced and can at least see all sides of two or three positions at the same time unlike some.

    Markos is like the wind - forever changing direction. His anger is more about throwing out red meat to get page hits only to later come around as he did a few days ago making a post for calm and support of the party.

    Obama is not the driving force at dkos. On that you are wrong which you would know if you read the dkos polls. Edwards support is about two to one over Obama at dkos and Edwards is calling to send veto after veto.

    That plays well at dkos but as anyone can see from his primary polls that is not playing well with the voting public. Which is right in line with the public polls on sending up veto after veto - - they don't want that - - as Greenwald pointed out yesterday.

    Parent

    Whoa! (none / 0) (#13)
    by talex on Sun May 27, 2007 at 10:49:45 PM EST
    Whose out in left field?

    There are very few realists that buy a 'no bill/announced date certain' strategy. And at dkos the only ones that do can't even spell or string a sentence together. So that tells you a bit about them.

    And there are ZERO on the Hill that buy into it. In fact I have not heard one that has even thought about it little on talk about it.

    No it is not others who are out in left field.

    Glenn Greenwald knows that defunding is not possible at this time. He said so yesterday.

    Parent

    A side comment on style of exposition: too long (none / 0) (#16)
    by chemoelectric on Sun May 27, 2007 at 11:37:51 PM EST
    I think you should try to be more brief; brevity emphasizes the point.

    For example, multiple examples are not necessary where a representative example will do; if the representative example differs in details from other potential examples, then those details probably should be cut.

    It was the Democrats (none / 0) (#17)
    by Stewieeeee on Mon May 28, 2007 at 04:47:28 AM EST
    who started this war.  Just look at the iwr vote.

    and everyone knows it's democrats who voted to continue the war.

    even after running on ending it.  why they must be liars!!!!!!!!

    why i believe it was even a democrat who pinned that medal to the chest or mr. bremer.

    Wanna end the occupation? (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Mon May 28, 2007 at 08:29:02 AM EST
    Without risking your life?  The soonest that is possible is 2009 after Steve Kubby is elected president.  

    3 options...A)get him on the ballot and vote for him, B) risk your life, or C) get used to Iraq being the 51st state.

    The Democrats will never ever leave that place...we never left Germany right?

    The ugly truth is that (none / 0) (#26)
    by JSN on Mon May 28, 2007 at 09:18:31 AM EST
    the Republicans voted together and the Democrats split. The pro-war faction is in control.

    There is no agreement among the Democrats in congress about how to deal with the occupation/war. That is because there is no agreement among the voters about how to deal with the occupation/war. Nobody can predict with any confidence what will happen to Iraq if we were to withdraw our troops.

    We have proof by demonstration that the presence of our troops has not prevented the killing and wounding civilians in large numbers but we have no idea how many would be killed and wounded if they were not present or how long the bloodshed would last.

    It appears that the population of Iraq is now down to 24 million from about 26 million when we invaded. Most of them left the country and others died of disease lack of medical services and privation and an unknown number were were killed by our troops or by others. I suppose it is possible for it to get worse but I don't see how it could last very long.