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Number of Evangelical Law Schools Growing

This is about the scariest article I have read in a while.

It begins with Jerry Falwell and his Liberty University dream of "training a new generation of lawyers, judges, educators, policymakers and world leaders in law from the perspective of an explicitly Christian worldview."

Then it lists the other law schools in the mold. The number is growing. Check out the quotes from the students.

Matthew Krause, among Liberty's first law graduates, is one of them. "I think we've complained too long about the destruction of our culture without taking any affirmative steps to remedy it," said the lanky, 26-year-old Texan. "We don't want abortion, but what are we doing about it? Let's get into the courts and find a way to combat that. Same-sex marriage we don't feel is right or a good thing for the culture. How are we going to stop that? You have to do that through the legal processes. Then, at the same time, vote in politicians who share those ideas and beliefs."

These schools exist to teach the students how to circumvent the constitution, eliminate the separation of church and state and deprive all of us of constitutional rights.

Another student says:

"I didn't want to just be a Christian attorney, but an attorney who dedicates my gifts and talents to Christ," said Chicago-born Daniel White, 25, an African-American. One of Liberty's first graduates, he is joining the Gibbs Law Firm in Florida, which argued for continued life support for Terri Schiavo.

A sample of teaching methods:

Liberty integrates the moral and religious roots of the rule of law into every class discussion, an approach Staver calls "law plus." That came through during a recent "Lawyering Skills" class when professor Rodney Chrisman presented a case and then asked his students whether they would compromise their integrity on behalf of a good client. "The Bible says a good name is a greater treasure than silver and gold." Chrisman told them.

As to jobs for graduates:

.... four Liberty graduates will clerk for judges, one at the appellate level. Such jobs pave the way to a clerkship with the U.S. Supreme Court and beyond, said Staver, a fact of which Falwell was well aware.

"We'd be pleased if we trained up a John Roberts and a Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas and an Antonin Scalia," Falwell told the Tribune, with a wide smile. "We'd feel like we hit a home run."

How did these schools get accredited by the ABA? They are subversive.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Reminds me of.... (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by kdog on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:05:26 AM EST
    "Devil's Advocate" with Al Pacino....but instead of Satan calling the shots, we have guys like Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell calling the shots.  I think I'd prefer Satan:)

    Pat, Jerry and the Devil (none / 0) (#72)
    by Mike Mid City on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:45:32 PM EST
    We get them all, lucky us.

    [ Parent ]
    SC Swing (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by squeaky on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:11:14 AM EST
    What this is all about is getting ready for another Republican Administration and a stacked court that will erase the seperation between Church and State.

    It is not just that the the Evangelicals are opening up law schools, that on the face of it is just fine.  It is that their intent is subversive: the elimination of the seperation between church and state.

    I know which one is scarier: (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by jondee on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:14:00 AM EST
    the one which will settle for nothing less than working to set the stage for Armageddon and "Rapture" in M.E; especially when they're insinuating themselves into higher govt.

    They're a symptom (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by fairleft on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:18:29 AM EST
    These schools exist to teach the students how to circumvent the constitution . . .

    Well, that means they teach students how to be stooopid lawyers. I've heard these folks attempt to argue like 'real lawyers'; they laugh-out-loud embarrass themselves against anyone with common sense and knowledgeable of the Constitution and U.S. law generally.

    The circumventers have had success destroying our Constitution because they've been enabled by the political power of the Christian far right. That political power is the problem, not its stupid lawyer symptom. Those lawyers -- trained in anti-Constitutional Law apparently -- will crawl back under their rocks in our nation's backwaters as soon as this powerful anti-Constitutional political movement is destroyed.

    a story (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by eric on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:25:19 AM EST
    I thought that I would share one story about a religious law school here in Minneapolis.  The school, St. Thomas Law School, is a catholic place that is only about 4 or 5 years old.

    A student there told us a story about how, during a family law course, the professor described anyone who was born out-of-wedlock as a "deviant".  This is the type of thing that would have got you kicked out of my law school.  I cringe to think about what else goes on there.

    These people are a very big threat to the practice.

    you'd get KICKED OUT (none / 0) (#9)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:29:41 AM EST
     of your law school for having moral or religious beliefs different than the school administration's?

      Now, THAT would be scary if true.

     

    [ Parent ]

    I'd like to hope that if a law prof (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:05:27 PM EST
    said in class that people born out of wedlock are "deviant" in my law school that the prof would be kicked out.  And it's got nothing to do with me thinking that people with different religious beliefs shouldn't teach in a state-run law school. The issue is whether professors ought to be making statements in class that are (a) blatantly bigoted and (b) of no conceivable merit or relevance in a discussion of mainstream legal principles.  

    [ Parent ]
    And the repression continues (1.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:13:23 PM EST
    nolo, you disaprove of professors making bigoted or irrelevant statements in the classroom. The answer to my next question is crucial:

    Should we use legal processes to silence professors who make bigoted or irrelevant statements in the classroom?

    There is a right answer to that question, and I'm sure you know what it is.

    [ Parent ]

    Gabriel (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Edger on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:47:16 PM EST
    There is a right answer to that question, and I'm sure you know what it is.

    [ Parent ]
    If by legal process (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:25:26 PM EST
    You mean firing or disciplining people, then sure.  Why shouldn't school administrators be free to fire or discipline professors who waste class time on bigoted and irrelevant material? If by legal process you mean "ship to Gitmo," well of course not.

    [ Parent ]
    Legal Processes (1.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:40:39 PM EST
    nolo, by "legal processes" I meant things like outlawing bigoted speech. The administrative remedies you suggest seem entirely appropriate to me.

    Also, upthread I disapproved of using quasi-legal processes to shut down schools which have "subversive" ideas. By "quasi-legal process" I meant things like the ABA accreditation process, which isn't strictly a legal one, but amounts to one because of the position of the ABA in this country.

    [ Parent ]

    nolo (1.00 / 1) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:15:44 PM EST
    So, you believe that Ward Churchill should have been fired for his "Little Eichmans" comments??

    [ Parent ]
    see my response to Peaches (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:35:51 PM EST
    below

    [ Parent ]
    for ease of reference (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:39:04 PM EST
    This whole (1.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:27:00 PM EST
    it's good when my side does it to the other but bad when the other side does it to us phenomenon is simply an obstacle to reasoned consideration of the issues.

      If a professor who called a gay man deviant (and assuming he meant it with the moral connotation commonly ascribed the word) should be fired then because he expressed an unpopular opinion. Would you likewise call for the firing of a professor:

     who advocated state control of the means of production?

    who told his students a war was wrong and immoral? Who stated that Christianity is based upon the delusional visions  of  a mentally ill man?

    told his students that Islam is based upon the delusional visions  of  a mentally ill man?

     who professed that religion has caused many wars?

     who argued churches should be taxed?

    who stated Jesus condemned homosexuality?

    who stated Christ's teaching support socialism?

      Once we start oppressing people where do we draw the line other than against the other guy?

    [ Parent ]

    Give up on the (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Edger on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:20:42 PM EST
    conflation theory, decoy. It's not working. You'll end up with the same level of credibilty as Gabe, a self-admitted liar.

    [ Parent ]
    In the classroom, (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:21:21 PM EST
    most, if not all, of the statements could be appropriate or inappropriate depending on the context, but not because people who believe these things should or shouldn't be allowed to teach in law school.  It would be because the particular issue either is or isn't appropriate in the context of the classroom.  So let's take a look. I'm going to put on my fictional state-run law school administrator hat and get going:

    1.  If a professor in my fictional state-run law school, while acting in his or her capacity as a professor, called a gay man deviant I'd expect to see disciplinary consequences.  

    2.  If a professor in my fictional state-run law school is abusing class time proselytizing for a political movement, I'd expect to see serious consequences.  If, instead, the same professor simply points out potential arguments for the constitutionality of state control of the means of production while discussing, for instance, the commerce clause, then no.  And why would I?

    3.  If a professor in my fictional state-run law school shared legal theories and arguments as to whether a particular war is or was illegal, that's one thing.  If the professor was going on about the morality or immorality of a particular war, I'd have to know more about how on earth that might have relevance to the curriculum.  If, for instance, it was in the context of a course in international law cross-listed as an ethics course through the philosophy department I could see relevance.  But in a core class in the average law school curriculum?  Probably not, in which case I'd want to see some justification for the course content.  If the statement had no pedagogical relevance, I'd want the professor to keep it out of the classroom.

    4.  If a law professor in my fictitious state-run law school spent class time going on about religious subjects, either disparagingly or in an effort to proselytize, I'd expect there'd be consequences.  Other than from a historical perspective, I also would want to know why a law professor in a state-run school would spend class time talking about whether or how any particular religion condemned or supported anything that would be of relevance in a law curriculum.

    5.  If there's a legal or policy argument for taxing churches, I don't see why it couldn't be made in a law school.  The tax code's a purely legal structure, after all, and it's often used to support particular social and economic policies.  I don't see why one couldn't discuss the reasons for taxing churches in this context.

    I'd love to see you put on your own fictional administrator hat and tell me if you disagree with any of my assessments.

    [ Parent ]
    I completely disagree (1.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:42:58 PM EST
    with each and every assertion you make and wonder if you ever attended school.

      You want to straitjacket teachers to the point they would serve no purposes in terms of truly educating people. It's this type of anti-itellectual, anti-freedom intolerance that we need to eliminate from universities and law schools.

      Essentially, teachers would be unable to do anything that challenged the prevailing orthodoxy.

      I'm glad your thinking was less accepted back in the days of the civil rights movement when universities and law schools were known for championing minority rights and teachers advocated more than the existence of legal theories that might be used but actually led movements to do what was right.

    [ Parent ]

    not only have I attended school (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:02:55 PM EST
    but I managed to earn the high A in my constitutional law class, and I earned it from a professor whose ideological bent couldn't have been more different than mine.  If you explain your difference in opinion rather than insulting me personally, I might even get it.

    [ Parent ]
    What part needs (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:18:07 PM EST
    explaining.

      People here are advocating denying people with religious views thay oppose the rights to:

    assemble in schools they establish, petition for redress, access to the courts, obtain admission to the bar, advocate for causes in court using arguments based on religious perspectives...

      My position is quite simple. Those things are anathema to everything which we should hold dear and do not represent defending the constitution but rather would make a mockery of the Constitution.

       If Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or wiccans wish to establish law schools they should have that right. they should be free to run those schools as they see fit. If the way they see fit meets ABA standards they should not be denied accreditation because others dislike their philosophies or teaching methods,

      If their graduates can demonstrate the minimal proficiency and other requirements for admission to the bar they should be admitted without ANY consideration of their religious beliefs.

      If these lawyers then choose to advocate for religious viewpoints they should be allowed to do so in the same manner using the same procedures on behalf of their clients as other lawyers are allowed to do for their clients.

      No lawyer should be forbidden to make any moral, religious, ethical, spiritual, or other argument he chooses before a Court and no lawyer should be forbidden from arguing for different, even radically different, interpretations of the law.

      That you cannot see that stifling dissent in that manner  because you oppose the views is exactly what you claim to oppose when the religious right does it shows that good grades don't necessarily mean much when it comes to enlightenment.

     

    [ Parent ]

    That's all very nice, and (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:37:35 PM EST
    I do not disagree generally with the principles you espouse.  But you haven't told me what you think is wrong with the specific points I made.  Also, you know and I know that the following statement is overbroad:

    No lawyer should be forbidden to make any moral, religious, ethical, spiritual, or other argument he chooses before a Court and no lawyer should be forbidden from arguing for different, even radically different, interpretations of the law.

    I don't know about how things work where you practice, but I try to maintain a healthy respect for whatever version of Rule 11 is in effect in the various courts where I appear.

    Anyway, have a great day.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by eric on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:10:50 PM EST
    I don't know about how things work where you practice, but I try to maintain a healthy respect for whatever version of Rule 11 is in effect in the various courts where I appear.

    Good snark.  Also, good practice. ;)

    [ Parent ]

    Rule 11 (1.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:05:44 PM EST
    is used to prevent lawyers from making  any  moral, religious, ethical, spiritual, or other arguments in pleadings or argument or from making arguments for radically different interpretations of laws?

      Since when? as long as I make my arguments in good faith it is not against the rules to make them. It may often be a very bad tactic to make good faith  arguments in certain ways but it most certainly is not a violation of Rule 11 or the RPC.

      As for not understanding where i disagree with you. I can't help you anymore than i already have. I completely disagree with your endorsemt of restraints on academic freedom in universities and law schools and your support for denying religious people their constitutional rights in and out of the courtroom.


    [ Parent ]

    I don't think you get (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:45:38 PM EST
    my point, or that you get Rule 11 either (the feds dumped the "good faith" language in the federal rule for an objective standard way back in 1983), but that's ok.  I have to ask, though, do you really think it would be an appropriate exercise of academic or religious freedom for a law professor at state-run school to call a gay person a deviant to their face in the classroom?

    [ Parent ]
    Violation of the Unruh Act in CA. (none / 0) (#108)
    by oculus on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:55:06 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Are St. Thomas Law School (none / 0) (#52)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:28:47 PM EST
    Liberty or Regent state-run?

    [ Parent ]
    St. Thomas University (none / 0) (#53)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:34:36 PM EST
    is Catholic-run.

    [ Parent ]
    Tought question, eh? (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by oculus on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:36:23 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Kicking Professors Out of UST (none / 0) (#22)
    by Peaches on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:18:00 PM EST
    This is kind of funny. UST Law School is one-step removed from an on-line university. It keeps its costs as low as possible by having a very small faculty and employing mostly adjunct professors to teach its courses - mostly lawyers from the mpls/st paul area.

    If the "story" one student told about about one comment a "professor" made in class is true and was made public, I am sure the University of St Thomas would make a public statement about how such language is not tolerated at their school and the issue would be addressed with the faculty - the result of which would mean that the course would be taught be a new adjunct the next semester.

    [ Parent ]

    I've always been curious (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:30:50 PM EST
    about St. Thomas University and the other new Catholic law school, Ave Maria, which was founded by Dominos' Pizza mogul Thomas S. Monaghan and is about to move to Florida as well.  I mean it's not like there aren't already a number of well-respected Catholic law schools in the U.S.  The founders of schools like St. Thomas, however, apparently don't think these schools are Catholic enough.

    [ Parent ]
    Political or Financial (none / 0) (#73)
    by Peaches on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:45:57 PM EST
    The UST law school exists more for financial reasons than political reasons,imo. UST has been rapidly expanding its extension graduate studies to meet the needs of the professional communities in the Twin Cities area. There probably is a political agenda underlying both the founding and curriculum of the law school and I am sure that the University's desire to remain Catholic is genuine. However, if the school was not a money-maker or if it did not bring in revenue to the university, the law school would not be in existence (or its existence will be short.)

    [ Parent ]
    Specialization (none / 0) (#76)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:46:53 PM EST
    Nov. 3, 2005

    Too Many Law Schools?

    There is no shortage of jokes about the United States having too many lawyers. If there are any corollaries about law schools, the punch lines are falling on deaf ears at a host of institutions that have plans to open law schools

    Since 2003, at least seven new law schools have opened, and several more are on the way, including three that were announced at Drexel and Elon Universities and Mills College. Officials at some of those institutions said the new law schools are not just adding more desks, but will fill particular niches. Student demand suggests that the new schools are welcomed.

    For perspective, the ABA accredits about 195 law schools in total.

    [ Parent ]
    The horror (none / 0) (#17)
    by Peaches on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:59:54 AM EST
    You know, professors say a lot of stupid things. Law students are adults and they can filter out these dumb and/or opinionated statements.

    The University of St. Thomas is a catholic University serving a much larger community in Minneeapolis/St. Paul and the surrounding area. There probably are some law students attending UST because it is a Catholic school and a few who want conservative teachings. However, I would bet the majority of Law students there chose UST out of convenience for both place and class schedule - since many of the students are part-time and work day-jobs and the law school offers evening and weekend classes.

    I doubt UST is very effective at brainwashing and converting law student to serve the Catholic agenda, though they might serve the interests of a few who come to UST with those views already held.


    [ Parent ]

    Re (none / 0) (#56)
    by eric on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:48:09 PM EST
    There probably are some law students attending UST because it is a Catholic school and a few who want conservative teachings. However, I would bet the majority of Law students there chose UST out of convenience for both place and class schedule - since many of the students are part-time and work day-jobs and the law school offers evening and weekend classes.

    Or, they couldn't get more than a 150 on the LSAT and Mitchell wouldn't take them.


    [ Parent ]

    Or, that too, of course, (1.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Peaches on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:22:09 PM EST
    IT goes without saying, as a new law school, their requirements will be lower.

    I am not defending UST law school as a credible institution for higher learning nor its law students as supreme graduates worthy of being highly paid lawyers (most of whom won't be) I'm nnly pointing out that your story of a student's story is neither credible nor illuminating on the subject of Jerry Falwell and Evangelical community's desire to tilt our countries laws toward a more right-wing fundamentalist Christian agenda.

    [ Parent ]

    are you calling me a liar? (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by eric on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:33:13 PM EST
    Not credible?  You don't even know me and yet you call me a liar?   That is low.  The story is absolutely true.  The student is a law clerk that works for my wife.  I am not going to name names, not in this public forum anyway.

    What's your deal?

    [ Parent ]

    I had a friend whose friend.... (1.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Peaches on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:52:06 PM EST
    Any story that begins with this is not credible. It adds very little.

    I don't know you or the student who relayed to you the story. That is what makes your story not credible.

    i don't know you presonally, so I have no idea if you are lying or not. But that is also irrelevant to the whether the story is credible or relevant to the thread.

    [ Parent ]

    Yet you persist in calling me a liar (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by eric on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:01:37 PM EST
    I heard it first-hand from this student.  She is a student at St. Thomas.  She wasn't lying and neither am I.  You are really starting to piss me off.

    Maybe YOU should go to law school and figure out why this story is relevant.  Yes, it's anecdotal.  But I do also think that it is telling.  It shows that at least once, there was a professor that did something that is so far out of the norm for what one would expect in a normal law school that it makes one question the law school itself.

    [ Parent ]

    I never called you a liar (none / 0) (#89)
    by Peaches on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:09:56 PM EST
    Relax Eric,

    Holy cripes! I said the story isn't credible and I don't care who you say the student was. I don't know you, okay. If JimAKAppj told me that his friend told him that there are terrorists in Denver, I would say his story is not credible. If Edger told me that his friend told him that Alberto Gonzalas read Mein Kemph every night before bed I would say that his story is not credible.

    You say a student told you that a professor called someone a deviant. You ever play the game grapevine in grade school. Things get lost in translation all the time. I don't know how many times I have had a friend relay to me a story and I have retold the story with one less step removed to make me sound more credible. This does not make me a liar, it makes me human. We all do it. I don't know if you have done that this time or not, but I know enough about human nature not to trust a story on a blog about something a student told a blogger.

    If that is nasty...

    [ Parent ]

    But Peaches!!!! (1.00 / 1) (#123)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:21:33 PM EST
    They are! They are!!

    BTW - How's the garden??

    [ Parent ]

    Right now (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Peaches on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:52:10 AM EST
    I'm praying for rain. Been pretty dry so far this spring.

    [ Parent ]
    Peaches (none / 0) (#256)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 22, 2007 at 07:54:52 PM EST
    Ditto.... I have an irrigation system courtesy of a deep well that is used for nothing else.  

    The water temp is a constant 65, I'm thinking about a cooling/heating system modifcation that will draw the water up and through the system, and then back into the ground..

    I'm eating lettuce, onions, cabbage...my radishes tanked and the squirrels and rabbits got a large part of my strawberries..

    [ Parent ]

    Characterizing (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jondee on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:41:32 AM EST
    (or, is it spinning?), any sharp intellectual critique into "secular intolerance and bigotry" is just how the Robertson, Falwell quarter would respond to this kind of criticism.

    Decon (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by jondee on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:55:37 AM EST
    When you say "you say" you're refering to me?

    Show me where I, or anyone else here advocated them being "oppressed" or "denied rights".

    What you've got is intellectual criticsm and expressions of concern, i.e., "secular bigotry" etc.

    Well, (1.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:06:22 PM EST
     if you in fact recognize the profoundly repressive and authoritarian nature of ideas such as law schools should be denied accreditation if they teach religious perspectives and that lawyers should be barred from advocating for religions that reject secular notions of justice, you did not make that clear.

     I assumed based on the fact you rabidly leaped into the fray with thoughless criticim of me that you were endorsing what i warned against.

      Perhaps you should write more carefully. Because those ideas are not "sharp intellectual criticism" but rather are calls for stifling dissent and depriving dissenters of their rights.

    [ Parent ]

    Why the hell (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by taylormattd on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:24:33 PM EST
    should the ABA accredit a school, the primary scholastic focus of which is not teaching law, but is instead churning out folks with a religious agenda?

    [ Parent ]
    They do just enough to get the accredidation (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by eric on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:42:32 PM EST
    It's tough.  They jump through the hoops so the ABA has no choice.  

    [ Parent ]
    Because, (none / 0) (#28)
    by Peaches on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:27:26 PM EST
    They meet the requirements for accreditation.

    [ Parent ]
    If that (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by jondee on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:58:38 AM EST
    specter-of-liberal-intolerance strawman were any bigger, it'd be rampaging through Tokyo.

    It's not a straw man (1.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:12:03 PM EST
     and denying the undeniable just makes you appear foolish. when people argue that religious people should be denied the right to have their own schools and be accredited based on the same standards as everyone else that is, by definition, intolerance.

      when someone states lawyers can have faith but that they must not allow it to inform their decisiona as to what to advocate in Court and in what manner, that is intolerance.

      The religious right does not have a monopoly on wishing to impose its view of morality on everyone else. When secular leftists (or secular rightists for that matter) seek to repress the expression of religiously motivated thought that is just as bad as when religious people seek to repress expression of secular ideals.

      Same coin-- two side, both opposed to freedom.

    [ Parent ]

    It is by definition (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by bnye on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:07:06 AM EST
    a straw-man.

    I argue that I want to prevent the subversion of the constitution which may require SOME institutions to lose there accreditation's and those FEW institutions are religious in nature. You argue that I am trying to prevent people with religious faith from becoming lawyers. Hmmm...I'm not sure how you define a straw man, but I think you nailed it.

    [ Parent ]

    Strawman or a shifting of ground? (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Peaches on Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:26:07 AM EST
    We all enter into arguments with a wish to win. Sometimes that means we have to frame the debate in terms that are set up in our favor. The Strawman argument is a frequent tactic, but even more frequent on blogs is throwing out an accussation of strawman when someone either doesn't understand an argument or refuses to accept the framework in which an argument is made. Strawman allegations have become so frequent on blogs, that most people just role their eyes and move on when they come across them. Like people who have econ 101 as freshmen in college and suddenly completely understand the global workings of the economy and advocate free market solutions as some form of Natural Law, the influence of Philosophy 101 has had similar detrimental effects on the reasoning capacity of many indivduals who pride themselves on their education.

    You say:

    I argue that I want to prevent the subversion of the constitution which may require SOME institutions to lose there accreditation's and those FEW institutions are religious in nature.

    However, if you wish to prevent the subversion of the constitution you cannot revoke the accreditation of a law school without sufficient cause - and sufficient cause would require that you demonstates that the law school no longer meets the requirements for accreditation. No one has made that case here. The only case that has been suggested is that these schools are religious  in nature and therefore should not be accredited by the ABA. That is a direct subversion of free speech and our constitution.

    You interpret Decon as saying:

    You argue that I am trying to prevent people with religious faith from becoming lawyers.

    That is one interpretation of what Decon is arguing. I will leave it to him to clarify. My interpretation of his argument is that you are trying to prevent an institution from getting accredited based on its religious affiliation.

    [ Parent ]

    THINK (none / 0) (#221)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 22, 2007 at 03:05:38 PM EST
      It's not the point that these people might be able to go other schools and become lawyers. It's that they should have the right to assemble in schools of their own choosing to do so. (Ignoring for the moment that some people here have argued that their willingness to suprress their religious inclinations should be a criterion for admission to the Bar which your attempt to buttress the "strawman" assertion ignores.)

      Telling people well other possible avenues for you to do something exist, does not change the fact that denying them the right to do it in the way they choose for the reasons they choose is suppression.

      Suppose, there were private schools with a feminist agenda or a Hispanic agenda, or an African-American agenda or an environmentalist agenda or a pacifist agenda or any other "agenda" and that those schools met the requirements  for accreditation. Would you attempt to make the ridiculous argument that denying those schools accreditation solely because of the "agenda"  is was not an overt effort to prevent those people from assembling with others of like mind to further their cause? would you for even a second say its OK to close "those few schools" because people could go to different schools that did not have those agenda?

     

    [ Parent ]

    turn it around (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Sailor on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:21:40 PM EST
    If he'd said
    "training a new generation of lawyers, judges, educators, policymakers and world leaders in law from the perspective of an explicitly Muslim worldview"
    I can certainly imagine some folks howling.

    Here's another idea; ask on the bar exam if there was a conflict with the constitution and their underestanding of the bible, which would they go with? If they cite the bible then they don't pass the bar.

    Let 'em go to what ever wackdoodle school they want ... but don't let them practice.

    you ALMOST got it (2.33 / 3) (#30)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:33:22 PM EST
      yes, you would hear people howling, and THEY'D BE WRONG  for the same exact reason why the people howling about Christian schools and lawyers are wrong.

     Howlers are rarely adding much more than noise with their rabidly intolerant and repressive demands.

    [ Parent ]

    Howlers (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Edger on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:39:06 PM EST
    like people who demand the power to subvert the constitution and make rabidly intolerant and repressive demands of people who try to protect it, you mean?

    [ Parent ]
    You mean (1.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:16:12 PM EST
    subverting the Constitution by denying people equal protection of the law based on their religiou beliefs as so many here are advocating?

      How is that any less subversive of the Constitution than seeking to erode the protections against establishment of a state religion?

     It seems that people think that because if THOSE PEOPLE get power they will subvert the Constitution and oppress me, I am justified in subvering the Constitution and oppressing them preemptively.

      That people cannot see the problem with that line of dogma is amazing.

     EVERYONE has the right to BELIEVE what they want and to advocate for the preminence of those beliefs, to assmbel for the purpose of advancing their causes and to use the government processes, legislative, executive/administrative and judicial to accomplish their goals.

      Believe it or not it is PERFECTLY CONSTITUTIONAL to advocate abolishing the Constitution and establishing a theocracy and to use all non-violent means of obtaining that goal. To suggest that one should be barred from using the Courts merely to argue for a "subversive" interpretation of the Constitution is just about as intolerant of dissent as it gets.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Edger on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:32:33 PM EST
    You go right ahead and advocate subverting the constitution and establishing a theocracy in the US all you like, decon.

    You're right again. You'll run into more intolerance than you've probably ever run into before.

    Justified, IMO, and  probably in the opinion of most.

    Good luck. Oh, and good luck with the strawman arguments too. you'll never get far attributing things not said or even implied to me or anyone else. There is a word for doing that. Ask Gabe - he knows it well, from experience. He's not very good at it, but you can learn the basics from him to help you improve your skills.

    [ Parent ]

    Holy (none / 0) (#51)
    by Wile ECoyote on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:26:36 PM EST
    Second amendment, batman!  Not that any libs want to take away constitutional rights.

    [ Parent ]
    The rest of us ... (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Sailor on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:01:20 PM EST
    ... were talking about the First amendment.

    The Second amendment is 2 doors down and on your right.

    [ Parent ]

    Sarcasm (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:20:14 PM EST
    becomes you.

    [ Parent ]
    Giving Christianity a bad name (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Al on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:47:52 PM EST
    If a lawyer were a true follower of Jesus, that would be a good thing, because Jesus preached a very simple message of love and compassion. But religious movements such as Falwell's are political organizations, and religious leaders like Falwell have a strong financial interest in their success. A young, mediocre but ambitious person can reach much higher and better remunerated positions by proving him/herself loyal to the organization than they ever could by themselves. When they attain any position of power, they make sure to open the door for their correligionaries, so that they too can have power and make lots of money.

    They spread exactly like cancer. They are literally a cancer on society.

    One of the many lies they rely on is to accuse anyone who stands in their way of religious intolerance. They are not acting on behalf of religion. I'm sure they do not have Buddhists or Hindus or Bahkti yogis, or real Christians for that matter, in mind. They are acting on behalf of a very specific political organization with goals of power and wealth, with a religious front.

    Al (1.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:06:48 PM EST
    Can you tell me how to recognize a Christian??

    Or wouldn't that be profiling??

    [ Parent ]

    Recognizing a true christian.... (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by kdog on Mon May 21, 2007 at 01:52:15 PM EST
    Mother Teresa was a recognizable christian...taking a vow of poverty, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, caring for orphans.

    That what you meant?  The Robertson/Falwell variety are unrecognizable despite their constant pleas of piety.

    [ Parent ]

    Hah (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by squeaky on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:25:56 PM EST
    Right on kdog. The pleas of piety are second only to their pleas for cash.

    [ Parent ]
    Ha Ha... (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by kdog on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:57:32 PM EST
    maybe thats what Jim meant...recognizable by their pleas for cash.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (1.00 / 1) (#87)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:05:37 PM EST
    out here anyway, you can recognize Christians by, say, going to the apartment complexes in Ventura County that rent mostly to illegal aliens.

    The folks bringing them food, diapers, etc., to keep them going until the local ag economy picks back up from the blow it was dealt in the recent freak freeze, are mostly Christians.

    Or you can head to some of the towns in Mexico - the Christians are the ones who are building their schools.

    You can also spot them as they bring food and clothing to LA's skid row.

    You get the idea.

    [ Parent ]

    The christians you mention.... (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by kdog on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:27:07 PM EST
    seem to be following the teachings of Jesus, like Mother Teresa...I salute them.

    Jesus was one of my alltime favorite human beings.  We need more like him....and less of those who pervert his message.

    [ Parent ]

    I think, in life, (none / 0) (#100)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:33:10 PM EST
    you mostly find what you choose to look for.

    [ Parent ]
    Or find.... (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by kdog on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:49:04 PM EST
    what you least expect.  Depends if you take the blinkers off.

    Pat Robertson is the one with the big pulpit and media empire...can you really blame people with a negative view of christianity when Robertson is the spokesman on the tv every night asking for donations and calling for assasinations, instead of the fine folks out building schools and feeding the hungry?  Or even the pope, sitting on a vault of precious jewels that could feed thousands.  Both these men have millions of followers, if you ask me they are the ones that should be pissed off.

    [ Parent ]

    Faith (1.00 / 1) (#162)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 21, 2007 at 10:10:52 PM EST
    SUO - Nicely put.

    et al - I find it amusing that, by and large, the same ones who snark at Fallwell and Robertson are the same ones who are never involved with the Salvation Army, or any number of small evangelic groups that are doing the things that SUO notes.


    [ Parent ]

    Where on Earth (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Al on Tue May 22, 2007 at 12:32:44 AM EST
    do you get that notion from?

    [ Parent ]
    I shop at Salvation Army.... (none / 0) (#193)
    by kdog on Tue May 22, 2007 at 12:16:17 PM EST
    I"m a sucker for a 50 cent pair of pants:)

    [ Parent ]
    The followers that is.... (none / 0) (#107)
    by kdog on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:50:09 PM EST
    should be pissed off.

    [ Parent ]
    How to recognize a Christian (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by Al on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:57:54 PM EST
    By their actions.

    [ Parent ]
    Al (1.00 / 1) (#161)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 21, 2007 at 09:55:15 PM EST
    How do you recognize a Moslem??

    Wouldn't they be just as kind, just as nice as a Christian?

    [ Parent ]

    You lost me, PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Al on Tue May 22, 2007 at 12:28:10 AM EST
    Is there a point to this?

    [ Parent ]
    Very strange (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by HK on Mon May 21, 2007 at 12:50:05 PM EST
    "training a new generation of lawyers, judges, educators, policymakers and world leaders in law from the perspective of an explicitly Christian worldview."

    I find it very strange that the Rev. Falwell would back such a scheme when so many things about his life and views were decidedly unChristian.

    Another story: I went to a Catholic university (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by oculus on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:31:15 PM EST
    law school shortly after Roe v. Wade decision.  Had to enter the building by means of a door topped by a cross and orb.  Con law class spent lots of time on Roe v. Wade, but the Catholic church's position on abortion was never mentioned. I never felt that the church had any influence on my law school eduction.  

    I had a somewhat similar experience (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 02:44:45 PM EST
    My constitutional law professor was counsel for Lawyers for Life, has assisted in the drafting of state legislation restricting abortion access, and also is a big poohbah in canon law circles.  You couldn't have discerned his personal feelings about Roe v. Wade from his class lectures on the subject, however.  He presented as objective an analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the opinion as you could ever have wanted to hear.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not that worried about this issue. (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by oculus on Mon May 21, 2007 at 03:58:01 PM EST
    Graduates of Liberty will have a hard time getting a job, as will grads. of the Pizza Mogul law school, as the premise of these law schools  is now well-known.    

    jobs (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by eric on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:16:50 PM EST
    Let's hope.  Ironically though, the one place where these zealots do seem to get employment is in government in this republican administration.  There, they can do a lot more damage than if they were taking in $120K at Skadden Arps.

    [ Parent ]
    Speaking of academic freedom (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:24:58 PM EST
    And the Pizza Mogul School of Law, it looks like Ave Maria's melting down like a fine mozzarella over academic freedom issues.

    [ Parent ]
    Can't access this possibly subversive link (none / 0) (#132)
    by oculus on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:29:13 PM EST
    at present.

    [ Parent ]
    Nolo (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Peaches on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:05:26 PM EST
    do you really think it would be an appropriate exercise of academic or religious freedom for a law professor at state-run school to call a gay person a deviant to their face in the classroom?

    You asked this of Decon, but let me ask you this. Ward Churchill called those who died on 9/11 "Little Eichmans." He was a professor at a state run University. Should his speech be protected?

    I don't think that any university, state-run or not, would allow its professors to call one of his or her students derogatory names. However, the free speech of professors and students is generally protected and saying a lifestyle or practice is immoral generally falls under the heading of free speech, although as Ward Churchill found out, there are also limitations and sometimes remarks are so offensive that other criticisms from the surrounding become so incessant that even it the speech is protected, there will be fallout that is detrimental to the practicer of this offensive free speech.


    apples and peaches (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:19:59 PM EST
    Ward Churchill's statement was not a direct attack on a student in the classroom.  It's not particularly illuminating of the question I was trying to explore, which is whether any of the conduct Decon listed in his post might (or might not) be appropriate in a classroom setting.

    What an academician studies, opines on or advocates for outside the classroom is another matter, and I agree it's entitled to a whole lot more leeway.

    [ Parent ]

    fair enough (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Peaches on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:21:32 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I don't think decon is capable (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:30:04 PM EST
    of seeing the distinction.

    [ Parent ]
    nolo (1.00 / 1) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 21, 2007 at 05:06:17 PM EST
    Somebody correct me, but I think Churchill's statement was in the classroom??

    Anybody??

    [ Parent ]

    I thought it was in a paper or essay (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Peaches on Tue May 22, 2007 at 09:58:29 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It was in an essay (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by nolo on Tue May 22, 2007 at 10:05:34 AM EST
    A useful recap of the whole thing can be found here.

    [ Parent ]
    bingo (none / 0) (#128)
    by eric on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:26:00 PM EST
    Right.  It wasn't a personal insult to students sitting there.

    And getting back to my "story" I just want to make it clear that it wasn't a case where the professor called someone a deviant.  Rather, it was a case where the professor was teaching, as part of the lecture, that out-of-wedlock births are deviant.

    It was a de facto attack, though, because the student that I know does happen to have a kid and isn't married to the father.

    Anyway, i know, i know, Objection relevence, credibility, etc.

    [ Parent ]

    Not for nothing eric (none / 0) (#144)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:42:45 PM EST
    It was a de facto attack, though, because the student that I know does happen to have a kid and isn't married to the father.
    but now your friend's cred is completely shot.

    Now she has motive to misquote and/or mischaracterize, whether consciously or not, her prof's statement.

    Also, it looks to me like you contribute this "statement" to the Catholic-ness of the University.

    If you could show us something that even hints that the Catholic Church teaches the idea that children of unwed parents are "deviants" you might actually be onto something.

    [ Parent ]

    I did not mean (none / 0) (#141)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:39:04 PM EST
     that a teacher should not be subject to discipline for a direct verbal assault on a student. I can see where my saying  "calling a gay man deviant" could be misconstrued and I should have written "calling homosexuality deviant behavior."

      If a prof said " you're a deviant"  that is different than if a student (gay or not)  was offended by a teacher labeling homosexuality deviant behavior in a remark not directed against the student.

      I'm not advocating abuse of authority to make personal attacks on students.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Ironically, (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by nolo on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:52:05 PM EST
    It looks like one of these schools (Ave Maria) is having its own problems with academic freedom.  And so it goes.  Live by the ideological sword, and the ideological sword just might cut off your accreditation.

    [ Parent ]
    Asking how certain (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by jondee on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:28:45 PM EST
    schools get accredited isnt the same thing as advocating their active oppression, suppression etc. Period.

    This not-so-subtle distinction is apparently lost on those who live to rabidly "deconstruct" TL Stalinists in-our-midst. Uncle Jim would be proud.

    Or (1.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:40:55 PM EST
     pretending that the only conceivable implication isn't that such schools should not be accredited is such willful obtuseness as to be absurd.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Decon (1.00 / 1) (#151)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 21, 2007 at 05:02:21 PM EST
    Hey, you gotta understand. That's just Jondee being Jondee.

    [ Parent ]
    We'll (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by jondee on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:42:29 PM EST
    call it The War On Christian Schools. Could be another big wedge issue.

    You joke (1.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:45:47 PM EST
     but fail to see how this type of unalloyed bigotry and intolerance CAN BE EXPLOITED  on the Right by those who try to make it seem as if this type of thinking exemplifies liberal thought in this country when in fact, I hope, it is a position held only by a warped and disaffected fringe element that wants to "wage war" on religion.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Where have you been? (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Sailor on Mon May 21, 2007 at 11:17:39 PM EST
    You joke ... but fail to see how this type of unalloyed bigotry and intolerance CAN BE EXPLOITED  on the Right
    It doesn't matter what anyone who disagrees with the Wrong says, they'll just spin it their way. And the MSM will treat dobson, falwell, coulter, malkin like they are actual reps of Christians. And then actual Christians will see the MSM stories and believe it.

    Opps, sorry, I fell for the concern troll again.

    Jeez, my bad.

    BTW, can I see a show of hands of folks commenting about this who are ordained?

    [ Parent ]

    What type (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by jondee on Mon May 21, 2007 at 04:59:59 PM EST
    of debate with and critique of the Fundamentalist Right -- in the interests of accuracy, the subjects of the