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David Broder Speaks For Carl Levin and Barack Obama

Carl Levin and Barack Obama must be pleased to have gotten the David Broder Seal of Approval:

From the start, Democrats ought to concede one big point: Absent any readiness on their part to cut off funds to the troops in Iraq, those forces will be there as long as George Bush wants them to remain. Once that point is conceded, Bush should be called upon to pay some attention to the Democrats' demands -- and the public opinion that supports them.

Levin and Obama are one step ahead of you Broder:

We're not going to vote to cut funding, period," Levin said. "But what we should do, and we're going to do, is continue to press this president to put some pressure on the Iraqi leaders to reach a political settlement."

Obama is not going to play chicken, he'll just be chicken. Of course, as Matt Yglesias points out, bargaining with the Decider is just plain ridiculous.

This is the Broder/Levin/Obama plan:

in light of Bush's stubborn intransigence, the Democrats should basically give in to Bush's demands, in exchange for which Bush will continue to implement Bush's war policy absent formal fetters but will suddenly start doing so in the manner of a mature, serious person rather than, say, George W. Bush . . .

This is politically stupid to boot, not to mention unacceptable policy. But Broder has spoken, Obama is pleased.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Broder, Obama, and Levin (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:18:32 AM EST
    live in a bizarro world where Democrats somehow own the war. . .if they refuse to fund or otherwise set a deadline.

    I really don't understand the mental gymanstics it took for them to get to that. It seems perfectly obvious to me that we will own the war if we cooperate with the President and give him the money he wants without any restrictions.

    andgarden (1.00 / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:42:24 AM EST
    The Democrats approved the start. That means they are part of it. That means they "own the war" just as much as the Repubs.

    Levin is trying to prevent the loss of the war being "owned by the Democrats."

    The current actions, etc., of the Far Left Demos has changed what should have been a shoo in for whoever runs on the Demo ticket in '08 to a 50-50 affair that is rapidly tilting towards the Repubs.

    Why do I care? Because we have some rather serious social issues that are begging to be worked on, and the Left is insuring, again, that they aren't going to be.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:50:09 AM EST
    Political Idiots (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:19:32 AM EST
    How are you doing on your support for Obama today?

    Parent
    Still can't help but like him (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:23:35 AM EST
    but I suppose I'm in a "remember him for what I thought he was" stage. Anyway, I'm not at the point of giving money, and it looks like my Pennsylvania primary vote won't matter, so I think I'll duck out until we have our nominee.

    Parent
    I am leaning towards Dodd (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:25:03 AM EST
    HE has no chance but you reward good behavior.

    Parent
    I do like Dodd (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:27:56 AM EST
    but I was called crazy a couple of months ago for even mentioning his name. I think I'll spend the next six months waiting in vain for Gore.

     I know it's a heresy, but I honestly believe that Joe Biden, for all his faults, could walk away with '08. So could Richardson.  

    Parent

    I like Dodd, I like Edwards as well. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 09:30:33 AM EST
    Edwards rubs me the wrong way (none / 0) (#23)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:11:45 AM EST
    He's not being upfront about his Senate record.

    Parent
    That doesn't make sense (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Mark Adams on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:00:29 AM EST
    after all, his record is recorded.  It's um...on the record.

    Quite obvious that he's not the same candidate he was in '04, and has been saying all the right things since -- on the war, Fox News, Katrina, poverty.

    Parent

    Yes, "saying" the right things (none / 0) (#56)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:29:28 AM EST
    But unlike others, I really do care about his record. He is the least liberal of the major candidates.

    I'll vote for him if I have to, but not in the primary. He's a decent politician, and he's running to the left because he sees space there.

    Parent

    Makes perfect sense (none / 0) (#86)
    by Elise on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 01:46:54 PM EST
    I haven't seen him repeat the fact that he was a member of the DLC in quite a while...and yet, while he was in the Senate, he was.

    What a makeover he's had these last two years. You'll forgive me if I don't buy hook line and sinker the fact that he's so drastically changed and become SO progressive.

    Instead we have Obama and Clinton who have never been DLC members...who have incredibly liberal voting records by comparison...but we'll point out the fact that they aren't "progressive" enough for us because they don't repeat what we say back at us enough times in a day.

    You're right, Edwards has been SAYING the right things for the past few years. It's a shame he wasn't always DOING the right things when he was in a position to actually DO them.

    Parent

    Oooooh (none / 0) (#89)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:06:19 PM EST
    tearing down a Dem Elise?

    How does that square with your previous critiques of me?

    Look what's happened here - you have chosen your candidate, Obama, and the kool aid has been ingested.

    The double standards, the clap louder for your guy mentality, the whole nine yards.

    I've been there. But that election does not start for me till next year.

    I am not for anyone really. Heck, I was for Vilsack and now I am for Dodd. Yo u figure it out yet? My thinking on this?

    Parent

    True enough about Vilsack and Dodd, but... (none / 0) (#91)
    by cal11 voter on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:32:21 PM EST
    you weren't for Vilsack very long.  I know it was not your fault.  :-)

    Parent
    Just so you know, (none / 0) (#104)
    by Elise on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:09:13 PM EST
    I haven't chosen my candidate. I still haven't made up my mind. I happen to like all 3 Democratic frontrunners...AND Richardson...although Richardson would be my VP choice.

    Parent
    "Leaning towards Dodd" (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:43:06 PM EST
    But I'll bet he doesn't give you the thrill Vilsack did.

    Parent
    Charisma doesn't eqaul intelligence (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by TexDem on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:21:55 AM EST
    My wife met Obama about a week or so and was duly impressed with his charisma and his ability of name recall, but she has stated that Edwards is her guy, and meeting Obama didn't change her position. She has gotten to meet several prominent political personalities and will meet even more over the next 15-16 months.

    As a qualifier I should say that my wife is the daughter of a career diplomat and has met world leaders at a very young age, whether at a birthday party for Marcos' children in the Philippines or talking with Menachem Begin at an Embassy Party in Tel Aviv. So it takes a lot to impress her.

    Parent

    Dems won't own it if they pass a clean bill... (none / 0) (#12)
    by cal11 voter on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:56:16 AM EST
    after a Bush veto of legislation trying to change the course of the Iraq War.  Dems will have done what the majority of the American public wanted them to try and do.  Maybe that is the sentiment.

    Parent
    Sure they will (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 09:00:12 AM EST
    IF they do not end the war.

    A clean bill till March 31, 2008 is the plan.

    NO funds after March 31, 2008 is the plan.

    Parent

    Big Tent (3.00 / 1) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 09:14:27 AM EST
    The Demos can not walk away, no matter what they do.

    What you are trying to do is convince them that they can.

    Levin, and some of the other adults, are speaking out trying to stop the lemming like rush over the cliff of "we didn't support."

    Most of your posts are on politics. I get amazed watching you do this.

    And I confess it makes me happy, because I believe the lack of support by the Far Left Demos has been extremely destructive to the efforts of our military.

    Parent

    Your comment is (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 09:23:20 AM EST
    not comprehensible to me.

    I do not understand what you are saying.

    Parent

    I don't understand either. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 09:28:17 AM EST
    For the group (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:43:34 AM EST
    My point is simple.

    BTD calls himself a Demo, but in fact he is basically a single issue person. He is anti-war.

    I have no problem with that and I am not "attacking" or whatever when I point that out, nor does his position make him a bad person in my mind.

    Therefore his "strategies," for lack of a better word, are devoted to ending the war. He thinks the Demos can do that by doing what he wants them to do.

    Levin, and some other Demos, have probably long recognized that defunding the war, setting a date, etc., is not a winnable position. He is now saying, we aren't going to do that.

    Levin understands that, as many have noted, the defunding bill(s) is like playing chicken. What most on the Left do not understand is:

    1. The voter will not like those who play.

    2. The Demos will be shown as the aggressor who started the game.

    3. Bush will be like the reluctant hero who must make the best of a bad situation.

    Like it or not, you are dealing with a man that it is said was a great poker player in college and has a SAT of 1260.

    Respecting your enemy is always correct.

    Parent

    Have read BTD for a really long time (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:05:42 AM EST
    He has been devoting a large portion of his efforts to the issue of the Iraq War lately because someone must do it and very few high profile bloggers are willing to go out on the limb to address it.  They talk each other and scare each other out of taking a firm stand.  He is simply demonstrating to everyone that the Iraq War issue isn't a limb, it is a branch on the tree of American life and will support all of our weight.  Single issue Demo he is NOT.

    Parent
    Tracy (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:53:01 AM EST
    I can only judge based on what I have seen.

    Your comment is noted.

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#68)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:59:53 AM EST
    I almost feel civil toward you today ;)

    Parent
    Tracy (none / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 05:46:10 PM EST
    No mad desire to spank me?

    Sigh....

    Parent

    Utter and complete nonsense (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:18:04 AM EST
    "I believe the lack of support by the Far Left Demos has been extremely destructive to the efforts of our military."

    Then what must you think of the Bush Administration neglect of wounded vets, putting soldiers in a war without a semblance of a sound strategy or adequate training or preparation, encouraging the enemy with mentally deficient use of culturally inflammatory language, continual denial of the situation on the ground, no robust plan to reconstruct Iraq in the first place, and on and on and on.

    When Tent says your comment in incomprehensible, he's being kind.

    Parent

    Jim doesn't support the troops (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:52:10 AM EST
    That is clear from his unyielding support of Bush regardless of how Bush is hurting our military, his inability to recognize any facts which show Bush lied, that Iraq is not part of the so called WOT, but is a civil war, and his inability to figure out that leaving Afghanistan was a mistake. He doesn't like personal insults but peppers his posts with phrases like "adults" as though those who disagree with him are not. He doesn't seem to understand that is condescending at best and very insulting. You can point these things out to him, but he doesn't seem to remember anything the very next day.

    Jim bases his votes on national security and votes for the party and president which has been the most destructive of our national security. I don't understand it either, but there you go. Sometimes you get help you don't really need as BB once sang in a different context.



    Parent

    Molly (1.00 / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:08:08 PM EST
    I understand that you are also an anti-war person, and that you will make any argument that you think hurts Bush. So be it.

    You have many strawmen positions.

    1. The problems with military hospitals, etc., have been around forever. If it was important to the Demos/Left they could have been working the issue years ago. That they didn't means that they are as guilty as the Repubs for a lack of oversight.

    2. Your use of the "lied" word has become sooooo tiresome and so demonstratably wrong that I find it amusing that you still use it. Give up.

    3. You are free to call me on my snarks, and I am free to call you on yours. The use of the word "adults" above indicates that I think the attempts by the Left to end the war by defunding to be juvenile. That is an opinion that is judgemental. Sorry if it bothers you.

    4. Your continual carping about leaving Afghanistan indicates that, as I noted in my comment to you about the subject, you have no concept of the strategy involved, and how the "cost-benefit" ratio is employed. You think that we should have fought a bloody war with lots of US soldiers killed because we could not use our technical  advantages. All to gain control of a country that has no real strategic value. Thank God Bush thought otherwise.

    BTW - I would bet that if we had stayed, and if we were loosing lives in a large and continual number you would be criticizing Bush...

    Turn the lights out, Molly. The party us over.

    Parent

    Jim (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 04:08:20 PM EST
    I'd be insulted, but I am used to you.

    1. I didn't bring up the hospitals, but now that you mention it, Bush is repsonsible for that too. I am not sure how you come up with the Democrats are responsible for it. I'd point out under President Clinton VA funding (as one example of providing medical care for the troops) and VA quality went up. I'd also point out the GOP was in control of Congress since 1994 and oversight or lack thereof should be laid at there door.

    2. You have never shown I was wrong in stating Bush lied. If anything as the facts have come to light, I have been proven correct.

    3. Just stop being a card carrying member of the conservative cult of vicitimization.

    4. You are wrong (as usual). If Bush had stayed in Afghanistan, I would only fault him for poor performance there (which seems inevitable given Bush's track record). Assuming for the sake of argument  you are right, Afghanistan has no strategic value and that you and Bush were right to "cut and run", how do you explain Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9-11 or the so called WOT? Oil?  

    Does this mean you are in favor of leaving a country a failed state where Islamic extremist can hide out and plot future 9-11's? I'm shocked! Shocked! Please don't help the US on National Security matters anymore!



    Parent

    Molly (1.00 / 1) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 05:59:41 PM EST
    You are right. It was Dadler who brought up the hospitals. I can hardly tell you apart when it comes to bringing strawmen re the War On Terror.

    VA funding has increased every year under Bush. Quit trying to play politics with everything. And you don't have to be in the majority to bring things up... I remember many "fake" hearings, etc., held by the Demos.

    And you never proven that he did. But I admire your attempt to act as if trying to  prove a negative should be a rational act.

    And I love you admitting that you are so biased you prejudge every move he makes. Wow. So...so... Leftist....

    And I also love your calling a rational strategic decision, "cut and run." It is often said that the Left likes only battles and wars that do not help the US.

    You also have a poor memory, or else you just make up things. My comment re Afghanistan was that we could go back at any time and do what was needed to be done, again using our advantages in technology to kill as many of the enemy as possible with the lowest cost in US lives.

    Evidently your plan would be to fight bloody battles in which we had no advantages.

    Parent

    A failed state (none / 0) (#105)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:14:53 PM EST
    where Islamic extremist can plot against the US is is a rational strategic decision? I thought you and Bush labeled that "cutting and running" which endangered the safety of everyone.

    Tell me again how Iraq was a rational "strategery" decision?

    Parent

    dadler et al (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:01:40 AM EST
    As you are well aware, my position is that words, demonstrations, political confusion, etc., that is demonstrated by any country engaged in a conflict with another "enemy" will improve the morale of the "enemy" and thus aid the "enemy."

    That has been true forever, but in today's world of global communications and instant communications it is especilly true.

    I can not believe that anyone fails to misunderstand that.

    Especially those who like to speak of the power of the Internet, etc., etc.

    I confess to being conflicted over what could be a "freedom of speech" issue, and no where have I called for suppression of any type.

    It has been my hope that the concept of responsibility to your fellow citziens, the country and those who fight would prevent these comments/demonstrations, etc., that I deplore.

    My hopes are totally unrealized, leaving me to believe that there is "something" out there that has infected some people to the point that they care more for winning political power than they do for winning the war.

    I make no assignment of anyone to the "some people" I refer to above. I only say, if the shoe fits, wear it.

    You will note that I did not refer to the various straw horses you ran out of the barn.

    Parent

    Child, you need to take (none / 0) (#27)
    by dkmich on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:28:03 AM EST
    your yoyo out of your ear or is that your sucker?
    I sent Levin an e-mail and told him he blew it.  Levin and Stabenow, Michigan is such a wonder.  

    Parent
    dkmich (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:45:23 AM EST
    And having done so, that has made your position right?

    Who knew?

    Parent

    I happen to be with BTD on this one. (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by dkmich on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:25:31 AM EST
    I think we need to get out of Iraq sooner than later.  I think Levin pulled a Lieberman and undercut Feingold and Reid.  I think Dems need to refuse to fund the war and start talking about funding the withdrawal.  If they don't change the funding goal, what will be the difference?  They cannot fund this war.  It is illegal, immoral, being paid for with a credit card, a distraction from what should be important, and lost.  Why is that so hard for people to understand?  The people who want to "fund the troops" are generally the same fools who got bullied into voting for the thing in the first place.  I want out, now.  BTD is right.  The only power Dems have is the power of the purse.  Everything else belongs to Bush and the rest of the chickenhawks.

    Parent
    If their Iraq War position an issue of... (none / 0) (#42)
    by cal11 voter on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:06:45 AM EST
    conscience or political tactics/strategy?  If it is conscience, I would be relunctant to criticize.  If it is politics, well the more constructive criticism they receive the better for them.

    Parent
    How do you tell the difference?? (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:09:35 PM EST
    It is up to Obama and Levin to tell us. n/t (none / 0) (#92)
    by cal11 voter on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:34:49 PM EST
    Good morning all (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:29:14 AM EST
    Working hard this morning keeping myself "up" when having to face such things head on.  Would much rather face them head on though because if you attempt to find a kinder gentler way to address things with BushCo you just end up flat on your back with a boot heel imprint on your face sooooooooooo here we are.  Not sure what to make of Levin but when it comes to Obama I think it is once again best to just face it head on.  Friend Barack, at this rate you will not be President of the United States.  I was shocked last night to watch CNN and find out that Republican Presidential Candidates are finding more of a solid following base than our Democrats.  There are many many facets to being politically affective.  We all adore intellect and conscience but you have to bring your glands too Barack.  Just ask Madeleine Albright what happens when you walk into the Old Boys Club and toss your ovaries into the ante.  You are at that point where you are going to have to ante up.  I am afraid of you Barack.  I'm afraid that if you gain my party's nomination you will John Kerry me and barely carry the vote.  Being a great statesmen is a fine thing, a very fine thing, but it isn't everything and it isn't the whole package when you leave out your package.

    P.S.  It is taking every gland in our soldiers bodies to keep them alive in Baghdad, how can you just keep forgetting to bring a few of yours when you come to the War Table?

    The kicker is (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:36:23 AM EST
    it is extremely bad politics.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Mark Adams on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:08:16 AM EST
    It is the Party-within-a-party-line.  The DLC has come out approving this tactic, Obama has made his position indistinguishable from Hillary, and now it gets the Broder seal of approval.

    Not only is it bad politics coming from the playbood of bad politicians, it's wrong and morally indefensible.

    As a strategy to gain the president, it puts gaining the White House as a larger priority than not killing people.  Slince it and dice it any way you want, it's reprehensible -- and if that's the position of our nominee, we deserve another GOP president.  What difference would it make.

    Parent

    But Broder agrees with you. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by cal11 voter on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:52:05 AM EST
    Broder says that, absent Congress cutting off funds, the troops will remain in Iraq.  

    P.S.: Agree with you in part that is. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by cal11 voter on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:53:12 AM EST
    He is for the troops staying in Iraq (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 08:58:44 AM EST
    and for not defunding, as are Levin and Obama.

    He agrees with me that the Broder/Obama/Levin plan does not end the war.

    That is why I oppose them.

    Parent

    I cannot tell you. . . (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 09:45:01 AM EST
    what a great help it is to someone like me, a Democrat who occasionally strays and votes for such wicked Republicans as Lowell Weicker and Mike Bloomberg, to have such a clear example of Party unity set out in front of me.

    I now see the error of my ways.  I'll do as the diarist suggests and work hard to split the Democratic party into as many ineffectual, mutually antagonistic splinters as possible.  Anyone have a crowbar I can borrow?

    Hmmm (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 09:46:28 AM EST
    I see, so you see criticizing Dems as the equivalent of voting for and supporting Republicans.

    Rather not smart of you.

    Parent

    I really think (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:10:50 AM EST
    you're going to a bad place on this.  Looking at your stories on the front page of this blog there are several attacking prominent Democrats and none attacking Republicans -- with a number of other issues thrown in as well.

    Did you read David Sirota's paeon to Richard Viguerie a couple of months ago on dKos (before you left, I think)?  He was celebrating not Viguerie's expertise at direct mail, nor his ability to motivate people.  What he really respects is Viguerie's sense of movement purity that is currently helping to tear apart the Republican Party.  He argues for a like minded movement of the left and he seems to want to get there by skipping over the twenty or so years of power the Republicans had between ascension and dissolution.

    This unnattractive purity movement we have (and that you, sadly, seem to be signing on to) will bear no good fruit either for Democrats as a whole or for the positions it claims to espouse.  The coded attacks on good, liberal, mainstream Democrats ("feet of clay", for instance, means "coward") -- what's that in aid of?

    And when it comes to Obama, the "movement" is being used in what seems to be a personal vendetta on Sirota's part over the Lamont campaign.  Why you've signed on to that is beyond me.  For instance, the material you link as a demonstration that "Levin and Obama must be glad to have gotten the Broder seal of approval" (your own blog post) contains no quotes or support at all for including Obama in Levin's comments.

    Levin may not have the perfect position on Iraq but his statements do have one virtue -- they are a correct and factual statement of the situation.  Of course you're free to argue with him about whether or not that's the best position, or whether it can and should be changed, etc.  Your advice to him in your post ("Shut Up") is not, however, advancing any argument.

    You should be quite familiar with the results of this kind of party splitting -- in New York the decision of a small but influential number of Democrats to sit out the 2001 mayoral race handed control of the city to Republicans for eight years (and possibly more).  While I have no problem with that result (having voted for the Republican) I would have thought you do.

    Instead, I see you've learned from your mistakes and you intend to repeat them exactly.

    Parent

    Purity is for water filters (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:24:09 AM EST
    Rationality, intellect, courage, imagination are not purity, they are indespensible to a useful political party, and seem to be all the things you don't have time for.

    Levin said less than nothing.  He announced loudly and clearly that he is afraid to do anything that actually IS something.  He might as well have yelled from the top of the hills, "I am empty of ideas and initiative!  And the party must stay that way as well!"

    How you can translate this into rallying the party in a good way I have no idea.

    Parent

    Actually. . . (none / 0) (#44)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:10:42 AM EST
    what Levin did is give a clear and accurate statement of sentiment in the US Senate at this time.  You may not like that sentiment, I may not like that sentiment, but that's the way it is.

    For that you claim that he is devoid of rationality, intellect, courage, and imagination and presumabely that you are defined by those characteristics.  I don't know either you or him so obviously I can't judge whether, in the broad sense, you're right in either case.  But certainly there's no evidence of either in the argument being made about Levin -- an argument which boils down to (in BTD words) "Shut Up".

    Parent

    I didn't tell prominent Democrats (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:29:28 AM EST
    to be prominent Democrats, they chose that and they chose to put themselves and their positions out there for inspection, debate, and vote.  It is too ridiculous to insist that we all be good little children and never question those that are "prominent".  That is how America came to be in this mess we are in right now.  That's just silliness to me, particularly when we are in the early stages of the presidential race.  That's what the early stages are for.

    Parent
    I have no problem. . . (none / 0) (#34)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:44:39 AM EST
    with "criticizing those who are prominent".  In fact, that's exactly what I'm engaging in right now.  Please, hold your applause.  No need to thank me.

    But if I have problems with Obama's position you're not going to see me take valuable front page real estate on a leading liberal blog and call him a coward or someone who wants continued war.  You might see me write something like "Is Obama's position the fastest way to end the war?"  But not "Why Obama is a coward."

    Parent

    Between the revolutionaries and the (none / 0) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:10:57 AM EST
    evolutionaries I would say that BTD is a revolutionary.  A balanced society that works requires both even though it is a bit painful for some at times.

    Parent
    He isn't though. . . (none / 0) (#81)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:51:37 PM EST
    not in his politics (I think he'd happily support Clinton, for instance) nor in his policy prescriptions -- which, if there were a revolution, would make him one of the archetypical first-against-the-wallers.

    Parent
    I understand nothing that you said ;( (none / 0) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    He's not (none / 0) (#83)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 01:06:19 PM EST
    a revolutionary (I think he'd agree with me on that statement).

    Parent
    Seems to me that when he chooses to (none / 0) (#84)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 01:38:42 PM EST
    be revolutionary he is.  He picks his battles as anyone who has the capacity to be a revolutionary must.  I'm glad he chose this one.  This is a personal battle I face every day.  I stopped reading and supporting many on the left side of the web when they left me high and dry as a soldier's wife and started playing games with my family's life and well being without conscience.  Strategy is for Monopoly and other such things not made of flesh and blood, not the lives of my family members.

    Parent
    Revolutionary. . . (none / 0) (#90)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:31:34 PM EST
    and incendiary are different things.

    I stopped reading and supporting many on the left side of the web when they left me high and dry as a soldier's wife and started playing games with my family's life and well being without conscience.  Strategy is for Monopoly and other such things not made of flesh and blood, not the lives of my family members.

    I'm sorry you feel that way.  I don't have any family members or friends in harm's way in or because of Iraq and therefore it's hard for me to have any visceral sense of what you're going through.

    BTD is convinced that he has a realistic way to end the war quickly.  I'm not convinced that his way is realistic, for a variety of reasons and I think it could possibly do more harm than good.  I hope that does not induce you to put me in the class of people who are "playing games with my family's life and well being without conscience".  If it does, I'm sorry -- but I'm going to trust my own judgement on this issue.

    Strategy is for winning.  If Bush had had one we might have gotten out of this mess sooner and with less damage.  BTD would not, I think, argue against the idea of strategy -- only that his is best.

    Parent

    I suppose it is all about perception (none / 0) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 03:17:13 PM EST
    I never experience BTD as incendiary.  I have thought many many hours and days about how to bring this war to an end because my heart is on the line here.....not strategy, not politics, my children's father is being physically sacrificed for political reasons in hopes to win out over a lying weasel of a president from hell.  My husband is willing to risk his well being in order that we can continue this great experiment without bullies trying to bully in on us, can you offer him any real aid in his hour of need?  He would be there for you in yours in an instant without question.

    Parent
    Who can and might stop the Iraq Debacle? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:31:24 AM EST
    I am aiming at those that might do something.

    The election is NEXT YEAR! The Debacle rages on NOW!

    I'll be all Kum ba YA NEXT YEAR!. Not now.

    Parent

    Well then (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:12:50 AM EST
    You have to do a better job of explaining how your course of action ends the war.

    It seems that if someone points out that your course of action divides Dems, you're all like "Who Cares??!!!  This is about ending the war, dammit!!"  Ok.  Fair Play.  Seriously.  If that's the goal, it's a worthy goal if you actually do think you can achieve that.

    But then someone points out that playing chicken, a standoff, a more aggressive course of action, whatever you want to call it, won't actually end the war, and then the explanation seems to be "Well, this has political benefits as well."

    Please.

    1.  Explain to us how your plan ends the war.  In practical terms.   Lets even pretend Dems are united behind your plan.  I want you to say "After this, this and this...  This is where Bush finally gives in and brings troops home.  And then you'll all be telling me how right I was."  Just think.

    If you can't explain that, then you have to concede the main pillar of your argument is Political repercussions.  And you should do away with the "I'm the only one who really wants to end the war, that's all I care about" Posturing.

    Then...  If the argument for your plan is by and large a Political one, OK.  Fine....

    2.  Explain to us how half the Dems voting against the other half of the Dem's proposals pays off Politically for the Democrats in the long run.

    Parent

    Because (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Mark Adams on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:19:42 AM EST
    if you fight, and tie up the funding unless there are condition, eventually the clock will run out and Bush will have no money to play soldier.

    Endorsing the Reid-Feingold bill would be a start.  John Edwards says it doesn't go far enough.  Hillary and Obama are running from it.

    Parent

    if you fight and tie up money (none / 0) (#59)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:37:40 AM EST
    bush will keep the troops in iraq anyway, and then blame democrats for stuff like walter reed.

    right now, he has no one to blame but himself.

    Parent

    Edwards is not in the Senate. We know how... (none / 0) (#93)
    by cal11 voter on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:40:23 PM EST
    he voted when he was in the Senate.  He's admitted it was a mistake and apologized, I know.  Judge a person by what they do moreso than by what they say.

    Parent
    Even if the Democrats in the Senate can't (none / 0) (#49)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:22:47 AM EST
    end the war (and they can), they must at least give the appearance of trying to do so because that is good politics. Using Republican language about defunding, especially when you admit that you're not willing to do it, is NOT GOOD POLITICS.

    Parent
    It can? (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:34:53 AM EST
    How?  It's not a rhetorical question.

    Oh,  and I don't buy the idea that once the money runs out, it is bush who puts the troops in harm's way without funding if he keeps them there.

    he doesn't actually want that to happen.

    that's a framing/marketing issue we will lose, mostly because people are smart enough to know that the president isn't putting troops in harm's way without funding/support because that's what he wants to do, but because congress (and with most of america) won't support his decision to keep troops there.  and people will be smart enough and human enough to make that distinction and still answer "yes" to the poll question: do you want the troops brought home?

    that is the fundamental misreading of america committed by those endorsing the standoff.  if the money runs out and bush keeps them there, the ENTIRE GOVERNMENT will be blamed for that.  not just Bush.

    walking away from that standoff with most of america going "gosh, president troops must want our military to be defunded" is a pipe dream.

    Parent

    The Message (none / 0) (#61)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:49:40 AM EST
    is that Bush is holding the troops, along with the rest of America, hostage.

    Parent
    That's a good message (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:08:04 PM EST
    If I thought it would play anywhere besides a liberal blog, I'd be all for it.

    It's a great message.

    It's true.  Republicans start wars to create a self-perpetuating machine that holds the rest of america hostage.  I'm not debating that.

    Ok.  Let's get that out there.  Make it stick to the tune of 65% and then we can have our standoff.

    Parent

    See, (none / 0) (#78)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:11:41 PM EST
    I think they American people have bought this, or are about to. You are still living in 2005, and don't seem to have learned the lessons of last November.

    Parent
    No Politician ran on Defunding (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:19:33 PM EST
    It never came up, not one Democrat advocated for defunding.

    The issue of getting out of Iraq is relevant to 2006.

    The issue of getting out of Iraq by any means necessary is not.

    Show me a candidate that said "we must use the power of the purse to end the war" and then show me how people ran to that candidate, then i'll learn some lessons.

    cause i can show you a couple candidates who have said "we need to build bipartisan pressure to end the war," and how some people ran to that candidate.


    Parent

    Morally and ethically (none / 0) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:23:11 AM EST
    for the Democrats to not do everything in our political power to end the Iraq War causes them to sell their souls.  As humans we can cut corners in many areas but not in the blood bath area, defying science and the sociologists and getting more and more and more people killed every single day.  What are we to do with all these defiled numb sell out Democratic souls?  Once you have been so fundamentally numb and dysfunctional how can you hope to lead America to anything but more of the same horrors only wrapped in different shrouds.

    Parent
    Along with (none / 0) (#31)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:38:23 AM EST
    phrases like "the Amigo lobby" to describe hispanics, I hardly think using the phrase "the Kumbaya lobby" to describe candidates of African descent suggests a desire to work together.  It's cringeworthy.

    Parent
    'kumbaya lobby' imho, is reference to (none / 0) (#38)
    by seabos84 on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:52:30 AM EST
    the let's shut up and let's be happy and let's do what the big people tell us

    kind of people 'involved' in politics.

    I use 'involved' cuz in my 30 odd yrs of various community stuff, the kumbaya types don't last cuz the only debate and discussions they can handle are debates and discussions where everyone is agreeing with each other

    those personality traits are more tied to affluence than anything else, imho.

    rmm.

    Parent

    In addition. . . . (none / 0) (#32)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:40:39 AM EST
    I'll be all Kum ba YA NEXT YEAR!. Not now.

    This year is next year.  The 2001 New York experience should demonstrate that when you play the split-the-Dems game one year it's hard to play the let's-all-work-together game the next.

    Parent

    If you think that BTD is a purist (none / 0) (#51)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:23:46 AM EST
    in the Sirota mold, then you haven't been paying attention.

    Parent
    I have been paying attention. . . (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:49:40 AM EST
    and the evidence appears to me to be pretty clear.  However, I don't believe that BTD is irremediably so (unlike Sirota) -- certainly not on actual policy issues -- hence my attempt to reason with him.

    Parent
    Is it your position (none / 0) (#64)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:53:27 AM EST
    that we should fold on the issue of Iraq, because it simply isn't possible to draw down before the next president?

    I think that's the Pelosi/Levin/Obama argument, and that the timeline on the stupid supplemental was a sham.

    Parent

    in this particular case (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Stewieeeee on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:09:48 PM EST
    it's very much the same thing.

    not on a whole wide range of issues, but on this one issue, the attitude is pure sirota.

    it's all "everyone's a coward and helping republicans until they do what I say they should do."


    Parent

    Maybe (none / 0) (#79)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:15:17 PM EST
    but remember that Sirota is usually wrong, and BTD is usually right. I don't think we can apply a general model to methods.

    Parent
    I am so confused. (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by dkmich on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 10:31:36 AM EST
    We need to quit criticizing Dems so you can stop voting for Lowell Weicker and Mike Bloomberg?  I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to make you hit me.

    Parent
    I won't hit you. (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:24:06 AM EST
    Or call you a coward.  Or tell you to shut up.

    Just this -- people who live in glass houses ought not to throw stones.  

    BTD is working hard to tear down the only candidate who, at this admittedly early date, looks likely to challenge Clinton for the nomination.  This mirrors a position he took in 2001 which cost the Democrats an election.

    That's all fine.  But he also has a long history of criticising my support for a Republican in that very election.  It's true that ripping on Dems is not precisely the same as actively supporting Republicans.  But it's also true that the decision of the Bronx machine to sit out the 2001 election did far more than my one paltry vote to put Bloomberg in office.

    I see the same happening here with these needless personal attacks on Obama.  Sure, BTD will forget all about it if Obama is the nominee but the thousands of Democratic activists he'll have ginned up against Obama may not be so quick.

    To be clear, if I had to choose I would rather than BTD continue to attack me for my Republican votes and give up his vendetta against Obama.  That would be considerably more useful in electing a Democratic in '08 and I rather enjoy my occasional dust-ups with BTD.

    But his two positions appear to me to be logically inconsistent, and I hope he rethinks (at least) one of them.

    Parent

    It is too early in the race (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:27:17 AM EST
    to declare any candidate our only hope to challenge Clinton.

    Parent
    As I say. . . (none / 0) (#65)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:54:53 AM EST
    who, at this admittedly early date, looks likely to challenge Clinton for the nomination.

    However, barring a major blowout by either candidate, any prediction made today has to have Obama and Clinton as the major contenders -- two candidates who, I will point out, the so-called liberal blogosphere are trying to destroy politically.

    Parent

    Getting someone (none / 0) (#67)
    by Mark Adams on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:55:34 AM EST
    who is simply Clinton Lite is no bargain, and a distinction without a difference.

    Parent
    You won't get any sympathy or support (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by dkmich on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:28:10 AM EST
    from me on Obama.  I think he gets the empty suit award for 08.  I gave it to Edwards in 04.  

    Parent
    Is it that he isn't saying anything, or that he... (none / 0) (#97)
    by cal11 voter on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:48:41 PM EST
    isn't saying what you want him to say.  I think he's saying plenty and also listening plenty.  But his position advocacy could be stronger.

    Parent
    Democrats support for funding (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Mark Rainer on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:17:13 AM EST
    There is a logic to the Democrats support for the war as is pointed out in this article

    These statements demonstrate not merely a capitulation by the Democratic Party leadership to the Bush administration, but a declaration of solidarity with the goals and aims of US imperialism in Iraq. Levin and Schumer are proving that the whole "antiwar" show put on by the Democratic Congress--non-binding resolutions, war-spending bills with timetables and benchmarks--are an exercise in political duplicity.

    The essence of the policy of the Democratic Party is to calibrate its actions so as to provide all the material support required by the US military occupation of Iraq, while giving lip service to the popular antiwar sentiment that handed the Democrats control of Congress in the 2006 elections. They seek to accomplish two critical goals of the American ruling elite: maintaining the US grip on Iraq and its enormous oil wealth, and preventing the emergence of an effective movement against the war, which would of necessity have to break with the two-party system and adopt an independent political course.



    A response to the critiques (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:07:35 PM EST
    The first, don't attack Dems. Well,I never believed in that theory and prodded and critiqued Dems throughout 2005 and 2006 for a tougher stance on Iraq when the Beltway was urging focus on "corruption" and whatnot.

    I think the result of the 2006 election vindicated not just me but most of the Netroots. Interestingly, that view has been abandoned by just about all of the Netroots, from Move On down. I can not explain their thinking, it makes no sense to me.

    Second, on Iraq being Bush's war, it is SO LONG AS Dems are fighting to end it. Funding the war is not fighting to end it. It is a political loser to follow the Broder/Obama/Levin line. This sems obviosu to me as well.

    Third, on Kumbaya, I think of the phrase as a solidarity make nice shorthand. Certainly I am unaware of its cultural origins.

    AsI said, the time for Kumbaya is during the elections, not before.

    There are ways (none / 0) (#94)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:41:19 PM EST
    to attack and critique that are constructive and others that are destructive. Generally, attacking what someone does, arguing what the faults in their approach are, and offering alternatives is constructive. Attacking a person's character, intellect, or instincts tends to be destructive because those are things they can't really change.

    It really depends on keeping clear on what you're trying to accomplish. Do you want to take out the candidate or just correct their behavior?

    Parent

    You're right...Democrats suck. (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Elise on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 01:55:22 PM EST
    Why bother at all...

    You're leaning Dodd? Is that a joke?

    I'll tell you what I'm looking at here BTD...I'm looking at you jumping in the pool to insult and bash Obama every chance you get. Have fun with that plan...I'm not participating in it.

    And I love how the Democrats have to defund by the date YOU specified. This is yet another case of "if the Dems don't do what I want them to do by this date I'll punish them by helping Republicans every chance I get."

    Whatever.

    Who is the purist?

    Heh (none / 0) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:02:27 PM EST
    Oh no, poor widdle Obama is getting scuffed up because he caved in to Bush . . .

    As for my date certain, if you had been paying attention, one of the criticisms I faced was NOT picking a date certain. MaryB gave me a hard time about it.

    But let's be clear the date certain has been picked - BY HARRY REID!! You heard of him Elise?

    You are part of the clap louder brigade I see.

    Enjoy.

    Parent

    Molly (4.00 / 0) (#103)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 09:57:18 PM EST
    Actually Afghanistan IS important in that it is the shortest route for the trans afghan natural gas pipelines that are under construction by the transnationals. This will bring the LNG from the massive central asian fields to Karachi for storage and distribution. If you google a map of the US bases and a map of the pipeline, the evidence is clear. Our troops are in Afghanistan to protect the pipelines. NATO is there to fight the Taliban.

    Broder blows it in the first quote (none / 0) (#57)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:31:30 AM EST
    From the start, Democrats ought to concede one big point: Absent any readiness on their part to cut off funds to the troops in Iraq, those forces will be there as long as George Bush wants them to remain. Once that point is conceded, Bush should be called upon to pay some attention to the Democrats' demands -- and the public opinion that supports them.

    Now the bold is mine, because it begs the question:

    What in the name of Jesus do they expect to accomplish with fellatious statements like that?

    I have no interest (none / 0) (#62)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:52:35 AM EST
    in defending, or even reading David Broder.  My goal is to defend respectable, solidly liberal Democratic candidates against charges of cowardice and worse.

    "Begs the question" does not mean what you think it means.

    The term "fellatious" is either intended to be "fallacious" or is an extremely clever insult which, with your permission, I will use myself sometime.

    Parent

    Ok, so your position is (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 11:55:22 AM EST
    "we lost on funding and Iraq, so shut up about it already"? If so, then sorry, but that's just deeply immoral. It's also not an electoral winner (cf Kerry 2004).

    Parent
    Nope. (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:02:08 PM EST
    I'm happy to have people argue for cutting off funding -- I support it myself.

    My position is:

    1. No calling Democratic Presidential nominees "cowards".

    2. No suggesting that a difference of opinion on what's realistic mean that the other guy is "pro-war" or "wants the war to continue".

    3. No suggesting that accurately summing up the political situation is "surrender".

    4. Liberal blogs should feature articles attacking Republicans, not Democrats.

    5. No criticizing LarryInNYC under any circumstances.

    I'm willing to concede point 5 if I can get the others.

    I realize this is a radical propostion.

    Parent

    Here's the problem (none / 0) (#73)
    by andgarden on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:08:16 PM EST
    Liberal blogs should feature articles attacking Republicans, not Democrats.
    What I think BTD has realized is that we have to have a serious debate within our party about war funding, and since all of the other high-profile bloggers refuse to take Obama, Pelosi, and Levin to task about the issue (some are arriving late to the party), he has to be a little shrill about it. I think we're early enough in the process that I can accept that strategy.

    Parent
    Certainly (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:10:00 PM EST
    the fact that no one else will fuels the number of my posts.

    Parent
    Any debate. . . (none / 0) (#77)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 12:11:26 PM EST
    What I think BTD has realized is that we have to have a serious debate within our party about war funding,

    predicated on the notion that Obama is either a coward or wants the war to continue cannot possibly, in my mind, be called "serious".

    Attacking and debating are two different things -- a fact often ignored in the blogosphere.

    Parent

    A coward? (none / 0) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 01:42:43 PM EST
    How about just stupendously wrong and harmful?

    Parent
    Seems to me (none / 0) (#96)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 02:45:40 PM EST
    Broder makes your argument for defunding:

    From the start, Democrats ought to concede one big point: Absent any readiness on their part to cut off funds to the troops in Iraq, those forces will be there as long as George Bush wants them to remain.

    Unfortunately  he can't face the logic that follows from that and wanders off into wishful thinking instead.

    Well (none / 0) (#100)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Apr 10, 2007 at 04:56:48 PM EST
    HE makes the evidence for my argument.

    Parent