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Open Thread

It's 5:00 in Denver and I haven't left the computer since 7:30 am. I'm taking a break to replenish my groceries and libations. With all the Scooter Libby excitement today, I'll never sleep tonight without a little Grand Marnier.

I know there's other news, so here's a place to discuss it.

< Libby Juror Video | Ending The Iraq Debacle: What the Senate Can Do, What the House Should Do >
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    Get some sleep ... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by annburns on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 06:04:34 PM EST
    You and FDL and all the other bloggers have been fantastic during this trial. Thank you so much for your coverage.

    I'll second that (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Edger on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 07:27:48 PM EST
    'Fantastic' is a rather restrained description, IMO.

    Parent
    Mandating HPV vaccinations (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Aaron on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 06:13:02 PM EST
    I find it difficult to believe that there is growing opposition to a vaccine which will prevent HPV (Human Papilloma Virus), but it's true.  Now that there is a vaccine which can immunize young girls against this virus which often leads to cervical cancer, and genital warts, there's a growing movement to stop states for mandating its use, so much so that Merck, its maker, is backing off its push for a nationwide mandate.

    HPV Vaccine: Too Soon To Be Mandatory

    [Religious conservatives worry that it would make teens likelier to sin (by easing the threat of an STD). Of course, vaccines don't put ants in your pants anymore than safety belts cause road rage, and, besides, nearly everyone gets laid eventually. The purpose of public health is to protect everyone, and the vaccination of young girls is based on solid data showing that 13 percent of girls have already had sex by the time they turn 15. (It's important to vaccinate before sexual debut, because HPV infection risk increases about 15 percent with each new partner.) ]

    HPV vaccine fuels debate

    Haneisen: What if there was an HIV vaccine?

    Medical nihilism and the HPV vaccine

    thats (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Jen M on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 06:40:45 PM EST
    the culture of life for ya

    Parent
    Aren't there.... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:14:46 AM EST
    some potential dangerous side-effects or complications with this vaccine?  I remember hearing something to that effect.

    I am an opponent of making any elective medical procedure "mandatory"....regardless of how good an idea it is.  It's gotta be up to the individual, or the parent or guardian of a minor, to get stuck with a needle....never the state.

    Parent

    Truthout also had a good article about this (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:19:54 AM EST
    Thanks E.... (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:55:30 AM EST
    for the link.
    I don't doubt the people recommending it have the best intentions, but when we are talking about the sovereignty of people's bodies we must tread very carefully.  The best we can do is get the truth out there so people can make their own informed decisions.

    Parent
    Cervical Cancer (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:52:11 AM EST
    The problem here is that the girls getting vaccinated are minors. It a bit different than an adult deciding about their own body.  Religious parents who are against the vaccine are robbing the child of protection from a very nasty death: cervical cancer.

    If it were about some horrible side effect that would be one thing, perhaps more valid. But to say that these girls will be punished by god for having sex is nasty. Even if the girls stay celibate until marriage, there is still a good chance that they will contract the virus that can lead to cervical cancer.

    It is a no brainer. I have a friend that died from cervical cancer and it was not pretty.

    Parent

    Unfortunately squeaky.... (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:08:45 AM EST
    We can legislate ourselves to death and there will still be bad parents who make terrible decisions for their children...sad but unavoidable.

    Bottom line...nobody sticks my kid with a needle without my say-so.  I don't wanna give the state the right to kick my kid out of public school because I refuse an elective medical procedure...that's what "mandatory" means right?  Give your kid the shot or they can't go to school.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:14:36 AM EST
    I trust your decision making alot more than the religious wackos out there. Do you think that the public good ever trumps the individual?

    Traffic lights? Drunk driving checkpoints? A very tricky, and slippery line.

    Parent

    Indeed it is..... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 12:14:18 PM EST
    always a tough call for when societal "good" trumps the individual.

    Traffic lights I understand the need, though in my neck of the woods I think there are way too many of them....random drunk-driving checkpoints go to far over the line, I'd wait for probable cause a driver is drunk before giving the state the right to impede your travel.  All imo of course, reasonable people will disagree.

    Bottom line...when in doubt I always side with individual liberty.  Safer for the future of freedom that way....give an inch, society as represented by the state takes a yard.

    Parent

    Agree (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:17:18 AM EST
    Calling it elective but establishing sanctions for refusing it is misleading and dishonest power politicking. Bullsh*t, imo.

    Parent
    Interesting article I think I agree with (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:22:59 AM EST
    From World Nut Daily, of all places:
    For years there has been a debate about the cause or causes of autism, but the vast majority of finger-pointing has been directed at childhood vaccines as the culprit. And considering what is put into the vaccines injected into hours-old infants, it is easy to understand why they are at the top of the list of suspects: formaldehyde (used in embalming), thimerosal (nearly 50 percent mercury), aluminum phosphate (toxic and carcinogenic), antibiotics, phenols (corrosive to skin and toxic), aluminum salts (corrosive to tissue and neurotoxic), methanol (toxic), isopropyl (toxic), 2-pheoxyethanol (toxic), live viruses and a host of unknown components considered off-limits as trade secrets. These are just part of the vaccine mixture.

    For those who believe there are elements in vaccines that may be responsible for the increased number of autism cases and other neurological disorders, thimerosal currently is at the top of the list of possible culprits being investigated.

    I personally refuse all vaccines, and though I have no children under 35 now, if I did I would be very careful about vaccinating them and would retain the coice even at the cost of moving them to a different school.

    Parent

    erm... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:23:30 AM EST
    Choice.

    Parent
    I must admit... (none / 0) (#57)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 12:17:40 PM EST
    the claims of early infancy vaccines causing autism did cross my mind.

    The HPV thing is still pretty new, who knows what side effects might pop in 10, 15, 20 years.

    Parent

    Autism Spectrum/Vaccines (none / 0) (#65)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 01:15:39 PM EST
    A good point shedding light on a parent's perspective and their fears. I hadn't thought about that angle.

    BTW- My take on that debate is that there is no connection between Autism and the vaccines. The group that is pushing that theory are primarily parents who refuse to believe that it is Austism Spectrum is genetic. They are mad and want their children fixed. And they want justice. I can understand wanting to lay blame on an outside force  because facing that it is genetic may be too heavy for them to bear.

    Parent

    Interesting idea that denial would be (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 01:28:31 PM EST
    part of the problem. But parents with autistic children it might be motivated that way, I agree with you. They might feel somehow that their child's condition is their fault.

    I have always been suspicious of phamaceuticals and the chemicals used in the makeup of vaccines - which was probably why the article on the link caught my eye.

    Parent

    Thimerosal (none / 0) (#78)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 03:24:40 PM EST
    skepticism (none / 0) (#67)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 01:44:03 PM EST
    I don't take vaccines anymore and I don't give any to my kids.

    I am not a scientist, but I don't trust our system. Maybe the fear of vaccines is motivated by a bunch of lunatics. But, perhaps there is also a campaign of fear that is motivated by money and spread by the Pharmacuetical companies who give money to campaigns making sure they have influence in the FDA and that they are funding the researcdh into their drugs and spreadign their message through the MSM.

    Autism is certainly on the rise. I am sure it is partially related to more awareness and diagnosis (another area I am skeptical of), but the increasing amount of vaccinations given to young infants and toddlers might also be the cuase. Vaccines are strongly encouraged for the young and the old to protect against disease because they are the most vulnerable. Well, by my way of thinking and using my common sense, the increase in Autism and behavioral disorder among our children and the increase in Alzehiemers, Parkinsons Disease and other Neurological disorders among the elderly might be the result of the additives in vaccince. Our most vulnerable, who we fear the most over their vulnerability, we may be causing the greatest harm. Thimerosal (ethyl Mercury) is used as a preservative by my understanding. Mercury and Lead wer used previously. When Thimerosal is banned (if it is banned) a new chemical will come along to replace it and preserve the dead or live form of the antibody.

    I am speaking from a lot of ignorance. I don't sit in science labs testing the components of vaccines on live mice - just as I don't measure the level of CO2 in the atmosphere. But, I know that disease is a part of life and a healthy lifestyle and nutritious diet go along way toward lessening our vulnerability to disease. I choose to focus on what I put into my  and my children's bodies as the best defense against disease. I know fresh blueberries are good for those bodies. I don't know that vaccines are (though they may have some benefits). I am not taking any chances nor trusting our health institutions paid for by the large pharmacueticals.  

    Parent

    I haven't got links to them handy right now (none / 0) (#68)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 01:59:09 PM EST
    But, I have also seen geographic distribution maps of diseases like various Cancers, Parkinsons Disease, and other Neurological disorders, that show strong correllation between the occurrence of these diseases and the distribution of heavy pesticide spraying in farming areas of North America.

    In any case I am very leery of chemicals and pollution in the environment as well, and their link to disease.

    On a related note Paul Goettlich at Mindfully has put together a very good resource for info on Pesticides, Toxins, Endocrine Disruptors.

    Endocrine disruptors are man-made synthetic chemicals and natural phytoestrogens (naturally occurring plant- or fungal metabolite-derived estrogen) that act on the endocrine systems of humans and animals by mimicking, blocking and/or interfering in some manner with the natural instructions of hormones to cells.
    ...
    The endocrine system is made up of  glands, hormones and receptors found in numerous places in the body. It is the link between the nervous system and reproduction, immunity, metabolism and behaviour.


    Parent
    related.... (none / 0) (#70)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:09:18 PM EST
    Early Environmental Origins of Neurodegenerative Disease in Later Life

    Parkinson disease (PD) and Alzheimer disease (AD), the two most common neurodegenerative disorders in American adults, are of purely genetic origin in a minority of cases and appear in most instances to arise through interactions among genetic and environmental factors.


    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#71)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:22:19 PM EST
    It is ironic, since we are speculating about disease stemming from vaccines, that a large group of Parkinson disease sufferers can be traced back to the 1918 flu epidemic.

    Those that contracted the flu suffered brain scarring that later affected dopamine production. These folks wound up with Parkinson disease. A flu shot may have prevented that.

    Parent

    I have a headache and I feel a bit shaky? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:25:49 PM EST
    Hmmm.

    Parent
    Skeptical (none / 0) (#77)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:58:57 PM EST
    as usual,

    Parkinson's is so wide spread that the diseas has been linked to many causes. My father has been told that his was caused by a concussion, fever, pollutants, genetics, ... They just don't know. He did grow up in an agricultural region, though. But, I tell you what, I worry much more about vaccines and enviornmental pollutants (many of the toxins identified as pollutants are also found in vaccines) than I do about the influenza. I recognize Influenza's potential destruction. But I also recognize that Tornadoes can randonly kill, as well as floods. I won't live in fear and anyone who tells you that a flu shot will prevent Parkinson's is spreading fear. I've had the flu before. Some day I might die from the flu. If I don't die from the flu I'll die from something else. You'll die of something to some day.

    I'd rather die from the ignorance of needing to know what I put in my body and the effects I might recieve from them, than the ignorance of believing a propaganda campaign, no matter what the campaign is. Flu shots are a campaign and fear is the motivator behind getting the public to buy into the campaign. When fear doesn't work shame and guilt are applied. When that doesn't work they'll make it a crime to not vaccinate. That is the federal gov't at work for our freedoms (i mean for the drug companies).

    Parent

    Thats the gist, ain't it? (none / 0) (#69)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:01:11 PM EST
    Once big profits are involved....you don't know who to trust.

    Parent
    I imagine you've had your children... (none / 0) (#109)
    by Aaron on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:57:28 PM EST
    ... inoculated for polio, this is no different, it's a public health issue.

    If we want all children to be protected, then it needs to be mandatory, and in so doing we can perhaps do away with cervical cancer for all women.

    Without a mandate, the state will not pick up the cost, and the children of poor women, who are most at risk because they don't get Pap smears, will continue to become ill and died for decades to come.

    Parent

    Reason to mandate vaccinations (none / 0) (#108)
    by Aaron on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:46:15 PM EST
    The original breakthrough in the development of this vaccine occurred in 2002, through the pioneering research of Professor Ian Frazier at the University of Queensland's CICR (Center for Immunology and Cancer Research).  He achieved a 100% efficiency rate for the treatment, that's very rare for any treatment.  Initial trials showed that the drug was 100% effective.  This may be the first time that anyone has ever developed a vaccine designed to prevent cancer, quite an accomplishment.

    So what we have here is a drug that's been under testing in Australia for some years now, not something which is virtually untested as some have suggested.  With some five years of testing on over 12,000 women ages 16 to 26 from 13 countries researchers have concluded that it is quite safe and very effective.

    Yet here we are in America in 2007, pretending like this discovery was just made, though admittedly in scientific research terms that is the case.  But the reality is that this drug is already proven and will save lives in the long run.  All we need do to make this happen, is push for state and federal funding to make this possible.  No doubt the price set by Merck is a reflection costs they ensued in testing, and the profits they wish to make, but I imagine that with negotiation the cost of the drug could be halved or better.

    So the question is, do we have an interest in preventing the deaths of the 270,000 women a year who will die from cervical cancer, including some 3700 women a year here in the United States, is that worthy of a mandate? A mandate is necessary so that states will pick up the cost of immunizing all girls.  Once this is accomplished we could do away with most cervical cancers altogether in this country, and as an added benefit sharply curtail the cases of genital warts.  These numbers go back to 2002, so I'm sure if we start vaccinating young girls now, the number of lives that can be saved will be even higher.  Also a nationwide demand for this vaccine will help create a larger global market which will begin to reach girls in developing countries, countries where Pap smears are not available to most of the population.

    I believe Texas already mandates these vaccinations, they apparently believe its worth the cost, as do I, because I have a daughter, and I would like to eliminate one of her health concerns.  We have the power, the means and the infrastructure to make this happen, now all it requires is the will.

    I don't think I or any other father wants to look in the eyes of their daughter decades from now and see that she has become ill from a disease which we could've done away with, had we only exercise a little foresight and fortitude.

    In addition I think it's important to remember that major drug manufacturers will be spurred to invest more research in vaccines of this type, if they see that society views their efforts as worthwhile, and are willing to reward them with profits for their efforts to produce new vaccines, which there is very little incentive to do these days.  No doubt they will be much more willing to pursue other vaccines which may do away with other forms of cancer.  We need to think about the consequences of rejecting a breakthrough drug like Gardasil, even in the short-term, because if we do, it's likely to slow the pace of R&D on other such vaccines.

    Parent

    When I was youger and worked in the Hospitality (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by TexDem on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 06:56:31 PM EST
    Industry, working those late shifts, we would call Grand Marnier liquid Valium. Sleep well.

    "Interests" (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:24:28 PM EST
    trump morality. This is fairly clear.

    And now "the Left" is supposed to do, vis a vis Saudi Arabia, what Jims favorite administration has never had the b*lls to do, again, because interests trump morality.

    Where are the condemnations from your full-of-values, favorite administration, Jim?

    And... (none / 0) (#74)
    by desertswine on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:33:07 PM EST
    "well, let's put it this way...money trumps peace, sometimes."

    GWJackass, 14Feb07

    Parent

    Jondee (none / 0) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:55:06 PM EST
    Why should the Left wait for the Administration?

    After all, it is the Left who is making the claim that they are standing on a superior moral poistion re the war.

    Common sense says they should take the lead against these outrages.

    Parent

    common sense ... (none / 0) (#79)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 03:27:53 PM EST
    ... says people shouldn't make hypocritical attacks. Calling for 'the left', whatever that is, to codemn something that ppj has supported, and then flip-flopped about is just silly.

    But then so is supporting/exporting terrorism to violent dictatorships and theocracies.

    Parent

    Can I count on you? (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 08:58:25 PM EST
    To condemn these despicable acts?

    Will you step forward and say that such things are wrong??

    Saudi   female repae victim sentenced to 90 lashes for the crime of being alone with a male not of her family.

    edger? Squeaky? Al? Will you join me??

    absofu***lutely (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Jen M on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 10:10:59 PM EST
    So why are we propping up the Saudis? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 09:02:51 PM EST
    When their brand of Islam is the most extreme and enslaving and violent toward women?  Why are you happy the Bush family is close chums with these creeps?  

    Who on earth WOULDN'T condemn this "sentence" on this poor woman?

    No one.

    Who would condemn our support of the Saudi Royal Family, who is in cahoots with the extremists not only behind some of the most vile treatment of women...but behind 9/11!!!

    Parent

    Dadler, no support, eh?? (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 09:50:17 PM EST
    Okay.

    Can I also put you down for condemning this?

    Tehran's despots recently hanged a 16-year-old girl. What is it in the Arab-Islamic culture that breeds the demonization and dehumanization of the female?

    But wait. You don't want to condemn the Saudis. You want to condemn Bush.

    What does that have to do with condemning the radical Moslems, whether they are from SA, Iran, Iraq, Afghnistan...

    Can you put your Bush hatred in your pocket long enough to condemn these acts?

    Or is the real truth what you said here:

    Trot out Gen. Giap all you want, you're stating the obvious, that protest worked. Sorry it helped "the enemy", but no Vietnamese communist fighting Western colonialism ever did a thing to me.

    Shall we change the name to OBL and "Vietnamese communist" to "radical moslem?"

    That's a tough question dadler. But isn't it time that we started takling about why we are fighting??

    If you, and edger and squeaky, etc., don't think that these things need to be condemned and stopped, just say so.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 09:58:22 PM EST
    Have you stopped beating your wife?

    Parent
    Or has he stopped supporting (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:38:20 AM EST
    Thanks for the link. (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 06:41:33 AM EST
    It demonstrates where your focus is.

    In the meantime, can you show me some judical action  against such things

    as this.

    Parent

    Squeaky (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 07:00:44 AM EST
    How about this??

    The riots started after a Christian woman reportedly rejected the advances of a Muslim man.

    Could you condemn that?

    I mean I've heard of sexual harassment, but burning down buildings......

    Link

    Parent

    Excuse me for saying so, but... (none / 0) (#12)
    by David at Kmareka on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 10:02:39 PM EST
    You present a false dichotomy.  One can deplore, condemn, and protest the injustice and inhumanity perpetrated upon innocents by regimes in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and anywhere else across the globe and simultaneously deplore, condemn, and protest those who turn a blind or indifferent eye to such injustice and inhumanity, as the Bush administration has seemed to do with some frequency.

    And for the record...on my blog, I do condemn both.  Just today, I posted an article about a Egyptian novelist who is being maligned and persecuted because her writing offends the Muslim government.  Check it out if you wish:

    Daily Injustice--March 6, 2007

    Parent

    Thanks for ignoring what I wrote... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 12:04:47 PM EST
    ...so you could completely avoid the really difficult issue.  Which doesn't surprise me.

    First, the easy issue: I said who WOULDNN'T condemn that sentence, which clearly implies I condemn it.  I condemn it, I condemn it, I condemn it!!

    You are so addicted to the obvious you have no ability to discuss anything but.

    You see, I also CONDEMN BUSH FOR SUPPORTING the Saudis.  In the world of mature, evolved minds, minds that have been aided by freedom and not retarded by it, reality is not always an either/or question, but something much more difficult.

    Lastly, your use of Vietnam here is comically inept.  It makes no sense, other than a smokescreen for your inability to face your own original point.  We should invade Saudi Arabia, too, yes?  The land of Mecca?  That is the only logical end to your Vietnam analogy.

    Stay on point when the point is yours.  I condemned the sentence, the Saudis, AND our own hypocritical and self-destructive support of the corrupt and tyrannical royal family (who are still in cahoots with the real radical fringe of Islam from which 9/11 originated).  How you invented an alternate reality in which my statements disappeared from your mind, I really don't know how that trick of delusion works.

    Parent

    He's a guy? (none / 0) (#85)
    by Jen M on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 04:15:57 PM EST
    Heh! (none / 0) (#90)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:04:10 PM EST
    I'll stand with you on this PPJ (none / 0) (#10)
    by john horse on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 09:57:50 PM EST
    I'm with PPJ on this.  What the Saudis apparently mean by "commiting a crime of being with a male not of her family" is that she was kidnapped and gangraped.  To file criminal charges against a rape victim is not only wrong but reprehensible.

    Parent
    I'm with ya Buddy! (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:17:33 AM EST
    I propose a trade embargo with Saudi Arabia until they get their house in some kind of order.  Once the prince's pocketbooks get pinched they might have a reason to join the 21st century.

    Parent
    federal judges (none / 0) (#8)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Tue Mar 06, 2007 at 09:40:57 PM EST
    I could be wrong, but I think I've read that the largest source of candidates for a federal judgeship is the federal prosecutors and their assistants.  Or, it is state judges and these two sources are pretty close in terms of which one provide more new federal judges.

    And, the relish with which the fire federal prosecutors have responded to calls to voluntarily testify to Congress--

    I think that some of you can guess as to the moral quality of federal judges, the persons who are the apparent guardians of the constitutional liberties of the people.

    "By a limited Constitution, I understand one which contains certain specified exceptions to the legislative authority; such, for instance, as that it shall pass no bills of attainder, no ex-post-facto laws, and the like. Limitations of this kind can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing."

    Federalist #78

    Today, a federal judge who wishes to be confirmed must, as much as possible, reject and deny that he will hold certain laws or Presidential actions unconstitutional, and instead state that he will give utmost deference to the Congress.

    I prefer the old kind.

    "If it be said that the legislative body are themselves the constitutional judges of their own powers, and that the construction they put upon them is conclusive upon the other departments, it may be answered, that this cannot be the natural presumption, where it is not to be collected from any particular provisions in the Constitution. It is not otherwise to be supposed, that the Constitution could intend to enable the representatives of the people to substitute their WILL to that of their constituents. It is far more rational to suppose, that the courts were designed to be an intermediate body between the people and the legislature, in order, among other things, to keep the latter within the limits assigned to their authority."

    Oh, the heresy!

    Playing devil's advocate (none / 0) (#14)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 01:07:49 AM EST
    I agree that some immunizations should be mandatory, to prevent epidemic outbreaks. But should not well informed parents have the right to refuse a vaccination, as long as the disease is not a significant threat to public health?

    I neeed to grok this some more.

    Making a mandatory vaccine (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Jen M on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:53:40 AM EST
    and allowing parents to opt out

    Is a lot different than not allowing anyone to get their kids vaccinated unless they have the money.

    They want to stop the mandatory vaccinations altogether. Around here at least, mandatory vaccinations for kids can be obtained free for those who can't afford them.

    Parent

    the inherent problem (none / 0) (#20)
    by cpinva on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 07:13:01 AM EST
    with merck's vaccine is that it isn't for all hpv, only some. the part of the story they always conveniently leave out. the concern, among health professionals, is that by mandating the vaccine, women will be under the (false) impression that it covers all hpv, and take no precautions against the hpv's that it doesn't vaccinate against.

    actually, this isn't a legitimate public health issue, in the same sense as vaccinations for smallpox or chickenpox are: hpv is not an airborne virus, it is transmitted almost exclusively by sexual contact. unless the gov. of texas means to suggest that 12 year-old girls are having sex in school, i question the validity of his concern.

    as to ppj's expressed moral outrage, it's his usual strawman, what it has to do with anything is anyone's guess.

    Breaking the viral transmission chain is key (none / 0) (#119)
    by Aaron on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 01:50:35 AM EST
    Gardasil many only cover some strains of HPV, the most common most studied strains, but it's an enormous achievement in that it encompasses so many strains already, it is in fact quite comprehensive and there is little doubt among researchers that it will lead to an improved vaccine which will be even more comprehensive.

    But unless vaccine manufacturers like Merck see significant demand, and can make a reasonable profit off Gardasil, the R&D into a more comprehensive vaccine will get delayed, perhaps for decades.

    As one of my links indicates, a significant percentage of American females have had sex by the time they've reach 15, vaccinating young girls is imperative in the effort to stop the spread of this virus.  Once a woman has developed an immunity through the vaccine, she cannot become a care and pass it on to others.  So every girl that gets vaccinated is not only protecting herself, but everyone she has intercourse with because she can't pass the virus on to males who would in turn infect other females.

    What we're able to do with such vaccines is prevent cancer by stopping the spread of a sexually transmitted virus which facilitates the disease.  If enough girls are vaccinated, the chain of infection is disrupted, and before you know it the virus will begin to slowly fade from the population and with it the risk of cervical cancer.  That's why it's so important to start vaccinating large numbers of girls as soon as possible, because unless we start vaccinating them now, breaking the chain of viral transmission will take much longer, and more lives will be lost as a result of the delay.

     I understand that this is a difficult concept for many to get their head around, we don't really live in a society that thinks long-term.  This is about taking action now in order to improve the health and safety of women 10, 20 and 30 years down the road.

    Parent

    edger, I'm just noting some facts. (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 07:28:18 AM EST
    That you can not answer the question is of no surprise.

    You claim to be against war and have noted that you won't fight, yet you have never defined as to if it is only this war, or all wars.

    Can you answer that question?

    And while you spend hours attacking the US' positions and anything the Bush administration does, I have never seen you condemn the actions of the radical Moslems. Certainly I would think that you could spare a comment or two each week imploring the Moslem world to correct such actions.

    et al - You claim to want peace and justice and want to use the UN for this purpose.

    Why do I see no demonstrations against "honor killings?"

    Why do I see no demonstrations condemning the lack of "women's rights" in the ME?

    Why do I see no demonstrations against the killing of Gays and Lesbians??

    Where are you when the world needs you??

    Ask yourself... (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by David at Kmareka on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:25:11 AM EST
    Where are you when the world needs you??

    And where are you, sir?  In which country do you and Edger and I reside?  Should we devote more of our energy and resources to fighting injustice and inhumanity abroad rather than here in our own backyard?  Where might we truly have greater influence?  Where do we have a vote and the opportunity to organize for social and political change?  Why do you insist on presenting this false dichotomy that concern about domestic ills implies a lack of concern about foreign ills?  Do you honestly believe that Edger or most any other commenter on this site is indifferent to the persecution and suffering of innocents anywhere on this planet?  Or are you simply being provocative and attempting to pick a fight so as to distract from the issues at hand and "Swift Boat" the good name and works of those who only desire a better and more just nation and world?  Have you no decency, sir?

    Parent

    Nail on the head (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:56:58 AM EST
    For ppj it is all about rhetoric. Human lives, especially american ones, always take a back seat.

    Parent
    Squeaky (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:23:45 AM EST
    Sounds like my comments have hit home.

    Libertarian and Liberalism is about as far apart as you can get, don't you know??

    But tell me. Couldn't you devote just 25% of your protests to the evils being done by the radical moslems??

    Parent

    I think you are making an excuse. (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:03:40 AM EST
    And where are you, sir?  In which country do you and Edger and I reside?

    I would say that your comment means that you are, basically, an isolationist.

    And I find that position, flavored with a Libertarian tinge, fairly common in the Left of today. And in some cases, I believe it leads not to forgiveness, but a failure to condemn the actions of the radicals, perhaps due to a tunnel vision that allows them to see only the sins of the US, and the west in general.

    At the extreme it is possible that this leads to a fear that if the US wins it will make their enemies stronger.

    So it appears to some that opposition to the war, irrespective of what a loss by the US would bring, is moral and necessary.

    The reality is this. You can be against the war and against "honor killings."

    The two positions are not mutually exclusive.

    And surely if you are concerned, using 25% of your time to denounce the problems being highlighted by the actions of the radical Moslems would not be too much to ask if you are really concerned about truth and justice.

    But it shouldn't be, "Well, of course I am! How dare you think I'm not?"

    Say somethings. Take some actions. Don't expect people to read your mind.

    As for me, go to Advanced Google and enter TalkLeft under domain and "social liberal" under search. I think you will see that I am very much against injustice, and have probably fought more of those battles than you, simply because of my background and my age.


    Parent

    Yes, you can and I am! (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 04:37:14 PM EST
    The reality is this. You can be against the war and against "honor killings."

    As many here agree, I think, I believe the problem comes when someone uses "honor Killings", "human rights", "torture," or "regime change," "Nuclear Proliferation," "WMD's" as a pretext or a defense for the invasion or beginning of a war. There are other means that are short of war that can be and should be used before invading a country and setting off a large scale and costly war -both financially and in human life. I do not favor starting a war against SA any more than I favored starting a war with Iraq. SA should be condemned, not invaded for these morally reprehensible practices just as any other country -including the US, btw, when they engage in torture or other repugnant behaviors - should be condemned.

    Parent

    maybe you (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Jen M on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 04:17:02 PM EST
    aren't looking

    Parent
    What can we do? (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:44:38 AM EST
    Seriously...what can we do?  Our govt. is in bed with the barbaric Saudi royals.

    I think the best we can do is refuse to trade with them, refuse to defend them with our military, refuse to deal with them at all until they clean up their act.

    But our political and economic leaders would never go for that.  I'm not even sure the majority of American people would...it would require sacrifice....we don't do sacrifice well, we shop and burn fuel well.

    Parent

    kdog (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:09:19 AM EST
    It isn't just the Saudis.

    It is an attitude. It is a lack of condemnation by many in the west of the evils done by the radicals against their own people.

    The Left is adroit at demonstrating. Why can't they organize and demonstrate against these things?

    Liberals are supposed to be for human rights.

    Parent

    I'd spread..... (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:35:57 AM EST
    my proposed economic and diplomatic embargo to any country with a human rights record comparable to the Saudis.  

    IOW, any nation that does not recognize the most basic human rights would not be recognized as a nation by our govt.  No trade, no aid, no relations.  

    Let's put our fortitude to the test...lets put our money where our mouth is.

    Parent

    Er.... (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:07:59 AM EST
    If we were totally independent, and self sustaining that would be one thing, but we are not. Also the we, is a pretty mixed bag.

    Example: the MJ seller is OK, s/he gets it from a mob conrtrolled source. They are brutal killers in certain circumstances.

    Do you go without MJ?  Meat sellers that are cruel to animals? Purveyors that do stuff we consider immoral? How do we scrutinize all the sources of our goods? That would be crazymaking.

    I supported the SA embargo and am all for an Israeli embargo, but until we become energy independent it is a tough call to cut off all the supplying countries to force them to be more like us.

    Very difficult stuff. Big moral and ethical decisions.

    Parent

    Edger (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:33:05 AM EST
    So you equate to eat meat, or not eat meat, with killing gays and lesbians?

    How absolutely stunning.

    A dog is a cat is a rat is a boy, eh??

    And no one is saying you cut off anything. Can you not demonstrate/protest/comment that "honor killings" are bad without invoking an embargo?

    What weak excuses.

    Parent

    Sorry edger and squeaky (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:46:11 AM EST
    didn't mean to mix the two of you.

    Parent
    I'm talking.... (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 12:30:32 PM EST
    basic, bare bones human rights standards.  I don't mean "be like us".  Simple stuff like no slavery, no torture, no punishing rape victims...nothing as debatable as animal cruelty.

    I think we could come up with a list of the most basic human rights standards that 99% of the world can agree to.  Fail to meet those and you can't do business internationally.  Trust me, it would be as hard on the oil sellers as it is on the oil buyers...if we had the will to sacrifice it could suceed.  But I'm afraid sacrifice makes us all more uncomfortable than rape victims being punished by our gas station in the ME.

    Parent

    ppj would never go for that ... (none / 0) (#42)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:08:48 AM EST
    ... he's on record here many times endorsing giving dictatorships and theocracies money and arms.

    Parent
    Sailor, Your comment is not even close (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:40:15 AM EST
    I have noted that sometimes it is a good strategy to make common ground with one enemy while you fight another.

    That was true with the Soviets during WWII, and it was true with Iraq when Iran had decided to take over the ME during the 80's, and it was true with the rebels in Afghanistan fighting the Soviets.

    My comments have been focused on the lack of condemnation by the Left of the various despicable acts by the radical moslems.

    Why do you think that is???

    Parent

    since you support arming ... (none / 0) (#54)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 12:06:20 PM EST
    ... dictators and theocracies I find your question dishonest at its heart.

    Parent
    Sailor - Not just dictatorships and theocracies.. (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 12:30:16 PM EST
    I support arming and using any/all countries that has strategic value and will save US lives. See my last comment.

    Now. I wrote and asked.

    My comments have been focused on the lack of condemnation by the Left of the various despicable acts by the radical moslems.

    Why do you think that is???

    And why do you think asking it is dishonest because I suppport arming people who wll help save US lives??

    Parent

    why do ... (none / 0) (#63)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 01:03:02 PM EST
    ... you insist others condemn these acts when you are willing to look the other way and arm them the folks committing them? [/rhetorical question]

    Parent
    It's really very simple. (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 03:49:07 PM EST
    Our arming the rebels, Soviets during WWII and whatever support we gave Iraq against Iran was in our interest. It was to save US lives.

    That OBL and his band of cut throats later decided to use them against us speaks to his dishonesty and immorality, not ours.

    Realistic answer.

    Parent

    Saudi Arabia (none / 0) (#83)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 04:01:41 PM EST
    Is doing a great job protecting US lives, yes?  Great alliance there.  9/11 Hijackers, Terrorist Funding, Woman Abusing, Gay Murdering, Bin Laden-spawning cesspool.  But they give us quite a deal on oil and are friends of many rulers here in this country.  

    Jim, I can see you're tired of everyone bringing up SA.  But 9/11 spawned there, they have their hands on our economy, and their in-country abuses are legion.  If you really were serious about what you were writing you'd have long been outraged at the Republican alliance with SA, so enraged in fact that you would never have shilled for Bush and his Party in the last three elections.


    Parent

    kdog (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:43:47 AM EST
    Well, what will you do about the "Honor Killings" in France? Germany?

    Do you plan to ignore them?

    Parent

    I'd urge.... (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 12:38:55 PM EST
    France and Germany to enforce their laws and bring the killers to justice.  If France and Germany passed laws that made honor killings legal I'd add 'em to my embargo list with the Saudis.

    Jim Ol' Buddy....I will never be as concerned with foreign governments as I am with my own....only one govt. represents me.

    Parent

    You're not demonstrating (none / 0) (#61)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 12:34:14 PM EST
    Why are you holding others to a higher standard than you hold for yourself?  Why aren't you out on the street with your anti-Saudi sign?

    As for women's rights in muslim societies, I'd suggest it's a tad more complex issue than how you frame it (and this link is to an article that does anything but go for easy answers, nor does it stroke all my assumptions and paradigms, so it certainly doesn't stroke yours):

    At the same time, the criticisms of the Feminist Majority campaign and RAWAÕs angry response to the Spring 2002 issue of Ms. Magazine suggest the limits of transnational feminism and the perils of international solidarity work that is not self-conscious, sensitive, and inclusive. While one could argue that RAWA and the Feminist Majority both have an unfortunate tendency toward self-aggrandizement, it behooves feminist organizations of the global North to display more modesty about their achievements in international work, especially when their own nation-states are seriously implicated in questionable or destructive foreign policies.

    On the other hand, there is still cause for optimism. Transnational feminist networks and many nationally-based feminist organizations Ð including WLUML, WomanKind, WomenÕs Edge, Afghan womenÕs groups, along with the major human rights organizations Ð have continued to monitor the situation of women in post-Taleban Afghanistan. They advocate for the right of Afghan women to participate in and benefit from peace-building, reconstruction, socio-economic development, and law-making, and they lobby the relevant governments, donor agencies and inter-governmental organizations. Certainly Afghan women can count on the continued support, solidarity and technical assistance of the transnational womenÕs movement.

    Parent

    Dadler (none / 0) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:26:09 PM EST
    My point has been simple. It is the Left who is in almost constant protest against this country, so why shouldn't the Left protest these things as a demonstration that they understand that there are many things that the radical moslems do that need to be stopped. The picture that is being painted is one of moral eqivalency.

    It is possible to be against the war and against killing gays and lesbians.

    As to the women's rights issue, I would agree that it is not simple, but no one should have any problem demanding that women not be stoned for claims of, or actual commission, adultery. Same for killing gays and lesbians and the so-called "honor killings."

    It becomes deeper when it is noted that many of these actions are not carried out by "terrorists," but Imams and others who see them as part of their law and tradition.

    These are the people who must be reformed. And to do that they must understand that such actions are  not tolerated. Demonstrations that get noticed by their government, and by their "leaders" are needed. These people are not ignorant. They watch the western press, and without negative feedback, they simply won't change.

    Parent

    we protest (none / 0) (#94)
    by Jen M on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:31:15 PM EST
    the wrong things this country does.

    not this country.

    And protests againgst the bad things other countries do you have obviously been studiously been ignoring.

    Ever hear of Amnesty International?

    Go. Read. Find the list of nations and the lists of horrors.

    Ever read books by feminists? Did you think they were only "protesting this country"? No. They also describe conditions women face all over the world.

    You haven't been paying attention.

    Parent

    Jen M (none / 0) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:58:26 PM EST
    I am familar with the organizations you mention.

    I do not find them especially effective.

    And yes, there are a long list of horrible things.

    But this is somewhat like triage. Before we worry about the broken arm and leg, we first need to stop the bright red blood squirting from the neck.

    The Left is proud of its "blogosphere."

    Why can't they use it for something besides attacking the US and Bush?

    Remember. No one is saying quit protesting about your traditional causes.

    And it is possible to protest the war and the
    wrongs being done in the ME.

    Parent

    first you say (none / 0) (#107)
    by Jen M on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:37:37 PM EST
    you see no one protesting thse things

    now you say you are familiar with them

    uh huh

    Parent

    What don't you understand?? (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:05:40 PM EST
    I am familar with the organizations you mention.

    I do not find them especially effective



    Parent
    This hort exchange above is a (none / 0) (#112)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:16:08 PM EST
    clear example of the intentionally insulting and insinuating nature of Jim's comments.

    Parent
    What you don't see might even be there (none / 0) (#120)
    by Jen M on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 05:41:54 AM EST
    Why do I see no demonstrations against "honor killings?"

    Why do I see no demonstrations condemning the lack of "women's rights" in the ME?

    Why do I see no demonstrations against the killing of Gays and Lesbians??

    Where are you when the world needs you??

    vs

    I am familar with the organizations you mention.

    Pick one.

    btw, did you know there are protests every day in this city? They just don't make the news. You don't see them because they DON'T. MAKE. THE. NEWS.


    I do not find them especially effective.

    Read more.

    The Left is proud of its "blogosphere."

    Why can't they use it for something besides attacking the US and Bush?

    So don't limit your surfing.

    Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't happening.

    Just because you weren't aware of something 20 years ago doesn't mean it wasn't happening then.

    There are immigrants and refugees from all over the world here. Survivors of all kinds of injustice. There are also advocacy groups (the cubans aren't the only ones) who do their best to bring inform americans about those injustices and corrupt regimes, and have for ... the life of this republic.

    I guess you are an example of their success

    Parent

    read the article i linked you to (none / 0) (#105)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:03:44 PM EST
    it reveals us both as very naive about this issue, about the perception of western "help" on this issue especially.

    Parent
    Vermont: 36 towns call for impeachment probe (none / 0) (#26)
    by dutchfox on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:30:33 AM EST
    Voters in three dozen Vermont towns want Congress to begin an impeachment probe of Pres. George W. Bush and Vice Pres. Dick Cheney.

    More than a dozen towns passed measures calling for the immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq, and to care for them when they were back on U.S. soil. Dover also rejected the troop measure.


    A defector from the GW army... (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:25:14 AM EST
    Allegre's second thoughts

    Claude Allegre, one of France's leading socialists and among her most celebrated scientists, was among the first to sound the alarm about the dangers of global warming....

    The cause of this climate change is unknown," he states matter of factly. There is no basis for saying, as most do, that the "science is settled."

    Dr. Allegre's skepticism is noteworthy in several respects. For one, he is an exalted member of France's political establishment, a friend of former Socialist president Lionel Jospin, and, from 1997 to 2000, his minister of education, research and technology, charged with improving the quality of government research through closer co-operation with France's educational institutions. For another, Dr. Allegre has the highest environmental credentials

    The author of early environmental books, he fought successful battles to protect the ozone layer from CFCs and public health from lead pollution. His break with scientific dogma over global warming came at a personal cost: Colleagues in both the governmental and environmental spheres were aghast that he could publicly question the science behind climate change.....

    Calling the arguments of those who see catastrophe in climate change "simplistic and obscuring the true dangers," Dr. Allegre especially despairs at "the greenhouse-gas fanatics whose proclamations consist in denouncing man's role on the climate without doing anything about it except organizing conferences and preparing protocols that become dead letters." The world would be better off, Dr. Allegre believes, if these "denouncers" became less political and more practical...

    Link

    Jeralyn (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:38:22 AM EST
    Why did you delete my comment of earlier this morning parodying ppj's dishonest troll tactics?

    Did it violate your comment policies somehow?

    Yes, two of your comments were deleted (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:22:19 AM EST
    I'll decide who's trolling here and personal insults and name-calling aren't allowed.  Please respond to Jim's arguments without name-calling and insulting him.

    Parent
    Fair enough (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:31:48 AM EST
    I find his tactics very insulting. So I parodied them. I'm sorry you find that more insulting.

    Parent
    tactics aren't the issue (none / 0) (#100)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 06:19:02 PM EST
    words are.

    Parent
    Words are an issue, yes. (none / 0) (#104)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 07:53:00 PM EST
    My apologies. To you and to Jim.

    Parent
    There are (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:10:48 AM EST
    countries and societies and peoples all over the world that consider morally repugnant if not just plain barbaric and evil some of the things that happen regularly in and done by other countries such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, the United States, and others, supported and encouraged by rulers, presidents, governments, political leaders, and religious authorities.

    Does any one country or society have any right to premptively invade another country, destroy their society and cause the death of hundreds of thousands of their people, on the basis of their moral judgements?

    What would the reaction in the United States be, if another country decided to do this to the United States, because they find some of the things that happen here to be repugnant? Should a differen reaction be expected if the United Staes does this?

    edger (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:58:01 AM EST
    My comments specifically noted that you do not have to be for the war to be against the acts I described.

    And who are these countries, and what specific acts do they find wrong that is part of the culture of the US?

    Are you referring to the well know comments about the conduct of people in the US by various radical Moslems?

    Are you saying that because they find women with bare faces terrible, that makes the act equivalent to giving a rape victim 90 lashes for being alone with a non-family member male, who is also one of her rapists??

    Parent

    ppj was for supporting ... (none / 0) (#55)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 12:09:42 PM EST
    ... muslim radicals before he was against it. (see taliban, iraq, etc.)

    Parent
    Of course. The Soviets were a bigger problem. (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 12:33:24 PM EST
    We do not live in a one dimensional world.

    Parent
    don't make false complaints ... (none / 0) (#64)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 01:05:29 PM EST
    ... about others not condemning these regimes now when you are a past supporter of them.

    You're trying to justify supporting terrorism before you were against.

    Parent

    Sailor (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 03:44:15 PM EST
    I have made no false statements. I have merely asked for their support, and for a demonstration of that support. That they do not or can not is another issue.

    As for your last sentence I really don't know what you mean.

    Are you saying that the US' support of the Afghanistan rebels were terrorists when they were attacking the Soviets?

    So you rather have an enemy suceed?

    Parent

    we can't support hypocrisy (none / 0) (#84)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 04:10:52 PM EST
    first you support the terrorists and then you don't. No sane person could possibly keep up with your flip-flopping.

    You asked 'the left' to condemn the very people you voiced support for.

    Parent

    Sailor (none / 0) (#92)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:27:40 PM EST
    What terrorists are you speaking of?

    Really sailor, you must do better than that.

    Parent

    By definition (none / 0) (#95)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:34:22 PM EST
    If ppj supports terrorists they are automatically called freedom fighters, by him and his right wing death squad pals.

    Ergo, ppj never supports terrorists. Got that Sailor?

    Parent

    Squeaky the smearer (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:48:26 PM EST
    By definition when you make such a claim, after I have denied it and you have provided no proof, you have  made a smear.

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.



    Parent
    You are the smear king (none / 0) (#99)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 06:18:20 PM EST
    Out of context quotes ids your speciality.

    Out of context you have changed my quote to read that I never need proof to smear anyone. Quite a difference from what I actually said. But obviously lying and spin is your trade here, so your smear comes as no surprise.

    If you were not so thouroughly dishonest my quote would read

       

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I [need proof about Rove]  

    Your emulation of Nazi loving Rove is pathetic, gross and disgusting.  

    Parent

    Won't work on several levels. (none / 0) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:29:06 PM EST
    Your excuse for what is an obvious "ends justifies the means" moral position is that your opponent is evil.

    All opponents are evil. Are we expected to believe that you will adopt a different position against Bush? Cheney? Me??

    Your first comment was made 9/19/05/. Now, what is your position today?


    ppj does as ppj does (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 09:58:35 PM EST

    (I had commented.) So because Rove is doing wrong, it is okay for you to do wrong?

    (You replied.)I have no problem with alleging that Rove's grandparents were Nazi's. Even if they were not, he uses Goebbels' propaganda techniques as a bible and may as well be a born and bred Nazi.

    And now you prove my point with this:

    Your emulation of Nazi loving Rove is pathetic, gross and disgusting.

    Have a nice day.

    Parent

    You really don't want to go there (none / 0) (#101)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 06:25:03 PM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ
    October 13, 2006 11:44 AM

    DA and Sailor - Bah humbug. That's the story I heard and I'm sticking to it..


    and of course the one where ppj called for the deaths of American polictical leaders, which Jeralyn has asked me not to post anymore.

    So, 'you in the glass house, stop throwing stones!'


    Parent

    Sailor (none / 0) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:31:42 PM EST
    What? I made a mistake over the covering of the statues around Ashcroft and you find that important??

    Wow.

    Parent

    Just (none / 0) (#75)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 02:37:45 PM EST
    wondering when Allgre gets around to calling it "a myth" like you, Jim.

    Maybe you should send hinm some of that latest, cutting edge, data you're obviously privy to.

    You will have to ask Allgre himself. (none / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:29:51 PM EST
    As for data, I provide links, you provide snarks.

    Thanks for making me look good.

    Parent

    Look at all that real estate... Free. (none / 0) (#80)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 03:37:51 PM EST
    Conservapedia (none / 0) (#88)
    by roy on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 04:48:38 PM EST
    Apparently, it sucks.  But it has a picture of Jesus riding a dinosaur.

    (h/t Fark, which you should read regularly)

    Heh. (none / 0) (#89)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:00:08 PM EST
    Their entire entry for "Scooter Libby" is this:
    Scooter Libby is a former deputy secretary of defense, national security advisor to the vice president, chief of staff to the vice president and private attorney.

    Good thing they are current, and so educational.

    They have no entry for "Felon". Anybody feel like fixing that?

    Parent

    My new favorite (none / 0) (#128)
    by roy on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 02:36:06 PM EST
    Under scientist:

    Science has a strong liberal bias and should be seen in this context.


    Parent
    Too funny. (none / 0) (#129)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 03:14:02 PM EST
    I'm tempted to look up "reality" there.... but I'm slight concerned with losing touch with it, even for a moment. ;-)

    I'm sure that won't be a problem for anyone who take would Conservapedia's definitions as gospel, though.

    Doesn't "pedia" mean "many legs"?

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:45:57 PM EST
    Tired of bringing up SA? Nope. My point is that they are just one of many, and the first example I used was from SA.

    The Left's problem is that it concentrates only on the sins of the US, with a nod to the sins of the western world from time to time. I think I have beat that point into the ground and if you have read the thread, you understand that.

    Another reason why I think it is important is simply this. If we are to live in peace with Moslems as a group, then we must either accept their absolute belief in Shari law, or they must reform their religion.

    Personally I do not think they are capable of doing that, and that is a terrible comment because it means that we must go to war with them and defeat them totally. That has been the big mistake  that Bush has made. He has assigned them western mores and motivations.

    So to see if we can avoid this war, I simply suggest that the Left take it upon themselves, as people who abhor war, to condemn those actions that should not be acceptable to anyone in the west.

    The more protests this draws simply reinforces the picture that the Left is not interested in winning, but in defeating "Bush."

    That is a most unworthy goal.

    Funny (none / 0) (#102)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 06:31:11 PM EST
    since ppj would give them arms in a heartbeat if he thought they might fight some other boogieman.

    ppj doesn't care how a country treats their people, whether they have elections, whether they are (gasp!) saddam hussein, he just cares 'his country, right or wrong.'

    It's a good thing that an ever increasing majority disagree with these warmongering shortsighted policies.

    Parent

    Sailor (none / 0) (#111)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:08:37 PM EST
    I suppose you think Germany was a boogey man?

    The Soviets?

    Iran?

    The only thing funny is you trying to defend a position that says it is okay to not condemn the killing of gays and lesbians.

    Parent

    ppj supports terrorists ... (none / 0) (#117)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:12:35 PM EST
    ... admitted to it, and will be proud to do it again.

    I guess that's what 'social liberals' do.

    Parent

    Not clear (none / 0) (#106)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:33:19 PM EST
    why you think you need to lecture posters on this blog about radical religious nutballs.  There's wide agreement on this blog, and among liberal Americans in general, that the practices you mention are atrocious.

    On the other hand we are not complicit in what those regimes are doing.  We are however complicit in the war because we fund it and because it is our people doing the unnecessary killing and the unnecessary dying.  And the tragedy of it is we are complicit with the Saudi atrocities because of our entangled economies and political alliance.  

    And then Jim, you and others who give aid and comfort to the GOP are especially complicit, in that support for Republican foreign policy, constitutes economic and moral support for SA.   After 9/11 there should have unanimous outcry from the media and citizens across the political spectrum to sever all ties with the regime that spawned that stupendous catastrophe..  

    But your President remains in bed with them even as he invades other countries, countries that had nothing to do with the killing of thousands of American citizens.

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#113)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 09:16:40 PM EST
    why you think you need to lecture posters on this blog about radical religious nutballs.
     

    Because their nutballs are always christian. Could we please have a little of the other side?

    There's wide agreement on this blog,

    I grew up in a time when what passed as liberals of that time were all agreeing that the treatment of sharecroppers was terrible. Didn't do a but of good. What fixed it was factories moving south and the unions that followed.

    My point was and is a moral point.

    You go immediately to politics. That is your focal  point.

    Want to meet the problem?

    Got a mirror??

    It is better to strike one match than curse the darkness.

    Parent

    As if you will read this (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:10:16 PM EST
    Politics is what this is about.  You ask for protest, protest is a political action.  So is War, a topic interwoven with this conversation.  So is Sharia stoning of rape victims.  So is every Saudi Royal visit to the White House.  

    Everything we're discussing here is politics, don't kid yourself.  

    What are we as American citizens complicit in, Where does our money go?  On whom do we depend?  These are important questions, whether you like it or not.

    Clearly you aren't concerned with this Govt's relationship with SA.  Nor SA's connection to 9/11.  That's fine.  To see it would involve seeing Iraq as a snipe hunt along the order of Terri Shiavo's brain and Josh Sparling's credibility. :-o

    You people don't give a crap about human rights.  In light of recent decades it is flat-out hypoctitical to speak out on behalf of human rights and then vote Republican.

    You got your freedom fries and still manage to shed a tear whenever you hear TAPS.  Be happy with that.

    Oh, and:

    Because their nutballs are always christian. Could we please have a little of the other side?

    Which makes perfect sense considering that, duh, we're in the United States, not Saudi Arabia, not Iran, not Pakistan.  First and foremost you worry about what is happening at home.  That is, if you're sane.

    But wait!  I just remembered, and took a shot of expensive Scotch in honor of, your whole paranoid pray rug thing.  Doing Little Green Footballs proud, a veritable army of wannabe Paul Reveres, warning that this country will be under the lash of Sharia Law in a generation and that we'd better get those rugs now while they're on sale.

    Stay alert and stay with Fox.


    Parent

    ROTFLOL (none / 0) (#118)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:23:15 PM EST
    Which makes perfect sense considering that, duh, we're in the United States, not Saudi Arabia, not Iran, not Pakistan.  First and foremost you worry about what is happening at home.  That is, if you're sane.


    Parent
    Squeaky (none / 0) (#121)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 08:12:14 AM EST
    First and foremost you worry about what is happening at home.  That is, if you're sane.

    Like most things in life, it is a question of degree.

    I have suggested a mere 25% of your time be devoted to condmening the despicable acts committed against women, gays and lesbians

    You reject even that.

    I really don't understand your motive.

    You can condemn the war and also condemn stoning women for adultery.

    That isn't a mutually exclusive act.

    Or is it?


    Parent

    Stay alert and stay with Fox. (none / 0) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 08:43:24 AM EST
    Well, it is somewhat better than watching Oprah.

    And glad you liked my "prayer rug" shot. One of these days I'll have to read LGF enough to understand your hatred of it.

    You people don't give a crap about human rights.  In light of recent decades it is flat-out hypoctitical to speak out on behalf of human rights and then vote Republican.

    You people? Nice. I bet you have friends who actually voted for Bush. How gracious of you.

    I am glad the Repubs didn't take that position with the Demos on civil rights.

    And Taps? Yes, I have heard Taps and shed tears over the death of friends and shipmates. There was no politics there. No snarky attacks. Just the sudden finality of death and an empty void in the heart.

    And I understand that for you everything is politics. But for many, thank God, that is not true.

    My comments here have been based on what I see as a lack of support for women's rights, as well as the rights of minorities. The examples I have used are "honor killings" of females which are known about in Pakistan, France and Germany. Hanging of gays in Iran. Lashing of rape victims because they are guilty of being alone with a male not of their family, who was also one of the rapists in SA. And I could provide more.

    I suggested that it would be helpful if we could see more condemnation of these acts by the Left.

    I didn't demand the Left stop it's attacks on the war, Bush, etc. I just asked, why not devote 25% of your efforts to this important and moral issue?

    The answers I have received are demonstrative of the real positions and aims of many of the anti-war people.

    Parent

    Quotables (none / 0) (#127)
    by glanton on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 11:38:03 AM EST
    My comments here have been based on what I see as a lack of support for women's rights, as well as the rights of minorities.

    ...said the guy who votes and shills for Republicans.

    No snarky attacks. Just the sudden finality of death and an empty void in the heart.

    ...said the guy who votes and shills for those who trade in such things.

    Anyway, I don't really understand your persistance in ignoring what people write while at the same time offering to "respond" to them.  As I have said before this is probably the biggest reason so many of your exchanges break down into absurdity, name calling, etc.

    I kept hoping you'd understand the importance of the fact that while we fund, and are therefore complicit in, the snipe hunt in Iraq, we bear no responsibility for Sharia atrocities. So of course we feel, infinitely moreso, the sting of that which has actually sucked us in, that which actually impacts us.

    You know, every now and then even a blind groundhog will find an acorn. Or something like that.  So in that spirit I'll try once again to get a coherent answer from you to this:

    If you are as outraged as you claim to be over 9/11 and over the atrocities of Sharia, then why in Heaven's name would you vote for the Party that to this day remains politically and economically in bed with the biggest culprit of them all, Saudi Arabia?

    Oh, I got it.  "Interests" trump morality, right?  Well then, explain how 9/11 served our interests.  Except for being exploited by the same people who are in bed with SA in the first place, that is..... :-O

    Again:  After 9/11 there should have unanimous outcry from the media and citizens across the political spectrum to sever all ties with the regime that spawned that stupendous catastrophe.  Instead we got, and still get, the snipe hunt.

    You vote GOP that means no moral standing in the area of human rights.

    But don't worry, keep prattling.  And above all

    Stay alert and stay with Fox.    

    Parent

    Demanding that liberals (none / 0) (#123)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 08:39:02 AM EST
    condemn "the despicable acts committed against women, gays and lesbians" while supporting George W. Bush's Iraq and Mid-East Debacle is being hypocitical in the extreme. I have yet to see even one of Bush's war supporters condemn even once what they so loudly demand that others condemn:
    After 4 years of illegal, violent Occupation the post-invasion excess deaths in Occupied Iraq total ONE MILLION (UN Population Division and medical literature data).
    ...
    Three quarters of the people of Occupied Iraq and Occupied Afghanistan are Women and Children.

    The Bush War on Terror is in horrible reality a cowardly War on Women and Children, a War on Asian Women and Children and a War on Muslim Women and Children.
    A million people have died because of Bush's supporters; most of them women and children.

    Step up to the plate and condemn this travesty of a human rights violation that you have supported for so long and you are a moral accessory to, or STFU.

    Edger (none / 0) (#125)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 08:58:44 AM EST
    I have merely asked that, for a brief moment, that you take politics out of it, and condemn despicable acts by radical Moslems, and some who trend in that direction.

    I didn't ask that you agree with the war.

    In fact, I pointed out that you can do both.

    Yet you demand that I condemn the war, etc., etc.

    Why is that?? If the war ended tomorrow, would this not happen?

    Here, open the link.

    Zand-Bonazzi: Well, sadly this young woman was hung in public charged with adultery. The man with whom she had allegedly had sexual relations with was also arrested but he only received 75 lashes apparently and then freed!

    It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness.


    Parent
    If this guy (none / 0) (#126)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 11:06:09 AM EST
    had ever noticed a "despicable act" that wasnt commited by radical Muslims, he might have a little more credibility here.

    Oh yeah, there was that despicable comment made by the woman who's a staple on the news channel he's been promoting here for three years.

    In a New York Minute (none / 0) (#130)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 10:07:57 PM EST
    Everything Can Change

    In a New York Minute
    Things Can Get Pretty Strange