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Casus Belli? Iran Seizes British Sailors Who Board Iranian Ship

This sounds not good; a more detailed story here:

Iranian naval vessels on Friday seized 15 British sailors and marines who had boarded a merchant ship in Iraqi waters of the Persian Gulf, British and U.S. officials said. Britain immediately protested the detentions, which come at a time of high tension between the West and Iran.

In London, the British government summoned the Iranian ambassador to the Foreign Office and demanded "the immediate and safe return of our people and equipment." Iran had no immediate comment.

Britain's Defense Ministry said the British Navy personnel were "engaged in routine boarding operations of merchant shipping in Iraqi territorial waters," and had completed a ship inspection when they were accosted by the Iranian vessels.

Routine boarding? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

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  • Display: Sort:
    McCain trying to turn up the heat? (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 01:05:10 PM EST
    U.S. Senator and Republican presidential candidate John McCain, R-Ariz., says there isn't much America can do about Iran's decision to take British military personnel into custody this morning.

    But he says there is something the British can do.

    During an interview with WLS Radio in Chicago Friday, McCain said Britain should threaten "very decisive action" for what he calls a gross violation of international law by the Iranians. And he says the United States can only provide moral support.

    NewsWacks

    I guess we can expect the wacks to start screaming "we can do more than provide just moral support"

    Oil prices jump (none / 0) (#33)
    by dutchfox on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 06:09:52 PM EST
    Are the Brits justified in (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by bx58 on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 02:57:20 PM EST
    bombing and killing oh I don't know let's just say a thousand civilians because of this?  

    If you use the Likudnik ratio of killing to kidnapping it will reach 7,500.

    Should they commit such an atrocity will Congress pass some sweeping resolution condoning it?

    They probably would.

    Diplomats (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 03:00:01 PM EST
    Maybe they are pissed because of their claim that we siezed and are holding 5 of their diplomats.

    No telling what's up. I am sad to say that this administration has zero credibility. Makes it hard to feel good about being an American these days.  

    OT, but (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 03:35:00 PM EST
    Have you seen this?

    Parent
    No but (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:13:41 PM EST
    I knew about the performance. Also her book won some literary awards.

    Parent
    History (1.00 / 1) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 09:31:59 AM EST
    Seems like the radicals in Iran have a history of seizing hostages.... dating back to '79.

    These people do bad things because we continue to enable the.

    Time to shut'em down.

    (Water) Boarding, Hah, Pun! (none / 0) (#1)
    by Gabriel Malor on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 11:39:21 AM EST
    Is that a whisper of a "Blame the Western Power" I hear?

    The US and the UK on behalf of the Iraqi government and the rules of international warfare are authorized to regulate Iraqi waters. (In fact, the U.S. has been conducting operations in those waters since 1991.)

    Iran knows this, of course, and "routine boarding operations" are common. Perhaps Iran is seeking to make an international incident. They certainly cannot claim that they "accidently" seized British sailors doing what British sailors have been doing since this war began.

    Tonkin Gulf II? (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Sailor on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 12:45:27 PM EST
    we have no idea whose territorial waters the incident took place in. Relying on the brits to tell the truth is as silly as relying on the iranians or bushco to tell the truth.

    Of course there is precedent for the US to use such a lie to start a war, and there does seem to be a concerted effort by the US to gin up seemingly unrelated developments.

    Parent

    Oh, and BTW, (none / 0) (#6)
    by Sailor on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 12:50:19 PM EST
    it's casus belli

    Parent
    Thanks sailor (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 12:53:18 PM EST
    Brain fart from me.

    Parent
    Heh. (none / 0) (#9)
    by Gabriel Malor on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 01:05:48 PM EST
    Sailor, I'm just saying that the British sailors were doing what they were supposed to be doing. Yes, that may be a politically precarious mission, but what military action during wartime isn't? I'm happy that both parties are stepping back and taking deep breaths, but I'd prefer if the incident hadn't happened at all.

    And as far as "who ya gonna believe" goes: gee, I wonder.

    Parent

    BTW, (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Sailor on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 01:24:16 PM EST
    Yes, that may be a politically precarious mission, but what military action during wartime isn't?
    We're not at war with iran.

    Parent
    look at teh record (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Sailor on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 01:28:51 PM EST
    And as far as "who ya gonna believe" goes: gee, I wonder.
    All 3 nations have a history of lying;
    WMDs, 45 minutes till doom, holocaust denial.
    Which nations stand to gain from a international incident?
    bush has been pushing for another war, this one with iran.

    iran is about to go before the UN and would probably prefer not to have adverse publicity at the moment. (Not to mention they are the only one w/o nukes.)

    Parent

    Maybe, maybe not (4.50 / 2) (#11)
    by Sailor on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 01:23:09 PM EST
    Sailor, I'm just saying that the British sailors were doing what they were supposed to be doing.
    Not if they were doing it in iranian waters.


    Parent
    Interesting..... (4.50 / 2) (#10)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 01:11:39 PM EST
    I don't dispute your legal-ese...but find it kinda funny that of the countries involved (USA, UK, Iran), the one closest to the gulf (Iran) is the one not allowed to police the waters.

    Imperialism...alive and well.

    Parent

    Who says they (none / 0) (#14)
    by Wile ECoyote on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 02:31:34 PM EST
    are not allowed to police their waters?  As long as it is their waters.  

    Parent
    Imperialism? On who's part? (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 03:34:52 PM EST
    From what I heard on the news this AM, I think the claim here is that the Iranian ship left Iranian waters, went into Iraqi waters, took the Brits hostage while in the Iraqi waters, and then returned back to Iranian waters with the hostages. No?

    Parent
    Don't mind me.... (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 04:09:29 PM EST
    Just trying to think objectively...of the 3 countries (US, UK, Iran), which has the strongest claim to police the Persian Gulf?

    Last time I checked a globe, Iran is the closest to the Persian Gulf of the 3.  Therefore, of the 3, I think they have the best claim to police the Gulf.

    My snarky way of saying the US and UK have no right to be there...

    Parent

    I see your point (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:31:53 PM EST
    fair enough, but I don't think Iran should have any claim to Iraqi waters in the Gulf.

    Parent
    Or the (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:40:09 PM EST
    other way around?

    Parent
    So they're hostages now? (none / 0) (#21)
    by bx58 on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 04:09:55 PM EST
    What ransom have the Iranians demanded?

    I'm sure you heard that but who was doing the news report, Hannity or Brit Hume?

    Parent

    NPR (none / 0) (#28)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:25:08 PM EST
    My fine feathered friend. Take it up with them.

    Parent
    in other, less civilized times (none / 0) (#2)
    by cpinva on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 11:45:08 AM EST
    this would be an overt act of war. let's hope cooler heads in iran prevail, and it all turns out to be a horrid mistake, made by a (no longer) iranian naval commander, who can't read a chart.

    a quick return of personel and eqpt., apologies all around, and maybe a voucher for a free dinner for two in one of tehran's finer dining establishments, all returns to normal.

    It sure would..... (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:23:34 PM EST
    be an act of war...in different times, or a different place.

    If Iranian ships were in the Gulf Of Mexico, we'd be boarding those suckers, if not sinking them...and rightly so.

    But we own the Iraqi side of the Persian Gulf, right?  

    Parent

    CP (none / 0) (#3)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 11:46:38 AM EST
    You should work for State.

    Let's take a deep breath (none / 0) (#4)
    by Al on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 12:05:55 PM EST
    The Brits themselves are playing down the incident. From the BBC:
    The frigate's commander, Commodore Nick Lambert, said he was hoping there had been a "simple mistake" over territorial waters.

    "There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they [British personnel] were in Iraqi territorial waters. Equally, the Iranians may claim they were in Iranian territorial waters.

    "We may well find that this is a simple misunderstanding at the tactical level."



    Indeed (none / 0) (#35)
    by LarryE on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 06:44:45 PM EST
    It's also true that the boarding was, yes, routine. In fact, the article from the Beeb notes that the boarded ship, a merchant vessel, was suspected of smuggling cars.

    It's extremely unlikely that the boarding itself had anything to do with it. The issue would be where it took place. And the commander, while insisting the ship was in Iraqi waters, left open the possibility that the Iranians may have honestly felt otherwise.

    My concern about this, noted elsewhere in these comments, is not about this particular incident, which hopefully will turn out to be a quickly-resolved, minor league, squabble, but how easily any such incident, real or manufactured, could be escalated by any party looking for an excuse for war.

    Parent

    Media Spin (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 04:45:56 PM EST
    The Brits are now using the term "hostage" also.

    Fifteen Royal Marines and sailors taken hostage by Iran

    Fifteen British sailors and marines were seized at gunpoint by Iranian forces in the Gulf today.

    The men were in two inflatable boats on the Shatt al Arab waterway near Basra when they were surrounded by vessels from the Revolutionary Guard.

    Iraq and Iran have disputed ...

    ...navigation rights on the Shatt al Arab since 1935, when an international commission gave Iraq total control of the Shatt al Arab, leaving Iran with control only of the approaches to Abadan and Khorramshahr, its chief ports, and unable to develop new port facilities in the delta. To preclude Iraqi political pressure and interference with its oil and freight shipments on the Shatt al Arab, Iran built ports on the Persian Gulf to handle foreign trade. Iran and Iraq negotiated territorial agreements over the Shatt al Arab waterway in 1975, but by the end of the decade skirmishes in the area became prevalent. Full-scale war between the two countries broke out in Sept., 1980, leading to eight years of attacks on coastal areas (see Iran-Iraq War). The Shatt al Arab remains a source of conflict, as limited water access and unresolved maritime boundaries in the region persist.


    Hostages? (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:17:06 PM EST
    Wonder how many 'hostages' we have?  

    Parent
    Now... (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:22:45 PM EST
    That's not fair!!!! Is it? ;-)

    Parent
    EC's - every last one of 'em (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:23:25 PM EST
    Undocumented Pilgrims (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:38:45 PM EST
    Exactly (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:52:40 PM EST
    Shameless self-promotion (none / 0) (#34)
    by LarryE on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 06:21:46 PM EST
    Like they say, GMTA.

    Writing today about the incident with the UK sailors, I noted that in prior discussions here on Iran and Iraq, I'd argued that

    [o]ne bit of "proof" that some Iranian forces inside Iraq fired on US soldiers, one Gulf of Tonkin-type "incident" in the Persian Gulf, and bam! there's the authority [for an attack on Iran under the War Powers Resolution].
    I then went on to say that we now have
    a climate (featuring a convenient "hardline" enemy) in which any minor incident can be escalated into a casus belli - and in the absence of a real incident, one can easily be provoked or even created.
    A bam! at any convenient time for the White House - including right now - can easily be arranged.

    Gulf of Tonkin (none / 0) (#36)
    by diogenes on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 07:52:47 PM EST
    If Bush is as trigger-happy as people say, and if the Iranians hold the British hostage, wouldn't an American attack on Iran be the fault of the Iranians?  That's no less absurd then the reasoning that the Americans are to blame because a suicide bomber puts kids in a car as shields to set off a suicide bomb that kills Iraqi citizens.

    Have the Iranians (none / 0) (#37)
    by dutchfox on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 08:42:57 PM EST
    held by the US a while back in Iraq been released?

    No (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 08:50:39 PM EST
    Rumor: Iranians will try hostage Brits (none / 0) (#40)
    by Gabriel Malor on Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 11:56:11 PM EST
    According to Timesonline the Iranians are thinking about trying the British soldiers for espionage.

    A website run by associates of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, reported last night that the Britons would be put before a court and indicted.

    Referring to them as "insurgents", the site concluded: "If it is proven that they deliberately entered Iranian territory, they will be charged with espionage. If that is proven, they can expect a very serious penalty since according to Iranian law, espionage is one of the most serious offences."