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Let the Games Begin: House Subpoenas Rove

We'll see how this plays out:

A House Judiciary subcommittee today authorized subpoenas for Karl Rove, President Bush’s political adviser, and other senior White House officials in the investigation into the firing of eight United States attorneys.

Democrats said the subpoenas, approved on a voice vote of the panel, would not be issued immediately but could provide leverage for Congress in trying to win the testimony of the aides being sought.

. . . Republicans on the subcommittee said they did not dispute the power of Congress to call the officials, but said the action was premature and smacked of politics. . . .

Score round 1 for the Dems. The GOP just conceded the officials can be called.

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    They had a free offer? (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:05:57 PM EST
    They had a free offer to speak with Rove,

    About what? The price of milk? Anything else is "National Security"? Reminds me of the South African character in Lethal Weapon II, who keeps shouting "Diplomatic Immunity!", right up to the time Danny Glover terminates his status (not that there's anything wrong with that).

    Speaking of ROFL (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:53:59 PM EST
    Testimony by a misinformed AG is also not a crime.

    Are you joking?

    Misinformed????

    I'm gonna bust a gut!

    And tell all the repugs (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 05:11:33 PM EST
    who think this is "just another waste of time" to sit down and shut up while our democratic process works itself out. Their continued denial of any wrongdoing on this issue is more evidence of their hypocritical misinformation campaign to validate their mistake for (re) electing known criminals.  

    My Biship for Your Rook (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by kaleidescope on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 05:32:46 PM EST
    Patrick Leahy can make it clear to Bush that there will be no judges approved until Rove and Miers and anyone else subpoenaed testifies under oath and in public.  

    To have no more Bush Article III judges approved would be a reasonable trade for not getting Turdblossom's testimony under the klieg lights.

    Firings and Pressure (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by naschkatze on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 05:46:03 PM EST
    Fritz, I have no opinion one way or the other whether Fitzgerald would bow to pressure.  I'm merely stately that ALL US Attorneys need to be interviewed regarding the findings of these two professors, Cragan and Shields.  Many people, including myself, were puzzled by Rove going before the grand jury five times and also being named "Official A" by the Special Prosecutor and yet walking away without indictment.  We do still have the right to question events.

    How Stupid (1.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Fritz on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 02:41:25 PM EST
    By over playing their hands, Democrats forced an issue that they will lose in Court.  They had a free offer to speak with Rove, that offer is off the table.  Like the Energy Taskforce, the Court will see this as incursion on the prerogatives of a separate branch of government.

    When on the other foot, Nancy Pelosi :  "The Justice Department was wrong to seize records from Congressman Jefferson's office in violation of the Constitutional principle of Separation of Powers, the Speech or Debate Clause of the Constitution, and the practice of the last 219 years. These constitutional principles were not designed by the Founding Fathers to place anyone above the law. Rather, they were designed to protect the Congress and the American people from abuses of power, and those principles deserve to be vigorously defended.

    Ha! (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:00:42 PM EST
    That is one of the most obtuse readings of the situation yet.

    Bush has to fire  Gonzo to have a prayer of a chance of winning this politically.

    You comment gave me a hearty chuckle. Thanks.

    Parent

    Gonzales cannot leave until after he cleans... (none / 0) (#7)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:20:26 PM EST
    up this mess or, at least, makes an effort to do so.  But, in the process, he may show to all that it is time to leave.

    Parent
    Then Bush has lost (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:30:46 PM EST
    That is  manna for Dems.

    Parent
    Isn't it a game of damage control for the Repubs? (none / 0) (#9)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:38:28 PM EST
    They have admitted mistakes have been made.  We know they have made mistakes.  The questions are what the mistakes were and whether they amount to crimes or abuses of presidential power.  And, of course, it does matter to them who, if anyone, is found to be responsible.  This game is in the first inning but Dems have had a big top half of the inning.

    Parent
    Accountability (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:47:44 PM EST
    The mistakes re quire someone be accountable for them.

    Parent
    Exactly. n/t (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:52:37 PM EST
    Josh Marshall (none / 0) (#18)
    by Fritz on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:18:04 PM EST
    Yes, mistakes.  They didn't recognize that with Democrats in power, every legitimate action by the Administration would be scrutinized as unethical.  Any removal of any US Attorney would be viewed as it is now being treated.  The mere mention of Rove was the icing on the cake.  I still maintain that they should have taken the offer to interview Rove, it would have given them better standing in court.

    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 05:18:54 PM EST
    And all of that other Al's other actions were legitimate and ethical too. That's why he was only charged with tax evasion, right Fritz?

    Parent
    The offer hasn't been rejected yet. (none / 0) (#34)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 05:58:07 PM EST
    They all seem to be in agreement that the offer will be revoked if they serve subpoenas.  Until then I think they are all feeling their way to see where they want to go with this.

    Parent
    That 70's Show mentality (none / 0) (#14)
    by Fritz on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:53:35 PM EST
    Have fun with this; Iraq=Vietnam, US A's=Watergate.  We are going to be victorious in Iraq, Rove will not testify.  By the time we get to 08 the same independents that put Democrats in power will be vengeful.

    Parent
    Jim thinks Iraq is WWII (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:43:49 PM EST
    I have never mentioned Vietnam ever in relation to IRAQ.

    Strange comment from you.

    A nonsequitor I would call it.

    Parent

    To you, everything is political. (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:40:43 PM EST
    Bush has to fire  Gonzo to have a prayer of a chance of winning this politically.

    Fritz was spot on.


    Parent

    Everything is political (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:42:54 PM EST
    thanks to the GOP.

    Parent
    No, thanks to your belief, (1.00 / 1) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:54:00 PM EST
    that you can force the country to go its knees and pull out of Iraq.

    That is the issue. The moral position of the US in reference to the terrorist in the ME, and how we deal with them. This is a clash of cultures and this will settle the direction the world takes for the next 1000 years. It is sad that you don't understand this, instead relating everything to politics, and how you can win.

    Your actions are not of WWII, but of the Left wing Democtrats during Vietnam.

    Parent

    OFF TOPIC (none / 0) (#38)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 11:47:04 PM EST
    and yet another personal attack.

    Please put the bottle down and let the adults talk about the topic at hand, which is about Rove and the authorization of subpoenas.

    None were issued, just authorized in case Rove et al refuse to at least have a transcript of their remarks.

    Gee, I wonder what they have to hide since bush has already ageed to let them talk, just not if they had to tell the truth.

    Parent

    Gonzales Promotion (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 10:22:50 PM EST
    Bush will play the loyalty card, whatever happens Gonzales get a promotion of some sort.

    Parent
    Halliburton Chief Counsel perhaps? (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 08:29:45 AM EST
    No crony left behind....I hear that squeak.

    I'm sure they'll find a lucrative spot for Libby post-pardon as well.

    Parent

    It's the crimes, stupid! (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by Johnbo on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:16:31 PM EST
    Fritz, you really need to get out more.  Take a break from the drivel delivered 24/7 by Faux News and the right-wing radio echo chamber.  Thier only purpose is to present half-truths, innuendo, and hyperbole.  

    The laughable assertion that "no crimes were committed" and that "Clinton dismissed all the federal attorneys" are just the latest examples of the kind of lying by distortion and half-truth that goes on daily.  Even experienced law makers pick this stuff up and repeat it.

    Crimes WERE very likely committed AND, although Clinton dismissed almost all attorneys when his presidency started, so did Bush and his father.  Is customary at the beginning of a term.  What ISN'T customary is dismissal with no apparent reason (or many conflicting reasons as we currently see) during the middle of a term.

    A Congressional Research Service report on the issue released yesterday examined the tenure of all U.S. Attorneys who were confirmed by the Senates between the years 1981 and 2006 to determine how many had served-and of those how many had been forced to resign for reasons other than a change in administration.

    "The answer is that of the 468 confirmations made by the Senate over the 25-year period, only 10 left office involuntarily for reasons other than a change in administration prior to the firings that took place in December, according to the available evidence gathered by CRS. The average incidence of such involuntary departures was one out of every two-and-a-half years; the largest number of such departures prior to this administration was a total of four departures during the Clinton administration.

        But the December firings by the Bush administration stand in even more stark contrast with the firings that took place in previous administrations when the grounds for the departures are examined. In virtually all instances prior to the December firings, including two previous departures during this administration, serious issues of personal or professional conduct appeared to be the driving issue." (hat tip to Scott Lilly at The Center for American Progress).

    The precedent for presedential advisors to speak before congress under oath is clear and established and well worn.  It is customary whenever there is the possibility of a crime.  Many of Clinton's advisors testified under oath and, as long as the Democrats have the clear and legitimate concern that crimes were committed - which they do - then Rove and Miers will be forced to testify - publicly and under oath.  You can count on that.  

    The crimes - which the Democrats DO need to be clearer about - are lying under oath to Congress (Gonzales et all) and threating attorneys with retaliation for testifying before Congress (something that very few are mentioning).  Lying to Congress and interferring with a Congressional investigation are both serious crimes.

    Let the subpoenas fly!!

    Parent

    Good Luck (none / 0) (#10)
    by Fritz on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:43:41 PM EST
    Democrats do not have a shred of evidence to indicate inappropriate actions, let alone a crime.  You guys simply want Rove on the stand.  It is not going to happen.  Testimony by a misinformed AG is also not a crime.  SCOTUS is not going to give you your show trial on speculation.

    Parent
    What's your favorite kool-aid flavor? (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Johnbo on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:10:45 PM EST
    Fritz, Fritz, Fritz, . . . Wake up, bro.  This administration is one of the most dishonest to ever pollute American politics.  They've got an established record of not only lying but threatening those that expose those lies. In fact, the way you know if someone in the Bush Administration is lying is if their lips are moving.  

    If you're a conservative don't you believe in accountability?  If you do, aren't you offended by the number of issues for which this administration has escaped accountability?

    So, just for drill, are you saying that the White House and Justice HAVEN'T issued numerous contradictions regarding the firings and that some of these contradictions HAVEN'T been under oath?  Are you not familiar with the email that H.E. "Bud" Cummins wrote to other federal attorneys that were dismissed stating that Mike Elston, a top aide to Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty, told him that if Justice Department officials "feel like any of us intend to continue to offer quotes to the press, or organize behind the scenes Congressional pressure, then they would feel forced to somehow pull their gloves off and offer public criticisms to defend their actions more fully."  Are you familiar with the crime of interfering with a congressional investigation?

    Parent

    Johnbo, I'm a gambling man (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:43:58 PM EST
    $20.00 that Rove does not testify under oath in answer to a subponea to congress.

    Loser pays  TalkLeft.

    You ready to put up??

    Parent

    I'm a sucker for a sure thing (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Johnbo on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 05:02:08 PM EST
    You got it, little buddy.  Get the check made out and ready to mail.  

    The precedent is clear and unambiguous.  If crimes may have been committed - which they VERY well may have been given the constantly changing statements some of which were under oath - then testimony CAN and WILL be forced - in public and under oath.

    Any questions?

    Parent

    US Attorney firings (none / 0) (#4)
    by naschkatze on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:07:42 PM EST
    A few days ago I posted a question here on whether or not it would be feasible for Congress to question all 93 US Attorneys regarding pressure from the WH to pursue its political aims.  Today I read on Bob Geiger's site of a study by two professors, Cragan and Shields, which tabulated investigations against elected officials and political candidates during the Bush 43 years, and the results showed 298 investigations of Democrats to only 67 of Republicans.  Feasible or not, Congress does need to interview all 93 US Attorneys.  I would also like to see Mr. Fitzgerald asked if any pressure was put on him not to indict Karl Rove in the CIA Leak case.

    Pressure (none / 0) (#15)
    by Fritz on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:56:11 PM EST
    Do you really think Fitzgerald would bend to pressure?  More conspiracy speculation.  ROFL

    Parent
    Did the professors also (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:46:28 PM EST
    survey those during the Clinton years??

    If not, why not?

    Smacks of bias!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I demand to know who pressured them!!!!

    Parent

    Gonzales is still there. (none / 0) (#6)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:16:41 PM EST
    Congress needs to make it's case with the public that it needs the White House officials to testify as well as White House docs (BTW have any docs in White House possession been turned over to Congress or have they all been DOJ docs?).  I think Congress should focus on DOJ personnel and docs, develop it's specific theories of criminality or abuse, and then move up the chain to the White House.  But then I'm just a voter.

    This reminds me of... (none / 0) (#12)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 03:51:39 PM EST
    This reminds me of the time Oliver North was called to testify before congress during Iran Contra. He testified under oath and admitted the scheme. By the time he was through he was the hero and congress looked like idiots.

    The only thing that will kill Bush on this one is if the US attorneys were pressured or fired for investigating the administration. Other than that people will look at this along partisan lines and that's all.

    Meanwhile, poor people need help, we're at war, and this is the drivel we're dealing with...

    Who's hero? (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Johnbo on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:39:12 PM EST
    Hey, HeadScratcher, scratch this!  The only reason North didn't do hard time for Iran-Contra was that Congress gave him immunity to get his testimony which it used to expose the network NOrth operated within.  The only reason more of his cronies didn't do hard time is because Bush l pardoned them all after stonewalling Walsh's investigation for years.  NOrth only a hero to the right-wing echo chamber of talk radio that somehow missed the part where he was involved in selling arms to a sworn enemy of AMerica to fund a group of right-wing thugs (Oh, I forgot,"Freedom Fighters")in Central America.  Constitution and the law be damned!!

    The longer the issue of the Administrations constantly-changing reasoning for firing many competent federal attorneys drags on, the worse it's going to be for the administration.  Every day new information surfaces that show the craven political motivations and the lying to cover it up. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of the numerous issues we could be investigating.

     Crimes were most likely committed and the American public is going to recognize that as the proof emerges - under oath and in public.  

    Adios, Gonzales (and the rest of the scum that rode in to town with Bush).  Getting off with a pardon is the best you can hope for now, amigo.  

    Parent

    Traitor Ollie (none / 0) (#35)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 10:00:10 PM EST
    [Oliver North] testified under oath and admitted the scheme. By the time he was through he was the hero and congress looked like idiots.

    Must have been a different Oliver North than the Reagan administration traitor, disgrace to a Marine uniform and waste of a Naval Academy education.

    Since North's testimony was that Ronald Reagan had violated the Constution, I still don't get why Reagan wasn't impeached.

    The "technicality" that got North out of jail was that because he had admitted his crime in front of so the entire country, he couldn't get a fair trial!  Damned activist judges!

    Parent

    I'm more or less unimpressed (none / 0) (#16)
    by peacrevol on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:07:01 PM EST
    What'll keep Karlito and any others from just lying. They wont ever get perjury charges against them. If they do, Bush will pardon them. Politics! What a joke.

    Cast your mind back... (none / 0) (#19)
    by jarober on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:34:51 PM EST
    Ask yourself this: What did it gain the Republicans during the late 90's, when they played "harass the administration"?

    The poll numbers for Congress are already lower than they are for the President (and boy, that's saying something).  Not only is this pointless, but it's a political loser as well.  It'll make the rabid base of the Democratic party happy (just as the 90's version made the rabid base of the Republican party happy).  Meanwhile, the people who mostly don't pay attention to politics will say - as they did then - "a pox on both their houses".

    Have fun while it lasts.

    Another rabid fan of accountability (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Johnbo on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:55:05 PM EST
    Um, jarober, the Republicans worked themselves into a froth over a "scandal" for which no one was convicted and a blowjob in the, um, Oral Office.  Oh, I forgot about Vince Foster's "murder".

    The Democrats (and their "rabid" base) are upset by, let's see, being lied into a war that has turned into the worse foreign policy blunder in American history, the "imperial" presidency of Bush which has denied access in numerous occasions to information needed for legitimate Congressional oversight - even by Republicans, issued "signing statements" in hundreds of instances that claimed the freedom to interpret laws the way they feel like - irregardless of Congressional intent, the circumvention of the court set up to issue warrants for wiretaps even though that court has rarely denied such wirtaps AND the law as written even allows for retroactive permission, and a general disregard for law and precedent not seen in modern history.

    Accountability is LONG past overdue.  And, when it comes - as it is now, I have NO doubt that the American people are going to "get" why it's both needed and important.

    Bush better get his pardon pen ready.  He's going to need it.  

    Parent

    this case (none / 0) (#37)
    by diogenes on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 10:38:25 PM EST
    This case is not about Iraq or the patriot act.  It is about firings of some US attorneys.  Bush is legally within his rights to fire anyone, I believe, so the question is a political one.
    Are people trying to set a precident to call James Carville to testify when Hillary is president?  Is this what people really want?
    Just like the GOP and Clinton, the Democrats are blinded by their hatred of Bush, leading to thrashing about irrationally.

    Gee, let's recap ... (none / 0) (#39)
    by Sailor on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 11:56:00 PM EST
    ... a staffer, not an elected official, slipped a clause into the PATRIOT act at the behest of the exec branch. Then the exec branch used that clause to to fire outstanding USAs that they had appointed in an unprecedented manor.

    And some of those good, loyal republican USAs were or had been investigating republican corruption. And then the DoJ lied to congress repeatedly about what the reasons were.

    Parent

    Diogenes (none / 0) (#40)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 12:39:28 AM EST
    This case is not about Iraq or the patriot act.  It is about firings of some US attorneys.

    In the case of Carol Lam, she was fired while knee deep in the investigation of the fallout from the Cunningham conviction. Lam had indicted Brent Wilkes, a defense contractor, and Dusty Foggo, the number 3 man at CIA til forced to resign amidst this mess, and quite possibly had illegal (and immoral) dealings with the war profiteering machine (fueled by our taxes-some more than others). This case could potentially lead directly to the oval office. That investigation has now come to a screeching halt while this whole mess gets sorted out. You bet your ass the Bush administration is going to drag this to the SCOTUS. And by the time any resolution threatens to arrive, they will be long gone.

    Lam is currently a corporate lawyer for Qualcom, and has yet to speak to the press about her communications with her superiors.

    My opinion (none / 0) (#41)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 12:43:03 AM EST
    is that we will not see any televised testimony by Rove, et al under oath. I hope I'm wrong.

    Different? (none / 0) (#42)
    by jarober on Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 06:43:10 AM EST
    It really doesn't matter what any of the attorneys were "knee deep" in - for that matter, the attorney running the Rostenkowski investigation back in 1993 was close to an indictment (the firing delayed that my months).  

    To which the answer is, "so what?" either way.  US Attorneys are "At Will" employees, who can be fired for any reason or no reason at all.  That's thw way the system works.  

    All we have here is a pseudo-scandal designed to avert our eyes from the fact that a thin majority can't really accomplish much - which is deeply troubling to the Democratic base.

    the shrill talking points ... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Sailor on Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 09:55:42 AM EST
    ... of the rightwing get repeated over and over.

    Grow up fellas, 'clinton did it' just plain isn't trrue. This is an unprecedented action taken by an admin that changed the law w/o congress' approval or knowledge strictly (as the emails proved) for the purpose of bypassing the senate and interfering with multiple investigations.

    You guys really should start thinking for yourselves instead of listening to rush and o'liely.

    Parent