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DNA Collecting Run Amok

The Bush Administration knows no bounds when it comes to violating our civil liberties. Here's the latest:

The Justice Department is completing rules to allow the collection of DNA from most people arrested or detained by federal authorities, a vast expansion of DNA gathering that will include hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants, by far the largest group affected.

The new forensic DNA sampling was authorized by Congress in a little-noticed amendment to a January 2006 renewal of the Violence Against Women Act, which provides protections and assistance for victims of sexual crimes. The amendment permits DNA collecting from anyone under criminal arrest by federal authorities, and also from illegal immigrants detained by federal agents.

Arrestees who have not been convicted of a crime should not be required to have their DNA sampled and collected. It's just the latest step down the slippery slope of over-intrusion into our privacy without just cause.

As Innocence Project co-director Peter Neufeld points out:

“Whereas fingerprints merely identify the person who left them,” Mr. Neufeld said, “DNA profiles have the potential to reveal our physical diseases and mental disorders. It becomes intrusive when the government begins to mine our most intimate matters.”

It's not acceptable for the undocumented either.

Immigration lawyers noted that most immigration violations, including those committed when people enter the country illegally, are civil, not criminal, offenses. They warned that the new law would make it difficult for immigrants to remove their DNA profiles from the federal database, even if they were never found to have committed any serious violation or crime.

DNA collection is far more intrusive than fingerprint collection. I hope this causes an outcry. I'm glad to see at least one women's group object:

“We were stunned by the extraordinary, broad sweep of this amendment,” said Lisalyn Jacobs, vice president for government relations at Legal Momentum, a law group founded by the National Organization for Women. “The pervasive problems of profiling in the United States will only be exacerbated by such a system,” Ms. Jacobs said, because Latino and other immigrants will be greatly over-represented in the database. She noted that the law required a court order to remove a profile from the system.

This will also create a backlog, which means delay in collecting the DNA of convicted offenders.

Currently about 150,000 DNA samples from convicted criminals are waiting to be processed and loaded into the national database, Mr. Fram said.

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    Only the People with DNA Should Be Concerned (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by The Heretik on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 02:00:35 AM EST
    Franz K says: All your DNA are belong to us.

    Correct, but that's not the whole story. (none / 0) (#1)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 12:52:14 AM EST
    Jeralyn, you are correct to lay the blame at the Bush Administration for putting these changes at Justice into effect, but the DNA collection plan was started by the Clinton Administration. It's just a feature of our government that it's taken so long to impliment the changes.

    Here's the background to the story. In the late 1980s states started getting the idea that DNA collection of convicts would be a good idea. By 2000, all 50 states had some kind of DNA collection program in place, though not most were limited to certain catagories of convicts. Regarding the constitutionality of DNA collection, the Supreme Court in Massachusetts was fairly representative: "the high government interest in a particularly reliable form of identification outweighs the minimal intrusion of a pinprick." Landry v. Attorney General, 429 Mass. 336 (1999).

    During the 1990s, however, various law enforcement officials, state governments, and the Justice Department got the idea that DNA collection of people who are merely arrested, rather than convicted would be a good idea. In poking around for news articles on the development of federal DNA collection, I ran across this N.Y. Times piece by the now infamous Jayson Blair from August 1999. In it he writes:

    The leadership of a worldwide association of police agencies has called for collecting DNA samples from all crime suspects as soon as they are arrested.

    Later in the piece, he mentions:

    The resolution urges the Federal Government to create a national DNA database based on samples collected at the time of arrest, a concept that the Justice Department is studying.

    That last bolded bit refers to the work of Attorney General Janet Reno, who convened the National Commission on the Future of DNA Evidence and proposed expanding the FBI's existing DNA database, created under the 1994 DNA Identification Act, to include samples taken from everyone arrested in the United States. See Matthew Brelis, Missing evidence;In pursuit of crooks, DNA counts, Boston Globe, March 14, 1999, at C1.

    Even as law enforcement agencies called for the change, privacy advocates noted that the collection of arrestee DNA is enormously intrusive, despite the courts' characterization of it as "just a pinprick." See e.g. Robyn E. Blumner, Hand over your driver's license and your DNA, St. Petersburg Times, March 14, 1999, at 4D; Ted Bunker, One small step for privacy, Boston Herald, April 5, 1999, at 29; Ioannis C. Gatsiounis, DNA data bases fight crime at the expense of privacy, Denver Post, June 4, 1998, at B-11.

    Janet Reno's proposal was taken seriously and the present expansion is the result.

    Without having given it a great deal of thought, I doubt very much that routine DNA sampling for arrestees would pass Fourth Amendment muster. DNA intrusion for convicts has only withstood scrutiny because convicted criminals have a reduced privacy expectation. With regard to arrestees, the government would have to argue some exception to the probable cause and warrant requirements.

    Finger prints (none / 0) (#3)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 09:49:10 AM EST

    Those arrested are finger printed.  DNA seems to be just an improvement in method.  Is there some reason that finger printing those arrested is OK, but DNA is problematic?

    Because ... (none / 0) (#4)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 10:51:08 AM EST
    ... it's hard to recreate a person from fingerprints.

    Parent
    I call dibs on my own body parts (none / 0) (#5)
    by roy on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 11:20:34 AM EST
    Finger printing doesn't involving taking anything from the accused.  DNA involves taking part of the accused's body.

    (I make no claims on the legal weight of this, I just think it's creepy)

    Parent

    Yet again another way for the government... (none / 0) (#6)
    by Bill Arnett on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 01:03:08 PM EST
    ...to waste billions and billions and billions of dollars beefing up ways to persecute people while ignoring the critical aspects of governing for the good of all citizens.

    If such a database is allowed to come into existence it will not be long after that employers, insurance companies, health care organizations, etc., will be permitted to use the database as a means to deny employment, life insurance, professional licensing, and health insurance based upon the genetic factors identified by the government and maintained by them with no opportunity for anyone to review, correct, or assure the accuracy of the DNA-typing done.

    This isn't "Big Brother" and just surveilling you; despicable enough.

    This is playing "god" and can be used to deny you of any/all aspects and benefits of a civilized society.

    How long before the government seeks to use the info to "deal with" (use your imagination) those genetically inclined to mental illness, disease, or likely to be socially malcontent?

    Is that it? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 01:26:29 PM EST

    Is your point that potential misuse of DNA data is the only substantive difference with finger prints?

    "If such a database is allowed to come into existence..."

    It already exists.  Are any of the abuses you point to exist in reality?

    Parent

    See comment #11 or use the google (none / 0) (#12)
    by Bill Arnett on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 02:26:09 PM EST
    to find "DNA testing for employment."

    Parent
    I agree with AAA (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 01:43:10 PM EST
    If they're already taking your fingerprints for a database, what's the big deal about a cheek swab?

    Sailor, since very single medical lab in the world is already full of people's DNA samples, it's hard for me to think this would constitute any kind of legitimate sea-change.

    fingerprints ... (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 02:30:40 PM EST
    ... do not contain information on your family or how to build a new you.

    Parent
    Sailor (none / 0) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 02:39:41 PM EST
    my point is every med lab in the world has thousands upon thousands of DNA samples.

    What is so different about these DNA samples?

    Parent

    I could be wrong.... (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 04:05:33 PM EST
    but I think a private lab needs your permission before taking a dna sample.

    The state is proposing taking samples by force, if necessary.

    I think you have an inalienable right to keep your genetic makeup private, if you so choose.  Even if convicted of something.

    Parent

    kdog (none / 0) (#20)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 04:27:47 PM EST
    I haven't been clear. Right now, today, every med lab in the world that does biopsies, blood tests, urine tests, hair tests, etc., etc., has piles and piles of DNA "samples."

    If, as Sailor said, the concern is that "someone" could obtain information of someones else's family or build a new somebody via getting a hold of other's DNA, that horse has long ago left the barn.

    Parent

    Labs ... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 04:50:36 PM EST
    ... don't keep samples and don't generally know much patient ID.

    If they did run DNA testing on every sample and kept it in a database (very cost prohibitive) with patient ID it would be similar to what the gov't is proposing.

    Parent

    I'm still lost. (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 05:17:21 PM EST
    I'm don't think anyone can "build a new you" from the data in a computer file.

    Parent
    Point taken...... (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 05:21:22 PM EST
    and kinda scary to think about.  All the blood tests and urines tests over the years....makes you wonder, as dna technology continues to advance, whether enough safeguards are in place for the private sector.

    As with others here...my main beef is with the "by force" part.  If a suspect/prisoner chooses to give up a sample, fine. However, if you cherish the privacy of your genetic makeup, for any reason, you should have the right to refuse to give a sample, even if in state custody. IMO

    Parent

    Market Forces (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 05:26:05 PM EST
    Good thing that it is expensive to do a DNA test. Otherwise the labs would have already scanned their clients blood and urine and sold it to the gov in the name of national security, just like the phone companies did.  

    Parent
    Kdog (none / 0) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 07:03:10 PM EST
    You and roy have made me think about this one. It does seem kinda creepy to have part of your body taken involuntarily.

    However, when they take a fingerprint, they are actually taking part of your body - the skin cells from the ridges on your finger tips - so what's so different about the skin cells in a cheek swab?

    That said, I'll bet one's DNA could be ascertained from the fingerprint skin cells as well...

    Parent

    Oops, please ignore preceding comment (none / 0) (#36)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 07:11:36 PM EST
    For some reason I had a picture in my head of using a scotch tape-like substance to take one's fingerprints.

    Obviously that's wrong, as you stick your fingers in ink and press them on paper to get the fingerprint.

    Sorry - it's been a while since I was last fingerprinted!

    Parent

    Again with the sci-fi. (none / 0) (#16)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 02:46:42 PM EST
    In the interest of not getting too far afield from what's doable -- no one has used human DNA to create viable clones in a lab. That remains part of science fiction, rather than science fact.

    And, incidentally, a clone is not a "new you." It may share your genetics, but it will likely have a different phenotype, and, of course, it will be its own person, with its own independent rights.

    Parent

    the future (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 05:16:45 PM EST
    "no one has used human DNA to create viable clones in a lab"
    Yet.

    The main problems are:
     the gov't can't even make SS numbers secure, do you trust them with the database of you and your family's genetic history? The mission creep involving SS#s should serve as perfect example of when the current gov't says 'we would never do that', later administrations will.

    It's an obvious violation of 4th Amendment, 'secure in our persons.'  What could be more 'our persons' that the genetic blueprint of our persons?

    The gov't has already used eugenics to forcibly and/or secretly sterilyze people, imagine what they could do with DNA.

    Sheesh folks, let's go all the way and make every newborn donate their DNA just in case they commit a crime, or the gov't wants to identify them and their families, in the future.

    If people can't see what an incredible intrusion this is on our freedom you've not been paying attention.

    Parent

    That's not the future. That's the past. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 05:33:17 PM EST
    It's an obvious violation of 4th Amendment, 'secure in our persons.'  What could be more 'our persons' that the genetic blueprint of our persons?

    The gov't has already used eugenics to forcibly and/or secretly sterilyze people, imagine what they could do with DNA.

    First, the Fourth Amendment does not prohibit all searches and seizures of "our persons." Rather, it only requires that searches and seizures be "reasonable." That's why the government can fingerprint arrestees and conduct pat-downs and stops on the street without warrants -- they are deemed "reasonable searches and seizures." The DNA collection will only be considered "an obvious violation" of the Fourth Amendment if no argument can be made for the reasonableness of such a search.

    Second, how could the horrifying scenario you create not be "an obvious violation of the [Fifth] Amendment?" You expect that we're going to do away with 80 years of law? Again, why would Congress or the courts do that? Why should such a farfetched scenario be considered a good argument?

    Parent

    Stop right there (none / 0) (#38)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 08:07:14 PM EST
    You cherry pick something your life has never prepared you for and think you scored 'points.'

    You don't get it. Our lives an every other Americans' lives and freedoms depend on issues just like this.

    In his defense; Gab is a callow law student and exploring bounds of which he knows not.

    He apparently thinks these intrusions will never impact his life.

    He'll learn the hard way, just like most of the rest of us adults have.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#32)
    by Patrick on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 06:06:17 PM EST
    Sheesh folks, let's go all the way and make every newborn donate their DNA just in case they commit a crime,

    But can I wait till after I put the RFID chip in their shoulder?  

    Can you envision a scenario where you'd agree with DNA collection.  

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#21)
    by Patrick on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 04:38:11 PM EST
    So under what particular circumstances would you support the collection of DNA?  It's a serious question.  Where is the threshold of acceptable intrusion given the value of DNA in today's justice system?  Is there one, given the secrets yet to be uncovered in DNA?  

    Parent
    As for me... (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 05:32:08 PM EST
    Anytime the suspect or convict or whoever consents to giving a sample.  No consent, no sample...

    My far-out view...taking a piece of me is an inherently unacceptable intrusion, unless I consent.  I think we have an inalienable right to our very selves.

    As Sailor noted, remember when the govt. said our SS numbers were not to be used for identification purposes?  God only knows how far they could take a dna database if we don't put the kibosh to this right now.  They will be pricking our fingers to get a library card before long...too scary.

    Parent

    Consent only? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Patrick on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 06:03:13 PM EST
    Not even post conviction?  Well, OK, you answered the question.  Not sure I'd agree.  

    Parent
    It's a serious question (none / 0) (#37)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 07:51:47 PM EST
    It is a serious question.

    As a scientist; I know that the current state of forensic DNA evidence, (evidence, not technology), is able to exclude people. It can't be relied upon to say 'this person did it.'  Exclusion is easy, inclusion is statistically unsupportable (ie.g. see bite mark evidence ).

    As an American; if the gov't can make this info be forcibly compelled against a citizen, especially when there was no conviction for a crime that DNA could have/would have solved, it just smacks of yet another erosion of our rights.

    Parent

    How's that again (none / 0) (#40)
    by Patrick on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 09:29:57 PM EST
    It can't be relied upon to say 'this person did it.'

    Like fingerprints, it can't tell you when it was placed, but if it got somewhere it wasn't supposed to be, the I believe it can.  Can you clarify this statement?

    Parent

    there are 3 billion ... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 10:01:38 AM EST
    ... letters in the DNA chain. Aside from the problem of when it was deposited there is the probem of uniqueness.

    Usually only 4 to 6 sequences are probed in forensic DNA typing.

    If the samples do not match, the person definitely didn't do it. If they do match the person is in a pool of people who might have done it.

    And the numbers that forensic scientists use, e.g. 37 mil to 1, don't take into account local population clustering of families.

    In the Bahamas for example almost every native Bahamian is descended from the same 200 families that founded the nation after the revolutionary war. And of course the old joke about there never being a successful rape prosecution in Kentucky because all the DNA is the same;-)

     

    it should be understood that the calculated frequency is an estimate, and can be off by an order of magnitude in either direction. Further, Inman said that "studies show that when databases grow, more loci (more discriminating loci) are required to support a strong inference of a common source." In other words, despite the statistical calculation of 1 in 37 million on six loci, that does NOT mean that the six loci cannot match more than one person in 37 million.

    The other controversy that has arisen is about how to interpret a match. What frequency should you put on it? How rare is a pattern? How odd is a match? And for this, the controversy is a technical one and a complex one, but it has to do with the fact that the frequency of the different DNA patterns of different genes vary across the population. This is actually a blood group frequency distribution. Similar things are known for other types of DNA differences. And so there has been active controversy about exactly what weight we should put on samples. Are the odds being quoted one hundred-fold too high? Are they exactly right? Maybe they're one thousand-fold too high. Scientists are arguing actively about this.

    There have been several cases of DNA misidentification.

    Parent

    Fair enough, (none / 0) (#42)
    by Patrick on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 01:34:26 PM EST
    but it sounds like your using an absolute certainty standard, vs the beyond a reasonable doubt.  I can agree that there are very few absolute certainties and DNA isn't one of them. For the purposes of judicial system it seems to still be valid proof.

    Parent
    Re Misidentification (none / 0) (#43)
    by Patrick on Tue Feb 06, 2007 at 01:37:44 PM EST
    Have there been real instances of this as a result of the science or just laziness/sloppiness on the part of the scientists?  

    Parent
    Toilet Paper? (none / 0) (#9)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 01:48:22 PM EST
    since very single medical lab in the world is already full of people's DNA samples, it's hard for me to think this would constitute any kind of legitimate sea-change.

    Yes and everyones computer is full of juicy stuff that the government would love to have on file, just in case they need it. That doesn't mean that they have a right to it.

    Better have a look at your copy of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, that is if you haven't already used it as toilet paper.

    Sounds more like a sci-fi novel, Bill. (none / 0) (#10)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 02:03:37 PM EST
    I don't want to give the impression that I'm in favor of DNA collection of arrestees, because I'm not convinced either way at the moment. (I'm kinda hoping to see some decent arguments for both sides.) I just want to point out that Bill's reasoning above is unsound and unpersuasive. He writes:

    If such a database is allowed to come into existence it will not be long after that employers, insurance companies, health care organizations, etc., will be permitted to use the database [in various patently undesirable ways.]

    The same argument was made against the collection of information by DMVs. In fact, state DMVs were selling personal information to various businesses as a form of revenue. Congress stepped in with the Drivers Privacy Protection Act in 1994 and stopped the practice. Why does Bill think that Congress cannot do the same for this information? And why does he not think that the Privacy Act of 1974 (which prohibits federal disclosure of personal information) wouldn't apply to DNA collections?

    The real problem with Bill's argument is that it rests on an increasing list of improbable events. First, we have to believe that Congress will amend or repeal the Privacy Act to allow the selling of the collected information. That's very farfetched.

    Then we have to believe that in the face of all the social harms he listed, Congress (not to mention the states) will take no action to protect us. Again, that's extremely unlikely.

    Finally we have to believe that Congress will enact a law that lets the government "deal with" certain groups of people. I assume "deal with" means imprison or euthanize. Again, what modern Congress would possibly do that?

    However, the most obvious reason that Bill's argument is a bad one is pointed out by Abdul. These types of databases already exist and we haven't seen the types of social harms that Bill is predicting.

    Look, I'm willing to be convinced that DNA collection is a bad thing, but just saying "Privacy, duh!" isn't very persuasive. Neither is the creation of farfetched doomsday scenarios. So far, Abdul has the best pro-collection argument: it's just an extension of current criminal techniques. Roy has the best pro-privacy argument: it's a bodily intrusion.

    I'm still not convinced either way.

    And ONLY in Fantasy Land such abuses as... (none / 0) (#11)
    by Bill Arnett on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 02:24:11 PM EST
    ...THIS ever possibly occur, eh, Gabriel?  Love the way you are so dismissive in the face of REAL EVENTS like:

    Railroad to Pay $2.2 Million in DNA Test Case Illegally Testing Workers for Genetic Defects.

    WASHINGTON -- Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corp. agreed on Wednesday to pay $2.2 million to settle charges of illegally testing workers for genetic defects in the government's first case against workplace DNA discrimination.
    While the company, one of the country's biggest railroads, denies it violated the law, the case was a milestone in the brave new world of medical privacy battles and DNA-based job discrimination.
    The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, or EEOC, had charged Burlington Northern with genetically testing or seeking to test 36 employees -- mostly track workers who said they had job-related carpal tunnel syndrome -- without their knowledge as part of a comprehensive diagnostic exam.
    The EEOC also charged that employees who refused to take the test faced possible discipline.
    The commission said the tests violated the 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act, or ADA, by subjecting the unknowing employees to DNA analyzes of whether they were genetically predisposed to carpal tunnel syndrome, a painful hand and wrist condition often caused by repetitive motion.
    "While the EEOC did not find that (Burlington Northern) had used genetic tests to screen out employees, employers should be aware of the EEOC's position that the mere gathering of an employee's DNA may constitute a violation of the ADA," EEOC Commissioner Paul Steven Miller said in a statement.
    The ADA bars employers from requiring medical exams unless they are needed to determine whether a worker can perform a particular job or poses a threat to anyone, EEOC attorney Laurie Vasichek said in an interview.

    But our government would NEVER stoop so low as to attempt using genetic markers to prohibit or deny employment, deny insurance coverage, or attempt to separate social malcontents, what with such law-abiding men as bush/cheney in charge.

    I reckon when ya possess infinite wisdom little thangs like facts jus' don' matter. This ain't science fiction any more.

    Parent

    Bad example. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 02:41:13 PM EST
    I reckon when ya possess infinite wisdom little thangs like facts jus' don' matter.

    Well perhaps you're not interested in facts. Do you read, sir?

    Fact: this wasn't the government using DNA material to discriminate. In fact, the government is the one doing the prosecuting, following an investigation by the EEOC. So, contrary to your implications, it appears that government abuse remains a part of your "Fantasy Land."

    Please sir, try again. A little more fact this time, if you please. It's possible that there are some out there that support your worse-than-Big Brother scenario, you just haven't presented any here.

    Parent

    Gabe, sorry for the infinite wisdom crack... (none / 0) (#17)
    by Bill Arnett on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 02:46:47 PM EST
    ...it was just a tad obnoxious, but I believe you are mistaken when you say:

    "...Neither is the creation of farfetched doomsday scenarios...."

    When something has been done by people who can affect your life forever, it is hardly a "farfetched doomsday scenario", but something that EXISTS NOW, not some future date.

    They didn't get away with it on this occasion, but when the government orders this done and kept secret, tell me how an ordinary citizen has any chance whatever to even determine if they tested the right person, tested the right DNA, and be guaranteed no data entry errors or abuses will ever take place.

    bush ignores any law he doesn't like. I'm SURE (snark) that protecting your privacy is paramount to him.

    S'okay, I cracked back. (none / 0) (#18)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 03:10:59 PM EST
    This medium really lends itself to sarcastic zingers, I admit. (I've noticed that the "Preview" button simultaneously improves my written product, while sharpening my sarcasm. I blame Jeralyn.)

    This is the part of what you're saying that I find farfetched: when the government orders this done and kept secret...

    First, even if the government were to do something like that, it's not like it's going to be secret for long. You're going to know about it if you're discriminated against and so are any others. Congress isn't just going to pretend it isn't happening and Congress isn't just going to sit there and let it happen.

    Second, you've fallen into the "Bush will do anything if it's evil" trap. It's probably just a function of Jane's Law of Politics because President Bush has been in office for six years now, but just because something is evil doesn't mean the President will be doing it. That's just hysterics.

    Third, President Bush will only be in office for two more years. And, as I documented above, the federal DNA database originated with the Clinton Administration.

    Parent

    Object! (none / 0) (#23)
    by 1980Ford on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 05:04:17 PM EST
    We don't need any better reason than Buck v. Bell. Some may disagree, but that case makes government DNA collection an open and shut case.

    Close the door on this.

    Like social security numbers and DMV records, and like just about everything the government does, the initial excuse for starting the process expands exponentially with each passing legislature and administration. And that's assuming we know their actual motivations now.

    Parent

    You know (none / 0) (#24)
    by Patrick on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 05:05:38 PM EST
    CODIS has been around for some time.  Some posters seem to be referring to this program in the future tense, but it already exists.  

    Appeal to Tradition (none / 0) (#33)
    by 1980Ford on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 06:30:10 PM EST
    And some are using this fallacy because it has been around.

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#34)
    by Patrick on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 06:47:51 PM EST
    So, my comment wasn't an appeal to tradition, just pointing out that referring to the CODIS database in the future tense was incorrect.  I'm not sure I'm following your point otherwise.  

    Parent
    Didn't mean you, Patrick. (none / 0) (#39)
    by 1980Ford on Mon Feb 05, 2007 at 08:36:33 PM EST
    But meant the posters who are saying our DNA is already collected or stored here and there. It may not be possible to stop this rumbling machine, but maybe we can slow it down.

    Parent