home

The Road To War With Iran Runs Through Iraq

In TChris' post highlighting Sy Hersh's article, he points to a critical point:

The panel initially focused on destroying Iran's nuclear facilities and on regime change but has more recently been directed to identify targets in Iran that may be involved in supplying or aiding militants in Iraq, according to an Air Force adviser and a Pentagon consultant, who were not identified.

I believe this is confirmation of my view that the road to war with Iran runs through Iraq.

For a number of reasons, the Bush Administration must use Iraq as the excuse for war with Iran. First, Bush has no legal authority to initiate war with Iran. Second, no one believes US intelligence. Finally, the military commanders are opposed to a strike on Iran, so the Bush Administration will need some strong PR to counter this opposition.

My conclusion remains the same, to prevent war with Iran, end the war in Iraq.

< Hersh Describes Contingency Plan to Attack Iran | Oscars Open Thread >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    The Christ killers (3.00 / 2) (#47)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 09:34:56 AM EST
    appreciate your and Mel's support, Jim.

    The new Hersh story... (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 02:40:04 PM EST
    ...more than describes how we already ARE at war with Iran in a manner that doesn't need Iraq at all, or American soldiers.  I suggest its the new paradigm: soldiers don't work, but civil wars do.  And they will try to foment civil wars wherever they think they need to.  The insidiousness never ends.  And the Military Industrial Complex is not going away when we pull out of Iraq, its merely shapeshifting.  I hope not, but it seems like it.

    I agree (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 02:46:46 PM EST
    And I also think they are working as hard as they can on the PR and spin they need to manufacture the ruse.

    Example: From the wingnuts at News Blaze:

    It was only a matter of time before Tehran had the Islamic units supplied with chemical weapons.
    ...
    Iran has all this and more in its inventory and it is at the Jihad's disposal. This may be the reason the Shi'ite Mahdi Army, under Cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, has been told to lay low for a while. Perhaps Tehran had them lay low while they were being supplied with these chemical weapons.

    They are going to do it, unless stopped. And I think the only thing left that can stop them is shining enough light on them that whatever ruse they want to use, it will be too blindingly obvious a lie.

    Bombing Iran (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 02:48:03 PM EST
    Saudi Intelligence has discovered that all the Iranian terrorist training camps are right next to the oil wells. What a coincidence. Wonder what would happen if the bombs inadvertently destroyed Iran's oil industry?

    Skepticism becomes certitude (none / 0) (#5)
    by Gabriel Malor on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 03:49:08 PM EST
    There is an increasing tendency to be skeptical of all war-related news that might lead to new fronts in the war on terror. Skepticism is, of course, prudent when dealing with large amounts of incomplete and contradictory information. But there comes a point when skeptics move from simply questioning pro-war information, to simply dismissing it out of hand.

    I noticed this tendency in BTD's posts about the possibility of attacking Iran. He wrote in "How to Blunder into Authorizing War With Iran":

    My basic premise is that Bush's only possible legal rationale for initiating a military conflict with Iran is by arguing that Iran is interfering in the Iraq conflict.

    He then quoted from a NY Times article about IEDs that originate in Iran and are used against our troops in Iraq. In response to claims that military officials were discussing the Iranian explosives merely because they are an important reality of the Iraq War, rather than as "groundwork" for a move on Iran BTD wrote:

    Riiiiiiight.

    But there was no discussion of whether or not the IEDs are in fact of Iranian origin and whether or not that makes Iran (or at least the Iranians providing explosives in Iraq) a legitimate target of war. It is simply assumed: Iran is not a legitimate target -- either because the story of Iranian IEDs is false, or because Iranian IEDs do not constitute an action for which the appropriate response is military action.

    Two days later BTD wrote a post with the lede "Krugman gets it." He then approvingly quotes:

    Now, let's do an O. J. Simpson: if you were determined to start a war with Iran, how would you do it?

    First, you'd set up a special intelligence unit to cook up rationales for war. . . . Next, you'd go for a repeat of the highly successful strategy by which scare stories about the Iraqi threat were disseminated to the public.
    ...
    But if you can claim that Iran is doing evil in Iraq, you can assert that you don't need authorization to attack -- that Congress has already empowered the administration to do whatever is necessary to stabilize Iraq.

    (Emphasis added.) Note, there's no discussion of whether or not rationales for war with Iran -- like Iranian IEDs -- exist. It must simply be a "cooked up" claim for war.

    This is where skepticism has tripped over partisanship and become certitude. Parts of the left are absolutely certain that there are no legitimate reasons for war or even more constrained military action. Intelligence leading to the conclusion that Iran is already engaged in a proxy war must be the product of a "special intelligence unit" -- by which "special (falsified) intelligence unit" is meant.

    squeaky, I mention the above to ask: what if Iranian terrorist training camps are in close proximity to Iran's petroleum infrastructure? Is that impossible? Are those terrorist camps off-limits because their destruction might help the Saudis?

    Skepticism is good. But just because we're suspicious of something doesn't mean we should dismiss it without consideration. In fact, skepticism should be leading us to deeper inquiry.

    Parent

    Read the thread below, kiddo (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Dadler on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 04:10:25 PM EST
    The one about the Seymour Hirsh story.  Read it well and ponder the unberable stupidity.  A repeat of "strategy" that had us funding and arming Islamic extremists and terrorists in Afghanistan in the 80's.  And that sound policy ultiimately resulted in...9/11.  

    The argument here, obviously, is not about merely opening up a new front in the (completely failed and inane) war on terror.  It's about an illegal front operating with pilfered money, without congressional awareness, carrying out a "strategy" to fund and arm terrorists groups including those affiliated with and sympathetic to Al Qeada -- which, forgive me, would go down with the American public as well as 9/11 itself did.

    And liberals are the ones emboldening terrorists?

    Orwell would be proud.


    Parent

    Dadler (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:01:18 PM EST
    Uh, I would argue that you, squeaky and edger are not liberals, but members of the left's anti-war faction which has become the base for he Democratic Party.

    I base that on your comments above, your comments regarding the demonstrations during Vietnam, and a total lack of support for Israel, Jews and outside of an occasional rant over the drug war, no support mentioned for national health care, gay rights, tax change and other issues that should be of key interest to any liberal.

    Parent

    Smear King ppj (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:14:11 PM EST
    and a total lack of support for Israel, Jews and....

    Anti-semites?  How's that? John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt on the money.

    Parent

    When they get nervous (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:22:38 PM EST
    they uncrate the swiftboats.

    Parent
    edger, do you really want to talk about smearing (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:36:06 PM EST
    Swift boats?? The following definition of how you conduct yourself during debates was written by you.
    It pretty well defines you.

    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 02:17:12 PM EST ......

    Anyone who wants me or others to be constrained from saying things that insult so that they will NOT feel constrained from doing things that kill, is trying to draw equivalence where there is none, and deserves absolutely no respect, civility, or any kind of tolerence whatever.

    Now, do you really want to talk about smearing?

    Parent

    The heart of the smear (none / 0) (#31)
    by scarshapedstar on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 07:27:14 PM EST
    is the lie. And you can't really call it a lie by omission, Jim. I'm talking about your claim of
    and a total lack of support for Israel, Jews and outside of an occasional rant over the drug war, no support mentioned for national health care, gay rights, tax change and other issues that should be of key interest to any liberal.

    Tax policy, Israel, and health care aren't really what I would consider TL topics to begin with, since they don't often come up in the criminal world. Well, okay, taxes certainly do, but I get the feeling you're talking about a different kind of tax policy. Still, none of us write the blog, and (unlike certain commenters I could mention) we generally try to make our input pertinent to the topic at hand. So, Glennuendo is kind of a silly accusation.

    Regardless, the "you guys hate gay rights" just seemed a little too much like... what's the word I'm looking for... bullsh*t, since it does come up fairly frequently. So, I took the highly unusual step of searching for "gay marriage" in the cleverly disguised "search" field on the right. Look what turned up!

    From "CA Judge Upholds Gay Marriage":

    by Dadler on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 02:34:03 PM EST
    good. and i'll say it for the umpteenth time: supposedly straight people who spend inordinate amounts of time worried about what gay people are doing are, well, GAY!! or at least curious enough to desire a good long look at the sexual buffet table. the puritans who founded this country loved their home-brewed beer and hated licentiousness. and look at us now. booze ads everywhere, but a flash of a halftime tit -- at a freakin' professional football game of all things (now THERE'S where values are to be found) -- gets the government and still puritan masses in a tizzy.

    You, on the other hand, apparently chimed in with a not-particularly-supportive "well, you guys just said nobody has a right to criticize a judge, you're all fascists!" or words to that effect; the actual comment's since been deleted or something.

    I sure wish I could comprehend the ways of the social liberal.

    Parent

    Wrong (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 06:47:08 AM EST
    If you can't provide a link, then I can't respond.

    Which you didn't want, anyway.

    My position re gay marriage hasn't changed, and has been in several comments.

    I don't care who marries who as long as they are consenting adults.

    My comment re gay rights is the fact that the Left never mentions the fact that gays are not tolerated under Sharia law, and routinely killed.

    Parent

    scar Why didn't you quote what I wrote?? (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:15:57 AM EST
    You had it right there. What's the matter? We both know the answer, the truth wouldn't fit in with your smear.

    You wrote:

    You, on the other hand, apparently chimed in with a not-particularly-supportive...

    So let's see what scar didn't want to bring into the open. nolo had written:

    by nolo on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 03:47:28 PM EST

    I'm so tired of those sorts of attacks on judicial rulings

    I replied:

    nolo - Why shouldn't people be allowed to criticize judges? They aren't untouchable, and should be subject to the same scrunity as the rest of the government employees, of which they are one. BTW - As to the ruling, I have previously commented that
    I don't give a flip who marries who.
    At best 50% of marriages end in divorce, anyway.

    Later QIB replied:

    by Quaker in a Basement on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:15:10 PM EST

    PPJ wrote: "Why shouldn't people be allowed to criticize judges?

    scar, that makes it plain that you didn't know what you were writing about.

    Parent

    They uncrate the swiftboats (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:48:21 PM EST
    because that is all they have, besides supporting and being accessories to psychopathic murderers and war criminals, so they have to hijack and divert and distract somehow.

    Cheney/Bush fully intend to attack Iran before Bush's term is up. I've been saying this since before the elections. Cheney's own words are too closely aligned with neocon wishes for any other conclusion to be reached.

    In the immediate area of the two attacks, our calculations show that within 48 hours, an estimated 2.6 million people would die.


    Parent
    edger, it gives me great pleasure to (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:58:17 PM EST
    demonstrate how you operate using your very own words.

    You can't deny them, and they are a dmaning indictment of anyone would call themselves a liberal.

    Parent

    And then they figure that they can twist the (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 07:05:31 PM EST
    definition of "liberal" into meaning someone who would have "tolerance" for psychopaths, murderers, war criminals, and child killers, as they do.

    It's been tried before. By neocons (neoliberals).

    The only people buying it are neocons and wingnuts... the 26 percenters and peasants.

    Parent

    You are not a liberal. (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 07:17:54 PM EST
    Your words are your words. They speak for themselves.

    If you were a liberal you would welcome debate from one and all and would condemn personal attacks rather than justify them

    You aren't a liberal.

    Parent

    Show me (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:32:58 PM EST
    Please be accurate. I did not claim you were "Anti-semites." I said two of your characteristics were that you did not support Israel and Jews.

    Can you show me any comment made by you that could be characterized as support for Israel and Jews?

    In the meantime, we know how you feel about facts and smearing. In your own words.

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.




    Parent
    Oh, I get it. (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 09:19:38 PM EST
    and a total lack of support for Israel, Jews and....

    Anti-semites?  How's that?

    OK spinmeister ppj, "a total lack of support for Jews."

    That is way different than anti-semitism, right. It's not being against Jews, it is being against Jews.

    Very clever..........not

    Parent

    Show me, squeaky (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:18:58 AM EST
    Show me, squeaky. Show me some support for Israels and Jews.

    You can't.

    Parent

    Suppport, not word games. (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:20:37 AM EST
    And no word games.

    Just show me some support.

    Quit trying to avoid the issue by acting like this is  a middle school debate.

    Just show me some support.

    Parent

    Liberia and Blacks? (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 10:20:06 AM EST
    You are more inchoherent than usual ppj.

    Show some support for Israel and Jews? Do you mean jews in Israel or jews in general? Does support for the Israeli left count?

    What kind of support do you want to see?

    Let's see ppj, How about the Rosenbergs? You seem to hate them, if I remember correctly. Guess you hate jews because they were jewish.

    Oh but then there is Lieberman, you love him...It gets a bit confusing here.

    And as far as Israelies how about Rachel Corrie or Gila Svirsky? Do you support them, ppj? How about Peace Now? For or against?

    Liberia and Blacks? Is that like Israel and Jews?

    Somehow I think you mean that if I do not support Right Wing Israeli's and their policies, or Right Wing jews and their positions I am anti-semitic.

    Is that your point or am I missing something?

    Parent

    Ah, now we come to the truth. (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 12:47:42 PM EST
    You don't support Israel. And since Israel is a state founded by Jews it follows that you also do not support Jews.

    You also never mention the drastic effects that Sharia law has on the rights of women and gays.

    Women and girls are  stoned to death for being raped, shot in the back of the head for being accused of adultery, hung for defending themselves during a rape...and of course. No education. Keep'm barefoot and pregnant that's the way the radical Moslems like'em!

    As for gays and lesbians. They're just killed.

    So why no mention???

    Why can't you condemn these actions while arguing against the war? Why do you ignore them?

    Tell us, squeaky. Why can't you speak out for these people who are unfortunate enough to live under Sharia law??

    Parent

    BTW (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 12:48:52 PM EST
    The Rosenburgs were convicted of being spies for the USSR.

    The result was they were executed.

    Parent

    PPJ and Truth aka Oil and Water (none / 0) (#55)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 12:59:34 PM EST
    You don't support Israel. And since Israel is a state founded by Jews it follows that you also do not support Jews.

    Another sillygism by ppj. Here is another:

    Since you hate the Rosenbergs who were jews, and  you hate the American Communist party which was founded by jews,  you hate jews.

    BTW- you haven't answered my question as to what defines support of Israel? Do you support Rachel Corrie or Gila Svirsky? How about Peace Now? For or against?

    I assume your silence means that you do not support them. So, by your own (ill) logic you are an anti-semite who hates Israel.

    Parent

    You define what non-support (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:16:05 PM EST
    of Israel and Jews means.

    BTW - How about telling us more about how great Saddam was and the wonderful culture of Iraq???

    Parent

    Hahhahahhaa (none / 0) (#61)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 08:34:11 PM EST
    What do you think, you are Rove?
    You define what non-support of Israel and Jews means.
    They are your own words to begin with.

    Typical ppj evasion.  asking me to define wtf you mean????

     

    Parent

    squeaky, your praise for Saddam's Iraq (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 10:29:52 PM EST
    and never a good word for Israel or the US defines you. You're just making it worse.

    Parent
    Does one really follow the other? (none / 0) (#56)
    by glanton on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 01:08:00 PM EST
    You don't support Israel. And since Israel is a state founded by Jews it follows that you also do not support Jews.

    Well, first of all Squeaky was pretty clear saying not support for the Israeli Right (I often wonder why it is you consistently refuse to engage people's posts on their own terms instead of caricaturing them, but that's another story).  But even discounting that huge hole in your response, do you really believe that one follows the other?  Really really?

    I think you and others who adhere to this argument are treading pretty dangerous rhetorical ground, myself.  Of course it's all so hard to get a handle on.  And as I'm sure you know, the founding of Israel was conducted by a variety of political factions and nations in the aftermath of two stupendous catastrophes, WWII and the Holocaust.  It's a complicated issue and at any rate, to say "Jews founded Israel" is an oversimplification.

    Myself, I fully support the existence of an Israeli State, and I fully support the American alliance with that State.  For all their problems they are a viable republican government that, compared to pretty much every other country in the region, stands for human rights.  
    And then they have addressed and corrected certain brutalities, and I commend them for that.  The "waiting zones" at Gaza for example were recognized to be a human rights cesspool and they went a long ways towards correcting it, from what I can tell.

    This doesn't mean however that I am on board with everything they do, militarily or politically.  Like Squeaky and most of the people you accuse of Anti-Semitism on this board, I am just as fervently opposed to the Right Wing elements of that country, elements who think the military is option one instead of a last resort, as I am to the same elements in this one.

    Those of you who so cavalierly throw around the "Anti-Semite" card aren't contributing anything useful, that's for sure.

     

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:23:28 PM EST
    Yes, and every racist or bigoted gay hater always said:

    "I have a lot of black, or gay.... friends."

    The above is not meant for you, but to point out that is squeaky's defense.

    Squeaky's consistent lack of anything positive, his vitriol against the war and anyone he (she??) deems a supporter of the war in Iraq,  which really is just an extension of the war that has been going for years and his (her??) latest fulsome praise of Saddam's Iraq pretty well defines the issue.

    Parent

    BTW (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:25:44 PM EST
    Before squeaky gets lathered up and declare that I have called him (her??) a racist/bigot, I note that I do not. Just that is the same defense.

    Parent
    Sigh (none / 0) (#66)
    by glanton on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 10:31:59 PM EST
    Jim, what is it with you and ignoring what people write even as you respond to them?  Is it any wonder that the debates involving you, on this blog, almost always devolve into utter absurdity?  

    You don't support Israel. And since Israel is a state founded by Jews it follows that you also do not support Jews.

    Please, recognize the ridiculousness of the above statement.  Whatever personal thing is going on between you and Squeaky doesn't make this any more reasonable of a leap.  Because that's what it is, an irrational leap, and what's more, one of many logical fallacies that very much hurt the national conversation about Middle East Politics.

    And of course the analogy about "some of my best friends are blacks" is just despicable.  Show me an anti-Semitic or a racist position taken by Squeaky and I'll take that back.  But as it stands I've seen nothing like that in Squeaky's worldview.

    At any rate, you and many others in America would do well to remember that Israel is first and foremost a political entity, like any other nation.  Domestic and foreign policies of any and all nations is and should be always open to disagreement and very harsh criticism by one and all.  

    In a decent world there can be no sheild along the order of, "accept what Israel is and what it does or you're a Jew Hater."  

    Parent

    Glanton (1.00 / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 06:56:54 AM EST
    The debate is on going and doesn't really involve you. If you come into the middle of a movie, don't expect to understand it.

    I have asked Squeaky to show some support for Israel and Jews. The context is the WOT and the current battle in Iraq. That should be fairly easy for him to do, he has many comments to choose from.

    He has not. Instead he has dodged, and now brings out the old "I have many......." defense.

    He has also been vocal about how nice Iraq was under Saddam, its culture, etc.

    The facts are that Squeaky doesn't support Israel in the war, just as he doesn't support the US. Becuase of this he can't find it within himself to say anything bad about the enemy without qualifiying it.

    The enemy is really just insurgents, etc.

    Israel is always wrong, Hezabollah is just nice people, Iran hasn't called for Israel's destruction, etc., etc.

    The facts are becoming plainer. For many of the Left, their hatred of Bush, Cheney, et al, has led them into a a situation where they can't, or won't, criticize actions of the terrorists that anyone should be able to condemn.

    BTW - I also asked him to condemn the terrorists actions against women, gays and lesbians, which he won't do.

    Parent

    ppj's in fantasyland (none / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 09:19:44 AM EST
    Brewster Jennings (4.00 / 1) (#12)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 05:45:55 PM EST
    Skepticism? Where were you when we attacked Iraq? Most of us here were more than skeptical about the WH claims regarding WMD's.

    As far as blowing up the Iranian oil fields, I believe that has been the plan all along.

    Keeping Iraqi oil off the market has been a priority for many, many years now. Iran is next.

    Parent

    read again (none / 0) (#84)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 08:15:26 PM EST
    He then quoted from a NY Times article about IEDs that originate in Iran and are used against our troops in Iraq.
    no, the article didn't say that IEDs originated in iran. It said the gov't claimed they did and couldn't provide proof.

    The latest on iran's supply of EFPs says

    Officers said they did not know where the copper plates were manufactured, or by whom. They also said they could not prove who supplied the materials or who was building the EFPs.
    Some of us here may be too young to appreciate how similar the current claims (and constant escalation of such claims) are the same as used to goad the US into a war with iraq.

    A war founded on the 'mushroom cloud', a war founded on iraq being an 'imminent threat' to the US, a war founded on 'we know where the WMDs are in iraq.' all of which proved to be lies.

    A threat that, at the time, bush claimed was a 'unique' threat and implied their connection to 9/11/2001.

    And yet those are the same lies that bush is using to goad the US into a war with iran.  e.g. 13 days ago: President Bush said Wednesday he's convinced that the Iranian government is supplying deadly weapons to fighters in Iraq

    But yet his intel experts and generals say : There is no proof

    And an increasingly smaller amount of folks will fall for it again.

    Of course maybe this time the boy who cried wolf will be eaten along with the sheep who followed him. But more likely, you will just continue to send other folks kids to die in your name for more lies.

    BTW, why aren't you carrying a gun in a war that you believe in?

    Parent

    Haven't we seen this movie before? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Sailor on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 03:24:32 PM EST
    U.N. calls U.S. data on Iran's nuclear aims unreliable
    Tips about supposed secret weapons sites and documents with missile designs haven't panned out, diplomats say.
    [...]
    "Since 2002, pretty much all the intelligence that's come to us has proved to be wrong," a senior diplomat at the IAEA said.
    Just like Iraq's WMDs, aluminum tubes, mobile bio-weapons labs ... bush is lying again.

    And if bush gives the order to attack iran? Prepare for a General revolt.

    A Gump Decade (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:42:07 PM EST
    But none of the tips about supposed secret weapons sites provided clear evidence that the Islamic Republic was developing illicit weapons.

    Well duh. They admit to increasing the number of centrifuges to over 3000 and tell the UN to pis* off...

    But the UN doesn't believe....

    They are having a Forest Gump Decade...

    "Stupid is as stupid does."

    Parent

    iraq 2.0 (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 12:10:38 PM EST
    "Since 2002, pretty much all the intelligence that's come to us has proved to be wrong,"

    bush is lying to start yet another war and the a small shrill minority of warmongers will fall for it again.

    Parent

    The Iran Contradiction Affair (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 04:34:23 PM EST
    ...what's worse, sounding like you know what you're talking about or sounding like you're pulling the same shell game with Iran that you pulled with Iraq?

    Mr. Bush also said "The idea that somehow we're manufacturing the idea that the Iranians are providing IEDs [improvised explosive devices] is preposterous."

    Yet that idea is no more preposterous than anything else we've seen the Bush administration manufacture.

    Mr. Bush said he still refuses to have direct talks with Iran because "I believe that's a more effective way of convincing the Iranians to give up their nuclear weapons ambitions."

    Iran has consistently avowed that it has no interest in developing nuclear weapons. The Bush administration has offered no proof that the Iranians are lying on that score. Iran also vehemently denies that it is providing weapons to militants in Iraq.

    The really preposterous aspects of this situation are that we have less reason to believe Bush than we have to believe the Iranians, and that Mr. Bush would assert that the best way to pursuade someone to do something is to not talk to them.

    --Jeff Huber, U.S. Navy (Retired), Pen and Sword



    Careful parsing (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Sailor on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 04:41:03 PM EST
    "The idea that somehow we're manufacturing the idea that the Iranians are providing IEDs [improvised explosive devices] is preposterous."
    He didn't deny it. He himself never uttered the words 'imminent danger.'

    That how they do it. They imply with certitude and then deny they ever made the claims or their responsibility for war without end.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 05:07:21 PM EST
    Everything with these guys is implication and innuendo. Because they are playing only to their base - who they know will lap it up and repeat it endlessly.

    Their apparent inability to conduct international diplomacy beyond the level of elementary school playground bully tactics, their ruining of Americas reputation worldwide, their seeming incompetence in achieving any rational foreign policy objectives, their driving away all allies, and their utterly bungled war in the Middle East, are only a few of things that seem to support a conclusion that they are out of their league and just plain stupid.

    I think this is an extremely dangerous evaluation, and I think it is the one they want people to make.

    I think this is wrong. I think this is as far from reality as we can get, and I believe that the opposite is true.

    Lately there has been much talk of the possibility of another "Gulf of Tonkin" style setup. And much speculation, even by people as knowledgeable and experienced in these matters as Zbigniew Brzezinski last week talking of "a terrorist act or some provocation blamed on Iran, and culminating in so-called defensive U.S. military action against Iran".

    I've said repeatedly that I believe the situation in Iraq is, and has been since the invasion, exactly what Cheney/Bush et al want it to be. I believe they have worked towards toward this moment for six years, if not longer.

    more...



    Parent
    Theory wrong (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:03:24 PM EST
    If your theory was correct, then the original emphasis would have been on Iran, and Iran's support for Hezbollah, etc.

    Parent
    Edger quotes himself and links to his own blog (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:25:20 PM EST
    I again remind you that quoting yourself and then linking to yoru own blog as if some second source was in agreement with you is intellectually dishonest.

    At least have the decency to show the links name.

    Parent

    Sailor, what Bush said was: (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:22:45 PM EST
    From his 2005 SOTU:

    Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.

    The above is from his 2003 SOTU speech, and sets out his belief in a pre-emptive war very clearly. There is no "implying."

    You disagree with it, but that shouldn't prevent  you from quoting it accurately.

    Parent

    Your link is to a dubious source. (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:54:07 PM EST
    Your link takes us to a site that claims to be ran by a retired USN Cmdr who writes:

    And full moon is a good time to strike.

    That is so outrageous.

    A full month provides better visual acquistion of the target, which would help the Iranians attack our stealth technology.

    Bombing is now done via GPS smart bombs and no visual assistance is required.

    i.e. The dark of the moon is the best time to attack.

    Of course you and edger wouldn't know about that, and understandably so. But your source should.

    Your "source" appears dubious at best.

    So in the words of another "military man," Col. Potter of Mash..

    "Horse Hockey."

    Parent

    Re: Your link.... (none / 0) (#35)
    by Skyho on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 11:32:11 PM EST
    Jim,

    You really have not been in the military or, if so, you lived in a telephone booth.

    A full month (moon?) provides better visual acquistion of the target, which would help the Iranians attack our stealth technology.

    It would also help us to quit p**sing off the natives by killing innocents.  Relying on word of mouth and tribal leaders for targeting information is what killed us in Vietnam.

    Sure, our bombs can hit within 5 cm of a gps coordinate, but the actual targeting takes place well before, as an intel function.

    You've got three dimensions and time to consider for any target.  Certainly I can put a 500 pounder into your back pocket, if you stand still for six hours.  Easy.

    With a six hour lag in intel to explosion, however, the desired target is likely gone and all I get are innocent people.

    You are all mouth.  Come up with a better way to get better intel to target and STFU about stuff you know nothing about.

    Parent

    No, Skyho. (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:41:06 AM EST
    The comments were in reference to the inital attack.

    They would be against the various labs, manufacturing facilities and infrastructure. In other words, the targets are static.

    The weapons used are GPS guided and/or laser guided. They don't need a full moon.

    A stealth aircraft doesn't show on radar. It has some profile on infrared. It is vulnerable to visible sighting. Aircraft show up very well when they are above the climbing aircraft, profiled against a sky lighted by a full moon.

    Moving targets require infrared and other nightvision equipment. We have these. Again a full moon doesn't help an air attack.

    Cruise missiles fly low and fast to avoid, as best possible, radar detection. Like stealth aircraft the best defense against them is a visual sighting and "blanketing" anti-aircraft fire.

    Again. A full moon is not to our advantage. I find it amusing to read a comment by a Retired USN Commander say otherwise.

    Parent

    Once more (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:50:49 AM EST
    it is not surprising that he would ignore the substance of the comments from Jeff Huber that I quoted here, Sky-ho, in favor of taking something else out of context in his efforts to distract, divert, and hijack. He has no capability for cogent and intelligent response to the points Jeff made in my quote.

    Parent
    The fact is that your source revealed (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:59:39 AM EST
    a startling lack of knowledge about a subject he wants to write about.

    If he did not use his "USN ret Cmdr" I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. But if is going to use that as part of his resume, I have every right to point out when he is wrong from a military point.

    Parent

    Edger (none / 0) (#10)
    by bx58 on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 05:37:22 PM EST
    "Although they are directly responsible, having spent so many years creating the situation, how this if it happens could be laid at the feet of Cheney and Bush is beyond me".

    Could you please explain that to me?

    Which part (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 05:42:53 PM EST
    Their responsibility, how they created the situation, or how they can be held accountable?

    Parent
    If it happens(war with Iran) (none / 0) (#13)
    by bx58 on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 05:56:19 PM EST
    who's feet is the blame laid to? Not Cheney and Bush?

    Maybe "Haliburton" did it...

    CinC & VP (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 05:59:49 PM EST
    Escalation of US Iran military planning part of... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:32:03 PM EST
    ...six-year Administration push

    The motivations for an Iran strike were laid out as far back as 1992. In classified defense planning guidance - written for then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney by then-Pentagon staffers I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, World Bank Chief Paul Wolfowitz, and ambassador-nominee to the United Nations Zalmay Khalilzad - Cheney's aides called for the United States to assume the position of lone superpower and act preemptively to prevent the emergence of even regional competitors. The draft document was leaked to the New York Times and the Washington Post and caused an uproar among Democrats and many in George H. W. Bush's Administration.

    In September 2000, the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) issued a report titled "Rebuilding America's Defenses," which espoused similar positions to the 1992 draft and became the basis for the Bush-Cheney Administration's foreign policy. Libby and Wolfowitz were among the participants in this new report; Cheney, former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other prominent figures in the Bush administration were PNAC members.

    Full timeline of the decades-long buildup to Iran

    gabriel (none / 0) (#23)
    by cpinva on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 06:33:16 PM EST
    my skepticism stems from the complete lack of: a. identified sources of information., and b. complete lack of impartial verification of the actual source of IED materials, claimed to be iranian sourced.

    all is "unidentified sources", and "might be from iran", "with or without the iranian govt's knowledge".

    in other words, they have nothing of substance, so they just throw a bunch of stuff out, and see if anyone bites. this worked in 2002/2003, because the bulk of the country supported bush, even though his "facts" were mighty implausible.

    now, having been exposed as both a consumate liar and incompetent, his support is reduced to the true believers.

    the rest of us, rightly so, are skeptics.

    Joe Wilson calls it early... (none / 0) (#32)
    by A Passionate Attachment on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 07:42:26 PM EST
    Joe Wilson - June 14, 2003

    "The real agenda in all of this of course, was to redraw the political map of the Middle East. Now that is code, whether you like it or not, but it is code for putting into place the strategy memorandum that was done by Richard Perle and his study group in the mid-90's which was called, "A Clean Break - A New Strategy for the Realm." And what it is, cut to the quick, is if you take out some of these countries, some of these governments that are antagonistic to Israel then you provide the Israeli government with greater wherewithal to impose its terms and conditions upon the Palestinian people, whatever those terms and conditions might be. In other words, the road to peace in the Middle East goes through Baghdad and Damascus. Maybe Tehran. And maybe Cairo and maybe Tripoli if these guys actually have their way. Rather than going through Jerusalem."

    19:46: http://next.epic-usa.org/epicdev2/_media/2003forumaudio/28-lecture-wilson-32.mp3

    "On the other ones, the geopolitical situation, I think there are a number of issues at play; there's a number of competing agendas. One is the remaking of the map of the Middle East for Israeli security, and my fear is that when it becomes increasingly apparent that this was all done to make Sharon's life easier and that American soldiers are dying in order to enable Sharon to impose his terms upon the Palestinians that people will wonder why it is American boys and girls are dying for Israel and that will undercut a strategic relationship and a moral obligation that we've had towards Israel for 55 years. I think it's a terribly flawed strategy."

    13:33: http://next.epic-usa.org/epicdev2/_media/2003forumaudio/29-lecture-qa-32.mp3


    Do you know?? (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:49:54 AM EST
    I wonder if Wilson's comments were made before or after he admitted to mis speaking himself to the WP reporter, as well as his NYT article to the Senate Intelligence Committee.  

    Parent
    Project for a New American Century (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 09:28:50 PM EST
    PNAC:

    "Pre-emptive war was invented by Adolf Hitler. To be perfectly
    honest, I wouldn't take anyone who came up with such a thing
    seriously".
    --Dwight David Eisenhower in 1953

    Congressman Abraham Lincoln on President James K. Polk and his Mexican War:
    "Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so, whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such a purpose -- and you allow him to make war at pleasure.

    Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after you have given him so much.

    If, today, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him?

    You may say to him, 'I see no probability of the British invading us' but he will say to you, 'Be silent; I see it, if you don't.'"


    (Lincoln: Speeches and Writings 1832-1858, The Library of America)
    ----------

    PNAC.info: An examination of the neoconservative foreign policy approach and its consequences for America and the world.

    Edger, wonderful writing and advice, (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 10:18:33 AM EST
    for the 19th century....

    Wonderful writings and great advice.... for when the enemy is not a radical splinter group which has declared jihad on you, and one of it's declared leaders declared that you cannot withdraw and expect peace:

    So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.

    BTW - We now have things like, airplanes, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, bacteria weapons..

    None of which Lincoln had to worry about...

    Parent

    Hey SQUEAKY!!!!!! (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 07:51:22 AM EST
    Here we have another example of the Left and Israel.

    In other words, the road to peace in the Middle East goes through Baghdad and Damascus. Maybe Tehran. And maybe Cairo and maybe Tripoli if these guys actually have their way. Rather than going through Jerusalem."


    Your Point? (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 10:24:50 AM EST
    Why (none / 0) (#50)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 10:21:03 AM EST
    wasnt it offensive when he said it?

    Lessons Learned (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 01:43:03 PM EST

    Iran-Contra was the subject of an informal "lessons learned" discussion two years ago among veterans of the scandal. Abrams led the discussion. One conclusion was that even though the program was eventually exposed, it had been possible to execute it without telling Congress. As to what the experience taught them, in terms of future covert operations, the participants found: "One, you can't trust our friends. Two, the C.I.A. has got to be totally out of it. Three, you can't trust the uniformed military, and four, it's got to be run out of the Vice-President's office"--a reference to Cheney's role, the former senior intelligence official said.

    War & Piece

    road to war (none / 0) (#62)
    by diogenes on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 09:10:48 PM EST
    Iran's president just said that their nuclear program is a runaway train.  That wasn't Bush talking.  If many of you prefer to try diplomatic engagement with Iran in the hopes of avoiding a nuclear war later, then so be it.  But don't complain about "false intelligence".
    If Israel and Iran dropped ten nuclear bombs on each other's countries Israel would be largely uninhabitable and would lose a majority of its Jews; the rest would flee.  Iran might lose ten million people, but clearly a war of attrition of that sort favors them, and the world outlook of some radical islamicists would happily trade ten million Persians for five million Jews and wiping out the Jewish state.  They could avoid bombing Jerusalem but wipe out Tel Aviv, Haifa, and much of the coast while leaving the holy sites in Jerusalem reachable.

    You knew smoking too much of that stuff (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 09:30:09 PM EST
    would give you terminal heebie-jeebies, dioge. Are they living under the carpet and behind the pictures on the walls too? TV talking to you yet? Anybody in the mirror besides you?

    What gives you the idea the Iranians are that far gone? What - you think they're red staters or something?

    Parent

    edger (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 10:31:36 PM EST
    And if tells me that it is nice to attack during a full moon I'll tell him I don't believe it.

    I stand by my comment. (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 10:57:04 PM EST
    Here is what was written:

     

    Jeff, further perhaps to your post, my thinking is that the Neocon Masters will direct the current president to order airstrikes on Iran on the new moon nights of either 12 August or (propitiously) 11 September. Why? Because the media will be all wrapped up in the tenth anniversary of the Death of Princess Diana and will pay scant attention to the opening of a third front.
    My two cynical cents.
    Mike
    # posted by Mike : 1:10 PM

    And full moon is a good time to strike.
    # posted by Jeff Huber : 1:12 PM

    Now, this link will show you that a "new moon" is no moon, sometimes referred to the dark of the moon.

    i.e. No light in the sky. Bad for seeing. Great for stealth.

    "Stand by Your Comment" (none / 0) (#68)
    by glanton on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 11:09:26 PM EST
    A derivative of the Great Tammy Wynette.  But then you also continue to stand by this:

    You don't support Israel. And since Israel is a state founded by Jews it follows that you also do not support Jews.

    So how seriously we're to take your fidelity remains a pretty open question.

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 06:58:31 AM EST
    I just posted a long comment regarding my quest for Squeaky to show some, etc., as an answer to the same question.

    If you are interstd, read it.

    Parent

    ppj's logic (none / 0) (#81)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 09:49:13 AM EST
    You don't support Israel. And since Israel is a state founded by Jews it follows that you also do not support Jews.

    Since ppj doesn'y support the Israeli peace movement, founded by Jews, it follows that he doesn't support Jews.

    Yes ppj, by your logic you are an anti-semite and anti-Israel.

    Parent

    What's weird is (none / 0) (#82)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 03:57:53 PM EST
    He doesn't need to stand by that ludicrous assertion in order to attack you or anybody else.  He has proven this multiple times.

    It is painful to realize that debate over Israel has to reckon with that formulation, the comment I have asked Jim multiple times to retract for the sake of sanity and decent debate.  There are many terrible things about that quotation, one of which is the phrase "support Jews" as though Jewish people were a hegemonic block in full support of that nation's policies, whatever they be.  This is itself an inexcusable slander on Jewish people.  

    Anyway, all we can do is to ignore the formulation, just as we ignore the slander that opposing an American President's agenda is the same as opposing the nation.  

    And thankfully, people in America (for all their willingness to vote for a Republican despite all good evidence to the contrary) clearly are bellyaching from the Apple Pie rhetoric that inundated them, and did such wonders for the GOP, in 2002 and 2004.  In our current moment, if all you have to offer is the likes of:

    You don't support Israel. And since Israel is a state founded by Jews it follows that you also do not support Jews

    then really you're not even in the game.

    Parent

    Thanks Glanton (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 05:33:57 PM EST
    I don't know how ppj can continue to make such a nonsensical argument in good faith. Your point is clear as day, not that it will make a difference to ppj. He is on a mission, and good faith does not seem part of it.

    Parent
    Once more (again) (none / 0) (#75)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 07:09:55 AM EST
    Not that it will do any good - since he is not even attempting honest discussion. The above exchange (follow it to it's top) is a perfect example of Jim's pointless and childish self stroking trolling to divert a thread from it's topic to some minor detail and to talking about him.

    It is not surprising that he would ignore the substance of the comments from Jeff Huber that I quoted here [...] in favor of taking something else out of context in his efforts to distract, divert, and hijack. He has no capability for cogent and intelligent response to the points Jeff made in my quote.

    I wonder what drives him to abase himeself in public like this? But I'm also beyond caring.

    Parent

    Well, I hope you have (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 07:31:20 AM EST
    learned the difference between a full moon and a new moon. That might be helpful if you ever plan any night time activity.

    Parent
    OFF TOPIC (none / 0) (#79)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 09:24:13 AM EST
    His incomprehension is stunning (none / 0) (#80)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 09:33:05 AM EST
    Iranians may well be that far gone (none / 0) (#69)
    by diogenes on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 11:35:58 PM EST
    Isn't the mentality of a suicide bomber who is sure of the seventy-two virgins the same as one of a leader who would trade ten million of his own people for wiping out Israel?

    You need new batterries for your lamp (none / 0) (#70)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 02:22:47 AM EST
    again.

    Parent
    No mention was made ... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 02:47:59 AM EST
    ... by iran regarding nuke weapons.

    And for the las t time the 72 virgins thing is a myth.

    Parent

    It's (none / 0) (#72)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 06:34:09 AM EST
    ONE 72 year old virgin.

    Parent
    the tetosterone on this comment thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 09:20:14 PM EST
    is getting annoying. Please stop insulting each other.  Or do it somewhere else.