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Sunday Reading

  • Michael Isikoff on Rove crony and lobbyist Richard Hohlt acknowledging (confirmed by Rove's lawyer) that Hohlt faxed a copy of Novak's article to Rove on July 11. Christy at Firedoglake adds her thoughts. I'd just add that those of us in the media room during Novak's testimony found Hohlt's name on the trial witness list (We were trying to figure out how to spell Hohlt.) So at one point, Wells must have been thinking about calling him, but changed his mind.
  • Another released Iraqi detainee from Camp Bucca describes his torture at the American detention center. They used an electric prod on him. Another former prisoner says it happened to him too.
  • Larry Johnson debunks Victoria Toensing's WaPo op-ed. (Dead link removed 4/28/21

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  • Display: Sort:
    What does Ms. Toensing's law firm do? (none / 0) (#1)
    by clio on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 07:06:40 PM EST
    This is a serious question.  

    Having read Ms. Toensing's Washington Post Op-Ed makes me wonder if anyone would employ a lawyer who seemingly has so little grasp of courtroom tactics and so little respect for the courts.  It is not the facts she cites. I am remaining neutral on those. It is the tone.

    Does her firm sell access?   That I could understand, but I can't imagine anyone with a major legal problem employing such an indiscreet, frivolous advocate to appear in court. One would be constantly afraid of what she might say - in court and out.

    IANAL, so perhaps I am wrong about this.

    Toensing is a right wing tool (none / 0) (#3)
    by MiddleOfTheRoad on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 08:38:06 PM EST
    Toensing is short on facts and high on rhetoric.

    She even goes on to criticize Ashcroft, and for a moment I thought that she would be calling for Bush to be impeached (since Bush too let the trial proceed).

    Toensing ignores evidence that Plame was covert.  Isikoff & Corn highlight in the book "Plame" the covert work Plame did for the CIA in Jordan in 2002.

    Toensing should know that the investigation was about leaking to reporters (and not just to Novak).  The fact that Armitage leaked Plame's CIA affiliation to Novak does not mean that the investigation should be closed.  Incidentally a few days after his column appeared, and before there was calls for this investigation, Novak said that two administration officials came to him and gave him the name.

    When Fitzgerald was assigned to the case, the FBI suspected Libby of lying and covering up.  And yet Toensing says that Fitzgerald should have closed the investigation on the first day!

    And finally, in her smear piece, Toensing says that Fitzgerald made a factual assertion that turned out wrong.  Fitzgerald said then that "Libby was the first govt official known to have disclosed Plame's CIA affiliation".  That was true at that time.

    Toensing charges the CIA with a conspiracy.  I guess the CIA knew that based on their referral, Libby would commit perjury several months down the line!

    The charges made by Toensing against Wilson are the old talking points which have been repeatedly recycled.  We know that Wilson was sent to answer the VP's questions.  Evidence introduced in the Libby trial also supports this.  Wilson had already gone to Niger earlier on a CIA mission, and Wilson had the necessary qualifications (and the ironies of all in this adminstration where Elizabeth Cheney is appointed a deputy secretary in the State Dept without any mid east experience).

    If Toensing wants to prosecute the other administration officials who leaked, and the media which was complicit with the Bush administration, I'd say please go for it.

    And finally one question for Ms Toensing - if she is the ultimate authority on the IIPA statute and knows that Plame was not covert on the basis of not being stationed (a word which is not mentioned in the IIPA statute that she claims she helped write) abroad for five years - Why did she not state in Oct 2003 that the IIPA statute could not have been violated?  The Washington Post would have bent backwards to publish her story then - as they are doing now.  

    Why did she not tell Libby in advance of his FBI testimony that the IIPA statute was not violated, and that he should tell the investigators that the IIPA statute was not violated, and that his testimony was not relevant.

    I think we should charge Ms Toensing too.

    Parent

    clarification (none / 0) (#4)
    by MiddleOfTheRoad on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 08:44:26 PM EST
    On the part related to Novak - A few days after Novaks's column appeared, he gave an interview.  He said then that the two administration officials cited in his column had come to him and had given him the name.

    Armitage did not come to Novak, Novak went to Armitage.  And Armitage denies giving Novak the name (and in the Armitage-Woodward tape, Armitage does not give out the name).

    Parent

    What was it?? (none / 0) (#2)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 08:06:43 PM EST
    From the post:

    They used an electric prod on him. Another former prisoner says it happened to him too.

    Hmmm, that of course sounds like an "electric cattle prod."

    From the link:

    describing the device as black plastic with a yellow tip and two iron prongs. He said the prods were commonly used on him and other detainees as punishment.

    That sounds like a stun gun.

    Either way it probably shouldn't have happened. Now the question  becomes, what do you use to control prisoners short of threat, and use of when challenged, lethal force.

    Cattle prods (none / 0) (#5)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 11:52:00 PM EST
    what do you use to control prisoners short of threat, and use of when challenged, lethal force.

    Whatever they use in all the jails and prisons where cattle-prods are not used.  Which, legally speaking, means virtually every incarceration faciliy in the United States.

    And I didn't see where these were used to "control" prisoners.  It seems they were used for torture.

    Parent

    RePack (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 19, 2007 at 07:14:07 PM EST
    Mr. Ani said the electric prods were first used on him on the way to Camp Bucca. "I was talking to someone next to me and they used it," he said, describing the device as black plastic with a yellow tip and two iron prongs. He said the prods were commonly used on him and other detainees as punishment.

    Now he describes it as "punishment," not torture.
    Evidently punishment for breaking the "No Talking" rule.

    I made the point that it was a stun gun because calling it a "prod" does exactly that. Make the claim that it was a cattle prod, with all of the negative images that brings forth.

    I'm basically against its use, but I'll go back and ask the question. What would you use to keep control? Threats only work if the prisoner believes them. So how do you control them?

    Now you may claim that all of these prisoners are innocent. I think that is highly speculative and not reasonable. And I have no doubt the guilty ones cause problems.

    So how do you control them?

    I don't know if you have ever tried to get a man under control, but it isn't easy. Even if the guard is trained, and even if the guard has a significant size advantage, it isn't easy.

    And then there is the matter of spitting, biting and scratching, and the throwing of feces. All of these actions bring up the possibility of AIDS, Hepatis, TB, etc.

    What do you do to convince the prisoners that such actions will not be tolerated?

    So I ask again. How do you control them?

    Parent