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NY Times Blasts Repubublican Candidates Over Immigration


A New York Times editorial today sharply criticizes the Republican candidates for President over immigration. It also calls on the Demoratic candidates to speak out more forcefully for sane and workable immigration reform.

The problem is that the country cannot build a fence or send troops and expect its problems to go away. Huge numbers of illegal immigrants never go anywhere near the border: about 40 percent enter legally and overstay their visas. Nor can the government purge workplaces of illegal workers without doing vast damage to the economy. At some point it must address the 12 million undocumented, who cannot be deported en masse.

The Times frames the questions both sides need to answer: [More....]

What should be the role of immigrant labor in our economy? How does the country maximize its benefits and lessen its ill effects? Once the border is fortified, what happens to the 12 million illegal immigrants already here? Should they be expelled or allowed to assimilate? How? What about the companies that hire them?

And what about the future flow of workers? Should the current system of legal immigration, with its chronic backlogs and morbid inefficiencies, be tweaked or trashed? What is the proper role of state and local governments in enforcing immigration laws? And will a national identity card for immigrants bring on Big Brother for everyone?

Instead of providing solutions, the Republican candidates have tripped over themselves and flip-flopped:

Instead of answering these questions, the Republican candidates have spent their time blasting one another as coddlers of illegal immigrants and supporters of “amnesty.” This has proved tricky, however, for the candidates who in previous lives had to deal with immigration in the real world, where immigrant energy and low-end labor — both legal and illegal — tend to bolster economies and make life easier for everyone.

There's Romney:

Only two years ago, while governor of Massachusetts, Mitt Romney spoke favorably of a Senate bill that offered illegal immigrants a path to citizenship. Now he says he hates amnesty, condemns Rudolph Giuliani for having been mayor of a “sanctuary city” and has accepted endorsements from hard-liners like Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Ariz., who hounds immigrant day laborers as aggressively as he chases headlines.

There's Giuliani:

Mr. Giuliani once welcomed undocumented immigrants and sued the federal government to preserve an executive order that shielded them from deportation. Now he links immigration and terrorism in the same breath, and talks of cracking the whip through databases and enforcement schemes with names like BorderStat.

There's Huckabee:

For a while it looked as if Mike Huckabee would be a sensibly contrarian Republican. As governor of Arkansas he supported financial aid for illegal-immigrant students, and when Mr. Romney rebuked him for it in a debate, he scolded right back, “Our country is better than that, to punish children for what their parents did.” Then this month he did a stunning backflip, unveiling his “Secure America Plan,” which would require the expulsion of all illegal immigrants within 120 days.

Only John McCain gets praise from the Times:

He speaks of immigrants as “G-d’s children” and stoutly defends the path to citizenship for the undocumented. Given what he has gone through, his stance is close to heroic.

The Times acknowledges that last year's immigration reform bill had flaws, but maintains it had "the seeds of true reform."

The truth is this: Americans cannot expect immigrants to serve them — to make their beds and meals, feed their babies and ailing parents, and pick their crops — while living in fear and hopelessness.

I don't think the "seeds of true reform" is enough. I'd rather see no bill than a bad bill and had last year's bill passed, its flawed policies would be in place for years.

Once residing in this country, our immigrant workers are entitled to recognition and the right to living wages, safe working conditions and other worker protections.

As the National Network for Immigrant and Refugee Rights organization (NNIRR) says, they should have “the same rights as any other member of the U.S.: the right to travel, work, live, study and worship freely and safely, and to reunite their families without discrimination and violence.”

We do need immigration reform. But what we need is a non-punitive immigration reform bill, one that is humane and provides equality, dignity and a clear path to citizenship. Here are some essential ingredients, according to NNIRR:

  • Provide the opportunity for undocumented immigrants to legalize their status
  • Eliminate criminal sanctions for immigration violations
  • Expand avenues for legal immigration and support family reunification
  • Provide access and options for permanent residency and citizenship
  • Strengthen labor protections and their enforcement for all workers, both native and foreign born
  • End border and immigration enforcement abuses.

The Immigrant Solidarity Network provides these ten points of unity:

1) No to anti-immigrant legislation, and the criminalization of the immigrant communities.
2) No to militarization of the border.
3) No to the immigrant detention and deportation.
4) No to the guest worker program.
5) No to employer sanction and "no match" letters.
6) Yes to a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants.
7) Yes to speedy family reunification.
8) Yes to civil rights and humane immigration law.
9) Yes to labor rights and living wages for all workers.
10) Yes to the education and LGBT immigrant legislation.

Democrats should say no to a border fence and mandatory ID cards. The undocumented should not have to leave their families and return to their home countries while awaiting re-entry at the back of the line, which will take years. Drivers' licenses should be available to the undocumented as well as the ability to open bank accounts. They must be encouraged to come out of the shadows and live without fear. Our immigration policy must respect basic human rights. As NNIRR says(pdf)

We call for a national immigration policy in the U.S. built upon the principles of human security with dignity, justice, and equality, and that uphold the civil and human rights of all people, regardless of their race, color, class, religion, ethnicity, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, immigration or citizenship status.

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  • Display: Sort:
    It's difficult (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 01:06:23 PM EST
    to get sensible immigration reform passed when there's so much hostility towards undocumented workers. I recently drove across country and listening to talk radio's constant stream of invective and paranoia concerning undocumented laborers you'd think Tulsa was being overrun by Mexican panzer divisions.

    Undocumented workers no more steal jobs than they steal oxygen, a fact that continually eludes some of the most acute social liberals on this site. Undocumented workers contribute to the American economy hugely, while their remittances to their families help to grow Latin American economies. All it takes to make this a win/win solution is a little political resolve; all it would take to make undocumented workers legal is the proper documents. This isn't the sort of existential threat to America immigrant haters would have folk believe it is, but ever since the cold war faded, they've needed something to latch on to. Maybe Putin and Bush will get a new cold war going and the fearmongers will have something else to prattle about.

    Please answer this one simple question. (1.00 / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 01:36:04 PM EST
    How can the illegal alien possibly contribute to the economy when the jobs they take are not created by them and would be taken by legal workers if the illegals weren't here?

    Labor is a commodity. Commodities are always priced based on the quantity available.

    They add nothing that is not already here. Labor.
    Worse they depress the price of labor and remove the stress for decent working conditions just because they are here.

    [ Parent ]

    Your question isn't simple (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 01:58:30 PM EST
    it's simplistic.

    Imagine how people living in a country spend money on goods and services in that country from income earned there as a first step to answering your foolish query.

    But your colors are revealed with your continual assertions that immigrants add nothing to American culture or the economy. You might wish it so but rational folk see and say otherwise.

    In case you haven't noticed, there's been a war on unions and labor generally led by such social liberals as Reagan that has nothing to do with immigration. The standard of living has fallen for the vast formerly middle class, because the class warriors that lead the Republican party have altered the economic landscape to favor the super-rich over the working class. But go ahead and blame the poor, it's the socially liberal thing to do.

    Immigration reform that recognized transnationality, that enabled unionization in such job sectors as meat packing, restaurants, construction, and that was enforced could easily resolve the so-called crisis you seem to be so happy to flog.

    You didn't answer (1.00 / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 03:06:27 PM EST
    Imagine how people living in a country spend money on goods and services in that country from income earned there as a first step to answering your foolish query.

    Nice try and redefining the question, but we aren't talking about "people." We are talking about "illegal aliens. The question is how illegal aliens can contribute to the economy? Try reading the post.

    Nor can the government purge workplaces of illegal workers without doing vast damage to the economy.

    If they weren't here, the jobs would be taken by  legal workers. So they bring nothing additional.

    Since they add nothing to the economy that was not already here, all costs associated with them are net losses to the economy because without them you would not have the expenditures.

    And that doesn't include non-payment of FIT in many cases, and money sent out of the country and out of the economy.

    Pretty simple stuff. And you understand that, and you know that is correct, which is why you want to use the word "people" rather than the subject at hand.

    As for your inane blather re unions.... I again note that labor is a commodity. Mass influxes of illegal aliens drive the price down and hampers the ability of unions to organize.

    Your "transnational" whatever is merely an excuse for open borders.

    So quit whining about the evil Repubs and start supporting polices that will help the American working man and woman and quit trying to import Democrat voters.

    [ Parent ]

    "We aren't talking about people" (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 03:33:27 PM EST
    You may not think undocumented workers are people, but that's your hate problem, not mine.

    Everything else in your post is such beyond the pale garbage that it doesn't merit a response.

    [ Parent ]

    You don't answer the question. (1.00 / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 05:02:15 PM EST
    The question is not about "people."

    The question is about a subset of "people" called "illegal aliens."

    Now. Answer the question.

    And quit trying to avoid by yelling "hate" and other such BS.

    Frankly tnthorpe you can't answer it. My point is indisputable.

    [ Parent ]

    We're talking about people, Jim.... (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by dutchfox on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 04:40:45 PM EST
    I just wish you'd realise that. People! Families with children. Very easy for you to use the Repubican buzz words "illegal" and "alien" in one breath, which just demonises and dehumanises.

    [ Parent ]
    You have to remember (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Nowonmai on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 05:35:35 PM EST
    Jim here is the same person, who in another thread, claimed calling people 'illegals' didn't dehumanise them. He adamantly argued that it didn't.

    Now he is claiming they aren't people, and then said they are 'subset'. And then he says it's not hate. He can't even keep track of his own bs. Shill or Stirrer.

    As for him saying it's not hate: well, you have to have emotions and feelings to recognise it. Empathy, and we know where he stand on that.


    [ Parent ]

    Are you squeaky in disguise??? (1.00 / 3) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:18:04 PM EST
    Now he is claiming they aren't people

    You smear as bad as squeaky. But not as smart because you don't even wait until the thread is in the archives. I wrote:

    Actually the first issue isn't deporting 12 million people.

    Now, is there something in your PC shattered brain that thinks the above is a "nasty?"

    Now, tnthorpe decided that he couldn't answer my question, so he decides to try and redefine the question.

    Imagine how people living in a country spend money on goods and service...

    To which I responded:

    Nice try and redefining the question, but we aren't talking about "people." We are talking about "illegal aliens. The question is how illegal aliens can contribute to the economy? Try reading the post.

    You see, tnthorpe wants to change the whole context. The problem is, it is not "people" as a group, it is illegal aliens. In the context of the of people within the US  they are a subset of "people." If you don't like "subset," then call them a "group of people aka illegal aliens."

    And they don't add any new money to the economy. All they do is take jobs that otherwise would be taken by legal workers who would pay FIT, follow the rules re auto insurance and not crowd our emergency rooms.

    [ Parent ]

    dutchfox (1.00 / 1) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 05:18:10 PM EST
    And your point is what??

    "People" exist as a group. Tnthorpe claims that "people" spend money and contribute to the economy.

    But that isn't the question. Go back and read what the post said. Let me quote it for you.

    Nor can the government purge workplaces of illegal workers without doing vast damage to the economy.

    "Illegal workers" are "illegal aliens." The claim is that they make contributions to the economy.

    That, as I have demonstrated, is nonsense because the jobs they take would otherwise be taken by "legal workers." So the illegals add nothing.

    tnthorpe tried to reframe the question. I didn't let him so now all he can do is spew and stomp and  scream that I "hate."

    He also played the "union busting" card, which again is nonsense. It was the availability of cheap illegal labor that destroyed what once was good paying jobs in the meat packing industry.

    The problem you both face is that you can't cope with simple logic.

    Now. Want to help the illegals aliens?? Start raising hell with Washington for our government to start raising hell with Mexico/other governments to fix its problems. Force them to reform. Force them to put safety nets in place for their poor. Force them to support changes that will change their exports from people to goods.

    Quit being a shill for the Mexican/other government elite and the Demo politicians.

    Mow your own grass. Trim your own bushes. Paint your own house. Quit living the good life on the backs of illegal aliens and American workers made poorer because of them.

    Talk is cheap, people. Start walking the walk.

    If you're able.


    [ Parent ]

    PPJ spontaneously combusts (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 10:42:36 PM EST
    Your capacity to self-immolate is on display once again, and I didn't even need to hand you the zippo.

    As for your republican sycophancy syndrome, good luck with that.

    [ Parent ]

    You are the one who (1.00 / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 10:54:03 PM EST
    use the "hate" word. And you're the one who enjoys invoking unspeakable acts of violence with your "self-immolate" visions.

    I think that says who you are quite well.

    You're also the one who wants cheap labor and the good life on the backs of the illegal aliens and the US citizens made poor because they're here.

    What's a matter? Can't figure out how to start a lawn mower? Can't figure out which end of the hedge clippers you hold??? A paint brush won't fit your tender hand??

    You are in a loosing position with the VAST majority of the American voter and will likely lose any chance of seeing a Demo elected president.

    Enjoy feeling self righteous.

    [ Parent ]

    I just write (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:15:24 PM EST
    what I see, and face it PPJ, you're being called on peddling hate.

    Stop hating and I'll stop calling you on it.

    But then it's a typical conservative gambit to sell something--immigrant bashing, racism, class war--and then to complain when caught doing it. But that's your problem, deal with it.

    [ Parent ]

    Nope (1.00 / 1) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:23:48 PM EST
    Nope. You're the one who said watching Rove burning alive was no problem, and now you're the one who brings up burning again.

    You are the hater. You say so yourself.

    Now, you can't sell your "illegal aliens contribute to the economy" nonsense, and you can't sell your "illegal aliens would be good for unions" nonsense and you can't dispute that an excess of workers always lowers wages and working conditions, all you can do is smear.

    How typical of an "open borders" person.

    [ Parent ]

    You peddle nonsense (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:36:14 PM EST

    and surprise surprise, no one buys but you.

    Keep up the spontaneous combustion, but it's a shame you produce more smoke than light.

    [ Parent ]

    tnthorpe (1.00 / 1) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 09:16:53 AM EST
    I asked you a simple question. And that was to tell us how illegal aliens, who bring nothing into the country except their labor, and who take that labor and steal jobs from legal US workers, contribute anything to the economy.

    You have not answered. Instead you have tried to say that "people" contribute to the economy. Fine. Except we are not talking about "people" as a group. We are talking about "illegal aliens."

    And if the illegal aliens did not take the jobs they would be taken by legal workers, so the illegals have added NOTHING.

    In response you have yelled "hate," etc., with no proof at all. My responses have been measured and sympathetic towards the plight of the illegal aliens. In fact, I suggested we solve the problem by pushing Mexico and other governments to by fixing their economic and cultural problems, thus removing the driving force that makes their citizens travel thousands of miles, often at risk, to find work.

    You are not a problem solver, you are an enabler. One of the many who do not seem to care that Mexico and other governments are based on a system that does not provide for their poor, preferring to export them to the US so they can send money back to Mexico to keep its tottering system in place.

    For shame.

    [ Parent ]

    the shame is yours, PPJ (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by tnthorpe on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 09:46:22 AM EST
    keep your crocodile tears to yourself.

    Making ignorant blanket statements about a whole group of people you demonize is hate, whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

    Saying that undocumented workers are simply drains on the economy, that they contribute nothing is simply a bald-faced lie.

    You prattle about your logic, and I'm sure the crowd on Powerlies and Gates of Vienna crowd finds you a compassionate conservative, but I sure don't buy your hateful rhetoric.

    As for fixing NAFTA, etc. there's a great deal of work to do to undo the Republican assault on the middle class that's been enabled by a weak and foolish bunch of Democratic enablers.

    I'll reconsider your hateful pronouncements when I see you actually say something different than the typical Tancredo immigrant basher says. In the meantime, face up to your position like an adult and stop whining about others such as myself objecting to the hate you spew.

    [ Parent ]

    Demonize?? (1.00 / 1) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 08:59:51 AM EST
    Let me see, I describe them accurately and note accurately that they take legal US Citizens' jobs and contribute nothing ADDITIONAL to the economy while consuming services.

    That happens to be accurate. Are you claiming we should lie to support your favorite fantasy??

    You go ahead, I will stick to the truth.

    As for reconsidering, I doubt you have the capability to understand the simple concept that jobs aren't created for illegal aliens. Jobs exists because someone wants to buy goods and services. For an employer to deliver those things employees are needed. If the illegal aliens were not here the employer would have to hire legal US workers. The employer would mostly also have to pay better wages, provide better working conditions and benefits.

    But you don't dispute the point. Instead you blather on about "people." Again. We aren't talking about "people." We are talking about a group of people known collectively as illegal aliens. Individually they are known as an illegal alien.

    Just as we refer to "professional baseball players" and "professional baseball player."

    Come, tnthorpe. Prove my point regarding the economy wrong.

    Of course you won't because you can't.

    Tehehe  

    [ Parent ]

    Accurate? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 09:15:04 AM EST
    It's a brand spankin' new year staring you in the eye today, ppj.

    And you're going to start it off still fantasizing and hoping against all hope that somehow, someday, someway you'll get lucky and find someone stupid enough to think you make any sense here?

    Hahahahahaha! It's time for a deep and soul searching look at yourself, ppj. Don't bite your fingernails. And pay attention to the kid in the window offering services and contributing to the economy.

    Happy friggin' New Year!

    [ Parent ]

    edger (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 02:03:00 PM EST
    I see Santa didn't bring you anything in the smarts department...

    And pay attention to the kid in the window offering services and contributing to the economy.

    Uh... if the kid is an illegal alien he has taken a job from a legal US worker. He has not added anything to the economy that would not have been there if he had stayed in his country and not played The Grinch That Stole Legal US Workers Jobs in the continuing saga of "We Demand Open Borders." Sponsored by the "We Want Cheap Labor Repubs" and the "We Want Voters Demos."

    I think I will crown you "Your Nastiness." It fits what you write so well.

    First of all, (none / 0) (#67)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:18:25 PM EST

    Do we offer them respect? Absolutely not. We do our best to marginalize and get rid of them.

    Didn't work a year ago, won't work now. Facts and logic are facts and logic. Try some in this brand new year.

    [ Parent ]

    Your version of facts and logic, ppj? (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 02:44:42 PM EST
    Read the thread... heh!

    [ Parent ]
    hehe (1.00 / 1) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 04:24:04 PM EST
    I took the post and disputed two points.

    No one has proved me wrong.

    [ Parent ]

    No one has to "prove" idiocy wrong. (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:44:25 PM EST
    Idiocy is idiocy, ppj. Flooding a thread with "idiocy" won't make what you post any less "idiocy".

    How many people have you found here at TalkLeft (or anywhere else for that matter) who are stupid enough to think you make any sense?

    Name one... Link to one.

    You're not stupid enough to think that anyone else is stupid enough to think that the idiocy you post here makes any sense whatsoever.

    Are you?

    [ Parent ]

    there is nothing (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 02:49:35 PM EST
    accurate about your rant, just the same thoughtless bile post after post.

    As for what I dispute, pretty much everything you say on this subject is a stinking heap of garbage, from your inane assertion about economic non-contribution, to your ridiculous economic dicta, to your refusal to see undocumented workers for who and what they are--folk generally just trying to get by, provide for their families, and live a decent life.

    Doesn't make them all saints, but the vast majority have sinned in nothing other than wanting better for themselves and families. As the lead for this thread shows, there are clear steps that could resolve much of this so-called crisis if folk like you would stop spreading hate. You stand in the way of reform with your fearmongering, your fantasy of hermetically sealed borders,  your inability to be rational. But you're wed to your hateful positions, so deal with them like an adult and acknowledge them for what they are.

    Your positions are morally detestable, your intellection negligible, your repetition tedious.

    You are not nor will you ever be a serious interlocutor.

    [ Parent ]

    Facts are facts (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 04:36:58 PM EST
    Tell us tnthorpe, how can someone from outside the country who comes into the country and takes jobs from legal US workers contribute ANY ADDITIONAL dollars to the economy.

    The jobs they take exist whether they are here are not. If they take the jobs all they are doing is taking what is already here. If they are not here the jobs will be taken by legal US workers.

    So what net gain do they bring?

    None. Nada. Zip. Even you should be able to figure that out.

    You must create something that doesn't exist to grow the economy. In fact, by remitting money back to their families outside the US they are depressing the economy.

    And I love it when, after offering nothing but denials you write:

    folk generally just trying to get by, provide for their families, and live a decent life.

    So? That describes everyone I know. But that doesn't give them the right to break the laws.

    Let's face it. You just want open borders. You have no knowledge of how a surplus of a commodity, in this case labor, causes prices to fall.

    So again. Show me where I am wrong in my claim that the illegal aliens do not contribute any additional dollars to the economy.

    hehe

    [ Parent ]

    give it a rest (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 04:52:58 PM EST
    Your assertions are ludicrous.

    Accept you lost the argument and move on.

    [ Parent ]

    Admit that you can't prove (1.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:39:36 PM EST
    the point wrong and I will let it lie.

    Stomping your foot and making claims won't get the job done.

    [ Parent ]

    Define "prove". (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:45:09 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    typical PPJ baloney (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:49:40 PM EST
    assert nonsense and crow about how nobody disproves it.

    You must bore even yourself.

    [ Parent ]

    Facts be facts (1.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 11:18:43 PM EST
    It must be terrible to live in a world where you have to always deny the truth.

    [ Parent ]
    Projecting again. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:15:14 AM EST
    Again.

    How does it feel, ppj, to to live in a world where you have to always deny the truth?

    [ Parent ]

    Propaganda Minister PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:50:07 PM EST
    It is a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.

    [ Parent ]
    hehe Squeak (1.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 04:58:43 PM EST
    You too.... Refute the point, or otherwise we'll know you can't.

    Of course we already know that.

    And yes, I mean "we." Like in everyone.

    [ Parent ]

    As Usual (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 05:25:05 PM EST
    Your idiotic point has been shown to be BS over and over by many commenters here on several threads. No one is interested in playing your game, it gets boring real quick.

    [ Parent ]
    Facts be facts (1.00 / 1) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 04:57:05 PM EST
    edger.... And you can't refute, so you mumble and moan...

    hehehe

    [ Parent ]

    Off your meds again, huh? (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 01:47:39 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Immigrants Add $229 Billion (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:08:22 PM EST
    To the NYS economy:
    In upstate New York, five percent of the population is foreign-born, but immigrants play a disproportionately important role in some areas that are key to the region's economy, culture, and history. In universities, immigrants make up 20 percent of all professors, four times their share of the overall population. In health care, the fastest-growing sector in upstate New York, immigrants make up 35 percent of physicians and surgeons. In scientific fields, related to upstate's strength in research and development, immigrants make up 20 percent of computer software engineers and 13 percent of computer scientists and systems analysts. And in farming, important to rural communities and to the cultural heritage of the region, immigrants make up an estimated 80 percent of the seasonal workers who pick the crops. Perhaps surprisingly, the three most common countries of origin for upstate immigrants are Canada, India, and Germany. Mexico, the focus of so much public attention in the immigration debates, comes fourth.


    Although we throw around the word (none / 0) (#88)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:15:08 PM EST
    "immigrants," aren't we really talking about illegal immigrants?

    And not: legal immigrants who are professors, physicians, surgeons, computer software engineers, computer scientists and systems analysts?

    [ Parent ]

    No. (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:22:29 PM EST
    They are not criminals (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 17, 2007 at 08:21:17 PM PST
    Undocumented residents who entered without proper papers or overstayed their visas are in violation of immigration civil statutes, not the criminal laws.  


    [ Parent ]
    legal immigrants who are professors, physicians, surgeons, computer software engineers, computer scientists and systems analysts.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't twist my words. (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:39:53 PM EST
    Have more respect for yourself than that. You're not ppj...

    [ Parent ]
    If you are talking about (1.00 / 1) (#97)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:59:40 PM EST
    legal/documented immigrants in addition to illegal/undocumented immigrants, then you and I are talking about two very different things.

    Feel free to start/have your own conversation on your own topic if you wish. If you want to respond with relevance to me about my comments, accept the fact that I'm talking about undocumented immigrants only. You're not squeaky...

    [ Parent ]

    The term is "Undocumented residents" (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:11:34 PM EST
    You've used "illegal immigrants" until corrected. Then you tried to put words in my mouth. Now you try another twist with "undocumented immigrants".

    All being dishonest does is make you appear dishonest, sarc.

    And make you look like you are trying very hard to be ppj.

    [ Parent ]

    How disingenuous. (1.00 / 1) (#105)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 01:54:15 AM EST
    The issue I'm discussing, and the article I'm quoting from and linking to is entitled: "The Economic Logic of Illegal Immigration"

    If you wish to squabble obtusely about some unrelated issue regarding terminology, knock yourself out. However, it's not a squabble I have any interest in participating in.

    [ Parent ]

    You deny it? (none / 0) (#123)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 12:52:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    ReRead YOur Own (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:27:02 PM EST
    Link. It concludes that illegal immigrants are a net plus on the economy. The Udall report also found that illegal immigrants are a net plus.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, actually, my link says (none / 0) (#93)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:39:40 PM EST
    A back of the envelope calculation then suggests that in the short run immigration in the mid-1990s reduced the annual income of U.S. residents by about 0.1 percent of GDP.

    Given the uncertainties involved in making this calculation, one should not put great stock in the fact that the resulting estimate is negative. The prediction error around the estimate, though unknown, is likely to be large, in which case the -0.1 percent estimate would be statistically indistinguishable from zero.

    Using this sort of analysis, we cannot say with much conviction whether the aggregate impact of immigration on the U.S. economy is positive or negative.

    What available evidence does suggest is that the total impact is small.



    [ Parent ]
    Yes BUT (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:54:20 PM EST
    Professor Hanson, the author of the report you linked to, concludes that:

     

    stemming illegal immigration would likely lead to a net drain on the U.S. economy--a finding that calls into question many of the proposals to
    increase funding for border protection.


    [ Parent ]
    His "conclusion" (1.00 / 1) (#98)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:00:54 PM EST
    isn't supported by his own report. I wonder why not?

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:45:35 PM EST
    Because you have not read the report. Hanson uses the NRC study to show that the frenzy about closing the borders is absurd. According to your quote the issue is a non-issue as far as economic impact goes.

    Using this sort of analysis, we cannot say with much conviction whether the aggregate impact of immigration on the U.S. economy is positive or negative.

    What available evidence does suggest is that the total impact is small.

    More from Hanson regarding the NRC study:

     

    Given that the estimates in question require strong assumptions and in the end are only a fraction of a percent of
    U.S. GDP, one cannot say that they differ significantly from zero. For the U.S. economy, immigration appears to be more or less a wash.

    What Hanson concludes is that all the twisted undies from bedwetters calling for a wall along the Mexican border and surveillance drones will have a negative impact on the US economy. IOW you, ppj. and others who are making immigration, illegal and legal, a supersized issue are the real problem.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly. (1.00 / 0) (#104)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 01:34:37 AM EST
    According to your quote the issue is a non-issue as far as economic impact goes.
    Have I ever said the economic impact is anything but?

    After skimming 70+ comments on this thread from the blathering triumphant composed mostly of "Yes it is." "No it isn't." "Yes it is." "No it isn't." I google and find that this study, amid many qualifiers, says that the economic impact of illegal/undocumented/aliens/immigrants/workers/residents/whatever you think is the right term, is essentially nil.

    And I include that conclusion in ALL of the quotes I took from the article.

    But you are such a victim that anyone who's not your saviour is automatically your oppressor. Someone's either with you or they're with the terrorists, er, enemy.

    It's time for you to decide to grow up.

    [ Parent ]

    Sure Big Guy (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by squeaky on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 02:42:32 AM EST
    Whatever you say.

    The quote that you picked out was used by the author to show that those who argue that illegal immigration is bleeding our country dry and that the undocumented workers are stealing jobs from Americans is nonsense. Once he knocks that misconception down he goes on to show that undocumented workers are a vital asset for economic and social growth in the US.

    So why do you argue that illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be fixed. Sounds like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

    [ Parent ]

    We are discussing the economic impact of (none / 0) (#115)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 09:01:50 AM EST
    illegal immigration.

    As you well know, but seem unable to admit, I have never said anything on this topic except what I have written on this thread. Why do you continue to steadfastly claim otherwise? It sounds like you're being dishonest.

    The quote that you picked out was used by the author to show that those who argue that illegal immigration is bleeding our country dry and that the undocumented workers are stealing jobs from Americans is nonsense.
    100% wrong. He completely says that illegal immigration takes jobs from Americans.
    These benefits, however, are not shared equally. Labor inflows from abroad
    redistribute income away from workers who compete with immigrants in the labor
    market. George Borjas estimates that over the period 1980 to 2000 immigration
    contributed to a decrease in average U.S. wages of 3 percent.34 This estimate accounts for
    the total change in the U.S. labor force due to immigration, including both legal and
    illegal sources. Since immigration is concentrated among the low-skilled, low-skilled
    natives are the workers most likely to be hurt. Over the 1980 to 2000 period, wages of
    native workers without a high school degree fell by 9 percent as a result of immigration.
    Your claim that he siad otherwise is making you look dishonest, again.

    [ Parent ]
    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by squeaky on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 03:36:28 PM EST
    You do not get it. Why don't you forget about Hanson and stick with the NRC or CIS report which he uses as a strawman to debunk anti-immigration fearmongers. Because that seems to be all you are reading in Hanson's report, or at least quoting.

    It is odd that if you do not see undocumented workers as a problem, which you seem to be vaguely implying,  that you would only quote from Hanson's strawman, the NRC report.

    If you actually read Hanson's report, you would know that he argues that there is little to worry about low skilled undocumented workers taking away jobs from Americans. He goes on to say that the flow of undocumented workers efficiently helps the free market in the US. He also debunks the current version of a guest worker plan as a bad idea.

    Hanson's own words:

    This analysis concludes that there is little evidence that legal immigration is economically preferable to illegal immigration. In fact, illegal immigration responds to
    market forces in ways that legal immigration does not.

    [snip]

    Due to steady increases in high school completion rates, native-born U.S. workers with low schooling levels are increasingly hard to find. Yet these workers are an important part of the U.S. economy--they build homes, prepare food, clean offices,
    harvest crops, and take unfilled factory jobs. Between 1960 and 2000, the share of working-age native-born U.S. residents with less than twelve years of schooling fell from
    50 percent to 12 percent.

    [snip]

    From an economic perspective, the question for policymakers then becomes whether the costs of halting illegal immigration would significantly outweigh the possible benefits. This paper has already discussed the benefits that come from having a flexible supply of low-skilled labor, which would be jeopardized by some of the reforms being considered. In addition, the enforcement costs of reducing the flow of illegal migrants are
    substantial and growing.

    [snip]

    If immigration reform has the effect of replacing flexible and mobile illegal workers with inflexible and immobile guest workers, it would be likely to diminish the immigration surplus that foreign labor generates for the U.S. economy.

    [snip]

    If, instead, illegal immigrants were allowed to remain in the country and obtain legal residence visas, the economic impact would depend on the rights granted to these individuals. In the short run, the economic impact of legalization would likely be
    minimal.

    Why you are concerned about the border and employers that hire the undocumented as you indicate in your reply to ppj. Somehow I doubt that you are concerned for the undocumented workers health and wellbeing:

    Outside of the (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:52:47 PM EST
    impact of illegal aliens, which I think is huge and getting larger, I agree. And a legal foreign worker program works for me.
    But if we don't close the border we will never fix the problem.

    Do that first.

    I think the two main levers are (none / 0) (#84)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 04:15:01 PM EST
    control of the borders and control of the employers.  



    [ Parent ]
    nobody lives at the "macro" level (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 03:02:29 AM EST
    now, do they? So when speaking of contributions, we might want to focus on the people, not the statistics, right? If you can't get the name of those people right, or don't see the point in it, then perhaps you might want to before you offer more of your ever so brilliant analysis sarc.

    [ Parent ]
    in my first post.

    At the micro level in some localities illegal immigrants take jobs from and reduce the incomes of some citizens and/or legal immigrant workers.

    That in a different locality they raise the incomes of some citizens and/or legal immigrant workers doesn't do those in another locality who are negatively impacted much good, now does it?

    [ Parent ]

    sure (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 10:40:22 AM EST
    but then the question isn't one, as PPJ here would have it, of whether undocumented workers contribute to the US economy, since clearly they do, but how best to manage it. This is a complex issue to be sure and is very location and industry specific. The benefits and deficits of undocumented immigrant labor are unevenly distributed and that causes no end of problems.

    But in no case can I agree with those who see in the permeability of the border some profound existential threat to the US, nor do I think much of approaching Hispanic/Catholic culture with the Buchananite culture clash rhetoric favored by this site's resident "social liberal." Rather, I consistently argue for the rational reform of immigration law. Look at the suggestions found in the thread's lead for some basic, good ideas.

     

    [ Parent ]

    And I am happy to respond (1.00 / 0) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 03:29:44 PM EST
    but then the question isn't one, as PPJ here would have it, of whether undocumented workers contribute to the US economy, since clearly they do,

    You seem to be hung up on the fact that illegal aliens spend some of the money they make from jobs in the US, in the US. No one disputes that.

    The issue is that if they had not been here the jobs would have been taken by legal US workers and the same money would have been spent.

    And since they have contributed nothing additional, the net gain is zero. For every dollar earned and spent by the illegal aliens, a dollar was not earned and spent by legal workers.

    As for the economic and social conditions in the countries that were settled by/possessions of non-English speaking people, all you have to do is look at the results.

    Do you think people are flooding into the US because their native countries are meeting their needs?

    Hey Ma! Everything is great! Let's leave all our friends and family and walk hundreds of miles to take a low paying job in the US.

    You scream complex because that is the classic way to keep the status quo. It is just too complicated to fix. That, of course, is nonsense. I repeat what I wrote earlier.

    Problem. We have  a huge influx of illegal aliens who are depressing the wage levels, job market for legal US workers. Plus they are stressing the infrastructure and costing billions in services.
    1.    Close the border.
    2.    Determine what to do with the 13,000,000 already here.
    2a. Deport all of them. Not feasible.
    2b. Eliminate sanctuary cities, deport those caught.
    2c. Change laws to stop children born to illegals becoming citizens. (Anchor babies)
    2d. Severely punish all employers who hire illegals. (Dry up jobs)
    2e. Provide free transportation and no sanctions for those who ask to be transported home.
    3. Pressure Mexico and CA (Central America) governments to change.
    3a. Be business friendly.
    3b. Be union friendly.
    3c. Establish safety nets.
    3d. Mandatory school attendance.
    3e. Change real estate to freehold.
    3f. State sponsored birth control.. and other things to change the legal and cultural position from a Spainish/Catholic base to a Northern European  based culture and legal system.
    Would it be easy? No. But if we don't the long term results will give us a country much like Mexico.... I guess if you are in the ruling class that doesn't bother you.
    But I'm too much of a social liberal for it to suit me.


    [ Parent ]
    I gave you mine. (1.00 / 0) (#125)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 03:32:31 PM EST
    I consistently argue for the rational reform of immigration law. Look at the suggestions found in the thread's lead for some basic, good ideas.

    Forget the NYT. Let's hear some of your very own.

    And no place in your suggestions will you say close the border and get control of the situation.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 04:13:13 PM EST
    PPJ, you retyped the same tired, offensive stuff. You make the same ridiculous claims and make the same foolish pronouncement on postcolonial history. Impressive. (Note to PPJ, they're not "anchor babies," they're US citizens.)

    Give it a rest, PPJ, you lost the argument because as the thread's lead shows, there are many ways forward that aren't based on fear, xenophobia, or lies. Stop offering that unhappy trifecta if you want to actually have a conversation.

    Otherwise, go cry to your buds at Gates of Vienna and Powerlies about how the mean liberals treat you.

    [ Parent ]

    And you can think (1.00 / 1) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 05:53:51 PM EST
    of nothing but open borders.

    Tell me. Why do people leave their friends and families and become illegal aliens??

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??

    [ Parent ]

    No one does. (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 01:34:26 PM EST
    Though some become "Undocumented residents", which there is nothing "illegal" or "criminal" about,  and referring to them as "illegal" or "criminal" is simply a dishonest attempt at demonizing them.

    Myself, I prefer to be honest in my demonizing of wingers. They are dishonest and not worth "debating" with, since their views are not just "another point of view as valid as any other" to be debated, but are sick mindsets to be eliminated, while holders of those "views" are to be marginalized out of political existence.

    Tell me. Why do people leave honesty behind and become people like you, ppj?

    [ Parent ]

    hehe (1.00 / 2) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 02:40:32 PM EST
    If they aren't here illegally, why does ICE deport'em??

    You are funny, edgey. You can't even put up a decent strawman.

    hehe

    [ Parent ]

    You'l have to ask ICE. (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:15:19 PM EST
    Now, your answer to my last question is...?

    (not that I expect you to asnswer it)

    [ Parent ]

    There isn't one (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by Nowonmai on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:18:47 PM EST
    It's the inevitable 'strawmen' response, in lieu of a reason or answer. The one he gives when he runs out of pseudo-logic.

    [ Parent ]
    But... but... (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:21:59 PM EST
    He seems to have a bottomless well of "pseudo-logic", no? ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by Nowonmai on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:25:02 PM EST
    I think it's the only thing that can get him through the day. I found an old comment/post by me to him, concerning his constant use of term 'strawmen' to avoid answering questions with thought and reason. Funnily enough, he didn't respond.

    [ Parent ]
    He's just projecting when he says that... (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:40:32 PM EST
    As with everything else he accuses people of...

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by squeaky on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:28:53 PM EST
    b
    o
    t
    t
    o
    m
    l
    e
    s
    s
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    [ Parent ]
    I don't know though, Squeaky, Heh! (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:51:51 PM EST
    We'll get to the bottom of this one day... I think. ;-)

    He'll be the last Coulternating Cotton Dandy Condilyzing Demagogarrhea spreading man  standing...

    A real "George Chuvalo":

    A comment thread denizen who just won't quit. Nobody could knock George Chuvalo down. He just kept smashing the other guy in the fists with his face until the fight was over.


    [ Parent ]
    Well, since those issues are ppj's (none / 0) (#121)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 11:34:40 AM EST
    I'll let him respond.

    [ Parent ]
    About as wrong as wrong can be (1.00 / 2) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 12:51:30 PM EST
    At some point it must address the 12 million undocumented, who cannot be deported en masse.

    Actually the first issue isn't deporting 12 million people. It is stopping the continual massive influx of new illegals. That can be done by strict enforcement of the borders by the National Guard and all law enforcement agencies arresting and immediatelydeporting the ones caught.

    As a secondary measure, those employing illegal aliens should be severely sanctioned with jail time and fines.

    Nor can the government purge workplaces of illegal workers without doing vast damage to the economy.

    Wrong. The jobs do not exist because of the availabiliy of illegal aliens, they exist because there is a market for the product the companies produce. If an illegal alien is deported, a legal worker will take the job.

    Simply put, the illegal aliens take jobs. They don't create them and they don't bring them with them. They contribute nothing to the economy. Plus
    every penny spent on any service to illegal aliens is a 100% loss.

    It may be that some companies will have to start paying decent wages and benefits as well as providing safe working conditions. And what in the world can anyone claiming to be a Liberal find wrong with that?

    Once residing in this country, our immigrant workers are entitled to recognition and the right to living wages, safe working conditions and other worker  protections.

    What that means is "open borders." With that comes the fact that citizenship means nothing. If you say that everyone is an American Citizen then no one is an American Citizen.

    Good googly moogly (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Nowonmai on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 05:18:36 PM EST
    Wrong. The jobs do not exist because of the availabiliy of illegal aliens, they exist because there is a market for the product the companies produce. If an illegal alien is deported, a legal worker will take the job.

    I almost blew my adenoids out laughing at this asinine statement. The undocumented workers are doing jobs that used to be done by convicts, until that was deemed slavery and stopped.

    What that means is "open borders." With that comes the fact that citizenship means nothing. If you say that everyone is an American Citizen then no one is an American Citizen.

    What a load! There are citizens, and then there are residents who have the same rights as citizens (voting, getting public assistance, etc). Illegal immigrants don't have the same rights, but they do have right not to be abused, shot, or enslaved.

    You really need to put away your David Copperfield/Dickens civics, and join the 21st century.

    [ Parent ]

    hehe (1.00 / 2) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:31:11 PM EST
    The undocumented workers are doing jobs that used to be done by convicts, until that was deemed slavery and stopped.

    Oh, really?? All our farm workers were convicts?? Someone forgot to tell my family.

    All the meat packers, construction workers, landscape workers, hotel workers, waiters, bus boys, etc, etc.... They were all convicts??? No one told me because I worked all of those except meat packers....

    And I love this.

    but they do have right not to be abused, shot, or enslaved.

    Wow. Does this mean you are now ready to join me in my call to close the borders and force Mexico, and other governments, to fix their problems??

    Gosh. I am surprised. Really. I mean it... I didn't think you were smart enough to see what was causing the problem.

    Congrats,

    [ Parent ]

    you don't get it (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by Jen M on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:40:58 AM EST
    you never will

    You even QUOTED the phrase which grantees no one will hear anything else you say about this.

    We aren't talking about people.

    This excludes you entirely from the disscussion.

    We are talking about people, you aren't.  Two separate discussions, yours is with yourself and yourself alone.

    WE are talking about people. You are blathering on about something else, and pretending your question hasn't been answered. (or, you know, it was too subtle for you)

    [ Parent ]

    Jen, he can't (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Nowonmai on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 08:10:36 PM EST
    He just can't be humanised. He quoted the exact statement, which didn't change the meaning of it one wit, and then he tries to defend an indefensible position/statement.

    It's right along with it's ok by him to torture people he 'doens't give a flip about', or 'a subset'.

    I still say he is a shill, or just a stirrer. Nothing of real substance, just inane comments in an silly attempt to evoke a reaction. Must be cheaper for him to boost his blood pressure this way than with meds.

    [ Parent ]

    Your turm (1.00 / 1) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:00:36 PM EST
    Sigh.....

    Could any of you people (hehehe) refute my claim rather than simmering over my describing illegal aliens as illegal aliens???

    Tell you what. You can call them Joe, Moe, or anything you want as long as you answer my question.

    How about.. "People from outside the US who have no legal documentation to be in the country..."

    Now. Refute my point that they contribute NOTHING to the economy.

    BTW - What is it about me not caring what you, Jen, tnthorpe, squeaky, edger, etc.... think about me??? I wouldn't walk across the street to meet you. I am a ROF!. I do hope you are employed and paying into Social Security and Medicare.... None of which you are likely to get a dime back from because of the Left's opposition to reforming it and the huge influx of illegal aliens who will getting back billions more than they paid in.

    [ Parent ]

    You just don't understand (1.00 / 1) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 09:52:08 PM EST
    We aren't talking about "people." We are talking about a group of people aka known as illegal aliens..

    We could say the same about professional baseball players accused of using steroids...

    It is necessary in this life to define the subject or you will wander endlessly in the forest of idon'tknowwhati'mtalking about.

    If you think I will join you in your  willful ignorance you are  wrong.

    BTW - I note you don't even try to refute my point. This is obviously because you recognize the accuracy and truthfulness of it.

    [ Parent ]

    whatever (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Jen M on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:07:28 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Nowonmai on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:10:16 PM EST
    He seems to think this is a 'gotcha last!' thing.

    Not worth replying

    [ Parent ]

    hehe (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 09:14:57 AM EST
    Since you can't prove my point wrong, you slink off.

    Figures.

    [ Parent ]

    more like (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Jen M on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 10:39:22 AM EST
    no one gives a flying hoot about answreing you.

    Not after the above.

    Why bother when you will not read, ignore, or forget it.

    You aren't our professor.

    [ Parent ]

    Too thick (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 05:09:37 PM EST
    To understand that he is a 'Poe', and his own contradictory comments show him for what he is.

    [ Parent ]
    Nope (1.00 / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 01:50:00 PM EST
    Nope. If could handle the question and prove me wrong you would be chomping on the bit, slobbering on the reins and roaring.

    But since you can't you make nutso claims that illegal aliens aren't illegal aliens.... and because I call them that, you won't answer.... why?? Your feelings are hurt??? For who?? The illegal aliens??

    hehehe

    [ Parent ]

    uh huh (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Jen M on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 02:43:30 PM EST
    Whatever

    [ Parent ]
    I accept your admission of defeat. (1.00 / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 04:20:13 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    whatever (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Jen M on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 04:52:12 PM EST


    [ Parent ]