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Friday Open Thread

It's our third snow storm of the week and I'm going to take a snow day. Here's a place for you to chat. All topics welcome. Some things to read:

  • Kagro X at Daily Kos has a list of Bush vetoes.
  • David Neiwert at Firedoglake on Civil Liberties and Terrorism.
  • Eriposte at LeftCoaster's exhaustive reasons for why he's chosen his favorite Democratic candidate.
  • The LA Times editorials, Liberty and Justice, examining the role of the President in matters of freedom and equal justice under the law.
    The next president must recognize that this nation is defined by its liberties. Personal freedom must not become collateral damage in the war on terror -- for if that occurs, we have lost it all.

< Hillary and The Roosevelts | Italia Federici Sentenced to 2.5 Months Halfway House in Abramoff Investigaton >
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  • Display: Sort:
    The Clinton Era, Certainly No Panacea (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Aaron on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 03:21:15 PM EST
    Here's an argument for resisting a return to the Clinton era, that evaluates the tactics and policies of the Clintons, which greatly contributed to the problems we have today.

    Hillary and the Clinton Legacy


    [....the signature initiatives of the Clinton years -- NAFTA and the corporate trading world, budget surpluses, repealing welfare, posing tough on crime, reducing the size of government, proclaiming the "era of big government is over" -- are part of the problems, not part of the solutions that the next president must face. And as a candidate, Hillary has had to distance herself from many of her husband's core policies.

    Corporate trade accords and deregulation of capital and banking were a centerpiece of Rubinomics, the Clinton economic policy of former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin. But banking deregulation contributed directly to the mortgage and credit crisis. Unsustainable global deficits have decimated U.S. industry and undermined the dollar. Our economy is dependent on the "kindness of strangers," primarily Chinese and Japanese central bankers. Wages are stagnant; health care and pension promises are being abandoned. A new global economic strategy is imperative. And Hillary gets it: She's called for a "time out" on trade accords, questioned the value of restarting the current global round, and promised a revision of NAFTA. ]

    [Clinton celebrated the decline in the size of government, with his "reinventing government" looking for ways to privatize and outsource federal work. The results wasted billions, reduced government efficiency, and set the stage for Halliburton's plunder and Blackstone's crimes. Now even Hillary calls for an investigation and rollback of privatization. The next president will, one hopes, once more celebrate public service.

    Clinton is praised for disarming "law and order" as a Republican political weapon, putting police on the street and championing harsh sentencing laws from the death penalty to three strikes and out. But the results - in a starkly discriminatory system of criminal injustice - have been truly calamitous to the African-American community, laying waste to the lives and hopes of young men, undermining families, and crippling communities. Now even conservative Republican governors seek ways to lower sentences, let nonviolent prisoners out of jail and balk at enforcing death sentences too often racially skewed.

    Clinton's repeal of welfare succeeded in reducing the number of people on welfare, if not the number in poverty. Now, however, the neglected second part of the promise -- making work pay -- is the central challenge. The next Democratic president will be seeking ways to build a public social contract - living wages, health care, public pensions and mandated sick days -- to replace the private benefits that corporations are abandoning. ]




    Come on JEM... (none / 0) (#1)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 11:41:56 AM EST
    It is hardly what I would call a snow "storm" out there.  It's barely even coming down.  The real storm won't come until right around Christmas when I'm trying to get to DIA.

    I can understand not wanting to get out of a warm bed or go out in the cold, but you're going to have to toughen up a bit if you're going to survive Iowa!

    I just hate driving in it (none / 0) (#5)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 01:09:38 PM EST
    and it's been coming down where I am all day. If I were going to stay in all day, there'd be no reason not to blog.

    Ok, I'm off to drive to my next appointment.

    Parent

    Obama ahead in New Hampshire (none / 0) (#3)
    by Aaron on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 01:06:01 PM EST
    Obama edges Clinton in poll

    Barack Obama has come from behind to turn the Democratic presidential race in New Hampshire into a toss-up, according to a new Monitor opinion poll. The results - which show Obama with a one-point edge over Hillary Clinton - mirror other polls released this week, indicating that Clinton's once-imposing lead has evaporated in the run-up to New Hampshire's Jan. 8 primary.

    The poll suggests that the Democratic race could hinge on the turnout of undeclared voters, who aren't registered with either political party. Much of Obama's backing comes from undeclared voters, while registered Democrats make up the bulk of Clinton's support. In New Hampshire, undeclared voters can vote in either party primary, giving them sway in both contests.




    with the 3 or 4 point margin of error (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 01:07:39 PM EST
    they are tied. But, it's still a surge for Obama. I wonder if it's Oprah related.

    Parent
    HA Oprah related (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jgarza on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 01:12:26 PM EST
    he still has to win Iowa to actually pull it off, or at least come out ahead of Clinton.  Her ground operation would easily win him out if it is just  statistical tie like now.

    Parent
    I think Edwards now (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 01:20:34 PM EST
    plays a bigger role too. One article I read today said he could even win it.

    Parent
    At this point, (none / 0) (#13)
    by scribe on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 01:28:56 PM EST
    in Iowa it's all horse-race, don't screw up, sudden "Gotcha!" and work the ground game to get turnout.  NH is only marginally less so.

    Frankly, it is absurd to be doing this in December, let alone voting in January.  I'd much rather push the first date back until the first week in February, and extend things out into May.  IIRC, in '68 RFK, Sr. won California in the first week of May, and that made the convention "up for grabs" even at that late date.  I don't recall when Gene McCarthy started in NH (probably late '67) but even then, it was conceivable to start a campaign about a year before the general and have a realistic chance.

    Here's hoping the examples of Florida and Michigan will inject some sense into the next iteration.

    Parent

    A new Fox News Poll (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 01:28:40 PM EST
    A new FOX News poll from Dec. 11-13 of 500 likely Democratic primary voters in New Hampshire showed her with 34 percent, over Obama with 25 percent and former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards with 15 percent. The survey, which had a margin of error of 4 points, put Clinton up from a 7-point advantage at the end of November.

    I think the polling is all over the map.  I think it's too close to call. Again though, Obama seems to be rising in the numbers even if he's not ahead.

    Parent

    HRC and her campaign (none / 0) (#14)
    by scribe on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 01:30:03 PM EST
    wouldn't be flailing around the way they are, were their own internals not trending negatively for her.

    Parent
    flailing (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jgarza on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 02:15:17 PM EST
    ha the first think it thought of when i read that was Mark P Doing something akin to Borat, in the confederate gift shop in his movie... nice mental image.

    Parent
    Jeralyn come on, Fox news/PROPAGANDA (none / 0) (#17)
    by Aaron on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 02:10:21 PM EST
    I never thought I'd see you posting the link to Fox on your blog.  

    What has the world come to?  :-)

    Parent

    Recomended reads! (none / 0) (#12)
    by Jgarza on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 01:28:52 PM EST
    Every attempt to portray Obama as negative falls flat.  There is no sound bite or direct quote that is a convincing display of negativity. I think the Washingtonpost has has a good explanation of why. It says that Obama has indeed been going negative on Clinton since he launched his campaign. It is just death by paper cuts, the attacks are never really direct enough for her to convincingly attack from  defensive position.  read the wapo article here

    The New York Times discusses the apologies of Clinton and Huckabee, it questions the sincerity of there apologies, and points out that their campaigns continue to bring up the issue they apologized for. Apologies From the Heart (of Darkness?)

    Why does Edwards get a free pass to say:

       Mr. Edwards responded: "Well, I've been very aggressive about ending the war, and from the very beginning, and the things that we need to do to bring this war to an end," he said.

    Dear Mr. Edwards: Define "Beginning"

    Bill said something similar to this and got hammered, why does Edwards get away with it?  Anyone else noticed that he has co-opted Hillary's rhetoric about being a fighter, hasn't he accused other candidates of stealing his ideas?

    Tape-destroying CIA official lawyers up (none / 0) (#15)
    by scribe on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 01:41:08 PM EST
    The former CIA official who is reported to have caused the destruction of the torture tapes has hired Bill Clinton's former criminal defense lawyer, Robert Bennett.

    Apparently, he was one of the CIA officals who bought that insurance against being held liable for actions in the course of their employment, though if the report that the policy pays up to $200k for legal fees is true, he's probably already taken a big bite out of that coverage just by hiring Bennett.

    Obama picking up Black voters in South Carolina (none / 0) (#16)
    by Aaron on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 02:02:47 PM EST
    South Carolina: Huckabee Bolts to the Top of the GOP; Obama Cuts into the Clinton Lead

    [Obama, who moved up 7 points since the July poll, was helped by increased support among black voters.

    While in July, 33 percent of African-American Democrats said they would vote for Obama, he now has 45 percent of their support compared to Clinton's 46 percent.

    Among Democrats, 41 percent said they've definitely made up their minds about who they'll vote for in the primary, while 22 percent told pollsters early primary results could help them decide.]



    Mukasey to Congress, re torture tapes (none / 0) (#19)
    by scribe on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 02:43:30 PM EST
    "F Off.  If I tell you anything, that'll mean I'm subject to political pressure.

    Of course, the coordinated 0630 raids to serve grand jury subpoenas on about a dozen of Al Sharpton's associates, for financial records, and the advise to the papers that a grand jury was looking - that wasn't political.  Nooo.  Not at all.

    He'd be risible, if he weren't the AG.

    Iowa polls averaged, Obama leading (none / 0) (#20)
    by Aaron on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 02:50:22 PM EST
    Iowa polling, RCP average 12/03-12/13

    Obama -- 29.8

    Clinton -- 26.8

    Edwards -- 21.8


    newbie site question (none / 0) (#21)
    by Robert Oak on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 03:03:08 PM EST
    Hi, I just made an account on here but see no place to post a diary/article.  Is this site invitation only for diaries or is there some sort of other system, such as mojo/waiting period?

    Invitation only (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Aaron on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 04:25:43 PM EST
    And it helps if your lawyer.

    Parent
    It's also by request (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 08:18:34 PM EST
    you need to email me and include some samples of your writings or comments on other sites and the topics you are interested in writing on. You have to have views similar to TalkLeft's to be a diarist. I'm not interested in hosting diaries by conservatives.  You have to be willing to follow the sites commenting rules, no profanity or personal attacks. Diarists don't have to be a lawyer. (Those of us who write on the front page do have to be lawyers.) Cross-posting what you've written at your own or on other blogs is fine.

    Parent
    Iowa's own... (none / 0) (#23)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 03:28:44 PM EST
    ...answer to Tom Tancredo, Steve King, strikes again.  After single handedly winning the war on Christmas with his resolution the other day, Steve turns his focus to education:

    "If you teach American history, you cannot teach it without teaching Christianity."

    Someone wasn't paying attention in Civics class.

    You cant teach it without (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 01:59:27 PM EST
    teaching socialism and the history of the labor movement either, but, unfortuantly (or fortunatly)the ignint never know when to keep their mouths shut before thinking about the implications of what they say.

    Parent
    You obviously (1.00 / 1) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 08:20:02 PM EST
    haven't heard of the Pilgrams, etc, etc.

    Public school, eh??

    Parent

    That's alright (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 01:53:04 PM EST
    just send a "spirit seed" donation to the televangelist of your choice and we'll forgive your public school/socialist education.

    Parent
    That... (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 02:06:58 PM EST
    ..."public school" education at least taught me the difference between teaching ABOUT religion and teaching religion.  Two very distinct things.

    My parents taught me not to feed the trolls.  Guess that means I'm done with you.

    Parent

    I don't know your parents (1.00 / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 04:11:48 PM EST
    and wonder why you would want to bring them in to a discussion.

    And if you admit you can't disprove my point, be my guest.

    Let me give you a hint.

    To be able to teach early American history you must study the Pilgrims, and other sects that came to this country. To do that effectively you must be able to understand the basic tenets of Christianity because they were the direct motivators of the people involved.

    So you must teach Christianity to allow the student to understand. Now that doesn't mean you try to convert the students, nor claim that Christianity is best, etc.

    BTW - Have you ever been to a movie where you didn't understand the motivation of the characters? Did you get much from the movie??

    Same thing.

    BTW - Do you remember the scene in Lawrence of Arabia when

    ....on his journey, his Bedouin guide is killed by Sherif Ali (Omar Sharif) for drinking from his well without permission.

    Do you remember the explanation?? From that point .. from that motivation, all of Lawrence's problems are understood.. right down to the capture of Damascus and the failure of the tribes to hold it and become a modern democratic country.

    Now, take your elitist over sized ego and go play with the children. You obviously can't play with the adults.

    Parent

    By all means, teach children (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:42:47 AM EST
    the beliefs of the pro-slavery, witch hunting, fellow Christian shunning, family destroying, preter-naturally superstitious Pilgrims, so that people can better understand what they lead to.

    I wont hold my breath waiting for the demogogues of the Right to advocate teaching the history and tenets of ALL major religions, though: too much "understanding" is un-American; ee-leetist.

    Parent

    And, in one of those Only in NYC (none / 0) (#24)
    by scribe on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 03:49:28 PM EST
    stories, the story continues to develop.  The lede, by the way, was Muslim steps in to save Jews.  

    It's looking like a bias crime indictment may well be coming for the youts who beat up three Jews on the Subway. They had their initial appearance yesterday.

    For those not up on the story, it went like this.  Last weekend, on a subway train bound for Brooklyn, three friends, all Jewish, got on the subway coming home from a Chanaukah party.  One was carrying a menorah, and they had dreidels, too.  A group of mooks, male and female, shouted out "Merry Christmas!" The woman in the group of Jews responded "Happy Chaunakah".

    The mooks then responded by showing their Jesus tattoos, and telling the Jews that, because the Jews had killed Jesus on Chaunakah, they were going to get some back, and led off by spitting in the Jewish girl's face.  I think what really set them off was her then reminding them that Jesus turned the other cheek.

    And, the mooks started in to beating on the Jews.
    At this point, the Bangladeshi Muslim accounting student (5'7", 140, also works two waiter jobs to make ends meet, but does not go for medical treatment because he has no health insurance), steps in to help the Jews (whom he perceives just as people being beaten for no good reason).

    Mayhem ensues, with the end result that one of the Jewish guys gets a broken nose and a black eye, and the Bangladeshi Muslim got two black eyes.  

    The mooks are arrested at the station.

    This incident made the cover of the Post under the headline:  "Peace Train".

    The Jews invite the Muslim over for Chaunakah dinner.

    The lead mook says it couldn't have been a bias crime, because his mom is half-Jewish.  His dad isn't around right about now - he's usually a fireman, but he's in Iraq in the Army.

    The lead mook tried the same angle in another case, where he was accused of an anti-black racial bias assault, for which he was/is soon to start serving his sentence.  In the earlier case, he told cops he couldn't be anti-black, because he's a member of the Bloods - a two-star general, even.  Tattoos and clothes, too.

    One is compelled to wonder how well his alleged membership (and general's stars!) in the Bloods will serve him once he goes inside.

    Sounds like an outtake from that "Left Behind" video game. The one that HRC and Short Ride Joe won't criticize.  But, this is real, sadly.  This is the kind of thing that happens when religion gets into politics.

    Truly Sad... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 04:25:49 PM EST
    ...and uplifting at the same time.  

    A muslim helping out a group of Jewish kids--that's got to have some wingnut heads exploding.

    Parent

    no comment (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jen M on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:12:35 PM EST
    from Bill Oreily on this one? Isn't he always spouting off about "Merry Christmas" v. other greetings?  

    Parent
    A Friend Of Mine (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 05:48:24 PM EST
    Was on the train and witnessed the whole thing. He is Jewish and was horrified by the incident. His take was quite different than your report.

    What he said happened was that the victims in question were extremely stupid and obnoxious. They were going through the train saying happy Hannukah to everyone in an almost drunken fashion, as if they were looking for a fight. When the bullies were confronted with their behavior told them to f'off  they started in with accusing them of being anti-semitic and taunting them. That escalated into anti-semitic insults and a reign of fists on the victims. My friend was embarrassed because they were acting like stupid a'holes while representing his religion. He said "so much for the notion that all Jews are smart".

    To top it off one of the victims pulled the emergency cord between stops which pissed off and scared everyone on the train. The cops came running down the tracks and arrested the perps.

    Parent

    Thanks for the insight squeaky (none / 0) (#29)
    by Aaron on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 07:46:03 PM EST
    Funny how things get spun by the media, I didn't hear anything like that in the CNN report, just some innocent Jews being set upon by anti-Semites.

    Anybody who knows the New York subways, knows that if you're interested in looking for trouble or confrontation, it's easy enough to find there.  That's why most savvy folks don't make eye contact or talk to anyone they don't know, if they can avoid it :-)

    I noticed that the New York Post article does make some mention of the provocation. Perhaps these young people, who appear to be upper or upper-middle-class, have now smartened up and learned their lesson -- when you're drunk and feeling frisky, take a cab, it's a hell of a lot safer, and worth the extra Dinero to avoid getting the crap beaten out of you.  


    Parent

    I liked the part (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 08:21:14 PM EST
    where he says his goal is to join the military when he's done with his sentence on the assault charge.

    Parent
    HA (none / 0) (#33)
    by Jgarza on Fri Dec 14, 2007 at 08:54:54 PM EST
    Sounds like a recruiters dream come true.

    Parent