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CIA Interrogator Comes Forward: Used Waterboarding, Says It's Torture

Meet former CIA Agent John Kiriakou. He's come out to ABC News, admitting he's the one who waterboarded Abu Zubaydah (background here.) He tells ABC that Zubaydah "broke in less than 35 seconds," and that yes, water-boarding is torture.

"We're Americans, and we're better than this. And we shouldn't be doing this kinda thing," he said.

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    How long before he's smeared? (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by rdandrea on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 07:35:15 PM EST
    n/t

    Great (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by ctrenta on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:24:31 AM EST

    Now Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and other NGOs will be all over our country's ass now. So much for land of the free, home of the brave, and justice for all.

    There is nothing (1.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:37:48 AM EST
    we can do, or could have done, or should have done to prevent these various groups from doing what they do, which is complain.

    In the meantime, rest assured that the sun will continue to rise and your life will not be impacted one iota.

    [ Parent ]

    Those groups also "complain".... (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:10:43 PM EST
    an awful lot about the practices of fundamentalist muslim governments that you and I abhor.

    One could say the are consistent in their "complaining" about human rights abuses throughout the world.  And sun god bless them for it.

    [ Parent ]

    And they do absolutely (1.00 / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:31:39 PM EST
    no good in the "rest" of the world.

    [ Parent ]
    Not So Bad? (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by john horse on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 06:42:23 PM EST
    If you say that waterboarding isn't torture but just another interrogation technique then you are allowing foreign governments to waterboard American POWs and American citizens accused of crimes.  You can't have it both ways.  If it is not so bad when our government does it then it is also not so bad when foreign governments do it to Americans.

    not a problem (none / 0) (#76)
    by wumhenry on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 10:24:58 AM EST
    OK by me if foreign governments waterboard American terrorists to get information with which to prevent further acts of terrorism.

    [ Parent ]
    Did you enjoy it? (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:20:40 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"

    I (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by Claw on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 11:34:06 AM EST
    Wonder if torture apologists ever step back and look at what they're defending.  Have we sunk this low?  We're having a serious national debate on just how brutal we can be to prisoners.  Anything that gets a hardliner to provide info (or anything to stop the pain) within a matter of seconds is presumptively torture.  The onus is definitely on the other side to prove it isn't.  If your best argument is the ol' organ failure line or a list of Jack Bauer scenarios, you probably can't be reasoned with.

    They do. (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 03:36:07 PM EST
    It's hard, but they like it that way. It gets their hormones all fizzy.

    [ Parent ]
    This Guy Is A Liar (4.66 / 3) (#2)
    by john horse on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 07:39:55 PM EST
    This guy is a liar (sarcasm alert).  I know this because the President said that we don't use torture.  The CIA said that we don't condone or conduct torture.  What other explanation can there be for the contradiction between what he says and what they said?

    According to Kiriakou

    "Each one of these steps, even though they're minor steps, like the intention shake, or the open-handed belly slap, each one of these had to have the approval of the deputy director for operations," Kiriakou told ABC News.

    "The cable traffic back and forth was extremely specific," he said. "And the bottom line was these were very unusual authorities that the agency got after 9/11. No one wanted to mess them up. No one wanted to get in trouble by going overboard. So it was extremely deliberate."

    I'm sure that the Bush administration wants to release these cables as quickly as possible in order to show that there isn't an ounce of truth to his allegations.

     

    If they do (2.50 / 2) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 09:06:04 PM EST
    you will see an approval bounce from the country.

    Why? Because people will also read this:

    "A former colleague of mine asked him during the conversation one day, `What would you do if we decided to let you go one day?' And he said, `I would kill every American and Jew I could get my hands on...It's nothing personal. You're a nice guy. But this is who I am.'"


    [ Parent ]
    I think it's time (4.00 / 4) (#3)
    by scribe on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:24:01 PM EST
    for AG Mukasey to come back before the SJC and answer the questions he dodged during his confirmation.

    But We (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by squeaky on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 08:55:07 PM EST
    Won't hold our breath.

    [ Parent ]
    Right (none / 0) (#11)
    by ctrenta on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:22:44 AM EST

    We really are living in 1984 now!

    [ Parent ]
    Moral dilemma (3.66 / 3) (#18)
    by Natal on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:57:41 AM EST
    It's a moral dilemma for this country. It could potentially divide the country like no other issue including abortion.

    There is nothing moral about torture. (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:46:57 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    But really I don't see a moral dilemma. (4.00 / 4) (#22)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:50:07 AM EST
    The people who order and do torture should be charged with and convicted of war crimes, locked up... and treated better then the prisoners they have been torturing.

    U.S. Code: CHAPTER 113C--TORTURE

    Summary of International and U.S. Law Prohibiting Torture and Other Ill-treatment of Persons in Custody
    ..........................
    This Is What Waterboarding Looks Like
    Bottom line: Not only do waterboarding and the other types of torture currently being debated put us in company with the most vile regimes of the past half-century
    ...
    These photos are important because most of us have never seen an actual, real-life waterboard. The press typically describes it in the most anodyne ways: a device meant to "simulate drowning" or to "make the prisoner believe he might drown." But the Khymer Rouge were no jokesters, and they didn't tailor their abuse to the dictates of the Geneva Convention. They-- like so many brutal regimes--made waterboarding one of their primary tools for a simple reason: it is one of the most viciously effective forms of torture ever devised.


    [ Parent ]
    Imminent attacks (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Natal on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 11:46:09 AM EST
    He said many imminent attacks were thwarted through obtaining information with water boarding. Is it true or not? Were lives saved? If it were true that would be the dilemma. Information should be available documenting these supposed imminent attacks. Personally, I don't believe him.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't hold your breath (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 01:45:18 PM EST
    I suspect the claimed thwarted attacks wouldn't hold up to scrutiny.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Maybe I missed it (1.00 / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 10:03:18 AM EST
    but I did not read the word "imminent" in the transcripts.

    Perhaps you can show it to me.

    You can also look here.

    What he said:

    BRIAN ROSS: So in your view the water boarding broke him.
    JOHN: I think it did, yes.
    BRIAN ROSS: And did it make a difference in terms of--
    JOHN: It did. The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks.
    BRIAN ROSS: No doubt about that? That's not some--
    JOHN: No doubt.
    BRIAN ROSS: --hype?
    JOHN: No, no question. No question. The reporting-- I remember reading the reporting, and it was dramatic when it first started coming in. Now,of course, a lot of that was time-sensitive. So after a period of time he wasn't to-- to provide any real actionable information, any information that you could use to disrupt an attack. But what he was able to provide was information on the al Qaeda leadership. For example-- if bin Laden were to do X-- who would be the person to undertake such a-- such an operation? "Oh, logically that would be Mr. Y." And we were able to use that information to kind of get an idea of.....

    Now you can pretend to not believe the importance of this. You can say the guy was lying.

    But let's deal from what he said. Not what you want him to have said.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes. (3.66 / 3) (#25)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 12:05:55 PM EST
    And even if it were true, which I also do not believe, since when are terrorist's actions the guideline for determining morality? Except in the looking glass world of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and the disgustingly self-respectless obsequious ingratiation of their acolytes and supporters?

    [ Parent ]
    Potentially divide the country? (3.66 / 3) (#19)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:16:30 AM EST
    It already has.

    Into human beings... and the morally bankrupt and  intellectually retarded 24 percenters who still try to excuse and support George Bush and Dick Cheney and torture.

    Some people have said to me 'I don't trust anyone who claims to know the truth.'  My response is that some truths are complicated and some truths are simple.  It's no great horror to know the simple truth when you see it.  Torture is an abomination, dropping bombs on babies is an outrage, people deserve healthcare and good treatment, and lying to the people is no way to run a democracy.  All of these things are true.

    One does not compromise with Straussians, neocons, chickenhawks or clueless bastards.  People who still support George W. Bush, torture and war profiteering at this late stage of human history are beyond reason or persuasion.  There is no point whatsoever in worrying about how such people see things, what they might say, or how they might characterize our actions or arguments.  These people should not be appeased or wooed, they should be marginalized and driven back under the rocks from which they have slithered.

    -- No Time Left To Compromise With Evil

    [ Parent ]
    Be glad others protect your precious (1.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:35:37 PM EST
    behind.

    John Stuart Mill: "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war, is worse."

    "A man who has nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance at being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."



    [ Parent ]
    Yeah ... (1.00 / 2) (#28)
    by wumhenry on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:05:35 PM EST
    In this corner we have a bunch of sanctimonious nice nellies and moral poseurs who are pleased as punch that they, in particular, weren't blown up by the bombs that would've been set if Zubaydah hadn't broken after 35 seconds of waterboarding but who want the world to know that they would never have done any such thing under any circumstances and will scream for John Kiriakou's head on a platter.  And in the other corner we have the silent majority.

    [ Parent ]
    and in the other corner (4.20 / 5) (#30)
    by Jen M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:14:03 PM EST
    People who find Amreican laws, traditions, morals and ethics to be horribly inconvenient and want to get rid of them.

    Plus, they loath freedoms and are doing everything humanly possible to take them away from themselves and their children.  

    Because freedom is so unbearable.

    [ Parent ]

    When you start by name calling (4.20 / 5) (#39)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:05:31 PM EST
    You aren't going to persuade a lot of people. Of course, it could be, you weren't interested in a reasoned discussion. You post is awfully sanctimonious for one decrying sanctimonious behavior.

    You also assume facts which have not been established. Its been alleged that Zubaydah hadn't been broken bombs would have been set off. Evidence for this proposition (other than Bush said so)?

    What makes you think the silent majority likes torture or thinks it is a good thing, Milhous? Assuming there is a silent majority, we don't know what they think- they have been silent. I would hope the majority of our citizens like our American values and traditions. Why don't you?  

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Your turn (3.00 / 2) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:27:22 PM EST
    Prove that the bombs wouldn't have gone off.

    Of course the fact is you can't prove anything because you don't know anything and have no facts on anything.

    On the other hand we have a gaggle of radical Moslems all dedicated to killing us and doing such things as beheading people on TV.

    [ Parent ]

    Help us out (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:46:39 PM EST
    Prove that the bombs wouldn't have gone off.

    Just so we know what to provide to you, what would you accept as proof of that?

    [ Parent ]

    I'll let you know (1.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:59:37 PM EST
    Your turn.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks for confirming (4.00 / 4) (#65)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 12:25:10 AM EST
    that no form of evidence would satisfy you.  If I ask for evidence of something, I can always give you an example of evidence that would satisfy me.

    You ask for evidence that something DIDN'T happen, but since proving a negative is impossible, you don't know what the evidence you would accept would be.  

    I knew you were logically deficient, but making you admit it is SUH-WEEEEET!

    [ Parent ]

    If someone asks me to prove something (1.00 / 1) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 06:06:55 PM EST
    I answer with what I see as proof.

    I don't answer with a question.

    You did.

    But I understand that you are serious, just trolling. No problem.

    Your turn.

    [ Parent ]

    It must be a day (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:45:59 PM EST
    for candid, embarrassing confessions on your part.

    But I understand that you are serious, just trolling.

    When you admit that I am serious and you are "just trolling," SUH-WEEET doesn't seem adequate as a celebration of your embarrassment.

    Wait.  I have an official NFL football.  Be right back.

    ...

    Went out in the back yard and spiked it.

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (1.00 / 1) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:21:18 AM EST
    Parsing becomes you.

    The subject of the sentence:


    But I understand that you are serious, just trolling.

    That means you be the troll.

    hehe

    [ Parent ]

    Silly, one doesn't prove a negative (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:14:46 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Prove a negative? (5.00 / 0) (#93)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:12:45 PM EST
    You, and the GOP, and many criminal defense lawyers know this is impossible, short of time travel.

    [ Parent ]
    Whoops, hit post instead of preview (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:15:12 PM EST
    As I said, you, the GOP, and criminal defense lawyers use this tactic knowing full well it can't be done, short of going back and altering past events.

    Which is exactly why they use it.

    [ Parent ]

    hehe (3.00 / 2) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 06:28:39 PM EST
    The proof as they say, is in the pudding... or the lack of the explosions..

    You are invested in BDS and America Bad, therefore anything that sheds some positive light on what and why things are done must be rejected.

    I have provided you a link and two transcripts of an interview with a man who was there. Since he says things you, and the Left, doesn't like you try to change what he said... see the "imminent attack" fake description by Natal... If you don't believe, go to the ABC transcript links and search them.... You can also see Molly's attempt at flipping Diogenes comment so it becomes a middle school debate about what the guy said....

    Unfortunately, the truth comes through... We have waterboarded two evil men and they broke.. If that has insulted your, or anyone's, code of honor, then be insulted. I hope that we do it again, the same way, if we have to.

    BTW - Go read the transcripts to see the control, the caution used to insure it was necessary and not just something someone just wanted to do.

    After you have done that, then go back and review what I said about the casual acts of the guards at Abu Gharid... They were... investigate, charge, try and if convicted, punish. Not because I regarded all of what they did as "torture," but because it was done for the ego/enjoyment/whatever of the guards. To me it is the difference between a lynching and a trial and execution.

    [ Parent ]

    What a stoopid comment. (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by glanton on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 03:05:33 PM EST
    Of course it is not upon us to "prove" their claim false.  

    They are the ones making a pretty enormous claim, what with bombs going off and all.   Even if they didn't have the credbility problems they have, the enormity of the claim demands they be able to substantiate it.  

    Which of course they cannot.  Nor do they need to for you to nod along.  

    Ahh, troglodytes: without thee, where would the ruling classes throughout history have ever been?

    [ Parent ]

    If the polls of likley voters are any indication (none / 0) (#43)
    by Rojas on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:10:00 PM EST
    it's a slam dunk that Americans are just fine with it.
    Hillary is in favor of using tortue and the polls have her at 55%. One must allow that this data point does not consider the fact that some may be ignorant of her position.
    However this is one policy area in wich she actualy does have some experience from her term as co-president. Of course being sensitive to those who detested the tortue, they treated it with much more decorum. They opted to give the tortuers a cash bonus in lue of medals.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not fond of HRC's positions but (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:18:46 PM EST
    this is excessive. The fact she voted for the war, doesn't tend to prove she favors torture. You have a credible link showing she favors torture? Likewise the fact that she is polling at 55% doesn't mean that 55% supports torture either. You are using tortuous logic.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    "Alas, poor country! (none / 0) (#67)
    by Rojas on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 07:30:55 AM EST
    Almost afraid to know itself."


    There is no question that what we did at Waco was torture. We specifically targeted infants and children. We located them with electronic monitors, drove the tank right up to the room where they had sought shelter and dumped  the entire load.
    That these actions likely resuted in the death by suffocation of those children is not something we talk about in polite company.
    Nor do we worry much about orders from the DOJ to shut down after action reviews because they are generating Brady material. After all this was our administration, a Democtatic administation, and as they explained, it's just "Prosecution 101".


    [ Parent ]

    Shakesphere becomes you (1.00 / 0) (#111)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 08:13:56 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    links (none / 0) (#68)
    by Rojas on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 07:32:28 AM EST
    www.nydailynews.com/news/2006/10/16/2006-10-16_mccain_team_mocks_hil_torture_loophole.html

    [ Parent ]
    Your Source appears to be wrong (5.00 / 0) (#69)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 07:46:11 AM EST
    Please Don't make me defend HRC. Here from the horse's mouth (pardon the expression)

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Appears to be a direct quote (none / 0) (#70)
    by Rojas on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 08:02:48 AM EST
    "If we're going to be preparing for the kind of improbable but possible eventuality, then it has to be done within the rule of law," Clinton said in a phone interview Friday, expanding on comments to the Daily News Editorial Board.

    [ Parent ]
    Appears seems to be the key (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 08:27:16 AM EST
    Mine iS a direct quote

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Appears she was for it..... (1.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Rojas on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 07:09:05 AM EST
    and now she claims she's against it. Imagine that, seems one really can be a part time virgin.

    You asked for a credible source and I gave it. If you have some evidence that the source is not credible I'd apreciate that.  

    As I said before, what the clintons did at Waco was torture and a crime against humanity. Absolutly no question about that.
    And it's the clintons who started the CIA rendition program, the outsourcing of torture. It's their baby and their bath water, swim in if you choose.

    [ Parent ]

    What? (3.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 09:09:15 PM EST
    PowerBlind hasn't posted their talking points on this yet? This must be torture for them....

    I watched the video a couple times, and (4.20 / 5) (#16)
    by scribe on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:35:00 AM EST
    it reeks of "insta-declassification" and being WH-provided spin.
    The handsome, earnest, experienced professional says:
    1. "we knew he had information"
    2. "nothing had worked"
    3. "he lasted a long time"
    4. "we only had to do it once"
    5. "he cooperated fully thereafter"

    And, he sells being deeply troubled by it, but that it was necessary.

    He implies it was professionally, almost surgically done, last resort, all the rest.

    And, oh, yeah.  He gave up information and prevented attacks.

    Every last one of these lines has been one of the propaganda lines supporting (or at least defending) the known use of torture by the USG.

    Powerline doesn't have to be spouting the Republican party line when ABC will provide a bigger, allegedly "unbiased" platform.  And the WH doesn't have to comment on the revelation of top secret material (Remember, they want to keep their captives from talking to their lawyers because their treatment is, um, top secret) when they're behind it.  If this propaganda works, they won't ever say anything.  If it doesn't, they can condemn the agent for leaking, but will never prosecute him for violating his security oath, clearance, or the law.

    Watch.

    [ Parent ]

    I gotta agree... (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by desertswine on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:45:17 PM EST
    w/scribe on this. Bullseye.

    [ Parent ]
    A transparent attempt (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:35:12 AM EST
    to somehow get Bush and Cheney off the hook, as was the leak of Pelosi at al being briefed on waterboarding.

    [ Parent ]
    Pelos et al... (1.00 / 1) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 09:09:02 PM EST
    No matter the motive, you are now treated to another example of the hypocrisy of the Demo leaders.

    By their silence they prove that they know that the actions taken were necessary and right. By their condemnations to their base they prove that all they are about is politics.

    Really, edger. How can you stand to be associated with such???

    [ Parent ]

    waterboarding (3.00 / 2) (#6)
    by diogenes on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 10:01:54 PM EST
    If this guy is so honest, and if he says that 35 seconds of waterboarding produced valuable information, why do you all believe his assessment that waterboarding is torture and not his assessment that the information obtained was highly timely and valuable?

    Better Yet (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:26:02 AM EST
    Why do you believe him when he says water-boarding produced valuable information, but don't believe him when he says water-boarding is torture?

    The latter he has first hand knowledge and experience with. The former? We don't know what his belief is based upon. You would have to know what information was extracted and what was done with the information. He may have all of the requisite knowledge and personally stopped or disrupted all these alleged attacks, then again, he may not. We don't know, he hasn't said. I doubt he personally oversaw the response to all the information he extracted by torture. And if he feels it was torture, I suspect (but admittedly do not know) he feels better believing it accomplished something.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    heh (1.00 / 2) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:34:51 AM EST
    Why do you believe him when he says water-boarding produced valuable information, but don't believe him when he says water-boarding is torture?

    Your point is sophomoric in the extreme. It wasn't his job to use the information, but to obtain it.

    I suppose that when you find out the price of a car you also build it??

    [ Parent ]

    It doesn't surprise me you missed the point (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:21:56 AM EST
    The only question is whether it was deliberately or obtusely. I never can tell with you. Sometimes I think  you really are that obtuse, other times I desperately want to believe no-one is that obtuse and after all you are a man who can convince himself that torture is not torture and is OK. Your problem is you can't convince anyone else who hasn't drunk the Jim Jones' Guyana special  flavored drink.

     

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    hehe (1.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:21:30 PM EST
    The answer is that your comment was sophomoric.

    The guy's job was to obtain information, not act on it.

    Again: After you find out the price of a car do tou also build it??

    [ Parent ]

    Double Standared (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Jen M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 09:44:37 PM EST
    waterboarding (1.00 / 2) (#6)
    by diogenes on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 10:01:54 PM EST

    If this guy is so honest, and if he says that 35 seconds of waterboarding produced valuable information, why do you all believe his assessment that waterboarding is torture and not his assessment that the information obtained was highly timely and valuable?

    Jimakappk did not call this sophmoric.

    Double standard.

    He will, of course, answer this post with complete segue into somthing nonsensical. If he answers at all. Best if he don't

    [ Parent ]

    Oh my! (5.00 / 0) (#95)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:30:48 PM EST
    He will, of course, answer this post with complete segue into somthing nonsensical. If he answers at all. Best if he don't

    Wow, talk about an accurate prediction. Can you tell me next weeks Lotto numbers too?

    [ Parent ]

    Really?? (3.00 / 2) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:30:06 PM EST
    Because diogenes was quoting what the man said.

    Molly was just flipping it as if she was in the tenth grade. Form and scoring points is nice in class. In the real world accuracy and truth is more important.

    I hope this helps in your education.

    BTW - This is the type of person you are so concerned about protecting, and doing the type of thing he considers "right."

    Friends and classmates of a 16-year-old girl who police say was murdered by her devout Muslim father in a Toronto suburb told local media Tuesday she was killed for not wearing a hijab.

    Link

    Ranks right up there with the hanging of rape victims.

    [ Parent ]

    as predicted. (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Jen M on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 02:06:11 AM EST
    double standard. Tea in China.

    [ Parent ]
    No and a try (1.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:26:36 AM EST
    If you can not see Molly using a very old technique to switch a point... well, you can't....I understand that is just who you are.

    You love EVERYBODY except those who are trying to protect you.

    And yes Jen, there is true evil in the world. There are people who would cheerfully do things to you that you can not even imagine.

    [ Parent ]

    I've seen some of it (4.00 / 4) (#80)
    by Jen M on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 11:26:01 AM EST
    "And yes Jen, there is true evil in the world. There are people who would cheerfully do things to you that you can not even imagine. "

    So naturally, you want us to become just like them. Because you think that the way to confront evil is to become evil.

    [ Parent ]

    some folks need to heed (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 12:29:05 PM EST
    "He who who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    And he who does not (1.00 / 1) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:47:59 PM EST
    is destroyed by the Monster.

    I'll take my chance on who I become...

    [ Parent ]

    No said not to fight the monster (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 06:52:35 AM EST
    The question is how and the point is not to become the monster. Reading is fundamental.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    I think evil does evil (1.00 / 1) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:46:25 PM EST
    And yes, I would destroy those who would harm others.

    BION, when the lamb lies down with the lion, the lion has dinner.

    [ Parent ]

    Jim, Jim Jim, (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 06:15:31 PM EST
    Jim, would you stop paraphrasing 'StarTrek:Wrath Of Kahn' (the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few or the one) to justify your pro-torture stance.

    Wrong is wrong, no matter how you pretty it up. You can put frosting on dog poo and it won't suddenly become a birthday cake.

    [ Parent ]

    Do we hang him before or after the trial? (3.66 / 3) (#72)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 08:34:16 AM EST
    Should there be a trial? Is evidence necessary? How about if the we get the Dear Leader to make a video appearance at trial and he tells us that the guy is guilty.

    Is physical abuse Ok if the guy is guilty, but not Ok if the guy is innocent?

    Are only innocent people's rights worth protecting? Are you really this clueless about our justice system?

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    We are not talking about a trial (3.00 / 2) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:31:09 AM EST
    I mean where have you been???

    We are talking about obtaining information from a stone cold admitted killer who is engaged in a war on Israel and us because we have supported Israel.

    So try and concentrate and see the difference between a Quicke Mart robber and a terrorist.


    [ Parent ]

    Don't complain to me about what you wrote (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 10:54:23 AM EST
    Your exact quote:
    BTW - This is the type of person you are so concerned about protecting, and doing the type of thing he considers "right."

    Friends and classmates of a 16-year-old girl who police say was murdered by her devout Muslim father in a Toronto suburb told local media Tuesday she was killed for not wearing a hijab.

    Is physical abuse Ok when you "know" you are dealing with "a stone cold admitted killer?" When and under what circumstances did he admit to being a "killer"?

    Your answer seems to be yes.

    Is physical abuse Ok when you don't know, but "reasonably believe" you are dealing with "a stone cold killer?"

    If your answer is no, what is the difference between the two? And when is it Ok to use physical abuse to prove you are dealing "a stone cold (and soon to be admitted- soon as you are done with the enhanced interrogation techniques) killer ?"

    We see what you have become, the question is do you?

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Nice try at reframing (1.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:58:49 PM EST
    But it won't work.

    This is not about a trial. The comment was to demonstrate to Jen M some of the traits that radical Moslems exhibit, such as killing female family members who bring dishonor on the family. It is called "honor killings" and is quite widely practiced in many places in the Moslem world.

    Tell you what. You keep on worrying about people who kill their 16 year old daughters and people we know who are terrorists....

    And I will continue to worry about the 16 year old daughters and the victims of the terrorists.

    To each their own, I guess. But I know I will like me better for my choice.

    [ Parent ]

    Right now I am worried about our American values (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 08:02:58 PM EST
    and way of life and those who who foolishly and cavalierly throw it all away.

    You are just a step away from those who commit honor killings. Just a few more steps and you will be their equal.

    You are ready to commit physical violence against any person you perceive to be a "radical Moslem. "

    How are you different than they are? Because "they behead" and you "only water-board?"

    Congratulations. You have dishonored the US by refusing to stand up for our values. In the process you throw logic out the window and  soon will be as immoral as any radical terrorist.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Fool me again, please (4.33 / 6) (#8)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 11:39:42 PM EST
    why do you all believe his assessment that waterboarding is torture and not his assessment that the information obtained was highly timely and valuable?

    Because after you catch these guys lying EVERY TIME for years, there is no longer any reason to believe them if they say the sun comes up in the east.

    Because torture is torture, even if it's only, say ten or fifteen seconds of the car battery attached to your genitals.

    Because I am a patriotic American and a military veteran and I want any American who has tortured even the most despicable terrorist scum to do hard prison time.  Years and years of hard time.

    Because George W. Bush has no business advancing Al Qaeda's interests by torturing people.  I believe that the administration should work on our behalf, not on behalf of terrorists.

    Unfortunately, George W. Bush works harder on Osama's behalf than he does on behalf of the United States, and sadism is just one of the symptoms of his sociopathic depravity.  This must be the first time in American history that a president openly supported our enemies at the expense of our own country.

    [ Parent ]

    No one has to fool you (2.00 / 4) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:27:02 AM EST
    You have done that to yourself. And a you have done a very good job.

    [ Parent ]
    And here I thought (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Nowonmai on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:42:04 PM EST
    There were rules concerning flaming and trolling. tsk tsk.

    [ Parent ]
    You don't mind (4.42 / 7) (#23)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 09:12:59 AM EST
    that the president advances the cause of terrorists by torturing people.  You have a First Amendment right to that treasonous, disgusting opinion.

    I am offended to the deepest part of my soul by this anti-American, sadistic, and useless activity.

    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't believe it was (4.20 / 5) (#10)
    by Jen M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:15:25 AM EST
    just 35 seconds of waterboarding. One of the USA's official torturers conveniently left out what other things they were doing to the terrorist suspect at the same time.

    Torturers aren't believable witneses, even if they are one of the USA's official torturers. Let them go play at being human elsewhere.

    Ok, so he admits waterboarding is torture. He's capable of stating the glaringly obvious.  How nice for him.  Any other breaking news from him? Rain is wet? Dogs sniff things? Georgia has funny red dirt?

    [ Parent ]

    He also said this (1.00 / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 09:13:57 PM EST
    "What happens if we don't waterboard a person, and we don't get that nugget of information, and there's an attack," Kiriakou said. "I would have trouble forgiving myself."



    [ Parent ]
    Who said anyone didn't believe his assessment? (3.66 / 3) (#9)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:04:53 AM EST
    Quote someone. It'll be better for your reputation than lying.

    [ Parent ]
    Because that is what they do. (1.00 / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 11:09:43 PM EST
    They can't help it.

    Now let me see.... thirty five seconds...

    Yep. That's bad. No doubt about it. Yessir. Absolutely. Wow.

    Really... That long??

    For strangers wandering by... Sarcasm Alert!!

    [ Parent ]

    let's re-phrase the question (1.00 / 1) (#29)
    by wumhenry on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:08:42 PM EST
    for the nice nellies among us.
    New question: are you sure that John Kiriakou is lying or mistaken in saying that "a number of attacks, maybe dozens of attacks" were prevented thanks to the information that Zubaydah divulged after 35 seconds of waterboarding?
    Follow-on question: if you were in charge of interrogating a stonewalling al Quaeda kingpin who undoubtably is privy to information that could be used to prevent catastrophic terrorist attacks, would you try waterboarding on him if all non-coercive techniques failed? If you elected not to and 1,000 civilians were subsequently killed by bomb attacks that could have been prevented by information you might have extracted from the prisoner, would you feel good about yourself?  I.e., do you think that letting 1,000 innocent people be killed is an acceptable trade-off for avoiding the onus of subjecting a terrorist kingpin to coercion?

    Its a torturer (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Jen M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 04:43:54 PM EST
    It has nothing of interest to say.

    I'd rather listen to a pedophile.

    Just hand me the drugs over there.

    [ Parent ]

    Agreed, and well said (none / 0) (#88)
    by glanton on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 01:54:22 PM EST
    At least many pedophiles acknowledge they are sick and should not be let loose in the society at large.

    Moreover, it's an interesting comparison with regards to those pedophiles who think there is no problem with their actions.  Consider the efforts of NAMBLA and other organizations to use lawyers to obfuscate the actions in question.

    Bybee types are guilty of capital crimes and should be prosecuted and punished as such.

    [ Parent ]

    My, (5.00 / 0) (#35)
    by syinco on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 06:24:21 PM EST
    It certainly was gallant of our CIA agent to risk sacrificing himself. In his words, he tortured. But let's not get hung up on words. Maybe a legal inquiry will find differently, maybe not; this and any resultant proceedings are consequences he should now face, right?

    And perhaps as a result he goes to prison for a while. Impinging one person's life so; surely it's an acceptable tradeoff for having saved 1,000 lives. Quite courageous of our CIA agent to have made such a decision. Thank god he knew that his actions would save all those lives. Must have made that whole self-sacrifice bit, that agonizing decision, a bit easier to swallow. Imagine how hard it would've been if he'd only vaguely suspected some sort of 'useful information'. Imagine if he'd been wrong entirely ...

    [ Parent ]

    I really don't care (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Jen M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 06:31:15 PM EST
    what it thought.

    [ Parent ]
    I think that was sarcasm (none / 0) (#38)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 06:58:56 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    just a wee bit ... n/t (none / 0) (#40)
    by syinco on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:06:52 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    oops (none / 0) (#41)
    by Jen M on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 07:12:01 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Not syinco, you know better (1.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:57:01 PM EST
    when you write, even as sarcasm, this:

    Quite courageous of our CIA agent to have made such a decision.

    That is just wrong.

    Interview transcript from American Futue.

    The former intelligence officer says the interrogators' activities were carefully directed from Langley, Va., each step of the way.

    "It wasn't up to individual interrogators to decide, `Well, I'm gonna slap him.' Or, `I'm going to shake him.' Or, `I'm gonna make him stay up for 48 hours.'

    "Each one of these steps, even though they're minor steps, like the intention shake, or the open-handed belly slap, each one of these had to have the approval of the deputy director for operations," Kiriakou told ABC News.

    "The cable traffic back and forth was extremely specific," he said. "And the bottom line was these were very unusual authorities that the agency got after 9/11. No one wanted to mess them up. No one wanted to get in trouble by going overboard. So it was extremely deliberate."

    And it was always a last resort.

    He also made this point.

    "That's why so few people were waterboarded. I think the agency has said that two people were waterboarded, Abu Zubaydah being one, and it's because you really wanted it to be a last resort because we didn't want these false confessions. We didn't want wild goose chases," Kiriakou said.

    And they were faced with men like Abu Zubaydah, Kiriakou says, who held critical and timely intelligence.

    "A former colleague of mine asked him during the conversation one day, `What would you do if we decided to let you go one day?' And he said, `I would kill every American and Jew I could get my hands on...It's nothing personal. You're a nice guy. But this is who I am.'"

    In that context, at that time, Kiriakou says he felt waterboarding was something the United States needed to do.



    [ Parent ]
    You're right, (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by syinco on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 09:30:33 PM EST
    I'm playing a little loose with things.

    I admit I'm mingling the purported facts with the additional premises provided to us by our friend wumhenry, for the sake of argument.

    You could then, with that understanding, if you prefer, substitute our CIA agent's higher-ups in his stead.

    [ Parent ]

    Nope, that dog doesn't hunt (3.00 / 2) (#104)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 07:12:26 PM EST
    There is no courage here, and you know it.

    What we had was a very deliberate series of actions under tight control to capture a key terrorist and then interrogate him.

    We can argue about waterboarding if we want. I don't see it as torture, you do. But in the end...

    JOHN: But like a lot of Americans, I think I-- I'm involved in this-- this internal, intellectual battle with myself weighing the idea that water-boarding may be torture, versus the quality of information that we-- that we often get after using the water-boarding technique. And I struggle with it, I think like a lot of people do, where like I said earlier, we're Americans and we're better than this. And we shouldn't be doing this kinda thing. But at the same time, what happens if we don't water-board a person and we don't get that nugget of information, and there's an attack on a-- on a movie theater or a shopping mall or-- or in midtown Manhattan, you know, at rush hour? Then-- then what do we do? I-- I would have trouble forgiving myself.

    The issue was, and is simply this. Is waterboarding someone who we sincerely believe to have information that will save American lives, perhaps thousands, the moral thing to do?

    I say it is, because to NOT take actions to save lives is a sin of omission. Their blood would be on our hands.

    And, as I did in our last discussion on this, I agree that it is a narrow path and one that must be constantly supervised, as these were.

    [ Parent ]

    Not quite, Jim (5.00 / 0) (#108)
    by syinco on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 07:57:05 PM EST
    There is no courage here, and you know it.

    Again, sarcasm. With a purpose. Purpose served, I think.

    The issue was, and is simply this. Is waterboarding someone who we sincerely believe to have information that will save American lives, perhaps thousands, the moral thing to do?

    Close. Change "we sincerely believe to have" to "we believe may have", change "that will save" to "that may save", and change "the moral thing" to "the morally and/or legally appropriate thing" - then I'll agree that that is the issue.  Maybe not the only issue, but one that I think is going to be much more useful to discuss. Your proposition is just a special case of it that can be attended to generally or specifically.

    You might see my last post to wumhenry. Note that my series of posts was not intended to speak to the particular case that introduced this thread, but rather to object to what I think is a disingenuous way of trying to frame the debate.

    [ Parent ]

    Jim no doubt sincerely believes a lot of things (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 08:07:11 PM EST
    and if he is wrong, these things happen, c'est la guerre!

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Nope (1.00 / 1) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:27:44 AM EST
    Now, the end result may be that your information is wrong.

    But unless you believe, you shouldn't act. So no qualifiers, no hedging.

    [ Parent ]

    Necessary vs. sufficient conditions. (none / 0) (#123)
    by syinco on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:37:47 AM EST
    But unless you believe, you shouldn't act.

    Unless who believes?
    Believes what?
    How "sincerely"?
    On what basis?
    How far down the 'interrogation' spectrum are you willing to go?

    More importantly, are you saying there should be legal sanction for such actions?

    [ Parent ]

    Please don't play games. (1.00 / 1) (#141)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 04:45:06 PM EST
    You understand exactly what I am saying.

    And no. No legal sanctions. These actions are political in nature, driven by a moral imperative.

    [ Parent ]

    No, Jim, (none / 0) (#147)
    by syinco on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 06:58:57 PM EST
    I don't understand exactly what you are saying. And I'm not playing games. This is intensely interesting to me and I for one am learning something from it. I hope you don't feel like I'm wasting your time.

    I understand some of what you are saying. I understand that provided that certain conditions are satisfied, you would condone measures up to and including waterboarding as means of "interrogation". You justify this based on a qualified moral imperative to not allow the loss of innocent life when means are readily available to prevent such loss.

    Here's what I don't fully understand:

    Given that you have a moral imperative to take action that could/would save innocent American life, what do you do when all of the 'certain conditions' are satisfied but waterboarding fails to achieve the expected ends?

    What happens when those certain conditions aren't satisfied in whole, yet it's still possible that not taking action could lead directly to the deaths of innocent Americans?

    Do you think that your moral reasoning and framework should be held superior to arguably equally sound reasoning that is based on a different moral foundation? Or are you just putting forth your proposition as one view worthy of consideration?

    Are you advocating that these "interrogatory" actions be considered and/or made lawful under the Constitution, or that these actions be taken extra-Constitutionally?

    I know that you have acknowledged elsewhere that your proposition is not without problems, but having some understanding of how these problems are addressed is critical in considering what you propose.


    [ Parent ]

    Remember I said (1.00 / 0) (#149)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 09:56:47 PM EST
    that the deal was that the "CIA/government" had to believe 100% or they shouldn't "act."

    Also remember I have said that you must also believe that our cause is just.

    Now, if you have those two things and if the situation is time sensitive then all necessary measures must be taken to break the terrorist and obtain the information.

    In other words, the actions taken must be equal to the need for the information in all respects.

    I have no idea as to what you mean when you ask:

    Do you think that your moral reasoning and framework should be held superior to arguably equally sound reasoning that is based on a different moral foundation? Or are you just putting forth your proposition as one view worthy of consideration?

    First, I don't see this as a "debate." If you claim that it is morally acceptable, and I don't think you do, to let people die rather than take all necessary steps to obtain information that could save them... then I believe you are just wrong. I further believe that most people who make such claims are really engaged in sophistry for some other reason. Usually political and usually to try and make themselves feel superior.

    et al - If the shoe fits, wear it.

    And I do not believe there is an argument that can overcome my position.

    I do believe that there are some CO's who are sincere. They are welcome to their beliefs. But I cut them no slack if their actions are harmful to the group.

    I think that we already have the right to take what actions we find necessary. If some country or the UN has difficulties then my position is, "So?"

    I have no golden rule book on this. In my opinion we are talking about things that must be approved of by the President. Is there a slippery slope involved? Yes.

    But life is a risk. Sometimes risks must be taken to serve a greater good.

    [ Parent ]

    More (5.00 / 0) (#153)
    by syinco on Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 10:58:04 PM EST
    I have no idea as to what you mean when you ask:

    Do you think that your moral reasoning and framework should be held superior to arguably equally sound reasoning that is based on a different moral foundation? Or are you just putting forth your proposition as one view wo