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The Xenophobic Democratic Party?

The rationale for the doubletalk from John Edwards on drivers licenses for undocumented aliens becomes clearer. Rassmussen Reports says:

Just 19% of Democratic Primary Voters in New Hampshire believe that drivers licenses should be made available to undocumented workers. Sixty-six percent (66%) disagree. A separate survey released yesterday found that Democrats nationwide hold similar views with 68% opposing the policy.

Edwards' apparent (his answer is hard to decipher and rather nonsensical) change of heart (he favored drivers licenses for undocumented aliens in 2004) is clearly a result of political expediency.

The one candidate who spoke clearly and correctly on this issue was Barack Obama. He explained very well why offering dirvers licenses to undocumented aliens is good policy. He refused to pander to the xenophobia still present in the Democratic Party. Good for Obama. I hope he sticks to it in the face of this ugly side of the Democratic Party:

Fifty-one percent (51%) of Democratic Primary voters believe that when police pull someone over for a traffic violation, they should automatically check to see if the driver is in the country illegally. Thirty-eight percent (38%) believe that illegal immigrants discovered in this manner should be deported while 31% disagree. Half (51%) believe that such a policy invites discrimination.

It is interestng that Senator Clinton took heat on this as her initial answer was rather vacillating. She later clarified her support for the policy. My candidate, Chris Dodd, gave a clear, and atrocious, answer.

For me personally, the clear winner on this issue is Barack Obama. The clear losers are my candidate Chris Dodd and especially the doubletalking John Edwards.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Xenophobia? (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 10:10:49 AM EST
    This may be of some interest to you.

    Columnist James Pinkerton has an interesting article premised on the idea that Clinton's support for drivers licenses for illegals is "a slow hemorrhaging" that will finish her off in the general even as it's ignored during the primaries.

    He analogizes her situation to that of Michael Dukakis in 1988. Dukakis was way out ahead of Bush 41 in the national polls after having shrugged off attacks from then-Senator Al Gore on the topic of prison furloughs during the primary.

    I'll cut to the chase, but you should read it all:

    Now fast-forward to 2007. I'm long out of partisan campaign politics, but Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton reminds me a lot of Dukakis. As he was two decades ago, she's from a big state, has a lot of money, is ahead in the polls - and she's been grievously injured. This time, the issue isn't prison furloughs, but driver's licenses for illegal immigrants in her "home" state of New York. Clinton has broadly defended Gov. Eliot Spitzer's unpopular plan, even as most New Yorkers have reviled it.

    During the Philadelphia debate of Democratic hopefuls on Oct. 30, Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut, aiming from way back in the Democratic pack, took a stab at Clinton. Her position was "troublesome," he said, adding, "I think the American people are reacting to it."

    Yes, they are, but not inside the "nominating wing" of the Democratic Party, which doesn't worry about illegal immigration. So just as Gore failed to get anywhere in criticizing Dukakis 20 years ago, Dodd is not destined to get any lift from his Clinton criticism.

    But the country, of course, is bigger than a few lefty-dominated presidential primaries and caucuses. If Spitzer can't sell his licenses-for-illegals plan to New Yorkers in 2007, how can Clinton hope to defend that plan to Americans in 2008?

    This may explain why she's starting to backpedal.

    CROWLEY: If I wrote a story that said: "Absent a broad illegal immigration bill, Hillary Clinton agrees about giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants," is that correct?

    CLINTON: No. What I have said is that I support what governors are trying to do. And governors are on the front lines because of the failures to get comprehensive immigration reform.

    One of the moron-commenters at Ace's said it best:

    So she supports what the governor is trying to do but she doesn't support what he's doing.  At least not necessarily.  But she doesn't disagree with it either and she isn't going to offer any concrete objection. Curse that right wing noise machine for holding her feet to the fire like this!

    Yes xenophobia (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 10:13:59 AM EST
    And it will condemn the Republican Party to minority status for a generation.

    Dems are spineless and swing like the wind. They will embrace Latinos generally.

    Republicas can not. The GOP is the Party of Hate. Always has been. Always will be.

    As for Hillary, well, if Pinkerton thinks she is dead, then what does he think of Obama's chances?

    Clinton Derangement Syndrome strikes again.

    Parent

    On xenophobia, generally: (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 10:12:35 AM EST
    It is no more xenophobic to refuse to grant illegals the privilege of drivers licenses than it is to refuse to grant them the right to vote.

    You do yourself and your party a disservice by crying "xenophobe" every time immigration policy comes up. It is akin to those who cannot help but cry "racist" no matter the situation. It's ugly and it's untrue.

    The motives for the policy (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 10:15:04 AM EST
    are what makes it xenophobic, not the policy itself.

    You seem to have a poor grasp of the English language.

    Parent

    Who has argued that undocumented aliens should (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 10:55:48 AM EST
    have the right to vote?

    .

    Parent

    Why shouldn't they (none / 0) (#9)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:24:03 AM EST
    If they are here, working, going to school,paying taxes, and becoming part of the 'system' what could be more welcoming than granting them the right to vote. Are you afraid of giving brown skinned people a more favorable lot in the American way of life? What a racist and xenophobe...

    Parent
    Looks to me like Molly Bloom was merely (none / 0) (#12)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:40:19 AM EST
    inquiring.  

    Parent
    I gather then you favor open borders... (none / 0) (#20)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:05:40 PM EST
    Well said (none / 0) (#13)
    by space on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:44:06 AM EST
    I freely admit that there is a hell of a lot of racism against brown-skinned people in the GOP.  Hell, it is one of the primary reasons that I generally identify with the Democratic Party.

    But this idea that you are a "xenophobe" if you oppose driver's licenses for illegals is pure nonsense.

    America will deal with immigration.  It can either do it the right way (i.e. providing a clear path for legal immigration, permanent residency and citizenship while actively discouraging illegal immigration) or it can do it the wrong way (i.e. building walls, supporting rogue "Minutemen" patrolling for immigrants and posing with them like animals, and sticking immigrants in ghettoes).

    The only Democrats who hurt the party on this issue are those who cannot distinguish the former from the latter.

    Parent

    What is your rationale for (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:55:14 AM EST
    opposing drivers license for undocumented aliens?

    Explain to me why you oppose it.

    Indeed, it is SHEER NONSENSE to believe that much of the motivation against it is not a result of xenophobia is willful blindness.

    Parent

    Rationale? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by space on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:31:14 PM EST
    Well, I could go on at some length, but the short version is that I believe that giving illegal aliens drivers licenses encourages illegal immigration.

    Don't get me wrong.  I am not opposed to immigration. I generally support a vastly increased amount of legal immigration.  I also, with some provisos, support amnesty for most of the illegal immigrants who are currently here.  What I don't support is moving to a permanent system of black-market labor in this country that undermines American labor and, in the long run, prevents many illegal immigrants from escaping exploitative working conditions.

    Whether or not you agree with my views, I take offense at your knee-jerk assumption that I am motivated by xenophobia (or racism).  I also find your technique of flinging accusations first and asking questions later to be rather juvenile.

    Parent

    I don' think they are coming here for the DL's (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:42:40 PM EST
    the short version is that I believe that giving illegal aliens drivers licenses encourages illegal immigration.


    Parent
    You are too kind (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:53:10 PM EST
    That is the dumbest comment of the day.

    Parent
    Sometimes understatement is best (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:04:05 PM EST
    Sometimes not (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:12:23 PM EST
    I think this is one of those times

    Parent
    Fair enough (none / 0) (#55)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:21:20 PM EST
    I did not assume anything (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:52:35 PM EST
    I said you were being absurd. Learn to read English.

    And learn to make an actual argument.

    Are you REALLY arguing that people will illegally immigrate tothe US to GET DRIVERS LICENSES?

    I am sorry, but that is the DUMBEST thing I have ever read.

    Parent

    So someone (none / 0) (#6)
    by Wile ECoyote on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:09:32 AM EST
    who has a problem with illegal aliens but not a problem with legal aliens are xenophobic?

    Nonsequitor (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:18:00 AM EST
    To quote The Princess Bride (none / 0) (#10)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:26:56 AM EST
    I do not think the word means what you think it means...

    A xenophobe is someone who fearful of someone who is foreign. If I am fearful of an illegal alien from Bhutan but not fearful of a legal alien from Bhutan then, by definition, I am not xenophobic.

    Parent

    from Bhutan (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:51:38 AM EST
    is the key.

    The issue is not legal or illegal.

    The issue is where they are from and the color of their skin.

    President Bush proposed making the LEGAL aliens.

    Without discussing WHERE they were from, your comment was a nonsequitor.

    Now that you discussed the where, it became relevant.

    The outcry against illegal immigration from Ireland (it was huge for a good while in the 70s and 80s) escaped me.

    To put it in terms you might understand - immigration - legal or illegal - from "Bhutan" READ Mexico, Central America etc - is what is being objected to

    If the legality is your issue, then let's open the borders and make them all legal.

    Your distinction is an absurd bit of sophistry.

    Parent

    I recently learned that when Ted (none / 0) (#22)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:08:02 PM EST
    Kennedy was pushing for legalization of illegal immigrants from Ireland, there was some push back:  legalize the people from the U.S. living illegally in Ireland!  

    Ireland is one of the countries in the EU that permits all legal EU residents to immigrate to and work in Ireland.  Huge immigration, especially, at present, from Poland.  But the Polish immigrants aren't all interested in doing the jobs the Irish don't want to do anymore; once they get established in the low-paying grunt jobs, they moving into technology, etc.  

    Parent

    Nice change (none / 0) (#26)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:22:59 PM EST
    You said it was xenophobic, not me. Now you're changing it to mean Mexico and Central America. I'll grant you that distinction, but you are modifying your initial argument. Don't call my argument absurd because you weren't clear.

    As for the color of their skin, most Bhutanese have dark skin as well and are 'people of color'.

    You say that all immigration, legal and illegal, is what is being objected to. Really? Links please from presidential contenders as well as other current government officials.

    Are there xenophobes and racists objecting to all forms of dark skinned immigration whether legal or illegal? Of course. But that doesn't mean that all people against ILLEGAL immigration are xenophobes and racists.

    That's why I would rather have open borders as it is a way to get away from these ridiculous personal attacks and arguments which solve nothing.

    Or, admit that the government has a right to make and enforce common sense (yeah, right) distinctions of benefits and services to illegal and legal immigrants.

    Parent

    Excuse me (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:50:43 PM EST
    Are you saying it is NOT xenophobic because it is only targetted at certain immigrants?

    Really?


    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#61)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:58:17 PM EST
    If it is not at all immigrants then, by definition, it can't be xenophobic. Racist? probably except for light skinned Hispanics.

    Xenophobic, no.

    My point is that you call those who disagree with your position racists and xenophobes which doesn't go to the substance of the issues.

    Again, do you support open borders for everyone around the world?


    Parent

    Immigration is complex & easily demagogued (none / 0) (#8)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:18:46 AM EST
    too often leading to "solutions" that harm more than they help.

    And yes many of the people on the illegal immigration band wagon are xenophobes and bigots.

    Parent

    do you favor an open border policy... (1.00 / 1) (#11)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:28:31 AM EST
    with no barriers to access to employment, education, drivers licenses, voting, etc...?

    Parent
    even (none / 0) (#14)
    by Wile ECoyote on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:45:14 AM EST
    if they havae no problem with legal immigration?

    Parent
    your two comments are instructive (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:52:32 AM EST
    It is the POLICY you would object to - not the legality.

    Parent
    Are you talking to me? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Wile ECoyote on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:47:44 PM EST
    I asked if people who had a problem with illegal aliens but not with legal aliens were xenophobic.  

    Parent
    Surely you can see how easily this complex issue (none / 0) (#17)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:53:10 AM EST
    is demogogued- e.g. headscratcher above.

    Parent
    Why (none / 0) (#18)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 11:55:08 AM EST
    should there be a difference between legal and illagal immigration? If you want to be here why should the government determine who is here and how they are here?

    Parent
    So you DO favor open borders! (none / 0) (#21)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:07:23 PM EST
    Do you favor any immigration laws? (none / 0) (#28)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:27:10 PM EST
    Heh. (none / 0) (#45)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:02:58 PM EST
    "Immigration is complex & easily demagogued"

    Irony, thy name is Molly Bloom.

    "Xenophobe"
    "Racist"

    No demagoguery here!

    Parent

    Its not demogogory to point out that demogogues (none / 0) (#47)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:07:11 PM EST
    are appealing to xenophobia and racism. Following your logic, MLK would have been severely limited in denouncing segregation.

    Parent
    Get a dictionary. (none / 0) (#51)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:12:55 PM EST
    MLK wasn't appealing to the prejudices of his audience when he denounced segregation.

    BTD is explicitly appealing to Lefty knee-jerk prejudice when they hear the word "xenophobic."

    Unlike Dadler, who just posted a policy argument against drivers licenses for illegals, BTD simply said "those xenophobes" and strongly implied that "you wouldn't want to be known as a xenophobe, would you?" That's demagoguery.

    Parent

    Knee jerk (none / 0) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:15:39 PM EST
    Funny coming from you

    Certainly there is NO basis for me to believe that xenophobia is involved.

    EVERYONE knows that the US has NO HISTORY WHATSOEVER of xenophobia.

    You are so ridiculous sometimes.


    Parent

    Indeed, (none / 0) (#58)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:35:03 PM EST
    the US once had slavery, and stuff, therefore, ipso facto, those who don't support granting illegal aliens DL's are xenophobic. Que comico!


    Parent
    Don't need a dictionary, just need to apply (none / 0) (#56)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:24:01 PM EST
    your logic.

    Parent
    Thom Hartmann (none / 0) (#23)
    by chemoelectric on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:13:28 PM EST
    Interestingly, Air America Radio's Thom Hartmann disfavors licensing for undocumented aliens. In defense of this viewpoint he provides irrelevent, indeed frivolous, analogies and totally irrelevant facts. So he's no help at all, and there must be many other Democrats using dimwittery to justify what must, in the end, be nothing more than a gut feeling (and not necessarily a pleasant one).

    Indeed (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:49:10 PM EST
    The Xenophobic Democratic Party in action.

    Parent
    Silliness (none / 0) (#24)
    by jarober on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:14:08 PM EST
    let me translate Big-Tentism:

    "The majority should get what it wants with the Iraq war, because I agree with the majority.  On issues I don't agree with the majority on - like this one - they can go hang"

    YOu have misunderstood the argument (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:48:30 PM EST
    Dems should end the war because they SAY they want to AND there is no political probelm as the majority wants to.

    IF Dems are against immigration and in favor of xenophobia, then they can follow their principles safely and immigrant bash according to the polls.

    That is what the GOP is doing.

    OF course, the long term effects are political poison for the GOP.

    Parent

    DLs are not the answer (none / 0) (#25)
    by po on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:21:12 PM EST
    I guess I just don't understand the blowback here against someone believing that it is not proper to provide DL to individuals in this country illegally / without proper documentation.

    There's talk about the provision targeting Latinos, but the truth is that there are a lot of nationalities / races living in the US who arrived here illegally or overstay their visa and remain here illegally.  While some opponents of the measure may just dislike Latinos, I don't believe it is fair to say that resistance to extending the privilege of driving to those present in the US under less than full legal status is because most of the intended recipients are believed (for whatever real or imaginary reason) to be Latino.

    I see no reason to round up all these good people and send them home, but I also don't see a reason to provide them with DLs.  Further, I think the whole debate only benefits the xenophobes, racists, etc.  

    Comprehensive immigration reform and enforcing laws already on the books against employers employing illegal workers would go a lot further than one state issuing DLs to those in this country under less than legal circumstances.

    Needing an Other to campaign against as well as (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:40:45 PM EST
    a distraction from the Bush/Republican debacle known as Iraq, the GOP is not going to propose/enforce

    Comprehensive immigration reform and enforcing laws already on the books against employers employing illegal workers would go a lot further than one state issuing DLs to those in this country under less than legal circumstances.

    Much better from their point of view to propose building an unworkable fence (GOP Pork!) and stir up hatred of "the other".  

    Did you catch the GOP robo calls in Kentucky from Pat Boone ?

    "Pat Boone, warning that as a Christian he is concerned that Democratic nominee Steve Beshear, who has been way ahead in the polls, will work for "every homosexual cause."

    "Now do you want a governor who'd like Kentucky to be another San Francisco?" Boone asks. "Please re-elect Ernie Fletcher."

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the GOP is just updating the Southern Strategy with these issues.

    Parent

    Good point. Comparable to all those (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:45:53 PM EST
    "marriage is between a man and a woman" ballot initiatives in 2000 election.  Get out the base.

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#27)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:26:34 PM EST
    Most of the illegal immigrants I run into in South Florida are from Brazil and Canada. Overstaying visas and the such...

    I always feel bad for the poor saps who play by the rules and are left waiting to come to this country. To hell with the rules - jump in line and break laws!!! Or get rid of the rules..

    Parent

    International Herald Tribune recently (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:40:14 PM EST
    had an article about Cubans coming to area near Cancun as opposed to trying to reach Florida.  Then the immigrants just walk across the border, are treated as political refugees by border patrol of U.S., and are hence legally in U.S.  Some Mexicans are getting the idea; practicing Cuban accent and boning up on their stories of deprivation and persecution in Cuba. Smart move.

    Parent
    You write (none / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:46:04 PM EST
    "I see no reason to round up all these good people and send them home, but I also don't see a reason to provide them with DLs."

    I ca only concluse you have little kowledge about the issue.

    Are you at all familiar with the arguments in favor of them?

    Parent

    Si, senor (none / 0) (#42)
    by po on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:56:07 PM EST
    This is a much more complex issue that you are letting on.  Immigration is a federal problem which the states are forced to deal with.  The federal government does not issue DLs (not yet anyway); the states do.  A state should not be allowed to issue a DL to someone not in the nation legally.  That there are millions of such people is irrelevant.  It's really that simple.  

    The public safety argument batted around is actually a 2 edged sword.  If I'm here illegally I certainly don't want the government to know my true name or address, I might get rounded up.   And probably will (no good deed goes unpunished you know).  Insurance, yeah, whatever.  Even citizens get around that.  

    So enlighten me, Big Tent Democrat (including, apparently those who should be standing outside the tent waiting to get in) why should a state give a DL to someone in the country, thus the state, illegally?  What good will it serve?  What  harm will it eliminate?  What is the end-game?

    Parent

    Contradicciones (none / 0) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:11:25 PM EST
    This is a much more complex issue that you are letting on. . . . A state should not be allowed to issue a DL to someone not in the nation legally. . .   It's really that simple . . .

    Que comico!

    Parent

    There's an inherent absurdity (none / 0) (#39)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 12:52:02 PM EST
    in people being in the country illegally and yet being extended legal privileges (as opposed to basic legal/natural/human rights).

    You can see the problem in how it's phrased: "giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants" i.e., Those crazy liberals always wanting to give things to people who don't deserve them.

    I know nuance is not something politicians can do these days, but to support this policy without harming themselves with xenophobic voters Dems have to present it as balancing conflicting societal needs, not as a good in itself. Hillary seems to be the one who's most trying to do this, but even her statements are consistently poorly expressed.

    What it comes down to is maintaining some minimum standards of competence for drivers, which benefits everyone on the roads every day, versus upholding immigration laws that are being massively flouted anyway and not being adjusted to deal with reality because of cynical political calculation.

    When problems are caused by cynical incompetence at the federal level, they have to be dealt with pragmatically one way or another at more local levels.

    PLEEEEEEEEASE (none / 0) (#44)
    by po on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:02:30 PM EST
    "maintaining some minimum standards of competence for drivers" is such a silly, silly reason to back this.  Do you know what it takes to get a DL in most states?  And surely you drive on the roads, no?  Minimum standards of competence?  A DL today is a fee (revenue for the state) and a way for state to know who and where you are.

    No, this is a political game to stir up certain constituencies regarding immigration.  In the end, its just red meat for a bunch of people who would otherwise keep watching TV.

    Parent

    I take it then (none / 0) (#53)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:18:10 PM EST
    that you'd do away with all written and road tests, minimum age limits, restrictions on new drivers, vision tests, experience with different types of  vehicles, loss of licence for drunk driving, etc. and just get on with collecting fees from everyone.

    PLEEEEEEEEASE

    Parent

    No, no, no, no, no . . . (none / 0) (#57)
    by po on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:28:52 PM EST
    that's not what you should take away from my comments.  I was merely pointing out that the standard to get a DL is exceedingly low.  As it should be.  But, on basic requirement is that you be a citizen of the USofA to get a DL from one of the 50 states or the US territories.  You, as an American, can't have 2 DLs from 2 different states.  Nor can you have a DL from a state and a DL from some foreign country.  You are required to surrender one to get the other.  There also, not surprisingly, are citizenship coupled with domicile requirements (i.e. you must be a citizen of the US and intend to stay in X state -- be domiciled there).  You can only have one country.  This country can be different that where you intend to stay, so long as you do so . . . gasp, legally.  

    If caught without a DL, an undocumented person would be faced with the same penalties as any other person caught driving without a DL.  Most states are not turning illegals over to the Feds when they arrest them on minor traffic offenses (certain jurisdictions excepted of course).  That's a product of the status.

    I'm not defending the crappy situation that is US immigration reality at the moment.  I just don't see how a state DL changes much of anything at all.  And, for all it's good intentions, I see all too clearly the abuse that will come down the road.  Once the wingnuts think through the problem, they'll probably support those DLs, if only to get the list.

    Parent

    I take away from your comments (none / 0) (#63)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 02:07:13 PM EST
    that you don't know what you're talking about.

    But, on basic requirement is that you be a citizen of the USofA to get a DL from one of the 50 states or the US territories.

    Nonsense. You don't have to be a citizen to get a DL. There are no citizenship requirements, just legal work residency requirements.

    And it's upon residency in a jurisdiction that you have to surrender a DL from another jurisdiction.

    Parent

    Absolutement (none / 0) (#67)
    by rufus138 on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 04:41:15 PM EST
    That's right. In fact, I've been turned around at the Canadian border before for only having my license with me because it doesn't prove citizenship.

    Parent
    My bad (none / 0) (#68)
    by po on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 08:11:17 PM EST
    You don't have to be a citizen, least not in my state, to have obtain a DL.  But, you must either be a citizen or be in the country legally and be able to prove it.  My bad, but it doesn't really change my analysis or thoughts on any state providing DLs to folks who are not here legally.  


    Parent
    See my initial point (none / 0) (#69)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 08:23:08 PM EST
    re the pragmatic need to balance that reality with the benefits brought by ensuring minimum standards of driver competence, not to mention the protection for others if they're able to get insurance.

    Parent
    Apparently, (none / 0) (#43)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Immigrant Bashing Will Be The DNC Campaign Issue In 2008


    So... (none / 0) (#48)
    by Dadler on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:07:44 PM EST
    ...it's better to have them unlicesed and unknown?  Better that when auto accidents happen, that we have the least amount of information possible?

    Those who oppose this seem to be living in denial.  As if they believe to deny licenses here means they are denying the undocumented another big toe-hold in society, when in reality they are merely driving the problem further underground.  Increased marginalization is not an answer, obviously.
     

    It's got nothing to do (none / 0) (#54)
    by po on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:21:04 PM EST
    with denying anyone a big toe hold in society.  They're here.  We should deal with them.  But, this does nothing to deal with the problem.  At best, it address one minor, insignificant result of the problem.  

    Me, being an attorney by profession, find this proposal to give undocumented / illegal individuals DLs to be absurd on a number of legal levels.  Domicile.  Citizenship.  Privileges v. Rights.  Legality.  

    If you think that someone in this country illegally who has been issued a DL is more likely than one without an issued DL to stick around at the scene of the accident, you, sir, are living in a dream world.  the same fear of deportation will still exist.  I reiterate, the list that this will provide the government, ultimately, will be used against those who are issued these 'special' DLs.  You can bank on that one.

    Parent

    Reading your comments po.... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:55:36 PM EST
    I think you're right on the mark.  This whole license thing is retarded.

    As a citizen who lives outside the law a little bit, I think if I was an undocumented resident who could face deportation I wouldn't set foot near a government agency and give them my name and address.  No freakin' way.  Especially not with ICE knocking down doors in the middle of the night here in Nassau County, NY.

    I still think the insurance industry is behind this, they must have their claws in Spitzer.  They're fishing for new mandated by law customers.

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    I don't see that kdog. (none / 0) (#62)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:58:41 PM EST
    Having a DL does not mean you have to buy insurance.

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    True.... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 02:09:10 PM EST
    but you need proof of insurance to register your car and get plates.  And you need a license to buy insurance...at least anywhere I ever went for a quote asked for my license number.

    You can get away with driving without a license pretty easily...getting away with driving an unregistered car with no plates or phony plates is a lot harder.

    Parent

    unlicensed drivers in NY right now, and that you need a DL to get insurance, and that you need insurance to get a car registered and plated, then there are millions of unlicensed people getting away with driving unregistered/unplated cars in NY right now.

    If their cars are registered/plated, then either your understanding of the process is flawed or the system is easily gamed. (And being allowed to get DL's won't stop anyone from gaming the system in the future. Insurance policies aren't cheap.)

    I'm interested in seeing an ins co angle to this as well (outside of their hopeful thought that more licensed drivers = more insurance policies), but I don't think this is it.

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    There are lots of ways to game the system.... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 03:10:14 PM EST
    Most common is having a friend or family member with a clean dl register and insure your car in their name...this is very common even among citizens with no licenses or bad driving records.  My moms did it for me when I was under 25 and the rates I was getting quoted were insane.

    Stolen plates is another...but you're begging to get caught these days with the frequency of cops on the roadways running plate numbers.  If you can get away with that for any period of time my hats off to ya.

    Besides...I think most of the unlicensed in the millions number bandied about are suspended licenses, not people who never had a license.  The suspended license folks can be driving in legally registered vehicles and lapsed/revoked insurance.

    Parent

    Interestingly enough (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 01:55:23 PM EST
    you can drive legally in the US with a Mexican or Canadian DL, and therefore wouldn't need a US DL:
    In the USA, the Driver License Agreement (DLA) is a new compact [...]The goals of the DLA are to require each state to honor licenses issued by other member states; [...]In addition[...]the Provinces/Territories of Canada and the States/Federal District of Mexico can participate in the DLA.
    I would assume that owning a vehicle and therefore having a DL is much more common in the US than in Mexico or Central America such that many illegal immigrants do not have DL's.

    They can? (none / 0) (#70)
    by Patrick on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 10:49:14 AM EST
    I admit, I haven't seen any legal updates to support that, and as it stands today, w/o a passport & visa, an international driver's license, or DL from another country is not valid...At least in California.  

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    Dunno. Good point. (none / 0) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 11:18:45 AM EST
    All I know is what wikipedia said.

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    From what I understand (none / 0) (#72)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 12:00:44 PM EST
    your DL is supposed to be from wherever your legal permanent residence is considered to be.

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