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Tuesday Open Thread

I'm sitting in the media room at the courthouse in D.C., laptop set up on the table in front of me, my Starbucks in hand. Judith Miller is today's big witness, but first we have to finish David Addington, Cheney's former counsel and current chief of staff. I'm going to watch Addington from here, and then go in the courtroom for Miller.

Marcy will be live-blogging the testimony at Firedoglake.

Here's a place for you to discuss the news of day or whatever else is on your mindws.

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    This kind of yellow journalism has (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:39:53 AM EST
    been going arouind for a few years, with variations on the same story. It often includes the mention of Walter Reed Hospital, and an antiwar protestor spitting on an Iraq war vet. Now the vet is one-legged. My own google searches produce nothing from Fox News about it that I can find, but here is a Free Republic unsubstantiated variation on it from November 27, 2005, and here is another unsubtantiated one from October 2004.

    IMO, it is simply a cowardly whisper campaign. A lie. Once more being spread here, and again with no sustantiation.

    digby spot on spit (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:42:06 AM EST

    Even more interesting is that the Beacon coincidentally shot some footage of Sparling standing with the Freepers. If there was spit lobbed across the wide chasm between the two opposing groups, it was an award winning projectile gob....
    digby


    What I do know is that the NY Times article was so badly reported and so misleading as to be a lie. By leaving out the fact that he spoke at an anti-war rally, it appeared as if he spoke at his own rally. And it made it sound as if the protestors walking by were provoking him, when, in fact, he'd been allowed to speak to them and was treated respectfully. It was the counter-protestors across the street --- his friends the Freepers --- who were the disruptive ones. The NY Times got it exactly backwards.

    That they didn't bother to even google Sparling's name, where they would have found that he's something of a rightwing celebrity for his tales of victimization at the hands of terrible lefties, is journalistic malpractice.

    They need to correct this story. And they need to look into Sparling. I suspect he's being used by a bunch of creepy Freepers and swiftboat professionals. The man gave his leg. He shouldn't be exploited by these jerks on top of it.

    And if he's just making stuff up, the fact that he's a wounded veteran does not excuse it.

    ....
    Update II: Apparently Sparling has also made appearances at Ollie North's "Freedom Alliance"  concerts. He's a certified minor wingnut celebrity.....

    ....
    Update II: Thanks to Julia for alerting me to this. Sparling has been in the news since 2005 when the army used him for PR purposes. Interesting.....

    ...Sparling appears to be some sort of US Army Zelig with ties to white supremecists who is becoming the poster boy for veterans who feel beseiged by dirty hippies.



    Parent
    Thanks Squeaky... (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by desertswine on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:36:33 AM EST
    Most edifying. Apparently the guy's a pro.

    Parent
    Of course he's a pro. (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:45:09 PM EST
    After all, it would take a pro to bamboozle Jim, no? ;-)

    Parent
    HaHa... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by desertswine on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:48:55 PM EST
    "That is one magic loogie!"

    - Jerry Seinfeld


    Parent

    Squeaky (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:07:39 AM EST
    As some of the members here on the Left like to tell me...

    Denial is a river in Egypt.

    BTW - I love Digby's back handed compliment of the spit job.

    I love it. Caught and hosted by the Newspaper of Leakers.


    Parent

    Off Base (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:57:23 AM EST
    There is not even a remote whiff of a backhanded compliment of the spit job as you put it.

    First off digby makes a very good case that this is another Rovian spin job that has no basis in reality.

    Second digby is not vindictive or mean. S/he is also a very straight shooter who I have never seen make passive aggressive jabs.

    I think I speak for the vast majority of Americans when I say that we do not blame the soldiers and marines for what is happening and harbor no ill will toward them. We hold the political leaders who sent them over to that meat grinder responsible as is our right and responsibility as citizens.

    They need to correct this story. And they need to look into Sparling. I suspect he's being used by a bunch of creepy Freepers and swiftboat professionals. The man gave his leg. He shouldn't be exploited by these jerks on top of it.

    And if he's just making stuff up, the fact that he's a wounded veteran does not excuse it.

    and this:


    In this instance you had a budding rightwing operative who sat with the Vice President's wife at the State of the Union address appearing with a group that hanged Jane Fonda in effigy in the middle of a peaceful protest march. The signs they held were violent, crude and purposefully provocative. Yet the mainstream media, in looking for some frisson of 60's street violence, reports it as if the protesters are the provacateurs. They had the story and they completely missed it.

    digby

    Parent

    Edger - He was on this morning. (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:10:12 AM EST
    Google? Whisper?

    The guy was on TV this morning. I saw him myself. He was on about 7:45AM CST.

    And he was totally believeable. He said he was in the counter demonstration this weekend.

    Given the vitrol around here, why do you think that some anti-war freak wouldn't spit on him?

    Stay alert and stay informed.. not to mention fai and balanced.

    ;-)

    Parent

    I'll bite.... (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:30:47 AM EST
    If the vet was spat on unprovoked by a demonstrator...that is disgusting behavior I have no problem denouncing.  There are idiots who can't control their temper on both sides of the war debate.

    Is it possible that since he was part of a counter-demonstration that he did something to provoke the spat?  Is it possible that the two were screaming at each other and some spittle was exchanged by accident?  Did the "fair and balanced" reporter question the vet on either scenario?

    Parent

    kdog (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:35:48 AM EST
    kdog - What could a one legged vet do that could justify someone spitting at him, on him, or near him?

    Remember the cries of "we support troops?"

    I am sad that you try and find justification for the acts of someone who would do such.


    Parent

    Well...... (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:11:36 AM EST
    I didn't condone or justify it, I wondered whether the reporter asked any questions of the vet to uncover why it happened....did they?  I simply find it hard to believe it's as clear cut as a rabid anti-war demonstrator spitting on a random amputee vet.  

    I might be tempted to spit on somebody who said something awful about my mother, regardless of how many limbs they are missing...for example.

    Parent

    Kdog (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:31:59 AM EST
    Why just spit? Why not take his crutch away and hit him with it!

    Just kidding, of course.

    What I find interesting is all this denial that someone could do such a thing.

    Parent

    Seriously (none / 0) (#107)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:36:37 PM EST
    Did the "Fox and Friends" team ask any questions at all?

    Parent
    Joshua Sparling on "Fox and Friends" (none / 0) (#17)
    by waterlily46 on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:48:32 AM EST

    re. Joshua Sparling and the spitting incident, as featured on that ludicrous morning show on FNC, "Fox and Friends," with its rabid, perky, hyperventilating hosts:

    He deserves our love and support, but watch the video and read online about what "Fox and Friends" and Michelle Malkin and others are doing to this poor man, who are clearly using him when what he needs is good care and respect and not being used to further a worn-out agenda. (It's not worth engaging with anything related to FNC re. the antiwar march, which the photos and reports show was an upbeat crowd full of families and very young people (babies, teens, etc.) and very old people and so many in between--it just isn't going to work to try to paint it as some fringe, unruly event.)

    from Wikipedia (Sparling's been getting attention for a while now), but re. the spitting incident,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Sparling:

    Spit

    On 27 January 2007, at an antiwar protest at Washington DC, Sparling claimed that a passing protestor may have spit near him, according to the New York Times. [6]

        Later, as antiwar protesters passed where he and his group were standing, words were exchanged and one of the antiwar protestors spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling; he spit back.

    Supportive Publicity

    Joshua's struggles have been featured by numerous media outlets and weblogs supportive of the Iraq War effort. Media coverage of the death wish triggered an outpouring of over 20,000 cards and gifts to wounded soldiers at Walter Reed. Joshua was championed by Fox News commentator Sean Hannity who gave him gifts of several movies and an Ipod. [7] He has also appeared and spoken at Oliver North's "Freedom Alliance" concerts. [8] Additionally, Joshua and his parents were invited to and attended the 2006 State of the Union Address as guests of J. Dennis Hastert. [9]

    Controversy

    Regarding the "Spitting Incident" No "spitter" was identified (other than by his own admission, Joshua Sparling) and it is unclear whether the Times reporter actually witnessed the alleged incident.



    Parent
    waterlilly46 (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:20:28 AM EST
    You know, the crowd may have been filled with super wonderful misguided people who want only for us to get out of Iraq and turn the ME over to the terrorist.

    Okay, I'll buy that.

    Now. Why can't you but that it also had at least one as*hole who lost control and did what the NYT says.. you know... spit at, near or on a disabled vet.

    And why can't you just condemn the act????


    Parent

    A little consistency, please (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by syinco on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:59:53 AM EST
    This is just too funny, coming as it does right on the heels of all of yesterday's twisted rationalizations to avoid even the slightest condemnation of the U.S.!!!

    Someone appears to have been wronged.  On the surface, after first seeing the report, I'd say the guy's got a valid gripe.  But there may be more to it than meets the eye.  It's worth asking questions before we jump to conclusions, is it not?  Isn't this how you would guide us Lefties to think and behave?  

    You are just in fine form today. :)

    Parent

    syinco (none / 0) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 07:33:51 AM EST
    Given the people involved and the NYT article, I believe the guy.

    You may not.

    BTW - Same position. In both cases I said that the other group caused the action.


    Parent

    Jim (none / 0) (#124)
    by syinco on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 09:03:32 AM EST
    You want that probing questions be asked only in certain cases.

    I want them asked consistently.

    So your whole point yesterday was that Arar's mistreatment would not have happened were it not for Canada's mistakes?  Excuse me, but how effing pointless is that?  Canada had already accepted responsibility for its role.  

    No, your point seemed to go well beyond that.  And If you want to resume that discussion, you can address my last response to you.  

    Parent

    yesterday? (none / 0) (#125)
    by syinco on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 09:13:15 AM EST
    yesterday, two days ago, it's all a blur ...

    Parent
    anti-spitting (none / 0) (#48)
    by waterlily46 on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:06:29 PM EST
    I am absolutely opposed to spitting at an injured Iraq War vet and anybody at all ever. It's vulgar and dehumanizing.

    But I still hate that "Fox and Friends" and others are using him too--but c'est la vie. We hear about a disturbing incident from one man and will take his word for it, but then we hear not a bit of truth about the entire march we were a part of. So frustrating. One unfortunate incident--and what about the hundreds of thousands of inspiring accounts by regular, goodhearted Americans?

    Parent

    waterlily46 (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 02:08:38 PM EST
    Thank you for your belated condemnation.

    but then we hear not a bit of truth about the entire march we were a part of.

    Do you march to be idolized, or do you march for a cause?

    Parent

    belatedness (none / 0) (#79)
    by waterlily46 on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 04:44:13 PM EST
    Belated but really just busy here in Snowland today. Can only check in now and then.

    I think a lot of others feel like I do, but I really can't say. But to answer your question, which I take to be sincere: I march to make sure my voice, through my physical presence, is included in an important message to Congress and also to be among strangers like family who love this country and want it to be better. Hugely uplifting. Such a good long American tradition--civic action upon the streets. In this case a nonviolent protest against a terrible war--by way of a 500-mile trip each way aboard a crowded bus, expenses and all. Hardly glamorous but thoroughly good.

    Parent

    waterlilly46 (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 07:43:28 AM EST
    Then I ask you the same questions I have asked others.

    If you get what you want, what plans do you support to protect the Iraqi citizens we leave behind? Do you understand that hundreds of thousands are likely to die in a war between the Sunis, Shia and Kurds?

    What plans do you have to keep Iran from taking over the ME, developing nukes and attacking us and Israel?

    Do you think a purely defensive position can protect the US from attack?

    Since OBL has said that even if we leave that we must stop Moslems from doing what they want, world wide, what rights are you willing to give up when we negotiate with them?

    The rights for gays and lesbians to live?

    Women's rights?

    Freedom of religion?

    The right to assemble and protest?

    Do you remember, or do you even know, that millions died in SE Asia after we left South Vietnam?? Do you think that those who protested against the war bear some responsibility for those deaths?

    Parent

    jimakaPPJ (none / 0) (#129)
    by waterlily46 on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:35:33 AM EST
    Don't be afraid to trust that most of the people posting here are bright and curious and rigorous and understand how complex the world is.

    Many thanks for engaging--


    Parent

    Never satisfied (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:09:18 PM EST
    And why can't you just condemn the act????

    You asked one of us to condemn the act and I did. Now you want everyone to condemn it, even if it is not clear that it even happened.

    Spinmeister at work? or sincere question?

    Obviously the former.

    Parent

    Jim (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:39:17 PM EST
    You support the incineration of children. You protest too much and your persistent whining is just so infantile. STFU already. The media has given up on it. Why don't you?

    And if you expect ME to condemn it for YOU, I would not stoop so low.

    But I guess someone in your position needs ANY morsel of news that might allow you to get even with all of us prescient lefties. We tried.

    Et al, stop coddling Jim with your conDemnations. We have NOTHING to answer for.

    Che (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 01:52:56 PM EST
    You write:

    You support the incineration of children...STFU

    Such a sweetheart you are. And since you speak of children,I'm sure you wouldn't want to leave this out.

    He was a boy, couldn't have been much older than 12, maybe 14.....'What did you do?' We asked horrified. 'I tried to defend my papa,' gasped the bloodied boy. 'I tried to keep these Communist sons of b**tches form murdering him! But they sent him to the firing squad.'"

    Soon Che's goons came back, the rusty steel door opened and they yanked the valiant boy out of the cell. "We all rushed to the cell's window that faced the execution pit," recalls Mr. San Martin....

    And then we saw Che unholstering his pistol. It didn't seem possible. But Che raised his pistol, put the barrel to the back of the boy's neck and blasted. The shot almost decapitated the young boy.

    I think perhaps you should consider your position in any criticism about the treatment of children.

    Parent

    RE: We have NOTHING to answer for. (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 02:02:10 PM EST
    Absolutely, Che.

    Oh, and always be honest with what you say about Bush and his supplicants.

    Parent

    Disabled Iraqi war vet spit on during demo (1.00 / 1) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 08:32:03 AM EST
    FNC interviewed a Iraqi vet this morning who said that he was threatened and spit on by Left wing protestors over the weekend.

    He is stationed at Walter Reed Hospital were he is recovering from wounds and had a leg removed in 11/06. He'll be there another year for further medical treatment.

    Wow. Spitting on a one-legged war vet. Oh well, they knew he couldn't chase them down.

    Guess they got tired of speaking truth to power and decided to show their courage another way.

    He gets around (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:45:21 AM EST
    Joshua Sparling seems to find every uncivil war protester on the planet.  This is just the latest of his appearances in the news, and the same thing seems to happen to him everywhere he goes, even though it doesn't seem to happen to any OTHER veterans.  Maybe it's something HE said.

    Does the fact that he was invited to address the anti-war marchers (and apparently did so) mitigate the claim?

    Does the fact that his father was a guest of the Cheneys at the SOTU (before the alleged incident) raise any suspicion?  Are there any credible witnesses to this incident?

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#18)
    by glanton on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:49:08 AM EST
    Repack, I didn't know any of that background.  And I'll bet this recent Fox Interview didn't exactly shine light on it either.

    Given this info, it's worth wondering whether he's out there provoking people.  Still pretty crass to spit on someone though.  

    Parent

    RePack (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:10:52 AM EST
    You write:

    This is just the latest of his appearances in the news,

    Well, since we know he has lost a leg in combat, I would say he isn't shy.

    Parent

    What' s the real story, Jim? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Kitt on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:22:55 AM EST
    This isn't a story; it's an incident involving ONE young man. It has not been ongoing; it is not occurring frequently; it's not even occurring rarely.

    I just happened to catch that last night with Mr. Sparling. I didn't find him credible at all. There's something more to this and Mr. Sparling. There's a reason, he's being trotted out & around.


    Parent

    Kitt - What the NYT saidL (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 02:48:49 PM EST
    Here is what the NYT said.

    There were a few tense moments, however, including an encounter involving Joshua Sparling, 25, who was on crutches and who said he was a corporal with the 82nd Airborne Division and lost his right leg below the knee in Ramadi, Iraq. Mr. Sparling spoke at a smaller rally held earlier in the day at the United States Navy Memorial, and voiced his support for the administration's policies in Iraq.

    Later, as antiwar protesters passed where he and his group were standing, words were exchanged and one of the antiwar protestors spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling; he spit back.

    Capitol police made the antiwar protestors walk farther away from the counterprotesters.



    Parent
    OFF TOPIC TROLL POST (none / 0) (#77)
    by Sailor on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 04:29:29 PM EST
    ppj supports a serial liar ... gee, what a surprise.

    I have proof that ppj called for the deaths of American leaders.

    But Jeralyn has asked me not to post it ... again.

    Parent

    Maybe it did happen (none / 0) (#13)
    by glanton on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:36:00 AM EST
    If it did, then the spitter's an a&*hole.  

    I love how you spin it, Jim:

    Wow. Spitting on a one-legged war vet. Oh well, they knew he couldn't chase them down.

    Guess they got tired of speaking truth to power and decided to show their courage another way.

    Hey there ho there, suddenly instead of one person we have a "they": an implication that this incident is somehow representative of something.  

    But wait!  I wonder of Fox framed it the same way?  On secopnd thought, I don't wonder.  Well done, Jim.  You would make your media masters proud. Stay alert, and stay with Fox.

    :-O

    Parent

    "disable Iraqi war vet spit on . . ." (none / 0) (#2)
    by waterlily46 on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 08:57:33 AM EST
    We marched alongside Iraq War vets, and this crowd of close to a half-million was made up of parents pushing strollers with small children inside, old people in wheelchairs, veterans of present and past wars, middle-schoolers, on and on. The FNC report is hardly credible, of course. Please don't believe fabricated tales by FNC--harms truth badly.

    As someone over at Media Matters wrote.... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Kitt on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:33:00 AM EST
    "What protester in his right mind would taunt an amputee vet at an anti-war rally with the media looking on? Or did Mr. Sparling taunt the protesters?"

    Why would anyone at an anti-war rally/march spit on a veteran who had not only served in the very war being protested, but obviously had been injured and maimed?

    Just another distraction from what's really going on.

    Parent

    waterlilly46 (1.00 / 1) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:03:26 AM EST
    You're going to have to do better than that.

    The guy was on TV and he said what he said.

    And he was totally believeable.

    Frankly, he is more credible than you claiming that FNC is making things up.

    Parent

    walter66 (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:26:13 AM EST
    Ah, so now we have this:

    Later, as antiwar protesters passed where he and his group were standing, words were exchanged and one of the antiwar protestors spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling; he spit back.

    So now we have the claim made that the anti-war wonderful kind person who supports the troops only "spit at the ground near Mr. Sparling."

    As the good Colonel said on Mash, "Horse hockey."

    If you spit at the ground near me during a hostile encounter, I'm gonna be mad as hel*. And frankly, Sparling said that he was spit "on."

    Either way, what a tremendous show of disrespect for a man who has lost a leg in defense of his country.

    You folks on the Left must be proud to be associated with people that do such things. How uttertly definitive.

    Parent

    Jim quit spinning it, and unwad thy panties (none / 0) (#16)
    by glanton on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:45:38 AM EST
    You folks on the Left must be proud to be associated with people that do such things. How uttertly definitive.


    Parent
    Glanton - Will you? (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:03:51 AM EST
    Okay, try this.

    Will someone here condem the spitting at, near or on a disable veteran?

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:10:31 AM EST
    I condemn spitting on or near a veteran.

    Doubtful that it happened but if it did no one here would condone it.

    Now STFU

    Parent

    Squeaky is angry. Wow (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:15:46 AM EST
    You write.

    Now STFU

    How drool. Guess havung the truth spoken to you makes you angry. Did you also stomp your foot?

    ;-)

    Parent

    no stomping (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:32:47 AM EST
    Not even annoyed. Just trying to save you more embarrassment from repeating wingnut spin.

    Parent
    Jim. (none / 0) (#27)
    by glanton on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:20:05 AM EST
    Now you're just being childish.  Look, if you don't want to get caught using deceptive language, just don't use it.  And if you don't want to be laughed at for getting all a tither, then don't get all a tither.

    :-)

    BTW, Read my commentary on this thread, including the first one I posted, and you'll see I condemned spitting.  Nobody on this thread or anywhere else is defending spitting.

    Just because you're imagining things doesn't make them real, Jim.  Stay alert, and stay with Fox.

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:29:08 AM EST
    Glanton - Why do you want to start out by talking about panties and then talk about being childish??

    Seems like you have a rock in your own eye.

    If I missed your apology, thanks for doing the right thing, and I apologize.

    As for deceptive language, I don't see any. I mean, if it's one or a hundred, a man with one leg can't run'em down.

    As for "they," it has been my experience that a person who would do such a thing are always in a group.

    And yes, I'll keep watching the network that is Fair and Balanced.

    BTW - Enjoy the first three episodes of "24?"

    Parent

    Whomever did the spitting (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by glanton on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:20:26 PM EST
    If spitting was indeed done, is responsible for what he did.   The problem is, your tantrum on this thread has involved a use of plural pronouns to reinforce a stereotype that has no basis in reality. You, perhaps, imagine that the spitter is representative of people against Bush's War.  Reasonable people will know that this is delusionary thinking.

    BTW, no word from you on what it might mean if Repack is right that this guy is a repeat complainer, while no other vet cites such stuff.  Is't possible he's going around provoking people?  At any rate, isn't it worth mentioning, on your hallowed "Fair and Balanced" network, that this guy has a relevant background in this area?  Would you condemn him if it came out that he sought out such confrontations in advance?

    Don't worry, I won't hold my breath waiting for your response.  

    As for "24", I don't watch it, but my interest has been piqued given the Right's multi-year long celebration of the show.  I remember watching an episode of Real Time where one of Maher's panelists, a editor for the WSJ, was defending institutionalized torture by saying people want our agents to act just like Jack.

    The "ticking time bomb" argument has a lot of currency now, and "24" has been hugely useful in giving that noxiousness wings. So, I'm going to get caught up on the show at the nearest opportunity.      

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 02:21:58 PM EST
    You write:

    You, perhaps, imagine that the spitter is representative of people against Bush's War.

    Huh? Well, excuse me. Here the spitter is marching in an anti-war parade and he spits on/at/near a disable vet and people might think he is opposed to the war and is representative of others?

    Well, you are known by the company you keep.

    My comment to RePack was:

    Well, since we know he has lost a leg in combat, I would say he isn't shy.

    Which is my of telling RePack that his attempt to smear the guy isn't gonna work in the real world.

    As for "24" I have seen only one episode.. don't watch much commercial TV unless it has my beloved UT and/or Broncos.. I may start just to find out what the Left is all in a snit about.

    If it is about a nuke being set off... I'd say the subtittle should be:

    Snatched from tomorrow's headlines.

    Any, glad to hear from a disagreeable but sometimes rational person... ;-)

    Parent

    If Repack (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by glanton on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 02:39:53 PM EST
    is right that this guy keeps popping up with the same narrative on multiple occasions, then it isn't 'smearing him' to point this out.  Except maybe in O'Reilly land.

    And your attempts to justify arguing the "spitter" is representative by association is laughable for all kinds of reasons.  I think you know this but can't bring yourself to simply say you went overboard.

    And back to "24," your comment about "tomorrow's headlines" has become commonplace throughout the Right. As I said, the ticking time bomb argument.  Let's celebrate torture because Jack's such a patriot.    

    But I'll tell you this, Jim.  If a terrorist blows up a city in the United States, it won't make the Republicans right about Iraq.  And it won't suddenly liberate torture from what it is.  And it won't suddenly mean that we should invade more countries.  And it won't be an associative excuse to ram more tax cuts for the rich, and more abrogations of our personal freedoms, and more declarations that we are a Christian nation and must honor Herr Dobson's interpretation of said religion, down the legislative pike.  

    Yet all of these would be knee-jerk reactions that I fear the media would overwhelmingly trot out in heels and a short skirt, as it were.  And you would embrace her as your long lost ideological love.  Sad.  

    Parent

    Edger tries to change subject (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:28:47 AM EST
    Guess you are going to run off and hide.

    Don't run too fast. Remember, he only has one leg.

    Change the subject? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Kitt on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    This is, after all, Jim, an "open thread."

    There's a scary documentary on HBO for those who have it, Friends of God. I'm watching it now.

    I didn't know there were baby dinosaurs on the ark?!

    Parent

    True Kitt, (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 02:03:23 PM EST
    but that doesn't mean that Edger has to run off...

    We don't have HBO. Us ROF's have to watch our pennies...

    Parent

    I'll have to check it out..... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 02:09:39 PM EST
    I enjoy a good comedy:)

    Parent
    I didn't know... (none / 0) (#78)
    by desertswine on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 04:40:47 PM EST
    "there were baby dinosaurs on the ark?!"

    That was so the Flintstones could ride on them to the bowling alley.

    Parent

    Elected vs non-elected (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:33:02 AM EST
    The White House will thus have a gatekeeper in each agency to analyze the costs and the benefits of new rules and to make sure the agencies carry out the president's priorities.

    Presidents come and go. What's wrong with an elected President wanting to make sure that non-elected agencies follow his priorities.

    Edger: One More Spitting Incident (none / 0) (#19)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:50:25 AM EST
    Edger's comment got deleted by mistake:

    This time, a substantiated one. This time, in the face of the whole country, and of the world.

    NYT, January 30, 2007
    Bush Directive Increases Sway on Regulation

        WASHINGTON, Jan. 29 -- President Bush has signed a directive that gives the White House much greater control over the rules and policy statements that the government develops to protect public health, safety, the environment, civil rights and privacy.

        In an executive order published last week in the Federal Register, Mr. Bush said that each agency must have a regulatory policy office run by a political appointee, to supervise the development of rules and documents providing guidance to regulated industries. The White House will thus have a gatekeeper in each agency to analyze the costs and the benefits of new rules and to make sure the agencies carry out the president's priorities.
        ...
        Peter L. Strauss, a professor at Columbia Law School, said the executive order "achieves a major increase in White House control over domestic government."

        "Having lost control of Congress," Mr. Strauss said, "the president is doing what he can to increase his control of the executive branch."

        Representative Henry A. Waxman, Democrat of California and chairman of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, said: "The executive order allows the political staff at the White House to dictate decisions on health and safety issues, even if the government's own impartial experts disagree. This is a terrible way to govern, but great news for special interests."

    Here is the link to it (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:53:51 AM EST
    IOW kommisars... (none / 0) (#70)
    by desertswine on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 03:20:49 PM EST
    Well who needs technical experts when you can replace them with political kommisars.

    Parent
    More spitting - again in faces (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:23:51 AM EST
    It's time for some oversight on the Bush Administrations' regular practice of spitting in the country's face and misleading people to distract from his long history of disrespect, incompetency, failure, and destruction.

    Waxman seeks climate inquiry evidence
    By H. JOSEF HEBERT, Associated Press Writer 21 minutes ago

    WASHINGTON - The Democratic chairman of a House panel examining the government's response to climate change said Tuesday there is evidence that senior Bush administration officials sought repeatedly "to mislead the public by injecting doubt into the science of global warming."

    Rep. Henry Waxman (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif., said he and the top Republican on his oversight committee, Rep. Tom Davis of Virginia, have sought documents from the administration on climate policy, but repeatedly been rebuffed.

    "The committee isn't trying to obtain state secrets or documents that could affect our immediate national security," said Waxman, opening the hearing. "We are simply seeking answers to whether the White House's political staff is inappropriately censoring impartial government scientists."

    "We know that the White House possesses documents that contain evidence of an attempt by senior administration officials to mislead the public by injecting doubt into the science of global warming and minimize the potential danger," Waxman said.



    akaTroll, (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:31:41 AM EST
    Whoever spat on him should be detained as a potential terrorist asset, as should all the other fifth columnists at this site.

    There, you happy Hiram?

    No, Jondee (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:33:25 AM EST
    Got any rational comments?

    And your snarky remark about the actions is most typical of you.

    Parent

    He ran off and hid.. (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:33:15 AM EST
    Like you and Bush in the sixties.

    Jondee (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:40:36 AM EST
    I guess since it is an open thread, so you can bring up the fact that Jondee never served if you want to.

    Must be the embarassment you suffer when ever the subject of disable vets come up.

    BTW everyone.. The "Hiram" Jondee refers to was a head dude at the KKK back in the 30's. You can find more information about him and how adroitly Walter Mead puts him down in this link.

    Since Jondee can't figure that out he likes to refer to me as a KKK fan, etc., etc.

    Don't be ugly to JOndee. He can't help it that he thinks everyone is a racist.


    Parent

    "The actions" LOL (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:43:20 AM EST
    And you fobbing off of laughably transparent Fox B.S as unimpeachable truth (but hey, you pay for that privalege), is, unfortunatly, most typical of you.

    Jondee (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 01:59:48 PM EST
    The disabled vet said what he said, Jondee. Why don't you call FNC and tell them you want to refute what he said?

    That would a fun thing to watch.

    Careful though. When you start running he might throw his crutches at you.

    Parent

    your fobbing off.. (none / 0) (#41)
    by jondee on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:44:16 AM EST
    your fobbing off..

    More on Stonehenge (none / 0) (#42)
    by Kitt on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:50:23 AM EST
    Neolithic site found near England's Stonehenge

    Evidence of a large settlement full of houses dating back to 2,600 BC has been discovered near the ancient stone monument of Stonehenge in southwest England, scientists said on Tuesday.

    They suspect inhabitants of the houses, forming the largest Neolithic village ever found in Britain, built the stone circle at Stonehenge -- generally thought to have been a temple, burial ground or an astronomy site -- between 3,000 and 1,600 BC.

    Mead (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:52:41 AM EST
    "Puts him down" by using his words to underscore his main thesis.

    Of all the articulate, enlightened voices of the last two hundred years, Mead 'just happened' on the words of an Imperial Wizard to tell us more about Andrew Jackson than Jackson could tell us himself.

    Klan Quotes:1, Jackson Quotes:0

    Jondee (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 01:57:28 PM EST
    Well Jondee, those who want can read the whole article and make up their mind.

    Thanks for bringing it up and giving me a chance to let people read it.

    Life is good.

    Parent

    Ashura pilgrims attacked in Iraq - 40 killed (none / 0) (#44)
    by Kitt on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:52:55 AM EST
    BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Bombers killed 36 people in two attacks on majority Shi'ite worshippers marking the religious ritual of Ashura on Tuesday amid heightened tensions between Iraq's Shi'ites and once politically dominant minority Sunnis.

    Four more pilgrims were killed in an ambush in the capital on the final day of the week-long annual Ashura mourning rite, the highpoint of the Shi'ite religious calendar.

    What is Ashura? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:06:42 PM EST
    Ashura is marked on the tenth day of Moharram, the first month of the Islamic calendar by both Sunni and Shia Muslims.

    However, they observe it differently.

    Ashura has been a day of fasting for Sunni Muslims since the days of the Prophet Muhammad. It marks the day Nuh (Noah) left the Ark and the day Musa (Moses) was saved from the Pharaoh by God.

    These bomb attacks during Ashura are almost certain to bring big time retribution from al-Sadr's Mahdi Army.

    Parent

    More on military protests (none / 0) (#46)
    by Kitt on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:58:05 AM EST
    The suppressed story of the GI movement to end the Vietnam War.

    indignant outrage is Fox News brea (none / 0) (#51)
    by tworivers on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:14:09 PM EST
    Ahh, the Fox News Outrage Machine is kicked once more into gear.  

    It's funny that when a Fox News "personality" says something like this, the same sense of indignant outrage is conspicuously lacking.

    If indeed this happened, then I certainly condemn it.  But you'll forgive me if I don't necessarily take Fox News' reporting on it as gospel.

    Sure to get some traction.. (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 12:35:10 PM EST
    This is sure to push that approval rating into the high twenties. At least. And I havnt seen ppj this indignant since they were trying to put brain dead Terri "to death".

    Jondee (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 01:55:15 PM EST
    You keep on acting as if Bush gives a flip about polls and approvals.

    Surely by now it should be plain to you that he doesn't.

    Parent

    Specter getting a spine? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Kitt on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 01:11:21 PM EST
    "I would suggest respectfully to the president that he is not the sole decider," Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., said during a hearing on Congress' war powers amid an increasingly harsh debate over Iraq war policy. "The decider is a shared and joint responsibility," Specter said.

    Oh dear.....

    Rep. Rahm Emmanuel (D-IL) on the House floor today:

        Mr. Speaker, President Bush was recently asked about the differences between himself and Vice President Cheney. The President downplayed any distance, but the differences are clear. In defending his decision to escalate the war in Iraq, President Bush said 'I'm the Decision-Maker.' And recently, despite some of the most violent months in Iraq, Vice President Cheney said that the war had been a 'success.' So, the difference: Bush is the decider and Cheney is the denier..

    How can the Left ignore the sins of Islam? (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 03:21:38 PM EST
    I have often wondered how the Left can attack Bush for fighting an enemy that would quickly kill any and all people on the Left if they should take power. Perhaps this book offers some insight.

    In his new book What's Left?, Cohen, a columnist for the Observer and London Evening Standard, examines why the left abandoned its allies -- in Iraq, in particular -- and began making excuses for the fascist regime of Saddam Hussein. According to Cohen, the left is motivated by one overwhelming factor: an all-consuming hatred for America. "The apparent commitment to help Iraqis [overcome a murderous, fascist regime] vanished the moment Saddam invaded Kuwait in August 1990 and became America's enemy," Cohen writes.

    The left's anti-Americanism is compounded by an irrational loathing of Western democratic values. In the past the left might hold that the lack of women's rights in the Third World was a horrible injustice that demanded feminists' divine intervention. Indeed until recently feminists were scurrying all over the globe, holding righteous conferences that bemoaned the lack of women's rights in the Third World and Arab states, not to mention the existence of forced marriages, honor-killings, marital rape, the murder of homosexuals and the banning of education for women.

    But once the Baathists and militant Islamists became America's enemies, the left turned its ire toward George W. Bush and its attention to protesting the war and to perceived hate crimes against Muslims in the West. Liberals demanded that Bush and Blair be impeached and Donald Rumsfeld be hauled into the dock for war crimes. A few went so far as to defend forced marriages, restrictions on the movement and education of women, the forced wearing of the burka, etc., on the grounds that these were the legitimate customs of an authentic, traditional culture, a tradition equally as valid as the West's imperialist, patriarchic, racist culture. Women's rights were put on the backburner or forgotten. Betrayal is the word Cohen uses time and again. "It was somehow culturally imperialist to criticize reactionary movements and ideas, as long as they aren't European or American reactionary movements and ideas," he writes. "This delusion is everywhere now. It lies behind the extreme form of multiculturalism we have in this country."

    All of this is spot on to me, and I think even more so when I consider that none of the regulars here can answer me when I ask what they will be willing to give up if we have to negotiate with the radical moslems.

    The answer given so far is that we shouldn't engage in war. That is a comment that I would agree with if I thought that by us doing so the threat would go away. It won't, of coure, as the writings, interviews of OBL and the others demonstrate, as well as the continuing demand to NOT be made to assimilate into western culture by some moslems who demand to ignore the laws and rules of the US, England and Europe in favor of special treatment. I give you the cab drivers in Minneapolis and prisoners in England who demand
    that comodes face a certain way and Imams world wide screaming over editorial cartoons that they find offensive.

    Damp Sheets and Pampers (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 03:31:17 PM EST
    Once again from a trembling ppj : a bedwetters fantasy.

    Parent
    Nick Cohen Watch (none / 0) (#75)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 04:03:32 PM EST
    An analogy for ppj's bedwetter fantasy:


     Once upon a time, a rat exterminator had a bright idea of how to solve the rat problems of central London. A thermonuclear device would do the trick, at least for a time. Some people objected, pointing out that the destruction of human life, historic buildings, economic disruption etc would be too high a price to pay for such a measure. The rat exterminator regarded such people with scorn: they were campaigning to save the rats, he claimed.....

    read on...

    Parent

    Careful you don't (none / 0) (#76)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 04:10:52 PM EST
    make the rats feel cornered. ;-)
    Rat prefers to attack with private messages rather than out in the open. CAUTION : If a Warrior starts to get the better of the fight he will suddenly post out of context excerpts of his opponent's messages to the list.


    Parent
    Edger, You want context? OK (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:14:21 PM EST

    Facts, Edger, don't leave home without them.

    Re: Kozlowski Sentence and Viewpoints (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:04 PM EST

    Che - Write this down. Bears make money. Bulls make money. Pigs get slaughtered. And what I said was that if you put all your eggs in one basket, make damn sure the basket is in good shape. Squeak writes:

    Bush and Lay plotted to get Gov. Davis out as a start.

    Hey Squeak, we all know it is because Rove's Grandfather worked for the Nazis. Isn't that what you told us? So were is some proof?

    --------------------------------------------
    Re: Kozlowski Sentence and Viewpoints (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:04 PM EST

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

    Edger, I proved the other day that even when you admit that you made a mistake when you called me a liar, you won't apologize.

    That's cheesy, Edger. That's juvenile.

    Parent

    Good call (none / 0) (#99)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:18:14 PM EST
    How prescient of you.

    Parent
    Once again Squeaky tries a smear job. (none / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 08:48:56 PM EST
    But we know abiout him and his relationship to proof.

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

    You impeach yourself.


    Parent

    Bingo! (none / 0) (#96)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:14:18 PM EST
    ppj's famous banner appears.

    Parent
    I answered you sir.... (none / 0) (#80)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 04:58:41 PM EST
    I'd be willing to negotiate away our military bases in any and all of the 135 foreign countries countries they are currently located.  I'd also negotiate away any undue influenece on sovereign foreign governments and interference in the will of the people of foreign countries.

    Parent
    kdog - Problem is, that won't work. (none / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:00:52 PM EST
    As OBL said in this interview for CNN's Peter Arnett:

    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ?

    BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula,

    but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.

    So, now that you have given away all of our military bases, what will you do to protect us here in the US?

    Shall you fight here when attacked? And since you have no way of projecting any real force, what will you give away first when negotiating?

    kdog, I know we disagree on some things. I know you are largely ant-establishment because of how your father was wronged. Well, remember that I grew as the poorest of the poor. We were "share croppers." So I have a good idea of how far you can trust the "man."

    But as bad as some of the BS that we see around here, the radical moslem world is a thousand times worse.

    Parent

    Protect us here? (none / 0) (#108)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:57:01 PM EST
    You mean, besides the big oceans and the fact that Osama doesn't have a navy or an air force? Besides all the nukes and aircraft carriers and ballistic missiles we have?  Besides a citizenry that I believe would take up arms to protect their freedom if it was ever seriously under attack?

    This isn't about me being anti-establishment, it's about me being anti-aggression.  I think we wouldn't have terrorism problems if we didn't have military bases all over the world, supporting coups, toppling elected governments for the past 60 years or so.

    Besides, I don't see how muslims are the victim of "aggressive intervention" here at home.  We have freedom of religion.  American muslims aren't attacking America.  If we let people live, I'll think we'll be allright.  Maybe if we stopped giving nut-jobs like Osama an enemy to rally against, stopped trying to enforce our will by might, people would come around to freedom all over the world eventually.

    Parent

    kdog (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 07:01:09 AM EST
    Problem is, we HAD military bases. OBL has spelled it out for you. Kinda like a guy in a bar who's mad at you and is gonna try and kick your butt even after you apologize.

    The issue is religion for the radical moslems. They believe totally, and they don't believe you have any rights.

    Remember that you are dealing with people that will kill themselves if they can kill some of their enemies. That is not someone you can sit down with and cut a deal with.

    Parent

    I think.... (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by kdog on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 09:53:21 AM EST
    the number of people willing to strap a bomb to themselves is relatively small.

    If they wanna fight after we stop the aggression....then we fight.  At least we will be 100% in the right.

    Parent

    Edger (none / 0) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 02:49:20 PM EST
    You can tell that to the families of those who will be killed before we decide to fight again.

    Parent
    Jim's rambling screed above (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 03:40:55 PM EST
    is a perfect example of what I referred to yesterday here:
    After you've refuted the same things over and over and over ad nauseum from him for months on end and watched him ignore the refutations and flatly deny facts you present to him and deflect away from topics and move goal posts and make blanket condemnations of peoples and races without ever doing it explicitly but with insinuation and innuendo, you'll start to read between the lines of his posts.

    ... and the questions he asks have been answered for him repeatedly (and ignored by him) by myself and by many others over the past few years so often that he leaves no doubt that he does not ask with any honest intention of reasonable discussion, and is here only to disengenuously troll, and for no other reason, IMO.

    That disengenuous, as well as his performance in this thread today (which is far from unusual for him), is why I also said yesterday that:

    ...it should be clear after this thread, if it was not before. PPJ is not worth engaging. He refuses absolutely to have an honest or sensical discussions. And he does it on purpose. Not because he is incapable or does not understand fact or logic.

    On purpose.



    Edger (none / 0) (#92)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 08:45:18 PM EST
    No. You didn't answer the question, which was a simple one.

    If we have to fight or negotiate, what are you willing to give away?

    I gave you several choices... The right of gays and lesbians to live.. Women's rights.... Women's educations... Freedom of religion..

    Now, Peaches said:

    We can avoid war (none / 0) (#94)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 04:34:07 PM EST
    by not engaging in it.

    We don't need to negotiate. We can give up our arms. We can call our troops home. War is bad. Bombs kill and maim. Bulletts kill and maim. Mines kill and maim. The F16 is a homocide bomber. Stop the killing.

    And you answered:

     

    See Peaches answer. (none / 0) (#106)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 05:26:39 PM EST

    Mine is the same. But you knew that. We've been through it countless times.

    The only addition to it I would add is that one necessary component is to marginalize and contain the people who start, and support starting, these wars.

    This  is the link to the above comments.

    Now based on the above I concluded that you wouldn't be willing to fight. Peaches later said he would fight, but wouldn't kill.

    So I have asked again. As part of the negotiations during the extended surrender process, what rights will you be willing to give away, FIRST?

    Remember, when you start speaking truth to power to these guys, they'll just cut your head off!

    Parent

    pp (none / 0) (#81)
    by jondee on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 05:22:09 PM EST
    Lets see some examples of "the Left" making excuses for Saddam. I dont recall too many. And while you're at it explain why the American Left isnt part of America; which you and your knuckle dragging proxy claim "it hates".

    Who bequethed to you and a Likud stooge the right to define what constitutes meaningful U.S citzenship?

    Jondee (none / 0) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 08:30:58 PM EST
    Ho hum... Let me say this again.

    If you think the troops should come home, please tell us what your plan is to keep the terrorists away, prevent the death of thousands of people in the ME, etc.

    Now, if you don't have a plan and don't believe the terrorist will come calling, and don't care if thousands of Iraqis will die because we have just left, fine. Say so.

    I mean it isn't like the Left hasn't done this before. Remember Vietnam? Cambobia? Re-education camps? The "Killing Fields?"

    The "Saddam excuses" come from the book, so you'll have to read it. I just remember CNN not telling us the truth for years and years... That's enough for me.

    Parent

    Crap (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 05:34:51 PM EST
    Being a naysayer to the agenda of the current regime makes you an "America hater"; a veritable enemy of the state. Oddly enough, the people that claim this are the same ones who claim (if you can believe them), to have hated Stalin and what he stood for.

    h/t DailyKos poster (none / 0) (#83)
    by ding7777 on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 05:57:46 PM EST
    Magnet for bad things!

    Joshua Sparling, (b. 1981- ) is a Private First Class in the U.S. Army from Port Huron, Michigan, who was wounded in the War in Iraq. In December 2005, while recuperating at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C., Sparling received what he thought was a Christmas card, which turned out to be anonymous hate mail expressing the wish that Sparling would die. Sparling underwent multiple surgeries to treat his wounds. Media coverage of the story triggered an outpouring of over 20,000 cards and gifts to wounded soldiers at Walter Reed.

    wikipedia

    Sparling is (none / 0) (#84)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 07:09:33 PM EST
    Thanks Edger (none / 0) (#86)
    by glanton on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 07:13:49 PM EST
    Between Repack, ding, and yourself, a pattern has been revealed.  What a surprise, Jim sent us on a snipe hunt.

    As they say on pickup basketball courts everywhere: Next??????

    Parent

    Yep. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 07:24:08 PM EST
    Here's the rest of the blogsearch on him - the wingnut blogs have bitten down hard on this one and they all have lockjaw I guess.

    And another good dissection of it here...

    Parent

    Edger, thanks. (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:31:22 PM EST
    BTW - If you need further proof that someone tried to spit on him/at him/ near him..... just read the comments in your link.

    These folks convict themselves.

    So thanks, Edger. I apprecuatre the help.

    Parent

    Edger (none / 0) (#104)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:26:14 PM EST
    Did you read what the NYT said?

    In your world does everyone but Edger lie??

    Sadly, the answer is in your mind, yes.

    Parent

    The wikipedia (none / 0) (#85)
    by glanton on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 07:11:25 PM EST
    entry is telling.

    Sparling's repeated "victimization" appears to have been awfully good for propaganda outfits, particularly Fox.

    But then, maybe he really does just have bad luck and keeps encountering hateful protestors nobody else seems to have met. ;-)

    Stay alert.

    Parent

    The saddest part of it is (none / 0) (#88)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 07:29:11 PM EST
    that when people get suckered their ego gets all wrapped up in it and they can't admit it because they'd feel stupid, I guess.

    Parent
    Personally... (none / 0) (#89)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 07:46:38 PM EST
    I'd feel stupider staying suckered after finding out I had been.

    Parent
    Dark Avenger (none / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 08:21:21 PM EST
    Ah, I see that you are terribly misinformed.

    The comode issue is that the comodes in prisons, per the demands of the Moslem prsioners, are facing the wrong way in relationship to the directions the prisioners want to pray.

    Naturally they demand that the British tax payer have the comodes positioned to suit Sharia law.

    The MN case is simple. Some of, perhaps all, of the Moslem taxi drivers are refusing to carry passengers with alcohol or dogs. Now cabs are common carriers and all should operate under the same rules. But the Moslems are demanding they be excepted because of Sharia law.

    At what point do you think we should say:

    You're welcome in our country, but you must obey our laws. If that's a problem, leave.

    The Minnesota case is easy.... (none / 0) (#109)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 10:01:38 PM EST
    I'd tell the cabdrivers the same thing I tell pharmacists who won't supply the morning after pill....."This is America, I suggest you find another line of work if the duties of your current job make you uncomfortable."

    Parent
    kdog (none / 0) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 06:38:05 AM EST
    So would I, but we have them claiming that would take way their freedom of religion.

    It's fair simple. They don't want a secular society. Take a close look at what has happened in Europe, and what is happening in Europe.

    Parent

    Same claim the christian pharm's make... (none / 0) (#126)
    by kdog on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 09:30:12 AM EST
    And both claims are bunk...nobody is taking away their right to practice their religion.  Their religions prevent them from taking certain jobs, that's all.

    Parent
    Amazing (none / 0) (#128)
    by glanton on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:29:06 AM EST
    How that simple concept eludes people, isn't it?

    Parent
    DA. What's next? (none / 0) (#113)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 06:49:00 AM EST
    So we'll put you down for Moslems not having to obey the same laws the rest of us do.

    What's next? Honor killings?

    Well, judge, my sister was making the family look bad.

    Kill the dogs?

    Well judge, my religion says dogs are unclean, so I just killed all the ones in my neighborhood. And if the neighbors don't like it, let'em move. I have my rights you know.

    Rape?

    Well judge, she showed me her face and that caused me to attack her...

    You should be less interested in trying to make points as if you were in a middle school debatung class and start to think all of this through.

    Parent

    The problem (none / 0) (#147)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 02:43:03 PM EST
    I don't see the country changing

    I know. That's the problem. You don't see.

    Neither did the  French.

    Parent

    We reserve the right... (none / 0) (#133)
    by Dadler on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:16:39 AM EST
    ...to refuse service to anyone.  No shirt, no shoes, no service.  It's not illegal to go barefoot, or shirtless (well at least for men).

    Though I do agree the cab issue is b.s., because unlike a place of business doing this, a customer cannot know until the cab shows up that the driver won't take them.  It is a mitigating inconvenience to me.  Could be dangerous in many situations, leaving people without another choice or stranded somewhere unsafe or whatever.

    Parent

    From TWN today... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:00:57 PM EST
    January 30, 2007
    14 cents per Iraqi Refugee per Year vs. $300 million per Day to Finance Occupation
    America has only allowed U.S. entry to 466 Iraqis since the beginning of this war -- while the UN reports that nearly 3.4 million have fled Iraq to escape the violence and are refugees practically everywhere except the United States.
    ...
    Baghdad in January 2007 has still not reached the point of Saigon in April 1975. If the Ford administration could quickly save 130,000 people amid the tidal wave of a full-scale military defeat, surely the Bush administration can save 20,000, or more, from Iraq.

    ...in 2006, the U.S. provided $400,000 to support U.N. refugee resettlement efforts, a figure it proposes to increase to $500,000 this year. (If you divide $500,000 by the 3.4 million Iraqi refugees, you get a commitment of about 14 cents per refugee.

    ...
    America is spending 14 cents per refugee in this war of choice?

    This kind of bugetary ugliness is exactly what makes sure we lose the battle for hearts and minds in the Middle East.

    I think there are probably more than a few Iraqis that are pretty pissed that they were chosen for bush style freedom and democracy.

    Edger (none / 0) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:18:52 PM EST
    Why do you think we will be defeated?

    And if we are, why should we care about the Iraqis?

    I mean the Left doesn't or you would be screaming about cutting and running, leaving them to kill each other?

    Parent

    Rats swimming for their lives (none / 0) (#98)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:15:35 PM EST
    IHT, January 29, 2007
    PARIS: Former U.S. envoy to the United Nations John Bolton said in an interview published in France that the United States has "no strategic interest" in a united Iraq.
    ...
    "We did a disservice to Iraqis by depriving them of political leaders," Bolton was quoted as saying, adding that the Coalition Provisional Authority that initially ran Iraq allowed terrorists to regroup. Bolton was speaking in English, and the interview was published in French. An English-language copy of the interview was not available.

    Bolton suggested in the interview that the United States shouldn't necessarily keep Iraq from splitting up.



    Edger - Try and think it through.. (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:21:41 PM EST
    He makes an excellent point, except that Turkey won't allow a Kurdish state on their borders and Iran will sieze all the oil producing areas in the south....

    And move towards Kuwait and SA.....

    Do you actually think we could allow that?

    Hello nuclear war.

    Parent

    Your irrationality is stunning (none / 0) (#135)
    by Dadler on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:43:11 AM EST
    It gets worse every day.  Step back and read what you wrote.  You cannot, even in the most marginal of ways, use Iraq as proof we're helping prevent "hello nuclear war".  Your contradiction, your denial of reality on the ground, your failure to take responsibility for the hundreds of thousands of death YOUR support has already resulted in, it's just...stunning.  And yes, Jim, I as a lefty will take full political responsibility for any deaths which can be attributed directly to the U.S. getting the hell out of Iraq as almost all Iraqis want.  

    We will all have to live with this wretched mistake for our entire lives.  Life is hard, bud, there ARE no answers for really awful things, and no amount of wishful thinking or "good" intentions or hero complex is going to change that.  This is what you realize when you become an adult.  That you just can't fix some things, that some terrible f*ckups can't be unf*cked.  Your position supports both a chaos you deny is already occurring AND continuing a stone dumb war and military occupation tremendously despised by a vast majority the Iraqi population.  Do you honestly think you can "help" people who don't want your help?

    That is the ugly reality.  We have blown it.  That happens all the time, my friend.  Unblowing it is for the Iraqis to do.  I suppose we should've predicted that the majority Shiites were going to be pretty violent toward the minority Sunnis who ran tyrannical over them for decades.  But those of us who warned of all those things, who counseled patience and wisdom, those of us who were RIGHT, we were called traitors and terrorist-lovers and ignored.  Your side made our bed, and we've all had to sleep in it, and now we're getting out AS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OVERWHELMINGLY FAVOR.  Or does that overwhelming public will only mean something when it supports a war.  But not when it stops.  By your sides definition, there is simply NO way for our nation to get itself out of a wretched mistake of a war, because if we do the enemy will be happy, blah blah blah.  So think about that.  You think there is just no way for free Americans, not even when they are the VAST MAJORITY, to get their nation out of a war that is only harming their interests and the interests of Iraqis.

    It's one Orwellian rationalization after another.  With no end.    

    Parent

    One thing Dadler (none / 0) (#138)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:02:27 PM EST
    I agree completely with everything you said there.

    But... I have also come to believe that the situation in Iraq now is exactly what Cheney/Bush/PNAC wanted it to be and have worked for it to be for many years, and that they hope to be able to use this situation, as Iran moves in to fill the power void, to justify attacking Iran. To point to Iran moving in and say "see - we told you so - Iran wants to take over".

    IOW, it has been a long war with Iran. Iraq, and the Iraqi people, were just incidental expendable pawns in the game, as are the US Troops who have died or been maimed there.

    Parent

    I sure hope not (none / 0) (#143)
    by Dadler on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:26:22 PM EST
    But I can't deny it could be possible, with this group of warpowermongers.  That said, I wait for Jimbo to be rhetorically savvy and use this post against me here.

    Nothing like a lefty who can intellectually forthrightly give the opposition some ammunition to shoot him with.  Though, I must confess, I offer said ammunition expecting the opposition to to shoot themSELVES with.

    Parent

    Have you seen this, Dadler? (none / 0) (#145)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 02:21:06 PM EST
    The Build Up To Iran Timeline

    September 2000 through January 11, 2007

    Parent

    Dadler (none / 0) (#161)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 05:26:29 PM EST
    Well, let's see it. Your link goes to a comment in which you demonstrate a desire to shut down all comments that you disagree with.

    Nothing new there. Your move to the Left continues...

    And at one point I had hopes.

    Parent

    Bushism an utter failure (none / 0) (#101)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:21:22 PM EST
    With Iran Ascendant, U.S. Is Seen at Fault
    Arab Allies in Region Feeling Pressure
    Washington Post Foreign Service, January 30, 2007
    Four years after the United States invaded Iraq, in part to transform the Middle East, Iran is ascendant, many in the region view the Americans in retreat, and Arab countries, their own feelings of weakness accentuated, are awash in sharpening sectarian currents that many blame the United States for exacerbating.
    ...
    "The United States is the first to be blamed for the rise of Iranian influence in the Middle East," said Khaled al-Dakhil, a Saudi writer and academic. "There is one thing important about the ascendance of Iran here. It does not reflect a real change in Iranian capabilities, economic or political. It's more a reflection of the failures on the part of the U.S. and its Arab allies in the region."

    Added Eyal Zisser, head of the Middle Eastern and African Studies Department at Tel Aviv University in Israel: "After the whole investment in democracy in the region, the West is losing, and Iran is winning."



    Edger... (none / 0) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 09:24:32 PM EST
    Listening to someone from SA complain reminds me of children moaning. Perhaps if they controlled their own country and showed a little democracy themselves we would be closer to winning.

    BTW - Do you ever say anything good about the US?

    Come on, you can do it.

    Parent

    What the heck ... (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Sailor on Tue Jan 30, 2007 at 11:21:10 PM EST
    ... it's an open thread so I'll bite:
    A good thing about the US is that 70% of the people disagree with ppj.

    Parent
    Heh. (none / 0) (#111)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 04:02:29 AM EST
    Edger (none / 0) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 06:50:21 AM EST
    When are you going to answer the question??

    Parent
    Boston Herald (none / 0) (#115)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 06:58:58 AM EST
    reporter Mike Barnicle gets a few off his chest rather humorously while throwing slings and arrows at Cheney and Bush as well as delivering a great assessment of Jim Webb as "an original" and "a guy grounded in reality" who'll be a plus for the U.S. because "at any given time he is liable to reach across the aisle or reach across the desk in front of him and choke the person that he's dealing with.", while doing a guest callin on Don Imus in the Morning, describ[ing] Dick Cheney as a
    "paranoid, arrogant, and now, thankfully, frightened Vice President of the United States."

    Rawstory has the video here. Great morning coffee accompaniment.


    The rise and fall.. (none / 0) (#117)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 07:24:13 AM EST
    "History recalls how great the fall can be
    While everybody's sleeping, the boats put out to sea"
    --Fool's Overture

    NYT, January 30, 2007
    Europe Resists U.S. Push to Curb Iran Ties

    WASHINGTON, Jan. 29 -- European governments are resisting Bush administration demands that they curtail support for exports to Iran and that they block transactions and freeze assets of some Iranian companies, officials on both sides say. The resistance threatens to open a new rift between Europe and the United States over Iran.
    ...
    Several European officials said in interviews that they believe that the United States and Saudi Arabia have an unwritten deal to keep oil production up, and prices down, to further squeeze Iran, which is dependent on oil for its economic solvency. No official has confirmed that such a deal exists.


    This NYT article is illuminating (none / 0) (#144)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:28:00 PM EST
    but is also an example of spin in some ways. For example this sentence...
    The resistance threatens to open a new rift between Europe and the United States over Iran.
    ...in the first paragraph, would IMO be more accurate if it had been written this way:
    The demands of the Bush Administration not only threaten to but appear to already be opening a new rift between Europe and the United States over Iran.


    Parent
    Happy Wednesday, DA. (none / 0) (#121)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 08:06:23 AM EST
    Supertramp did write some good, timeless, all encompassing lyrics, didn't they? ;-)

    DA - Think of a couple (none / 0) (#123)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 08:29:03 AM EST
    No, what you are doing is to deny the reality we are living in. This allows you to think that you have a superior moral position when in fact a lot of people will die if we do what you support.

    At the end of the day you have no solid position, thinking that everything is negotiable and that surely we can reason with the radicals.

    Yet we when I ask you what you are willing to negotiate away you have no answer.

    You better think of a couple. Because if we pull out of Iraq and become isolated that is exactly what we will be doing in a few years.

    How do I know this? Because it is already started.
    You have agreed that the Moslem cab drivers don't have to follow the rules and laws that conflict with their religious law, and that England must make special provision for their Moslem prisoners.

    So I ask agaun, what else are you willing to give away?

    Let's not forget the voting machine mess (none / 0) (#131)
    by Dadler on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 10:48:57 AM EST
    Good one Dadler (none / 0) (#132)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:12:06 AM EST
    Non-programmers are generally dangerously unaware just how easy this kind of stuff is. Software development is one of my skills - I took my first Computer Programming Diploma in '72, using IBM 360 & 370 Mainframes. Fossils compared to what we now use.

    My first job in the industry out of college was with a major banks data centre. They were processing 700,000 checking account transactions per day on their machine. The programmer who wrote the checking account update program simply wrote the program to calculate every transaction to one more decimal point than the banks systems analysts had specified.

    You can guess where this is going. The extra decimal point was "deposited" electronically into his own account - 700,000 times per day.

    This went on for about three weeks before one of the tellers in the main branch where his account was "noticed" some frequent unusual sized withdrawals.

    The programmer never returned to work. He wasn't me, btw ;-)

    Parent

    My wife is CIO of a bank (none / 0) (#137)
    by Dadler on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:54:49 AM EST
    Runs the whole computer system.  She's been in the business for years, credit unions too.  And the stuff she tells me, that never gets reported, it's crazy.  And the people don't get criminally charged unless it's really big, like your guy.  She had an employee at another place who probably pilfered 25,000 bucks with fake ATM accounts and kiting checks through them.  He didn't get charged, they just got as much money back from him as they could.  The financial institutions just don't want you to know who much financial chicanery goes or how easy it is.

    Parent
    The bigger it is the less (none / 0) (#140)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:15:26 PM EST
    the banks want it in court, often. It's embarrassing... and it shines a bright media light on their security holes, which causes copycats, and costs them more money. Many times they'll just cut their losses and let the perps walk...

    They can always crank up their fees by a penny per customer, and make more than they lost, too.

    Parent

    The guy I talked about (none / 0) (#141)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:16:27 PM EST
    wasn't charged. He just never returned to work.

    Parent
    A reminder why... (none / 0) (#159)
    by kdog on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 05:13:03 PM EST
    I don't use banks except to trade my checks for cold hard cash.  Every week the teller bugs me to open an account, and every week I say "not on your life".

    I'm reminded of the misleading commercial Visa is running where the one guy paying cash throws a wrench in the works in a long line of debit cards users. I don't know what planet the cafeteria in the commercial exists on...but here on planet earth its the guy who uses a debit card to buy a 1.50 cup of coffee who holds up the line and throws a wrench in the works.

    Long live cash.

    Parent

    Edger (none / 0) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 02:37:46 PM EST
    Wasn't that a movie??

    Parent
    Terri's (none / 0) (#134)
    by jondee on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:31:26 AM EST
    Great job "preventing the death of thousands in the M.E", Jim. You deserve the Albert Speer Award.

    "The Sins of Islam" (none / 0) (#136)
    by jondee on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 11:46:26 AM EST
    Not "the sins of Islamic fanatics", or, "the sins of fanaticism", but the sins of Islam, with it's implication of impugning the beliefs and conduct of over a billion people.        

    This is the under-the-wire hate speech/propaganda that Ive been refering to when I refer to the underlying bigotry (and, I believe, crypto racism)
    that pokerputz has been getting away with here for the last few years.

    Decon, as Jim's seeming part time defense attorney, do you have a response?

    Jondee can't understand (none / 0) (#149)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:07:39 PM EST
    Sigh... You really are incapable of understanding, aren't you...

    Radical Moslems and Moderate Moslems are both members of the Islam faith.

    Given that the radicals are the fruit of Islam, it is easy to see that Islam itself has some problems.

    Just as the Catholic Church's teachings caused some problems three or four hundred years ago.

    So when I say "the sins of Islam," I am not identifying individuals but one of the causes that the radicals sieze on and use to justify their actions.

    If that shocks you, you have failed to note that several times I have said that the Moslem faith needs to be reformed just as the Catholic faith was reformed... And what a bloody mess that was. Perhaps that is what the Moslem faith is starting to go through now, since it was the excesses of the church that triggered the changes.

    There now. Quit running around yelling, See! See! and try to grasp the concept that a religion can have bad things in it.

    And saying so is not immoral, illegal or fattening.

    BTW - Of course under Sharia law, it will be illegal. And based on your reaction, you have no problems with that.

    Would you have the same reaction if I had said "The sins of the Christians....?

    You know, I don't think you would.

    Parent

    Hypocrite (none / 0) (#151)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:32:32 PM EST
    Fault of Islam?

    So then is it no longer true in your mind that guns don't kill people do, one of your favorite NRA slogans?

    And are the radical christians in america chopped liver or is there some inherent problems in that religion too.

    Parent

    Squeaky (none / 0) (#163)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 05:39:59 PM EST
    The comment speaks for itself.

    But in case you are still confused, which you are not, just playing "dumb," let me again note that the  problem is not radical christians, but radical Moslems.

    The radicals draw their inspirations from some content of the Islamic faith/writings, somewhat polluted by some Imams and other so called religious leaders.

    Just as was the case in the Catholic church pre reformation.

    But, in case you have missed it, and I think your knowledge of religious history is limited to what movies you have seen on the subject, that phase of christianity is long, long, long over with.

    Perhaps someday the same will be true of the Moslem faith.

    Parent

    So it follows (none / 0) (#167)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 06:05:13 PM EST
    That guns do kill. Nice to see you let go of one of your NRA talking points.

    As far as Christians who hate, kill, or want to kill that is still very much alive today, and in America no less. In fact you personally have advocated killing several times here at TL. You must have gotten that from your friend Pat Robertson.

    For a look at the rising tide of White Supremetism Dave Neiwert  has a great essay. But then, it is most likely above your head, and to make it less palatable for you, you are the subject.

    Parent

    Squeaky (none / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 09:37:02 PM EST
    Please try to focus.

    It is the radical moslems we need to worry about.

    Pat Robertson et al is not even taking airplane crashing ... ooops ... flying lessons.

    As for the rest of your smear, well, we know you.

    Parent

    I've always wondered (none / 0) (#164)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 05:53:29 PM EST
    about where radical christian wacks get off thinking they are any better than radical muslims, myself.

    I guess they both spin about as fast... since it seems that they're both about to fly apart from the centrifugal force.

    Parent

    Edger (none / 0) (#166)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 06:03:15 PM EST
    Perhaps you should have some history courses along with the computer science ones.

    History is filled with some real "christian" nut cases, especially during the Reformation. Read "A World Lit Only by Fire."

    Problem is, that's history.

    Radical moslems are today.

    Our task is to make sure they do as little damage as possible.

    Parent

    One of the idiotic messages (none / 0) (#139)
    by jondee on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 12:08:24 PM EST
    I've gotten from this site, along with the more numerous intelligent, life affirming ones, is that the promulgation of certain species of bigotry is allowable.

    DA snarks again. (none / 0) (#142)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 01:16:41 PM EST
    Well, leaving aside the HAHA's, etc., let's see what you say.

    You don't claim to be morally superior, just intellectually. Hmmm. Nice claim. As a member of the Left I believe you must support the demonstrations that supposedly are aimed at getting us out of Iraq because people are getting killed.

    That has to be a moral position in your mind, and the minds of those who protested.

    So you say that everything is not negotiable. Okay. If you don't believe that, what is your motives for opposing the WOT? We are being attacked. The options are surrender, negotiate or fight. Can I put you down for surrender?

    This is not a matter of criminal justice. We have real organizations planning and implementing attacks on the US and western Europe in general.

    Since you claim to be intellectually superior I wonder why you claim to not be able to read or hear what the radical Moslems are doing. Based on that, I find your claim spurious.

    Once we have established the precedent that the cab drivers don't have to follow the rules, what's next?  As to the result, I am hopeful they will be soundly rebuffed. But based on the inability of the Left to see the problem this could bring, I am far from certain.

    BTW - What civil right is violated when a Moslem cab driver is told that he must follow the same rules as all cab drivers?

    If you tell me that his civil rights are being violated, then I will tell you that since the rules he doesn't have to follow are rules established by government, then you must agree that a school district has the right to establish a school for whites only.

    Or that an airline pilot can ignore the FAA rules regarding drinking and flying.

    All in all DA, you remain stuck in the belief that all is equal and nothing is better than the other. Wonderful for setting around the campfire and singing, but when you are dealing with people who will kill you just because you are not Moslem and might oppose them, I think a more rigorous examination of how we should respond to them is in order.

    Ta Ta, DA.

    US Victory... (none / 0) (#150)
    by desertswine on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:23:04 PM EST
    scar -wrong again (none / 0) (#160)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 05:18:45 PM EST
    Do you ever read what you link to?

    American helicopters then arrived and dropped leaflets saying: "To the terrorists, surrender before we bomb the area." The tribesmen went on firing and a US helicopter was hit and crashed killing two crewmen.

    FNC last night had two of its military "experts" on and both expressed doubt over the casualty count by by the Iraqis. Looks like "fair and balanced" had it right.

    Anyway, based on your own link, an offer to surrender was made, and rejected.

    That doesn't support your overheated and wrong claim of a "massacre."

    Or is it always a  massacre when our side wins?

    Parent

    Scar - I mean Desertswine ;-) (none / 0) (#162)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 05:30:23 PM EST
    I didn't think you'd changed your name. I wonder what gave me that idea?

    Anyway - this is the part of the story that really grabbed me:

    The incident reportedly began when a procession of 200 pilgrims was on its way, on foot, to celebrate Ashura in Najaf. They came from the Hawatim tribe, which lives between Najaf and Diwaniyah to the south, and arrived in the Zarga area, one mile from Najaf at about 6am on Sunday. Heading the procession was the chief of the tribe, Hajj Sa'ad Sa'ad Nayif al-Hatemi, and his wife driving in their 1982 Super Toyota sedan because they could not walk. When they reached an Iraqi army checkpoint it opened fire, killing Mr Hatemi, his wife and his driver, Jabar Ridha al-Hatemi. The tribe, fully armed because they were travelling at night, then assaulted the checkpoint to avenge their fallen chief.

    Members of another tribe called Khaza'il living in Zarga tried to stop the fighting but they themselves came under fire. Meanwhile, the soldiers and police at the checkpoint called up their commanders saying they were under attack from al-Qai'da with advanced weapons. Reinforcements poured into the area and surrounded the Hawatim tribe in the nearby orchards. The tribesmen tried - in vain - to get their attackers to cease fire.

    And Coburn continued with:

    But it would explain the disparity between the government casualties - less than 25 by one account - and the great number of their opponents killed and wounded. The Iraqi authorities have sealed the site and are not letting reporters talk to the wounded.

    Something is not adding up here, and smells very bad... I imagine we'll see more news about it in the coming days, and hopefully it won't all be spin and excusing.

    Parent

    There is much more to this than appears (none / 0) (#171)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 08:41:39 PM EST
    particularly in the link to the Stratfor article mentioned here.

    Deciphering the An Najaf Battle
    Stratfor - 6 hours ago

    An Iraqi Shiite messianic group the government has labeled a cult, and which Baghdad says fought with US and Iraqi troops over the weekend near An Najaf, , issued a statement saying it was not engaged in the battle that resulted in the deaths of 250 militants and the cult's leader. Cult spokesman Abdul Imam Jaabar said the cult is peaceful, denying that it has ties to the "Soldiers of Heaven," which the Iraqi government said plotted to kill senior Shiite clerics.
    ...
    Not only is this perhaps the most bizarre incident in almost four years of incessant violence that has ravaged the country, the government's version of what allegedly transpired raises more questions than provides answers.

        * How could a cult evolve into such a major threat without getting noticed?

        * If this was an obscure cult, why were government forces unable to deal with it on their own?

        * From where did the group acquire such a large cache of weaponry?

        * Given the deep sectarian differences, how can extremist Shia and jihadists both be part of the group?

        * Why would a Shiite religious group risk alienation by engaging in the murder of the clerical hierarchy, especially during the holy month of Muharram?

    These and other such questions indicate the government is withholding a lot of information. However, Stratfor has received some information that provides insight into the circumstances leading up to the battle.

    more... (at the link above)



    Parent
    This one is really ::bad:: news (none / 0) (#152)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:35:40 PM EST
    More here from Kitt yesterday on this... And there will probably be more to come. Patrick Coburn's articles are usually pretty reliable.

    That was meant to be a reply to (none / 0) (#153)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:43:33 PM EST
    Holes in his head... (none / 0) (#154)
    by desertswine on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:56:50 PM EST
    and holes in his socks.

    What's wrong with this guy, other than being a nut case. And why is he heading the World Bank?

    Check out the picture.

    Hey (none / 0) (#156)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 04:06:38 PM EST
    At least he spits on his comb.... that counts for something, no?

    Parent
    Must be (none / 0) (#157)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 04:12:21 PM EST
    Displaced Pinocchio Syndrome and the socks are symptomatic.

     

    Parent

    the socks are symptomatic (none / 0) (#158)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 04:31:52 PM EST
    of, ummm... "compassionate conservatism" - of course! Wolfie is a man of the people at heart. He cares.

    Parent
    ppj (none / 0) (#155)
    by jondee on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 03:59:28 PM EST
    I understand that you're a cowardly bigot promulgating bigotry in order to appeal to bigots.

    Otherwise you'd be equally blaming America and American society for the American Left and America haters that you're always railing about.

    Jondee - Wanna trade?? (none / 0) (#165)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 05:56:50 PM EST
    You know, if you want to trade insults, how's this one?

    I think you are basically an uneducated person who assumes that whatever you think is correct as long as two or three people agree with it.

    Your inability to understand that the universe doesn't care what your buds thinks demonstrates that logic escapes you, and that you have no idea as to how to have a reasoned debate in which both parties might learn something.

    So be as insulting and dumb looking as you like. Everytime you make some off the wall comment you prove my point.

    To illustrate my point I will close with the point that religions are not people, and all religions have had certain periods in which some have used certain points to do evil things.

    To help you out, here's a hint. Think of the Christians who claim that their hatred of Jews is based on the fact that the Jews crucified Jesus.

    That the Jews did crucify him is a fact. It is also a fact that this is absolutely no reason to hate Jews.

    Ta! Ta!! Lesson over.

    Parent

    Facts about Jesus? (none / 0) (#173)
    by Dadler on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 09:38:44 PM EST
    Assuming that he really was crucified at all, the gospels show that he was crucified (not a Jewish, but a Roman punishment reserved exclusively for those guilty of crimes against the empire), in accordance with Roman (not Jewish) laws, by Romans (not Jews), for breaking a Roman (not Jewish) law forbidding sedition against the Roman Empire.

    The notion the Jews killed him because he claimed to be the messiah or the King of the Jews is pure ignorance on the part of the Biblical writers or rewriters.  It's no crime in Judaism to claim you're the messiah or call yourself King of anything.  And the entire notion that Pontius Pilate, Rome's appointed henchman of that distant region, whose entire job consisted of two things -- collect taxes for Rome and keep the peace by whatever means necessary -- the idea that he simply quivered in the face of a bunch of riotous Jews demanding anything of him, much less that he gave in to them AND set some murderer free, it's all just plain old bad, poorly researched writing and obviously so, preposterous and fictional in light of the actual circumstances of history at the time.  

    Parent

    Dadler, That's so funny (none / 0) (#179)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 08:58:58 AM EST
    I hardly know where to start.

    I think I remember some Roman dude washing his hands.

    Anyway, the facts are that the picture painted in the Bible is what matters, not what Dadler and/or some reseachers thinks.

    Because that is what the Jew haters believe, and that is what  many moderate christians believe. The former use it as a reason for action. Many of the latter see it as a reason for "understanding" the "Jew haters" and  not acting against the haters.

    Now, can you explain to me the sudden loss of support for the Jews, sudden stopping of demands for the countries in the ME to provide women's rights by the various women's groups and the almost continual making of excuses.... retribution.... oil..... etc.... for the actions of the radical moslems and terrorist groups coupled with the almost constant criticism of the Jews, the Bush administration and western culture in general.

    Bring anything to mind??

    Parent

    Molly Ivins RIP (none / 0) (#168)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 06:17:26 PM EST
     Molly Ivins passed away this afternoon at her home.  We send our condolences to family and friends, and a whole lot of love to Molly.

    What a loss. May she rest in peace, or better yet keep up the fight from lands beyond.

    Molly Ivins RIp (none / 0) (#169)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 06:19:05 PM EST
    Molly Ivins (none / 0) (#170)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 31, 2007 at 08:38:01 PM EST
    From the NYT obituary:

    In 1976, her writing, which she said was often fueled by "truly impressive amounts of beer," landed her a job at The New York Times. She cut an unusual figure in The Times newsroom, wearing blue jeans, going barefoot and bringing in her dog, whose name was an expletive.
    snip
    She quit The Times in 1982 after The Dallas Times Herald offered to make her a columnist. She took the job even though she loathed Dallas, once describing it as the kind of town "that would have rooted for Goliath to beat David."

     But the paper, she said, promised to let her write whatever she wanted. When she declared of a congressman, "If his I.Q. slips any lower, we'll have to water him twice a day," many readers were appalled, and several advertisers boycotted the paper. In her defense, her editors rented billboards that read: "Molly Ivins Can't Say That, Can She?" The slogan became the title of the first of her six books.

    snip
    After Patrick J. Buchanan, as a conservative candidate for president, declared at the 1992 Republican National Convention that America was engaged in a cultural war, she said his speech "probably sounded better in the original German."

    worth a read

    I will miss her.

    Molly Ivins (none / 0) (#176)
    by john horse on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 05:47:16 AM EST
    I just heard that Molly Ivins died.  In case there are those who have never heard of or read Molly Ivins, here is a sample of her writings.  She will be missed.

    Nice link, John. (none / 0) (#177)
    by Edger on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 07:08:00 AM EST
    She was a great writer. I had never read very much of what she wrote, but this snippet from An About-Face on Iran, June 2006 I think is probably a good snapshot of a big roomy mind full of wit, compassion, blinding intelligence, and clear thinking:

    Meanwhile, there is nothing funny about Iraq, as we slide toward being just one more militia in the chaos. I had a slightly insane discussion the other day with a winger who wanted urgently for me to understand that the Haditha massacre is the kind of thing that happens in war. Whereas I was trying to point out to him that the Haditha massacre is the kind of thing that happens in war.

    I think we both got that massacres occur in war -- but for me, it felt like a "don't teach your grandma to suck eggs" moment. Why would anyone who hadn't lived through My Lai try to explain Haditha?

    I realize it's silly to let really stupid people upset you, but I have had it with the wingnuts who go about claiming that liberals are delighted about Haditha or want to use it for nefarious public relations purposes. Listen, twits, if you can't stop your petty little partisan political games long to enough to recognize Sad when you see it, then shut up.



    Parent
    And one more (none / 0) (#178)
    by Edger on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 07:29:23 AM EST
    from Now They're All For Bipartisanship, shortly after the '06 elections:

    OK, it's not the 19th century anymore, but it is always the right time to point out the emperor isn't wearing any clothes. Honest. There stands George W. Bush, buck nekkid. We want to help him out of this fix because he's dragging the whole Army, the country and the world down with him. But don't ask us to call those clothes.


    Parent
    Bush Targets Iran (none / 0) (#180)
    by Edger on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 09:43:16 AM EST
    Marjorie Cohn, January 31/07
    On Tuesday, the administration stepped up its inflammatory rhetoric.  US officials said Iranians may have trained attackers who killed five Americans in Karbala on January 20.  They also implicated the Mahdi Army, the militia controlled by Moktada al-Sadr.  It's very interesting that the New York Times characterized the focus on Iran and the Mahdi Army as "convenient from the point of view of the Bush administration."

    Investigators were stumped at how the attackers, who wore American-style uniforms, secured forged US identity cards and American-style M-4 rifles, and used stun grenades like those used only by US forces.  They are also confounded at the way the attackers' convoy of S.U.V.'s gave the impression that it was American and slipped through Iraqi checkpoints.  Wednesday's article in the Times cites a theory that "a Western mercenary group" may have been involved.  In the past the US government used the CIA to covertly overthrow governments, such as Iran's in 1953 and Chile's in 1973.  Could mercenaries now be doing the Bush administration's dirty work?



    The Jews crucified (none / 0) (#182)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 01, 2007 at 12:09:20 PM EST
    Jesus is an overly simplistic, igonorance-friendly statement of the same species as "The Sins of Islam". No accident that both came from the same person.

    Nothing like that ever happened in Palestine without the Romans say so, but pokerputz cant keep himself from making excuses for what power does even if he's discussing events that occurred 2,000 years ago. My advice would be to get out of the John Birch Memorial Library and read some books by actual, reputable scholars.