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Thursday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 07:10:00 AM EST
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Finally, an open thread this week. It's a travel day for me, flying across the country. It will be late tonight before I see an internet connection again.

Hopefully TChris or Big Tent Democrat will have something to say, so feel free to check during the day. Some other stuff:

  • Scribe has a new diary on current events in Germany and the culture of fear that he ties into our government's war on terror.
  • Is That Legal has a a World-War-II counterexample to Cully Stimson's outrageous argument about the lawyers representing the Guantanamo detainees.
  • Talking Dog has an interview with H. Candace Gorman, a Chicago based Civil Rights lawyer now representing two North Africans detained at Guantanamo, including one who the U.S. military itself deemed not an enemy combatant, a ruling overruled by the Pentagon higher-ups

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    Thursday Open Thread | 64 comments (64 topical)

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    World War II example (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by hellskitchen on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 08:22:32 AM EST
    Is That Legal has a a World-War-II counterexample to Cully Stimson's outrageous argument about the lawyers representing the Guantanamo detainees.

    That's why we old people are necessary.  We have long memories.

    but, while flying, think of this (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by scribe on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 12:07:36 PM EST
    Written up here,
    a nine year old, trying to get back to Texas from Seattle (why he'd want to do that, I have no idea) one day stole a car, got caught after a high-speed chase and then, the next day talked his way past airport security and the ticket agent.  Without ID and without paying.

    "He did his homework" on how to game the system.

    If a 9 year old can game airport security and win, what does that say about more sophisticated folks, like terrists?

    I love this kid!!! (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 12:57:31 PM EST
    Talk about an impressive 9 year old.

    The skills he displayed to "game the system" are skills that I think are gonna be needed in the future...especially for people whose "papers" may not be in perfect order in the age of uber-databases, massive bueracracy, and general paranoia.

    The kid restores my faith in the youth.

    Parent

    Always have faith in youth (none / 0) (#29)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:12:45 PM EST
    Just don't have faith in the instituition of Public schools. Humans are smart and very adaptable to almost any situation. It takes a very sophisticated institution to destroy this natural inclination. I guarantee this kid is either not enrolled in public schools or else is failing miserably with horrible attendance. Once that State decides to force compulsory school on him and takes him away from his parents, he'll fall in line with the rest of us automatons in a relatively short period of time.

    Parent
    I think my new hero.... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:51:50 PM EST
    is looking at a long stint in juvey....forget about school.

    But I wouldn't put an escape from juvey past him...this kid has got mad skills!

    Parent

    I did a stint (none / 0) (#36)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:57:51 PM EST
    as a Juvenile Correction Officer for about 6 months.  THey got to go to school there too.

    JDC's are just a little more severe version of compulsory public school. THey basically operate on the same philosophy. Its not about learning, its about following rules and listening for the bells. THe Skinner model of psychology - punishments and rewards.

    You're little hero is about to be reprogrammed. If the treatment works he turns it around and becomes a productive member of scoiety filling one of the cogs. If the treatment fails, he has a lifetime of spending time in incarceration ahead of him. Either way, his spirit will be broke.

    Parent

    Re: Either way, his spirit will be broke. (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 02:03:27 PM EST
    Some of these kids grow into people smart and capable enough to find a third way.

    Their own way...

    Parent

    Some of us may come around (3.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 02:20:36 PM EST
    through a combination of perserverence and random circumstances. Most don't, however. Many end up just staring at a computer screen all day, lonely, hoping to make a friend.

    Parent
    Nice Link.... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 02:52:53 PM EST
    and I'm proud to say I'm a 2 newspaper a day man.

    Parent
    My oldest brother (none / 0) (#51)
    by aw on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 08:24:25 PM EST
    was a wild, smart kid, going on adventures, getting into trouble.  He ended up as a government scientist with a PhD.

    Parent
    A Government Scientis with a PhD (none / 0) (#52)
    by Peaches on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 08:30:59 AM EST
    He's a success! Another cog in the machine.

    His chances of being a fully developed well-rounded human being are no better nor worse than the guy spending time in a prison cell, though.

    Parent

    Are you disappointed (none / 0) (#54)
    by aw on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 08:47:47 AM EST
    he didn't end up in jail?

    Parent
    Thats depressing.... (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 02:21:21 PM EST
    I hope edger's right and he finds a third way...

    Parent
    and this is what the public schools turn out (none / 0) (#55)
    by scribe on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 11:30:44 AM EST
    Defense counsel move for a two-day continuance of a civil trial in Louisiana, from Monday to Wednesday.  From the line-up of defendants, it looks like a personal injury/wrongful death from asbestos, but I'm speculatively inferring that.

    Why?

    Here's the 8 page .pdf which tells us:

    So everyone - counsel, jury pool, parties - can watch the Saints' game Sunday afternoon.

    Sounds to me like the "real" reason is probably something more prosaic, like, uh, the defense hasn't finished their preparation or something, and they seized upon a convenient excuse to get more time.*  Two days to recover from a football game seems more than a little extreme.  And, for that matter, the jurors are still going to have to show up on Monday.

    * Rule of thumb:  civil defense is vastly different from criminal defense.  Many times in civil personal injury cases - particularly those where the plaintiff's part of the trial will take up more than 3 or 4 days - the defendants' counsel won't start serious preparation (beyond making sure their witnesses are available) until after opening statements.  This, because the plaintiff goes first and has to carry the weight of going forward and all defense counsel has to do during that time is object, disrupt and obstruct.  Many times, the insurance company won't want to pay for lawyer time expended on trial preparation until after it's indisputably clear the trial is actually going forward and won't settle, and that's not clear until after a jury gets seated.

    Parent

    Pharmaceutical Industry Nightmare? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 04:09:01 AM EST
    Cheap, safe drug kills most cancers
    It sounds almost too good to be true: a cheap and simple drug that kills almost all cancers by switching off their "immortality". The drug, dichloroacetate (DCA), has already been used for years to treat rare metabolic disorders and so is known to be relatively safe.

    It also has no patent, meaning it could be manufactured for a fraction of the cost of newly developed drugs.

    Evangelos Michelakis of the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada, and his colleagues tested DCA on human cells cultured outside the body and found that it killed lung, breast and brain cancer cells, but not healthy cells. Tumours in rats deliberately infected with human cancer also shrank drastically when they were fed DCA-laced water for several weeks.
    ...
    DCA can cause pain, numbness and gait disturbances in some patients, but this may be a price worth paying if it turns out to be effective against all cancers. The next step is to run clinical trials of DCA in people with cancer. These may have to be funded by charities, universities and governments: pharmaceutical companies are unlikely to pay because they can't make money on unpatented medicines. The pay-off is that if DCA does work, it will be easy to manufacture and dirt cheap.  
    That's great news (none / 0) (#2)
    by aw on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 08:12:16 AM EST
    The government can easily fund clinical trials.  I hope they hurry up; there are lots of people waiting.

    Parent
    They could, yes... (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 08:25:08 AM EST
    ... and the pharmaceutical industry tends to spend big (enormous, really) bucks on lobbying for favorable regulations and laws, especially lobbying (bribing?) the FDA to approve, or not approve drugs for specific uses, and dragging out approval processes when it's to their benefit to do so. The industry supplies all the drugs that go into chemotherapy, and pretty much funds the entire cancer treatement industry, which is dependent not on finding a cure, but on ongoing, never ending treatment. They tend to lose customers if they get well... Imagine all the revenues and profits that would evapoprate if DCA works. Not to mention jobs in the cancer treatment industry (this is one of the kinds of points I think they would use to block DCA).

    Parent
    Have you ever heard of Curcumin? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 08:32:11 AM EST


    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by aw on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 08:57:05 AM EST
    I use it in cooking and making pickles.  But yes, I have heard of it's powers in fighting cancer.

    We may be barking up the wrong tree looking outside natural cures in favor of manufactured ones?  Our diets have become so unnatural that our guts can't maintain the microbes that boost our immune systems?

    Parent

    It does work for cancers (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 09:33:00 AM EST
    and you can buy concentrates of it in most supplement stores like GNC. But most people have never heard of its anticancer effects, and even ones who do like my father who has a slow growing cancer called carcinoid syndrome, won't listen when I tell them about it - because the first thing they say is: 'bullsh*t - if it worked my doctor would know..... sad. Apparently it blocks angiogenesis from starting, and stops it if it has already started., thereby causing tumors to die from lack of blood supply. Another problem is that because it is not FDA approved for cancer treatment there are no guarantees that what you buy is what it says on the label or that the purity and concentration is as advertised.

    So there is more than one way to cure cancer, but the treatment industry and the lobbyists are powerful and dominate the messages that reach the public. It's that old values disconnect (mis-connect) all over again that says dollars are worth more than people.

    Parent

    again, not so simple.... (none / 0) (#12)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 10:10:36 AM EST
    http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:s3D_F1DOxFgJ:niles.niehs.nih.gov/sbrp/rb/rbs.cfm%3FResbrfnum%3D 25%26view%3D%27%27+dichloroacetate+(DCA),&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9

    1998 RESEARCH BRIEFS
    Research Brief 25: Comparative Metabolism Studies of Dichloroacetate
    (Release Date: 07/22/1998)
    (Health Effects of Chlorinated Compounds- P42ES07375)  
    Back  

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dichloroacetate (DCA) is a chemical with seemingly paradoxical features. Many environmental scientists are familiar with DCA as a by-product of drinking water disinfection and a degradation product of trichloroethylene and perchloroethylene, two of the most prevalent groundwater contaminants on hazardous waste sites in the United States. Once DCA was recognized as a widespread contaminant, toxicological studies were performed in rodents to determine the chemical's possible health effects. DCA was found to cause liver cancer in both rats and mice; thus, it has been flagged as a possible human carcinogen. Although these rodent toxicity studies are significant, there is considerable uncertainty about how the findings relate to humans because the mechanism of carcinogenicity is unknown.
    What makes DCA so unusual, especially in comparison to other environmental contaminants, is that the pharmacology of this compound has been under study since the 1950s. As a result of extensive research into its clinical potential, there is a substantial body of knowledge about the pharmacological and therapeutic properties of DCA. Because it can facilitate the break down of lactic acid in the body, the compound is now an investigational drug undergoing testing for use in children with congenital lactic acidosis (CLA), an inherited metabolic disorder that causes lactic acid to accumulate to high, sometimes life-threatening levels in the body. The therapeutic doses of DCA (12.5 to 50 mg/kg of body weight) are much higher than the likely environmental exposures and, to date, few side effects have been noted. In addition to its clinical potential for children with CLA, DCA is being investigated for the treatment of ischemic heart disease, stroke, and malaria.

    Whether regarded as a potentially useful drug or as a potential public health hazard, there are still many gaps in our knowledge about the fate and metabolism of DCA in the body. Because few details are known about the biochemistry of DCA, including the enzymes involved in its metabolism and its mode of action in the body, it has been difficult to evaluate whether DCA poses significant health risks to the general population, and whether it is a safe pharmaceutical agent. To help resolve these issues, scientists at the University of Florida are conducting a detailed investigation of the in vivo and in vitro metabolism of DCA in humans and rodents. This is the first comparative study of the chemical and it will aid both environmental scientists and biomedical researchers in evaluating the possible health effects of this important chemical.

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 10:23:49 AM EST
    Perhaps a few things have been learned about DCA that weren't known back in 1998.

    Parent
    so? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 12:50:18 PM EST
     I'm sure " a few things" have been leanrned but what has been learned to justify rushing to approve its clinical use for cancer treatment without additional trials -- not to mention to justify the conspiracy theory that it is being suppressed because industry and government would rather have people die than allow the marketing of a safe and effective medicine?

       Do you folks ever wonder why when EVERYTHING is so obviouisly an evil conspiracy that so many people fail to see it? Do you really think you few guys are just more intelligent and perceptive than just about everyone else and the world's problems would be solved if everyone just listened to you?  

       If you guys are so obviouisly right about everything how come you are so abysmally ineffective at persuading others?

       

    Parent

    Speaking personally (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:49:13 PM EST
    As a guy who recently had decades of debilitating back pain cured entirely with a method/diagnosis that almost all of western medicine is either entirely ignorant of or, when they hear about it, disdainful and dismissive, I certainly know that medicine is capable of suppressing and ignoring things that can help many people -- especially when the proper diagnosis takes money out of medicine's pocket.  And what cured me wasn't any drug or physical therapy regimen, it was a diagnosis that modern medicine is completely in the dark ages on.  A diagnosis "discovered" by an M.D. who's worked at NYU Medical Cetner for years.  But he is for the most part completely ignored, as are the few doctors who know of his diagnosis, and getting research funded is next to impossible.  I had back operations, injections, treatments, MRI, electromyographs, all of it to no avail as pain continued unexplained by their conventional and unsupported structural diagnoses.  The correct diagnosis, which I learned from Dr. Sarno's book -- the knowledge alone being what essentially cured me -- is one that modern western medicine simply won't accept or deal with, even though it is so successful.

    Read HEALING BACK PAIN by John Sarno M.D., and his other books (the newest one is great) if you want one example of the medical industry ignoring a proven diagnosis for treating and curing back and other pain syndromes.

    Parent

    I had (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 03:30:28 PM EST
    similar experience with cluster headaches. Had them for 30 years and tried everything MD's and Neurologists had in their bags to no avail. Made a few small changes myself 8 years ago and have been clear of them since.

    Parent
    so? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Skyho on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 04:29:21 PM EST
    My mom put my dad on a diet with DCA when he started with skin cancers, Monthly trips to TJ for laetrile did not seem that effective.

    After ten months of DCA, he was pronounced cancer-free.

    He died at 87 in a time and place he designated.

    I have saved all the books my mom bought and read about the AMA shenanigans and must say that the American people, as a group, are pretty stupid.

    Even Europeans take better care of themselves.  Of course, they have a much better and cheaper health care system, to boot.

    Parent

    Where did she obtain it? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 04:35:30 PM EST


    Parent
    I believe (none / 0) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 04:52:18 PM EST
    TJ = Tijuana, Mexico

    Parent
    Yes I know (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 04:53:06 PM EST
    I meant the DCA...

    Parent
    Well, maybe in TJ too (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 04:54:54 PM EST
    But it is produced and used domestically for treatment of other conditions...

    Parent
    Edger (none / 0) (#48)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 04:56:35 PM EST
    I misread, I thought she was getting the DCA in TJ...

    Parent
    Yeah I can see how it looks that way (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 05:00:28 PM EST
    But I think he just meant th laetrile from TJ

    Parent
    yup (none / 0) (#50)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 05:01:32 PM EST


    Parent
    The Pharma Industry (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 11:41:42 AM EST
    Amazing that the industry is so lacking in imagination that it can't see itself as able to make this stuff and get it to market faster and more cheaply, and on a wider name-branded kind of scale, than anyone else.  They have the labs, the workforce, but they still can't see past their own narrow business paradigms.  There's no patent on aspirin either, or many other simple things.  But money is still made selling them.

    That aside, the DCA news is grand.

    Parent

    not only that (none / 0) (#25)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:01:44 PM EST
      but the entire generic drug industry thrives by manufacturing and marketing chemicals for which they need not purchase a license. OBVIOUSLY, idf things were as simple as some like to believe it would be done despite the interests of the big pharmaceutical companies because money can be made selling all sorts of things that are not patented.

       What's hilarious is the undeniable truth that if the FDA were to rush approval of new use of  a "wonder drug" and then it was discovered it harmed people, the same folks screaming for action and claiming it is a onspiracy blocking action would turn around and scream the government failed to protect people from a dangerous drug because it succumbed to pressure from greedy people who wanted to make money.

       

    Parent

    Where did you get this (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:14:35 PM EST
    "rush approval" conspiracy theoy from anyway decon? You trying to appropriate moonbat techniques now?

    Parent
    maybe here... sound familiar? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:39:32 PM EST
    ... and the pharmaceutical industry tends to spend big (enormous, really) bucks on lobbying for favorable regulations and laws, especially lobbying (bribing?) the FDA to approve, or not approve drugs for specific uses, and dragging out approval processes when it's to their benefit to do so. The industry supplies all the drugs that go into chemotherapy, and pretty much funds the entire cancer treatement industry, which is dependent not on finding a cure, but on ongoing, never ending treatment. They tend to lose customers if they get well... Imagine all the revenues and profits that would evapoprate if DCA works. Not to mention jobs in the cancer treatment industry (this is one of the kinds of points I think they would use to block DCA).

    Parent
    I'm still waiting..... (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:49:23 PM EST
    ...for your explanation of how you translate that into a "rush approval" conspiracy? Is it just the view from that side of the mirror?

    Parent
    Drug Lobby Second to None (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:52:42 PM EST
    How the pharmaceutical industry gets its way in Washington
    WASHINGTON, July 7, 2005 -- The pharmaceutical and health products industry has spent more than $800 million in federal lobbying and campaign donations at the federal and state levels in the past seven years, a Center for Public Integrity investigation has found. Its lobbying operation, on which it reports spending more than $675 million, is the biggest in the nation. No other industry has spent more money to sway public policy in that period. Its combined political outlays on lobbying and campaign contributions is topped only by the insurance industry.


    Parent
    Thanks Edger. (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 08:47:16 AM EST
    Re the cancer drug.

    We will now find out if the net has any power for good,or if it just wants to complain about politics.

    I expect to see thousands of articles within days.

    You might. ;-) (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 09:34:33 AM EST
    But only if you look for them. They won't come and find you - you have to find them.

    Parent
    Did you? I did. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 09:58:30 AM EST
    I just sent the article to a 80 people who are on my personal email list asking them to send it to their congress people, their health care professionals, newspapers and to forward it to others.

    From this one I would expect that at least 2000 individuals will have been contacted within 24 hours.

    If the net is interested in something besides politics, the MSM should be reporting on this tomorrow.

    Parent

    Great! (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 10:04:49 AM EST
    I hope it helps. The research on DCA seems very promising, and even if its anticancer effects get buried it's ggod to know that it is prescribed for other conditions - so if and when I need it it shouldn't be too difficult to find a doctor who will write a prescription - if I can find one who knows of it and will listen.

    Parent
    RE: MSM should be reporting on this tomorrow. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 10:16:06 AM EST
    google new search: dichloroacetate : Results 1 - 10 of about 33 for dichloroacetate.

    They are... be interesting to see how much more (or less) that news search produces each day for the next few days.

    Parent

    The Economist (none / 0) (#53)
    by aw on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 08:46:26 AM EST
    picked it up as well as a couple of Chinese news sites.

    Parent
    The search (none / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 12:11:56 PM EST
    now has it up to 40 results. Canadian and Chinese mainstream media have picked it up, on top of the Economist, whch IMO qulifies as UK MSM.

    But no US MSM........

    Parent

    I noticed that (none / 0) (#58)
    by aw on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 12:14:30 PM EST


    Parent
    Surprising... (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 12:17:28 PM EST
    ...isn't it? You would think they would be all over it.... <rolls eyes> ;-)

    Parent
    Still nothing (none / 0) (#63)
    by aw on Sat Jan 20, 2007 at 11:06:25 AM EST


    Parent
    Ummmmm.... (none / 0) (#64)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 20, 2007 at 11:23:59 AM EST
    Maybe decon or one of the others can explain it.

    Parent
    Jeralyn Accused by Frisch (none / 0) (#15)
    by DennyFCrane on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 11:15:51 AM EST
    Jeralyn has been falsely accused by Deb Frisch of "post[ing] a lie on her website in order to incite physical violence against [Frisch]."

    http://discovereugene.net/2007/01/17/mcveighs-shyster/

    Will the wackiness ever end?  Sigh.

    Well.... (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 11:26:42 AM EST
    If Deb Frisch is attacking Jeralyn Merritt then my opinion of Jeralyn has just kicked up another notch or two, which was difficult because there was no more room left on the scale. I hope Frisch has a nice day...

    In the immortal words of CharlieDontSurf: "The wacks do all the work... they are the wind beneath my wings."

    Parent

    Well, it only took her a month and a half (none / 0) (#21)
    by scribe on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 12:14:53 PM EST
    to make the call (the original post being from early December).  One has to suppose the toobz running to Casa Frisch are both narrow and clogged.  That, or there's a logic and processing backup somewhere between the Frisch monitor displaying information and the Frisch keyboard receiving input.

    Oh, well....

    Parent

    Condi supports the terrorists (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 11:42:31 AM EST
    Maliki disputed President Bush's remarks broadcast Tuesday that the execution of former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein "looked like it was kind of a revenge killing" and took exception to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's Senate testimony last week that Maliki's administration was on "borrowed time."

    The prime minister said statements such as Rice's "give morale boosts for the terrorists and push them toward making an extra effort and making them believe they have defeated the American administration,"
    can I get a "material support" charge? (none / 0) (#19)
    by scribe on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 12:03:12 PM EST


    Parent
    I hate... (none / 0) (#23)
    by desertswine on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 12:53:00 PM EST
    these guys.

    Iran Offer Snubbed.

    Iran offered the US a package of concessions in 2003, but it was rejected, a senior former US official has told the BBC's Newsnight programme.

    Amazing.... (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:03:06 PM EST
    And Cheney/Bush usually make such good faith efforts conducting US Foreign Policy. I wonder why BBC would run such a moonbat conspiracy theory hit piece on them? </sarcasm>

    Parent
    Because it's true? (none / 0) (#27)
    by scribe on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:08:16 PM EST


    Parent
    Scribe (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 01:11:41 PM EST
    Don't go letting facts cloud your mind now... try to focus, huh? ;-)

    Parent
    desertswine... Really?? (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 04:56:52 PM EST
    Well let's see.

    That was after they had rearmed their proxies.

    And then we have:

    Offers, including making its nuclear programme more transparent, were conditional on the US ending hostility.

    Uh, you do understand that doesn't say a thing about  NOT MAKING NUKES.

    Wanna buy a bridge in the NYC area? Quite old but in good condition. Cheap.

    Parent

    In case you were wondering, (none / 0) (#41)
    by scribe on Thu Jan 18, 2007 at 03:19:09 PM EST
    according to Abu Gonzo's testimony today:  "The Constitution does not say that every citizen has the right to habeas corpus."

    Some pigs are more equal than others, I guess.

    Unreal (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 12:06:48 PM EST
    Desertswine's link about says it all: what we're dealing with is chickenhawk warmongers perpetually in the process of redoubling the effort after losing sight of the goal.

    And down the rabbit hole we go.

    Bob Ney sentenced to 30 months in prison (none / 0) (#60)
    by aw on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 12:40:46 PM EST
    tpm
    California Dreamin'... (none / 0) (#62)
    by desertswine on Fri Jan 19, 2007 at 05:21:47 PM EST
    Open thread.

    Denny dies.

    Thursday Open Thread | 64 comments (64 topical)

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