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Ford Opposed Iraq Debacle

Woodward says:

Former president Gerald R. Ford said in an embargoed interview in July 2004 that the Iraq war was not justified. "I don't think I would have gone to war," he said a little more than a year after President Bush had launched the invasion advocated and carried out by prominent veterans of Ford's own administration.

In a four-hour conversation at his house in Beaver Creek, Colo., Ford "very strongly" disagreed with the current president's justifications for invading Iraq and said he would have pushed alternatives, such as sanctions, much more vigorously. In the tape-recorded interview, Ford was critical not only of Bush but also of Vice President Cheney -- Ford's White House chief of staff -- and then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, who served as Ford's chief of staff and then his Pentagon chief.

"Rumsfeld and Cheney and the president made a big mistake in justifying going into the war in Iraq. They put the emphasis on weapons of mass destruction," Ford said. "And now, I've never publicly said I thought they made a mistake, but I felt very strongly it was an error in how they should justify what they were going to do."

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    Suddenly everyone opposed this war... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Dadler on Wed Dec 27, 2006 at 10:43:40 PM EST
    ...Amazing.  Those of us who marched against it ever being started, who were labeled traitors and marginalized as terrorist-lover, we sure could've used the support WHEN IT MATTERED.

    RIP, I suppose.

    Of course he was loathe to go to war. (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Dave Barrett on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 06:13:29 AM EST
    Of course Ford would only go to war as a true last resort.  He was a combat veteran as was George H. W. Bush and as George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were not.  The only puzzling thing is why John McCain is so eager to send young men and women off to war.  You have to suspect that he wants to be president so bad that it trumps all else.

    When should we fight?? (1.00 / 3) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 09:56:03 AM EST
    I think McCain has now come to realize that there is no avoiding WWIV. And, once that is understood, then the question becomes, when should we fight. Now, or later.

    In WWII the peaceniks spoke of peace in our time. Of course that only gave Germany time to better arm and  conquer more countries that the Allies later had to retake at an incredible cost in men and money.

    We also know when Hitler went back to the Ruir Valley in his first move, his Generals were instructed to stop and retreat if the French offered any resistance. France did not, Hitler was emboldened and the rest is history.

    Which the west seems determined to repeat.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#29)
    by eric on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:37:36 AM EST

    WWIV?  I assume you mean to make reference to World War 4?  When did World War 3 happen?  Did I miss it?

    Parent
    WWIII was the Cold Wad (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 09:40:49 AM EST
    ..but it isn't worth arguing about.

    Parent
    Good for Ford (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by john horse on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 06:14:50 AM EST
    There is supposed to be an unwritten rule about former Presidents criticizing those who currently hold the office.  It must have been difficult for Ford to hold his tongue while Bush was getting us into a war he opposed.  I say good for Ford.  Knowing he didn't have long to live, he tried to do the right thing for our country.  This war is unjusitfied and a mistake.

    May he RIP.
     

    What did he have to lose? (none / 0) (#6)
    by bx58 on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 09:14:28 AM EST
    Of all the ex-presidents what did he have to lose?

    Daddy Bush isn't going to say anything against his own son. Clinton doesn't want to gum up the works for his wife. Carter is openly  being called an antisemite for being against the war...

    That would do it, sorry Jerry.  RIP

    Parent

    this unwritten rule? (none / 0) (#89)
    by Sailor on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 02:05:37 PM EST
    from St Ronnie right after Clinton was elected:
    HEADLINE: There They Go Again

    BYLINE: By Ronald Reagan; Ronald Reagan, President from 1981 to 1989, heads the Reagan Center for Public Affairs.

    [...]

    I had every intention of holding back any comments on the new Administration until it was well in place and its policies became clear. Unfortunately, the policies are already becoming alarmingly clear. With campaign promises dropping like autumn leaves, I can't refrain any longer.

    But I guess IOKIYAAR.


    Parent

    In war.. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 09:50:15 AM EST
    I love these self proclaimed war experts (more like fetishists) who never got any closer to one than Patton on DVD.

    You are the one (1.00 / 1) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:35:51 AM EST
    claiming to have the answer, which is to do nothing.

    And it requires no expert to know that when you do nothing when being attacked, you will lose.

    Parent

    do nothing when being attacked, you will lose. (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:40:10 AM EST
    And that's where retaliation comes in, right Jim?

    Nice to see you starting to understand.

    Parent

    Wasn't being attacked, demonized, hated,... (none / 0) (#96)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:36:51 PM EST
    ...and then dying on a cross with, not only no acrimony or retaliation, but giving his blessing to those crucifying him that was the foundation of something?

    I keep forgetting what group or organization sprang from this event, but I do remember it as being a seminal event that has influenced a few billion people in one way or another.

    If I could just remember that guy's name...

    Parent

    jesus christ ... (none / 0) (#99)
    by Sailor on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 05:15:33 PM EST
    ... I can't remember his name either;-)

    Parent
    So Ford... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by desertswine on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:27:54 AM EST
    opposed the Iraq Debacle. Well it would have been nice had he said something...  when he was alive!!

    This is only natural... (none / 0) (#18)
    by bx58 on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:44:33 AM EST
    "Every society honors it's live conformists and dead troublemakers"-Mignon McLaughlin.

    Jerry could've been a live troublemaker but the cost was apparently too high.

    Parent

    Yes... (none / 0) (#20)
    by desertswine on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:57:57 AM EST
    well now he is neither.

    Parent
    Just afraid to say it. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by eric on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:41:59 AM EST
    Apparently, Ford was smarter than I thought.  Unfortunately, by embargoing this until his death, he is about as brave as I thought.

    WTF (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:04:50 PM EST
    Kissinger way to think???

    In 2006, it was reported in the book, State of Denial, by Bob Woodward, published in September 2006, that Kissinger was meeting regularly with president George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney to offer advice on the War in Iraq.[24] Kissinger confirmed in recorded interviews with Woodward that the advice was the same as he had given in an August 12, 2005 column in the Washington Post: "Victory over the insurgency is the only meaningful exit strategy."

    link

    squeaky (none / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:41:38 PM EST
    So if victory is the aim, what is the aim?

    Are you admitting that the cut and run strategy will bring on defeat, but that you have no problems with that??

    Parent

    Well Yeah (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Wed Dec 27, 2006 at 10:59:08 PM EST
    He fired Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger, who was too much of a hawk for Ford. Ford believed in negotiating with one's enemies where possible and where fruitful, and in cutting one's losses in the face of overwhelming odds, so as to live to play another day.

    link

    Our country has been taken over by radical extremists.

    Radical extremists (none / 0) (#3)
    by aw on Wed Dec 27, 2006 at 11:15:50 PM EST
    who have absolutely no control over their egos.

    Parent
    Serves their purpose? (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 09:21:37 AM EST
    What is it that is always missing when negotiations are brought up by the press?

    For negotiations to work, both parties must want them to succeed.

    What happens when they fail? One side must accept the terms of the other, also known as surrender, or be prepared to fight.

    In wars, there is no walking away with the expectation that the status quo will continue. It won't.

    In wars, there is no such thing as continual negotiations. If one side refuses to move on what they know is a key issue, then that is proof that they are no sincere, and using the negotiations for time to improve their military capabilities.

    I wonder what world Juan Cole lives in.

    Ford was around only briefly as a player, and 30 years as an "ex." It is amazing that the Left now  pushes him out as an expert on anything.

    Oh, could it be that he now serves their purpose??

    Parent

    what negotiations? (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Sailor on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 09:34:39 AM EST
    There were no WMDs and the UN and IAEA were doing inspections and finding nothing until bush kicked them out.
     The had no WMDs, they had no WMD programs, they had no ability to attack the US, they had nothing to do with 9/11 or AQ

    bush started a preemptive war on a lie.

    Parent

    sailor - Some things to consider (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:20:49 AM EST
    Preemptive war? I remember Bush making offer after offer. I remember him going to the UN. Saddam did nothing.

    Why did Saddam do nothing? Who was convincing him that the US would not move? Was it the French, Germans and Russians, who had valuable construction contracts with him, and citizens who were making millions of the "Oil For Food" program? Did they convince Saddam they would prevent the US from attacking?

    And then there is the small point of every intelligence agency in the world saying that he had WMD's. The British were even telling us, later backed up by the ex-premier of Nigeria, that Saddam was attempting to purchase yellow cake, something that could only be used for nuclear weapons, and something that violated the terms of Iraq's surrender during Desert Storm.

    So, did he have WMD's? Perhaps not. Perhaps he used the time given him between the fall of 2002 and spring of 2003 to destroy them, or hide them, or just give them away. We don't know. But we do know that the Kay Report, much loved by the Left, said he had none, but did say that he missiles that exceeded the agreement, and was trying to get missiles with longer ranges. Kay also said that there was no doubt that Saddam was trying to get back into the WMD business.

    We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.

    Kay  Report

    Just assume that we had not invaded. We would have an Iraq with nuclear weapons that would Israel and much of the ME. How many would die from such a situation? Can you deny that he wouldn't have moved against Iran? That he wouldn't have given one to al-Qaida for use against the US?

    Parent

    What (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:29:51 AM EST
    a load of crap.

    Parent
    aw, your analysis is appreciated (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:50:33 AM EST
    But could you take a little time and tell me what you disagree with? I mean "crap" is kind of non-specific. Now if you mean "all" I'll give you one.

    Saddam trying to buy yellowcake? Well, that's what Joe Wilson reported to the CIA when he was debriefed after his infamous trip. Wilson was basing his words on the ex-premier of Nigeria.

    Link

    That's a sample. But to be more helpful you need to further define what it is that you disagree with.

    Or haven't you read enough to have any specific disagreements?? Just a kind of "don't confuse me with facts" belief??

    Parent

    Jim (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:00:08 AM EST
    You're trying to reargue stuff that was debunked years ago that only you and maybe one or two other people in the world still believe.

    IOW, what a load of crap.

    Parent

    Name some? (1.00 / 1) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:04:53 PM EST
    What specific point has been debunked?

    Did Wilson lie in his debriefing?

    Are you aware that the British have never backed down from their claim that Saddam was trying to purchase? And do you see how Wilson's statement backs that?

    Kay's own words, again confirm the point that Iraq was continuing to try and get back into the WMD.

    How about some specifics? I mean if you want to debate, debate.

    Parent

    Go read the archives, Jim. (none / 0) (#38)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:07:21 PM EST
    Today is your lamest day of trolling I've ever seen here.

    Parent
    Read Kay's words (1.00 / 1) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:15:38 PM EST
    Then you say that Kay was lying in his comments after the final report??


    Parent
    I read the entire link (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:10:06 AM EST
    I stand by my "analysis" that what you wrote is crap.

    Parent
    So, having read Wilson's debrief (1.00 / 1) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:11:13 PM EST
    you conclude that he lied to the CIA? He just made it up? And the CIA bought it, even saying it was good?

    Did you bother to research Kay's remarks beyond the interim report, and after the final report where he stated that efforts by Iraq continued... (See my reply to sailor.) I mean that took me less than 60 seconds.

    aw, you really have nothing to say. You just desperately want to believe.

     

    Parent

    Go pester somebody else (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:16:57 PM EST
    with your debunked stories.

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:22:18 PM EST
    Sorry, aw.. But I have this vision of you standing their with your fingers in your ears shouting... "I don't wanna hear it! I don't want to hear it!"

    Now. I know it is painful. I was where you are back in the late 60's. But trust me. Members of the Left will lie to you just as quickly as members of the Right will.

    Read and think and do so with the bias of the authors front and center.

    Parent

    Can (none / 0) (#46)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:24:57 PM EST
    you say projection?

    Parent
    He can say it fine (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:28:54 PM EST
    He just can't hear it. ;-)

    Parent
    Jim... (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:14:31 PM EST
    It is you [who] just desperately want[s] to believe anything to justify your support of bush's debacle.

    Parent
    Facts (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:19:00 PM EST
    My support, or your support or anyone's support has nothing to with facts.

    You claim that Bush lied.

    I have asked for proof, and that was an excercise in futility.

    I have provided proof in links. One to what an absolute opponent of Bush said.

    Can you refute, or can you just claim??

    Parent

    Fact (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:21:32 PM EST
    No one's biting, Jim. You're not so obtuse as to have missed that 'fact', are you?

    Or are you?

    Parent

    A double load. (none / 0) (#56)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:03:57 PM EST
    your delusions ... (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Sailor on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:05:44 AM EST
    ... and cherry picked facts have been noted so many times here that it would be useless to argue anymore about your lies. Don't quote from Kay's interim report, read the final report ... and stop lying.

    Parent
    From the mouth of Kay (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:58:05 AM EST
    But nothing stays clear for long when it comes to the justification for the Iraq war. Even since Kay's seminal testimony there have been attempts to reinterpret what he actually said. The media has been accused of focusing on a single soundbite, ignoring the ISG's findings that the Iraqis had indeed been trying to develop long-range missiles they were not entitled to, and had the means to reconstitute their weapons programmes once the international pressure was off.......

    "There were continuing clandestine activities but increasingly driven more by corruption than driven by purposeful directed weapons programmes," argued the 63-year-old former diplomat and sleuth. "

    Link

    My point was and remains. The net result was that no WMD's were found, but there us no doubt that Saddam wanted to get back into the business, and it makes no difference if some of it was driven by corruption. In fact, that is worse, because Saddam might have become too concerned to give/sell them, though I doubt that. But corrupt operations are driven by money.

    You have never been able to refute that point, instead you revert to personal attacks and using the "lie word."

    Parent

    You're lying to yourself (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:59:41 AM EST
    actually, he's trying to lie to us (none / 0) (#51)
    by Sailor on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 01:22:31 PM EST
    ppj's just a lying cherrypicker, where his ellipsis ends begins this line:"In person, however, Kay's message is clear. "I was convinced and still am convinced that there were no stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction at the time of the war,""

    Case closed, Ford was right for once and ppj is wrong as always.

    Parent

    I see no mention here of the fact that... (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 01:50:45 PM EST
    ...3 to 4 weeks prior to invading, Saddam issued an invitation to bushco that essentially said (I'm paraphrasing), "You claim I have these weapons. You claim you know exactly where they are. I invite you, any inspectors you choose, and YOUR CIA to come into Iraq and prove your claim."

    Of course, this didn't fit with the boy king's imperial designs or his wanton desire for Iraq's oil, so the invitation was played down by the press and utterly ignored by bush.

    For this alone bush should be tried as a war criminal.

    Parent

    How about this for grounds? (none / 0) (#69)
    by Sailor on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 05:10:50 PM EST
    Hi Bill,

    Maybe you were referring to this:

    According to Mr Hage, the Iraqis offered a package of "concessions" to the US administration:

    Allowing US inspectors to visit Iraq to inspect for WMD;
    Holding free and fair elections within a specified period of time;
    Concessions to the US in the oil sector and "business dealings";
    Concessions to help the Arab-Israeli peace process;
    Handing over Abdul Rahman Yasin, a top al-Qaeda suspect wanted in connection with the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.
    ABC News reported that Mr Perle had confirmed meeting Mr Hage in London in early March.

    Mr Perle was quoted as saying he was prepared to discuss the offer with Iraqi officials, but the CIA told him not to do so.

    Commenting on the report, a White House spokeswoman said Saddam Hussein had had ample opportunity to avoid war, and it was his failure to comply with UN resolutions that "forced the coalition to act".

    According to Middle East analyst Daniel Neep of the Royal United Services Institute, Saddam "was not willing to make concessions in public".

    "On the surface of it, it's a credible offer... In terms of how wide-ranging the concessions on offer might have been, there is a great deal that is new," he told Newshour.

    Another lie is here

    Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised. This regime has already used weapons of mass destruction against Iraq's neighbors and against Iraq's people.

    The regime has a history of reckless aggression in the Middle East. It has a deep hatred of America and our friends. And it has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of al Qaeda.



    Parent
    Exactly. Thank you kindly. (none / 0) (#94)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:21:32 PM EST
    Sailor, please don't use the lie word. (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 05:16:53 PM EST
    It leads to nothing good, sours the debate and proves nothing.

    Sailor, previous to that comment I referenced the Kay Report that said, no WMD's were found. So when you try and say that I was claiming they existed it is you who is misleading.

    You then challenged the claim I had made that Iraq was trying to get back into the WMD business.

    When I provided a link to a direct quote of Kay, you claim I am misleading and call me a liar.

    I stick to what Kay said in the link I provided.

    "There were continuing clandestine activities but increasingly driven more by corruption than driven by purposeful directed weapons programmes," argued the 63-year-old former diplomat and sleuth.

    BTW - The above quote was posted at 11:58, to which aw claims I am lying to myself and you accuse me of lying.

    I find it difficult to understand how I can be lying to anybody when I have quoted my source and provided links.

    I think both your, and aw's, intent is not to debate, but just deny and insult. Please feel free to continue. I'll just keep providing facts backed by links.

    BTW - I find it amusing that you are willing to believe that he says no WMD's but unwilling to believe what he says about plans and attempts to get back into the WMD business.

    Parent

    I (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:01:01 AM EST
    wonder where you find Juan Cole in the link or in this post?

    Ford was around only briefly as a player, and 30 years as an "ex." It is amazing that the Left now  pushes him out as an expert on anything.
     Your mind operates like a Rube Goldberg device, dropping things into chutes like "the left" and grinding out something that, well, something anyway.

    Parent
    Wonder where you find Juan Cole? (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:36:02 AM EST
    See the link in Squeaky's 12/27 comment at 10:59 in this thread. Click on it and it will take you to Juan Cole's home page and his comments on Ford followed by:

    posted by Juan @ 12/27/2006 06:38:00 AM

    I know you won't do it, but don't you think you should apologize for your inaccuarte snarky remark?

    Parent

    Okay, sorry (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:41:03 AM EST
    I'm surprised you actually followed a link.

    Juan Cole IS a mideast expert.  You are not.

    Parent

    Perfessor ppj (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:48:31 AM EST
    aw-our local perfessor has never read Juan Cole so he would never know "what world he lives in". ppj gets his Cole quotes from Hitchens and Pipes.

    ppj is not able to concentrate on anything that has more depth than soundbites and faux news talking points, so reading Juan Cole's writing is out of the question for him. He embraces the fantasy world that is currently in vogue with our dear leader.

    From Ron Suskind:

    In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

     The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

    Yes Juan Cole is in the reality-based community as well. He writes history based on  a judicious study of discernible reality. Hitchens, Pipes, and other neocons have discarded that idea as one belonging to the 'old world', a quaint concept of the past currently embraced by losers, that is losers defined by their, um... er.. creative powers of deception.

    I am not sure ppj really understands this bit of philosophical sleight of hand, but he sure regurgitates their most fashionable talking points on a daily basis.

    Parent

    squeaky - How do you know (1.00 / 3) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:30:56 PM EST
    I have never read Cole? The fact is I have, and the fact is that such a claim by you is just funny. But then you did tell us that your smear machine didn't need facts.

    Let me go straight to the point.

    I don't really care what the various authors/officals you quote say or do. It has nothing to do with my point about Cole.

    Cole has his own biases and they intrude and influence his view of reality just as they do everyone else.

    I understand that, since you are a true believer, you cannot accept that your gods have feet of clay, just as does the Right. But they do, squeaky. They do.

    Parent

    More trolling (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 12:39:24 PM EST
    not worthy of response.

    Parent
    bias? (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:04:20 PM EST
    ppj seems to be struggling with a new word: "bias". I can see why it is so complicated for you to read anything other than wingnut radicals such as Pipes, Hitchens et al.  Given that, I will concede: "reality" does have a left wing bias.
    "Well, I can understand the theory of wanting to free people," Mr. Ford said, referring to Mr. Bush's assertion that the U.S. has a "duty to free people." But the former president said he was skeptical "whether you can detach that from the obligation No. 1, of what's in our national interest." He added: "And I just don't think we should go hellfire damnation around the globe freeing people, unless it is directly related to our own national security. . ."

    Juan Cole

    Sounds like something ppj would say if he could stop drinking the kool-aid.

    Parent

    Bias?? Yeah, bias. (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:14:20 PM EST
    squeaky - Glad you want to discuss Juan Cole. Here is a link to a site that covers some of his conclusions.

    Now, if that doesn't help you understand what some people see as bias, we have comments from another site.

    BTW - Both sites may have a degree of bias in them.

    BTW - Since you seem to agree with Cole, who quotes Ford's belief that we should do nothing unless it is in our national interest, I am sure you would agree that:

    We should never have went into Kosovo.

    We should never even talk about Darfur because it is not in our national interest.

    We should stop all foreign aid to Hamas because that is definitely not in our national interest.

    We should stop all illegal immigration because that is not in our national interest.

    ...There's lots more....if you want'em.

    Parent

    Well thank you. (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:17:37 AM EST
    But you couldn't apologize without making a snarky remark, eh?

    Juan Cole has studied the ME for years. In years pasts Monks and priests studied the bible for years to debate the issue of how many angels could dance on the head of a needle.

    So I don't challenge his efforts, I just recognize his bias, and I don't find his conclusions very accurate.

    Here's a quote from a source that you will consider biased:

    And why would it be interested in a rumor-mongering attack dog (he once accused Dan Senor, the media spokesman for the Coalition Provisional Authority, of being an Israeli agent and claimed that Senor had ordered the U.S. military to attack Muqtada al-Sadr in order to serve Israeli interests) whose idea of a good source is Lyndon La Rouche's former middle east correspondent?

    Link

    Note that I acknowledge the bias of the link. But I also find the underlined sentence to be very instructive about Cole's research efforts.

    aw, the nice thing about being an Independent, as uncomfortable as it can be to be in "no man's land" with no supporters on the side, is that I can read and note the biases of the author and pck out, sometimes, something that I see as truthful.

    I do not defend the WOT because someone has told me it is good, but because in my life experiences and in my reading and considerations, I see no way that we can do anything but fight and win, or not fight an loose.

    You might try that process.

    Parent

    Go take a test (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:20:51 AM EST
    for reading with comprehension.

    Parent
    aw, your response proves (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:39:03 AM EST
    that you cannot  negotiate unless both sides want to.

    So much for olive branches... oh well I tried.

    Parent

    What's your idea of compromise? (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:41:25 AM EST
    Joining you in your delusions?

    Parent
    No, that's from the bush school of negotiating. (none / 0) (#95)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:24:27 PM EST
    OK General (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:11:29 AM EST
    Go git em, big guy!  Yippe yahoo! And when you are done don't forget to put your toys back in the box.

     

    Parent

    Continual negotiations? (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 09:34:39 AM EST
    Tell that to Woodrow Wilson. Or maybe Lyndon Johnson; before Kissinger and the rest of the the-presidency-or-bust gangsters sabotaged the '68 peace talks.

    I wonder what world you live in.

    jondee - You can also tell it (1.00 / 1) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 11:34:07 AM EST
    to the Europeans who negotiated for the past two or three years with Iran, only to be laughed and sneered at by Iran.

    You can also tell it to the ghosts of those died in WWII, including the ghost of Chamberlain who considered negotiations the answer.

    You can also tell it to the ghosts of those who died in Vietnam while the communists argued over the shape fo the table, and who left and returned several times, but only when Nixon returned to bombing the north.

    Jondee, you have proven that you are anti-war. That's okay. There are enough people who will fight that you will be protected.

    Parent

    Jim, you need to read some revisionist history (none / 0) (#50)
    by bx58 on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 01:03:06 PM EST
    AKA some truth. All of the historic cliches you churn out:"peace in our time" the table at the Paris peace talks. These are just snapshots.

    Read WHY we went to war with Japan,Pearl Harbor was a good excuse,it still is but it wasn't the reason. Same as WMD wasn't the reason we went into Iraq.

    anyone else remember when the topic was Ford? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 01:23:16 PM EST
    and not ppj!?

    We should have a little contest (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 01:54:32 PM EST
    to see if we can "abstain" from responding to the idiocy, (kind of like on Seinfeld).  Who will succumb first?

    Parent
    AW, you're on! (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Sailor on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:37:25 PM EST
    I'm still the master of my domain;-)

    Parent
    Still the master ... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Sailor on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 05:17:34 PM EST
    ... but I did give a link to Bill Arnett ... does that count!?

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#73)
    by aw on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 09:05:55 PM EST
    You replied to Bill.  So, let's keep an eye on each other here.  Give it your best, guys.

    Parent
    This is kinda like having a sponsor;-) (none / 0) (#75)
    by Sailor on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:27:52 PM EST
    I was so tempted to comment when I read another distortion, and then I checked down and saw your last post. Whew, thanks aw, I was this close to relapsing!

    One day at a time, right?;-)

    Parent

    I know (none / 0) (#81)
    by aw on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 12:32:27 AM EST
    It's hard to resist. One day at a time, that's the only way.

    Parent
    Oh, man (none / 0) (#83)
    by aw on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 09:55:46 AM EST
    this IS gonna be hard.

    Parent
    You don't have to (none / 0) (#84)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 10:08:38 AM EST
    go cold turkey.

    Cut down slowly... maybe 1 day a week or so?

    Parent

    I mean (none / 0) (#85)
    by aw on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 10:13:47 AM EST
    look at the material: link

    Parent
    Ya... (none / 0) (#86)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 10:15:04 AM EST
    you do have a point... :-)

    Parent
    To paraphrase Aldous Huxley... (none / 0) (#92)
    by Bill Arnett on Sat Dec 30, 2006 at 03:44:02 PM EST
    ..."nor am I the captain of my soul. I am merely its noisiest passenger."

    Parent
    I'm a 'Friend of Bill's" ... (none / 0) (#93)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 30, 2006 at 04:16:48 PM EST
    ... and I'll have my 90 day chip in no time;-)

    Parent
    LOL! And if you weaken and find yourself... (none / 0) (#97)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:41:22 PM EST
    facing temptation...just gimme a holler, I'll help.

    Parent
    Ford was a decent, honorable man, and at... (none / 0) (#55)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:02:05 PM EST
    ...the time I agreed with his pardon of Nixon as further action against Nixon then would have been truly bad for the country.

    It is the mark of a true statesman that he withheld his criticisms of the boy king while he remained alive, but it is just as important that his thoughts on Iraq be considered after his death.

    Say what you want about Ford, but he was a better president and a better MAN than Dubya can ever even aspire to be.

    Are you serious? (none / 0) (#58)
    by bx58 on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:39:13 PM EST
    "It is the mark of a true statesman that he withheld his criticisms of the boy-king while he remained alive."

    We're are talking about thousands of American dead and wounded and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead and wounded. What is so statesman-like about his silence?

    Did he have money invested in the war-machine? Why would a 90 yr old keep such mis-givings to himself?

    RIP I guess.

    Parent

    He held his thoughts to avoid the... (none / 0) (#98)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Dec 31, 2006 at 04:53:31 PM EST
    ...inevitable personal attacks on his wonderful wife and himself, at that time it was already too late to stop bush, and I rather imagine that he wished to enjoy his golden years without the acrimony and exercise in futility that would have resulted from speaking out after the horse had already left the barn.

    If you take into account that the war had been raging for two years at the time of the interview, does it not soften the hard edge of your criticism of the man, just a wee bit?

    If not, that's cool, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't recall seeing much mention anywhere here that the interview was long AFTER bush's Iraq war started.

    Parent

    hmmmm (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:50:42 PM EST
    It was a strange kind of "hanging," in which President Ford shortly afterward asked Congress to appropriate $850,000 for Nixon. Of this, $450,000 was allotted for expenses related to an "orderly transition." The allotment for travel expenses was $40,000 and there was $100,000 for "miscellaneous."

    It was a "hanging" that seemed more like a payday at the mill.

    --Herbert Block

    hullaballoo

    reasons for war (none / 0) (#60)
    by diogenes on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:52:18 PM EST
    Saying that it is not in the national interest to fight for freedom is the Kissenger way to think, so I'm not surprised that Ford continues with it in 2004.  

    I still don't get how the US removes a Stalinist dictator, suicide bombers follow this by murdering thousands of Iraqi civilians, and the only ones who are morally culpable are the Americans.

    It would be very Kissengerian to keep a powerful dictator of the minority Sunnis in charge of Iraq to control the country and the Shiites.

    Because WE started this war (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Dadler on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:36:47 PM EST
    That's why we are culpable.  At what point do you practice ANY level of self-criticism.  For heaven's sake, reality is looking you in the eye and you just turn away.  

    OF COURSE THERE ARE OTHER SCUMBAGS KILLING PEOPLE IN IRAQ.  OF F*CKING COURSE!!!

    But who started this idiotic fiasco of bloodshed?  

    We did.

    Who as a nation can we control?

    Only ourselves.

    Whose sh*t smelling should we be most concerned about?

    Ours.

    And trying to excuse our murderous adventures by calling Saddam a Stalinist Dictator (when we supported his murder for a long time until it didn't suit our needs) is just so much crap.  We are complicit with Saddam.  We are as guilty as he is in many important ways.  

    The ugly truth is just that.  And it's hard to face and look at.  Much easier to bark about other killers who merely entered the game on our mentally retarded invitation.

    Parent

    Dadler, nice histrionics...but (1.00 / 2) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:38:29 PM EST
    it doesn't past the rationality test.

    When we had two oceans and thousands of miles to give us adequate time to prepare, we would wait until we were attacked. 12/7/41? Bad, but no real impact on our ability to defend ourselves.

    Cold War? No time, but our enemy was rational and didn't want to die. So we had Mutally Assured Destruction - MAD - to protect ourselves.

    Radical Moslem terrorists who think dying will get them to paradise and 72 virgins?? Well, you can't let them make the first move.

    So what you must have, as Bush noted in his 2003 STOTU is a preemptive strategy. If you wait for them to strike, it will be too late for hundreds of thousands of our citizens.

    Now I understand that this goes agains your belief that we can talk anybody out of anything, but what can I say. You are just wrong. And talking about what happened in the past, the Iraq/Iranian war, whether or nor Saddam is a Stalinist, why we shouldn't have supported the Shah...etc., is useless at best. Whatever happened in the past, happened. The problem we have now is how to eliminate the radical Moslem threat.

    And the preemptive strategy, like early stage cancer surgery, is designed to kill as few people as possible while removing the cancer. Not nice, but the best choice for survival if the country, and at the same time, the best choice for winning while killing as few of the enemy as possible.

    So I hope you understand when I say that it is important for people to listen to your comment and say, so what? Dadler is a nice guy but his world view is totally skewed and I hope to heck our leaders ignore him.

    Parent

    Good to know passion is histrionic to you (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Dadler on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 11:13:31 PM EST
    Jim,

    Tim McVeigh killed hundreds, could've killed thousands, and he was homegrown.  The oceans still protect us from foreign invasion, and you know that.

    Stop being such a fearful little wuss.  Ever been threatened with death by an armed criminal.  I have, and I still manage to go out and live my life.

    Parent

    Dadler (1.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 30, 2006 at 08:33:24 AM EST
    I'm glad to know that you're such a hero.

    However, we're not being threatened by a criminal with a pistol, but a rather large group of criminals, loosely organized into terrorist organizations being supported by nation states and other contributions from individuals.

    So quit hiding by McVeigh and start to see the difference. That you cannot and will not only proves that you don't want to.

    As for invasions, you're living on the front line, you just can't figure it out. Or perhaps you can can just don't care.

    Parent

    How old are you, diogenes? (none / 0) (#66)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:43:47 PM EST
    Just wondering. I hear that the Army needs recruits. Isn't it in your interest to fight for freedom?

    Parent
    Good quesion scar. (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:39:51 PM EST
    Good question scar. How about you??

    Parent
    No one ever said that. (none / 0) (#76)
    by Sailor on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:30:42 PM EST
    Saying that it is not in the national interest to fight for freedom
    That's not the reason we attacked iraq. We attacked because li'l boots lied about WMDs. Please try to keep up.

    Parent
    The ultimate quiet American (none / 0) (#62)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:36:42 PM EST
    Thanks for speaking up when it could have made a difference, Jer. But who would have expected any better from of the most shameful actors in American history.

    Enough people? (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:42:49 PM EST
    Just not you, Jim.

    jondee..Now would be a good time to catch up. (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 10:44:07 PM EST
    To revisit a revisit, I served my country for 10 years.

    If I remember you have not served at all.

    Now would be a good time to catch up.

    Can we count on you??

    Parent

    Realism (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:54:55 PM EST
    Obviously Ford was a realist and opposed the neo-con notion that America can create reality because it is the biggest bully on the block.

    The radical right aka neocons have gotten it wrong on every count.

    For an excellent breakdown of the realist view that Ford subscribed to versus the party of war's theory that they can create reality (with a big stick) read John J Mearsheimer's essay called  Hans Morgenthau and the Iraq war: realism versus neo-conservatism.

    Mearsheimer writes:


    To call the Bush administration conservative, at least in its foreign policy, is mistaken. It is pursuing a radical foreign policy, regardless of what one thinks of its merits. No true conservative would embrace such a grandiose policy. Moreover, the label neo-conservative seems like a misnomer when one considers the scope and ambition of the foreign policies that neo-conservatives prescribe for the United States.

    Hans Morgenthau and the Iraq war: realism versus neo-conservatism

    Ford had (none / 0) (#68)
    by SeeEmDee on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 04:59:38 PM EST
    plans of his own to invade the Middle East, primarily Saudi Arabia, drawn up as a possible course of action if the Arab Oil Embargo of the early 1970's became more injurious to the American economy.

    Ostensibly the name of the plan was "Operation Petroland" (not very subtle, huh?), and speculation about it appeared in several popular magazines at the time...and then vanished from the radar screen. Now it is next to impossible to find any reference to it on the 'Net, but it is without a doubt a precursor to any contingency plans concerning the Middle East being used today. Something to think about...

    Hopefully, when President Carter dies (none / 0) (#72)
    by bx58 on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 06:05:26 PM EST
    he tells them to stick all the pomp where the sun don't shine. He seems to be so disgusted by this government I think he will.

    When Bush passes away will the cameras be allowed to film his casket like the ones flying into Dover?

    pp (none / 0) (#87)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 01:19:07 PM EST
    Adding to the fund of bloodlust and stupidity isnt "serving your country" (never mind humanity). You only think you served your country.


    He buys gas (none / 0) (#88)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 01:38:53 PM EST
    at the self-serve too, I think.

    Parent