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On the trashing of Jim Wallis

Recently Jim Wallis has been trashed at TalkLeft.  The threads are one thing, the main posts another.  We are all used to mindlessness being expressed in the threads, by people who show up often and seem to have time on their hands for everything but thoughtful commentary.  But when the main posts disparage an important progressive figure as a "useful idiot," an "enemy within," a "fool," and more, TalkLeft has reached a new low.  

Students of Richard Hofstadter will recognize what he meant by the paranoid style: a "sense of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy."  Wallis is, unfortunately, not the only one who has recently been subjected to this style of polemic in the main posts.  "Style has more to do with the way in which ideas are believed," wrote Hofstadter, "than with the truth or falsity of their content."  Small-minded posters who are hyper-sensitive about "ad hominen" rejoinders can apparently dish it out but not take it, another sure sign of the style.  One should think that those living in big tents would be able to accommodate diverse and even conflicting views.  Fuzzy thinking, contentiousness, and grandstanding are, of course, well-known impediments to living with diversity.

I have known Jim Wallis for more than thirty years.  I respect him especially for his protests against unjust and immoral wars (often including civil disobedience), his longstanding concern about the environment, and his persistent outcry against the poverty that kills.  While I do not entirely share his views on abortion, I believe they too are worthy of respect.  His stance on abortion is not so different from that of Nat Hentoff.  Mine is closer to that of Yale law Prof. Jack Balkin, that there are two rights to abortion: "The first right to abortion is a woman's right not to be forced by the state to bear children at risk to her life or health. The second right is a woman's right not to be forced by the state to become a mother and thus to take on the responsibilities of parenthood, which, in our society are far more burdensome for women than for men."  I think Balkin is correct about the limits of the state.  But abortion is also a moral issue, not merely a matter of "rights."  Like many others, I believe (mainly on moral grounds) that we should work for a society in which abortion is safe, cheap and rare.  To that extent I am with people like Wallis and Henthoff.  Be that as it may, my main point is that it should be possible to engage such people in conversation and debate without descending to overheated rhetoric and phantasmagoric polemic.

The Democratic Party will not easily consolidate its recent electoral gains if it continues to be perceived as unfriendly to religious people.  That is not only part of Jim Wallis's message. It is also a deficit that few are better positioned to do something about.  As a progressive Evangelical, of which there are still precious few, he has enormous potential to help Democrats make inroads into the Republican religious base.  The significance of that potential may be lost on some who frequent this site.  Fortuntely, it does not seem to be lost on the Democratic leadership, which asked Jim Wallis to give this week's radio address.  Excepts are included below.

We Need Greater Moral Leadership

Jim Wallis

December 2, 2006

I'm Jim Wallis, author of God's Politics. I was surprised and grateful when Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid called to say his party wanted to set a new tone and invite, for the first time, a non-partisan religious leader to deliver their weekly radio address and speak about the values that could unite Americans at this critical time. ...

Most Americans know that the important issues we confront have an essential moral character. It is the role of faith communities to remind us of that fact. But religion has no monopoly on morality. We need a new, morally-centered discourse on politics that welcomes each of us to the table. ...

Who is left out and left behind is always a religious and moral question. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the health of a society was measured by how it cared for its weakest and most vulnerable, and prosperity was to be shared by all. Jesus proclaimed a gospel that was "good news to the poor."

I am an evangelical Christian, and a commitment to "the least of these" is central to my personal faith and compels my public actions. It is time to lift up practical policies and effective practices that "make work work" for low-income families and challenge the increasing wealth gap between rich and poor. We must find a new moral and political will to overcome poverty that combines personal and social responsibility with a commitment to support strong families. ...

This week, President Bush met with Prime Minister Maliki of Iraq, seeking solutions to the rapidly deteriorating situation in that civil-war torn nation. Nearly 3,000 Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died. The cost and consequences of a disastrous war are moral issues our country must address. Leaders in both parties are acknowledging that the only moral and practical course is to dramatically change the direction of U.S. policy, starting with an honest national debate about how to extricate U.S. forces from Iraq with the least possible damage to everyone involved.

Our earth and the fragile atmosphere that surrounds it are God's good creation. Yet, our environment is in jeopardy as global warming continues unchecked and our air and water are polluted. Good stewardship of our resources is a religious and moral question. Energy conservation and less dependence on fossil fuels are commitments that could change our future - from the renewal of our lifestyles to the moral redemption of our foreign policies.

A culture that promotes healthy families is necessary to raise our children with strong values, and the breakdown of family and community in our society must be addressed. But we need serious solutions, not the scapegoating of others. And wouldn't coming together to find common ground that dramatically reduces the number of abortions be better than both the left and the right using it as an issue to divide us?

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    What do you really want? (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 12:04:55 PM EST
    who may be useful at reaching a certian segment of the population

    What is this reaching for?  To do what?  It always leads back to the question:  What do you and Jim Wallis ultimately want?

    your front as an advocate for Women is just that--a front.

    What am I supposed to be fronting for?  Are all the millions who advocate for women like themselves fronts?  And please remember that respect is a two-way street.

    The whacking of testicles is to illustrate that men would not sit still for the equivalent treatment that you  seem to be advocating for women.  Why would you expect women to sit still for a discussion of how to regulate their bodies for them?

    The fact is, AW, that the polarization the abortion issue has left many women without access to clinics in many states so they can make a choice. Having a discussion would allow the silent majority (WOmen) to speak and would likely mena more access for most women, e.g. SOuth Dakota.

    Who has caused this polarization?  

    As far as I can tell the referendum in SD has succeeded in maintaining the status quo, which is probably the best we can hope for there.  I don't see abortion clinics flourishing across the state. And this wasn't the result of discussion; it was a real fight for women.

    And Peaches, sometimes you write really good, sensible comments, but today it's so much gibberish that I wonder if there are two Peaches.


    Just one of me (none / 0) (#7)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 12:19:15 PM EST
    But, I agree with you sometimes and disagree others. That dosen't make two people.

    I'll skip the abortion debate, because we've already went round and round on that one.

    I don't know much about Jim Wallis, but I believe he was a vocal opponent of the War in Iraq. Since I am also a critic of this and all wars and I consider our military and violent culture to be one of our more pressing issues in America, I think he can be a valuable ally for reaching other religious right people who may be classified as Pro-life in the case of abortion, but also are anti-war. If they feel their anti-war sentiments are as, or more, powerful than their pro-life sentiments, they may be persuaded to vote for a pro-choice candidate. Thats called politics and comprimise. It reaching accross to those who have different views than your own and attempting to find common ground. Its a talent you are short on, but with time and effort, it is something you could improve upon.

     

    Parent

    A majority (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 12:25:33 PM EST
    of the people in this country are already against the war.  The tipping point was reached some time ago.  Wallis's voice is one among millions.

    Parent
    Theologicus (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 06:53:23 PM EST
    "When the Democrats became just the party of rights, they lost something, a moral appeal," Wallis contends.
    --Washington Post

    This from Jim Wallis seems to imply that he thinks that there is no morality, or at least no moral appeal, in standing just for rights. Rights imply responsibilities. To my mind one of those responsibilities, if not the most important, being to stand for the rights of others, as well as demanding them for onself.

    It is my opinion that rights do not exist unless they exist for all.

    Wallis' statement is perplexing to me, to say the least. What higher purpose can there be for a political party than standing for rights?

    What is there beyond rights that cvould conceivably be a prequisite for morality? What more does Wallis want? Power? Is that more important to him than standing for rights?

    I am interested in hearing what your opinion is of what Jim Wallis meant with this statement. Can you elucidate?

    Great Idea (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 07:56:56 PM EST
    A culture that promotes healthy families is necessary to raise our children with strong values, and the breakdown of family and community in our society must be addressed.

    So go and develop your ideal culture and impart upon them your strong moral values. For the rest of us stay out of our bedrooms and keep your hands off out bodies.

    Works for me.

    That's what I want to know, too. (none / 0) (#3)
    by aw on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 08:02:12 PM EST
    But abortion is also a moral issue, not merely a matter of "rights."

    my main point is that it should be possible to engage such people in conversation and debate without descending to overheated rhetoric and phantasmagoric polemic.

    Whenever clergy or politicians talk about abortion, it is because they want to do something about it, otherwise, they would have been marching on Washington with the women a few years ago.  If they don't want to do something about it, why are they talking about it?

    In your view, though, we should sit down and be respectful and politely discuss regulating our reproductive lives because we are, for some reason, not trustworthy to do that for ourselves; otherwise, why the discussion.  Of course, that assumes women are even included in the discussion.

    That it is a "moral" issue seems to trump "mere" rights.  If that's not wanting to incorporate specific religious views into law, just what is it?

    I'm not going to sit still for it, polite request or not, anymore than you would if I told you I was going to whack your testicles off.

    What more does Wallis want?

    That's what I want to know.


    Theologicus (none / 0) (#4)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:09:24 AM EST
    Great Diarey Entry,

    And as usual, you hit upon the usual nerves.

    Wallis is a reasonable voice. If we allow him to be cast as the enemy, instead of someone who may be useful at reaching a certian segment of the population then we (dems and Liberals) are no better that Rove. We appeal to the base and piss the rest of the country off, hoping beyond hope that we can win a 51% majority and call it a mandate to do what we want. By the way, reaching out to Wallis does not mean we hand him the keys to the democratic party. It means we listen to him and kindly disagree with those views and policies he advocates that we cannot live with.

    we should sit down and be respectful and politely discuss regulating our reproductive lives because we are, for some reason, not trustworthy to do that for ourselves; otherwise, why the discussion.  Of course, that assumes women are even included in the discussion.

    The fact is, AW, that the polarization the abortion issue has left many women without access to clinics in many states so they can make a choice. Having a discussion would allow the silent majority (WOmen) to speak and would likely mena more access for most women, e.g. SOuth Dakota.

    That it is a "moral" issue seems to trump "mere" rights.  If that's not wanting to incorporate specific religious views into law, just what is it?

    Its called society and civilization where all members get a chance to weigh in on any and all issues. Even women who are pro-life, who you seem to want to ignore. Regulating abortion in some instances is not automatically anti-women. I think everyone who is prochoice and Pro fetal tissue research would want to regulate Women from selling healthy fetus's in the third trimester for organs and tissues so they could support a gambling habit. Does this mean that most women can't makle good moral decisions and we don't trust them. No, it means we will not allow a very minority of women from making a bad decision is a minority of cases.

    we should sit down and be respectful and politely discuss regulating our reproductive lives because we are, for some reason, not trustworthy to do that for ourselves; otherwise, why the discussion.  Of course, that assumes women are even included in the discussion.

    That it is a "moral" issue seems to trump "mere" rights.  If that's not wanting to incorporate specific religious views into law, just what is it?


    I'm not going to sit still for it, polite request or not, anymore than you would if I told you I was going to whack your testicles off.


    I'm not going to sit still for it, polite request or not, anymore than you would if I told you I was going to whack your testicles off.

    My answer to that is that your front as an advocate for Women is just that--a front. You are sitting still. Many women in the US don't have the means to make a choice early in their pregancies. What are you doing beside threatening to cut men's balls off (very dignified and lady like btw,). You may not know this but Some men have balls, think ROe vs. Wade is weak law, believe in women's right to choose, and can still be a peach.

    Good Morning to you, too.

    Sorry for the confusion above, (none / 0) (#5)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 11:22:50 AM EST
    COpy and paste editing problems. I hope it can be deciphered without too much effort.

    Parent
    Just a clarification question (none / 0) (#9)
    by Kitt on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 12:31:54 PM EST
    When you say you've "known Jim Wallis for 30 years" are you meaning personally?

    I've known of him for as long as I've reading Sojourners, which is where I think I first "met" him. And that's at least 23-25 years ago.

    And we are still in Iraq (none / 0) (#10)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 12:40:57 PM EST
    Wallis agrees with us. Congratualate him for his stand against the war. Ask him to do more. Let him know we agree with him on it. Thank him for his efforts to persuade others who we might not have been able to reach. Ask him to reach out to others , so we can get the troops home. Keep working with him and others until we are out of Iraq. Don't focus on our diffences and get bogged down on what someone might ultimately want. If he wants to to have an influence in the democratic party's abortion debate, let him have his say. No promises have to made. There are a marketplace of ideas and democrats have consistently been on the side of a women's side to choose. There is no reason to think that will change. However, there will always be a minority of demcrats who are prolife. They are still democrats and agree with other dems on the majority of issues. You can choose to denigrate them, or respectfully disagree with them. I would choose to respectfully disagree. I think that is smart politics, too.

    Separation of Church and State (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    However, there will always be a minority of democrats who are prolife. They are still democrats and agree with other dems on the majority of issues. You can choose to denigrate them, or respectfully disagree with them. I would choose to respectfully disagree. I think that is smart politics, too.

    That is fine and OK. Everyone is free to believe in what they want, but when superstition aka religion enters into the political debate I part company.

    Many democrats believe in voodoo, black magic, and taking sacraments. Also many democrats believe that turning a doorknob six times before entering a room is vital to the survival of the earth. Those are personal beliefs that have no place in politics.

    The fact that they have no place in politics is why people are free to practice these various rituals without being arrested.  

    We had a revolution a few hundred years back, remember?

    Parent

    Re: Separation (none / 0) (#17)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:06:26 PM EST
    The separation of Church and State is one of the prime achievements of America and should always be one of the primary tenets in need of defense and protection if we wish to remain a functioning republic reaching for a democratic ideal.

    The Pro-life movement is based in religious communities and sometime radical christian fringes make this exteremly disconceting. However, regulating the rights of doctors to perform abortions and women to choose an abortion does not haved to be based in a religious context. A community or nation may even decide that in some instances this right should be regulated for purposes that have nothing to do with religion. However, being that we live in a society that is also, for a significant number of citizens, religious, we can never eliminate religion from having an influence in policy decision, nor should we desire to. Religion will always play a part in forming individual views on every subject. We also have a long secular tradition in America that is based in the separation tenet. I don't think it should be that difficult to strike a balance between the two and the Jim Wallis's of the world offer us one avenue for reaching this balance. Jimmy Carter offers another, and perhaps, an even more productive avenue.

    Parent

    Peaches (none / 0) (#19)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:11:00 PM EST
    I like you, I really do.  But come back when you're making sense.  This is mush.

    Parent
    And I really like you (none / 0) (#24)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:26:49 PM EST
    I really, really do. I apologize that you are having difficulty interpreting my mush. If there are any specific criticisms you could make, I'd be more than happy to accomodate you with a reply and I will attempt to remain clear, so I do not come accross as mush to you.

    If anyone agrees with AW that my arguments come accross as mush, I would sincerely appreciate it if they would support AW's claim, but I suspect I sound like Mush to her,whenever I make an argument that violates her good senses.

    Parent

    Yes, but it aint so...here anyway (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:16:18 PM EST
    However, regulating the rights of doctors to perform abortions and women to choose an abortion does not haved to be based in a religious context.

    It is only based on religious beliefs here in America and that is most definately the context of Wallis' postition. The majority of religions do not have a problem with abortion, just the most vocal one.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#12)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    we're still in Iraq and will be until Bush leaves office.  He's said so himself.

    Parent
    I'm curious (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 01:15:03 PM EST
    Why is it that no one seems to want to touch this statement by Wallis?

    "When the Democrats became just the party of rights, they lost something, a moral appeal," Wallis contends.
    --Washington Post


    It really explains everything (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 01:34:05 PM EST
    We know exactly what rights he's referring to.  He's just another single-issue guy.  He can say he's for the earth and against the war all he wants.  He wants to do something about those rights.  

    Parent
    It could mean so many things. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 01:48:38 PM EST
    I'm not aware of the context. I hope he isn't saying that civil rights are not important. I hope he is not a supporter of the Patriot or the Military Tribunal Act. I hope he is worried about the erosion of our Bill of Rights. If he means he thinks the Democratic Party places too large a value on our civil rights, then I steadfastfully disagree with him. I am not against having a moral appeal, however. I would even suggest that sometimes there is a moral appeal that trumps individual rights. Especially when, legally, a corporation is treated as if it were an individual. But, that is another argument.

    My interpretation of this statement, based upon what little information I know about Wallis, is that he is saying that individual rights exist within a framework  and structure of the community and sometimes the community, (in fact, always the community) places restrictions on these rights. The challenge is to make the process of granting and limiting individual rights as democratic and transparent as possible.

    Parent

    Read your original comment above (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 01:58:32 PM EST
    You seem to love Jim Wallis but you don't seem to know exactly why, except that you get this thrilling, prickly sort of feeling from him.

    My interpretation of this statement, based upon what little information I know about Wallis, is that he is saying that individual rights exist within a framework  and structure of the community and sometimes the community, (in fact, always the community) places restrictions on these rights. The challenge is to make the process of granting and limiting individual rights as democratic and transparent as possible.

    Individual rights exist in the Constitution of the United States of America.  Why do you keep forgetting that?  

    Parent

    Indivdual rights (none / 0) (#21)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:16:28 PM EST
    AW,

    Individual rights exist in the Constitution of the United States of America.  Why do you keep forgetting that?

    We have been interpreting the constituition ever since it was written. We will always be interpreting within the framework of our current society for as long as our government holds out. The We is the community.

    The Cosntituion is a document. As a document it has limited power. Like the dollar bill in your purse, the only thing that gives it value is our belief in it and our willingness to fight for what we believe it stands for. I am more than willing to stand next to you and fight for thes rights on 99% of the issues. Jim Wallis might be willing to stand next to you for 95% or 90%. These disagreements are important and I am not saying you should give up your fight, but it is good to keep perspective.

    Parent

    We (none / 0) (#22)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:22:39 PM EST
    no longer interpret the Bill of Rights differently for women than for men, any more than we interpret them differently for blacks than for whites.

    Parent
    Of course we don't (none / 0) (#25)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:29:25 PM EST
    I am tiring of this, AW. Despite my like/love for you.

    I never said that we did.

    Parent

    You don't like giving straight simple answers (none / 0) (#26)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:37:45 PM EST
    The Cosntituion is a document. As a document it has limited power. Like the dollar bill in your purse, the only thing that gives it value is our belief in it and our willingness to fight for what we believe it stands for. I am more than willing to stand next to you and fight for thes rights on 99% of the issues. Jim Wallis might be willing to stand next to you for 95% or 90%. These disagreements are important and I am not saying you should give up your fight, but it is good to keep perspective.



    Parent
    Because (none / 0) (#27)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:46:01 PM EST
    I believe that there are never straight simple answers to complex questions. In fact, I believe that anyone who says there are is an extremist/fundamentalist and in most cases needs to be opposed no matter what their view is if we wish to have a functioning democracy.

    As I have probably said here before, The only thing I am certain about is that there is nothing that is certain.

    Parent

    If you are certain (none / 0) (#30)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 03:03:10 PM EST
    that nothing is certain, then stop talking like this.

    The challenge is to make the process of granting and limiting individual rights as democratic and transparent as possible

    I'm going to grant your apparent wish to have the last word so you can get some rest.  Spread the gobbledygook to your heart's content.  I ain't buying it.

    Parent

    Phew! (none / 0) (#34)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 03:31:04 PM EST
    You are not granting me my wish. You even threw in Gobblegook to go with your previous Mush Assertion.

    Despite what you may think of me, AW, I am very anti-authoritarian. I have always been an outsider and an individual. I have a very hard time with anyone who wants to limit my rights. But, we have a point of disagreement that is fundamental and we can never get beyond without understanding where this point is. Because, in matters, of results and political opinions, we are practically identical. I just happen to put my body where my mouth is more often than you, I suspect.

    Our point of disagreement is on rights. I realize that the DOI said that God has granted us certain inalienable rights. Actually, it said the creator.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    Although, I disagree with this philoshically, I agree with the intent. I don't believe a creator grants us anything other than life, and even this is open to speculation. So when I say we have a process granting and limiting individual rights I am saying that these rights are not God-given, although it might be useful for the population to believe they are. You think that some entity gave you rights. I believe that only other individuals and institutions give you rights and if a certain right is important to you it is your responsibility to fight for that right, mostly by finding others who agree with you in order to persuade the rest of society to grant this right. Likewise, if you wish to limit another person's right, because you feel their individual rights are an infringement on your rights, then you need to fight so their are laws to limit other peoples individual rights. I think a democracy is a pretty good systenm for granting and limiting individual rights. It may sound like Mush and gobbleygook to you, but I trust most people have the capability to understand this.

    The DOI continues.

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    The radical spirit inside me loves this. This is what I mean by fighting for rights. You can sit back and talk about your god-given or even constitutionally given rights, but it is people acting collectively who ultimately secure these rights.

    Now, if you were really giving me the last word, you would remain silent. ;)

    Parent

    I originally asked my question of Theologicus (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:47:22 PM EST
    because of his statement:

    I have known Jim Wallis for more than thirty years.

    I took it to mean that he knows Jim Wallis personally. And I'm even more curious now that it has been more than a full day and he has made no attempt to address it.

    Parent

    Protest diary (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:58:53 PM EST
    I think that this was a protest diary of sorts, because theo felt that he got treated badly by BTD.

    That this has had so many comments may be all he was looking for to feel vindicated.

    Parent

    I thought so too... (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 03:15:49 PM EST
    ...on the protest angle.

    But I was hoping he would discuss.

    Parent

    nonconfrontational (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 03:20:10 PM EST
    I thought that your question was sincere, not remotely antagonistic and truly inviting. A real dialouge opener...... Maybe theo is on vacation.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 03:23:55 PM EST
    That is what I meant it to be. I though that if Theo knows Jim Wallis personally he would have a better idea of where Wallis was coming from with that statement than anyone else here could imagine from reading newspapers, you know? So I really wanted to know his feelings and thoughts on it.

    Parent
    I took it to mean personally as well (none / 0) (#35)
    by Kitt on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 04:21:01 PM EST
    and I think that colors Theologicus' interpretion.

    I respect Jim Wallis, though it has been waning somewhat. He is beginning to believe his own press. He may be a 'voice' for some evangelicals, specifically those not within mainline Protestantism. However certainly not in relation to Catholics or other mainline Protestant sects though they may respect him as well.

    Parent

    It's pretty hard I think (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 04:37:16 PM EST
    for evangelical religious people (of any religion) to NOT say "yes, rights are very important, for everybody. But, not everybody follows 'god's teachings' as closely as we do, so only we can know best what is moral, and we have to lead the lost sheep"

    Scary. Osama says the same kind of thing.

    Parent

    How can a person (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 04:39:25 PM EST
    internalize a worldview as completely as relgion makes them do, and step outside it long enough to see it objectivley.

    Is that even possible?

    Parent

    easily (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 04:56:21 PM EST
    It is called tolerance. It has been employed for centuries. Strangely intolerence of others religion usually has more to do with power and politics than piety.

    Parent
    Well, yes... (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 05:04:31 PM EST
    ...but, aren't they lying to themselves. At one end OR the other?

    Parent
    I'm only asking (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 05:06:01 PM EST
    to be difficult. ;-)

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by squeaky on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 05:13:14 PM EST
    Call it compartmentalizing or being OK with contradictions, I think people have been able to accept others while being ferverently orthodox in their own religious beliefs for a very long time.

    The framers of the constitution saw the big problem. It is when government, for their own political powermongering reasons get in the religion business. That is when tolerance ceases to exist.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 05:20:39 PM EST
    When you get right down to the core of any religion you find that they all really come to the conclusion that there are many paths to the same destination, and that there is really no difference.

    Too many peole never look at their own religion closely enough I guess, so they never understand this.

    And, political powermongering can't function without 'enemies'?

    Parent

    I dunno (none / 0) (#43)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 05:35:54 PM EST
    internalize a worldview as completely as relgion makes them do, and step outside it long enough to see it objectivley.

    I should think it would change you in some way.  Maybe they know that.

    When I was a kid I accepted my mainstream religion without question.  It was pretty easy, la la la, Jesus loves you.  Nothing harsh or scary about it.  

    But along the way, my faith seemed to just dribble away.  I think it started when I saw survivors of disasters claim that God had spared them.  Why not the others?  Once those questions start, it's impossible to turn them off.  New scientific discoveries make you think a little harder (no wonder fundmentalists hate science).

    My mother recently told me that my late grandfather, a farmer, was an atheist.  I liked that.  If it was good enough for him, it's good enough for me.


    Parent

    Once those questions start, (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 06:36:06 PM EST
    it's impossible to turn them off.  New scientific discoveries make you think a little harder (no wonder fundmentalists hate science).

    People who are truly religious, i.e. spiritual seekers, are searching for meaning (asking questions).

    It's the 'religiosos', the dogmatic power mongers who run the political power religion organizations who claim to have the final word and want to dispense morality by commandment from on high. Questioning is not very popular with them.

    Parent

    Here's an interesting post on the subject (none / 0) (#45)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 07:05:23 PM EST
    Jesus didn't stand a chance, nor did my mother.
    In the 1970s and early 1980s my late father Francis Schaeffer wrote many books including A Christian Manifesto. It sold over one million copies. Dad called on evangelicals to "take back America" and overthrow the "secular humanists," if need be by force.

    As it turned out they didn't need to carry out his revolution. Inspired by him they took over the Republican Party instead. They also became part of the entertainment industry.
    From my teen years to early twenties, I was Dad's sidekick. I even wrote a number of hastily dictated evangelical "books" that sold in the hundreds of thousands.

    I quit evangelicalism cold turkey.

    This Blood's for You


    Parent

    As a matter of fact. (none / 0) (#46)
    by Kitt on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 07:30:06 PM EST
    I just finished a book he cowrote with someone:

    AWOL-The Unexcused Absence of America's Upper Classes From Military Service and How It Hurts Our Country.

    Parent

    I'd never heard of him before (none / 0) (#49)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 08:37:14 PM EST
    I'm looking forward to reading more.

    Parent
    Good stuff, aw. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 07:32:09 PM EST
    Thanks for that. Great post at HuffPo

    Frank Schaeffer seems like an interesting author to watch. His website is here, and he also wrote this for SFGate:

    With God on their side

    Many secular and/or moderately religious people just don't feel comfortable saying things that might offend religiously fervent believers. On the other hand, fundamentalists equate criticism of their theology and/or politics with blasphemy. They're sure they're on a mission from God.

    Perhaps this weird convergence of liberal tolerance and fundamentalist absolutism offers an explanation as to why fundamentalists dominate our world. Holy warriors confront tolerant folks who believe that all religions are fine, or at least equally irrelevant. Tolerant people have trouble saying any beliefs are bad.
    ...
    The final irony of fundamentalism, and the scholastic Catholicism represented by the new pope, is that fundamentalists turn out to be rationalists unwilling to abandon any part of their intellectual systems to embrace the mystery of spirituality.

    That last bit sounds an awful lot like: How can a person internalize a worldview as completely as relgion makes them do, and step outside it long enough to see it objectivley... Is that even possible?

    Parent

    Why, (none / 0) (#48)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 08:33:56 PM EST
    yes, it does, doesn't it?

    Parent
    and (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 08:56:36 PM EST
    why fundamentalists dominate our world. Holy warriors confront tolerant folks who believe that all religions are fine, or at least equally irrelevant. Tolerant people have trouble saying any beliefs are bad.

    But I think that it's long, long, long past time that tolerant people started speaking up to this kind of crap, because what it really is, what it really boils down to in the final analysis, is that the holy rollers are so insulting that they want you and me to be so tolerant and open minded that we will tolerate and be open minded to voluntarily becoming intolerant and closing or own minds to appease them.

    F*CK THEM. I have never had any problem offending the most offensive people in the world, the right wingnut bushco racist terrorists, and I'm not about to stop for the holy rollers - the religiosos - who support them. They are NOT the truly religious who do deserve respect. And they know it. When they cry and whine that they are, they LIE.

    Parent

    Yes! Yes! (none / 0) (#53)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 09:07:04 PM EST
    They're bullies. [Bounces up and down on exercise ball]

    Parent
    Eleutherophobia (none / 0) (#50)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 08:56:24 PM EST
    Certainties are what unite all fundamentalists: the fear of disorder and the unknown -- in other words, the fear of freedom.

    They fit right in with those mentally ill who vote for authoritarians.  No wonder it was so easy to merge with the Republican party.

    Parent

    BINGO (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 09:00:29 PM EST
    You got it.

    Parent
    Turning my world upside down (none / 0) (#54)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 09:21:01 PM EST
    James Taylor sang these words long ago in an entirely different context, but there are five lines in the song that I think apply for the holy rollers. They should have a hard time misunderstanding::
    Go away then, damn you,
    Go on and do as you please,
    You aint gonna see me gettin down on my knees.
    I'm undecided, and your hearts been divided,
    You've been turning my world upside down.

    --James Taylor



    Parent
    Our Father Who Art in Heaven (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 09:30:49 PM EST
    Please make these nutcases go away.

    Thanks,
    Amen

    Parent

    Heh! (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 09:33:33 PM EST
    I love it. The perfect prayer!

    Good night. :-)

    Parent

    Eleutherophobots? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 07:26:18 AM EST
    Evangelical Eleutherophobots

    Notes on Erich Fromm's Fear of Freedom:

    The need to avoid "moral isolation" - to relate to one's society and culture "is.. rooted.. in the very essence of the human mode and practice of life." ( Fromm, E. 1942 p.9)

    According to Fromm, the most decisive moment in history is the identification of "self" as opposed to "nature". At this point people become responsible for their own fate - At this point they become afraid - the "fear of freedom" begins at the point of recognizing ones own responsibility for one's own fate. (See chapter 2: The Emergence of the Individual and the Ambiguity of Freedom)

    This process of "individuation" reached its peak in modern history in the centuries between the Reformation and the present. ( Fromm, E. 1942 p.9)

    Historically there have been two ways of resolving the tension:

    A) by taking responsibility for self within a context of reason (Renaissance liberalism in its best sense)

    B) Abandoning the self. Retreat into "sado-masochistic dependence". This is the repressed form of the instinct to relate to other people it takes the cultural form of fascism

    Erich Fromm:

    Fromm believed that freedom was an aspect of human nature that we either embrace or escape. He observed that embracing our freedom of will was healthy, where as escaping freedom, through the use of escape mechanisms, was the root of psychological issues. Three main escape mechanisms that Fromm outlined are automaton conformity, authoritarianism, and destructiveness. Automaton conformity is changing one's ideal self to what is perceived as the preferred type of personality of society, losing one's true self. The use of automaton conformity displaces the burden of choice from the self to society. Authoritarianism is allowing oneself to be controlled by another. This removes the freedom of choice almost entirely by submitting that freedom to someone else. Lastly, destructiveness is any process which attempts to eliminate others or the world as a whole to escape freedom. Fromm said that "the destruction of the world is the last, almost desperate attempt to save myself from being crushed by it"


    Parent
    Has (none / 0) (#58)
    by aw on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 08:56:20 AM EST
    there ever been any kind of freedom movement, a human potential movement, if you will, that hasn't been limited, squashed or perverted?  It's kind of discouraging, isn't it? It's like no one will be free until everyone is free.  It's going to take a long time, if it ever happens.  No wonder we hope for an afterlife.

    Parent
    Seems that way sometimes, yeah (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:17:44 AM EST
    But you know, I kind of feel and think that in a sense everyone is free already, and that it's just that many people either don't know it, or have forgotten that they knew it. Am I making sense here?

    I relate it in my own mind to the 'hallucination of separateness' that Watts talks about. It's a hallucination. There is no separateness. If you or I  is free, then everyone is? If we are not then no one is. One thing we keep forgetting is that real freedom is psychological? Erich Fromm? Ultimate responsibility?

    No?

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by aw on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:42:03 AM EST
    You always make sense.  It's like that mobius strip illustration.  It undulates with separateness/unseparateness, free/unfree.  It's all part of the same thing.

    Parent
    Life is a strange place isn't it? (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:52:28 AM EST
    Like that mobius strip that has only one side but appears to have two, I guess we can't know freedom without having it's opposite to contrast our freedom with. I am free in some ways and probably not free in other ways.

    I found Watts' book in a used book store almost 30 years ago. The longer I've thought about what he had to say the more and more I feel like it was the biggest secret in the world just waiting to be found, but always there, right in front of my nose, so close it was hard to see.

    And he was just re-interpreting something that has been known for thousands upon thousands of years, that we all know, but just forgot that we know.

    Parent

    I read (none / 0) (#63)
    by aw on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:47:59 AM EST
    Fromm's Art of Loving 30 years ago, but haven't touched it since then.  I'd completely forgotten about it.

    Speaking of life is a strange place, I'm sorry Theologicus seems to have disappeared.  I wonder if he's checked back at all to see what a discussion he started.

    I'm off to other strange places for a while.  Duty calls. I'll probably be back this evening.  This is a most addictive place, isn't it?  TTYL

    Parent

    Have a good (none / 0) (#64)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:49:21 AM EST
    mobius kind of day. ;-)

    Parent
    I just wanna (none / 0) (#100)
    by Patrick on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:46:23 PM EST
    see how thin the thread can get...Please ignore this comment~  

    Parent
    All (none / 0) (#101)
    by aw on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:48:22 PM EST
    you have to do is select "Parent" to read it normally.

    Parent
    It's a hallucination. There is no separateness. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:37:15 AM EST
    Alan Watts: The Book (On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are)
    Inside Information
          The root of the matter is the way in which we feel and conceive ourselves as human beings, our sensation of being alive, of individual existence and identity. We suffer from a hallucination, from a false and distorted sensation of our own existence as living organisms- Most of us have the sensation that "I myself" is a separate center of feeling and action, living inside and bounded by the physical body--a center which "confronts an "external" world of people and things, making contact through the senses with a universe both alien and strange. Everyday figures of speech reflect this illusion. "I came into this world." "You must face reality." "The conquest of nature."

           This feeling of being lonely and very temporary visitors in the universe is in flat contradiction to everything known about man (and all other living organisms) in the sciences. We do not "come into" this world; we come out of it, as leaves from a tree. As the ocean "waves," the universe "peoples." Every individual is an expression of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe. This fact is rarely, if ever, experienced by most individuals. Even those who know it to be true in theory do not sense or feel it, but continue to be aware of themselves as isolated "egos" inside bags of skin.

           The first result of this illusion is that our attitude to the world "outside" us is largely hostile.
    ...
           We do not need a new religion or a new bible. We need a new experience--a new feeling of what it is to be "I." The lowdown (which is, of course, the secret and profound view) on life is that our normal sensation of self is a hoax or, at best, a temporary role that we are playing, or have been conned into playing-- with our own tacit consent, just as every hypnotized person is basically willing to be hypnotized The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego.



    Parent
    I know as much about Wallis (none / 0) (#18)
    by Peaches on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:09:34 PM EST
    as you, AW. And I am not afraid to admit that. I am making my comments based on what I have learned from BTD, Theo and Kitt here at TL. I also remember reading an editorial about him and his influence on liberal thinking evangelical christians around election time.

    To support what I have learned from these brief encounters should not be interpreted that I love him. OT at least that I love him anymore than I love you.

    Okay (none / 0) (#23)
    by aw on Mon Dec 04, 2006 at 02:26:43 PM EST
    I give up.  Just so you don't love him any more than you love me.

    Parent
    Tolerance (none / 0) (#65)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:51:10 AM EST
    I think we can all agree that there is a right wing fundamentalist movement that we need to be a gaurd against in this country. I have a fear of these groups that rivals any fundamentalist group in the world. I also have no tolerance for these authoritarian movements, and join Edger in saying F#$% them. Tolerance does not mean that people should be apathetic towards threats on their life, health, or civil rights. I have zero tolerance for the intolerent.

    But, it seems to me that we need to be very careful when we enter into this intorleant area. We have to be careful our intolerance for people who are not tolerant does not end up targeting others as collateral damage. I fear this is what is being done against Wallis. Our intorance for authoritarianism is justifiable. We have made a connection of evangelicalism with authoritarianism/fundamentalism. I am not sure this is justifiable.

    The one issue that we seem to justify this connection between evangelicalism or religion and authoritarianism/fundamentalism is the abortion issue. From above here our Wallis words.

    A culture that promotes healthy families is necessary to raise our children with strong values, and the breakdown of family and community in our society must be addressed. But we need serious solutions, not the scapegoating of others. And wouldn't coming together to find common ground that dramatically reduces the number of abortions be better than both the left and the right using it as an issue to divide us?
    [emphasis mine]

    Why not take Wallis for hiw words. He is asking for common ground. If we say there is no common ground, who is being intolerant without justification? Who is the fundamentalist/extremist/authoritarian?

    Can we dramatically reduce the number of abortions while prreserving a women's right to choose? To be honest, my position on the overall number of abortions is pretty nuetral, but I think a women's right to choose an abortion is a fundamental right that needs to be preserved. I also recognize that there are some circumstances where this right should be regulated. He has offerred some common ground on an issue he and many others feel is important. Can we accommodate him? Perhaps, we can't. But we can certainly have a discussion with him as a testimony to our tolerance.

    He is asking to meet on some common ground. He is asking that we not let an issue such as abortion be such a divisive issue, so we can come together and solve larger problems (at least in my view) in the world such as the reduction of War and the expenditures on our military establishment, the elimination of poverty, the preservation of our bill of rights (I hope), environmental issues (global warming/climate change), etc. He has suggested some common ground to meet on. Can we be creative enough to figure out a means for reaching this common ground?

    Common Ground? (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:37:27 PM EST
    He is asking for common ground. If we say there is no common ground, who is being intolerant without justification? Who is the fundamentalist/extremist/authoritarian?

    I am stuck on this point that you keep oing back to.
    Common ground? So if all his people are for closing shops on tuesday because god has told them so he has no business trying to make this a US law.

    Keeping abortions down"

    The Democrats should set forth proposals that aim to reduce that number by at least half. Such a campaign could emphasize adoption reform, health care, and child care; combating teenage pregnancy and sexual abuse; improving poor and working women's incomes; and supporting reasonable restrictions on abortion ...  Such a program could help create some much-needed common ground.

    This is exactly what Bush has done. The only thing left out is information on birth control, and in Bush world if there is any information about that the funding gets cut.

    The heavy handed religious approach is a failure. That approach is fine for the flock of those converted but it has no business in politics and US law.

    The common ground. Provide early education about sex and how to protect yourself from pregnancy and STD's at the onset of puberty. And if pregnanct should happen, provide safe, private, and dogma free clinics to terminate the pregnancy.  That has proven to be the #1 way to keep unwanted pregnancy down. I am afraid that all the religious nuts consider this approach immoral. If the woman wants to carry the pregnancy to term and put it up for adoption, there are plenty of outfits that will help her on that. No mystery there.

    Parent

    Evangelism (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:18:38 AM EST
    I have never had any problem offending the most offensive people in the world, the right wingnut bushco racist terrorists, and I'm not about to stop for the holy rollers - the religiosos - who support them. They are NOT the truly religious who do deserve respect.

    I don't know which Wallis is. Religioso? Or truly religious seeker?

    This statement, especially the word just, leads me to lean to thinking he is the former.:

    "When the Democrats became just the party of rights, they lost something, a moral appeal," Wallis contends.

    Evangelism itself is suspicious to me.

    Is the belief system so weak, and their integrity so weak, that they need to convince others to follow it, and them, to justify themselves?

    Death by a thousand cuts (none / 0) (#67)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:30:17 AM EST
    asking that we not let an issue such as abortion be such a divisive issue, so we can come together and solve larger problems

    Sounds to me like "Let it slide. Give me my way on abortion (or some other issue), and I'll talk to you about other issues"

    If that is what Wallis is saying, there is no common ground, there is only death by a thousand cuts.

    IOW (none / 0) (#68)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:32:01 AM EST
    The Great Compromise:
    ...much to my surprise
    When I opened my eyes
    I was a victim of the great compromise


    Re: Compromise (none / 0) (#71)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:47:10 AM EST
    Politics is compromise. It is involves individuals and interest groups reaching accross to each other in order to find common ground and solve problems facing the community. When politcs fails and compromise cannot be reached (usually, because the two groups negotiating, negotiate on principal and refuse to compromise--iow, they are fundamentalists), then we have war.

    Parent
    I am not attacking you, Peaches (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:36:00 AM EST
    But I am being purposely provocative. This is how I feel about evangelism.

    Edger (none / 0) (#70)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:38:11 AM EST
    You surprise me. You are hung up on one sentence. That sentence alone seems to be damning, if read it as saying . I suggest you read some Wendell Berry, because I hear a lot of him in Wallis words. Berry puts the community ahead of the individual, but when he does this, the individual is allowed to blossom instead of becoming an automaton. We have replaced the community with the Public in our nation. The Public is opposed to the individual. The community embraces the individual. There are many reasons for the destruction of the community in America. Wallis might focus on family values and morals. I would point to economic factors. But, we can agree that communities all over America have fallen a part and the need to be rebuilt.

    If you put the sentence of Wallis you quote above into the overall context of his words Theo provides in We Need Greater Moral Leadership, then it is not as offensive. Your intolerance of Wallis smacks of authoritarism/fundamentalism to me.

    I don't know which Wallis is. Religioso? Or truly religious seeker?

    He doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. He may be just interested in people and community and he uses Jesus's teachings as a guide for making better communities.


    Is the belief system so weak, and their integrity so weak, that they need to convince others to follow it, and them, to justify themselves?

    I don't hear him saying that we all have to become Envangelicals. I hear him reaching accross to others to find common ground in an attempt to work together to solve some big problems facing us. Maybe he isn't sincere, but I still would want to listen to him, because I share his stated concerns for the elimination of poverty, the reduction of war, and environmental problems. If he can help solve these problems and convince others of the necessity for solving these problems, then in my opinion he is doing good work, whether he is an evangelical or not.

    I wonder, Edger, How come you can be so tolerant of Muslim's when commenters such as Jim lump attempt to paint every Muslim as a fanatical Muslim Terrorist, but you cannot extend the same tolerance to evangelicals?

    This... (none / 0) (#76)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:11:02 PM EST
    How come you can be so tolerant of Muslim's when commenters such as Jim lump attempt to paint every Muslim as a fanatical Muslim Terrorist, but you cannot extend the same tolerance to evangelicals?

    ... is disingenuous, and a misrepresentation of what I said.

    Tolerance is something to extend to true religious people, not to the religiosos, or the jihadists.

    Parent

    No it is not (none / 0) (#77)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:17:52 PM EST
    It represents what you are saying exactly, because, just like Jim and Muslims, you place yourself as the arbiter of who is a jihadist.

    You have decided that all Evangelicals are religioscos, which means you will not participate in a discussion with any of them. That is sad. That is pathetic.

    Parent

    That (none / 0) (#78)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:32:41 PM EST
    is a further misrepresentation of what I have said.

    I have said the onus is on the evangelicals to show they are not, especially when they appear to claim that rights have not enough moral appeal for them.

    That's two misrepresentations of what I have said. Conversation ended, absent apology.

    Parent

    And this is how Jim frames it (1.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:46:14 PM EST
    The onus is on all Muslims to distance themselves from the fanaticals. In the meantime, they have every bit of discrimination coming to them. That is why it represents what you are saying exactly. That is why I am saddened by it. That is why I say you sound pathetic.

    I've answered the Rights concern, and you still focus on one sentence. That is a symptom of fundamentalism and intolerance. It is this type of intolerance I have no tolerance for. And I also have zero problems with offending people who are offensive.

    Parent

    That's three. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:51:50 PM EST
    I suggest reread eveything I've said in this thread. It will give you an opportunity to find a fourth comment you can misrepresent.

    Parent
    God's Politics (none / 0) (#83)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:52:57 PM EST
    From Jim Wallis' website:
    Thursday, November 09, 2006
    Jim Wallis: A Defeat for the Religious Right and the Secular Left
    In this election, both the Religious Right and the secular Left were defeated, and the voice of the moral center was heard. A significant number of candidates elected are social conservatives on issues of life and family, economic populists, and committed to a new direction in Iraq. This is the way forward: a grand new alliance between liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, one that can end partisan gridlock and involves working together for real solutions to pressing problems.

    It is clear from the election results that moderate, and some conservative, Christians - especially evangelicals and Catholics - want a moral agenda that is broader than only abortion and same-sex marriage.

  • Defeat for the secular left.

  • Anyone not evangelical or catholic is only interested in abortion and gay marriage, nothing more.

  • Evangelicals and Catholics have the lowdown on morals and the authority to dispense it to the masses.
  • Well, I asked. I read. I heard.

    Jim Wallis needs no one to trash him. He seems to do fine on his own. God's Politics indeed.

    Parent

    What glasses are you wearing? (none / 0) (#86)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:09:37 PM EST
    Jim Wallis needs no one to trash him. He seems to do fine on his own.

    He obviously needs you to misinterpret him.  Read your above quote on another day when you aren't filled with such piss and vinegar. He says nothing that I wouldn't agree with in the quote you provided. And, I'm sure you've done some searching to find something you could call offensive and Trash. Problem is, the quote you provide does nothing of the sort. Keep Googling.

    Lets take em one at a time.


    Defeat for the secular left.

    And the religious Right. He is calling out is fellow evangelicals as well.

    Anyone not evangelical or catholic is only interested in abortion and gay marriage, nothing more.

    No, he is saying that Evangelicals and Catholics have broader concerns than only abortion and Gay Marraige--such as the environment, the Bill of RIghts, War and Poverty.

    Evangelicals and Catholics have the lowdown on morals and the authority to dispense it to the masses

    And you just made this one up, obviously out of hate and spite.

    Parent

    Glasses? (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:31:14 PM EST
    A significant number of candidates elected are social conservatives on issues of life and family......

    Social conservatives on issues of life and the family?????

    What do you think that is a code for? In my book it is translates to:

    A significant number of candidates elected want to enact their conservative religious views into legislaton.

    The issue is not that those on the left have no tolerance for religious people, it is that we have no tolerance for stealth attacks on our constitution that demands a seperation of church and state.

    We have seen too much of it in the last years. Yes, religion is the opiate of the masses and a very enticing group to exploit for political gain. Catch words like common ground sound appealing but are ultimately proven time and again empty seductions in the tool kit of religious hacks who are power hungry. The right wing has cynically mastered this holy charade for the last 20 years, and the left and center want no part of it.

    From my point of view, that is what results of the mid-term elections told us.  

    Parent

    That's four. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:13:08 PM EST
    sigh (none / 0) (#82)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:46:37 PM EST
    I have said the onus is on the evangelicals to show they are not, especially when they appear to claim that rights have not enough moral appeal for them.

    There are a number of major issues with Edger's logic in this thread which takes him very near to ppj.

    1. Not all evangelicals are the same. Your lumping them all together is no different than ppj lumping all Muslims together. Your discussion shows an enonormous amout of ignorance about people of faith and the wide variation in beliefs. The people to be scared of are the dominionists which are but a subset of fundamentalists. Not all evangelicals are fundamentalists.

    2. a right may or may not have any connection to morality. Your failure to understand this is, well, surprising. Usually a right refers to a state granted freedom. Morality is a matter of conscious and belief. The state may grant the right to abortion, which a religous person may find immoral based on their beliefs.

    The treatment of Wallis here has been despicable, showing all the same traits shown by people like ppj and his pronouncements about Muslims. because you are ignorant does not mean that they should prove "they stopped beating their wife".

    No one is more opposed to the dominionists than me. Many evangelicals are also. Get some more knowledge so that you can stop making a fool of yourself.

    Denigrating all people of faith because of the actions of a minority, vocal though they may be, is no better than the trash talked by the right about Muslims and Islam.

    Edger and PPJ both prove that ignorance leads to intolerance.

    Parent

    I only seems that way (none / 0) (#84)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:54:02 PM EST
    I have not lumped anyone together. I have asked questions.

    Parent
    Denigrating all people of faith (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:00:44 PM EST
    is a misreading of what I've said in this thread, and is something I never do.

    I have repeatedly differentiated between what I refer to as religiosos, and truly religious seekers.

    That differentiating has been acknowledged, then conveniently and immediately ignored by Peaches.

    In fairness, I think that you only missed it Soccerdad - not ignored it.

    Parent

    Ignored? might as well make it five, now (none / 0) (#88)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:21:32 PM EST
    I acknowledged it here
    and here

    I don't thnk you denigrate all people of faith, but you have made known your views of anyone who identifies as an Evangelical. You left it to yourself to make this distinction between Religioscos and truly religious seekers, without telling anyone how you would make these distinctions. The only clue you have given is that Evangelicals are not truly religious seekers.

    I understand the purpose of making a distinction. Your criteria for the making distinctions is what I am offended by.

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#89)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:30:39 PM EST
    The only clue you have given is that Evangelicals are not truly religious seekers.

    I haven't even said that. I have merely said that I think the onus is on them to show they are truly religious seekers, and not 'religiosos' (compare: mafiosos) simply interested in power (theiein lies my criteria, btw). I say that because the very purpose of evangelism is to find converts.

    I don't thnk you denigrate all people of faith

    Thank you for finally seeing that.

    I would also suggest a thorough reading of the 177 comments to Jim Wallis' post on his website.

    Parent

    Your Welcome (none / 0) (#91)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:37:43 PM EST
    I have merely said that I think the onus is on them to show they are truly religious seekers, and not 'religiosos' (compare: mafiosos) simply interested in power (theiein lies my criteria, btw).

    And as SD has pointed out, this is what makes you sound so much like Jim. You are asking them to defend themselves against a baseless allegation.

    I say that because the very purpose of evangelism is to find converts.

    This is as ignorant as Jim saying that the very purpose of Muslims is to kill Americans. You should also make a distinction between the instituion and the individual. The purpose of most Christian churches is to find converts, to support the institution. However, this should not be interpretted as the very purpose of each member of a particular church is to find converts. This is paranoia to the extreme.

    I would also suggest a thorough reading of the 177 comments to Jim Wallis' post on his website.

    If I did want to know more about Jim Wallis the man, why would I learn more from others comments to his words than his own words himself. Just curious?

    Parent

    Other points of view. (none / 0) (#92)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:40:07 PM EST
    why would I learn more from others comments to his words than his own words himself. Just curious?

    Other points of view. To consider.

    Parent

    Fair enough, but (none / 0) (#93)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:48:32 PM EST
    I always like to start by reading the novel, before I read the literary critique. I want to form my own opinion, not take someone elses. I have not been troubled by much that Ellis has said, that anyone hear has quoted. He sounds reasonable, and an unlikely target as an enemy to democrats to me. Keep  finding other quotes that might persuade me to make a different judgement and I'll listen. But, up to now, Wallis sounds pretty damn common sensical to me.

    Parent
    ;-) I suggest reading his commenters because... (none / 0) (#94)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:16:28 PM EST
    It may very well be that Wallis is honestly interested in... inclusiveness(?)... for lack of a better term on the tip of my toungue, rather than just power for it's own sake to futher a religious moral agenda (though I am naturally distrustful of evangelism as you know), but... how to explain?

    Perhaps this way... I work as a Business Development Analyst for a very large business performance/coaching organization. One of the things we are called upon by clients for is to help them develop solid educational marketing message campaigns to attract business. Wallis is blowing it.

    Wallis is driving away most of the secular left. I think you'll agree that that is evident both here, and, if you read his commenters, on his own site. If he is honestly interested in people and their welfare and rights that is a problem for him. It's also, btw, a problem for him if he's only interested in power, unless of course the right wing fundies are what he really wants to attract, in which case he is a rethug.

    Why?

    I come full circle to my original question. What does Wallis want?

    Parent

    I go out for a while and ... (none / 0) (#106)
    by aw on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 04:39:33 PM EST
    There are a number of major issues with Edger's logic in this thread which takes him very near to ppj.

    I'm surprised to hear you say that soccerdad.  I would say the opposite is true:  that the kneejerk offense taken by any religious criticism is pretty blockheaded, too.  Sacrilege!  Blasphemy!  Is that what it is?  It has to be that or it wouldn't set off any more of an argument than political affiliation does.

    Your discussion shows an enonormous amout of ignorance about people of faith and the wide variation in beliefs.

    It's funny how people keep saying that.  I happen to agree with Edger and am a former person of faith.  How is one ignorant about people of faith when we are surrounded by them?  We we used to be them.  My extended family has people who practice (or in some cases, no longer do) every major religion, including evangelicals.

    In some comments above, we were discussing a former evangelical, Frank Schaeffer, who describes himself as "a survivor of both polio and an evangelical/fundamentalist childhood", whose father was a famous theologian evangelist.  Would you tell him he was ignorant, too?

    He warned (in one of the links above):

    We stand in the path of a worldwide fundamentalist tsunami. Repeating mantras about sensitivity, inclusion and tolerance is no defense. Nor is hoping religion will just go away. Ascribe it to God, our genes or our desire for meaning but for whatever reason we humans seem to be inexorably religious. We better start figuring out what sort of religious people we want to be.

    You say the dominionists are the ones to watch (and I have read quite a bit about them), but now we're just talking about degrees of difference again, which just makes, me at least, even more adamant that there must be no, none, zero, zip relationship between church and state.

    Outside of that I don't care if people want to worship fire hydrants, but I'll be damned if I can't make fun of them either.  But you'd better not, because it's not respectful or tolerant (remember it's only a matter of degrees from where you are.)

    Parent

    Yes... (none / 0) (#109)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 07:46:09 PM EST
    now we're just talking about degrees of difference again, which just makes, me at least, even more adamant that there must be no, none, zero, zip relationship between church and state.

    Outside of that I don't care if people want to worship fire hydrants

    At least I know what a fire hydrants' purpose is. They are incapable of duplicity, I think. ;-)

    Parent

    pathetically intolerent (none / 0) (#110)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 08:33:11 PM EST
    yes your and aw's experience does define the world - and you wounder why they vote Repub even though stated Dem values are closer to theirs in many cases.

    Parent
    Really... (none / 0) (#112)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 08:49:34 PM EST
    ...I doubt that my views mean very much to whomever you mean by 'they'.

    I generally try to avoid blanket statements, and try to remain as tolerant and reasonable as possible without having it turned against me.

    It's just the 'pathetic' in me, I suppose.

    Parent

    Soccerdad (none / 0) (#113)
    by aw on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:09:20 PM EST
    We stand in the path of a worldwide fundamentalist tsunami. Repeating mantras about sensitivity, inclusion and tolerance is no defense.

    Parent
    Maybe he's intolerant, too? (none / 0) (#114)
    by aw on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:33:58 PM EST
    Former Senator John Danforth, an Episcopal minister, was just on the Daily Show, saying it's not a good idea to divide the people with religious issues, that separation of church and state is a good and necessary thing.

    Parent
    What he wants is clear (none / 0) (#95)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:33:06 PM EST
    from what I have read from him so far.
    1. Elimination of poverty.
    2. The ending of the War in Iraq.
    3. Working towards solution of Environmental problems.

    and I also hope 4, he has has some concern over the erosion of the bill of rights, since I would think many of his constituents would have this concern.

    Wallis is blowing it. Wallis is driving away most of the secular left. I think you'll agree that that is evident both here, and, if you read his commenters, on his own site.

    I consider myself part of the secular left, but I have no tolerance for the fundamentalist views of others who also identify as such. If Wallis is driving these extremist fringes away along with the fundamentalist on the religious right, but captures the majority of Americans who share his concern about War, Poverty and the environment, then he doesn't need marketing advice from you or your business.

    unless of course the right wing fundies are what he really wants to attract, in which case he is a rethug.

    He has more problems with the far right members of evangelicals than he has with the secular left. And, like I say, he's probably better off without either extremist wing.

    Parent

    Fine (none / 0) (#96)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:34:12 PM EST
    Now who sounds like Jim? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:35:10 PM EST
    Don't know if anything has changed, yet? (none / 0) (#98)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:37:07 PM EST
    The onus is still on Evangelicals, Right?

    Parent
    yep (none / 0) (#99)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:41:48 PM EST
    If you had named Theo's diary (none / 0) (#102)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:48:42 PM EST
    would it be called "On the trashing of the Secular Left", or "On the trashing of those who disagree with Peaches"?

    Parent
    Theos name for thread (none / 0) (#104)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:56:30 PM EST
    captured the spirit of the discussions perfectly.

    Kudos to Theo!

    Parent

    THerefore (none / 0) (#103)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:53:46 PM EST
    Just as there are fundamentalist Evangelicals and moderate or liberal evangelicals, and

    There are fundamentalist members of the secular left as well as moderate or tolerant members of the secular left, and since

    You fall on the fundamentalist side, because

    Fundamentalist only act on principal and refuse all attempts at compromise, further more since

    I don't tolerate fundamentalist well,

    but since I like you...

    I will put the onus on you to defend yourself and prove to the world you are not an extremist/authoritarian/fundamentalist member of the secular left. ;)

     

    Parent

    I am not in the habit of (none / 0) (#107)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 04:57:48 PM EST
    going on the defensive when it comes to religion. Religion (not only, but most often of the organized variety) makes too many claims that are utterly indefensible. If they want my support they had better show that they are honest and not simply power mongers which 2000 years of history shows is the trend.

    But I like you, so here you go:

    Peaches: The only clue you have given is that Evangelicals are not truly religious seekers.

    Me: I haven't even said that. I have merely said that I think the onus is on them to show they are truly religious seekers, and not 'religiosos' (compare: mafiosos) simply interested in power (theiein lies my criteria, btw). I say that because the very purpose of evangelism is to find converts.

    Peaches: I don't thnk you denigrate all people of faith

    Me: Thank you for finally seeing that.

    Peaches: Your Welcome

    Parent

    same technique as PPJ (none / 0) (#105)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 04:04:06 PM EST
    guilty until proven innocent - pathetic

    Parent
    The difference (none / 0) (#108)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 05:09:23 PM EST
    is that PPJ condemns an entire race, religion and society for the actions a few.

    I ask for clarification of an evangelists own statements.

    If you find equivalency between the two that is your problem. You obviously have not read or followed my comments in this thread other than at the most superficial level.

    Parent

    Father Wallis knows best?? (none / 0) (#72)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:53:18 AM EST
    Wallis (and all evangelists) needs to explain clearly what is is that he wants in a political party beyond standing up for rights, and why that alone has no moral appeal for him.

    It sounds to me like he wants to be the one defining morals. His ten commandments weren't good enough for him? He's got a few conditions, amendments and codicils to add?

    No thanks. If I threaten to torture him for eternity will he worship me too?

    I have about as much respect for and trust of Christian Evangelism as I do for Islamic Jihadism.

    what it really boils down to in the final analysis, is that the holy rollers are so insulting that they want you and me to be so tolerant and open minded that we will tolerate and be open minded to voluntarily becoming intolerant and closing or own minds to appease them

    He wants to evangelise? The onus is on him to show that he is not one of the religiosos, not on me to take the chance that he isn't by compromising with giving him his way and letting him dictate on one issue affecting so many just to buy his cooperation on something else.

    Edger, (none / 0) (#74)
    by Peaches on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:04:04 PM EST
    I might as well be talking to Jim.

    Parent
    Sorry you feeel that way. (none / 0) (#75)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:06:07 PM EST
    Funny, that's how I've been feeling too.

    Parent
    Tolerance (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:55:18 AM EST
    is something to extend to true religious people. Not to the fakers who would use it against you.

    ignorance proven (none / 0) (#111)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 08:36:58 PM EST
    but now we're just talking about degrees of difference again,

    like asking a reformed drunk about wine all self-rightous intolerance
    .


    Doctrine (none / 0) (#115)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 12:16:40 AM EST
    the very purpose of evangelism is to find converts to their religion - at least that is one of its purposes, along with making more evangelists. IMO Christianity, like most religions, is similar to a ponzi scheme.

    Commentators and historians describe four characteristics of evangelicals:

      1. Emphasis on the conversion experience, also called being saved, or new birth or born again after John 3:3. Thus evangelicals often refer to themselves as born-again Christians. This experience is said to be received by "faith alone" and to be given by God as the result of "grace alone".

       2. The Protestant canon of the Bible as the primary, or only, source of religious authority, as God's revelation to humanity. Thus, the doctrine of sola scriptura is often affirmed and emphasized. Bible prophecy, especially as interpreted according to dispensationalism, is often emphasized.

       3. Encouragement of evangelism (the act of sharing one's beliefs) -- in organized missionary work or by personal encounters and relationships with others.

       4. A central focus on Christ's redeeming work on the cross as the only means for salvation and the forgiveness of sins.



    Correction (none / 0) (#116)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 12:23:32 AM EST
    IMO Evangelistic Christianity, like most religions, is similar to a ponzi scheme.

    Parent
    Follow Me, (none / 0) (#117)
    by aw on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:47:13 AM EST
    and I will make you fishers of men...Matthew 4:19

    Parent
    Good mornig, aw! (none / 0) (#119)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:56:42 AM EST
    BTW (none / 0) (#120)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:58:19 AM EST
    mornig is really how I talk when I first wake up. It means morning.;-)

    Parent
    Good morning, Edger (none / 0) (#131)
    by aw on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:38:05 AM EST
    everyone.

    Parent
    I'm a little surprised that moiv (none / 0) (#118)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:55:54 AM EST
    hasn't commented here so, for anyone who is interested and honest enough to open themselves to information other than Jim Wallis' own admittedly high and reasonable sounding rhetorical sound bites in spite of the possibility that they may not like what they read, I'm going to quote quite extensively from an article he wrote for Talk To Action in July of this year, because I happen to agree quite strongly with what he had to say, and with what others whom he quoted in that article had to say. People who follow the subject of this thread closely, such as Dr. Bob Edgar, General Secretary of the National Council of Churches, and Frances Kissling of Catholics for a Free Choice.

    The Moral Terms of Jim Wallis:

    "The good news is that the monologue of the Religious Right is now over and a new dialogue is finally beginning."  That's Jim Wallis's favorite sound bite.  He says it so often that Google finds his name plus that exact phrase about 13,000 times.  

    Much of this "new dialogue" is devoted to poverty as a moral issue, a national discussion that is long overdue.  But no moral/political dialogue can ignore for long those twin bread-and-butter bogeymen of the Religious Right: full civil rights for gays and lesbians, and reproductive rights for women.  

    As Dr. Bob Edgar, General Secretary of the National Council of Churches, correctly points out, "Jesus never said one word about homosexuality, never said one word about civil marriage or abortion."
    ...
    But before his elevation as an "evangelical progressive" celebrity, together with a Who's Who of the Religious Right that he now says "gets it wrong" -- in lockstep agreement with Gary Bauer, Charles Colson, James Dobson, Robert George, William Kristol, Beverly LaHaye, Richard Land, Bernard Nathanson, Frank Pavone and Ralph Reed -- Jim Wallis signed a lengthy document that said plenty about abortion, culminating in a call for a constitutional amendment to criminalize abortion entirely.  And to this day, adept as he is at dodging questions about his true position, Wallis has yet to repudiate a word of it.

    Frances Kissling of Catholics for a Free Choice has taken Wallis to task for his refusal to get real about abortion in his current role as "progressive evangelical" adviser to Democrats in search of "values voter" support.

    Wallis' views are hard to pin down. Attempts by interviewers to get Wallis to go beyond his well-rehearsed and often-repeated sound bites on the issue are met with politician-like repetitions of homespun theology. He thinks abortion itself is morally wrong but does not want to see it criminalized.

    So Wallis appears to be slightly altering his legal position on abortion, but his moral position remains unchanged. Out of expediency perhaps?

    The article continues:

    On the issue of reproductive freedom and abortion rights, there is no older "set of ideologies and interest group demands" than that of the Religious Right ... and, it seems, of Jim Wallis.  Yes, all of the above are part of Wallis' agenda - although he leaves out not only contraception, but his signed endorsement of a federal constitutional amendment to make abortion a crime in all 50 states.
    ...
    And here, courtesy of Priests for Life, are only a few of the "moral terms" - prefaced with the blatant lie that "abortion on demand ... is legal at any time of pregnancy, for virtually any reason, in every state " -- to which Jim Wallis has signed his name.
    (this is a long list - please see the article) - the lists opening paragraph is:
    That America has the most permissive abortion regime among the world's democracies is a betrayal of the American promise of justice for all.


    This pro-choicer has a whole lot of trouble shrugging off what Jim Wallis has said about abortion, and along with Mr. Maguire, most people in this country of all faiths -- or even of none -- would like to hear a lot less lying about it from both religious leaders and politicians.  

    But the time for truth from Jim Wallis is now.

    I agree, moiv. I think that Jim Wallis' and most Evangelicals want you and me to be so tolerant and open minded that we will tolerate and be open minded to voluntarily becoming intolerant and closing our own minds. They are entitled to their desires, and I am entitled to reject them.

    Thanks for the offer Mr. Wallis. I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding takers.

    Thanks (none / 0) (#132)
    by aw on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:13:36 AM EST
    for the link to the Maguire article.

    Parent
    You're welcome (none / 0) (#134)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:28:12 AM EST
    Beverly LaHaye (none / 0) (#136)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:01:05 AM EST
    in lockstep agreement with Gary Bauer, Charles Colson, James Dobson, Robert George, William Kristol, Beverly LaHaye, Richard Land, Bernard Nathanson, Frank Pavone and Ralph Reed -- Jim Wallis signed a lengthy document that said plenty about abortion, culminating in a call for a constitutional amendment to criminalize abortion entirely.

    Beverly LaHaye is the better half(?) of Tim & Beverly LaHaye.

    These are the LeHaye's of "Left Behind" fame: a video game designed for teaching christian children to kill anyone who will not convert to christianity while shouting "praise the lord".

    This is one of the circles, unfortunately, that Jim Wallis travels in.

    Parent

    aw and edger in a circle jerk (none / 0) (#121)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:59:34 AM EST
    more tolerance from the "liberal" left.

    Your lack of tolerance makes you no different than the right.

    You have the freedom not to believe but to denigrate those who do makes you just like the right who constantly denigrate the left. Just keep telling me how tolerant you are while you continue with your mocking. Hypocrites just like ppj.


    Soccerdad (none / 0) (#122)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:08:00 AM EST
    You are doing exactly what you accuse me of. If you think that any information that does not support what you want to hear then you are being, in your own words "pathetic". And I am rapidly losing respect for you, my friend.

    Parent
    Correction (none / 0) (#124)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:09:53 AM EST
    If you think that any information that does not support what you want to hear is denigrating then you are being, in your own words "pathetic".

    Parent
    but of course he leaves this part out (none / 0) (#123)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:09:34 AM EST
    This is a  key.
    but doesn 't  fit edgers agenda

    Abortion is one such case. Democrats need to think past catchphrases, like "a woman's right to choose," or the alternative, "safe, legal and rare." More than 1 million abortions are performed every year in this country. The Democrats should set forth proposals that aim to reduce that number by at least half. Such a campaign could emphasize adoption reform, health care, and child care; combating teenage pregnancy and sexual abuse; improving poor and working women's incomes; and supporting reasonable restrictions on abortion ...  Such a program could help create some much-needed common ground


    Soccerdad (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by squeaky on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:19:21 AM EST
    Wallis is suggesting that the 1 million abortions happen because the godless democrats love abortion?? He has a plan, believe you me, and that plan is to severely restrict abortion and provide sin counseling.

    It is entirely disingenuous of him to imply that the dems are not interested in educating the teen population about sex and birth control. Have the dems had control of legislation and funding for the last 7 years? no. The education based approach to reducing abortion has been drastically curtailed by Bush and his cronies, in favor of abstinence and faith based counseling. The republican plan to reduce abortions has failed. This is the plan that Wallis wants and it doesn't work. If he had the power to he would make abortion illegal.

    What a joke to even suggest that the issue of abortion is not taken seriously by democrats. Wallis is free to do all the good works he wants, but religious beliefs have no place in politics.

    Parent

    I gave you (none / 0) (#125)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:10:54 AM EST
    TWO links to the full article soccerdad. Quit your whining.

    Parent
    poor baby (none / 0) (#127)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:13:17 AM EST
    wants to have it both ways: seen as a paragon of tolerance while mocking groups he doesnt agree with with. pretty pathetic.

    Parent
    why not this (none / 0) (#126)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:11:47 AM EST
    The democrats saying we stand by the legality of a women's right to choose but will work to reduce the number of abortions by means other than restricting access.


    Are you kidding? (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by squeaky on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:26:30 AM EST
    The dems are not godless baby killers and would love to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. To answer as you suggest would be like answering the question do you still beat your wife, yes I am for reductions in beating my wife.

    It is a trap. Wallis is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Let him do all the good he wants, but keep religion out of politics.

    Parent

    btw nice job not quoting the part that disagrees (none / 0) (#128)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:14:42 AM EST
    with your charactertization

    Maybe you can get a job swiftboating people for the DLC or RNC

    Are you listening? (none / 0) (#129)
    by aw on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:33:18 AM EST
    I am not trashing religion.  I am against the Democratic party using particular (Christian) religious values to evangelize for voters.  As, Sen. Danforth said, it divides the people and exploits them.  It creates favorites (Christians) and leaves out others which is exactly what the Founders were concerned about.

    To criticize the use of religion in politics is not being intolerant of religion.  To say I don't understand what Christianity or Evangelism is about is not a meaningful answer.  I was baptized in a Lutheran Evangelical church and attended for many years.

    To say I'm intolerant of religion when I repeatedly say I'm against involving religion in politics means you're not listening.  It's a knee-jerk reaction.

    Nonreligious people also have values.  Traditionally Democrats (religious and secular) have had more regard for the social, economic, and environmental issues that Jim Wallis espouses than the Republicans.  That there has been no progress, or even backsliding, in these areas, can be attributed to the Republican party in spite of all their religious "values."  And I say "values" because they have shown no interest in remedying these problems, in fact, they've done the opposite.  So, you might say, that's why we need the Jim Wallises, to show the true way to Republican "values" voters who may be wavering.

    I've said it before.  If these voters truly shared our Democratic values, they would have used their brains as well as their hearts and voted Democratic all along.  If they haven't been able to see past the words, and not the deeds, of the leaders of the Christian Right, they are not worth perverting democratic government for.  I have no problem with ministers teaching their flocks what their values should be.  I have a problem with ministers carrying a message in cooperation with a political party, for when they have "delivered" the votes, they will expect a share of the power.  It was ever thus.

    The separation of church and state holds us together.  Breaking that down violates the constitution and drives us apart.  If you insist otherwise, you might as well form religious parties now.  You'd better start a drive to amend the constitution, and while you're at it, add proportional voting, unless what you want is really a Christian state, crushing all other beliefs,  with our own mullahs deciding what the law should be.

    Are you listening?

    Well said, aw (none / 0) (#133)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:25:48 AM EST
    If these voters truly shared our Democratic values, they would have used their brains as well as their hearts and voted Democratic all along.  If they haven't been able to see past the words, and not the deeds, of the leaders of the Christian Right, they are not worth perverting democratic government for.

    Unfortunately, it is obvious some are not listening, and have no intention of hearing, much less listening, and are just 'knee-kerking' as you say.

    Parent

    dense (none / 0) (#141)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:37:32 AM EST
    there are shared values, although arrived at via different means. Acknowledging those shared values does nothing to change the separation of church and state. Enacting legislation and policy that benefits a religion or promotes a religion that changes the separation

    No it is you with the knwee jerk reaction that somehow acknowledging a comm9on belief violates the separation clause.

    You hide behind that in order to mock those of faith. Fine they won't vote Dem

    And of course in your tolerant way infer that they are stupid when in fact you propose ignoring them.

    What hypocritical jerks talking out both sides of your mouth.


    Parent

    Soccerdad (none / 0) (#130)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:35:14 AM EST
    You have become no longer worth replying to.

    obviously because you cant take the heat. (none / 0) (#140)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:30:54 AM EST
    come on tell us again how tolerant you are.


    Parent
    When and if (none / 0) (#142)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:57:01 AM EST
    you start discussing rationally rather do nothing but hurling insult, invective, ad hom, and stop rejecting any new information as denigrating, in other words when you start acting like a real liberal, I'll be tolerant of you.

    Until then, you are no longer worth replying to. So far you have run up against the limits of my tolerance, and with statements like come on tell us again how tolerant you are you've reduced yourself to nothing more than a baiting troll.

    It's been fun. But all things must pass.

    Parent

    as usual, can dish it out but cant take it (none / 0) (#143)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:02:06 AM EST
    We are all to blame (none / 0) (#135)
    by Peaches on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:58:24 AM EST
    Traditionally Democrats (religious and secular) have had more regard for the social, economic, and environmental issues that Jim Wallis espouses than the Republicans.  That there has been no progress, or even backsliding, in these areas, can be attributed to the Republican party in spite of all their religious "values."  And I say "values" because they have shown no interest in remedying these problems, in fact, they've done the opposite.

    Drive a car much? Where do you shop? Have you been on the front lines demonsstrating against the war. Do you escort women through demonstrations at abortion clinics? Were you in Seatle?

    Stop the blame game. Take some responsibility.

    Answer the comment. (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by aw on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:19:33 AM EST
    You don't know much about me.  I started protesting in 1969 at the war moratorium in NY.  Got in trouble for cutting school that day, too.

    I also send an endless stream of letters to my representatives.  I vote.  I hosted a MoveOn party.

    Yes, I drive a car, not an SUV.  Just try getting around in NJ without one. I also turn my thermostat down.  

    Was I in Seattle?  Not at the time you're speaking of, but how is that taking responsibility?  Not much gets done unless the government gets involved and leads.

    Now, if you don't mind, stop changing the subject again, and answer the comment.  You tell me to take some responsibility, but you avoid the very heart of what I said.

    Parent

    AW (none / 0) (#144)
    by Peaches on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:52:31 AM EST
    I've answered you enough. You want to blame. You are  not interested in solutions if it involves compromise.

    It comes down to to one thing and one thing only. Jim Wallis is Evangelical. Jim Wallis says he wants to work with Democrats to come up with solutions to some very big problems facing us all. But, Edger and You don't trust Jim. Because he is Evangelical. Edger has spent the past twenty four hours googling and searching for damning information on Wallis. Thie best he can come up with is some anonymous quote linking wallis to Lehays. Keith Ellison has suffered the same smears from bigots agaisnt muslims. THese bigots will never take Ellison for his word because he is Muslim and they will continue to find every way possible to link him with terrorist. But to them, the Onus is on Ellison. Edger and you are no better. You both don't see that because you are blinded by your hatred and distrust of anyone who is evangelical.


    Parent

    This is baiting and trolling as well I think. (none / 0) (#145)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:58:59 AM EST
    I would have thought better of you.

    Edger has spent the past twenty four hours googling and searching for damning information on Wallis. Thie best he can come up with is some anonymous quote linking wallis to Lehays.

    I have linked to and posted quotes from an extremely small percentage of information freely available on the web to anyone with any interest in Jim Wallis.

    That is, available to anyone who will even look for it.

    I have spent the past 24 hours living my life, and maybe 5 minutes looking information about Wallis. If that long...

    I would have thought better of you. See my last comment to Soccerdad.

    Parent

    Pondering points (none / 0) (#146)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 12:24:18 PM EST
    Religious Right groups and their allies insist that the United States was designed to be officially Christian and that our laws should enforce the doctrines of (their version of) Christianity. Is this viewpoint accurate? Is there anything in the Constitution that gives special treatment or preference to Christianity? Did the founders of our government believe this or intend to create a government that gave special recognition to Christianity?

    The answer to all of these questions is no. The U.S. Constitution is a wholly secular document.
    ...
    The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they disliked religion. Many were believers themselves. Yet they were well aware of the dangers of church-state union. They had studied and even seen first-hand the difficulties that church-state partnerships spawned in Europe. During the American colonial period, alliances between religion and government produced oppression and tyranny on our own shores.

    More...(pdf)



    You guys (none / 0) (#147)
    by aw on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 01:55:12 PM EST
    are not really all that interested in what the Founders had to say.  You're obviously not interested in the Bill of Rights, either.  You do seem to glory in taking self-righteous offense.  You  are prisoners of your own minds, very much like Jose Padilla, blinded and deafened, only by choice.  

    You don't want to answer me any more, Peaches?  You never did.


    Parent

    those in glass houses.... (1.00 / 1) (#148)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 02:14:27 PM EST
    Ummm, aw? (none / 0) (#149)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 02:14:34 PM EST
    You posted your comment as a reply to mine, aw. Am I one of "you guys" now? ;-)

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    Oops (none / 0) (#151)
    by aw on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 02:38:11 PM EST
    I think I changed my mind in the middle of a comment and addressed it to them without going back a step.

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    Whew! (none / 0) (#153)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 02:43:24 PM EST
    :-)

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    Good Bye and Good Luck (none / 0) (#150)
    by Peaches on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 02:18:38 PM EST
    Thanks Edger and AW,

    You've finally cured me of one more distraction.

    So long to all, its been a fun couple of years.

    SD,

    Cheers! A heartfelt goodbye to you

    Oh,

    You too, ppj. (and Sarc, and bill and everyone else I forgot to mention)

    Know how you feel (none / 0) (#152)
    by soccerdad on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 02:39:50 PM EST
    Heartfelt goodbye to you peaches.

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    WOW (none / 0) (#154)
    by squeaky on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 02:44:08 PM EST
    Never thought you were one to pick up his toys and leave. Guess I had it wrong. Hope it is temporary and you get over your hurumph. Evidentially aborton, religion and legislation (politics) create quite a toxic brew.

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    No Harumph Squeak (none / 0) (#156)
    by Peaches on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 02:54:47 PM EST
    Its been a long process of removing myself from certain distractions via electroninc media. I don't have internet at home. I only do this at work, and there is work to do.

    I've always felt my blogging was useless, but entertaining distraction. I do enjoy jousting with Jim, BB, Wile, Jimcee and others. But, Its no fun to see the fundamentalists come out on the left. It makes me lose hope. I prefer to meet people face to face. THus, my work here is done. It was more distraction and play then work.

    The internet is no place to have a social life. Its sad that many of us use it for that.

    But, it was fun Squeak. You can have my toys.

    Parent

    What Squeaky said... (none / 0) (#155)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 02:47:26 PM EST
    I'll second that.

    Parent