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New Report on Guantanamo Review Hearings

Law Prof Mark Denbeaux and team have completed their report on the review hearings (pdf) undertaken at Guantanamo:

In the wake of the Supreme Court’s decision that the United States Government must provide adequate procedures to assess the appropriateness of continued detention of individuals held by the Government at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, the Department of Defense established the Combatant Status Review Tribunals (“CSRT”) to perform this mission.

This Report is the first comprehensive analysis of the CRST proceedings. Like prior reports, it is based exclusively upon Defense Department documents. Most of these documents were released as a result of legal compulsion, either because of an Associated Press Freedom of Information request or in compliance with orders issued by the United
States District Court in habeas corpus proceedings brought on behalf of detainees. Like prior reports, “No Hearing Hearings” is limited by the information available.

The findings:

1. The Government did not produce any witnesses in any hearing and did not present any documentary evidence to the detainee prior to the hearing in 96% of the cases.
2. The only document that the detainee is always presented with is the summary of classified evidence, but the Tribunal characterized this summary before it as “conclusory” and not persuasive.


3. The detainee’s only knowledge of the reasons the Government considered him to be an enemy combatant was the summary of the evidence.


4. The Government’s classified evidence was always presumed to be reliable and valid.


5. In 48% of the cases, the Government also relied on unclassified evidence, but, like the classified evidence, this unclassified evidence was almost always withheld from the detainee.


6. At least 55% of the detainees sought either to inspect the classified evidence or to present exculpatory evidence in the form of witnesses and/or documents.


a. All requests by detainees to inspect the classified evidence were denied.


b. All requests by detainees for witnesses not already detained in Guantánamo were denied.

There's more findings and a lot of detail in the report, I recommend reading it all.

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    Why we give "terrorists" due process. (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Viajero on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 03:09:22 PM EST
    Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift of the Judge Advocate General`s Corps was appointed by the military to represent the Gitmo detainee in the case of Hamdan versus Rumsfeld said this a while back:

    It`s not whether they deserve it or not. It`s how we conduct ourselves. It has to do where if we say that our opponent can cause us not to follow the rules anymore, then we`ve lost who we are. We`re the good guys. We`re the guys who follow the rule and the people we fight are the bad guys and we show that every day when we follow the rules, regardless of what they do. It`s what sets us apart. It`s what makes us great and in my mind, it`s what makes us undefeatable, ultimately.

    Lt. Swift was recently denied promotion, which, in effect, forced him out of the JAG Corps and the Navy.

    I hope that after the worst president we've ever had leaves office, the next president will offer Lt. Swift his job back.

    We need truth-tellers like him to protect the most important thing we have: the rule of law.

    Re: protect the most important thing we have (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 04:28:01 PM EST
    Swift is saying something there that most people know, even if some don't, or pretend they dont.

    He is referring to the golden rule and reminding that moral cannot be equated with and does not flow from legal, and that good law is based on and must reflect moral values, not the other way around.

    Those who make arguments attemtping to justify things like the "enemy combatant" label or the treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo or "renditioning" or torture are either wilfully ignoring this truth or they are in some fundamental manner handicapped.

    It is easy, as we've seen in the example of the Military Commissions Act, to make and pass law that attempts to equate right with legal, and say there is nothing wrong with what is done under it it because it is now legal, but when laws like that are passed they are transparently offensive to innate values, and no matter the twists and turns are used in their justification, we know in our hearts that they are wrong.

    Or we should. Some seem not to.

    Parent

    10 Legions to make it legal (1.00 / 1) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 07:27:17 PM EST
    edger - All of that is happy nonsense. The first law that must not be broken is to win. If you lose, especially against the radical Islamic terrorists, there will be no second place. You will obey or be killed.

    So it would be helpful to remember what Antony said when he arrived in Egypt:

    I am here to bring the law and I have 10 Legions to make it legal.

    Parent

    Whatever, Jim... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 07:42:00 PM EST
    Bush is Caesar? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Viajero on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 12:39:03 AM EST
    Jim,

    Your attitude is so ancient history. You may not recognize it, but evolution has happened, albeit unevenly.

    It would be a Pyrrhic victory to try to kill off all the new terrorists Bush has created (plus lots of collateral), but lose our soul. That's Cheney's favored path, the path of self-righteous state terror.

    Your Roman victory ethic is unsuitable for the 21st century--it's just not smart enough.


    Parent

    Swift (none / 0) (#4)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 06:00:45 PM EST
    Was passed over for promotion three times.  The first two times were two and one years respectively before he was involved in the cases.  The last promotion pass over was before the results of the case was known.  Why was he passed over the first two times?  

    Parent
    Why? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 12:53:15 AM EST
    Swift was by no means or stretch of the imagination incompetent. On the contrary, it was likely his own intention to be passed over. He was concentrating all of of his efforts on becoming the best trial lawyer he could become, with a view to a civilian law career, not on the range of military experience he would have needed to qualify for the promotions he was passed over for. He was passed over due to his own choices, probably because he did not want the promotions.

    His focus on doing the best job he could do at what he wanted to do was likely one of the reasons he was able to win Hamdan v. Rumsfeld. In fact, Swift might be the perfect guy to prosecute Rumsfeld, Bush et al for war crimes, should the opportunity ever arise.

    "He's doing a fantastic job," said Swift's current boss at the Office of Military Commissions (tribunals), Marine Col. Dwight Sullivan.
    ...
    "We all take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and he has certainly done that, literally."

    Swift's first supervisor at the Office of Commissions was Col. Will Gunn, who said Friday that he gave Swift two annual fitness reports and "I gave him very high ratings overall."

    Asked whether he thought politics might have played a role in Swift being bypassed for promotion, Gunn focused on Swift's atypical career as a military lawyer. "Charlie has spent a lot of time as a litigator, a trial advocate. That's really unusual in the JAG. You find that people in the more senior ranks have moved around and proved themselves in a variety of settings."

    Most of Swift's career has been spent in the courtroom.

    "While Charlie is a brilliant guy, a tenacious litigator, he does not have all the blocks checked like some other folks have," Gunn said. He called it a "breadth-of-experience" issue.

    Swift clearly believes that his vigorous defense of Hamdan was, in a very real way, a vigorous defense of military justice and the Constitution.

    "If they are calling the commissions (tribunals) military justice, it's got to live up to what military justice is. It means something. It's about the law, not what the leaders want. The greatest thing about the JAG Corps is ... I had the opportunity to work every day in a system I believe in."

    Link

    ----------

    As a former officer in the military, I understand the process in applying for promotion. You are competing against a large pool of officers and there are limited positions available. If the officer decides not to attend Command and General Staff School, he has accepted the fact that he will not get promoted. Many professionals do that as they look forward to a civilian career.

    Link



    Parent
    Swift ditched for the wrong reasons. (none / 0) (#14)
    by Viajero on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 01:10:15 AM EST
    Exactly. It's just more spin from the machine. He was pushed aside because he did his job well and bravely spoke truth to power in a very articulate manner.

    Who's kidding who? Alberto Gonzalez doesn't need those kind of skills.

    Parent

    Not in the same universe. (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 08:37:54 AM EST
    Viajero - I always love it when you guys "speak truth to power."

    Now, what terrible thing did Swift suffer. He had already been passed over twice and he decided not to attend command school, a requirement for promotion.

    So it looks to a reasonable person he knew what the deal was, and chose his own path.

    Now for the sake of argument, let's say that he was forced out, and he knew it was going to happen. What does he know he will face?

    He will be passed over for promotion and forced out into a civilian law career.

    That's it. No prison. No torture, nothing excdept he will continue his legal career doing something he enjoys doing. What a peanlty.

    So save your tears for that unknown Moslem who, when urged to become a suicide bomber says, "You know, I want to go to school, marry my sweetheart and raise a family."

    That's truth to power. Swift is not even in the same univerese with those actions.


    Parent

    Learn how to talk. (none / 0) (#19)
    by Viajero on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:18:27 AM EST
    "Speak truth to power" works because it's accurate. Sorry if that's not clear--it's kind of a dead end to try to convey the beauty of that phrase to those who think the world is a level playing field.

    Swift will have a great, successful career. I'm not crying for him. It's us that are the losers.

    He was forced out, but again, I'm done arguing that point.

    Yeah, I agree it's a huge tragedy that the Middle East is largely mired in forms of medieval, backwards Islam. The question is: how do we respond? With our own boneheaded, black and white, might is right hamfisted generalizations, or do we take the harder, more skillful and respectful path of using talk and talk and talk, and only then guns. Takes more wisdom rooted in our values, less bullheaded posturing and eagerness to dive into war. It's where someone like Swift would come in handy. And it's where Rummy and Bolton have not a clue. Not a lot of creativity in those flag-wavers.

    Not sure what you mean about the same universe.

    Parent

    You make my point. (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 08:24:12 AM EST
    edger - Your own link makes both makes my point.

    You find that people in the more senior ranks have moved around and proved themselves in a variety of settings."

    I know that your experience makes it difficult for you to undersrand, but it is simple. The most talented IT person in the world is not going to be promoted to a position in company management unless she has proven wider experience. The world just works that way. A talented car mechanic doesn't run the dealership.

    Parent

    :-/ That's wonderful, Jim.... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:05:22 AM EST
    ...considering that my comment was in answer to Wiles' question and had nothing to do with anything you might or might not think you think you're supposed to think.

    My conversation was with Wile, not with you. If I wanted to have a conversation with you I would. The reason I don't is that I don't.

    You ok, Jim? Maybe it's time for a checkup....

    Parent

    Don't read it. (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:03:58 PM EST
    If you don't like my comment, then I suggest you don't read it.

    Parent
    Heh... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:09:35 PM EST
    I try not to have hope for you Jim, but you constantly renew my faith in in you. ;-)

    Parent
    Utter (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 07:22:41 PM EST
    What we are engaged in is a global war with a foe that will use every thing possible against us.

    What we need to do is to start to understand that and to further understand than in war we must win.
    Chanting mantras that if we don't treat non-citizens like we treat citizens that we have somehow "lost" is absolute nonsense.

    As for Swift, it is helpful to remember that he was passed over twice before he "won" the case that you finds so wonderful. This indicates that there were problems there before the third and final out. It should be remembered that being an officer also means being a manager, trainer and leader. The jump from Lcdr to Cdr has long been the break point. Swift merely didn't measure up in one of the NECESSARY areas unrelated to his ability as a defense attorney.

    This may strike you as unfair. Try to remember that the purpose of the military is to defend the US.

    Parent

    What we are engaged in is... (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 09:13:53 PM EST
    To a hammer, every problem is a nail. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Viajero on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 01:03:22 AM EST
    It's so easy to hide behind the mantra "the purpose of the military is to defend the US". It's like being for the flag--who can argue with it? The question really is: What are they defending if not the best values that we stand for?

    These values have been debased under the tenure of the neocons and their useful idiot.

    No one has a beef with the soldier. He does a great job bravely. It's the cretins who are willing to water down and obfuscate the issues of detainee rights in the name of "security" who are as much a threat as the new terrorists Bush and Co. have made.

    The issue has nothing, nada, to do with wanting to "treat non-citizens like we treat citizens". But it's useful for some to confuse the issues this way, very Bush-like--simple, simplistic, and imaginary. Appeals to the base.

    As for Swift, he was marked, because he is and has been a truth-teller. His relative lack of breadth of experience is a cover for this truth.

    Parent

    If you can (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:47:08 AM EST
    Viajero - And what terrorist had Bush made in 1979? In 1993? Who launched the terrorists who were captured coming into the US from British Columbia planning to blow up LAX.

    What evil deeds had we done to cause them to hate us? We existed. They saw us as the last real obstacle to turning western civilization into a caliphate ruled by Imams and judged by Shari law.
    They attacked then, they attacked on 9/11 and they attack now.

    The Islamic terrorists have stated they will use our own democracy to destroy us. They preach hatred in the streets, in mosque and in schools in our own country. Yet many misguided people claim that we must tolerate this in the name of "freedom of speech." We must be diverse and "celebrate the differences."

    Here's a news flash. The Constitution does not give you the right to scream fire in a crowded theater. There is a line between protest and sedition.

    Did you bother to watch the FNC special Saturday night? It had film and quote after quote of this. Did you watch Beck's special on CNNHLN Wednesday night? It had the same.

    By guess is no. You did not. The specials had truth in them. Truth that I don't think you can bear to hear because it tears your world apart.

    It shows that who leads the US has nothing to do with their actions and intents. They hated us under Carter, Reagan, GHWB, Clinton and now under GWB. They will hate us whoever leads.

    This truth is evident yet you worry about Bush, someone who will be gone in two years while the children the Islamic radicals are now corrupting with hate will be fitting themselves with explosive belts, thinking of finding a coffee shop full of innocent people chatting with friends.

    What do you do? Do you recognize the problem and understand that we must be willing to fight? Do you agonize over thise who the terrorist are killing? Do you stand up and say our soldiers are being underpaid to do a dangerous job?

    No. You dismiss them with:

    No one has a beef with the soldier. He does a great job bravely.

    How supportive of you. What a great strain. What scarifice that statement must have placed on you.

    It is Sunday morning. The church bells ring across the country. Some go to worship, others do not.
    Nothing is said, nothing is done to those who golf  or blog...

    Yet across the world when the calls to prayer sound the Moslem must pray or be punished. The infidel not tolerated, the Jew damned.

    Figure out what side is best for the world, dear Viajero. If you can. But hurry. If we do not win, we will lose. And if we lose there will be no councils of peace. None. You will pray on your knees. Homosexuals will be killed, daughters stripped from schools.. The long path from darkness to a world lit by hope and progress will vanish to be replaced by the darkness of hate.


    Parent

    Heh. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 10:00:19 AM EST
    Yes, yes, Jim. We all know the bogeymen are out to get you.

    The long path from darkness to a world lit by hope and progress will vanish to be replaced by the darkness of hate.

    There, there, Jim. Don't worry yourself too much about that. I know it's scary, but we won't let that happen. The GOP has been gutted, Rumsfeld is gone, and the rest will be knocked off one at a time.

    Oh, and nearly all the other trolls have given up, finally realizing that endlessly repeating the fearmongering propagandizing of the Bush administration was just an illusion programmed into them.

    Except you. But you're off the hook. Because no one expects you to get it.

    Parent

    Besides,... (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 10:09:16 AM EST
    History (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:02:42 PM EST
    edger - You should stop viewing everything through your prism of politics and hatred of Bush. He will be long gone and the terrorists will still be here.

    They are the enemy. Not Bush. Not Repubs. Not Christians. Not Jews. Not fellow Americans who you disagree with.

    That you cannot imagine that demonstrates a remarkable lack of knowledge of history.

    Listen to what the terrorists are saying, edger. Do not repeat the mistakes of Chamberlain. Do not think you are so clever you can deal with the terrorists. You have nothing to say to them that they are interested in besides, "I surrender." And for that they will behead you.

    Parent

    RE: Listen to what the terrorists are saying (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:18:17 PM EST
    But Jim, I listen to you and Bush closely every day. Now you've hurt my feelings. Don't feel bad though, I'm over it now. ;-)

    Parent
    xxx (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 03:02:53 PM EST
    edger - You haven't listened to anyone you disagree with. Don't try and kid us.

    Parent
    Jeez, Jim, you actually asked... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 12:23:24 PM EST
    ...
    Did you bother to watch the FNC special Saturday night? It had film and quote after quote of this. Did you watch Beck's special on CNNHLN Wednesday night? It had the same.
    .

    Citing Faux News as an authoritative source of information?

    No wonder you are so confused! TURN OFF FAUX NEWS and read some international newspapers and/or obtain your information from something other than an administration propaganda arm.

    Parent

    So are you. (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 01:45:30 PM EST
    Bill - I understand, based on your comments about this country, that you think ill of it, so why should I consider your recommendations anything but biased?

    However, unlike you, I actually watch a broad spectrum of news sources and consider the sources of all of them.

    The shows that I refer to used actual video clips of actual moslems speaking actual words. Were the speakers lying? I base my opinions on their own words. I consider the words of the "hosts" to be editorial comment.

    I invite you to stretch your intellect and do the same. The results will scare you. To anyone who is a Jew, homosexual/lesbian or female their words should frighten you beyond belief.

    So place your elitist attitude in the trash can. History is full of dead people who thought their superior minds would force the barbarians from the gate. They were wrong. So are you.

    Parent

    If you believe this statement: (none / 0) (#33)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:02:33 PM EST
    Bill - I understand, based on your comments about this country, that you think ill of it, so why should I consider your recommendations anything but biased?

    Then you have either never read anything I've ever written or you have applied your personal filters to the point of incomprehensibility to reach the absolutely wrong conclusions.

    I love my country more than life itself, I am just not blinded by phony "America-love it or leave it" neanderthal thinking and I recognize injustices when I see them - even when they're committed by Americans in the name of America.

    But, I do recognize the futility of arguing with someone so cemented in their positions that it is not only not possible to entertain another's opinion, but that is is necessary to personally denigrate and insult them in a puerile attempt to label and minimize them, something I outgrew on the playground when I was a child.

    So if you believe America is perfect as is, if you refuse to see or consider that the rest of the world, by a large margin, now considers America to be the greatest threat to world peace, and don't care to object to war crimes and crimes against humanity committed in the name of America, well, Jim, I won't try to disabuse you of your beliefs, nor will I insult you for holding a different opinion.

    I would agree that, "To anyone who is a Jew, homosexual/lesbian or female [neocons'] words should frighten you beyond belief."

    Parent

    Who is better??? (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:59:59 PM EST
    I have never claimed America is perfect.

    I do claim that it is light years ahead of any Moslem state, and a culture that is based on 6th century beliefs.

    So tell me Bill, who is better? Iran? SA? Egypt?

    Parent

    No response forthcoming. (none / 0) (#48)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 03:03:38 PM EST
    Misleading (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 03:01:44 PM EST
    BTW - To act as if you are quoting someone while inserting a single word is, at best, intentionally misleading.

    But not unexpectd from you.

    Parent

    No response forthcoming. (none / 0) (#49)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 03:04:21 PM EST
    This is patently false (none / 0) (#60)
    by Officious Pedant on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 05:20:26 PM EST
    I just don't get the historical blinders so obvious in this statement:

    Here's a news flash. The Constitution does not give you the right to scream fire in a crowded theater. There is a line between protest and sedition.

    Here's a news flash for you, Jim. The Constitution imposes zero restrictions on what you can say. Restrictions were interpreted later, by the courts. Guess they were "judicial activists", huh?

    Particularly relevant is the fact that the same people who wrote the document you misquote used written and verbal arguments for sedition against the Crown. In fact, they started a war to overthrow what, at the time, was their duly consituted government appointed by the Crown.

    And, if you read back through the Constitution, you'll not find a single word abridging the right to be seditious. In fact, the originating document of the Declaration specifically demands that kind of speech in situations similar to those we now find ourselves:

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    A President now empowered to declare you an enemy combatant, and detain you as long as he feels necessary. Not to mention impose "aggressive interrogation techniques" on you, without ever having to find you guilty of anything. Techniques, by the way, they are not obligated to catalog.

    Parent

    ppj joins dictators thru out history (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Sailor on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 10:34:15 PM EST
    The first law that must not be broken is to win.
    that's just an even stupider way of saying the ends justify the means. It is totally false and morally bankrupt.

    The golden rule, karma and the principles America was founded on all put that to the lie.

    It is unAmerican and unchrisian to have a view like that and anyone who does is worse than the terrorists.

    Do you want to win? (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 01:34:09 PM EST
    Sailor - I speak of war, not comfortable debates sipping coffee in front of your computer while mouthing platitudes to make you feel righteous, warm , and superior.

    In war if you do not win you lose. I am noting that the terrorists have clearly said that they will use our politically correct loving leftists against us.

    You should figure out if you want to win. It really is that simple.

    Parent

    Get some treatment, Jim. (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 01:52:48 PM EST
    I speak of war, not comfortable debates sipping coffee in front of your computer while mouthing platitudes to make you feel righteous, warm , and superior.

    You have a wireless laptop in the middle of the road  just outside the Green Zone now, do you?

    Which universe was that you're from again?

    Parent

    Global war on reality. (4.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:27:42 AM EST
    The Al Qaeda Clubhouse: Members lacking
    "up to 9/11, Al Qaeda could barely hold its act together, that it was a failing group, hounded from every country it tried to roost in (except for the equally lunatic Taliban-run Afghanistan) . . . This is the reality of the group that the Bush Administration has said would engage us in a `long war' not unlike the Cold War--the group that has led to the transformation of U.S. foreign policy and America's image in the world."
    ...
    Documents discovered by the joint task force, Cloonan said, showed that Al Qaeda had 72 members when it was founded in 1989. Twelve years later, the task force got its hands on an updated membership list after a CIA Predator destroyed a building near Kabul during the American invasion of Afghanistan. The membership list was discovered in the rubble, along with dozens of casualties, including Mohammed Atef, one of bin Laden's closest aides. It showed that bin Laden had a grand total of precisely 198 sworn loyalists.
    ...
    Terrorism is a real threat, but "Al Qaeda" is less of an organization than it is an impulse. And while bin Laden isn't the all-powerful terrorist mastermind he's often portrayed to be, the war in Iraq, Guantánamo, extraordinary renditions, and other Bush Administration brainstorms have ensured that his message is broadcast loud and clear throughout the world.

    No matter how crazy 72 guys are, some of the only ways you can fan a dispute with them into a global war with a foe that will use every thing possible against us is by continual meddling with the economies of their countries, supporting massive corruption and oppressive dictatorships in their goverments, and killing their bombing their citizens, me, women, and children alike.

    All the while of course you'll need to conduct all-pervasive propaganda, misinformation, and outright lie campaigns against your own population, to convince the greatest numbers of the intellectual weakest to believe that a few crazy fanatics, and your contitutional rights, are more of a threat than you are.

    At those things the foreign policies of successive administrations, most notably Bush's, have been spectacularly successful.

    We see examples of that success here every day, and right there in this thread.

    We also saw an example of how tenuous, transparently delusional and illusory that success has become on November 7 this year.

    Reality has been around for a long time, and it always wins in the long term.

    Imagine Your ARe On Trial (4.00 / 1) (#52)
    by john horse on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 03:08:58 PM EST
    Imagine you are on trial.  The government does not provide you with a list of witnesses or its documentary evidence prior to your hearing.  Your only knowledge of why you are on trial is a summary of the classified evidence.   You are not allowed to inspect this classified evidence.  You are not allowed to inspect the unclassified evidence against you.  Your request for witnesses that will support your claims of innocence  is denied.  Now defend yourself.    

    Given the unfairness of the procedures, isn't it just as likely that the CSRT will rule against the innocent as the guilty?   If the procedures at Guantanamo are flawed then how can we trust the results?


    jim (3.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Deconstructionist on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 09:01:48 AM EST
      It's easy to make fun of people who rely on empty slogans (I do it myself) in place of reason and who feel they can eliminate the existence of real threats by calling anyone who acknowledges them fascists.

      I agree with you that we do face serious threats from "radical Islam" and that we must confront them with means including force, and that it is plain silly to argue we can protect ourselves through "greater understanding" of our enemies. No one has ever provided me with a coherent explanation of what it is we supposedly don't understand.

      I agree there is a singificant enmey in existence and that rapprochement  with that enemy is impossible. You are correct that some groups can only be defeated or they will cointinue to be our enemies and continue to use violence to achieve their ends. They canot be appeased.

       However, that does not mean we should do things that alienate those  who were not already radicalized and our enemies AND that also undermine the very values  we claim to defend.

      I question your apparent belief that we can only win by resorting to tactics that offend not only the sensibilities of the Muslim world but the traditional notions of justice and humanity which we cherish. I believe these tactics weaken us and attract converts to our enemies.

       We are in a fight and it is irresponsible to argue we can wish the fight away but the way we conduct ourseleves in the fight is one of the most important factors that will determine the long-term outcome.

       

    Decon (4.50 / 2) (#23)
    by Dadler on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 10:04:44 AM EST
    We understood nothing about Iraq and look at what we have done.  You don't think a bit of insight would've helped us there?

    We didn't understand Afghanistan before OR after, and look how we've ignored that place.

    This administration tosses around the words terror and terrorism and terroists for no other reason than to scare people beyond reason.  That has hindered, infinitely, our ability to understand and deal with individually, on their own merit, each problem we face.

    We could, in short order, counter the religious extremism at work if we had any credibility, but much our OUR nation is religiously extremist.  Our president could stand up and lead the world on a real discussion of the inanities of believing obvious metaphors literally.  But he himSELF believes an obvious metaphor literally.

    Understanding is not some touchy-feely word.  It is the basis of intellect.  Something on a national foreign policy basis we have yet to find a smidgen of.

    Parent

    Those are conclusions (none / 0) (#25)
    by Deconstructionist on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 10:30:52 AM EST
    You simply say "we didn't understand."

      First,  that assumes "we" are a monolith and all shared either false assumptions or  had no assumptions. I do not believe that to be the case. Second, it fails to put forth a single fact that was not understood.

      As you might anticipate, it is impossible to identify things "we" didn't understand without necessarily acknowledging that some of the "we" did understand. You can't call one part of "we" wrong without calling some other part of "we" right.

        Personally, i think both the neo-cons and hardcore anti-war (meaning war generally not Iraq)  movement understand quite well and I think both present false views that very few people in between see as anything other than propagabda.

       I also think that both sides of the false propaganda divide base their propaganda on a similar "lie."

       The neo-cons "lie"  about the possibility of establishing a peaceful ME and Central Asia  through a projection of our military, economic, cultural and political might and establishing "democratic" power structures based in large part on "our" model. But, the "peace through understanding" advocates similarly "lie" about the possibility of the establishment of a peaceful ME and Central Asia through our understanding and allowing indigenous  power structures  to develop based on "their" model.

      I really don't think there is any real lack of understanding but rather an unwillingness on either side to admit what we understand.

    Parent

    We're arguing about a word... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Dadler on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 04:35:04 PM EST
    ...whose definition we're not in agreement on.  

    Parent
    I'll tell you what we didn't understand (none / 0) (#58)
    by Officious Pedant on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 04:54:02 PM EST
    We didn't seem to understand that the Arab person in the street, being directly impacted by our policy, wasn't particularly thrilled with the partitioning of Palestine. We didn't seem to grasp that while we assert we are not a monolith, NATO, our relationship with Britain (one of the most egregious participants in the colonization scramble), and our support of some of the most totalitarian regimes (the Shah, the House of Saud, and Iraq) proved by our actions that freedom and democracy weren't our most cherished ideals when it came to others.

    Particularly given our instrumental role in the Massadeq government which brought them the Shah, or that shelling villages in Lebanon would produce an attack on the Marine barracks. It is not lost on the people of the Middle East that our overriding concern with the region is the unchecked and non-nationalized flow of oil from the region.

    It is the hypocrisy at the core of our foreign policy that creates enemies for us there. We opposed Communism in all its forms, putting far right dictatorships in power to prevent its creeping influence. Millions dead, or impoverished by their governments, to support one political philosophy over another, and you want them to understand that it's really for their own good? And that engaging in what we call a Clash of Civilizations isn't intended as an attack on Islam? That, by itself, is a fairly massive what "we" don't understand. Worse, some folks (you for example) don't seem to understand that we don't understand it.

    Oh, and:

    You can't call one part of "we" wrong without calling some other part of "we" right.

    Well revolutionaries and crown loyalists were "we". North and South were "we". And we have rather easily that one of those "we's", in each case, were wrong.

    Parent

    Forgot to add (none / 0) (#59)
    by Officious Pedant on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 04:55:19 PM EST
    that determining which of the "we" is "wrong" is always the prerogative of the victor.

    Parent
    Who is the strongest (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:18:22 PM EST
    Decon - Long term outcomes are based on short term actions. If you look at history we have been more than kind to the terrorists, especially those who have been engaged in guerilla actions.

    Historically they were hanged.

    I see nothing that we have done that is beyond reason. Releasing illegal combatants is nonsense. Allowing them to sue is dumb. To pay attention to German Leftist's who want to arrest Rumsfeld for "war crimes" is nonsense.

    My main point is that the terrorists plan on using a strategy that allows them freedom of action within our own borders to tie our hands and, eventually, recognize that Shari law applies to them, and not the Constitution.

    That is PC run wild.

    I would make special note that the moderate moslems are facing two choices.

    They must support the terrorists and radicals, or they must not. They will base their actions on their belief of who is the strongest. Who will win.

    If they believe the west is the strongest they will go with us. If they don't, they will go with the radicals.

    It has almost nothing to do with anything else. So while I understand your point and your concern, I do not think it applicable to the real world.

    Parent

    Jim (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:22:11 PM EST
    while I understand your point and your concern, I'm very concerned about you since you seem unable to notice that nobody is buying any more. Find a new brand of snake oil. ;-)

    Parent
    jim (none / 0) (#62)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 07:28:52 AM EST
    " Releasing illegal combatants is nonsense. Allowing them to sue is dumb. To pay attention to German Leftist's who want to arrest Rumsfeld for "war crimes" is nonsense."

       I'd agree that releasing "enemy combatants" during a state of war without consideration from the "enemy" is poor policy.  It begs the question though of who is actually an "enemy combatant" and who and through what processes should determine whether one is an "enemy combatant."

      The problem is the notion that we can simply decree people to be "enemy combatants" and that is a power easily abused.


    Parent

    Government's Classified Evidence Always Reliable? (3.00 / 1) (#41)
    by john horse on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:33:26 PM EST
    According to this recent study of Combatant Status Review Tribunal (CSRT) procedures "4. The Government's classified evidence was always presumed to be reliable and valid."  My reaction to this was you've got to be kidding.  Why should any evidence, classified or unclassified information, be presumed to be reliable or valid?  The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) that was produced prior to our invasion of Iraq is full of classified evidence that turned out to be neither reliable or valid.  For instance, the claim that Saddam was providing "training to al-Queda in chemical weapons training" (Condeleeza Rice, September 26) turned out to be false.  The source of this misinformation that was used to help justify our invasion of Iraq was Ibn al-Libi and was obtained through torture after the CIA rendered him to the Egyptians.  

    If the CRST is premised upon faulty assumptions then can we trust its results to be either reliable or valid?

    Ve haf vays of makink you tawk... (none / 0) (#1)
    by Bill Arnett on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 12:08:54 PM EST
    ...und zen you vill be found guilty and shot! Sign ze papers!

    I believe even the Nazis accorded fairer treatment to prisoners of war than America now does. Says a lot about what we have become and why the world considers America to be the greatest threat to world peace.

    Nice job, mr boosh.

    I don't believe (1.00 / 1) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 18, 2006 at 07:28:54 PM EST
    Bill, I don't believe you mean that. But if you do I have nothing but pity for you, and can only wonder what happened in your life that caused you to lose your way so badly.

    Parent
    And I fail to see how anyone can... (none / 0) (#26)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 12:10:53 PM EST
    ...fail to see the horrific damage bush has done to America and American jurisprudence.

    Keep your pity, it is not wrong to perceive that America has been raped, pillaged, and had its legal system, which served us well for over 200-years, turned completely upside down by bush's assumption of so-called "plenary powers of the unitary executive", which is naught but a fancy way of saying the Decider decides who lives or dies, who gets a trial or not, who gets kidnapped or not, who gets rendered to another country for torturing or not, who gets tortured at all, and whether American courts can continue to dispense justice or fall prey to vigilantism by bush and his merry band of neocon criminals.

    So, yes, I mean every word, and the "life events" making me able to recognize this is a life dedicated to law enforcement and protecting the rights of everyday American citizens who, formerly, had a justice system adjudged to be among the best in the world; not the best or perfect system, but at least one that accorded certain "unalienable" rights to every criminal defendant or anyone held in U.S. custody.

    Now we refuse to even acknowledge human rights on a basic level and "American Justice" is the laughingstock and sick joke of the world.

    Stuff pity, some things are on their face wrong and immoral. Blame me not for your lack of perception.

    Parent

    It is no wonder that America is held... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 12:41:03 PM EST
    ...in such ill-repute by so many other countries in the world.

    When comments such as this start becoming mainstream it ism indicative of a breakdown of the basic precepts of a civilized society:

     " I agree there is a singificant enemy in existence and that rapprochement  with that enemy is impossible. You are correct that some groups can only be defeated or they will cointinue to be our enemies and continue to use violence to achieve their ends. They canot be appeased."

    What Jim has done here is argue that 1.2-billion Muslims cannot possibly be either right OR allowed to live and that the ONLY method of dispute resolution is resorting to violence on a scale hitherto unknown on the face of this planet.

    SO YA WANNA KILL 1.2-BILLION MUSLIMS, JIM? You will have to make a go of it without my help or support.

    Apologies to Jim-the quote I cited... (none / 0) (#29)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 12:51:28 PM EST
    ...above was from a comment by decon directed to Jim, but the point remains the same.

    Advocating for or pursuing the deaths of 1.2 billion Muslims in the belief that they cannot possibly be intelligent enough to negotiate with is sheer folly and possibly the most corrupt and morally bankrupt position I have ever seen taken by anyone.

    Even imperial Rome never sought the death of each and every member of a nation they conquered.

    Parent

    Read the news (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:52:27 PM EST
    You write:

    Even imperial Rome never sought the death of each and every member of a nation they conquered.

    Actually not true of the Romans or the Greeks.

    But it took Moslems to really polish and execute the policy.

    Read some history, Bill.

    Heck read some current news:"

    Somali Muslims who fail to perform daily prayers will be killed in accordance with Qur'anic law under a new edict issued by a leading cleric in the Islamic courts union that controls Mogadishu.

    The Islamic Republic of Sudan turns up the heat on African children. Four were forced into a hut and burned to death last week.

    Does the above tell you anything??

    Parent

    No response forthcoming. (none / 0) (#50)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 03:05:33 PM EST
    No answer to facts. (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 06:44:04 PM EST
    Well, I understand that you have no answer to facts.

    Parent
    inviation (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:34:14 PM EST
    Bill - Yes, we are in such ill-repute that we are the most coveted citizenship in the history of the world. And that includes Moslems.

    As for who I would fight, I quote John Kennedy:

    Link

    Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

    And his answer to your question:

    We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.

    And like it or not Bill, the Left's constant attacks on foreign policy. Your clinging to a philsophy that was outdated in the 60's. Your clinging to a view that everything is political and that everything must be a viewed as a win or loss for one side or the other is deadly to the future of this country, and western civilization as a whole. The terrorists have been convinced by the Left's actions that the Left will take control and force us from Iraq and the ME. If this happens you will see terrorist actions redoubled and you will see them in this country.

    Count on it. They view weakness as an invitation to kill.

    Parent

    Save your pity and ad hominem attacks... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:54:06 PM EST
    ...Jim, as you are wasting your breath insulting me.

    You obviously disagree with me and I disagree with you, but this relentless slide of yours into personal attacks, accusations you cannot possibly back-up, and ever more wild -I hesitate to say demented - assertions to know what is in the mind and hearts of men, especially me,  while disregarding the plain language with which people state their opinions, bespeaks an intemperate nature and level of willful ignorance that astounds me and serves you ill.

    I leave it to the TL community-at-large to adjudge your words and your hostile, inimical-to-reasoned-debate words and opinions; I will no longer rate your opinions lest it appear that I bear some personal animus towards you, as you demonstrate towards me.

    I will therefore elect to henceforth exclude consideration of a response to the nonsensical and personal attacks you have chosen to pursue against me. I would say that we have to agree to disagree, but I know you would be disagreeable about that as well.

    Buh-by, Jim. Enjoy your world, peace.

    Parent

    I do note (none / 0) (#61)
    by Officious Pedant on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 05:34:27 PM EST
    that you fail to distinguish that Kennedy was speaking primarily to the Russians, as opposed to a loosely organized band of fanatics. It's the whole standing army and nuclear arsenal the makes the difference.

    Probably the reason they gave away Turkey in a diplomatic effort to avoid war over Cuba. Hey, we didn't actually go to war with, or over, Cuba, did we? I forget.

    Parent

    You forget?? (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 06:48:02 PM EST
    No, I lived through that and understood quite clearly what the stakes were.

    Oh, you forget? Did you ever know??

    Parent

    I do feel sorry for you. (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 02:20:54 PM EST
    Your reply further defines your inability to accept reality and the resultant attitude towards America.

    And yes, I do feel sorry for you.

    No response forthcoming. (none / 0) (#51)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 03:06:14 PM EST
    Proud of yourself, Jim? (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 03:38:35 PM EST
    Bill Arnett has never said anything against America. He has said much against the current administration and against the psychotic worldview that you espouse, as if life were a video game and American troops disposable plastic soldiers.

    He has fought overseas for you and for your country and for your rights and for your contitution and you sit there with so little respect for him that you laugh and bait and impugn his character and his service with impunity and without conscience.

    Are you proud of yourself?

    You are not fit to tie his shoelaces.

    Thank you, Edger. But I do have... (none / 0) (#54)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 03:56:13 PM EST
    ... a REALLY dumb question for you regarding your name. Ya know how everyone always carries on an internal dialogue with themselves?

    Well, when I have this internal dialogue, I am embarrassed that I do not know the proper pronunciation of your name - being from the south where "EdgAr" is the common spelling, and given the penchant of people to make up the spelling of screen names, is it pronounced like "Edge-r" or the common "Ed-Ger" as rhymes with the common spelling of "EDGAR"?

    I know that this is probably the most pressing issue of this new century, and I it is not my intention to place you under unbearable strain in considering an answer to my query, but if you could see your way to answering...well...I'd be obliged.

    And thank you again for your kind words.

    Parent

    No strain at all, Bill ;-) (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 04:04:52 PM EST
    It's a contraction of "edge-er", a pseudonym. It's a blogging name I chose in memory of one of the free-est thinking men I never met, always would have loved to, and sometimes think I might, eventually. On the other side, if there is one. ;-)

    "The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. The others --- the living --- are those who pushed their control as far as they felt they could handle it, and then pulled back, or slowed down, or did whatever they had to when it came time to choose between Now and Later. But the edge is still Out there. Or maybe it's In. The association of motorcyles with LSD is no accident of publicity. They are both a means to an end, to the place of definitions."
    -- Hunter S. Thompson

    He thought, and wrote, and taught, and lived, and died, on his own terms. A true and honest man.

    And he once said he would have liked to tie Nixon to his car bumper, drag him around the WH a few times, then cut him loose and dump him in front of the Rose Garden.

    I can imagine what he would have liked to to do to Bush by now.

    Parent

    Thank you. I now find that... (none / 0) (#56)
    by Bill Arnett on Sun Nov 19, 2006 at 04:28:22 PM EST
    ...I have all along been pronouncing it right, "edge-r" and I am dazzled by the Hunter Thompson quote and second your admiration for the man.

    I'll "see" all of y'all later, the hour grows long and fatigue neither forgives nor accommodates any man, much less one as flawed as me.

    'Night, all.

    Parent