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Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future?

Now that President Bush has said we're no-way, no-how leaving Iraq, and the Marines are calling up reservists (the Individual Ready Reserve), ABC's Brian Ross reports an Iraq War Veteran's group says a military draft is coming. Why? Because our military is over-extended and Bush has neither a victory nor an exit plan.

"This move should serve as a wake-up call to America," said Jon Soltz, an Army captain who served in Iraq and heads the group VoteVets.org, which raises funds for Iraq and Afghanistan veterans running for Congress. "Today's announcement that thousands of Marines in the Individual Ready Reserve will be called back to go to Iraq is proof that our military is overextended, and there is no plan for victory in Iraq."

"If this call-up directly fed into a plan for victory and bringing our troops home, we could take some solace. But there is no plan. We must demand a detailed, military victory strategy in Iraq, which will get our troops out of harm's way and relieve the strain on our active duty troops," said Stolz.

Also check out this article at Time: As the armed militias do their bloody work, neither U.S. nor Iraqi forces show any ability to curb them.

As more and more Americans come to understand that the war on terror is distinct from the war in Iraq, let's hope more people will voice their opinion at the polls in November.

[hat tip Raw Story.]

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    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 10:42:08 PM EST
    Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? Not until the Bush twins are stripped of their Secret Service details, processed, boot-camped and stationed someplace where people are shooting at them.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 10:52:05 PM EST
    . . . followed by the kids of anyone who held the lives of service personnel so cheap to have voted for Bush last time. We're all going to have to pay and pay and pay for their mistakes--Democrats and blue-staters especially. But Republicans can sacrifice their own kids.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Pete Guither on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 04:58:58 AM EST
    The hawks and neocons understand that a draft would mean an end to the Iraq war and the future war of opportunity plans in the middle east, so they will resist it in every way possible. The day a draft is implemented, all sorts of parents who are on the fence or are quietly against the war will become radically opposed. Campuses will become Vietnam-era-like places of political activism. That's why the administration is destroying the military (through over-use, stretching too thin, involuntary recalls, etc.) rather than going to the draft.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 06:51:53 AM EST
    Molly - Just for grins, when would defend the country? And where would defend the country? Would you prefer to fight in NYC? What corner of Times Square would you defend? Or do you actually believe that the radical moslem terrorists are no threat and all we have to is play I'm okay-you're okay. Now to the draft. The military is currently excercising its right to have people complete the contract they signed. I understand that this is a huge inconvience. But I don't think we'll see draft riots like we had during the Civil War. Of course we have a couple of similar things. A wealthy upper class who was marginally for defending the Union constantly criticizing Lincoln and then avoiding the draft by paying someone else to serve. Sound familar?

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 07:05:09 AM EST
    If there's a draft in my son's future, then there is a jail in mine.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 07:08:38 AM EST
    I will use ALL MEANS NECESSARY to stop anyone from sending my son to fight George Bush's wars. Did you read that Gen. Hayden? You F**kwad!

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Sailor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 07:13:37 AM EST
    no, jim, it only sounds familiar to someone who is insane for war and other children's blood. iran and iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or AQ.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 07:18:34 AM EST
    Oh Jim, you're back. Good. Try hopping back to the Kos vacation thread and answering my questions. Oh yeah, still no apologies for lying, using words out of their context, and name-calling. It's mostly a one-way conversation for you these days, isn't it? But I'm sure you will not actually ANSWER my comments, so much as make some snide remark about my namesake or my diction. We liberate. Only terrorists invade.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 07:20:13 AM EST
    Pete's right...a draft is suicide for . Like I always say...I welcome it. It will awaken the sleeping giant that is the American populace. We are all to comfortable right now...a draft would change that.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 07:47:45 AM EST
    Even if american's wanted us to be in Iraq (and we don't), we sure as hell don't want to pay for it. If every American got a monthly bill for their share of the direct monetary costs of the war, we'd be out of there in six months. But if you pass the buck (i.e. borrow the money and pass the bill to the next generation) people are basically indifferent to the cost. The all volunteer army lets americans pass the death buck too. But as soon as you ask all of America to chip in their sons, the pot will quite literally be to rich for our blood and we'll fold our hand. Politicians are accutely aware of how this works (Promise health care = bump in polls. Propose taxing average americans to pay for it = political suicide), which means there won't be a draft.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#11)
    by desertswine on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 07:48:04 AM EST
    The hawks and neocons understand that a draft would mean an end to the Iraq war and the future war of opportunity plans in the middle east, so they will resist it in every way possible.
    Yes, unless, of course, they contrive to get us attacked again.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 07:59:20 AM EST
    How can you tell when the standard talking points aren't working out? When TL tosses up another "oh no, the draft is coming" post.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 08:36:33 AM EST
    JR, TL's post is in response to the Marines recalling IRR's.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 08:53:04 AM EST
    Che, it doesn't matter what it's in response to. There isn't going to be a draft. The administration doesn't want one, and neither does the military. The only party that wants one is the Democrats, because they hope that a draft would result in 1968 style protests on college campuses. It's not going to happen, period. TL knows this.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:12:47 AM EST
    It's important to remember a few things... People who want a draft: Leftists People who don't want a draft: Parents (of any party) Republicans, generally Democrats, generally Independents, generally Greens, generally the Military the President And yet, leftists are constantly atwitter over a draft that no one wants.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:14:47 AM EST
    Oh, how could I have forgotten the Libertarians!?!?

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:15:46 AM EST
    im--There are these things called "pronouns." You need to use them more. I don't know if you've picked up a newspaper in the last 5 years, but we've already been dealing with terrorists here in NYC for quite some time. The last time--while Bush was cleaning the pee stains out of his shorts--everyone here pitched in to help dig out, clean up and carry on. And when terrorists strike the States next--which Bush's policies pretty much guarantee--it'll be someplace the terrorists have actually heard of, like Chicago, L.A., D.C. or here. But it won't be anywhere near you. So don't worry your pretty little head. OTOH, I can't tell you how tired I'm getting of hearing/reading cheap, hysterical claptrap presented as serious discussion of a critical matter, by people whose @sses and homes will never, ever be threatened by the subject matter. Or do you actually believe that the radical moslem terrorists are no threat and all we have to is play I'm okay-you're okay. Love that 'winger logic: Either you think Bush's policies are just brilliant or you feel the whole matter can be handled with a few choruses of Kumbayah. Look, the locals here aren't stupid, we're not uninformed (nor does our information all come from the same sources--the Internet runs through here too), and we have 'way more of a stake in this than you, or LGF or wherever it is you got your fore-quoted either/or. It takes a really special kind of brain fart to suppose that Bush's unpopularity here is because we don't take the threats seriously. He's not protecting us. Or you. Not even a little bit. Got that? All those lives, all that money--they've been wasted. We could have just flushed all those billions down the toilet (a really large one, obviously) and shot 2,615 (as of this morning) service members picked at random, and we'd be just as safe as what Bush's policies have made us, or ever will make us. Safer, in fact, since we wouldn't have directed all those resources towards influencing otherwise-neutral Muslims (and even non-Muslims) to despise us. And as long as you're accusing us of naivete: How naive do you have to be to swallow the line that Bush is forcing himself (oh, reluctantly, I'm sure) to assign himself every conceivable power, with no accountability to the public or any court, because of national security? Yep, that Dubya is such a pure, high-minded creature. A flat-out power grab would never occur to him.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:17:28 AM EST
    Another thing to consider: A draft is a profoundly out of step thing in American history. We had one during the latter half of the Civil War (and it generated the worst riot in US history, in NYC). We had one during WWI, and Wilson shut down all protests with very nasty laws that were tossed after he left office. We then had a draft from 1940-1972. There's an influential generation that lived through that, and considers it "normal". It's really not though; it's a historical oddity. The current smaller, professional, volunteer military is the norm.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:18:05 AM EST
    Sorry--"im" should be "Jim."

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:33:47 AM EST
    Leftists seek a draft in the same way that radical Christians seek the "red heifer." Either would usher in the Second Coming--for Leftists a return to the glory days of Vietnam protests and free love, for radical Christians the Rapture and end of time.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#21)
    by soccerdad on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:36:08 AM EST
    JR etc say there will be no draft but dont say where the troops are going to come from, or are you assuming that this misadventure in Iraq is coming to an end. To say there is no issue with troop levels would be disingenous at best. So where are the troops for our never ending war on terror going to come from?

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:41:56 AM EST
    Gabe..of course no one wants a draft. Draft means risking death against ones will. It's a question of need...if our govt. wants to keep making war, the cannon fodder has got to come from somewhere. I think the poor are starting to realize some dough for college ain't worth your limbs.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:51:07 AM EST
    kdog, the government is not an independent entity. You say "if our govt. wants to keep making war..." But that's not the issue. The government cannot do anything draft-related without the support of at least a few of the following groups: Parents, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Greens, Libertarians, the President, and the military. I think it much more likely that our international commitments will be scaled back before a draft is instituted, simply because the above listed groups would prefer that option first.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:52:45 AM EST
    Ralf W. Zimmermann was a tank battalion commander and decorated Desert Storm veteran. here's what he has to say:
    The war on terrorism is far from over, as Army Chief of Staff General Peter Schoomaker recently underscored when he said, "I believe that we are closer to the beginning (in Iraq)... than we are to the end." Consequently, it's important to realize that expensive contractors and complex technologies can only deliver so much and that statistical gamesmanship and excessive bonuses are failing to deliver the quality and quantity of soldiers needed to deal with Iraq and Afghanistan and to respond to other eventual regional emergencies. Maybe discussing a military draft openly should no longer be off-limits. Surely, every American--especially the Vietnam generation--knows that the draft isn't something to be taken lightly. But I guarantee you that given today's recruiting realities, it can deliver a better variety of qualified personnel when compared to what the Army is beginning to "waive into its gates" under slyly re-designed recruiting and retention rules. And there are factors that favor a military draft in national emergencies. American citizens and families will have a higher stake in the nation's foreign policy--their sons and aughters. Becoming a "shareholder " in our foreign policy will ensure that wars are properly declared and diplomacy will have its day before the guns speak and blind violence rules. Also bear in mind that morally and ethically grounded draftees with interests outside the service won't tolerate careerist professionals running amok.
    link

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:52:56 AM EST
    Gabriel, I don't want to cut off your train of thought, but let me tell you what I consider to be a leftist, since I identify myself as one. 1. I don't want a draft. 2. I believe in change vs. the status quo 3. I believe America is an idea and this idea is based in the founding documents and writings that occured at the origins of our country. 4. This idea is called democracy and it is something that has yet to be achieved in our country. 5. We, as American, are striving to achieve this idea 6. It is hope that inspires us to achieve this idea. 7. It is love that makes the achievement possible. 8. Since democracy has yet to be achieved, this is why I favor change over the status quo and identify as a liberal vs. a conservative. 9. Our humanity is confirmed by this striving for democracy and we are striving for an idea (that all are created equal) that can never be fully achieved. 10. This apparent fatalistic view (that demcracy can never be fully achieved) does not detract from its pursuit as long as there is hope and love in the world. ps. - love is universal and didn't begin nor end with the 60's.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#26)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:52:56 AM EST
    I think it speaks a lot for the nature of this war when fighting it properly (i.e. bringing the troop level required in every successful occupation in history) would lead to everyone involved in starting it being run out of town on a rail. And the wingnuts openly admit it. As I said yesterday:
    Hell, I'm an able-bodied 21 year old male, and I support a draft. Why? Because I know that not one of the soccer moms I see driving around with yellow ribbons on their Suburbans would let their precious Matt or Justyn get pulled from his frat house and sent to get his face blown off in the desert so that The Decider can kick the can down the hall a little longer. They may not bat an eye at the legions of inner-city blacks with nowhere else to go returning with an arm and a leg missing. They may not grasp the mountain of debt that Justyn and Matt will have to pay off armed only with their worthless MBAs. And they hope that the Republicans will subsidize those $60 and $70 trips to the gas station with another tax cut. But if there's one thing that will end this godforsaken Strangelovian neocon debacle, it's when their mindless suburban enablers actually end up footing the bill with their own flesh and blood. Scratch that, it's not one thing, it's the only thing. So I say, bring it on. Start up the draft. All this "All-Volunteer Army of Tomorrow!" talk is nonsense anyway, when you can be an overweight autistic with webbed feet and still have all four branches fighting over you just so somebody can go out there and take an IED for the team. Oh, and for all you wingnuts: it's what Strauss would have done. Or whatever.
    What a sick and pathetic country we have become. The greatest irony of all is that the Straussians thought their splendid little war was going to unite us all in a grand patriotic anti-Muslamonazidhimmihippiecratmichaelmooreisfat singing of the Battle Hymn of the Republic, even though Al-Qaeda was a two man operation. After all, just 20 years earlier they convinced a President (granted, this President had actual, physical swiss cheese-like holes in his brain) that the Soviet Union had a space based death ray, impenetrable missile defense and conventionally undectable nuclear submarines on the grounds that nobody had actually seen any of these things and that's just a little too convenient, isn't it?!?! Surely they can convince people that there's a 100 million strong Fascislamojihadifariafeminazi army just champing at the bit to come blow up their homes and make their women wear tents, as soon as they get ahold of a boat. And they've even convinced people that they'll never even have to pay one red cent for the military action to wipe out this phantom enemy. But deep down, something holds them back from fully believing that they've got to give up something they actually care about, the way their parents did in WWII. And that something is that this war, and everything ever said by its supporters, is a lie. Bush knows it. Jim and JR know it. They might claim they're worried about diluting the 21st-century warfare effectiveness of illiterate kids from the ghetto, which I think speaks for itself. But in a war that we've rung up entirely on a national credit card that we never intend to pay back, where we keep sending our soldiers back for third and fourth and fifth tours until they know they're not leaving alive or intact, and in which the President has repeatedly stated will never end, the only way things could get worse from a conservatarian point of view is if people back home are asked to do more than go shopping. Because the broadest group of this war's "supporters" are the ones who don't even think about it. The ones who don't watch the news or read the paper and just hope that everything works out all right in the end. That calculus turns around real quick when Uncle Sam comes to steal your babies. I'm all for it. I'll sign up for the Navy as soon as the announce the draft, but I doubt the war will even last long enough for me to set foot on a ship.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:55:14 AM EST
    Also check out this article at Time: As the armed militias do their bloody work, neither U.S. nor Iraqi forces show any ability to curb them.
    Odd, the assertion that neither the US nor the Iraqis are able to stop the violence is contradicted by this article. I wonder how TIME missed this.
    Military Stryker vehicles saturating Baghdad's most dangerous neighborhoods have been credited with what Iraqi authorities say is a 30 percent drop in violence in the city since the deployment of 5,000 additional U.S. troops to the region.
    While U.S. figures show a 22 percent drop in violence, either way, its good news for the troops.


    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:56:23 AM EST
    Gabe...once our legislators and excutive are elected, they can do whatever they please within the law...they just won't get re-elected. That's another reason I'm for the draft...to see the current crop of bastards tossed out on their keisters.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#29)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:02:26 AM EST
    Gabe, The article you linked to concluded
    The added U.S. troops were brought in after a military operation earlier this summer flooded Baghdad with Iraqi forces, only to find the violence worsened. U.S. commanders say the additional American firepower can be only a temporary solution. "It has to be the Iraq people with the Iraqi security forces that ultimately bring success and security to Baghdad," Beech said. But hope has often gone sour in Iraq. If the country's political leaders cannot make their own peace, America's latest success in Baghdad could quickly reverse.
    [emphasis added]

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:14:45 AM EST
    Molly, The billions of dollars we've spent on Iraq really pain me. According to the Pentagon, through September the U.S. will have spent 102 billion dollars on the war. Here's my modest proposal for a better use for the money - Imagine if the the U.S. had put that money in bonds paying 5% (about what 30 year U.S. treasuries pay right now) and said to the palestinian authority - we'll give you the interest on this 102 billion (i.e. $425 million dollars a month) to spend on infrastructure - housing, roads, sewers, irrigation, power plants, phone lines, hospitals, schools, parks ect. But every attack on Israel is going to cost you $500 million dollars, plus $5 million to the family of each israeli citizen killed and $1 million dollars to each israeli citizen seriously injured, plus the cost of any property destroyed. I'm guessing that the number of terrorist attacks on israel would decrease sharply. Or imagine you bypassed the palestinian authority all togethor and sent a monthly interest check to each palestinian household on the same conditions (this would come out to around $3000 a year per family - which is a lot given that the annual GDP per person in Palestine is around $700) - if each terrorist attack on isreal hit every palestinian family directly in the pocketbook I guarantee that public sentiment toward terrorists would change VERY quickly. These proposals are a little far fetched, but I think they show pretty clearly that the money we spent on Iraq could have done a lot more bring peace to the middle east and reduce support for terrorists.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#31)
    by zak822 on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:19:13 AM EST
    Former Secretary of Defense Cohen was on TV this morning saying he favors a return to the draft. Oops, "national service". I wonder how many "national servicemen" will opt for the combat arms over doing flood control work in the Mid-West.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#32)
    by zak822 on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:35:33 AM EST
    Sorry for the additional post, but I was struck by the number of conservatives here saying the left favors a draft. My, how times do change. They used to call us out for opposing the draft. If any of them are of age to serve in the combat arms, they should hie themselves off the the recruiters. Or is this just more of the old guys sending the young guys out to fight?

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:57:11 AM EST
    Or is this just more of the old guys sending the young guys out to fight?
    As it ever been any different? Old and rich send young and poor....thousand years and counting.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:59:25 AM EST
    My, how times do change. They used to call us out for opposing the draft. It's a lie to say the Left WANTS a draft. Pure 14K BS. We just expect a draft as a part of the progression of the neocons' WOT. The next big hit will seal the deal.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#35)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:20:16 AM EST
    It's a lie to say the Left WANTS a draft. Pure 14K BS. We just expect a draft as a part of the progression of the neocons' WOT. The next big hit will seal the deal.
    I dunno about that. I mean, for that to happen, you'd need something huge - an honest-to-God nuke on American soil. And they've already painted themselves into a corner, with their emphasis on scanning all incoming shipping containers... ...er, I mean, securing those old Soviet nuclear stockpiles... ...er, I mean, at least they're prioritizing probable targets like NYC over, say, Terra Haute... ...God save us.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:29:08 AM EST
    Molly - Sorry about the foul typing. Interesting that you complain though you understand the question very well. And please, the rest of us have no stake in this? Pleaseeeeeeee. If you believe that you are either dumb or arrogant. Since you are not dumb, I lean towards arrogant. And you didn't answer when you would fight, although you did indicate you would "clean up" after the attack. How dashing. How peace loving. And you didn't indicate where you would fight, so I guess the answer is:
    No time. No place. No where.
    No surprise there. scar writes:
    I'm all for it. I'll sign up for the Navy as soon as the announce the draft, but I doubt the war will even last long enough for me to set foot on a ship.
    It is highly doubtful that the Navy would ever need to dtafy. But if you so, it will be for a period of time. Pleae don't complain when they won't let you go home when you decide it's time. You write:
    as soon as they get ahold of a boat.
    You need to observe what's happening in Europe to have a better understanding. hues writes:
    we'll give you the interest on this 102 billion (i.e. $425 million dollars a month) to spend on infrastructure - housing, roads, sewers, irrigation, power plants, phone lines, hospitals, schools, parks ect.
    The problem is that this is not about money. Please catch on.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:30:26 AM EST
    ...God save us. We're in deep kimchi if that's all we got left.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:35:19 AM EST
    Peaches! Wow! you're bad to the bone today! May I add: I am an American. I fear no man, group of men, or country. There are no barbarian hordes on our shores. The only force that can conquer America is that created by unscrupulous war/fear-mongers who want to end our democracy, and by those so frightened by these people that they do not act. I truly believe that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. I swore an oath once to preserve, protect, and defend the U.S. Constitution from all enemies, foreign or domestic. Though we certainly have foreign enemies, they cannot destroy America. It is the domestic enemies of our Constitution (unitary executives who presume plenary power) that pose the greatest threat to America. And, though I would without hesitation give my own life for my country (and very nearly did), I could not and will not ask America's young to fight all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons, simply to glorify the neocon agenda. I am naive enough to believe in truth, justice, and the [old] American Way, but I will never swear allegiance to the country of bush and his republican guard, nor will I ever engage in eternal warfare on their behalf. If a draft is reinstated, i will leave this country behind as my family and I will NEVER allow our son or daughter to die in an Iraqi/Iranian desert for the agenda of false patriots. I am not at all ashamed of or embarrassed by any/all of the above statements. I pray that sanity will soon be restored to our government, that the small men claiming leadership of this once great nation will soon be removed from office, by force if need be, and that their evil words, deeds, and ideas will die with them. But, gosh, I wish I could express this as succinctly as did Peaches. Snap!

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:40:41 AM EST
    I think you just did, Bill...

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#40)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:43:31 AM EST
    Bill Arnett well said, but if there were not such a numerous and rabid audience for the "false patriot"ism you decry, then we would be in a different place, now wouldn't we? As always, I continue to bristle at blaming the public officials who are in the public eye for the ignorant priorities that demarcate Uhmerrikahn consciousness. That it works for them to bring up flag-burning and boys kissing every two years, all the while getting away with wasting thousands of lives in vain, sadly, speaks volumes to the banal character of this populace.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:54:57 AM EST
    Actually glanton, it speaks tom the banality, venality, puerility, and unsatiated subliminal desires of HALF the populace... ...which, IMO, would be bushco and his republican guard, right-wing, rabid-religious, rubberstamping, not-an-original-thought-of-their-own, do-as-they're-told republicans that voted not once, but TWICE for our thoroughly despicable president. But, I could be wrong.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:55:38 AM EST
    Kdog, That's another reason I'm for the draft...to see the current crop of bastards tossed out on their keisters. Having a draft age child in the home gives me a different perspective. There are many people who oppose the war in Iraq who believe that starting the draft would expedite our ultimate disengagement. I agree with that prediction. I do NOT agree with the method. We should be exhausting EVERY other method and resource we have here in this country before we send any more of our people to die for these A-Wholes. I don't think we have done that yet. IMHO the bring-on-the-draft viewpoint is enabling extremist arguments of partial truth tellers like Gabriel Malor et al, as Peaches has so eloquently confirmed with his/her kill shot above.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#43)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 12:04:19 PM EST
    Bill, Clearly, at least to me anyway, it's a little more than half. Witness the utter dominance of all three branches of government by one party. Witness the fact that our MSM (in no particular order chronologically) carries the cult of the missing white woman to no end, obsessed over the Shiavo spectacle, and beat the drums incessantly for war in Iraq right from the start. It is comforting to think that half the population strives against petty prejudices and outright bigotries, is ferociously prtective of civil liberties, and is slow to get behind a war. Comforting but I don't buy it.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 12:07:13 PM EST
    Che...Points taken...and my little bro is still of draft age. I support a draft only because I think it would lead to the rising of the long dormant American populace...and would never sucessfully be implemented. I mean...you would die before they took your son, I'd die before they took my brother.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 12:43:31 PM EST
    Jim,
    hues writes:
    we'll give you the interest on this 102 billion (i.e. $425 million dollars a month) to spend on infrastructure - housing, roads, sewers, irrigation, power plants, phone lines, hospitals, schools, parks ect.
    The problem is that this is not about money. Please catch on.
    The conflict isn't about the money, but I think carrots could be more effective than sticks in solving the problem for a couple reasons: a) it would create a real monetary incentive for the palestinian government to clamp down on terrorists (Israel and the U.S. have always criticized them for not doing this - this would provide direct and substantial incentives and penalties that might actually work. And isn't this really the same rational for Israel non-hezbolah infrastructure in lebanon, like the airport?); b) a massive infrastructure project with the proceeds would provide a lot of jobs (wide scale unemployment among young men is a big source of the problem); and c) making millionaires out of the families of every israeli killed might take from the satisfaction of killing (especially when those millions come from your own schools and hospitals).

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:01:23 PM EST
    Kdog, I wouldn't want to die to keep my kid from getting drafted. I couldn't do much for him in that state. But they would try to kill me to silence my opposition. That's the risk.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Slado on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:04:09 PM EST
    Funny how TL complains about Repubs using terrorism to scare the public then uses the possibility (however remote) of a draft to scare the same people. Didn't this scare tactic fizzle out in 2004 the last time it was tried? flipside is the real threaat of terrorism works. Worked in 2002 and 2004. So I gues when your scare tactics of global warming, draft, welfare, minimum wage etc... don't work then you have to attack the scare tactics that do. Pot this is kettle.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#48)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:11:26 PM EST
    Slado why don't you be intellectually honest? It is the "threat" of boys kissing that worked, and continues to work. The "threat" of Janet Jackson's cleavage, the "threat" of somewhere burning a flag. The "threat" of McCain's "black child." Those are the kinds of "threats" that work, and have worked the last several elections, and unless you've been drinking a lot of anti-freeze, you know it. M

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:13:34 PM EST
    Slado: Funny how TL complains about Repubs using terrorism to scare the public then uses the possibility (however remote) of a draft to scare the same people. It only looks that way from that side of the mirror, I mean rorrim, odalS. Slado, I mean...

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:14:35 PM EST
    Bill, I agree with all your sentiments, espcially concerning fear. I agree with Glantons politics also, but I don't share his view of our fellow Americans. The majority opinion may not be currently blowing in the direction of democracy. But, I am not concerned with opinions. I am striving to achieve democracy along with many other Americans. America allows a diverse array of worldviews. I am not advanced (evolved) enough to declare that other's worldviews are banal. I can only engage them in discussion and attempt to pursuade them that I have a better means for achieving democracy, while being open to the possibity that that there idea could be better than mine - if I allow myself to listen intently enough. Because there is another virtue I could add to being on the left or of a liberal mind. 11. I am not guided by convictions and recognize the inherent mystery of the universe. This virue can also be a vice, because it places one at a disadvantage when arguing against someone guided by conviction - some one who knows what the right answer is to every question. Obviously, humans seek clarity and the simple is sometimes most clear. Thus, the world can be divided between right and wrong and Americans can be divided in half and some our on one side and some are on another. If only thngs were this simple. Glanton is missing some important qualities necessary to be a liberal or leftist or democratic or to understand what it means to be part of this experiment called America. He lacks hope. Especially in his fellow Americans - who he refers to as Uhmerrikhans. He lacks love, for his fellow Americans and humanity. He is guided by conviciton. He believes he is right and above a discussion with people who have views in direct opposition to him. I still love him, however and hope he will come around one day to see the beauty in this idea called America that we are all a part of and that we all have to take the responsibility for delivering the care it needs to keep achieving the goals set out for us many years ago.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:18:59 PM EST
    Peaches: I am not guided by convictions and recognize the inherent mystery of the universe. I always liked the Bertrand Russel quote in the masthead of The Anonymous Liberal blog:
    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."


    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#52)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:41:37 PM EST
    Yes, PPJ, we all know about the seething unassimilated muslim minorities in Europe. But I think there's one thing missing from Islamic Fascism: an Islamic Hitler. Who's it gonna be? Osama? The guy who spent years terrorizing Muslims in Egypt? It was only a decade ago that thousands demonstrated against him in the streets of the Middle East while his compatriots were hunted down by nearly every government. Afghanistan wasn't just the last place that would take him, it was the last place that wouldn't shoot him on sight. (Of course, George Bush and his enablers managed to do the unthinkable and turn this monster into a hero.) Ahmadinejad? A Shi'ite? Iran stands about as good a chance of uniting the Muslim world as Pat Robertson stands of uniting all the world's Catholics. And Pat doesn't usually threaten to kill all of us. No, I think the real danger is the national greatness romanticism on both sides. The neocons think that we Americans will rise up united if they just start the right war. The jihadists think that all the Muslims will rise up if, well, they have pretty similar ideas, don't they. Except that everyone's wrong. Zawahiri had the "apostate" Egyptian president killed. Everyone involved was executed. Even 9/11 resulted mostly in candlelight vigils for the fallen Americans. Of course, George Bush came through to help the jihadists beyond their wildest dreams with his nonsensical invasion of Iraq. Speaking of Iraq, of course, its failure has been so complete that the government regularly refuses to admit that the war even has a cost, much less propose that it should be paid for, for fear that the 1% Mandate might have second thoughts. I just can't help but wonder why all the war supporters are deathly afraid of putting their money (and their kids' lives) where their mouth is. Isn't that what supportin'-tha-troops is all about?

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:44:28 PM EST
    Hues - The radical moslems don't care about money. They are motivated by hatred, and hatred alone. Your belief that can be "bought off" is juuvenile and flies in face of everything they have said and done. Remember what OBL said when he was asked if the jihad would stop if we left the Arabian Pennisula. OBL interview Peter Arnnett CNN 3/97.
    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ? BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    edger Nice quote about liberals. Unfortunately it isn't believed in by the Left. Glanton - I could disagree on all three, but will focus on this one:
    The "threat" of Janet Jackson's cleavage,
    Quite a few people I know, including yours truly, took the position that it was the demonstrated violence against women... the ripping off their clothes... that we found objectional. What a terrible example to boys. Bill - I tell you the same thing I told scar. It isn't military battles per se that you have to worry about. It is the slow degradatiohn of our liberties to the PC crowd. Our newspapers refusing to publish the cartoons. The approving through silence of the honor killings in europe... I say again. Look at what is happening in europe. You must recognize that as a threat.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#54)
    by Sailor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:01:06 PM EST
    The radical moslems don't care about money. They are motivated by hatred, and hatred alone.
    the only reason rhetoric like this is used is to de-humanize the 'enemy.' ppj wouldn't know their motivation if it was seared into his retina becausae he doesn't want to know. He has zero desire to understand any solution except the 'final' one. He just wants to see the same cowboy black/white film that bush does.
    it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    shouldn't be hard to stop doing that, and it seems to be a reasonable request.
    It is the slow degradatiohn of our liberties to the PC crowd.
    as opposed to the rapid ones that bush has made.
    Quite a few people I know, including yours truly, took the position that it was the demonstrated violence against women
    oh, please! that's the lamest excuse I ever heard. the FCC didn't fineCBS for that, that's just an afterthought some cretin came up with to justify the WOT (war on ti++ies) that the religiofascists in this country are waging.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#55)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:01:58 PM EST
    edger Nice quote about liberals. Unfortunately it isn't believed in by the Left.
    Jim, I believe it. Edger believes it. If you'd believe it, we'd be off to a good start. ;)

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#56)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:04:10 PM EST
    Peaches, I appreciate the "love" but as a general rule muist object to being mischaracterized, which is what your description of me is, for the most part. Most emblematic of what you say about me is this comment:
    He is guided by conviction. He believes he is right and above a discussion with people who have views in direct opposition to him.
    Now, that comment ought to come across as odd to those who have been following this blog for the past some three years or so. I have debated any willing commenter, I don't post comments and then ignore responses, and have been rhetorically beaten on this very site, and cheerfully admitted it, several times, and expect for it to happen many more. If I didn't feel that I could grow from visiting Talk Left I would not. As for the charge that I lack hope, this is true in terms of our political process and the intellectual/spiritual direction we're moving in. I call this country Uhmerrikah because time and time again this slickest soundbite and the lowest common denominator is what wins out. All that, and of course the almighty dollar. But you know, Peaches, you and so many othercritics of Bush can hammer away at his policies as much as you want, but eventually you need to let go of the schtick that he and the other Republicans are fooling otherwise well-intentioned people. At some point you will have to accept that, from Jesse Helms's race-baiting ads against Harvey Gant to Bush Elder's accusation that Willie Horton was going to be Dukakis' running mate to (lest we forget) Reagans's insinuation that AIDS victims get what the deserve to the current Bush's assault on McCain in 2000 South Carolina and his stoking of the homophobe flames in 2004 and on and on and on--the common thread in all of this is that people fall for it every damned time. They may not have health care, but what really gets their goat is the idea that somebody might burn a flag. So accept that this is the populace we are part of, Peaches. And then, good luck convincing them not to hate Mexicans and gays and sexually active unmarried women and all the other Others, engage them in the discourse of love and pat yourself on the back for it. I wish you well. (Also good luck avoiding the fact that the Democratic Party is just as beholden to corporate interests as the GOP, but that's another discussion for another day).

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:06:31 PM EST
    Sailor: He has zero desire to understand any solution except the 'final' one. He just wants to see the same cowboy black/white film that bush does. The trouble is, he's been listening, as usual, to the wrong guy saying "I Want YOU - To Invade Iraq!" The Osama bin Laden Challenge: 1800 Days and Counting
    One chronologist has just noted that it has been exactly 1,800 days since George W. Bush said he would get Osama bin Laden. What got in the way of Bush's plan? Two things -- Dick Cheney and Iraq. Had Bush stayed on track, shut down bin Laden and gotten to work on redressing some of the bubbling grievances in the Middle East, the world might look substantially different today.


    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:17:56 PM EST
    Now, that comment ought to come across as odd to those who have been following this blog for the past some three years or so.
    Glanton, I retract a portion of that statement and apologize for the mischaracterization. You have been a willing debator while I have been participating at TL. But, I still feel you are guided by conviction. A conviction that America is utterly hopeless because of the makeup of our character. I see the faults of America and Americans everyday. I acknowledge and attempt to confront them. But, I have kept my inherent belief in America and our pursuit of the ideals of America, however much we stumble along the way. I'll keep it until I am facing O'brien with the rat-cage. I believe in it and us until the nuclear holocaust. I'll believe in it and us until I face the executioner for my beliefs. Until then, All I have is hope and love for humanity which includeds All Americans.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#59)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:27:01 PM EST
    "Bill - I tell you the same thing I told scar. It isn't military battles per se that you have to worry about. It is the slow degradatiohn of our liberties to the PC crowd. Our newspapers refusing to publish the cartoons. The approving through silence of the honor killings in europe... I say again. Look at what is happening in europe. You must recognize that as a threat." PPJ I thought, however inartfully expressed, that this is EXACTLY what we have been saying here today-but thank you for restating the arguement in other terms and a different perspective. Every viewpoint is valuable and this is an importent distinction. I tend to agree. BTW, welcome Glanton, your input is also very important and we need to consider ALL viewpoints. As for me, my afternoon morphine just kicked in, which will render me a babbling fool (be nice, PPJ!) so, regretfully, I must tend to my health and "sign off for today". Had this been an actual emergency you would have been advised to kiss your arse good-bye since bush and his republican guard couldn't protect a wet paper bag. Peace, all, "see" you tomorrow. Bill

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#60)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:28:54 PM EST
    Peaches, I appreciate the retraction and, whether you believe it or not, I am more than a little envious of your burning optimism, and at times try to re-ignite the candle for myself. But this thread, and people like Slado's reaction to it, is the kind of thing that extinguishes such flames rather quickly. The possibility of a draft is a real threat as opposed to the fake threats of homosexuality, political dissent, and Janet's cleavage. If only people would recognize that threat and then extrapolate from there the uselesness of the deaths of our current volunteers.... And Jim: Spare us the sanctimony, please. When a man celebrates, wraps jingo after jingo around, mass violence, and calls that celebration patriotism, and does it consistently, he really shouldn't expect to be taken seriously when he affects worry over the molding of young men. Stay alert, and stay with FOX.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#61)
    by desertswine on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 03:00:14 PM EST
    But this thread, and people like Slado's reaction to it, is the kind of thing that extinguishes such flames rather quickly.
    Glanton, don't let the r-wing a55holes who post here get you down. That's what they're trying to do.
    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act."


    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 03:03:20 PM EST
    Great thread. Peaches...I too admire your optimism for the future of humanity. The ideals you and I hold dear are merely part of the story. They are ideals we rarely achieve or maintain for long. The rest of the story is how humanity often acts no better than territorial animals killing each other. I hope the ideals are the rule, and not the exception...but I can't say for sure. People like you and I believe the ideals are our best shot at a continued existence...too many believe the best shot is killing the other guy (or drafting a guy to kill the other guy, boy are we smart!) for his resources....like a territorial animal.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 03:14:08 PM EST
    Jim
    The radical moslems don't care about money. They are motivated by hatred, and hatred alone. Your belief that can be "bought off" is juuvenile and flies in face of everything they have said and done. Remember what OBL said when he was asked if the jihad would stop if we left the Arabian Pennisula.
    I agree that you can't buy off al Quaeda - that's not what my proposal is aimed at. My proposal is aimed at creating strong and direct monetary incentives for the palestinian government and people to clamp down on the terrorists. That they haven't done this in good faith has always been a real complaint, and Israel has repeatedly targeted the palestinian government and its infrastructure for failing to do so. The radical moslems might not care about money, but in a poverty stricken area like the West Bank and Gaza I can guarantee you that everybody else does. Sure the vast majority of palestinians may give a rats ass about whether terrorists kill israelis, but if each terrorist attack takes money directly out of their pocket, public sentiment is going to turn against the terroists in palestine. And if that happens and you get some modicum of peace, it's going to hurt al Quaeda a lot.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#64)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 05:49:03 PM EST
    "A revolutionary acts out of love for his (or her) country" Che (Parentheses mine)

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#66)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 07:15:18 PM EST
    glanton - Your problem remains that you won't accept the fact that the other side also has values and also cares about things. That severely limits you.
    Typical Jim. Highlights the futility of debating him. He just keeps on making pronouncements, much like the succession of ersatz rhetoric you get at the GOP convention. Though his words are "directed" at me, he addresses nothing I have said. Even a second grader could go back, read my comments, read Jim's pretended response to them, and understand that he's not in fact debating. He prefers to spew. Because the flip side of spewing would be a discussion. Which would require straying from the trie little soundbites. Which requires thought.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#67)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 08:37:53 PM EST
    sailor, in all fairness, Jim leapt upon the topic of JJ's boob because I broght it up. I brought it up as an example of what a real red herring is, because every time TL posts something about the draft, we get these wingers in here complaining that it's a non issue. That being said, I was amused, but wasn't at all surprised that Jim elaborated on JJ's boob as a legitimate issue upon which votes should be cast. See, it's complicated. Jim would support any Uhmerrikahn war with or without the draft, and the more killed, the more reason to keep sending more in. No reason is needed. No definition of victory is needed. No exit plan is needed. Just kill kill kill. But then at the same time, you know, he worries a lot about young men being exposed to violence. Thus constant war=good example for young men; JJ's boob being exposed==bad example. See?

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:45:16 PM EST
    deleted, please stay on topic. The draft.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:52:29 PM EST
    You all miss the basic point: a draft is historically out of character for this country. The draft was held over after WWII due to the cold war, but after 1972, things went back to normal. The bottom line is, there's not going to be a draft - not now, not anytime soon. TL brings this topic up on a semi-regular basis, whenever the normal partisan attacks don't seem to be working out. Maybe I should start an over/under pool on the next post like this.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:54:18 PM EST
    James, the subject comes up when I read it elsewhere in the news.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#70)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:04:16 PM EST
    JM, I told him that at 9:36 AM. We're the wall. It's his head. What more can we do?

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#71)
    by soccerdad on Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 05:28:28 AM EST
    JR must anwser the question of how the war can continue for much longer never mind expand into Iran and Syria. Even if we dont send troops to Iran the act of attacking Iran will cause the Iraq Shias to turn against the US in a big way. What do you do? Come on JR let us know your big ideas on how to keep this fiasco going with too few troops and a shrinking supply of equipment.

    Re: Is There a Draft in Your Kid's Future? (none / 0) (#72)
    by glanton on Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 06:58:31 PM EST
    Oh, Peaches, I almost forgot: Speaking of debating the character of Uhmerrikah, don't you, as an optimist, find it at least somewhat troubling that only in the event of an actual draft would this country's young people stand up and get serious about something beyond material gratification A big part of decency is being able to project past the whims of your own immediate circumstance. That, Uhmerrikah's not great at. Which is why, in my opinion, the draft is such a catalyst here.