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Staying a Disastrous Course

By TChris, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 08:11:03 AM EST
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by TChris

One cost of staying the course in Iraq:

The Marine Corps said Tuesday that it would begin calling Marines back to active-duty service on an involuntary basis to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan -- the latest sign that the American force is under strain and a signal that the military is having trouble persuading young veterans to return.

Marine commanders will call up formerly active-duty service members now classified as reservists because the Corps failed to find enough volunteers among its emergency reserve pool to fill jobs in combat zones. The call-ups will begin in several months, summoning as many as 2,500 reservists at a time to serve for a year or more.

For much of the conflict, the Army also has had to use "stop-loss orders" -- which keep soldiers in their units even after their active-duty commitments are complete -- as well as involuntary call-ups of its reservists. Both actions have been criticized as a "back-door draft" and are unpopular with service members, many of whom say they have already done their part.

"You can send Marines back for a third or fourth time, but you have to understand you are destroying their lives," said Paul Rieckhoff, founder of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America. "It is not what they intended the all-volunteer military to look like."

Another cost: the military is so desparate for bodies that recruiters have increasingly felt free to engage in misconduct, including the sexual assault of recruits.

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    Staying a Disastrous Course | 32 comments (32 topical)
    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 09:48:50 AM EST
    Since he's not going to leave Iraq, do you support a draft? Don't say you would pull the troops - that's obviously not one of the options.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 09:59:15 AM EST
    pull the troops - that's obviously not one of the options. As a matter of fact bocajeff, it is one of the options. There is a two-word answer John Kerry gave three decades ago when asked -- "How can we get our troops out of a disastrous war?" Then, the clear-minded, tall young man said, "In ships."

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#3)
    by desertswine on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 10:12:09 AM EST
    U.S. involvement in Iraq has been incredibly successful and developments there have been "nothing short of a miracle," Sen. James Inhofe said Monday.
    What disastrous course?

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#4)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 10:43:08 AM EST
    Does anyone else find it odd that the IRR marines and soldiers have to be called up when allegedly the recruiting targets have been met or exceeded for 14 month?

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 10:51:23 AM EST
    Sailor, yes, sort of. But also sort of not. It doesn't add up sensibly, but then again neither does virtually everything else bushco does add up, except to disaster and eventual self destruction. Itr would be good though if they didn't take so many lives with them. Hopefully people will remeber that in November.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#6)
    by cpinva on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:02:17 AM EST
    what drugs is sen. inhofe on, and where can i get some? yes bocajeff, i do support a draft, as anyone with a brain should. why? because it's the only way to bring this war home to the average american, who currently has little personally at risk. should the draft be reinstated, watch the president's approval #'s drop like a stone, to near zero, i'd wager. as it stands, only a very tiny % of our citizens have a direct dog in this fight, so they pay little attention. this is how the MSM has gotten away with practically no mention of either iraq or afghanistan for the past almost two months. the first draftees should be all those that were so gung-ho on iraq to begin with, make them put their bodies where their mouth is. yes edgar, it is one of the options, though not necessarily the best. we broke it, we are obligated to fix it. that said, it doesn't require that we keep either the same leadership (and i use that term in its loosest sense), or the same plan, assuming there ever was one. it would be horribly unfair to the iraqi people for us to just declare victory and leave, having pretty much wrecked their country, and leaving them to the tender mercies of the various religious militias. not to mention, but i must, leaving all that oil up for grabs. since we have no viable alternative energy program, we are kind of stuck for the moment. remember all this in november. sailor, all you need do, to achieve your quotas, is lower your quota. that's what's been done. it doesn't actually fill the void, but you met your target.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:10:18 AM EST
    all you need do, to achieve your quotas, is lower your quota. Well, yes. If you lower your standards and you sights enough, you can achieve any heights you aim at. bushco has certainly brought that point home quite clearly.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:10:34 AM EST
    I had already been in the Army for a year before I heard about the eight-year obligation. They sure didn't mention it when I was signing up.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#10)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:14:18 AM EST
    We are in the middle of a botched surgery and the patient is bleeding. What do we do?
    call in another surgeon, IOW, cry for help. Countries around the world would be willing to help if we didn't insist on this failed 'stay the course.' We are helping to cause the civil war so we can't be the ones to fix it. Just as you wouldn't want the surgeon who botched the job try to repair it.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:14:48 AM EST
    Terry, would you have signed if they had mentioned it?

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#12)
    by Bill Arnett on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:37:59 AM EST
    "sailor, all you need do, to achieve your quotas, is lower your quota. that's what's been done. it doesn't actually fill the void, but you met your target." cpinva You are spot on with this remark. Ever go back a few months after Bush has been bragging about how strong the economy is and seen the downward revisions that prove the lies of this administration? But, on topic, it is extremely difficult serving in a war zone, having to always walk that razor's edge, always aware that your next breath could be your last, the worry of how your family will survive if you are killed or permanently disabled by injury, wondering how much longer you can hold out and fight off the effects of constant exhaustion while counting down the days until you ship out to go home. To me, this is a crime, thoughtlessly and recklessly forcing soldiers to endure tour after tour, extended tours, and being called back to serve yet another tour after you have survived all the previous tours. This will have egregious, very serious consequences in later years, and contemporaneously, for these troops in the form of unexplained illnesses, PTSD, readjustment difficulties, and a whole raft of problems with which the civilian populace is unfamiliar. But these problems are well-known to the generals and civilians at the Pentagon who keep endlessly repeating the mistakes they should have learned from in Vietnam and Gulf War I, which, to me, makes them no less culpable than the idiot who ordered the illegal attack on a sovereign nation that posed no threat to us. Our military is broken. There is not a single brigade capable of engaging an enemy here in America. That is a shocking state of affairs and should alone be sufficient justification to remove the commander-in-chief whom has so badly mis-managed every single aspect of the war on terror. Terrorist attacks have gone up four-fold and are more deadly than ever. Iraq, and now Lebanon, have become both the greatest terrorist recruiting tools in the world AND provides the killing fields where they may be trained to further increase the intensity of attacks and greatly increase the number of fatalities from those attacks. If this is "winning" the war on terror, I'll eat PPJ's hat.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#13)
    by cpinva on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:42:20 AM EST
    actually terry, it was part of your contract, had you bothered to read it. consider yourself lucky, had this been wwII, your contract would have been for the "duration of the conflict", not a set # of years. it has been a standard part of the enlistment contract since at least vietnam, probably longer. it isn't at all surprising that the recruiter didn't mention it, since it isn't nearly as enticing as money for college. of course, they probably also made little, if any, mention of the possibility that you might find yourself in a combat zone, since that might've turned you off. this is a good reason for having parents or guardians directly involved in the recruiting process, so kids have at least a realistic clue what they're getting themselves into. my son is just 16, and already being pursued. practically every male on both sides of the family has military experience (marine corps, army, navy), with two in active combat. you should hear the nonsense he's being told by these guys! all we can do is try to point out all the issues, not just the goodies. i have no problem with him enlisting when he graduates h.s., i just want him doing so as a fully informed person.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#14)
    by Punchy on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:53:28 AM EST
    Hard to believe....or not...but they're recalling some over 60 years old Grampa in the Marines. Good Lord, what has become of our military?

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#15)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:54:14 AM EST
    What are the marines going to do when they run out of working equipment.
    Over the past three years the Marine Corps has maintained 40 percent of its ground equipment, 50 percent of its communications equipment, and 20 percent of its aviation assets in Iraq. This equipment is used at as much as nine times its planned rate, abused by a harsh environment, and depleted due to losses in combat. To maintain acceptable readiness levels, the Marines have been taking equipment from non-deployed units and drawing down Maritime Prepositioned stocks, including equipment stored in Europe, thus limiting their ability to respond to contingencies outside of Iraq.
    link

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:00:06 PM EST
    Here's how I would quell the fighting in Iraq and bring the troops home. I would delete the following bold text from the Iraqi constitution: Article 108: Oil and gas are the ownership of all the people of Iraq in all the regions and governorates. Article 109: First: The federal government with the producing governorates and regional governments shall undertake the management of oil and gas extracted from current fields provided that it distributes oil and gas revenues in a fair manner in proportion to the population distribution in all parts of the country with a set allotment for a set time for the damaged regions that were unjustly deprived by the former regime and the regions that were damaged later on, and in a way that assures balanced development in different areas of the country, and this will be regulated by law. Second: The federal government with the producing regional and governorate governments shall together formulate the necessary strategic policies to develop the oil and gas wealth in a way that achieves the highest benefit to the Iraqi people using the most advanced techniques of the market principles and encourages investment. Article 115: One or more governorates shall have the right to organize into a region based on a request to be voted on in a referendum submitted in one of the following two methods: A. A request by one-third of the council members of each governorate intending to form a region. B. A request by one-tenth of the voters in each of the governorates intending to form a region.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#17)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:41:20 PM EST
    Hell, I'm an able-bodied 21 year old male, and I support a draft. Why? Because I know that not a damn one of the soccer moms I see driving around with yellow ribbons on their Suburbans would let their precious Matt or Justyn get pulled from his frat house and sent to get his face blown off in the desert so that The Decider can kick the can down the hall a little longer. They may not bat an eye at the legions of inner-city blacks with nowhere else to go returning with an arm and a leg missing. They may not grasp the mountain of debt that Justyn and Matt will have to pay off armed only with their worthless MBAs. And they hope that the Republicans will subsidize those $60 and $70 trips to the gas station with another tax cut. But if there's one thing that will end this godforsaken Strangelovian neocon debacle, it's when their mindless suburban enablers actually end up footing the bill with their own flesh and blood. Scratch that, it's not one thing, it's the only thing. So I say, bring it on. Start up the draft. All this "All-Volunteer Army of Tomorrow!" talk is nonsense anyway, when you can be an overweight autistic with webbed feet and still have all four branches fighting over you just so somebody can go out there and take an IED for the team. Oh, and for all you wingnuts: it's what Strauss would have done. Or whatever.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:47:43 PM EST
    edger - Yeah, I would have still signed even if I had known about it. I was desperate. cpinva - It was foolish of me to sign without reading the fine print, no matter how intimidated I was or how fast they flashed the papers by in front of me. Did I mention I was desperate?

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#19)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:10:37 PM EST
    If those serving our country do not mind the deployment, then who cares? Too much emphasis from the left about bringing them home serves as fodder for the right. I vote that those who have joined voluntarily serve as long as they are needed, recall or otherwise. I would love to see them home and I am sure many of them would love to be home. Who are we to speak for their families? Let them come home when the rank and file say they have had enough. True, the military does not take to kindly to that sort of insubordination but the families can make a stink about their welfare. I think we should argue about the costs of the war and the net result, not the troops well being. It is ironic that the demos who want them to come home feel that way because the loss of life in this war seems meaningless as opposed to the way is it spun "cut and run". We want them home because we care, but they have to want to come home first.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#20)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:32:39 PM EST
    It was foolish of me to sign without reading the fine print, no matter how intimidated I was or how fast they flashed the papers by in front of me. Did I mention I was desperate?
    why should troops be subject to lower informed consent standards than my patients? I can't even interview a subject w/o telling them all the risks and benefits of the testing in a verbal and written forms that were approved by an independent IRB and I deal in the 'minimal risk' category. Obviously joining the mil is not 'minimal risk.'

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#21)
    by john horse on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:35:36 PM EST
    The fact that the Marines are being called back on an involuntary basis shows the extent that Bush is weakening our country. Lets not get diverted by this talk about a draft. Just not going to happen. I don't support a draft. Why do we need to "bring the war home" when the overwhelming majority of Americans are opposed to this war?

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#22)
    by Bill Arnett on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:28:31 PM EST
    "If those serving our country do not mind the deployment, then who cares? Too much emphasis from the left about bringing them home serves as fodder for the right." Jlvngstn The latest polls of the soldiers shows they do want to come home. The majority of the American people want them to come home. Bush insists they stay. And your comment seems to indicate a lack of military experience, or else you would recognize the above quote is, kindly put, malarkey. It does not matter one twit to the prez and the Pentagon what the troops think, or even what is in their best interest (lack of armored vehicles, vests, helmet liners, bad, outdated food, contaminated water, repeated tours and forced callbacks, just to name a few). Troops go where they're told, when they're told, and do what they're told. That you think everything must be just fine since they are not committing mutiny is disengenuous at best. Your, "...who cares? must stand the contrast of attempts to protect our soldiers from the reckless "Stay the course" attitude of Bush, and the remark shows nothing but disregard for the troops and earnest efforts to save their lives in spite of the Republican Guard of King George. Screw what the right thinks. Just because they say it, doesn't make it true (like WMDs, Saddam's connection to 9/11, "We know precisely where these weapons are.", mobile chemical weapons labs, drones capable of releasing chemical/biological agents within 45 minutes if ordered, etc, etc, etc, etc, and etc). No, this illegal war, poor planning, lack of preparation, inadequate troop levels and the many myriad mistakes made prosecuting this war demonstrates to the world that we are indeed a paper tiger. No wonder 54% of Americans do not trust or consider Bush to be honest. According to the Peter Principle, Bush has achieved his level of incompetence.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#23)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 05:01:33 PM EST
    If those serving our country do not mind the deployment, then who cares? Too much emphasis from the left about bringing them home serves as fodder for the right.
    I'm a veteran. I'm guessing you aren't. It's fun to play toy soldiers with other people's lives, but not if you're the other people.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 05:31:00 PM EST
    These people probobly have never thought much beyond the fact that the phrase "Stay the course" goes over with certain focus groups.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 06:37:52 PM EST
    i don't think anything good can come from the presence of US troops in Iraq. And until there has been an honest assessment of what is actually going on and why, it will just be daily carnage and empty words.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#26)
    by john horse on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 06:53:42 PM EST
    So what ever happened to the all "volunteer" army? It aint a volunteer army if they are being called back to serve on an involuntary basis. What is sad is that so many of these men and women have already served in Iraq. As was mentioned, some have already served two or three tours in Iraq. I understand that soldiers must follow orders and fight in wars no matter how light and transient the reasons but to ask our servicemen to put their lives on the line more than once for George Bush enters the realm of cruel and inhumane punishment.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 07:15:48 PM EST
    Here's a link to a little primer on the situation in Iraq: Seven Hair-Raising Realities About the Iraq War By Michael Schwartz, Tomdispatch.com. Posted August 22, 2006. http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/40629/

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 07:20:10 PM EST
    link

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#29)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 08:17:08 PM EST
    There's a new concept; Marines as an occupation force. Another innovative military concept from the PNAC's Operation Iraqi Liberation, which is actually just a bunch of Rumsfeld's snowflakes neatly stapled together. We can call it "Don's Little Yellow Book" of military wisdom.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#30)
    by Aaron on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 09:44:42 PM EST
    Hard to believe anyone on the left would be pushing for a draft, because as we all know George W. Bush hasn't responded to the will of his people in the past, and Congress has been all but neutered by the White House, what makes you think George W. Bush would do so now? Tens of thousands of bright young kids would be sent off to die for nothing once again. Countless futures cut off by the criminals we have the White House. Sorry, but I will do everything in my power to prevent that from ever happening again. Going to war is no joke, there's a good chance you won't come back, so I would never for one instant suggest instituting a draft which ropes innocent Americans into joining this misbegotten unconstitutional carnage. People's children would be sent off to die, and they would have virtually no say in the matter. But those of you on the right have nothing to worry about because very soon military service will be compulsory for everyone in America, the way it is in Israel. Soon everyone 18 your old will be required to put in at least four years of service, with the government holding the option to extend it to eight years or more, if they find your position particularly valuable. It sickens and disgusts me to see our military being used so badly, by this band of idiot moron uber-losers who never put in a real day of service to their country in their lives. Things keep going the way they're going and pretty soon they'll be able to change the Marine slogan to "The Few, the Proud... the Dead."

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#31)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 06:01:16 AM EST
    Mr. Arnett, please provide links to your polls and military personnel that are saying they want the war to end. Your ASSumption on my military service is wrong. Your ASSumption on my knowledge of said service is also wrong. I believe that the families of the military should voice their complaints and speak up. It is much harder to do when you are in the military but I said it sucked all the time whilst I was in. The military looks at the left as weak and non appreciative of their sacrifice etc. The left is the side that has been calling for them to come home SAFELY and they still love the right. You want to come home use your own voices. As for me, I will continue to protest the cost of the war and the lack of vision in foreign policy. Please do not ask all of us on the left to demand that troops come home to their families, until their families do so themselves.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 06:03:29 AM EST
    Repack, honorably discharged 95B. I do not speak for the soldiers or their families, are you saying that because you are a veteran, you do? Please provide links of protests and appeals from soldiers' families to come home. I would gladly help fund them.

    Re: Staying a Disastrous Course (none / 0) (#33)
    by Sailor on Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 08:40:32 AM EST
    Approval of the president's Iraq policy fell 9 percentage points from 2004; a bare majority, 54 percent, now say they view his performance on Iraq as favorable.
    More than half of North Carolina military members surveyed in the latest Elon University poll disapprove of President Bush's handling of the war in Iraq and his overall job performance.
    More can be found here.

    Staying a Disastrous Course | 32 comments (32 topical)