home

Tuesday Open Thread

Time for readers to take over. Here's a fresh thread for whatever's on your mind.

< UK Considers Racial Profiling, U.S. Moves to Psychological Profiling | O'Reilly Proving He's a Sexual Cretin, Yet Again? >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by HK on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:31:55 AM EST
    TalkLeft is running extremely slowly for me. Much slower than usual and much slower than other sites. Is anyone else having this problem?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Sumner on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:32:13 AM EST
    The "Alphabet Troll" posts an average of 5 posts a day on Usenet, crossposting to myriad binary groups devoted to youth and modeling. Here is one of "Alphabet Troll"'s very typical posts (curiously, it appeared within several hours of my visiting a Web site exploring shivs):

    Subject: More Prison Info From: *sdjjfff

    A popular misconception floated by the liberal media is that once convicted of CP you will be incarcerated in some sort of "special unit" where you will be protected from threats and violence. This is, of course, untrue. You also won't be going to some sort of minimum security country club prison.

    Once convicted you will be dumped into a maximum security prison like every other convicted felon. You will be housed with the "regular" inmate population. There won't be any special provisions for your safety. The only obligation they have is to provide you with clothing, food and a cell to sleep in.

    You will have plenty of time alone with inmates who hate you. All it takes is about 15-30 seconds for another inmate to kill you by stabbing (its amazing how many objects can be sharpened if you work at it a little) or strangling. Another way it may happen is that a small piece of plastic can be sharpened to cut your throat on a chow line, shower,etc.

    At the very least you will live your life like a hunted animal with its back to the wall every waking minute. You won't even sleep for fear of what your cellmates will do. If they don't kill you outright you will at the very least become a human punching bag for everyone on a daily basis.

    A good example is the priest in Massachusetts who was convicted and incarcerated for child molestation. He was killed the 2nd week in prison. Another inmate wedged the door open at lock-up, walked in, and strangled him with a sock. This was a very high profile case and nobody gave a damn.



    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:43:35 AM EST
    Its slow for me and sometimes it won't load. I thought that was just because I'm a troll.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:43:46 AM EST
    HK: TalkLeft is running extremely slowly for me I was having similar problems all day yesterday. Whenever I previewed or posted I would get no reponse, with an endless 'waiting for talkleft.com' message. I would open the site in another window go to the thread I had just posted to and find my post there, whith the original window still 'waiting'. Since this is my first post today I won't know if the problem is gone till I hit 'post'.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by desertswine on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:44:14 AM EST
    Bush declares victory over Hezbollah. Our Leader has no contact with reality, and has been verified as a nut-case.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:45:29 AM EST
    Further to my post above... same problem appearing when I 'post', but not when I 'preview'.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:47:24 AM EST
    HK. Very much so, it's been slow for a while, but I find that from five to six o clock it might be down to the ten million kids that log on. I'm even getting a message up that says "your comments are waiting for acceptance" or similar, post again later. Slado. What field of engineering are you in?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by HK on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:49:39 AM EST
    Edger - same problem for me; 'preview' is fine but 'post' takes forever. I remember Jeralyn saying something about problems of this nature a while ago. Looks like they're back. (Sadly doesn't seem to be slowing JimakaPPJ down, though.)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:49:51 AM EST
    In fairness to GW what is he supposed to say? If the peace holds and Hezzbollah isn't in control of southern lebanon don't they lose? If your point is that this isn't likely then I agree with you. Either Hezzbollah will see the writing on the wall and re-attackh Isreal blaming them for some minor reason or the UN will come in and again allow Hezzbollah to attempt to control Southern Lebanon. Then they will have won. Now it's a draw.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:53:17 AM EST
    I'm in HVAC. Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning. By training I'm a Mechanical Engineer. Heat Transfer, Dynamics, Kinetics, Electrical etc...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:53:57 AM EST
    Sumner. I have just had a look at the "shivs" site. Definately one for the "cor blimey" file.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:00:47 AM EST
    Yes TL is running extremely slow for me too. Especially for commenting, the last one took over five minutes to load.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by peacrevol on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:40:55 AM EST
    I know none of yall watch the O'Reilly factor on Fox News, but I saw last night where he was interviewing a member of CAIR who was opposed to Bush's use of the term Islamic Fascists. The CAIR guy's point was that nobody ever called anybody Christian anything negative. He made sence b/c the title of islamic fascist more or less puts the whole religion of islam under the category, and if not it definately singles out their religion. O'Reilly's point was that they are a stateless enemy and all that they hold in common is that they are islamic. It does, to me, enforce a negative stereotype of islam which might damage the name of the true religion of islam. i personally am a christian, but i think that titles are important and we should be careful to allow everyone the opportunity to exist without enforcing negative stereotypes. that being said, o'reilly wouldnt even listen to the guy. he would start to say that we never called nazis christian fascists. before he could really get it out good though, o'reilly would cut him off and say that we did call them christians and there is no difference. o'reilly didnt even try to hear what the guy was saying. just thought it was kind of one sided and hard headed of him to not even give the CAIR guy a chance to state his case. then the next guy on there was an israeli higher up and o'reilly was lobbing him ephus pitches to knock out of the ballpark. it seemed very closed minded and, well, a little bit ignorant. to agree with what somebody has to say or disagree is one thing, but when he cuts off people he doesnt agree with and then ask easy questions to the guy you agree with just seems bull-headed to me.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by peacrevol on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:41:27 AM EST
    I know none of yall watch the O'Reilly factor on Fox News, but I saw last night where he was interviewing a member of CAIR who was opposed to Bush's use of the term Islamic Fascists. The CAIR guy's point was that nobody ever called anybody Christian anything negative. He made sence b/c the title of islamic fascist more or less puts the whole religion of islam under the category, and if not it definately singles out their religion. O'Reilly's point was that they are a stateless enemy and all that they hold in common is that they are islamic. It does, to me, enforce a negative stereotype of islam which might damage the name of the true religion of islam. i personally am a christian, but i think that titles are important and we should be careful to allow everyone the opportunity to exist without enforcing negative stereotypes. that being said, o'reilly wouldnt even listen to the guy. he would start to say that we never called nazis christian fascists. before he could really get it out good though, o'reilly would cut him off and say that we did call them christians and there is no difference. o'reilly didnt even try to hear what the guy was saying. just thought it was kind of one sided and hard headed of him to not even give the CAIR guy a chance to state his case. then the next guy on there was an israeli higher up and o'reilly was lobbing him ephus pitches to knock out of the ballpark. it seemed very closed minded and, well, a little bit ignorant. to agree with what somebody has to say or disagree is one thing, but when he cuts off people he doesnt agree with and then ask easy questions to the guy you agree with just seems bull-headed to me.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by peacrevol on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:42:47 AM EST
    sorry about the multiple post...type key tricked me...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Pete Guither on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:50:16 AM EST
    Drug-Terror Connection Disputed (This was also covered yesterday in Congressional Quarterly.)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:51:13 AM EST
    "Legend also has it that knights who answered the calls of Richard I to join the crusades stopped off at this watering hole for a pint on their way to Jerusalem." Things do seem to drag on, but if you want to lighten up for a minute or two why don't you take Ye olde trip to Jerusalem.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by JSN on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:54:07 AM EST
    One of the criteria for deciding who won a battle is which side holds the battle field and which side withdraws. During the Civil War Lyon (Federal) and Price (Confederate) fought a battle where both sides suffered 10% losses. Lyon was killed in the battle and his subordinates decided to withdraw thus losing the battle becuase Price stayed put. Hezbollah suffered much larger losses than IDF but they stayed put and the IDF withdrew.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Sumner on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:55:20 AM EST
    But Oscar Wilde was imprisoned in the Reading Gaol, for his own good, wasn't he? Czarcasm Recently, Fox News, in one of those rare moments, asked why the marginalized Muslim women would defend having to wear a Burqa, even after "liberation". The answer would appear to go far beyond mere Stockholm Syndrome. Such historic violence creates institutional memory (memes). It is much like how bodies would continue their animation for some time after having been separated from their heads on the French guillotine. Talkleft is a salient for humanity. Freedom requires courage far beyond what a mere ostrich displays. Otherwise, you are just another lemming.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by scribe on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:06:34 PM EST
    Well, it looks like Deadeye's lawyering up, against the Plame v. Cheney, Rove, et als. civil suit. Hired one of Clinton's impeachment defense team, too.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by chupetin on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:22:32 PM EST
    Slado, I see that some of your fellows disagree with you.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Punchy on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:34:19 PM EST
    I saw an Egyptian man in Verizon today buying a cell phone. I called DHS and had him arrested. Can never be too vigilant with these Crazy Brown Guys...terrorists....all trying to buy phones...trying to call each other...all plotting stuff, I'm sure.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:35:14 PM EST
    I know none of yall watch the O'Reilly factor on Fox News
    Shoot..I watch all the time...the unintentional comedy is off the charts! Why don't we just call people hell bent on killing people they've never met, regardless of their regimented superstitions, what they are...nuts.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:43:06 PM EST
    Your medal of freedom is in the mail punchy...way to stay alert! All kidding aside...that's the society we are building for our children...a society of spies and snitches. The very things my grandfathers risked their lives fighting against 60 years ago.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:19:35 PM EST
    Yes TL is running extremely slow for me too. Especially for commenting, the last one took over five minutes to load.
    The workaround that I found is to hit the post button, wait about 15 seconds and then hit the preview button. The preview screen comes up quickly and I can scroll down and see if my post made it (it has every time). Voila, no double posts.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by desertswine on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:22:56 PM EST
    Here's a guy who should get a real medal of freedom... and I don't mean a Bush medal of freedom.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:25:16 PM EST
    Oscar Wilde was imprisoned in large part due to memes that are dearly embraced by a faction without whose support the current Administration (in the throes of it's own Stockholm Syndrome), would be back clearing brush and foundering in the shoals of K-Street mediocrity.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by scribe on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:45:35 PM EST
    Jimmy Carter's given an excellent interview to the German magazine Der Spiegel (translated here), in which he opines (among other things) that the Lieberman results are the sign that America is beginning a process of self-correction away from the Bush policies. He is also as scorching of Bush and fundies as I've ever seen him....

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by jen on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:51:50 PM EST
    desertswine : Amen

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by jen on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:54:08 PM EST
    Wow. Hit 'post' go get coffee do a crossword puzzle go through my mail wash my coffee cup THEN my comment is posted!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:58:09 PM EST
    Speaking of memes, how did we in America go from Wobblies and anarchists as "the far-Left" to Not- Bush and neocon "regime change" as the far-Left? Is it ahistorical ignorance and stupidity, demonize-the-opposition spin; or, most likely, an admixture of both?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:01:06 PM EST
    If anyone finished watching O'Reilly last night you would have heard him say that the muslim guest was a "man of peace", hardly the rhetoric of a man who wasn't listening or cutting off the guest from answering. I guess we hear what we want. What other unifying term should be use its place? I recommend OPEAZiaCs: Opressed Persons of European/American/Zionist Colonialism. Any other ideas on what to call these people who wish to use terror like in Spain, England, U.S., Israel, Bali, Chechnya, China, Thailand, India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt, etc...?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:04:16 PM EST
    JSN - You might stop for a second and understand that Israel never considerd holding on to any part of Lebanon.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:04:38 PM EST
    Interesting article for you lawyer types and those who are interested in tax spending The TL main page opens OK for me but the comments are taking a bit longer these days. Oh well, plenty of multitasks to perform. Classes start next week.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by scribe on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:04:49 PM EST
    I think the whole internets thing is working slowly of late. My modem seems to have picked up some sort of bug while I was away and now it doesn't work worth a darn - can't get streaming audio (never bothered with video on the dial-up), crashes me off the internets and so on all the time. I have to reboot the whole darn machine if I log off the net. (Anyone got any ideas how to fix it?) If you were wondering, what we've been going through is what the world without net neutrality will look like. On a good day. While Stormfront and all the Freeper/Rethug sites open in a trice.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:17:57 PM EST
    scribe - Try turning it off (unplug) for 30 seconds, then back on. This will let it re-synch.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by scribe on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:26:17 PM EST
    PPJ - thanks, but this cropped up after it had been off for 11 days, and power was cut off by yours truly at the surge protector (so, no, it wasn't lightning). It will re-set itself after turning the whole beasty off, but that doesn't change the abysmal opening speed for any web page (like over a minute for Yahoo home) or cure the rest. Think I need a new modem?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:52:25 PM EST
    Righties and lefites, getting together and giving computer advice to each other, it's making me all misty. Seriously, my keyboard is ultra-conservative, almost Victorian, but my CPU is a real Woodstock bong-n-Birks kind of lefty, and I've had great difficulty the last few days trying to get either of them to do a damn thing for me on my favorite MILF and Fantasy Sports sites. These machines have agendas, I tell ya.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:57:34 PM EST
    There is definitely something wrong with the comments. The site went down around 11 am today and was rebooted. The hosting company is checking on the comments issue. Thanks for being patient.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Peaches on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 03:00:02 PM EST
    Heres the transcript of John Dean on Democracy Now today He says about ppj, bb and Slado
    Americans clung to the Nixon presidency, never willing to say that this man had done anything wrong, down to -- it gets to about 23% to this day thinks he did no wrong. He said, "John, that's a very typical pattern in the demographics in the United States of the hardcore authoritarian followers, that their leaders can do -- or their authority figures can do no wrong. They won't question them. They will hang with them forever. They're like lemmings.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 03:03:18 PM EST
    TL. Unecessary or old JavaScripts.Such as running ads in the comments section can wreck havoc on sites.I scrolled up and down the page and didn't see any running adds in the comment section but I do remember seeing them before. Just a suggestion.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by HK on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 03:26:02 PM EST
    Che...did you ask the stunning Repug for a date?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Sumner on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 03:50:49 PM EST
    Watching the California Channel's live coverage of the Senate Select Cmte. on Prison Population Management and Capacity showed George Runner reminding us that the people have spoken about their preference for "truth-in-sentencing", "3-strikes", "10-20-life" sentences and have a new referendum coming up to dispose of sex offenders on the next ballot. Since I watch this stuff closely, I can tell you that it first starts with the "We don't make the laws, we just enforce them" crowd. They first armtwist the pols who then whip up the People into a frenzied hysteria. The pols then posture with, "The people have made their wants clear!" California is poised to bolster its record high prison population through growing the entire system by another $6 billion. Witness Barry Krisberg, Ph.D., 14-year president of the National Council on Crime and Delinquency, seemed to be pleading in vain for even a modicum of sanity in California sentencing policies. Mike Jiminez, of the California Peace Officer and Correctional Officer Association testified that not growing the prison population is a "pipe-dream" and that the best we can hope for is a lesser "rate-of-increase" in the total number of prisoners.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by JSN on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 05:42:53 PM EST
    Sumner The comment about cutting the prison population growth rate is not as far fetched as you appear to think. The Iowa Dept. of Correction gives the projected prison population on 7/1/06 as 9321 and the prison population today 8/15/06 is 8553. So where are the missing 768 prison inmates? A fair number are in jail and some are on parole and others have been moved from prison to residential work release centers which are listed under Community Based Correction not prisons (a bookeeping tactic). The good news is the prison population is smaller than we expected and the bad news is the jail population is larger than we expected. California may have something similar in mind.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 06:27:14 PM EST
    You might stop for a second and understand that Israel never considerd holding on to any part of Lebanon. They expected to be able to drive tanks across the border though, and the first one lasted about ten seconds. This was supposed to be a dry run for the tactics to use against a dug-in opponent (Iran), using weapons, satellite intel and advice supplied by the US. It turned wet in a hurry, and Israel started liking a cease-fire a lot more once their people started taking casualties. If Hezbollah "lost" what did Israel gain?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 06:59:10 PM EST
    Repack - I think they were surprised at the amount and type of weapons that the United Nations had let Iran, through Syria, give them. Then their PM waffled a bit, al Reuters provided the world 100s of faked photos and Hezbollah won the PR battle, which wasn't hard given the judophobia of most of Europe and the MSM. However, they did sieze and control quite a chunk of land before their current crop of politcans stupidly decided to a pause fire. Hope that explains things simple enough for you to understand. Scribe - Are you DSL over copper, or Cable? If copper wire from a telephone company, I doubt if the modem is bad because they usually work or they don't. As for lighting, it could have came in over the telephone (or cable) line, or back fed on the AC over ground if the area has poor grounding. I'd call the provider and complain. The lighting could have gotten them, and I'd try a new modem. I assume that you are connected directly to the modem, and not through a wireless router to the modem. If so, a 50% drop off isn't unusal. Another possibility, depending on what's at the DSLAM point for equipment, if there is bad cable in the outside plant, or inside, the equipment will see the bad cable and reduce speed fast enough to keep working. But, the provider should also be picking up all kinds of error messages. Of course that doesn't mean they'll do anything. ;-) Of yeah.. Remember that everytime you double speed you triple problems... ;-) Dadler - It's called Truth, Justice and the American Way. And it is actually why our system works. Peaches - Nixon has been gone over 30 years and Dean still can't find anything else to talk about..

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 07:14:54 PM EST
    al Reuters provided the world 100s of faked photos
    Proof?? I didn't think so. 1 was altered in a small way that did not change the conclusion.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 07:19:29 PM EST
    Jim, What comment did I make to get Superman's mantra in reply? In other sad news, a great American actor has passed away, at far too young an age. Rest in Peace, Bruno Kirby

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 08:03:17 PM EST
    I'd also like to see some proof of "faked photos" from our resident truthophobe and b.sophile.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:51:28 PM EST
    TL, The site went down around 11 am today and was rebooted. It's those effing CT bloggers again! HK, We had coffee. Not feeling the right vibes. She has two kids and I have two jobs. Already looking elsewhere. BTW, she's moving from Repug to Libertarian so that should make Jimcee happy. Thanks for asking!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 12:01:36 AM EST
    Wow Dadler I didn't see your comment about Bruno Kirby. Really a loss. I thought he was as funny as Williams in "Good Morning Vietnam". How can you make not being funny just hilarious? "And if you dooooooooo..."

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 03:22:38 AM EST
    Ray Close, a retired CIA analyst of Arab affairs has an analysis of the liklihood of an upcoming war with Iran. Its in Juan Cole's blog scroll to the end. Some snippets:
    ' Despite vehement official assertions to the contrary, indications are increasing every day that the Bush Administration has already decided that conventional diplomacy will fail as a way to manage its confrontation with Iran, and that military action against the Teheran regime has therefore already reached the point of final countdown.
    his conclusions:
    This bombastic and posturing style of "diplomacy" is going to lead inescapably to one or the other of the following results: 1. War with Iran (with negative consequences beyond anyone's ability to imagine); or 2. Another humiliating demonstration of impotence. '


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 03:29:43 AM EST
    Billmon with a must read article:
    Strictly from a humanitarian point of view, it's both grotesque and repulsive to have to listen to Ehud Olmert, Sheikh Nasrallah and the Boy King all proclaiming victory in their nasty little war -- even as the bodies are still literally being pulled out of the rubble. It brings to mind Victor Hugo's description of Napoleon as a rooster crowing on top of dung heap, until God grew bored with him. (Except in this case it's pretty clear who the smallest cock is.) This is the kind of simian hooting and chest beating that makes me wish I'd been born into a more respectable species -- like the hyenas or the slime eels or the dung beetles. Still, since it was a political war (much to the genocidal dismay of Right Blogistan) it's inevitable everybody involved would end up spinning like dervishes to make the senseless slaughter of human beings look like "victory." But the fact that Shrub felt compelled to turn himself into one of the spinners -- like one of the candidate touts who work the political press after the New Hampshire primary -- is fairly conclusive evidence of who really won and who lost.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 03:50:59 AM EST
    Scarborough Country debates whether Bush is an idiot.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:50:05 AM EST
    SD quotes:
    Despite vehement official assertions to the contrary, indications are increasing every day that the Bush Administration has already decided that conventional diplomacy will fail
    I hope this guy is right, because diplomacy isn't going to work, and the longer we wait, the more costly the regime change in Iran and Syria will be in lives, money and material.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 08:50:17 AM EST
    PPj hoping for Armegedon undr the neocon delusion that baombing people will eventually cause them to support you. Is that stupid or what. If you dont think the blowback will be horrific you are naive at best. PPJ is right diplomacy will not work for the neocons to achieve their goals because their goal is to control the ME and Iran is the threat to their hegemoy. One effect will be the Shias will in mass turn against US troops in Iraq. Israel couldn't subdue Lebanon and Iran is no where near being ready to having a bomb. Professional estimates of the time till Iran could have a nuke rangre from 5-10 years. The rush to bomb them is strictly a political one and not a strategic one. If they go ahead may god help us all because the consequences will be terrible for the US, Israel, and Britain. It will quickly spiral completely out of control which is what the neocons want. They want all out war and if that means slaughtering millions of Muslims so be it. But American imperialism must continue. This wont be the first time that America has committed genocide in the name of advancing the capitalist state. There comes a point where if this does spiral out of control and millions are killed that future generations will be lumping Bush and Stalin together in case studies of leaders using genocide to advance political aims.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 08:53:13 AM EST
    I hope this guy is right, because diplomacy isn't going to work
    The George W Bush administration failed to enter into negotiations with Iran on its nuclear program in May 2003 because neo-conservatives who advocated destabilization and regime change were able to block any serious diplomatic engagement with Tehran, according to former administration officials.
    ..........................
    "The secret cabal got what it wanted: no negotiations with Tehran," Wilkerson wrote in an e-mail to Inter Press Service (IPS). The Iranian negotiating offer, transmitted to the State Department in early May 2003 by the Swiss ambassador in Tehran, acknowledged that Iran would have to address US concerns about its nuclear program, although it made no specific concession in advance of the talks, according to Flynt Leverett, then the National Security Council's senior director for Middle East Affairs.
    Neo-con cabal blocked 2003 nuclear talks Of course, American diplomacy is where America tells a country to jump and they respond, "How high?" in the world of BB, Poopo-Player-Jim, and the other neo-con 'fellow travellers' who post here.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by roy on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 09:02:06 AM EST
    Jondee, You asked about fake photos; you can read about them here, though it's a bit outdated. If you hit Instapundit or Powerline from time to time, you'll see the story develop. Only two of the pictures are actually faked, btw, and they're probably of the "fake but accurate" ilk. Staging of photos, and publishing scenes orchestrated by Hezbollah, and bigger issues.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by desertswine on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 09:35:19 AM EST
    I hope this guy is right, because diplomacy isn't going to work...
    I have yet to see any evidence of diplomacy.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by desertswine on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 09:48:11 AM EST
    Alfredo Stroessner dead. Send us a postcard from Hell, Fredo.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by JSN on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 10:58:13 AM EST
    Were more Lebanese civilians killed and wounded than Hezbollah fighters? Yes. Were more Israeli civilians killed or wounded than IDF soldiers? Yes. It is likely that more Israeli and Lebanese civilians will be killed or wounded if the ceasefire is violated? Yes. My understanding was that the IDF plan was to wipe out Hezbollah. I have no idea how long they planned on staying in Lebanon. The last time they were there they stayed a long time. Hezbollah was not wiped out but they are searching the rubble for dead bodies. The Israelis who live in the north are prepared to go to their bomb shelters at a moments notice and it does not appear the civilians on either side think they won.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Sumner on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 11:35:48 AM EST
    soccerdad referred to the Scarborough Country debates on whether Bush is an idiot. That segment particularly focused on the president's trouble with the English language. Yet even if one had a perfect command of English, the language does not seem to lend itself capable of representing the horrors of the modern social psychopathy. George Orwell once tried in his novel 1984. Nazi Germany provided words like schadenfreude that come close. The police state makes much more sense when viewed in that light. So when Democracy Now! examines attempts to shield the administration from the redounding of War Crimes, the pretexts ring specious, shallow and hollow. A pragmatic reason might be that to remind the administration of what may be in store - even as they still hold power - has not perhaps contemplated the fact the president's finger is still on the "button". People do strange things under such levels of fear.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 01:03:53 PM EST
    The more costly regime change will be in Iran and Syria In light of everything that's already occurred, to cling desperatly to this fantasy becomes even more glaringly psychotic. Well, at least this time, when the inevitable evacuation and airlift occurs Jim wont have to be bothered by the thought that he could've been there.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 01:14:10 PM EST
    The homocidal Islamophobia is showing again. Of course, it's only genuine "hate" when it's directed against Israel. Lower life forms and the mongrel races dont count.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 01:59:07 PM EST
    jondee...some people need viagra...some people need fantasies of dropping nukes on the mongrel races. Then there are those that need both. They are best looked upon with pity...and otherwise ignored.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 02:14:24 PM EST
    peacrevol.... It does, to me, enforce a negative stereotype of islam which might damage the name of the true religion of islam. LOL... this is good! So let me get this straight.. If GW or Bill O'Reilly sez somthing bad about Islam.... (like calling them what they are) ..it might give them a bad name???? And, the fact that all the terrorists activities in the world are caused by them... the fact that they blow themselves up (taking as many civilians with them as possible... the fact that they have committed terrorist acts in just about every major civilized country has NOTHING to do with the fact that they have a bad name!!!!! Kdog... Why don't we just call people hell bent on killing people they've never met, regardless of their regimented superstitions, what they are...nuts. They do that all the time.... but the fact they are ALL Islamic 'nuts' needs to get reported too! Peaches... They will hang with them forever. They're like lemmings As I have said before, I'm no big Bush fan.... I just don't blame him for things he didn't do! I didn't like Clinton either, but as long as he was the prez...I supported him! Repack.... If Hezbollah "lost" what did Israel gain? A buffer zone that will make it harder for Hezbollah to fire rockets at them. Other than that...not much.. I predict Hezbollah will re-arm and start shooting at Isreal again in a few months (if not weeks)... UN resolutions be damned! They didn't listen to the last bunch, why should they now! They'll get a pass.... (after all, we don't want to piss them off) Soccerdad... Proof?? I didn't think so. 1 was altered in a small way that did not change the conclusion. LOL..you are in your own little world aren't you? Reuters agreed many of them were fake and pulled all of that photographers (100s) off they're data base.So altering is ok with you? Try reading something besides left wing blogs! You've been given a link on the pics..... and your response is? This is the kind of simian hooting and chest beating that makes me wish I'd been born into a more respectable species But it's ok when Hezbollah claims victory? You're buying that huh? They're not doing any simian hooting? PPJ is right diplomacy will not work for the neocons Diplomacy? You mean like UN sanctions? Talking sense/reasoning with them? Yes, that has worked real well in the past hasn't it? They'll listen to the UN this time... harharhar!!! Israel couldn't subdue Lebanon Why is that? Could it be world opinion? It certainly isn't because they didn't have the power to? If they go ahead may god help us all because the consequences will be terrible for the US, Israel, and Britain. So what's your plan...? Wait till they get one & use it? Then we should subdue them? Please, I'd really like to know your plan. (but I'm always ready for the snide/nasty remark I know I'll get back.)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by dutchfox on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 02:18:29 PM EST
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 02:24:55 PM EST
    Could it be world opinion? It certainly isn't because they didn't have the power to?
    Since when has Israel listened to world opinion? They killed several hundred civilians and they blew up the civilian infrastructure. They left Hezbollah intact only because they they were taking too many casualties on the ground. They are waiting on the DU bunker busters that your tax bucks will buy for them to finish the job.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 02:27:58 PM EST
    BB dumps another load from the world of right wing blogs. This one stinks as usual. Its a waste of time and bandwidth.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by desertswine on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 03:12:03 PM EST
    Jimmy Breslin:
    We cannot list the entire number of dead in Iraq, for 2,583 Americans have been lost so far. And counting every day.
    There also have been 19,270 wounded, with such injuries as legs blown off, young men with shattered backs being placed in wheelchairs for the rest of their lives, genitals lost, brains numbed by flying ball bearings, faces left in half by flames.
    The television and newspaper coverage of this has been weak, lazy, fearful. What there is of it, you watch and read with clenched teeth.
    Once, on HBO, they showed a young soldier on the table, and the whine of a saw sounded as it went through the bone of his leg being amputated. This should be on day and night.
    What the hell happened to the news coverage in Iraq. Hello? George?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 03:29:52 PM EST
    BB
    Diplomacy? You mean like UN sanctions? Talking sense/reasoning with them? Yes, that has worked real well in the past hasn't it? They'll listen to the UN this time... harharhar!!!
    Sanctions have a decent record. They were certainly successful in stopping Iraq's efforts to develop WMDs.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 04:22:42 PM EST
    soccerdad referred to the Scarborough Country debates on whether Bush is an idiot. What's to debate?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Lww on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 04:23:18 PM EST
    Jimmy Breslin, a name from the past... He's right you know. Jimmy was a big Bernard Goetz critic until he himself got rolled and beaten up by the same ilk that went after Goetz. Jimmy forgot his gun. He changed his tune.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:04:13 PM EST
    et al - Let me repeat. Diplomacy won't work, and hasn't worked. Ask the Europeans who have been engaged in it for years with Iran. And since the US is so evileeee and so badddd, why do you even want us involved?? Oh, I know. To surrender. Hey, why didn't you just say so.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by soccerdad on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:18:20 PM EST
    et al - Let me repeat. Diplomacy won't work, and hasn't worked.
    There has been no diplomacy for 6 years.
    And since the US is so evileeee and so badddd, why do you even want us involved?? Oh, I know. To surrender.
    you should really try and spend more than 6 sec writing your posts. Stringing together a couple of strawmen is ..... well I huess its all you got. Carry on comrade.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:26:26 PM EST
    And since the US is so evileeee and so badddd
    once agin, provide links to where any regular commenter has said that. Somehow you always accuse others on this site of treason but can never come up with a link. Gee, one would wonder if you are lying ... again.
    Diplomacy won't work, and hasn't worked.
    if it hadn't israel wouldn't exist.
    Ask the Europeans who have been engaged in it for years with Iran.
    Well I went and asked them and they said diplomacy works for them, but bush refuses to engage in diplomacy so iran feels it needs to protect itself from nuclear powers that have called them 'axis of evil', interferes with their internal gov't with $$ and arms and has vowed their destruction.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 08:32:00 PM EST
    I'd say exhibiting an obvious lust for even more bloodshed ( to the tune a maybe a hundred thousand more dead and maimed) and a obvious complete disconnect concerning the colossal expenditures and likely cataclysmic fallout, qualifies as, if not evilll and baaad (O'Reilly imitation? What a mentor); at the very least psychotic, sadistic and sociopathic.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 08:35:43 PM EST
    Jim's baaaa is left over from when they asked him to actually fight,

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 06:14:59 AM EST
    Comment test.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 09:20:22 AM EST
    I think I made the comment to Roger that Israel could rebuild Lebanon as restitution and earnoing some good will back among the Lebanese people. Hezbollah has beat them to it however. The US is not doing any better at getting much needed aide to Southern Lebanon.
    Promises, even the best-intentioned, can't compete with the visible aid Hezbollah is already delivering, in some cases house to house. Washington's pledges must be quickly translated into tangible on-the-ground help or Hezbollah will clinch the battle for Lebanese hearts and minds even before the peacekeepers arrive.
    There has been a lot of speculation on what Israel' objective for the assault in Lebanon actually were. Michael Ventura offers a plausible economic explanation.
    Why flatten Lebanon's infrastructure? In war as in politics, follow the money. Lebanon's president, Emile Lahoud, says it's "because Lebanon is a very big competitor of Israel, from the tourist point of view and with anything - regional trade, finance. So the Israelis don't want Lebanon to prosper" (The New Yorker, Aug. 4, p.10). Ramzi El Hafez, publisher of Lebanon Opportunities magazine: "Lebanon had begun attracting long-term investment. Lebanese banks were lending both at home and throughout the Middle East. The Beirut Stock Exchange began 2006 with $4.91 billion in capitalization, coming off a record 2005, when both volume and value of trading tripled" (USA Today, Aug. 8, p.7). The same article noted that "Abbas Safieddine, a partner in PlastiMed, maker of disposable medical supplies, says he wants to know why Israelis targeted PlastiMed's factory near the coastal city of Tyre. The plant ... was demolished in an air strike two weeks ago." Also hit, a Pepsi bottling franchise. Et cetera. The United States is in an increasingly shaky position financially, with many predicting a recession next year (The Economist, Aug. 5, p.14); this means Israel's financial situation is also shaky, dependent as it is upon the U.S. A major economic rival on its border, competing for capital and trade, could hurt Israel's economy at a time when the U.S. economy is less reliable as a supplement. Now it will take Lebanon years to rebuild; Israel no longer has a local economic rival.