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Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire

Late this afternoon, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert endorsed a cease fire proposal. The Israeli cabinet will vote on it Sunday.

The agreement calls for the deployment of 30,000 Lebanese and U.N. troops along the Israel-Lebanon border. It falls short of some of Israel's demands, including a strong mandate for the U.N. forces to take on Hezbollah guerrillas.

Lebanon has not officially responded, but word is they view it favorably.

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    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#1)
    by chew2 on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 04:49:05 PM EST
    The Israelis seem to want to kill a few more civilians before the ceasefire. They bomb a UN escorted convoy. Probably wanted to kill a few more UN soldiers before they have to cease their efforts at "self defense". IAF drone strikes refugee convoy; 15 reported dead or wounded
    An Israel Air Force drone fired missiles into a convoy of refugees fleeing attacks in the southern town of Marjayoun on Friday afternoon, killing and wounding as many as 15 people, witnesses and security officials said. The convoy, consisting of more than 100 civilian vehicles and those carrying a detachment of 350 Lebanese soldiers and police from the area around Marjayoun, was hit near Chtaura on the west side of the Bekaa Valley. Two armored UN peacekeeping vehicles had led the convoy out of Marjayoun on Friday afternoon,
    The refugees and Lebanese soldiers were from a Christian village and were supposedly under a safe conduct agreement.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#2)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 05:33:09 PM EST
    chew2 - Given that the UN watched Hezbolla rearm and dig in for the past 10 years, never saying anything, it just might be that Israel has little use for them.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 05:49:31 PM EST
    This sounds like a pretty good deal to me. The Lebanese army has been given an excuse to take charge of the area, and it's getting some U.N. help. Of course, the Devil is in the details. The Devil is always in the details. I suppose it wouldn't include $5 billion to help them rebuild their country?

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#4)
    by DonS on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 06:49:49 PM EST
    So, the fact that the Israel has little use for the the UN justifies killing civilians? Thinking about it, Jim, you probably didn't mean to so trivialize those deaths, certainly not to find a justifiable connection. I thought not.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimcee on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 06:59:12 PM EST
    Olmert is a fool and a politician who has never had to deal with those whose aim is to destroy Israel. If he excepts anything short of the desturction of Hezbollah then he will become the ex-prime minister of Israel. When someone says they are your mortal enemy it is something to take seriously. The UN in its opinion is obviously anti-Israel. If Olmert tries to parley with Israel's security he will be sent to the knackers yard of stupid politicians. Prediction? Netanyatu becomes Israel's new PM and Lebanon bows to Israel's wrath. Iran continues with its obsession to control the ME and the new Cold War continues. The Left will continue to try to appease the Mullahs of Iran and will eventually become the modern version of Neville Chamberlain. History will be unkind to those who embraced the Mullahs. Western prevarication will cause even more deaths than straight-forward confrontation would. Moral wimpiness is a sad fact for the Left today. It appears to be more acceptable to some to allow mass murder than it is to condemn it in no uncertain terms. 1938 is a very relevent year and those that refuse to learn from the the past....

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 07:02:43 PM EST
    From Glen Greenwald
    When this all started, neoconservatives were in full bloodthirsty glory, salivating over the complete obliteration of Hezbollah and much of Southern Lebanon, as the start of the "great opportunity" -- "our war" -- in which we would do the same to Syria and Iran. Instead, they got a joint U.S.-French U.N. resolution engineering a cease-fire dependent upon French troops protecting Israel from the Hezbollah militia, and even Israeli hawks lamenting the humiliation suffered at the hands of Hezbollah (assuming Hezbollah, which clearly has the strongest hand here, agrees to all of this). Watching Fox News right now discussing this is like being at a wake. Paul at Powerline is calling for the downfall of the Bush administration. The neoconservative dream for broader war, at least for the moment, has collapsed on its shattered foundations. Nobody should consider a Hezbollah victory to be anything remotely a cause for celebration; that should go without saying. But the plan the neoconservatives harbor - and thought they were finally able to execute - is as dangerous a threat as anything else in the world, and anything which puts a stop to it, and which drives a wedge between them and their enablers in the Bush administration, is something which, independent of all else, is a constructive development.
    LINK

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#7)
    by DonS on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 07:05:25 PM EST
    Jimcee, this is not a zero sum. It can be both; Olmert can be a loser as a prime minister; and Israel needs to sensibly conclude a cease fire.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 07:09:18 PM EST
    From think progress
    U.N. deal reached on Mideast crisis...... UPDATE: Israel launches ground offensive.... ".... after expressing dissatisfaction over an emerging cease-fire deal, government officials said." UPDATE II: The U.N. Human Rights Council on Friday condemned Israel for "massive bombardment of Lebanese civilian populations" and "systematic" human rights violations, and decided to send a commission to investigate. The resolution contained no mention of Hezbollah.  2:19 pm | Comment (94)
    :And this
    U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan is expected to announce in the coming days a precise time when hostilities are supposed to stop. It could be more than a day at the earliest before the shooting is supposed to end..... That delay is likely to lead to a dangerous last-minute escalation that could jeopardize the tenuous cease-fire agreement.
    We'll see about whether or not the "delay" (a new ground offensive} impacts the deal. And what do you suppose Israel is going to do with all the new cluster bombs they just recently rush ordered from us? hmmmm..... I am skeptical that this new agreement will ever see the light of day.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 07:17:40 PM EST
    DonS - Death is never trivial. Why would you think it is? But if you do, I would guess we have a ton of widows in Israel, the NYC area and all around the country who can talk to you about it. Enjoy the conversation.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#10)
    by soccerdad on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 07:22:51 PM EST
    DonS - Death is never trivial. Why would you think it is? But if you do, I would guess we have a ton of widows in Israel, the NYC area and all around the country who can talk to you about it. Enjoy the conversation.
    Why dont you talk to the relatives of the dead in Lebanon, Iraq, and Gaza or dont those brown skined people count. There were more civilians killed in Gaza last week that have been killed in Israel all this year.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 07:24:39 PM EST
    Steve Clemons has an article about how the French out manuevered the Americans and Israelis

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#12)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 07:27:51 PM EST
    He meant to say it's almost never trivial. Towelheads and their offspring (the untermenschen breed like rats), dont count.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#13)
    by Patrick on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 07:28:39 PM EST
    Glen Greenwald....Where have I heard that name recently? Oh yeah, here

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sailor on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 07:30:53 PM EST
    Given that the UN watched Hezbolla rearm and dig in for the past 10 years
    And the US sold illegal weapons to israel the whole time.
    Death is never trivial. Why would you think it is?
    Because he reads your posts advocating death to civilians and torture to muslims? Just guessing.
    I would guess we have a ton of widows in Israel
    Gee, I'm not sure how many of the 30 israeli civilians killed had wives, but I don't think it counts as a ton ... 900 Lebanese civilians count as a ton, but since israel/we killed their wives and children I'm not sure if there is enough left of them to make a 'ton.'

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#15)
    by soccerdad on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 07:54:37 PM EST
    Patrick - cant argue the facts so try a "swift boating" I see

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 08:32:11 PM EST
    You're a champ, soccerdad. The quote from Glen Greenwald was a salve to my soul. And yes -- the Frenchies did kick our ass. Israel's too. Now Israel just needs to choke up the $5 billion in reparations, with maybe a couple of billion more for punitive damages. There's nothing in this deal they couldn't have gotten had they and their vomitous allies in this effin' administration actually engaged in decent Middle Eastern foreign policy the past five years. Of course, if Kerry hadn't run like a coward and fought the theft of the 2004 election...

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#17)
    by Andreas on Fri Aug 11, 2006 at 11:16:45 PM EST
    That war criminal has not stopped the war and the Zionist terror state is still murdering refugees.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#19)
    by Patrick on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 12:33:58 AM EST
    Patrick - cant argue the facts so try a "swift boating" I see
    Kinda calls his "facts" into question no?

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 04:48:46 AM EST
    Kinda calls his "facts" into question no?
    character assassination by those who know nothing does not. For all I know that right winger just made it up Again you dont dispute the assertions with other observations/facts.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#21)
    by roger on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 05:39:18 AM EST
    Hezbollah has killed 248 US marines. They have bombed, kidnapped, and killed Americans and Israelis. Hezbollah's survival after this attack on Israel makes them the winners this time. Expect their influence to increase in Lebanon, leading to future conflict and loss of life. The dead Lebanese civilians they leave in their wake shows that they dont care about the local population. Israel left Lebanon years ago, and everything has been fine since then, hasen't it? Yet anyone who questions the anti-Israel line year is labeled a racist by those who refer to Israel as "the Zionist terror state". The hatred exhibited on this site is disturbing. Partly because you wholeheartedly support those who would kill you with no hesitation. The height of stupidity

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#22)
    by DonS on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 06:14:17 AM EST
    Roger, I take what you say. "Zionist terror state" used by one poster is harsh. That, however, does not correspond to a reason why I/we/anyone should not point out the disproportionate and bloody behavior of the Israelis. What would you call it when civilians are targeted? I know Israel sanctimoniously denies this, but their targeting appears cavalier at best. There is plety of evidence of civilian deaths. There is massive evidence of disproportionality. That you attibute the civilian deaths as hizbullah's responsibility clearly indicates your take on the conflict. To me, it looks like Israel escalated far beyond what was necessary, in ways that indicate that Olmert made terrible judgments and miscalculations. I think your characterization of "wholehearted support" of hizbullah is a distortion, perhaps emotional, since I for one find more than enough blame to go around -- on the micro and macro scale. The fact that Israel's criminal conduct of the war is not so labelled in American media surely doesn't mean that we shouldn't notice it?

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#23)
    by roger on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 06:23:56 AM EST
    DonS, Your posts are pretty even handed from what I have seen. Many here just hate Jews (LWW is #1 offender), others act like Hezbollah is some benign organization and it is all Israel's fault. Both sides in this conflict have blood on their hands, but, as always, Hezbollah starts a fight and then complains when Israel fights back. Do they both fight dirty? Of course. The fact remains though, that without Hezbollah's attack (unprovoked) many Lebanese civilians would still be alive.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#24)
    by DonS on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 06:27:27 AM EST
    ( . . . amend my last paragraph for clarity.) The fact that Israel's criminal conduct of the war is not so labelled in American media surely doesn't mean that we shouldn't notice it? Hizbullah's criminal conduct of firing rockets into civilian areas is well noted

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#25)
    by DonS on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 06:42:40 AM EST
    Roger, we may know in time what "caused" the explosion. For now, the cross border raid has been settled upon in the Western media as the causative event. Hizbullah showed a degree of sophistocation and success that shocked and humiliated the Israelis. And then there are the ongoing cross border, tit-for-tat events that have gone on continually. It is also clear that Israel pulled the trigger on a plan they had on the shelf for quite a while. And we can't forget that shrub playing Nero egged on the escalation of this proxy fight. Hasn't worked out too well for the "white hats". I await more information, which we may never get, on the strategic coordination between the US and Israel. This stuff is buried in secrecy and may not start to emerge until some of the actors start pointing fingers, and that skews the information.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 07:37:06 AM EST
    I await more information, which we may never get, on the strategic coordination between the US and Israel. This stuff is buried in secrecy and may not start to emerge until some of the actors start pointing fingers, and that skews the information.
    Ah, but when thieves fall out honest men come into their own. Usually when that happens you can be quite sure both sides are spilling serious beans on each other, beans that can easily be checked alongside known information. In any event that won't happen here. It's been clear to me for years that the government of Israel's got the Bush family blackmailed.
    Israel left Lebanon years ago, and everything has been fine since then, hasen't it? Yet anyone who questions the anti-Israel line year is labeled a racist by those who refer to Israel as "the Zionist terror state".
    I think it's time to talk about how fascist Jews hate Christians. I believe Abramoff spoke about this contempt quite eloquently in his emails. I wish our Christian fascists would pull their heads out their asses before they break this country. The neocon company they've been keeping stinks to high heaven.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 07:40:14 AM EST
    Sailor writes:
    Because he reads your posts advocating death to civilians and torture to muslims? Just guessing
    Let's see a link sailor. Oh. You can't? et al - Well fancy that boys and girls, sailor is making stuff up.... again. You know, he really likes to do that. I don't know why because I always catch him and show the world how he operates. Sailor writes:
    And the US sold illegal weapons to israel the whole time
    And how many of these weapons were used against Lebanon and Hezbollah PRIOR TO HEZBOLLAH CROSSING THE BORDER AND KILLING 8 AND KIDNAPPING 2 ISRAELI SOLDIERS???? And the answer is........ None. And how many of these weapons sales violated a UN resolution? And the answer us....... None. SD - I thought I would let Hezbollah, who started this war and who is responsible for all the deaths, discuss the deaths of civilians in Lebanon. Roger - DonS wrote:
    Roger, we may know in time what "caused" the explosion. For now, the cross border raid
    Uh, like to rethink that "even handed" comment? He's so even handed he can't see that a cross border attack that killed 8 and kidnapped 2 is an act of war.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#28)
    by roger on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 07:50:48 AM EST
    Jim, "Causes" is a term that can be used many ways. The "proximate" cause of this war is the raid. The cause of the major escalation of that war is rocket attacks. Shifting the time frame, one could say that the "cause" of this war is the existance of Israel. You took the negative conotations of DonS' statement. I read it differently. I would think it premature to conclude that Don is racist, though there are others here who appear to be. Some speak in racist code (hint- be wary when anyone talks about Jews and water. This accusation against jews goes back to the middle ages). Some just outright state their racism. Some make no sense. Facist Christians, Jews and Muslims? Do they all believe in a one party system, extreme loyalty to the state, and other facist ideology? Even facists are not inherently racist. Mussolini never cared about jews. He never really cooperated with Hitler's "solution" at all. The term is overused greatly. I would consider Bush as having fascist leanings, but I dont think that he is an active racist. Passive, maybe.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 08:10:20 AM EST
    Roger has moderated his words but still seeks to label those who strongly object to Israeli's tactics as racist. Ever the victim. He seeks to be fair handed but doesn't talk about Israeli incursions in to Lebanon as well as the assassination carried out in March in Lebanon and lets all forget about the killing of civilians in Gaza. Your tactics remain clear. Israel doesn nothing wrong. And PPJ's "They started it" is about the middle school level of discussion we've come to expect from him.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#30)
    by DonS on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 08:25:40 AM EST
    Just for the record (every couple of years); my mother's family was burned in the Nazi ovens. Therefore, technically, Roger, Jim, that makes me either a "self-hating Jew", or a "traitor", depending on your preference. Jim says Roger - DonS wrote:
    Roger, we may know in time what "caused" the explosion. For now, the cross border raid Uh, like to rethink that "even handed" comment? He's so even handed he can't see that a cross border attack that killed 8 and kidnapped 2 is an act of war.
    Now I could be catty and say, if its and act of war, than the response of bombing in violation of the Geneva conventions is a crime under international law. But, instead I'll note that only the truly myopic and agenda-driven choose to isolate "acts" to suit their agenda, in this case to "prove" I am not "even handed". Careful readers of events in the mideast recognize cycles of violent insanity on both sides,with mutilple causes. Anyone who sees a "zero sum" pattern has a hard wired agenda, IMHO. By the way Jim, I'll not be holding my breath for your seal of approval on the "racist" question since your syntax does seem to indciate you have a wee issue finding equivalance with brown people, as has been noted upthread. Whether that's a fair assessment or only your attempt to be provacative I can't say. But you sure seem to take my inventory confidently.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 08:33:35 AM EST
    SD - You don't need to be associated with MIT to be able to say the obvious..... Roger writes:
    I would think it premature to conclude that Don is racist, though there are others here who appear to be.
    I don't understand your comment, I never even approached calling him a racist. What I said was:
    Uh, like to rethink that "even handed" comment? He's so even handed he can't see that a cross border attack that killed 8 and kidnapped 2 is an act of war.
    Does he hate Israel as a country? Looks that way to me, but I think people can hate a country and not be racist. That's why I like "jubophobia" because it separates the two.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#32)
    by soccerdad on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 09:18:45 AM EST
    ppj says
    that killed 8 and kidnapped 2 is an act of war.
    That can only imply that Israeli extrajudiucal assassinations in Lebanon and gaza are acts of war.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 09:46:53 AM EST
    Roger-you sound just like the chimp and his black and white thinking when he says 'you're either with us or against us'. Now I don't want your head to explode in a fit of cognitive dissonance, again, but next time you accuse 'many' commenters here of being anti-semitic because they are horrified about the brutal inhumane execution of civilians by Israel aka war crimes, just think of your dear leader and his inability to understand anything more complex than lockstep black and white. If you can do that, you will be able to hear yourself as the rest of us do, that is excluding the wingnunts. BTW-You must not have noticed but the commenters you label as anti-semitic have also expressed horror at hizbulla's civilian attacks aka war crimes. Most, if not all here, except you and the wingnuts, have a non-exclusionary sense of humanity and are horrified when war crimes are committed, regardless of who is the perpetrator.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#34)
    by Sailor on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 10:06:33 AM EST
    And how many of these weapons sales violated a UN resolution? And the answer us....... None.
    wrong as usual
    the United States maintained a moratorium in the 1980s on selling cluster munitions to Israel, after it learned civilians in Lebanon had been killed with the weapons during the 1982 Israeli invasion.
    cluster bombs used in civilian areas are war crimes. selling them to the party that you know will use them in that manner is also a war crime. that's why the US suspended sales for so long.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#35)
    by Sailor on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 10:30:26 AM EST
    Let's see a link sailor. Oh. You can't?
    if nothing else jimmy, you should be held to the same standards you hold others. Remember writing this?
    by not condemning in strong and public terms actions, such horrible actions as this, the Left has nothing remaining to haggle with.
    Since you haven't condemned israel for killing 900 lebanese civilians you must endorse it. Since you haven't comdemned the torture at gitmo you must endorse it. from the Detainee Blinded at Guantanamo post
    Posted by PPJ (aka Jim) February 18, 2005 06:12 PM The objective is to kill'em, not convict them.
    And that's all I have time for now, wind's up and time to head out.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 10:33:38 AM EST
    That's why I like "jubophobia" because it separates the two.
    The word does nothing of the sort. It purposely confuses the issue in order to commandeer any discussion to your agenda. Your continual instance that the non-word means what just what you want it to mean is typical of your utter dishonesty. If you had any interest in being clear you would use the common word anti-zionist instead of a twisted neologism invented by a political activist hack for the sole purpose of provocation.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 10:41:44 AM EST
    deleted Then there's jimcee:
    It appears to be more acceptable to some to allow mass murder than it is to condemn it in no uncertain terms.
    Still waiting for your condemnation of those that killed about 900 Lebanese civilians...and counting.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#37)
    by roy on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 10:47:19 AM EST
    Jim, Perhaps you'd be so kind as to firmly define "Judophobia" so we all understand the wisdom you impart by its use?

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#38)
    by soccerdad on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 10:51:36 AM EST
    I said
    And PPJ's "They started it" is about the middle school level of discussion we've come to expect from him.
    PPJ responds
    SD - You don't need to be associated with MIT to be able to say the obvious.....
    Well he got me there!

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 11:00:11 AM EST
    roy-
    Jim, Perhaps you'd be so kind as to firmly define "Judophobia" so we all understand the wisdom you impart by its use?
    Just what he was hoping you would ask. The fact that the question has to be repeatedly asked belies ppj's intention. His stock answer has been 'go read Hitchen's article' in other words, 'sucessful hijack #6,395.'

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#40)
    by roger on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 11:45:49 AM EST
    Squeaky, I'll try to keep my head from exploding at your gross misinterpretation of what I said. First off, I actively worked for Kerry in the last election. If you have ever read a comment by me about W, you would realize that it is pretty foolish to accuse me of being a wingnut, or to make your "dear leader" crack. Secondly, I was expressing the view that DonS was NOT making any kind of racist statement, but that there are people who view this issue through the race angle. You yourself accuse Jim of this on a regular basis. I also pointed out that DonS' comment, though it sounded good, could be viewed several different ways. I guess that means "black and white" to you. If you think that NO ONE is a racist here, then you are blind. Just read some of LWW's comments in the various threads (assuming that they havent been deleted. And BTW- No, those commenters have never expressed "horror" at anything that Hezbollah has ever done. Your reading comprehension skills could use some improvement

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#41)
    by Lww on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 12:11:56 PM EST
    Roger, thanks for all the recognition. I guess that means I got to you. The worst thing that can happen in here is for someone to say something that gives you pause and makes you question your beliefs. It can piss you off. Glad to oblige you Roger.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#42)
    by Lww on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 12:22:01 PM EST
    Roger, everytime I critisize Israel I do it from the standpoint that Israel or any other "ally" shouldn't have the level of control Israel exerts on MY government. Your Government. Bush waits a full month to speak to the Israeli leadership? Anyone believe that joke of a whopper? Then again which is worse the truth or the lie?

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 12:26:46 PM EST
    Roger- you said:
    Many here just hate Jews
    I said:
    you sound just like the chimp and his black and white thinking when he says 'you're either with us or against us'.
    I know that in most matters except for Israel you are horrified by Bush and his statement: 'you're either with us or against us' That is exactly why I suggested my little thought experiment above. I was hoping that by encouraging empathy the two confilcting parts of your brain would reconnect and you could see how absurd your position is regarding those critical of Israel. My attempt has obviously failed, because once again, your head exploded. Sorry that was not my intention.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 12:52:02 PM EST
    Report: Israel to end war 7AM Monday. "Israel, meanwhile, flew hundreds of commandos into southern Lebanon on Saturday, tripling its troop strength to 30,000 and sending some army units as far as the Litani River even as both sides indicated they would accept a U.N. cease-fire plan to stop the heavy fighting," the AP reports.
    How can anyone expect a cease fire when one side is acting with such blatent bad faith?

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 12:53:24 PM EST
    The above report is from Think Progress

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 01:10:24 PM EST
    Et al - Sailor has made another error, and, as usual, is trying to change the subject and time frame on 8/11 at 8:30 PM Sailor wrote:
    (This is from me from an earlier comment) Given that the UN watched Hezbollah rearm and dig in for the past 10 years (This is from Sailor.) And the US sold illegal weapons to israel the whole time.
    Now note the time frame. The past 10 years would be while 1559 was supposedly keeping Israel safe and the terrorist group Hezbollah from rearming. Now note that Sailor claims "the whole time" which would be past 10 years I refer to. Now on 8/12 at 8:40AM I wrote:
    And how many of these weapons were used against Lebanon and Hezbollah PRIOR TO HEZBOLLAH CROSSING THE BORDER AND KILLING 8 AND KIDNAPPING 2 ISRAELI SOLDIERS???? And the answer is........ None. And how many of these weapons sales violated a UN resolution? And the answer us....... None.
    Now did Sailor give up? No, he changed the time frame writing at 11:06AM:
    the United States maintained a moratorium in the 1980s on selling cluster munitions to Israel, after it learned civilians in Lebanon had been killed with the weapons during the 1982 Israeli invasion.
    Now the linked article details weapons being sent to Israel now. And the '80's were a long time before resolution 1559..Of course, that wasn't the point. My point was that no weapons shipped by the US had been used against Hezbollah prior to start of the current war. That's an obvious attempt to confuse, but exactly what I have come to expect from Sailor. Now he does it again at 8:30AM this morning when he wrote:
    Because he reads your posts advocating death to civilians and torture to muslims? Just guessing.
    When I protest, he provides the following quote, with no link. Have you ever noted that when people quote with no links they are typically using something our of context anyway, here's what he quoted:
    Posted by PPJ (aka Jim) February 18, 2005 06:12 PM The objective is to kill'em, not convict them.
    Now this is the complete comment:
    Posted by PPJ (aka Jim) February 18, 2005 06:12 PM Osama - The objective is to kill'em, not convict them. The problem is, we tried a CJ system approach for about 25 years. It didn't work. The terrorists became bolder, and bolder and bolder. 9/11 was the result.
    Now. Who was I referring to, and what had he said.
    Posted by Osama_Been_Forgotten February 18, 2005 01:04 PM If the guy WAS a terrorist, then we should gather the evidence (like the video), put him up in front of a jury, find him guilty (if the evidence merits it - sounds like it does if the account of the Spanish video is to be believed) and punish him at the end of a rope. .......Yet after 9/11, we "took off the gloves", and not only have we utterly failed to capture Osama bin Laden, we have also utterly failed to convict ONE single damn terrorist, even without "our hands tied behind out bracks by due process".
    Now, did I say they should be tortured? No. Are we speaking of civilians? No. What have I said....? If he was a terrorist we want tokill'em. And I stand by that. BTW - I also wrote this:
    Posted by PPJ (aka Jim) February 18, 2005 07:42 AM Dearest No Name - No, the Marines don't kill their own recruits, dodo. Walter - Omar is not a US citizen and has not been picked up for robbing a QuickiMart. As before, investigate, etc., and go after the guards if you have proof.
    So I am referring to terrorists and saying investigate torture claims. Some what different than what Sailor claims, eh? Just please remember that when he attacks me again. Here's Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 01:57:41 PM EST
    'you're either with us or against us'
    Squeaky - That about says it. There is postively absolutely no middle ground with these terrorists. None. Nada. Like Zero. Nuttin. That you haven't caught on demonstrates a lot to any person with an ounce of logical thinking ability. But enjoy the ride. May us social Democrats and Repubs can keep you safe.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 02:05:51 PM EST
    DonS - "Wee issue?" That's just Ernie flapping his gums, which now has been deleted, but, like Hezbollah, he has done his harm and sneaks off into the night. A Coward's Way. I invite you to show some proof of Ernies claim. In fact, I urge you to try. As for Israel's response? It was justified. You may not understand this, but when a bully hits you, the best lesson he can get is to have the snot beat out of him.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 02:06:17 PM EST
    PPJ, nice job of cutting pasting ignoring and changing context. We know 1. you disapprove of torture only no Iraqi has been tortured according to you. 2. you are a racist your discussions about Islam and immigration have proven that. 3 you are a big fan of genocide and have no use for human life except your own. You are a raving nationalist on your way to becoming a certified fascist. Your continued use of social democratic at this point has become completely pathetic since you have proven yourself to have no social conscience, just some platitudes that you never back up.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#50)
    by DonS on Sat Aug 12, 2006 at 04:10:44 PM EST
    PPJ, fine I'm glad you don't want to be see as a racist. That's a start. I'm afraid, once again, Planet Jim sees things upside down. To characterize Israel as the victim of a "bully", meting out a "best lesson" is straight out of the neocon playbook. Sorry, you can pass that propaganda off to some, but not here.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 13, 2006 at 12:08:42 PM EST
    SD - Can you provide some links? Or do you just insult and smear with no proof? The answer is the latter because you can provide no proof. DonS - Actually the opinions of people such as Ernesto and SD are meaningless to me, I just don't like people telling tales, and I do like to point out their dishonesty when they do that. As for bullies, I haven't seen Israel saying that Iran should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Don, I don't know the basis for your dislike of Israel. Such attitudes that we now see from the Left, and the Demos, are troublesome in that, for some reason, hatred of Jews just doesn't seem to want to go away. I urge you set down and do some serious thinking about how/why Israel was created, and the actions of Trans Jordan, Syria, Egypt,etc...

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#52)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 13, 2006 at 12:57:44 PM EST
    'you're either with us or against us'
    Squeaky - That about says it. There is postively absolutely no middle ground with these terrorists. None. Nada. Like Zero. Nuttin.
    Sounds incredibly similar to this fascist slogan:
    "One folk, One party, One leader."
    Isn't that what lost it for Lieberman? Looks like the difference between America and pre WWII Germany is starting to become apparent. America is not falling for your bedwetter slogans anymore. Politicians that continue to use them will follow Lieberman's fate to join him in the dustbin of history.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#53)
    by Lww on Sun Aug 13, 2006 at 01:07:52 PM EST
    "I just don't like people telling tales, and I do like to point out their dishonesty when they do that." ppj, welcome to the club. We've( by we I mean people who can see the propaganda for what it is) been listening to Zionist "tales" for the last 58yrs. Israel is for Israel, plain and simple. What have they ever done for this country's sake alone? Would a true ally attack and attempt to sink one of our ships and kill 3 dozen Americans? Would a true ally spy on us and sell arms and technology to our enemies. And would a true ally(through their neo-con traitors) push us into a war against a country which was no threat to us but was a threat to Israel? Are these "tales" too? If American politicians came out and said, "yes, were doing it for Israel" and the country went along with it... Anythings better than the dishonesty going on now.

    Re: Israeli PM Endorses Cease Fire (none / 0) (#54)
    by John Mann on Sun Aug 13, 2006 at 09:49:23 PM EST
    Jim wrote - yet again:
    Don, I don't know the basis for your dislike of Israel. Such attitudes that we now see from the Left, and the Demos, are troublesome in that, for some reason, hatred of Jews just doesn't seem to want to go away.
    Another feeble try at equating a dislike of Zionism to a hatred of Jews. Another badly veiled, half-assed attempt at labelling someone who disagrees with you on Israel as being racist. Once again, PPJ, I urge you to google "Jews against Zionism". Here, let me help you out: Link Link Link Link Link What do you have to say about all those Jews who are opposed to Zionism, PPJ? Are they judophobes, too?