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States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws

By Jeralyn, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 10:59:11 AM EST
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Note: TChris also posts about this here.

I'm gonna stand my ground, I won't back down....Tom Petty

The New York Times reports today that states are increasingly enacting "Stand My Ground" laws that allow an individual to shoot to kill in self-defense without first having to "retreat to the wall."

The first of the new laws took effect in Florida in October, and cases under it are now reaching prosecutors and juries there. The other laws, mostly in Southern and Midwestern states, were enacted this year, according to the National Rifle Association, which has enthusiastically promoted them.

15 states have now enacted such laws, and Florida's is serving as a model. I support these laws, but think they should go further and cover businesses not just residences and vehicles. The basics of the Florida law are:

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the law's words, "has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force." The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Colorado has had a "Make My Day" law for many years. But it does not cover business owners, only people who encounter intruders in their home. Here's an example of how absurd that restriction can be.

< Ney Drops Out | Self-Defense or Excessive Force? >

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    States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws | 20 comments (20 topical)
    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#1)
    by Andreas on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 11:45:32 AM EST
    "TalkLeft wrote: "I support these laws, but think they should go further and cover businesses not just residences and vehicles" I am not surprised. This is in line with the support by TalkLeft for the criminal war waged by US imperialism and Israel against the Lebanese people. I suggest to rename the site to "TalkRight".

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#2)
    by lilybart on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 12:04:19 PM EST
    WHAT??!!##??? you Support these laws? Someone killed a neighbor over a trash dispute? A hooker killed an old man instead of taking the gun and fleeing?? I will never live in a state with these laws.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 12:11:30 PM EST
    My point is this: If I'm working at 7-11 and a robber comes in, I can't defend myself until I believe I'm in imminent danger of being killed? By the time I make that realization, given the stress of the situation, I doubt I'd be able to react in time. If the robber had a gun or a knife and the inclination, I'd be dead. What if during the manhunt for Denver serial rapist Brent J. Brents, whose face I had seen on TV, he had broken into a store where I was working? Had it been my house, I could shoot him. But at work, I'd have to take my chances he'd beat me up, rape, or kill me. I think business owners and workers who find themselves alone during a robbery should be able to invoke the same defense as a homeowner or resident or a cabdriver in their vehicle.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#4)
    by lilybart on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 12:32:28 PM EST
    Ã…ND...I bet some southern states will have a rash of self-defense crimes against minorities. the legal lynching of the new century

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#5)
    by TEScott on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 12:39:26 PM EST
    Out here in California we have always been able to stand our ground. Its a cowboy thing. Or so they told us in law school, lo, these many years ago.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 01:38:55 PM EST
    TEScott-- You couldn't be more wrong about California. If you have a means of escape from your home in California, you must retreat. Basically you have to leave your home and let the bad guys have their way with your home. Hell, self defense is illegal in California. I know, I was charged with battery defending myself in a bar in CA. The other guy had a pool cue, was coming at me, I pushed him. They charged me.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#7)
    by peacrevol on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:14:55 PM EST
    I guess maybe other ppl are different than me but I have a small arsenal in my home to protect me and my daughter. If somebody busted into my house, whether forcefully or not, I'm not asking questions. If I know he's not supposed to be in there and I'm fearing for my daughter's or my safety, he's going to be shot or possibly just get his a$$ beat down. It really doesnt much matter what the law is b/c I would rather not take any chances on my daughter's safety, even if that puts me in jeopardy of going to prison for a while. In my eyes, he's putting his life in danger by breaking into my house in the first place. Maybe we should try not to shoot unarmed intruders, but, in the situation, I would probably shoot him and ground check him. My daughter should have the right to be protected, and that right should come way before the rights of someone breaking into my home.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 02:23:14 PM EST
    It's one thing to stand your ground to protect your life. It's another thing to stand your ground to protect your property. If you can easily flee your home or business by leaving through a nearby door and if you choose instead to stand your ground and shoot the intruder, I do not believe that should qualify as self-defense. I don't believe you should have to endanger your own life say by having to flee past the intruder to get to the door, or to use an upstairs window, or an unsafe exit with a downstairs window. But the cases of the garbage shooting and the taxi cab shooting are completely bogus cases of self-defense. There should be some mechanism for a stand my ground law to exclude such abuses. And to otherwise make my point seem shallow, vapid, sexist, and uncaring, that is perhaps the most complimentary picture of a prostitute that I have ever seen in a newspaper.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 03:50:39 PM EST
    The murder rare in the US is on average 3 times higher than any other Western country. Unless we can come to grips with the reasons for this.... will we slowly descend to the point of demanding grenades to defend ourselves? Sound ridiculous, but then, the rest of the world thinks our level of personal violence is just that. Just what causes all this need to kill each other? What are we becoming?

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:19:06 AM EST
    Why does the South always come up? Remember its Florida that started this and theres nothing but Yankees there.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#11)
    by roger on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:37:26 AM EST
    There's an old saying down here: better to be judged by twelve than carried by six

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#12)
    by Aaron on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:39:51 AM EST
    This is the 21st-century answer to problems like homeless people who rummage through your garbage and those annoying friends that just keep dropping by and going on about their pathetic lives regardless of our indifference, or even a lippy wife who just won't shut up. "I swear officer she was advancing on me with that spatula." Now you can just blast your problems away, and call the cops to clean up the mess for you. I guess this falls in line with our new war mentality, it's just not easy enough for human beings to slaughter each other these days, we need laws to protect our right to do so.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 07:25:33 AM EST
    "TEScott-- You couldn't be more wrong about California. If you have a means of escape from your home in California, you must retreat. Basically you have to leave your home and let the bad guys have their way with your home. Hell, self defense is illegal in California." You couldn't be more wrong. California Penal Code, Section 197 "197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases: 1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or, 2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or, 3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or, 4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace." California Penal Code, Section 198.5 "198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred." California Penal Code, Section 198.5 "199. The homicide appearing to be justifiable or excusable, the person indicted must, upon his trial, be fully acquitted and discharged." TRANSLATION 197 - In California, the use of deadly force to protect oneself, someone else, ones property, ones place of dwelling. 198.5 - Using deadly force in ones home against an intruder is manifestly justifiable. 199 - Given 197 and 198.5, you will either be acquitted or the judge will immediately overturn the verdict. You should inform yourself before making blatantly false statements such as you made regarding self-defense laws in California.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#14)
    by Rick B on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 07:29:25 AM EST
    The question I have is what happens to me if I walk into my home, find a burglar there, shoot him, and then find that he is a federal agent using a sneak and peek warrant? Does the self-defense law protect me from the penalities for shooting a federal officer working under a warrant that I knew nothing about? It seems to me that this would concern the federal agencies, too. I'm just curious, but it could be life or death for their agents.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 12:59:36 PM EST
    Collideascope I don't need to inform myself. I speak from personal experience and 10 years living that craphole of a state.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 01:01:42 PM EST
    Rick B. More dead cops (especially Feds) can only be a good thing.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 03:03:37 PM EST
    Okay CharlieO, let me get this straight. Someone attacked you with a pool cue, you pushed him, and you were charged with battery? That's pretty odd. No other circumstances surrounding this? It wasn't a bar fight? Also, you say "they charged me." Okay, weird, but were you convicted of anything? My guess is no. And if you were you must've had the worst lawyer in Cali, if not the nation. Finally, collideascope already said this, but you never have to flee your home. So don't worry about that. In most states you can use comparable (including deadly) force unless you can retreat in complete safety.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 03:43:52 PM EST
    By the way, I think your comment RE: Dead cops is reprehensible. I hope it was a joke.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#19)
    by Lww on Tue Aug 08, 2006 at 05:00:49 PM EST
    That had to be Tim Mcveighs little brother Charlie. Has there ever been a revolution without bloodshed? My kids will see it. Like watching Nero fiddle.

    Re: States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 09, 2006 at 06:20:17 AM EST
    c-law, Not a joke. I meant it. Sincerely. The only good cop is a dead cop.

    States Move to Expand Self-Defense Laws | 20 comments (20 topical)