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Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 09:12:37 AM EST
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Cuba is taking no chances. It doesn't trust the U.S. one bit.

Former revolutionaries promised to keep fighting for Cuba on Saturday as the island beefed up security, saying it fears a U.S. attack during Fidel Castro's health crisis. The government, under the control of Castro's brother, Defense Minister Raul Castro, has mobilized citizen defense militias and asked military reservists to check in daily.

The White House has insisted no such threat exists, with press secretary Tony Snow dismissing the suggestion that the United States would attack the island as "absurd."

Condi Rice yesterday told Cubans not to come to Florida. A segment of the Cuban-American community wants Bush to intervene in Cuba and try to make it a democracy.

The Cuban government used such statements by what it calls the "terrorist mafia" in Miami _ as well as Bush's call Thursday for democratic change on the island _ to justify its fears of an invasion.

The last thing we need right now is to get in the middle of yet another country's strife.

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    Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack | 55 comments (55 topical)
    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#1)
    by roy on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 09:33:50 AM EST
    It seems unlikely that the US would attack any time soon. The Castro brothers are just using us as boogeymen, to solify their power over their citizen-slaves by fear. (To fend off irrelevant responses, yes, American politicians use the same trick)

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 09:39:29 AM EST
    I'm pretty sure Cuba is safe for now. But I'm curious about something: what is wrong with advocating for a democratic Cuba? For supporting democracy and a free-market for the people of Cuba?

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 09:51:49 AM EST
    Whats a democracy? What I want to know is who got shafted in the 50,s to where theyve got a hard on for Cuba nearly 50yrs later.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#4)
    by Aaron on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 10:27:44 AM EST
    Normalized relations with Cuba would be huge economic boon for my part of the country. As I mentioned writing about the Miami Vice movie, Cuba is only 90 miles south of Key West. Everyone would be going to Cuba on the weekends to party and shop if they could. Both the South Florida and Cuba economy will experience dramatic growth when this occurs. The lives of the Cuban people especially will improve immediately when US tourism and trade resume. And everybody will be smoking Cuban cigars again. PS Café Cubano (Cuban coffee) is the best, it really helped get me through college. You can't get it at Starbucks, they don't even know how to make it.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#5)
    by Punchy on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 10:29:35 AM EST
    I think some of you are underestimating what a HUGE HUGE deal this is many Cubans in South Florida. They are off-the-charts crazy passionate about getting rid of Castro and his regime. Being well-established that FL is an enormous swing-state, I would not doubt for a second at least the consideration and public musings of attacking Cuba by aspiring politicians. To be the first to publically advocated it, realistic or not, would seemingly grant that pol an entire bloc of S. Fl Cuban voters....

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#6)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 10:54:46 AM EST
    But I'm curious about something: what is wrong with advocating for a democratic Cuba? For supporting democracy and a free-market for the people of Cuba? Why not just lift the embargo instead of funneling our tax dollars to the remnants of the Cuban mafia?

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 11:03:55 AM EST
    Che - I'm all for lifting the embargo. I've always felt that the embargo plays right into Castro's hands.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 11:34:25 AM EST
    You should read that as "Cuba doesn't trust its own population one bit", and is playing up the nonsense theory of a US attack as a "look, a monkey!" strategy. What they fear is that once Castro is gone, the population will start asking why things have to suck so much.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#9)
    by Sailor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 11:34:39 AM EST
    croc, I find myself agreeing with you. (I hate when that happens;-) I lived in FL for a few years, I had good friends in the cubano community, but there was a level of insanity if castro was mentioned. Almost 3 generations later with few of them ever having know cuba, it was difficult to understand. If it wasn't for that insanity, and the pandering of pols to it, the cuban people could have gotten rid of castro when he crossed the line from revolutionary to dictator. I believe his was a noble cause, but 'absolute power' and all that. If we had been able to visit, show a better life, be an example of freedom ... win the war with 'blue jeans' not missiles, he would have crumbled like the USSR. Sadly, we are no longer the 'shining beacon' and continue to 'stay the course.'

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#10)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 12:08:27 PM EST
    But I'm curious about something: what is wrong with advocating for a democratic Cuba? For supporting democracy and a free-market for the people of Cuba?
    Because the last time they had your version of democracy, 90 percent of the people were illiterate serfs, the infant mortality rate was sky high, the mafia ran Havana, racism was rife, and all the elections were fixed. And that's exactly what the folks in Miami and their folks in DC want to bring back. That's why the Bay of Pigs invasiion was such a "success". Here we go repeating history again.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#11)
    by Rick B on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 12:10:31 PM EST
    Seady, The answer to your question
    What I want to know is who got shafted in the 50,s to where theyve got a hard on for Cuba nearly 50yrs later.
    is also the reason why the Cuban government is right to fear an invasion from the U.S. I'm assuming you aren't old enough to remember the late 50's and early 60's. It wouldn't be the U.S. itself. It would be the Cuban exile community. There are a little over a million of them in the U.S. (Compared to 11.3 million Cubans in Cuba.) The Cuban exile community to a significant extent represents the wealthy previous land-owners and business-owners of Cuba who left after Castro took over. Some are still training for the next invasion. They want to go back and reclaim their lost property and the power their families had before 1959. There is in essence still a Cuban-government-in-exile in Southern Florida, and they still take getting back their country very seriously. They have also been a strong block the Republicans catered to so that they have helped turn Florida Republican. In return, the Republicans keep talking to them like there is still hope they will go back. You have seen references to all this in news reports (mostly American political reports talking about the Cuban population of Florida) but you may not realize the strength of feeling many still have that they are going back to take their country back. [I don't live in Florida, so I am not up on the latest. Anyone who is feel free to correct me - if it's important.]

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#12)
    by Dadler on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 12:29:54 PM EST
    The only thing that matters is WHAT THE CUBAN PEOPLE IN CUBA want. That hudreds of thousands of people who fled, many of them because they or their family were on the side of Batista's tyranny, think they can simply return and turn Cuba into a free-market democractic model in our image, or any image but CUBA'S, strikes me as terribly deluded. If the Cubans are willing to have their country sold out from under them, its profits sucked out, its health care and education systems turned on their heads, its entire culture painted with the ugly brush of Club Med and KFC, well, then I guess I'll eat my words. If these things happen withOUT the consent of the Cuban people won't surprise me either. The sad truth is, I hear a lot of talk about the Cuban people as if they are the most simplistic folk on earth, just waiting to get rid of Castro and ALL he stood for, ready to be consumer trinket crazy and just like us...in short, the same seriously psychologically ignorant kind of talk that was made about Iraq and its people. There will be more than a little resentment toward those who fled and now look to come back and only experience the rebirth. In short, I doubt they'll be viewed as deserving as the natives you stayed and persevered and ARE Cuba. It'll be interesting and, if we keep our ugly mitts off of it enough, it should be a quite beautiful thing to watch. You're talking about a highly educated populace, who CARE about their social services and their distinctly independent Cuban everything. If we let them be, if we let them do it AS THEY WISH, they should be more than fine. THEY should be the example to the world this admin. ignorantly ASSUMED Iraq would be. That would be an irony indeed. If we let them be. And that's a very big, highly unlikely (judging by our history) if.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dadler on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 12:36:37 PM EST
    Now...anyone want to venture a guess as to the possibility of a civil war in Cuba, fought between exiles looking to return and re-establish their highly capitalistically competitive image of Cuba and those who stayed and want to keep evolving Cuba as they have known, lived and directly experienced it with much more modest market changes? And how much property are exiles going to be demanding back?

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 01:35:27 PM EST
    Ernesto -
    And that's exactly what the folks in Miami and their folks in DC want to bring back.
    Well that's sure asinine.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#15)
    by Aaron on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 01:36:29 PM EST
    Dadler Your perception of Cuba is sadly distorted, something out of the 1970s, not the 21st-century and even in the 70s it was little more than propaganda. I think maybe you should start reading something besides the things you find on the World Socialist Web Site. I urge you to take a trip to Cuba and get someone to take you into the countryside and see how people really live there. The vast majority of Cubans are just one step above Haitians in Haiti economically. That is to say the worst quality of life and living conditions in the Western Hemisphere. Cuba is no socialist paradise, it's a hole cut off from most of the Caribbean and US commerce which would immediately improve living conditions across the island. It is no understatement to say the the detainees at Guantánamo Bay have far better food and living conditions than most of the Cuban people. That is a sickeningly sad truth. Also the remnants of the anti-Castro movement are nothing more than a vocal minority in South Florida. They have very little real power, and what power they have is waning as they are more and more pushed to the fringe with each passing year. They and their brainwashed offspring are little more than a remnant of a past which is quickly fading, and will disappear altogether when Castro is gone. The majority of Cubans in Dade and Broward County are Democrats, not Republicans. The chance of a civil war in Cuba is the statistical equivalent of zero. Perhaps you may have noticed that Cubans are still dying on a weekly basis to reach the safety and comfort of capitalism and food in America. Visionary Cubans and South Floridians are just waiting for the invisible walls to go down so they can institute a number of economic plans which will pull Cuba out of the past, a past which has been nearly forgotten by the current generation of thirtysomething Cuban yuppies in America. A liberal free market economy which supports social services for the poor and begins building a legitimate middle-class is the hope of modern forward thinking Cubans down here, not resurrecting the decadence and corruption which once existed on the island in the 1950s. Get with the times.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 02:14:35 PM EST
    Aaron - Great comments. For anyone confused about the conditions of life in Cuba, Human Rights Watch will set you straight.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 02:34:44 PM EST
    Aaron-
    urge you to take a trip to Cuba and get someone to take you into the countryside and see how people really live there. The vast majority of Cubans are just one step above Haitians in Haiti economically. That is to say the worst quality of life and living conditions in the Western Hemisphere.
    Yes your trip seems to been similar to the congressmen who went to Iraq and found a rosy picture there. Who sponsored your Cuban trip and why did you go? How do you square the infant mortality rate between Cuba and Haiti. Cuba 6.45/1,000 as opposed to Haiti's 78.4/1,000. In the UN's Human Development Index Cuba ranks #52 while Haiti ranks #153. Maybe a trip to Haiti would help your math, although if the Republican's could paint a rosy picture from their visit to Iraq I am sure that you could get a tour to paint a rosy picture of Haiti.
    The majority of Cubans in Dade and Broward County are Democrats, not Republicans.
    Got some links, a quick google search of South Florida Cuban Population indicates quite the opposite. 'Liberating' nations is not our strength these days. And your friends in South Florida are helping Bush Family big time. 95% white while Cuba is 30% white, 30% mixed and 30% black. How do your friends possibly know what is good for Cuba? They are looking for a land grab. Your sympathy for the poor in Cuba is touching, but your solution for them is lacking depth or understanding. What do you think will happen to them when your friends lead corporate america to their shores? Guaranteed their quality of life will decline to the levels of Haitians if not worse. Oh and croc_choda Human Rights Watch is very critical of US as well.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 03:35:24 PM EST
    Aaron, you sure you weren't in some other Carribean or Central American hellhole that Uncle Sam's IMF polices have destroyed? Hell, even Argentinians were reduced to looking through the garbage for food after the IMF got through with them. Cuba is free of this menace and the people enjoy a much better standard of living than the victims of our global economic policies in such capitalist paradises as Honduras, El Salvador, Costa Rica, etc.,etc. croc_choda:
    For anyone confused about the conditions of life in Cuba,
    Next to Aaron, I count you among the most confused since you think Cuba is ripe fruit to be re-enslaved but another Bay of Pigs is all you'll get.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#19)
    by Aaron on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 04:16:13 PM EST
    Squeaky I'm glad you're paying attention, perhaps you might consider that my knowledge is a little more in-depth than what you can glean from a quick Internet search, why don't you take a trip to Cuba and see for yourself as well. Come back and will discuss it at length.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 04:32:25 PM EST
    Aaron-I have many friends who have traveled there including a documentary filmmaker. My knowledge is not from google but from first hand reports. Why did you travel there and who sponsored you? And I guess that your claim that the South Florida Cuban population is mostly democrat is as bogus as the rest of your claims. no? Thin, to say the least.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#21)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 05:02:00 PM EST
    Cuba is no socialist paradise, it's a hole cut off from most of the Caribbean and US commerce which would immediately improve living conditions across the island. Well sh*t who are the morons who cut them off? Oh I get it. Castro imposed the embargo on his own. Also the remnants of the anti-Castro movement are nothing more than a vocal minority in South Florida. So you would wish us to believe. In fact they have very extensive political influence both in Florida and in DC. They have existed strongly (well funded) for 46 years. Hardly a "waning" influence. It's always someone else's fault when corrupt capitalism fails, eh Aaron? Yes, Cuba is deprived under Castro. No Jeff Skillings in Cuba. No Adelphia's. No Exxons. No Haliburton, Boeing, Ratheon, GE, Cunningham, Lay and more Delays, no neocon dreams, no money pit hell holes like Iraq. But we have leather interiors. And when I go to the grocery store and see over 20 differnt unique brands of toilet paper available to me I think, yeah, the USA is a great place to live. We got it made in the shade compared to those poor bas**rds. And they see right through the facade.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 06:28:53 PM EST
    seady - Well, it happened like this. After Castro made it plain that he was a communist and wanted to export revolution, the US supported, in an extremely poor manner, an invasion of Cuba by Cuban exiles. It was poorly planned and poorly executed and Kennedy, to his eternal shame, didn't support them. This naturally PO'd Castro, but it also frightened him, so he offerred the Soviets the rights to set up missile launch sites in Cuba. Since they would have been so close that we couldn't defend by using a MAD strike, Kennedy had no choice but to declare an embargo, and we came within a cat's whisker of WWIII. Kennedy, realizing that the Soviets thought him weak, responded by increasing our military involvemner in South Vietnam, and you may know a little bit about that.. So yeah, a few folks have had their panties in a wad at Castro for quite a while. Me? I hope he lives long enough for the Cuban people to shoot him.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#23)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 07:12:37 PM EST
    Me? I hope he lives long enough for the Cuban people to shoot him.
    And I hope Dumbya lives long enough to be tarred and feathered and run out on a rail. But pleasant political fantasies aside, history proves the Cuban people would much rather shoot any former plantation owners or their hired help who try to bring back the good old days.
    ...Kennedy, to his eternal shame, didn't support them.
    The Bay of Pigs invasion failed because JFK was told by the CIA that they Cuban people would rise up and overthrow Castro. How ironic that these old fantasies live on today in so many simple minds.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#24)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 07:53:02 PM EST
    Ernesto, They'll greet us with rose petals and songs.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#25)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 08:01:10 PM EST
    PPJ: I hope he lives long enough for the Cuban people to shoot him. I hope GWB lives long enough and gets smart enough to appreciate the damage he has done to the country that I love more than he does, and then kills himself out of guilt. Unfortunately, guilt is a foreign emotion to a sociopath.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 08:02:18 PM EST
    Che, Trust your government spokesperson. It will be a cakewalk to Havana!

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#27)
    by Sailor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 08:11:52 PM EST
    Cuba has every right to be scared, bush is a proven warmonger, and the neocons controlling that ignorant bastid have tried to institute a policy of ruling the world ... now we all have tears for fears.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 08:44:12 PM EST
    Ernesto - The invasion failed because Kennedy lost his nerve. He pulled out long before the Cuban people had an opportunity to do anything.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#29)
    by Sailor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 08:57:50 PM EST
    The invasion failed because Kennedy lost his nerve.
    the invasion 'failed' because Kennedy was blindsided with it because ike's transition team never told him about it. He rightfully stopped it when he realized INVADING ANOTHER COUNTRY THAT HASN'T ATTACKED YOU IS WRONG! We should have been on the side of the revolution that toppled a corrupt dictatorship. I believe if Castro had had our support, Cuba would be a democracy and we'd be best of friends. Sorry about the shouting TL.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 10:43:53 PM EST
    He pulled out long before the Cuban people had an opportunity to do anything.
    If only your dad had followed a similar strategy... (rimshot) No seriously PPJ, it so happened that JFK was told by the CIA that as soon as the first wave of gusanos hit the beach the people of Cuba would all welcome them with flowers and everyone would cakewalk to Havana and depose Fidel. It seems faulty intelligence is nothing new.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 04:36:42 AM EST
    This is a funny thread. I gotta wonder how many people here were bummed when Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Romania, and the rest of eastern europe dropped communism.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 05:33:53 AM EST
    Banana republics are so much better. I wonder if any wingnuts ever summoned "the nerve" to ever want to overthrow one.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 08:20:48 AM EST
    Wile E. Coyote-You're not paying attention:
    This is a funny thread. I gotta wonder how many people here were bummed when Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Romania, and the rest of eastern europe dropped communism.
    What is funny is that you seem to have missed the whole point of the thread. Perhaps the title will help you: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack There is a huge difference between attacking a country like Iraq in order to bring regime change and a country changing on its own because of internal politics. Maybe, for you, they are the same but for most of us here, we agree with Jeralyn who puts is clearly:
    The last thing we need right now is to get in the middle of yet another country's strife.
    Amen!

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#34)
    by Dadler on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 08:31:23 AM EST
    Aaron, My view of Cuba comes from first-hand experience talking with Cubans who live there, with friends who have traveled there extensively. BTW, I can drive twenty minutes from my dad's house in Georgia and be in rural poverty that would shock you. Ever heard of Appalachia? Our system doesn't work for those most in need, and I doubt a version of that system will do anything for Cubans in need. Our system is about profit over people. Period. That is how it works. Can we help them, sure, but our help historically turns into domination, and that has helped no one. I believe it is YOUR opinion, one that is so simplistic in its view, that views the Cuban people as a passive mass of consumerists just waiting to be like us, that is not only ignorant of history, but ignorant of basic human nature. The kind of ignorance that got us into Iraq and gets us into every cockamamie situation where we think we can just wave a magic American wand and make everything better. Also, thank you for completely putting words into my mouth -- did I say it was any paradise? No. Would I say anywhere on EARTH is a paradise? No. By lying about what I said, purposefully distorting it, you are engaging in thoroughly dishonest, intellectually minor league debate. Deal with what I was talking about -- which is all about the difficult realities and ironies of the situation. You're like Rumsfeld deluded about the middle east. I have no doubt that Cuba is suffering in some vital areas. In others, like education and health care, it is doing better than the U.S. does for its poor. That's called an ugly reality, a difficult irony, things which you seem to have no use for. I don't see the world in black and white as you apparently do. Also, your ignoring of the immoral blockade and sanctions against Cuba say much about your inability to look at the situation in a historically honest fashion. We give aid and comfort and products to scumbag nations with scumbag leaders INFINITELY more oppresive than Castro. But irratinality and the undue influence of the former Cuban community in south Florida have kept our policy from helpin anyone. Our dysfunctional attitude about Cuba represents our ouwn dysfucntion about ourselves. We the U.S. to treat Cuba as it treats almost every other nation on earth, the Cuban people would most likely not be isolated as they are today. That isolation was OUR choice, not theirs. Our irrational picking and choosing of which tyrannies to exaggerate, which tyrannies to downplay, is just sickening, and this discussion of what is best for Cuba, without the input of the Cuban people, is just hilarious. If we put our profit-sucking paws all over that nation, do you really thing, with the history Cubans have of independence, that they'll just march right up? Maybe so. But I don't think so. You do. Fine. And your comment about Gunatanamo prisoners getting better treatment and food than Cubans, well, I can only suggest you seek very professional psychiatric help, that you go speak to those Cubans you're so close to, and ask them which treatment they would prefer. That kind of analogy is so off the charts inane it borders on the silly -- which it would be if I didn't think you actually believed it. Your inability to have a robust and honest discussion here, that takes into account uncomfortable realities about our own failures, is just sad to me. Castro is the powerful Devil who controls everyone's mind and body, that seems to be about the level of your thought here. Lastly, Haiti makes Cuba look like Beverly Hills. There isn't anywhere in Cuba that comes close to Port Au' Prince or those kinds of slums. If there were, we would be seeing them every day as propaganda. As it is, all we really hear and see of Cuba is Castro jailing dissidents. Ever heard of Leonard Peltier? How many people are in American anti-terror gulags right now on no charges? What we rationalize as reasons to throw "threats" in jail is really not much different than Cuba's. But, of course, you'll read this as WE'RE EXACTLY LIKE CUBA, rather than the difficult irony I use it to point out.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#35)
    by Dadler on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 08:32:58 AM EST
    Add Aaron, Now that I go back and re-read my initial post...I haven't the slightest notion where you came up with your b.s. about my view being from the 70's. Nonsense.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 08:36:34 AM EST
    Wile, Your pathological inability to make an accurate analogy is endless. People aren't concerned about throwing off anything, it's what we force them to throw on after that that is of concern. You think we're going to leave the Cubans to their own future? Please, our history is one of thoughtless meddling and cultural ignorance. That recipe is what worries folks. Let the Cubans decide for themselves what they want. This has not been offered as any alternative from right-leaning posters here. What is offerend is let the Cubans decide as long as its what WE want.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 10:01:22 AM EST
    dadler writes:
    My view of Cuba comes from first-hand experience talking with Cubans who live there, with friends who have traveled there extensively.
    Uh, at best that is second-hand information. And is, of course, colored and filtered by the political leanings and bias of those people. Ernesto - Learn to read. I didn't say that the CIA didn't tell him that, but he went into the panic mode and didn't stay the course. With good air cover the Cuban military, such as it was, could not have gotten through to the beaches, or held them, and the results would have been different. That Kennedy did what he did was shameful and caused a ton of later problems for the US and the world.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#38)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 10:13:50 AM EST
    That Kennedy did what he did was shameful and caused a ton of later problems for the US and the world.
    Glad you brought this up, PPJ. I needed to elaborate more here. JFK decided against a larger role by the U.S. military because he knew a big contribution from the native Cubans, not just the Miami exiles and their mercenaries, was needed in order to maintain the legitimacy in the eyes of the world for what was effectively an illegitmate operation. What exactly was shameful about that? In my estimation, it would have been (and it is, and it always will be) MUCH more shameful to impose regime change on a people without their involvement. That you ignore/fail to see this leads me to believe you have no interest whatsoever in the national sovereignty or the self determination of the majority of the Cuban people. But we already knew this, even before this latest confirmation.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#39)
    by roger on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 10:14:32 AM EST
    Jim, What Kennedy did is why cubans in America vote republican. Kennedy is hated in Miami.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 11:09:33 AM EST
    Roger-More like what he did not do. Ergo this thread and Cuba's reasonable fear that the US will attack. Didon suggests that the Cuban terrorists in Miami were behind the assasination of JFK. Although he is hardly the reason that they are rabid wingnuts. From NTY book review of Joan Didon's 1987 bookMIAMI
    Joan Didion's forebodings warn us of the dangers to come. Miami, at the geographic end of a pistol, is, after all, an American city, but it is ''populated by people who also believed that the United States would betray them again, in Honduras and in El Salvador and in Nicaragua, betray them at all the barricades of a phantom war they had once again taken not as the projection of another Washington abstraction but as their own struggle, la lucha, la causa, with consequences we have not yet seen.''
    link

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dadler on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 11:32:11 AM EST
    Jim, Did I say first-hand experience IN Cuba or WITH people? Come on. You can have first-hand experience with people who have lived in Cuba under Castro recently. But that aside, I was answering Aaron's remark about getting all of one's info from, as he gave an example, the internet. I wish we could ALL go to Cuba, don't you? But it's OUR government's choice to bar most travel there; while, for no rationally better reason, they make it easy for anyone who wants to go to, say, China, or Russia, or Saudi Arabia or, or, or.... Also, I am actually capable of taking into account WHO I'm talking to WHILE I'm talking to them, and of understanding just WHAT their perspective entails in terms of prejudice and paradigm and bias. It's the critical process that allows me to think, "Great, Castro's little iron fist might be gone, that's a good thing" and add to it with "But I sure hope we understand the culture and social temperature better than we've done with other places in the past -- or present, like Iraq." It's called critical thinking ability.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 12:18:43 PM EST
    dadler - All you had to do was say that you had spoken with people who had been there. What you were doing is called "gilidng the lilly," trying to add importance to an otherwise routine occurance. And since the CIA and all the world's intelligence agencies plus all the leading Demos don't think Cuba has WND's I doubt we will invade. Ernesto - Look, it's real simple. Kennedy paniced and gave up too soon. It is just that simple. Had he provided air support it is probable that a whole different outcome would have emerged. His actions are one of the worst foreign policy decisions ever made. Roger - Indeed. I have several Cuban friends who never had a good word for him. And I really couldn't blame them. Squeaky - Look. Everyone knows that the evil Rove traveled back in time and talked LBJ into killing Kennedy.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#43)
    by Dark Avenger on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 01:53:41 PM EST
    All you had to do was say that you had spoken with people who had been there. and the semantic difference between your formulation and his is?
    What you were doing is called "gilidng the lilly," trying to add importance to an otherwise routine occurance.
    PPJ, you have a very limited definition of 'first-hand experience' and your attempt to limit the discussion to what you want to talk about is both amusing and futile.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#44)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 02:08:17 PM EST
    ppj - Actually, "gilding the lilly" means embellishing in a positive way a positive that needs no embellishment. The lilly needs no gilding. Learn those idioms. And what kind of "air support" are you talking about? Close to two-thirds of all Cubans chose not to vote at all rather than vote for Batista in the last public election and they certainly wouldnt support one of his propped up underlings. Are you talking about the kind of air support that would effectively wipe out 2/3 of the country (in a freedom loving, democratic way, of course) until the Cuban populace realized that the banana republic thugs like Batista are the best that little brown people can hope for?

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 02:19:47 PM EST
    Whatever it morphed into later on (after blockades, assassination attempts, sabotage, and terrorist attacks, embargos etc), it was a popular revolution. Deal with it and get over it, Frank Sturgis.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#46)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 02:58:19 PM EST
    His actions are one of the worst foreign policy decisions ever made.
    I agree, but for different reasons. His mistake was that he actually went ahead with it, because he believed what the CIA told him about popular support for the the former casino/plantation owners' coup attempt. PPJ...did you ever hear of Operation Northwoods? It sounds like something you would have supported with all your armchair genocide-loving heart. Well, get ready for the redux. I put nothing past the creeps in Miami and their hired hands inside the Beltway: N E W Y O R K, May 1, 2001 In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba. Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities. The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 03:09:57 PM EST
    Everyone should take a moment to consider what sort of mentality would conceive of something like that, let alone seriously discuss it. But, I think you're right Ernesto, ppj would probobly wholeheartedly approve (while simultaneously denying at threat of death that such a thing ever existed.)

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#48)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 05:02:50 PM EST
    Does anyone doubt that the type of minds that conceive things like Operation Northwoods wouldnt think twice about taking out a U.S President if they thought his "shameful actions would cause a ton of later problems for the U.S and the world"?

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:55:06 AM EST
    Ernesto - Uh...I'm referring to "after" the action started. Jondee - You wrote:
    ppj - Actually, "gilding the lilly" means embellishing in a positive way a positive that needs no embellishment. The lilly needs no gilding. Learn those idioms.
    Glad to see that you demonstrate, again, that you don't know what you are talking about: "gild" from the dictionary:
    : to give money to b : to give an attractive but often deceptive appearance to c : archaic : to make bloody
    BTW - I know that you know nothing about military operations, but "air support" is generally understood to be airplanes attacking the enemy, who could be on the ground or in the air.. We can argue about IF on-island enemies of Castro would have became involved, but the simple fact is that since Kennedy canceled the operation and sailed away with his tail between his legs we will never know. And Castro has stated that he was always a communist.. the embarago, etc. had nothing to do with that.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#50)
    by jen on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:31:55 AM EST
    you left out the '2' when you quoted the dictionary
    Main Entry: 1gild Pronunciation: 'gild Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): gild·ed /'gil-d&d /; or gilt /'gilt/; gild·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gyldan; akin to Old English gold gold 1 : to overlay with or as if with a thin covering of gold 2 a : to give money to b : to give an attractive but often deceptive appearance to c archaic : to make bloody - gild·er noun - gild the lily : to add unnecessary ornamentation to something beautiful in its own right
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#51)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:21:17 AM EST
    We can argue about IF on-island enemies of Castro would have became involved, but the simple fact is that since Kennedy canceled the operation and sailed away with his tail between his legs we will never know.
    Not sure how many times I have to say this before it sinks in for you, but Kennedy was told that the native uprising would occur and that is why he went along with the invasion in the first place. When it did not occur, he decided not to make it a completely U.S./Cuban exile operation since this would look bad in the context of the Cold War, with us chastising the Soviet Union for similar actions in eastern Europe. Yes I know it's hard to think in those terms now that we are in the era of Neocon policy of unilateral regime change, but that was the context back then. I am not surprised in the least that you never give any weight to how the vast majority of Cubans felt about the matter. This is the mentality of the nationalist once again shining through (refer to Orwell here). So in effect, the United States government was determined to give the people of Cuba a new government, whether they wanted one or not. This is the same thing we did in Iraq and the same thing the Soviets did in Afghanistan. Now what were you saying about "causing a ton of later problems for the US and the world"? Think about it.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#52)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 11:21:02 AM EST
    This is the mentality of the nationalist.. The nationalist with definate totalitarian underpinnings. As in, I tell you what you want . Btw Jim, nice editing of that definition. Very much in keeping with the way you seem to edit current events, history etc Supposedly they have pills for that kind of thing nowadays. You should look into it.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 11:34:36 AM EST
    To add unnecessary ornamentation to something beautiful in it's own right. Like I said, learn those idioms (before you attempt to use them dishonestly)

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#54)
    by Aaron on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 09:06:25 PM EST
    Squeaky and Dadler and others Sorry for the delayed response, life getting in the way of my blog commenting again how annoying. You know what, you're right I just made it all up, thanks for exposing me Squeaker, it was all BS, I don't actually live in South Florida, I'm a teenager who once lived in the St. Louis suburbs, but now I live in a van down by the river. :) I think it's funny that I find myself defending capitalism to people who, I suppose, have lived their whole lives in a capitalist society and who in all likelihood have deep-seated capitalist tendencies themselves? Am I off base here or have some of you spent your lives in communist dictatorships or socialist countries? If so I guess I would understand your perspective. Personally I find a balance of ideologies works far better. Unbridled capitalism must be tempered with socialism, just as the reverse is true. Am I the only one that gets this. Even Castro has been forced, to some degree, to accept this reality. But when we talk about Castro's Cuba, we're not talking about socialism or communism, not as they are defined by any understanding of mine. It's a fascist dictatorship and nothing less. A Cuban citizen who offends Castro, or someone in Castro's "movement" is likely to die, and die horribly as a lesson to others. The only connection I have with the Cuban community in South Florida is that I've lived and working around them for much of my life. The most substantial connection to power the the Cuban community has in the US is Jeb Bush's wife. But as an observer of the Cuban community for better than 30 years, I noticed some commonalities coming through loud and clear from the people who came here 40 years ago to the people who showed up 20 years ago, to the people who came here five hours ago, a continuity in their description of what Cuban life is like. The pervasive despair which blankets the country and repress the people forcing them to live some fantasy, a fantasy generated in the mind of one man. In a sense, the island is one large prison, and the people who live there are condemned through no action of their own, condemned to live inside some long dead communist dream. I can only imagine the kind of growth that Cuba would have seen if we had normalized relations years ago, no doubt there would be McDonald's and KFC all over the country, and the people who live there would be very thankful for them because they would be living an approximate quality-of-life at least equivalent to islands like Jamaica and Puerto Rico, perhaps a quality-of-life close to that of us here in the US, but we'll never know about that. If it weren't for US federal government policy, Florida governor's would've normalized trade relations with Cuba years ago, and everyone would've benefited, most especially the people of Cuba. All Castro had to do was to institute democratic elections in the country instead of promoting some modern-day feudal system, where his family remains in control in perpetuity, like some kind of half-ass royalty. The island of Cuba is an extremely large land mass, and represents a huge impediment geographically and economically for the entire region. South Florida should be the hub for the Caribbean, and in some minor ways it is, but economically the majority of trade wealth which is being created across the Caribbean is funneled out of the region as opposed to being funneled into the South Florida economy, and economy which only keeps growing and expanding and needs new geographic avenues to project this continuing economic growth, the Everglades is going to run out pretty soon. Shortly the population from the expanding US economy will need new places to live and work, and the sheer undeveloped land mass of Cuba in a prime location for climate, trade and travel, making it highly valuable to everyone. Instead of Cuban farmers buying a little more land to grow a little more food with the profits they make from their surplus, they'll be able to sell off portions of their land for enough profit to go where they like in the world or set themselves up in business there in Cuba. No doubt we'll bring all kinds of things like pollution urban strife and prejudice with us when we come, but people will have opportunity, and people love opportunity, they'll sell their souls for opportunity. I want Cubans to have all the opportunity they can handle, and be free to F-up their lives up just like the rest of us. The important thing is that it will be their choice. Perhaps things have improved in some parts of Cuba at different periods in time, but overall life there remains ridiculously bad compared to every other developed country in the Caribbean, the island of Hispaniola perhaps being the loan exception. And the people who end up suffer the most are the women and children of the island. Even the people who continue to support "the Revolution" a revolution which has been all but forgotten by people outside of Cuba, even they live little better than dogs, not even making sufficient salaries to feed and house themselves and their families. Why do you think these same people risk their esteemed positions in the failed Cuban government to jump on a raft and start paddling through shark infested waters to reach the US, I guess they've just gone crazy. Castro has that effect on many people And come on squeaky, documentary filmmaking in Cuba, it's not exactly like anyone gets a free hand there. But let's see them, I'll watch. At one time I was skeptical about some of the things I heard from Cubans I've known. But eventually I had to come around to the reality of what Cuba is, and what happens there. People die, they die by the hundreds and thousands, and no one hears about it until years later. Human rights and humanitarian organizations are very careful about what they say and publish in regards to Cuba, because they know that if they make the Castro regime look too bad, they'll be barred from the country, and more people will die as a result. But perhaps your friend the filmmaker has some videos courtesy of the Castro regime which "prove" different. Perhaps he missed filming what happens when Cuba's semi-sustainable agriculture has a bad year, and Cubans are reduced to living off beans and rice seven days a week for months or years supplemented with bananas, plantains and sugarcane. The Cuban diet must be supplemented with beans and beef from the US and rice from places like Vietnam, which are ultimately paid for by international aid organizations and foreign governments, and whose distribution is controlled by the Castro government. People who say good things about Castro for the newspapers and TV cameras get their bags of rice first. Now people may not be starving to death right now, but that's only because a large segment of the educated populace have been pressed into serfdom in order to make the organic farming throughout the country work effectively. My dad's a farmer and even with modern equipment it's not a job I would force on anyone, it's tough dangerous work, but what makes it especially tough for the people of Cuba is that they are so deeply dependent on that agriculture, to the point where people would start starving without aid should anything go awry agriculturally. Now in 16th-century France or Haiti that may have been an acceptably strong economy, but in the 21st-century it's not acceptable, especially in a world of free trade agreements. If the United States started pumping tons of grain into Cuba, like Russia did in the old days, grain we are now using to fuel our automobiles because it's so cheap and available, everyone in Cuba would have the kind of protein sources available to them that most everyone else in this hemisphere has access to. Instead they struggle to produce just a small percentage of the meat and milk they need and could be producing with that cheap grain. Hard to believe that Americans are willing to burn food in their vehicles, while people starve right off our shores, but that's how warped our perception has become when it comes to energy. I know my dad would much rather ship all of his corn to Cuba to feed cattle and chickens, than have it processed into ethanol for somebody's car in Detroit. The current Cuban model just isn't the modern Western world, or even the modern Caribbean, it's a model out of the 19th century Cuba, revved up with today's knowledge. A couple of years of extreme drought brought on by global warming say, could lead the Cuban diet to drop down to 1900 cal a day or less, as it has in the past. In effect Castro has made slaves out of his own people, they may be slaves in the service their own needs, but slaves nonetheless. The Cuban people may have been able to make an economy in a bottle work marginally, but that has everything to do with their resourcefulness and nothing to do with Castro. Some of you may want a master's degree in oxen management, I've seen the team used in a demonstration, but personally driving a team of oxen never appealed to me as a wise career move. Call me stuck up. I guess my father is impressed by a sustainable farming without massive petrochemical use, but he goes to the supermarket just like the rest of us. If the Cubans had the equipment and fertilizers and pesticides that my father has available, they could quickly quadruple their farming output with half the land use, and 1/25 of the workforce, thereby freeing up much of the population to pursue their dreams and aspirations in life. Instead of being someone's peon. And Dadler It is no exaggeration to say that the prisoners at Guantánamo are eating substantially higher quality food than many of the poorest Cubans, I should have said, who still must purchase ration cards from the government. Even though milk and meat are imported from abroad, many people often have difficulty getting food with sufficient protein content to prevent their bodies from catabolize their own musculature for the protein necessary to keep their brains functioning properly. The detainees in Guantánamo have air conditioners and three squares a day. And at least someone can come up with reasonable rationalizations for their imprisonment, I can't think of none for keeping the Cuban people imprisoned in their own home. In a very real sense they are no less prisoners than the people held at Guantánamo. You may not like these hard facts, but it is part of the reality of life for a large segment of the Cuban population. Poverty exists everywhere, but the degree and broad spread pervasiveness of poverty seen in Cuba is well beyond that of anything which should be permitted in our hemisphere. It leaves people unnecessarily vulnerable, the kind of vulnerabilities that forward thinking human societies struggle to overcome not perpetuate. It's important to keep in mind that places like the Dominican Republic and Haiti are relatively open to the international community. Much of what happens there, though by no means all, comes to light relatively quickly these days because of a mostly Free international Press. This is not the case in Cuba, the Cuban government prefers to pay soldiers to prevent the world from seeing what's happening on the island, they give preference to this over all other considerations including feeding and caring for people. Kind of the antithesis of modern government actually, where the needs of the people are catered to by the bureaucracies, not the other way around. By most modern measure the country is a dramatic economic and political failure, a failure that the people of Cuba are paying for at this very moment, needlessly while Castro and his family continue to play games at their expense, as they have been doing for the last half-century. Castro's failed state is currently supported by international money, money which comes from the US, Europe, Australia, China, Russia etc. and Fidel Castro takes credit for the assistance that we all provide. So we are engaged in commerce of a sort in the region, the kind of commerce that leaves people destitute as the expense of maintaining a dictatorship. We don't exactly have a whole lot of choices nor do the people of Cuba in this kind of commerce. Castro is the perpetual middleman sucking up all the profits at everyone's expense, not the least of whom are the Cuban people. Nice work if you can get it, and if you can get it and keep it, why ever give it up? This is what I describe as mindless folly, happening right on my front doorstep for years and years, I don't much care who's ultimately responsible any longer, its relevance has all but faded from my consciousness, all I care about is ending it, finally ending it. And for the people of Cuba to enjoy the freedom and prosperity they rightly deserve in the 21st-century. Are you falling for my BS again squeaky, can you tell that I'm just making this crap up? Maybe when Cuba becomes free, they'll be some investigations that uncover some of the mass graves throughout the country, and will finally have an overwhelming body of substantive evidence to put the myth of a benevolent Castro to bed forever. I don't know what part of the country all of you live in, but when I talk about this part of the world it's home. And it's shamed me to watch this travesty continue for decade after decade. In this respect I am perhaps empathetic with the anti-Castro Cuban community. I also believe it shames everyone who watches and just accepts the status quo while people continue to suffer with no end in sight. I may be no great authority on the Cuban community in South Florida, but I am the undisputed authority on what I see with my own eyes and here with my own ears, and perhaps most importantly feel in my heart, those are the things that I most like to discuss. And I know that when Castro and his ilk are gone Cuba will be free to blossom once again, taking its rightful place as one of the true flowers of the Caribbean. PS I stick with everything I said, even the BS about there being more Cuban Democrats in South Florida I'm sticking with that one to the bitter end. And as for your personal attacks, well, they are beneath me, and may I say beneath you as well, and I will not dignify them with responses. :) Again I urge you to go to Cuba and see for yourselves. All you need is a Canadian passport.

    Re: Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 11:31:35 PM EST
    Again I urge you to go to Cuba and see for yourselves. All you need is a Canadian passport.
    LOL...I was taking that entire diatribe somewhat seriously until I came to the punchline. Classic! I can't believe I fell for it the first time!

    Cuba Beefs Up Security, Fears U.S. Attack | 55 comments (55 topical)