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Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 05:52:52 AM EST
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An era may be coming to an end. Cuban leader Fidel Castro handed over the reins of power Monday to his brother Raoul Castro following surgery. Apparently, the 79 year old Fidel, who has outasted nine U.S. Presidents, developed complications.

White House reaction:

White House spokesman Peter Watkins said: ''We are monitoring the situation. We can't speculate on Castro's health, but we continue to work for the day of Cuba's freedom.'' The State Department declined to comment Monday night.

As for Cuba during Castro's rule:

The world neared nuclear conflict on Oct. 22, 1962, when President John F. Kennedy announced there were Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba. After a tense week of diplomacy, Soviet leader Nikita Krushchev removed them.

Meanwhile, Cuban revolutionaries opened 10,000 new schools, erased illiteracy, and built a universal health care system. Castro backed revolutionary movements in Latin America and Africa.

But former liberties were whittled away as labor unions lost the right to strike, independent newspapers were shut down and religious institutions were harassed.

The United States and most Cubans in Miami don't like Castro. Others in the world have a different opinion:

He has won friends by sending 20,000 Cuban doctors abroad to treat the poor, mainly in Venezuela, but some as far afield as Pakistan, Indonesia and East Timor. Some 260,000 patients from Latin America and the Caribbean have undergone free eye surgery in Cuba since 2005 in a joint program with Venezuela.

Castro was greeted by crowds like a rock star in Argentina this month. Anti-globalization youths see him as a hero, along with revolutionary Che Guevara.

The article asks whether he is a "socialist beacon or ailing despot?" I'd have to say he's a little of both.

As for Raul Castro, Reuters has this "fact box."

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    Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery | 134 comments (134 topical)
    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#1)
    by Johnny on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 04:02:42 AM EST
    Wishing him a speedy recovery.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 04:46:57 AM EST
    Me too.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 06:01:08 AM EST
    Castro was, and is, a stone cold killer. That you idolize him shows that you have zero sense of history.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#4)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 07:02:45 AM EST
    ppj - The trouble is, if the U.S had installed him and propped him up for years, like Pinochet, the Shah, Noriega etc not only would you not be complaing about him being "a stone cold killer", but, you'd have nothing derogatory to say at all. Interests trump morality after all.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#5)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 07:13:17 AM EST
    The Cosa Nostra and Batista's thugs running Havana: now thats wholesome, good old fashioned, family values in action. Even if the Cubans didnt know it.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#6)
    by aw on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 07:26:58 AM EST
    I hope the Bush admin stands back and allows the situation to unfold without interference. The crazies might just decide it's a good time for another invasion.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#7)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 07:37:06 AM EST
    If they thought it would guarantee them Florida they would. Whats another hundred thousand dead compared to more power?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 07:41:59 AM EST
    PPJ -- Gloria Estevan's father was a bodyguard for Battista's wife. When the revolution happen he was put in jail. The very next morning, after it had been affirmed that he was an absolutely clean cop -- in fact Gloria said he wouldn't even take a cup of coffee without paying for it -- they let him go. Neither father nor daughter like Castro, but they're honest about that, and that speaks volumes. Now look at the snarling face of Dick Cheney on the "Conservatives Without Conscience" on the right hand side.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 07:44:06 AM EST
    PPJ -- Gloria Estevan's father was a bodyguard for Battista's wife. When the revolution happen he was put in jail. The very next morning, after it had been affirmed that he was an absolutely clean cop -- in fact Gloria said he wouldn't even take a cup of coffee without paying for it -- they let him go. Neither father nor daughter like Castro, but they're honest about that, and that speaks volumes. Now look at the snarling face of Dick Cheney on the "Conservatives Without Conscience" ad on the right hand side. There's your animal right there. Him and all the CEO's who helped him steal his elections.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 07:52:49 AM EST
    I think the mixed judgment of him is about right. Though I wonder about those "independent newspapers," and I know John Paul II never liked Castro (and certainly not Benedict XVI). I love the Catholic Church, but I can't help but wonder if she's been getting as good as she's been giving down there. Of course, on all these issues, I yield to the judgment of the better informed. (Not to be confused with those with the biggest mouths.)

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#11)
    by roy on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 07:58:04 AM EST
    I'm not going to wish an old man dead, but if he could get a twinge in that wonky bowel of his every time he cosiders treating his people like chattel, that'd be an improvement. Maybe a little aversion therapy; enforce the ban on politcal parties other than Communist, poop your drawers.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#12)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:00:40 AM EST
    I'm not a big Castro fan, but he has so far outlasted 10 American presidents who wished him gone. Whatever his shortcomings, and they are legion, Fidel has two things sorely missing in American politics. Cojones.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#13)
    by desertswine on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:20:55 AM EST
    By the late 1950's, American capital control: 90% of Cuba's mines 80% of its public utilities 50% of its railways 40% of its sugar production 25% of its bank deposits Not to mention Meyer Lansky and Charlie Lucky running junk out of Havana with Batista's blessing. Castro's been around too long, but he certainly was an improvement over the Batista regime.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#14)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:22:44 AM EST
    Im not a big Castro fan either, but if ever there was a leader and a country that had alot of very good excuses provided for it for developing a paranoic, seige mentality, it's Cuba.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:24:01 AM EST
    PPj just wishes he could 'idolize' aWol as well as some here have done for Castro.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:38:27 AM EST
    Repack - And that fact makes him a good leader? Gesh. Et al - The fact that Batista was bad doesn't make Castro good. The fact that we supported Batista doesn't mean that we should have supported Castro. You have a bad case of: "If he hates America he must be a good guy." That makes you no different than those who said: "If he supports us he must be good." Had we gotten rid of him in '61, we can see that several things would not have happened. We wouldn't have been at the brink of WWIII with the Soviets. A lot of people who died due to Castro's and Che's support for various wars in CA and Africa would have lived. Rejoice that he is dying. Maybe the Cuban people have a chance.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:54:12 AM EST
    Gesh as always PPJ misses the point
    Et al - The fact that Batista was bad doesn't make Castro good. The fact that we supported Batista doesn't mean that we should have supported Castro.
    the point is that US support of corporate interests by backing rulers that allow the US to loot the country of its resources at the expense of the average citizen leads to rulers like Castro.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:54:38 AM EST
    A lot of people who died due to Castro's and Che's support for various wars in CA and Africa would have lived.
    I wonder how many people have died because of our support for various wars in CA, Africa, and the ME? I bet alot more that Castro. I agree with AW. I am afraid that Bush and his minions might invade. Just because we can and we might win does not mean we should!

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:56:21 AM EST
    It amazes me that certain people on this site who rightfully argue against government wiretapping, for defendants rights, freedom of the press and assembly, etc... can actually say words of encouragement toward Fidel. It is possible to hate Bush and Fidel, but you wouldn't know it from a few of the preceeding comments.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 09:47:15 AM EST
    debbie - And your point is because we have supported "dictators" that you should support Castro? Come on, folks. The first thing we are taught is that two wrongs don't make a right. I go back to what I said the other day, perhaps it disappeared into the twilight zone. Why do you oppose every revolution that may help US interests, and support every revolution that harms US interests? i.e. The Soviets attacked Afghanistan, and we gave weapons to the rebels. Now I will grant you that it was in our self interests to do so. But all I ever see is criticism for us giving the weapons, never any of the Soviets for invading. What I see, time and again, is a double standard.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#21)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 10:03:50 AM EST
    What I see is your inability to understand the consequences of that action. Sometimes its a good idea to try and look more than 1 step ahead.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 10:07:46 AM EST
    Because people like PPJ never look more than 1 step ahead or back to examine the consequences of their actions they are free to keep making the same mistakes over and over. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#23)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 10:34:57 AM EST
    the point is that US support of corporate interests by backing rulers that allow the US to loot the country of its resources at the expense of the average citizen leads to rulers like Castro How can one make excuses for Castro? So Castro doesn't have the ability once in control to run his government? Castro couldn't have opened up his country like China and the Soviet union. Its been 49 freaking years! But according to Soccerdad when Castro installed himself in power 49 years ago every action he took since then can be traced back to US interference? He is not a person that can make his own decision and can be held responsible for his own actions. Nope, blame the US first. Which president? Which party? Doesn't matter. America suck. One really has to hate America to follow that logic. Castro is a murdering dictator. That's it. One can say that no human deserves to die. Fine. But well wishes to murderers and defending their actions only shows how unserious one takes world issues. A dead Castro is good for Cuba if it means that they get a real goverment that isn't a hold over to pre Cold War Communism. Cuba is number 2 on the worst goverments in the world for human rights behind North Korea. And the only reason is Castro didn't inherit his oppresive communist regime from his dad like Kim did getting a head start on oppression.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#24)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 10:36:52 AM EST
    Insanity: "Blaming the US for everything that happens in the world" PPJ

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 10:38:11 AM EST
    ppj - The fact that we were trying to "get rid of him" when it was the Cuban peoples business to get rid of him or not, was the reason we were at the brink of WWIII with the Soviets. Or did you forget that? Again, what comes first, "interests" or morality (or, if you prefer, wholesome family values)?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#26)
    by Peaches on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 10:42:22 AM EST
    Cuba is number 2 on the worst goverments in the world for human rights behind North Korea.
    You got a link for that stat Slado? According to mine they didn't even make the top twenty.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#27)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 10:56:39 AM EST
    Slado - Dont be stupid. If thats possible. Acknowledging the U.S's unrelenting hostility and arrogant paternalism toward a sovreign nation simply because it had the unmitigated gall not to place U.S interests first is an unarguable statement of historical fact that has nothing to do with any Fox News bumperstickers about "America hating." Agree-with-me-or-your-a-traitor is a slur worthy of Stalin or Castro at his worst.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 10:57:02 AM EST
    Slado wrote:
    One really has to hate America to follow that logic.
    I love my America. It is the conservative neo-con one that I hate.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:01:43 AM EST
    Peaches - Obviously he heard it from Rush or O'Reilly, so it's gotta be true. Only an America hater would disagree.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:02:53 AM EST
    Jondee - No, the reason was that the Soviets decided to support Castro as a puppet government, and wanted to place the US under a direct threat attack, forcing us into a corner. If Castro had exhibited any amount of democratic intentions the situation would never have occured. That he further displayed his ruthless dictatorship for all of his reign speaks for itself. Slado ??

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:16:21 AM EST
    Right Jim. You're suggesting that Cuba was seriously contemplating some kind of offensive attack on the U.S unconnected to any attempts to overthrow Castro?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:22:28 AM EST
    Interesting that the only time you ever hear the term "puppet government" is when its a government the Right dosnt approve of.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#33)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:23:16 AM EST
    A lot of people who died due to Castro's and Che's support for various wars in CA and Africa would have lived.
    I wonder how many people have died because of our support for various wars in CA, Africa, and the ME? I bet alot more that Castro.
    This is where logic has failed someone. The correct response to the statement that many people die because of US action is "So what does that have to do with the fact that Castro is a murderer?" It baffles me that anyone would actually think that Castro's illegal and immoral acts can be forgiven because "well, other people died too." Similarly, the fact that Fidel is (arguably, but let's be real, probably NOT) better than Batista does not mean he's a great guy. It certainly doesn't mean he's worthy of admiration (e.g. He's got cojones; he's got an excuse for being a murderer; I hope the murderer gets well soon, wouldn't want him to miss too much work!). I love this comment most of all:
    The trouble is, if the U.S had installed him and propped him up for years, like Pinochet, the Shah, Noriega etc not only would you not be complaing about him being "a stone cold killer", but, you'd have nothing derogatory to say at all.
    Jondee, if the U.S. had installed him, you'd be the first to be listing him with other dictators and calling for his removal. As it is, since he managed to create his oppressive little regime all by himself, you can't help but say "it's the Cuban people's responsibility to get rid of him and if they can't, well, they can just live their squallid little lives in misery. After all, it is a sovereign country."

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#34)
    by Johnny on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:30:23 AM EST
    Whatsamatter Jim, got a case of cubophobia? Seriously, I wish the man well health and instantly you act as if I put him on a pedestal, salaaming away... The twisted logical route you use to arrive at that conclusion boggles the mind. What chaffs the wrong-wingers buttocks isn't that he is a killer (we support and have supported worse), it is that he is a leftist. The US, since the 1940's, has done everything it can to udnermine leftist governmnets everywhere. And then we can point the finger and say: "See? Leftism does not work." Never you mind that the US is the only country that ever even half-a$$edly supported the embargo on Cuba. I was the recipient of an email from a neo-con at work... Something about the liberal brain... prominent on the "map" was the "moral relativism" sector.. And all I could think was the 100,00's of thousands of people dead as a result of american military action in the world since 1946. You know, people killed because someone in charge had a different political idealogue? Anyways, here's wishing Fidel a speedy recovery.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#36)
    by roger on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:41:31 AM EST
    Shortly after taking power in Cuba, Fidel came to the US to meet with JFK. Up to this point, Castro had been making some democratic noises about his intentions. As there had been no prior arrangement, JFK refused to meet with Castro. Fidel went home, and the rest is history. Missed opportunities.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#37)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:43:37 AM EST
    Johnny, Leftism sometimes works (see Europe). Communism never works. Lets be blunt. If you support Castro's regime your a communist still living the dream. If you are using this situation as an excuse to bash the president and the US in general then you're a political opportunist who doesn't care what the facts are. Or again your a communist.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#38)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:43:50 AM EST
    Bush could always use the old Bolton scheme of accusing the Cubans of making bio weapons at their pharmaceutical plants. All in all I think Cuba has done fairly well despite a total economic emgbargo going on for 40 years.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#39)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:55:12 AM EST
    And all I could think was the 100,00's of thousands of people dead as a result of american military action in the world since 1946. You know, people killed because someone in charge had a different political idealogue?
    Here it is again. America killed people, therefore other killer governments get a free pass. Indeed, they should be happy, healthy, and free to keep on killing, right? Oh, and I love the idea that the reason leftist governments failed during the last half of the twentieth century is because the US "undermined them everywhere." I suppose leftist governments before the last half of the twentieth century were just bastions of happy workers and benevolent governments.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#40)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 11:59:32 AM EST
    I said
    the point is that US support of corporate interests by backing rulers that allow the US to loot the country of its resources at the expense of the average citizen leads to rulers like Castro
    Slado replies
    How can one make excuses for Castro?.....
    talk about a lack of reading comprehension and logic. Just too anxious to bash me than to think about. But of course to the neocons US actions never have bad consequences therefore they can continue with their insanity.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#41)
    by Peaches on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 12:08:26 PM EST
    It baffles me that anyone would actually think that Castro's illegal and immoral acts can be forgiven because "well, other people died too."
    Can we get a little bit more specific. What were these illegal and immoral acts?
    Shortly after taking power in Cuba, Fidel came to the US to meet with JFK.
    I think he came to the US to meet Nixon when he was vice-president for Eisenhower. Nixon sent an aide to meet him, instead who informed Castro that he was a communist, because Castro wanted to establish peasant ownership of land and take away ownership of the large plantations by a relative few wealthy landowners. Castro came to the US to establish a relationship with the US. He was not seeking to become a communist nation when he took power. Upon Nixon's rejection, he went to the USSR as a matter of survival.
    Johnny, Leftism sometimes works (see Europe). Communism never works.
    Well, Slado, it depends on what you mean by work. Cuba is essentially a third world nation that has been operating under an economic embargo for over forty years. Yet, they have great baseball teams, a health care system that takes care of all its citizens, a life expectancy higher than the US, Higher infant mortality rates than the US, and higher literacy rates. Its population is very well educated and is happier on average than Americans on average according to any measurement for happiness. They have great music and great food. They have managed to achieve this despite the constant threat from American interference. Fidel, I wish you well also. To the Cuban citizens I extend my sympathies and apologize on behalf of my corrupt leaders and the viscious vitriol orchestrated on behalf of the corportocracy.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#42)
    by roger on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 12:20:10 PM EST
    Peaches, Thanks for the correction. My info was from the History channel, and I saw it a while ago. Point remains- Castro tried to get along with us. Hopefully we learned something for the future.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#43)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 12:55:46 PM EST
    Peaches stop it. Don't glaze over the reality of living in cuba. It sucks and you know it. Free Health care? Really? Free equals what? Free visits to a doctors office to tell you that your going to die? Free abortions to keep the population down? Liberals throw around the term Free Healthcare when making apologies for Castro but what does that really mean? I suppose you completely disregard the feelings of the millions of Cubans living in South Florida who don't share your admiration of Cuban society and were dancing in the streets yesterday with the glimmer of hope that Castros possible death provides. My gosh man. Really? I can stomach an argument that the US blockade is uneccessary etc.... but saying Cuban society is anything other then terrible? I'm in disbelief.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#44)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 01:02:51 PM EST
    Heres someone who disagrees with the Free Healthcare argument. The Real Cuba

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#45)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 01:07:18 PM EST
    Me:
    It baffles me that anyone would actually think that Castro's illegal and immoral acts can be forgiven because "well, other people died too."
    Peaches:
    Can we get a little bit more specific. What were these illegal and immoral acts?
    We can getmore specific (and I'm happy to), but let's be clear that specificity does not make the following statement (the statement that you and others here ignore repeatedly) any less true: The fact that US actions have resulted in deaths does not absolve Castro from the deaths he has caused. It is ridiculous that every time someone points out a murderous tyrant overseas otherwise rational people feel compelled to say "Yeah, but the US is worse." As if it matters. A murderer is a murderer and we should not be championing one just because he's "less evil" than the US. Now, for some facts about Castro's Cuba: 1. They are second only to China for having the worst press freedoms. Journalists (except those that belong to the government-owned paper) are frequently beaten, evicted from their homes, arrested, and jailed. 2. There have been numerous human rights violations of prisoners including torture, executions without trial, the taking of political prisoners, forced confessions, and show trials. 3. Members of the state police routinely beat black people. 4. Their constitution includes a article (no. 62) which states that all legally recognized civil liberties can be denied to anyone who opposes socialism or communism. 5. The government harasses those who do not attend approved political rallies. 6. It is illegal to assemble in public if such assembly is contrary to the aims of the socialist state. 7. There is no freedom of religion. Religious groups must be registered with the government. The Cuban government intimidates and harasses those who fail to register. Even those who do register were subject to government surveillance. 8. The government jails and murders those who advocate political change. There, Peaches, that's a good start. I don't think it's such a "great" country. What good is the "great music and great food" if there is no freedom of the press, association, or religion? What do I care if the baseball's good and I can still be subject to torture and a show trial?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 01:07:48 PM EST
    Gabriel - Precisly. It's the Cuban peoples job. Not United Fruits; Exxon/Mobils; the "regime changers"; the 15-mil-a-day blue-eyed apartheidists or anyone elses.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 01:20:06 PM EST
    The trouble is, when all those wrongs are inflicted on Palestinians , Gabriel sees it as a victory for the chosen of God. Once you've been annointed and made righteous for all time, it only looks like hypocrisy.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#48)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 01:35:29 PM EST
    Ah, sovereignty: justifying genocide and other human rights abuses since 1648. That'll make a great Democratic slogan for '08: Kill your citizens, we don't care.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#49)
    by Peaches on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 01:37:07 PM EST
    Gabriel,
    The fact that US actions have resulted in deaths does not absolve Castro from the deaths he has caused.
    It is a good thing you included in your post the disclaimer before your list of alleged Cuban violations (that were'nt very specific). Because when you conclude with
    What do I care if the baseball's good and I can still be subject to torture and a show trial?
    I couldn't help but think of Norman Parker. Or any other young Black American male for that matter. Or Native American. Or Latino...Or any poor American living in the USA. Castro Human rights records are not clean. I am not excusing them. However, they are far better than most countries in the world and he has much less blood on his hands than any American President and es[pecially our current one. That aside, Cuba is also a better place to live than most places in world. Castro has been a critic of American foreign policy and has not allowed his people and resources to be expoited by the corporatocracy for the benefit of the wealth holders in America. This is his greatest crime. Slado, Explain why the Cuban people have a higher life expectancy and a lower infant mortality rate than the US. Explain why they have higher literacy rates.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#50)
    by Johnny on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 01:51:39 PM EST
    Slado, you cannot read, nor can you understand what you think you do. A. I NEVER, ANYWHERE, said that Fidel is "good" and US "bad". You simply, because your uber-rightwing extremism politics dictates you to do so, infer that I feel that way. B. I NEVER said dictators get a free pass because "we do it too". See above. Just clearing that up. So why the hatred of leftism? Is it the whole egalitarian concept? Or is it the whole take care of people because they all have worth thing? How many nations prior to WWII were leftist? How many leftist nations has the US not tried, either through economic or miltary sanctions, fvcked with? And I am NOT talking about nations with a few social programs like msot of Europe.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 01:54:47 PM EST
    How bad is Castro? I don't really see him doing anything our "elites" don't. It's just that ours are just slicker about it. Well, that was until the Soviet Union fell. Now they can't steal enough fast enough. And the lie so baldly. Just listened to Ed Schultz talk about how delapidated everything is over there, and how much the police control information. He's a source I can trust. I think. Though as far as I know he could be an intelligence asset meant to keep us under control. Stranger things have certainly happened in this country.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#52)
    by Peaches on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 01:56:49 PM EST
    I suppose you completely disregard the feelings of the millions of Cubans living in South Florida who don't share your admiration of Cuban society and were dancing in the streets yesterday with the glimmer of hope that Castros possible death provides.
    You are so fos, Slado. There are approximately 800,000 cuban immigrants in South Florida - not millions. Not all of them share in dancing going on, although we can assume many of them are looking forward to a Post-Castro Cuba. But many Americans are also looking forward to a post Bush administration and will be dancing in the streets if the democratic candidate wins in 2008. What are we suppose to conclude from these demonstrations? Some people are happy about change and they should be. Change always means new opportunities. It doesn't always mean things will get better for the majority, however.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 01:57:13 PM EST
    Explain why the Cuban people have a higher life expectancy and a lower infant mortality rate than the US.
    Genetics? Fewer cars? More temperate climate? Cultural disinclination toward obesity? Etc?
    Explain why they have higher literacy rates.
    Comparative lack of social diversity? Comparatively tiny population? Spanish is easier to learn than English? Etc?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#54)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 02:11:46 PM EST
    It is ridiculous that every time someone points out a murderous tyrant overseas otherwise rational people feel compelled to say "Yeah, but the US is worse."
    OK Bucko show us who said that. What people have said is that US actions have led to that dictator's rise or staying in power.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#55)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 02:14:23 PM EST
    Millions of Cubans in South Florida; second worst human rights record in the world; I think Slado's pretty much disqualified himself from any further credible participation in the discussion.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#56)
    by Peaches on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 02:24:50 PM EST
    SUO, Genetics? Campare Cuba to Jamaica, Mexico, Dominican Republic. No, not genetics Fewer cars? Lifestyle certainly figures in. More temperate climate? Again care to other island nations in the area. No it is not the climate. Cultural disinclination toward obesity? lifestyle, again, certainly plays a part Etc? and....refers to? Cuba also has an advanced health care system operating on limited resources. A health care system that is based on preventitive care of the whole population and not on greed and profits. Thus, they are concenred with the health of the community to keep costs low, so diet, exericise and lifestyle all all very important for maintaining the high quality of health on the island. Comparative lack of social diversity? meaning lack of social stratification of classes? I don't think it answers the wuestion of literacy. Comparatively tiny population? 11 1/2 million is not really tiny, but small compared to the whole US. Literacy rates are in percentages and 11 1/2 million is a significant sample size and comparable to the US for rates. For instance, if NYC had a higher literacy rates than the rest of the US, no one would complain about the size of NYC being tiny. Spanish is easier to learn than English? it is? To speak or to write? What makes you say this. etc. iow, you don't have an answer - not that I asked you ;)

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#57)
    by desertswine on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 02:28:32 PM EST
    Spanish is easier to learn than English?
    Yeah, that must be it. They probably have less words. Or maybe only 15 or so letters in their alphabet. Haw!!

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#35)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 02:33:37 PM EST
    Yes, someday Castro will pass. Maybe someday the neocon wet dream will come to fruition, and Cuba will become another country liberated (converted) by Democracy. Like Haiti. The crown jewel of a democratic society under US tuteledge. And I'm just staying in the caribbean. [deleted for profanity, etc.]

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#58)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 02:46:00 PM EST
    Peaches, no you didn't ask me, I didn't realize you wre having a private conversatin on this public forum;-) However, I guess shorter version of my answer is: because you're comparing apples to oranges? I'm sure my town scores higher on all the measures you cite compared to the US as a whole. So what does that prove? Nada I think.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#59)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 02:55:26 PM EST
    Peaches come on. I'm not fos (I assume that means full of poop) but full of facts. You completely disregarded photo evidence of poor hospital conditions in a Cuban Hospital and fell back on your statement with now sources. Second you explicitly trust the "facts" coming out of a communist state that controls its own press. I was in Shanghai last year and they have one of the lowest incidents of traffic accidents in the world. Want to know why. All the people that get killed on bikes aren't reported because guess what? The government controls the press. You say you are against Bush because of what? He's tapping phones of terrorists? If you have to defend Castro to defend you philosophies then I truley feel for you man. Peace. Jondee. I apologize for exageration. IMHO Cuba has the second worse goverment in the world. I'm refrencing my list when I say that. If 800,00 happy american Cubans doesn't mean as much to you as 2 million fine. Cuba is a hell hole. If you think America right now is a worse place to live then living in Cuba then say so right now on record. Unbelievable.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:01:50 PM EST
    Higher literacy, lower infant mortality, better nutrition, lower rates of obesity, "prove nada"? You're probobly right. Do those people ever get to hang with Mel Gibson; thats the real question.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#61)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:03:49 PM EST
    dswine, I must admit I was going on what my HS Spanish teacher told us, but since you made me look it up:
    The short answer is that, yes, English has far more words at its disposal than does Spanish, but the ratio isn't anywhere near that large. The ratio is probably closer to 2:1, although there is no exact way to give an answer.
    Also, English is full of words that you just have to memorize the pronunciation and/or spelling of (limb, weigh) whereas Spanish is much more orderly. Probably having to do with English sharing both Latin and Germanic influences, while Spanish is mostly Latin-influenced. English grammar can also be difficult, for example:
    They probably have less words.
    should really be written:
    They probably have fewer words.
    you know, stuff like that...

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#62)
    by desertswine on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:04:09 PM EST
    ...photo evidence of poor hospital conditions in a Cuban Hospital...
    Cuban medical embargo.
    In 1989, the World Health Organization extolled Cuba's health care system as a "model for the world." Cuba, with its nutritional safety net, extensive system of family doctors and sophisticated tertiary care facilities, had achieved the highest quality of life indicators in Latin America, including an infant mortality rate 30 points below the average, on a par with the developed world.
    But ten years later two studies, conducted by the American Public Health Association (APHA) and the American Association for World Health (AAWH), indicate the Cuban people, especially the children, are now facing dangerous shortages of medicines and medical supplies. Although some of the blame can be placed on the dissolution of the Soviet bloc countries and inefficiencies within Cuba, the APHA and the AAWH find that the fault lies primarily with the U.S. embargo of Cuba.
    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#63)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:09:46 PM EST
    Jondee, are you talking to me? If so, can you respond to something I actually said?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#64)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:10:44 PM EST
    Thats right derstwine and Jondee. Believe the facts coming out of a state controlled press. Unbelievable. Baghdad Bob said the US would be crushed in the desert by mighty Iraq forces. That's how much credibility I give facts coming out of Cuba. Heres another link about how great your Cuba is that you won't read. Castro the Coward

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#65)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:12:39 PM EST
    Oops, heres the link Castro

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:12:45 PM EST
    Jondee - No, the concern was Castro exporting revolution in SA and CA. Which he did. The Soviets vastly underestimated what our response would be, just as Hizbolla underestimated what Israel would do. I repeat. Castro's mouth got him in trouble so he turned to the Soviets. I repeat. You support Castro yet you condemn Bastita... Both were killers.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#67)
    by desertswine on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:14:17 PM EST
    English has far more words at its disposal than does Spanish...
    Oh man, my mistake. I don't think I know more that 30 words anyway.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#68)
    by desertswine on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:15:33 PM EST
    But I don't think that would make it easier to learn tho.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:19:09 PM EST
    Slado - Depends on where you live in America. Yeah Im saying that a kid who lives in a drug and crime ridden neighborhood, who's single mother is working two jobs to keep food in the refrigerator, is no better off than anyone in Cuba. Lets talk specifics; not slogans, bumperstickers, and generalities.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:23:23 PM EST
    suo - I believe, unless I misunderstood you, that you said higher literacy rates, lower infant mortality, better nutrition, etc "prove nada."

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#71)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:29:04 PM EST
    Fine Jondee. Good point. But IMHO overall there is no comparison. Even that poor kid living in a drug infested neighborhood can protest his goverment, get on the internet, say Bush should be impeached, etc... The kid in Cuba can't. If him or his family does they will be thrown in jail or worse killed. He has no newspaper to tell him how bad he really has it (is your point ingnorance is bliss) and his mom isn't allowed to get a better job or do anything to improve their situation. Nope her life, her parents, her kids, their kids life is controlled by the government. And unless that goverment decides that they have something to offer the goverment that's the way it will be. Their food, their school, their helthcare, their entire life is controlled by the government. They don't get to vote, they don't get to choose they don't get to do anything but live day to day and wait for the government to make decisions for them. I choose America. Sure America has real problems that need to be fixed and one can disagree whether a policy of tax cuts and personal choice is better then government assistance. Fine. But to argue that living in Cuba or even to suggest is better then living in the US seems crazy to me. Especially when you consider that the regime controls the press, the networks and all the information. How can any statistics be accepted as arguing points?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#72)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:32:18 PM EST
    Slado - Quit while you're behind. Your credibility crashed into the mountain sometime near the middle of the thread. But again, 800,000 isnt equivalent to "millions" and Rush-says-Cuba-is-bad dosnt mean "the second worst human rights record world-wide."

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#73)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:46:53 PM EST
    Jondee, I said:
    I'm sure my town scores higher on all the measures you cite compared to the US as a whole. So what does that prove? Nada I think.
    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#74)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 03:55:37 PM EST
    suo- Right. And by making an analogy between your towns "higher scores" and Cuba's, in responce to Peaches post, what were you attempting to convey?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#75)
    by John Mann on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 04:01:39 PM EST
    Slado reminisced:
    Baghdad Bob said the US would be crushed in the desert by mighty Iraq forces.
    I guess you haven't been paying much attention to what's happening in Iraq these days.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#76)
    by John Mann on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 04:12:40 PM EST
    Jim the Compassionate wrote:
    Rejoice that he is dying.
    Only someone with a heart as black as coal would write something like that, Jim.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#77)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 04:15:56 PM EST
    Fair enough Jondee, I do think it proves nada. I think there's a lot more to it than some simple metrics. You, apparently, think it is conclusive proof. So be it. Mel says to say hi, btw.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#78)
    by roger on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 04:18:13 PM EST
    I would never go to Cuba, as it is illegal. If I did go, I might notice the old, beautiful buildings in Havana. If I looked inside, I could see people living with no electricity, or running water, but hey, most of them have three good walls to their homes. I might notice that the food is pretty bad. I might notice MDs moonlighting as prostitutes to make ends meet. I may even notice that those nice big hotels for foreigners do not allow Cubans, unless they are staff. But of course, I would never go see for myself

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#79)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 04:32:09 PM EST
    Me:
    It is ridiculous that every time someone points out a murderous tyrant overseas otherwise rational people feel compelled to say "Yeah, but the US is worse."
    soccerdad:
    OK Bucko show us who said that.
    Well, debbiehamil at 9:54am, Johnny at 12:30pm, Peaches at 2:37pm, and pneumatikon at 2:54pm. Each notes that America has killed thousands, or that Castro's Cuba is "better than most other countries in the world" on human rights. (It should be noted that Peaches has been particularly disingenuous because it was he who claimed that most other countries are worse despite the fact that the very list of human rights abusers that he provides puts Cuba worse than the majority of countries in the world.) Once again, the observation that the US has killed thousands says nothing about Castro's crimes. One would assume that if you oppose and deplore the US's crimes, you'd do the same for Cuba's. For whatever reason, that's just not the case. And that's a damn shame. Murder is murder; torture is torture; false imprisonment is false imprisonment. Whether it's US or somebody else, all are to be deplored and the men, like Castro, responsible for them should be held accountable for their crimes.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 04:35:38 PM EST
    John Mann - Sometimes people are deserving of such comments. Castro does. BTW - Have you ever said anything nice about Israel? BTW - Re Baghdad Bob - You comment is nutso, but we understand that even though it is not true, you wish it were. Am I correct? Slado writes:
    But to argue that living in Cuba or even to suggest is better then living in the US seems crazy to me.
    True, but you must understand that Jondee will always defend your right to agree with him. Just don't you dare disagree though and you will automatically become ignorant, racist, etc.... Since he has no basic disagreement with the social changes that Castro did, he cannot see the damage they have done. The amazing thing is he can condemn the police for taking pictures of a demonstration in the US and ignore people being put in prison for years in Cuba.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#81)
    by roy on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 04:43:15 PM EST
    Long post here; the gist is "Cuba government too strong, Castro bad"... Living conditions, health care, literacy, these are all important. But Cuba's a small country in a weird political situation. It's an apple in a world of oranges; comparisons get useless real quick. So let's look at something more straightforward, more specifically tied to Castro himself. Let's look at the system of government he led. These are mostly excerpts from the Cuban constitution as translated here, focusing on issues which interest the modern American Left because that's what we all come here to argue about. I tried to find a few nice things to say, too, but it wasn't easy. 1: Gay marriage. The Cuban constitution defines marriage as "between a man and a woman". 2: The Draft. "The law regulates the military service which Cubans must do", which is a lot like here in the US, but they've implemented it by conscripting all Cuban boys for 2-3 years, starting at age 16-7 (sources vary). 3: Free artistic expression. The constitution says "there is freedom of artistic creation as long as its content is not contrary to the Revolution", meaning there is really no freedom of artistic creation. 4: Freedom of speech & press:
    Citizens have freedom of speech and of the press in keeping with the objectives of socialist society. Material conditions for the exercise of that right are provided by the fact that the press, radio, television, cinema, and other mass media are state or social property and can never be private property. This assures their use at exclusive service of the working people and in the interests of society.
    Meaning Cubans have an enshrined freedom to say and publish whatever they want, unless the government doesn't want them to. 5: Ditto. "The home is inviolable. Nobody can enter the home of another against his will, except in those cases foreseen by law.", meaning the home is inviolable, unless the government decides to violate it. Ditto mail, and electronic communications. 6: Freedom in general. Article 62, verbatim, and I smack myself in the head with the flat of my hand:
    None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism. Violations of this principle can be punished by law.
    Meaning all rights are subject to revocation if the government thinks it's in the government's interests to do so. 7: Education. High literacy, but "education is a function of the state and is free of charge" and "the state promotes the patriotic and communist education of the new generations and the training of children". So education can come only from the government, and it is overt & pervasive indoctrination. But they read good! (sources are a little dodgy on this point) 8: Discrimination. Articles 41-44 enshrine a host of anti-discrimination rules. As a libertarian, I have to object, but as authoritarian travesties go these ain't so bad. 9: Health care. "Everyone has the right to health protection and care", and the state must provide free medical, dental, and hospital care. Plenty of folks would like these rules here; the economic analysis of whether the Cuban system is sustainable is outside the scope of this rant. 10: Disenfranchisement. The government can deny the vote to Cubans who are "have committed a crime". Consider the list of government powers above; basically, you can vote unless the government decides you might vote against them. The question of whether elections are simply rigged is outside the scope of this rant. Any man who operated the machine described above, and pretended to have any legitimate authority over the people on the island, is a profoundly evil man.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 04:52:41 PM EST
    Yes Jim, except that your phoney moral argument falls to pieces because you've proven over and over again that moral standards are only for our enemies. We only have interests.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#83)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 05:03:20 PM EST
    Jondee, presumably you disagree and believe that moral standards should apply to both the US and her enemies, right?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#84)
    by John Mann on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 05:08:28 PM EST
    Jim wondered:
    BTW - Have you ever said anything nice about Israel? BTW - Re Baghdad Bob - You comment is nutso, but we understand that even though it is not true, you wish it were. Am I correct?
    I'll answer your questions when you answer the ones I asked you two days ago: What does the government of Canada censor me from seeing? ...and Where's the video you claimed shows Hezbollah using "human shields"?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 05:09:24 PM EST
    No. Just the U.S. And Israel. And the Shriners.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#86)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 05:34:18 PM EST
    Jondee the facts poor over you like water and still you maintain that you are dry. If you cannot admit that Cuba is a terrible place to live how can you be taken seriously? "Wrong, sir! Wrong! Under section 37B of the contract signed by him ... so you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir!" - Willy Wonka

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#87)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 07:36:45 PM EST
    Slado, Cuba is poor. Iraq is a hellhole. That you cannot make the distinction only reveals your ignorance and intolerance. I'm amazed at how afraid you are of one island country. Just curious, but have you ever been there? And truth is not beget by the number of comments you make. That anyone from this country would criticize any other nation for it's human rights abuses is laughablly hypocritical. G. Malor: Oh, and I love the idea that the reason leftist governments failed during the last half of the twentieth century is because the US "undermined them everywhere." I suppose leftist governments before the last half of the twentieth century were just bastions of happy workers and benevolent governments. What do you know about the actions of the CIA and US military in Chile in 1973? That's one of fourteen countries in which the US has taken an active involvement in overthrowing a democratically elected government since WWII. Now it's 15. It's all documented, including Phillip Agee's book "Inside the Company". But of course, Agee is a liar and a traitor (and lives in Cuba) so whatever he wrote cannot possibly be true. So you have your reality, and others have theirs. The point that people like you and PPJ and Slado are missing is that Cuba is most definitely NOT a violent country. Despite all of the rants from the right, the stats don't lie. On a per capita basis, the place is no where near as violent as urban USA. The people there are better educated and healthier. SUO, It's not genetics or the climate. How about it's because they work hard and don't eat like fat pigs?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#88)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:33:05 PM EST
    Perhaps a more open society would be possible in Cuba if it weren't for the repeated terrorist attacks, economic embargos and mercenary invasions sponsored by the United States against Cuba over the past 47 years. William Blum has documented some of them here: The Unforgivable Revolution It's a long read, but worth it. Excerpt: Castro revealed himself to be cut from a wholly different cloth. It was not to be business as usual in the Caribbean. He soon became outspoken in his criticism of the United States. He referred acrimoniously to the 60 years of American control of Cuba; how, at the end of those 60 years, the masses of Cubans found themselves impoverished; how the United States used the sugar quota as a threat. He spoke of the unacceptable presence of the Guantánamo base; and he made it clear enough to Washington that Cuba would pursue a policy of independence and neutralism in the cold war. It was for just such reasons that Castro and Che Guevara had forsaken the prosperous bourgeois careers awaiting them in law and medicine to lead the revolution in the first place. Serious compromise was not on their agenda; nor on Washington's, which was not prepared to live with such men and such a government. Soon, Castro and his regime were consigned to the "communist" slot, a word known to instantly cut off the flow of blood to the brain cells of the user.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:41:34 PM EST
    John Mann I understand you do not get FNC. Am I wrong? I haven't seen the video, yet. When I do I will post a link. I am sure it will be available, and I am sure you will make excuses. Now - May I have the info on when you said something nice about Israel? And do you deny that you don't want us to lose? et al - All of this arguing over who is the most healthy is like Dark Ages monks arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but let me take a shot. So what? Since they don't have cars, they walk. Since they have a limited diet, it may be more healthy. The question is, who would want to live like that? 99.999% of Americans would not. Those that do can move there. I am sure all the government forms will be in English... and all the voice mail trees will have "push 2 for English). Che - If you like I will post the link to Che killing the 14 year old boy. (a href="http://www.babalublog.com/archives/001544.html">Link et al - Cuba is a repressive society. That you can't find time to condemn its repression, yet scream about the US is just another example of your double standard.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#90)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:44:23 PM EST
    In terms of material goods and disposable income, Cuba is a poor country. In terms of caring for people's health and well being, it leaves the capitalist countries of the Caribbean and Central America in the dust. And, as we saw in the the 2005 hurricane season, they also take care of their people much better than the richest country in the world. While Cuba evacuated all the vulnerable populations from the threat of flooding and storm surge, the (literal) sink or swim social heirarchy of the U.S. was put on tragic display for all the world to see.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#91)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:46:44 PM EST
    shorter PPJ: people like being fat, lazy and stoopid...this proves Castro is no good

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#92)
    by jimcee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:48:20 PM EST
    Castro's demise would be just one step closer to the goal of freedom for the Cuban people. When his brother takes over there will be a govermental strong-arm push followed by a popular push-back. It will be interesting to see which side the Castro apologists take. It has to be hard defending the sham religion that is Communism.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#93)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 08:56:12 PM EST
    The point that people like you and PPJ and Slado are missing is that Cuba is most definitely NOT a violent country.
    Tell that to Giselle Alvarez, Age 4; Cindy Rodguez Age 2; Yaser Almanza, Age 11; Yolindys Rivero, Age 2; Angel Abreu Ruiz, Age 3; Jose Anaya, Age 3; Juan Gutierrez, Age 10; Eliecer Garcia, Age 11; Caridad Tacoronte; Age 4. All murdered by the state police on July 13, 1994. Tell that to Jose Manuel Escobedo, Ana Maria Espinoza, and Manuel Melian. All were involved with anti-communist movements, all had crowds attack their homes with rocks and bottles in 2001. Tell that to Juan Carlos Herrera Acosta, imprisoned in Camaguay. He hasn't seen sunlight in over a year. Political prisoners Arnaldo Ramos Lauzurique and Lamberto Hernandez Plana, also at Camaguay, have been repeatedly beaten by the prison guards. In 2005 Dr. Darsi Ferrer was attacked in his home by four men. They cut him with a knife, beat him, and threatened to kill him. Independent journalist Oscar Mario Gonzalez has been repeatedly detained and interrogated by police for writing articles critical of the regime. He has also been denied a visa so he can visit his daughter. The list is endless. Oh, but we all know that Cuba "is not a violent country", right Che? BTW, I'm still waiting to see any explanation at all why such vociferous advocates for rights in this country (I mean you guys) don't care about Cuba's rights problems. (Well, except for Jondee. He's already told us that he doesn't care about people in other sovereign states; they're not his problem.)

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#94)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 09:06:56 PM EST
    Che - If you like I will post the link to Che killing the 14 year old boy. (a href="http://www.babalublog.com/archives/001544.html">Link You and I both know I've seen it. Do you do that just for effect? Cheap.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#95)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 09:07:03 PM EST
    jimcee...if you think such a "pushback" exists anywhere besides Miami Beach I have three words for ya: Bay of Pigs Oh yes, I would love to see you try to spread your capitalist religion there at the Bay of Pigs. Not to mention to the landless peasants in Honduras, Costa Rica, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, etc etc etc. Now that would be a fine sight, indeed. Go and preach it, brother.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#96)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 09:12:30 PM EST
    Yes, Gabe...the guy who looooves to see Lebanese civilians slaughtered en masse by his favorite apartheid regime is going to berate Cubans for throwing rocks at the house of a CIA agent. How swell is that?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimcee on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 09:59:07 PM EST
    Ernest, I think that if the people of Cuba were allowed to choose for themselves as to what standard of living they would prefer it would be the one that was allowed by being a liberal democracy as opposed to a communist dictatorship. If they became a socialist democracy that would still be a far cry better than a totalitarian communist dictatorship driven by post WWII cold war rivalries. There will always be poor people and there will always be those who refuse to be poor. That the Castro regime, as in all communist regimes, has tried to create equality by suppressing those who refuse to be poor. It is hard for a gov't to create equal wealth without destroying the class that creates that wealth. Instead of making everyone's life better they choose to make the creative classes exsistence worse. As an example Canada is a liberal democracy whose population is three times bigger than Cuba's but the basic benefits are much better despite the nonsense that Peaches has floated here. Something about liberal democracies brings out the best in people whereas in dictatorships? Well not so much.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#98)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Aug 01, 2006 at 10:31:39 PM EST
    ...if the people of Cuba were allowed to choose for themselves as to what standard of living they would prefer it would be the one that was allowed by being a liberal democracy...
    jimcee, the fact is that the Miami exiles and their friendly U.S. government have not been looking to install a liberal democracy in Cuba for that past 47 years. They want the casinos, the big sugar plantations and the friendly Banana Republic to come back. But unfortunately for them, the people of Cuba rejected their desires in a pretty convincing fashion on those beaches back in '61. I have a feeling they will do the same today. I also have a feeling we may find this out soon enough. This administration's grasp on history appears no better than yours, so it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#99)
    by roger on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 04:05:23 AM EST
    I lived in Miami for years. People keep coming here from Cuba. Nobody (except Agee) escapes TO Cuba.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#100)
    by John Mann on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 06:06:39 AM EST
    Jim wrote:
    I understand you do not get FNC. Am I wrong?
    Yes, you're wrong. Fox News is available from Canadian satellite providers. Speaking of censorship, is al-Jazeera available in the States?
    I haven't seen the video, yet. When I do I will post a link. I am sure it will be available, and I am sure you will make excuses. Now - May I have the info on when you said something nice about Israel?
    I'm not sure what you mean by "nice". I am absolutely opposed to Israeli policies regarding their treatment of Palestinians and their aggression. Having said that, Israel is not going away, and I want them to find a way to live in peace with their neighbors.
    And do you deny that you don't want us to lose?
    Of course I do. I want the U.S. to get out of the Middle East so that no one on either side suffers any more because of U.S. aggression.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 06:19:14 AM EST
    Che - No, I do it to remind us all that Che was a killer, and that Che existed because of Castro. Link Of course promoting healthy diets through starvation justifies it, eh Ernesto writes:
    They want the casinos, the big sugar plantations and the friendly Banana Republic to come back.
    Who is "they?" You have no names and no proof, just out of date claims. And who cares why people want to be fat, eat unhealthy, etc. In a FREE society that is their right. John Mann - Okay, I'll put you down for nothing nice about Israel and happy that, in your mind, US loosing. BTW - It takes both sides wanting peace to get peace. Concentrate on that concept.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#102)
    by John Mann on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 07:00:35 AM EST
    John Mann - Okay, I'll put you down for nothing nice about Israel and happy that, in your mind, US loosing.
    Whatever. BTW, Jim, you didn't answer my question about your government censoring what you see, so I'll ask again: is al-Jazeera tv available in the States?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#103)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 07:06:49 AM EST
    Gabriel, You are making things up unless you can supply the links for me to read. This is not a fictional website. If you cannot link, then just type in the website. But until then you're just typing BS. The US is funding the resistance and they make no secret of the fact that they will actively push for the overthrow of the Cuban government. This is a violation of international law. When Cuba arrested 75 spies in the 90's, they were carrying a total of $100,000 in cash in US dollars. On average that's over $1000 each. Now who in Cuba carries around that kind of cash? Modst have since been released or had their sentences significantly reduced. In contrast, the US continues to hold 5 cubans for spying even after a federal court threw out their convictions. Is that the democracy you are hoping to install in Cuba? Slado, You haven't answered my question. I'll ask it to all of the supposed experts on Cuba here: Have you ever been to Cuba? I will readily admit that I have not. I have met many who have gone there for visits and for medical conferences (sanctioned reluctantly by the US Treasury) and never have I once heard of any evidence of repression. I've been following the events in Cuba for 30 years. Most of you just parrot the party line without one bonafide reference. Jim's story about Che killing a kid is a total fabrication. If anyone was killed after the revolution it was because they murdered for the Bautista regime and deserved what they got. More hypocrisy from the murdering RWNJ's.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#105)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 08:29:34 AM EST
    As an example Canada is a liberal democracy whose population is three times bigger than Cuba's but the basic benefits are much better despite the nonsense that Peaches has floated here.
    Jimcee, Did I saay something about Canada? I don't remember saying anything about Canada? Were we talking about Canada? I am sorry to challenge your worldview. Cuba is a communist dictatorship. And communist dictatorships in the third world have to mean that its citizens are living under horrible conditions according to the American myth. Unfortunately statistics and facts do not bear this out. Canada is not an appropriate comparison for a numbe rof resaons, just as European nations are not. If you want a country to compare Cuba to and it is to be relevant, you have to choose a latin American country, if you want any credibility. Disagree? Please explain.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#106)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 08:48:04 AM EST
    Che, here are some helpful links (or directions to links) describing the VIOLENCE of the Cuban government and many Cuban people. Google can provide plenty more if you're interested. Also, it's very cute that you just refuse to believe without any attempt to find the truth on your own. "Reality-based" all the way, my friend. Look here for info on the "March 13" tugboat sinking which resulted in the deaths of 41 people, including the children I listed in a previous comment. Also, Reporteres sans frontieres has detailed info on Cuba's offenses against press freedom and free association. (I'm afraid to provide a second link for fear that this comment will be consigned to moderation-oblivion. Google Reporters sans frontieres and Cuba, you'll find it.) Also, the state department keeps Country Reports on Human Rights Practices. Just go to the state department home page and search for "Country Reports on Human Rights Practices." Cuba is listed for the years 1993-2005. Pick one and read it. Each is horrifying.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#107)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 08:58:42 AM EST
    Peaches, why are you lying? At 11:42am yesterday, you provided this link to the Guardian's special report on human rights abusers. You were noting that Cuba did not make the top twenty human rights abusers. At 2:37pm yesterday, you claim:
    Castro Human rights records are not clean. I am not excusing them. However, they are far better than most countries in the world
    I noted that you were being disingenuous because the very information you provided shows that Cuba is worse than most nations on human rights abuses. It is beyond me why, but this morning at 9:29am, you claim that your "list" said nothing about Cuba. Well, you are mistaken. Click on your link. It goes to a Guardian special report with detailed information on human rights abusers. The third link in the body of the report goes to the "Table of rights abuses". Click through and you will find that Cuba is the 42nd worst abuser out of 195 countries. IOW, "the very list of human rights abusers that you provide puts Cuba worse than the majority of countries in the world." Reading comprehension, folks. Of course, despite the guardian's report, Che would still like to deny that Cuba is a violent country. Keep the faith, man!!!

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#108)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 09:18:43 AM EST
    SUO, It's not genetics or the climate. How about it's because they work hard and don't eat like fat pigs?
    Works for me.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#109)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 09:35:44 AM EST
    Gabriel - I have to laugh. Why do I think that we could wait till doomsday before you would ever make an issue of the human rights records of some of the other nations on that list? Something about lies of ommission and hypocrisy occurs to me.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#110)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 09:49:25 AM EST
    Nobody (except Agee) escapes TO Cuba.
    Except for some medical students, too poor to go to school here.
    "I wanted to be a doctor, but I wasn't sure how to get into medicine. I had decent grades, but I didn't have any money, and even applying to medical school cost a lot."
    Kinda makes you proud to be an Ammurihcan, huh?.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#111)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 09:50:47 AM EST
    Peaches, either you missed the identical, mirror-image, ";-)" in my response to the ";-)" in your post, are really touchy, are having a bad day, or are kidding around. I prefer to believe one of the latter two. btw, I prefer to call it "off the top of my head" than "pulling things out of my a$$" ;-);-);-) I posit that comparing the US's literacy rate to that of Cuba is like comparing apples to oranges. The statement is so patently obvious that I can only conclude that you're kidding around by disagreeing with it. Again. btw, the UN via Wikipedia says our literacy rates are higher than Cuba's.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#112)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 09:56:24 AM EST
    Jondee, if you want to join the arguments instead of throwing around ad hominems, that'd be great.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#113)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:16:39 AM EST
    Peaches, why are you lying?
    Gabreil, I was not lying. However, I was not diligent. I did not read the whole list. I did a search on human rights abusers, because Slado said Cuba was the second worst violator in the world next to North Korea. A quick check revealed that they did not make a list of the top twenty according to the gaurdian link. I never checked beyond twenty. You did. Congratulations. As you say Cuba is number 42. However, they share this spot with 8 other countries. Cuba has a score of 11, meaning 11 violations that fall under human rights. The United States was further down the list at 87 with a score of 8.5. That is a separation of 2.5 violations. The separation between cuba and the worst offender is much larger (Congo had a score of 24). As I said before, Cuba is not innocent by any means, but the characterization of them as anywhere near North Korea or Iraq under Saddam is not very accurate. They do suffer from some, pehaps many, deprivation of private individual rights. I still would rather live in Cuba than most latin American countries, however. SUO, I apologize. I was not kidding, just reading carelessly and typing fast so I can get some work done in my real employment also. I missed the ;). And I am not using my usual censorship of my responses due to less time today and yesterday. I am also a bit sensitive on this subject, because people are so overreactive to anything that falls under leftism, socialism or communist heading. We have way too high of opinions of ourselves in my opinion and I am sure now Gabriel, Slado, BB and Jim will accuse me of hating America. Thanks for the link on literacy of Cuba vs. US literacy rates. Life expectanct is also comparable between the two countries. The main point I wish to stress is that the two countries have comparable rates for most indicators of living standards despite Cuba having much lower per capita GDP. This is not suppose to happen and does not reflect current thinking in economic theory which believes higher per capita GDP means better living standards. The fact that Cuba is an anomoly means we should study it closer and see what the heck they are doing right.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#114)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:18:53 AM EST
    Who is "they?" You have no names and no proof, just out of date claims.
    "They" are the big crime bosses that fled with Batista and settled in Miami, aka the gusanos, who have waged a 47 year terror campaign along with the U.S. government to overthrow the Cuban government and bring back the good old days of high illiteracy and infant mortality rates. I have provided some documentation of their deeds, which are not out of date, but still ongoing through such organizations as the NED. Your tax dollars at work, as it were. As for press freedom and civil liberties in Cuba...do you really think installing the Miami exiles back into power would bring improvement? Here is a good example of "freedom of the press" Miami-style.
    And who cares why people want to be fat, eat unhealthy, etc. In a FREE society that is their right.
    Yes it is your right to be ignorant of as many issues as you want. But you don't have to excercise it so damn vigorously do you? ;)

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#115)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:27:02 AM EST
    Gabriel, I think we can both agree that violence is a bad thing. But let's keep things in context. Compared to the U.S. and a certain mid-east apartheid government that you are partial to (which used terrorism in it's struggle to become a nation), Cuba is a model of restraint. This is of course, out of necessity as the U.S. would invade them in an instant if they responded to the numerous terrorist attacks coming from our government. That is, after all, the whole point of our provocations.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#116)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:28:45 AM EST
    The fact that Cuba is an anomoly means we should study it closer and see what the heck they are doing right.
    Fair enough Peaches.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#117)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:29:33 AM EST
    No more of an "ad hominem" than accusing Peaches of lying, Gabe. Apparently some people here have all kinds of latitude to engage in that kind of thing, just as some countries have all kinds of latitude when it comes to human rights violations.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#118)
    by roger on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:31:16 AM EST
    Ernesto, Unqualified (by US standards) students get free training to become a doctor, if they will be allowed to let themselves be used as propaganda. Sounds like an escape from political repression to me! I am not thrilled with the Miami community either. I dont think that the cubans who stayed really want them to come back and run things anyway.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#119)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:39:26 AM EST
    roy, btw, although no one's responded to your 5:43 PM comment, don't think it hasn't hit home.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#120)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:49:59 AM EST
    Unqualified (by US standards) students...
    Unqualified how? Because they don't have enough money to get into school? I guess if you are used to using that as a standard then you are proud of the system that creates those conditions. Which is what I thought.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#121)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:53:35 AM EST
    Roger - In keeping with the reputed "leveling" effect of communism, maybe Cuba accepting unqualified medical students strikes a balance with some U.S universities that accept unqualified applicants with "strong legacies" to get training to become statesmen and diplomats. Btw, When did Cuba ever do anything positive that wasn't for propaganda purposes? According to the some, it's the only reason Cubans brake for animals.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#122)
    by roger on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:54:33 AM EST
    Ernesto, The article states that you dont need a college degree to get into the program. US med schools require a college degree with LOTS of science courses, good grades, and test scores. From YOUR article, none of this is required in Cuba. So yes, they are unqualified students, academically, not financially. BTW- reading your comments in this thread, and the ones concerning Israel- I have to ask, are you employed by the government of any nation?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#123)
    by roger on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 10:58:44 AM EST
    Jondee, Cuba's system actually was common in communist states. In the Soviet Union, med school was a "trade". Low pay, low respect, mostly women, no college required. 5 years of a pre-med high school, and right into med school. Work in a factory is a "good" job in a communist country, work as a doctor is not nearly as respected.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#124)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 11:11:36 AM EST
    Peaches, I agree that Cuba isn't the worst place to live in Latin America. Still, I'm much more partial to Mexico (where I can worship as I choose, assembly as I will, and write anything I damn well please). Forgive me for the lying comment. It gets a little wearying when people say things like "Cuba is not violent" or that I am a liar and a hypocrite. I got a little punchy. Sorry. Ernesto:
    I think we can both agree that violence is a bad thing. But let's keep things in context. Compared to the U.S. and a certain mid-east apartheid government that you are partial to (which used terrorism in it's struggle to become a nation), Cuba is a model of restraint.
    Oh hell. I thought we'd gotten past this already. From my earlier comment: The fact that US actions have resulted in deaths does not absolve Castro from the deaths he has caused. It is ridiculous that every time someone points out a murderous tyrant overseas otherwise rational people feel compelled to say "Yeah, but the US is worse." As if it matters. A murderer is a murderer and we should not be championing one just because he's "less evil" than the US. (Speaking of, soccerdad, what happened? No response to my 5:32pm post of yesterday.)

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#125)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 11:16:34 AM EST
    roy, btw, although no one's responded to your 5:43 PM comment, don't think it hasn't hit home.
    I missed that one earlier...here's my response: 1. Gay marriage: looks like no difference between Castro and Bush on this one. Oh well. 2. The draft: I like the idea of a draft, as long as there are no loopholes. Everyone should be forced to see what the military is like from the inside. It's an eye-opener, that's for sure, and in the long run it will make you a better person. 3. Artistic Expression: No difference between Castro and Bush on this one. Oh well. 4. Freedom of the press: See items 1 and 3 above. I like this part: "Material conditions for the exercise of that right are provided by the fact that the press, radio, television, cinema, and other mass media are state or social property and can never be private property. This assures their use at exclusive service of the working people and in the interests of society." Do we really have press freedom in the U.S.? In my opinion your ability to be heard is directly proportional to the amount of finances you have. Are we better served by corporations owning the major media? I think we have a long way to go before we can claim pure freedom of the press. 5. See items 1, 3 and 4. Bush would love to make this clause part of the US Constitution. He already is implementing this as a matter of policy. 6. This provision is akin to the sedition laws in any country. Recall that the Communist Party of the USA was outlawed by the US congress in 1954. Cuba still lives in the Cold War mentality because the state of war between us and them continues. This might change if the embargo ended and relations were normalized. Both Castro and the old guard Batista henchmen in Miami have to die before ths happens, unfortunately. 7. Yes, the youth are eduacted/indoctrinated. Be real though and admit that the same things happen in all U.S. public and private schools. Now we have Ronald McDonald teaching elementary students about nutrition! 8 and 9. Not sure how either of these makes Castro a monster. They sound like good things to me. 10. The elections should be open to non-Communist candidates. Maybe they will now that Hugo Chavez has shown that socialist reforms can be accomplished without massive subversion by the 2 percent of the population that owns everything. Overall, I don't like authoritarian socialist regimes. I lived under one for 3 years when I was in the U.S. army. But they are a damn site better than what they replaced in Cuba and what the people in Washington and Miami want to bring back. And the Cuban people know this.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#126)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 11:20:14 AM EST
    The fact that US actions have resulted in deaths does not absolve Castro from the deaths he has caused.
    Then you must agree that the slaughter of Lebanese civilians by Israel is not absolved by anything anyone else has done. Right? Right?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#127)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 11:54:05 AM EST
    Read some of the interviews with the frothing-at-the-mouth Latin America domino theory types from the fifties and early sixties, and you'll find a group as fantatical, violent and ruthless in the pursuit of the "protection of U.S holdings" as any mass murdering Bolshevik was in the pursuit of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Take a quick check at why ppj's "American heros" North, Secord, & co. are persona non grata in Costa Rica for instance. Think about the Kennedy "Wanted For Treason" posters that circulated in Dallas. Or how this country was flooded with cocaine (mostly coming through contra country in Florida) around the time that black-ops in CA and SA were being stepped up. Yeah, look over there at those terrible godless Cubans.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#128)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 12:54:12 PM EST
    Then you must agree that the slaughter of Lebanese civilians by Israel is not absolved by anything anyone else has done. Right? Right?
    Of course.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#129)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 01:34:56 PM EST
    Roger, the fact is that Cuba is training doctors to help alleviate the desparate health care needs of people all over the world, including large poverty-stricken areas of the richest country: the United States of America. The article also points out that politicians in THIS COUNTRY had to appeal to Castro to get the program going. How sick is it, that they could get a program going in Cuba and not the U.S.? Just one more example how money trumps the well being of the populace on these shores. And that's what Washington and Miami want to export back to Cuba. excerpt from the article: That day, 26-year-old Eduardo Medina was at his parents' house in New York, listening to Castro's speech on the radio. "Castro announces that Cuba has started a new medical school and has invited students from all over Latin America to come, train, and return to treat the poor in their countries. Then he starts quoting figures about poor communities in the U.S. 'We'll be more than happy to educate American medical students,' he says, 'if they'll commit to going home to take care of the poor.' The place went nuts. I'm standing in my basement saying, 'Yes! Yes! Yes!'"

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#130)
    by roger on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 01:45:13 PM EST
    Ernesto, I would blame the AMA, if anyone

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#131)
    by jimcee on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 05:03:03 PM EST
    Peaches, Actually no you didn't bring up Canada I did as an example of a semi-socialist state that allows its citizens the rights of free men. In other words it is a liberal democracy whereas Cuba is an autocratic dictatorship and Canada is a much better country Cuba today. The difference is that when you allow people to have a say in thier gov'ts affairs, such as Canada does, it makes oppressive dictatorships such as Cuba pale in comparison. As far as literacy is concerned that is all well and good unless you can't read and write what you choose to and not what gov't officials tell you what you can read and write. As far as longevity is concerned that is great if you don't mind living a long time under a repressive regime. It is sort of like going to Hell for eternity.

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#132)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 08:18:57 PM EST
    Gabriel, Read your link on the boat sinking. So people steal a rickety old tug, cram over 70 people onto it and hit the high seas. The Cubans try to stop them. The boat sinks. The part about the water hoses is conjecture and bitterness. The other link is via the US State Dept. so I will not waste any more of my time with this garbage. Ever been there?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#133)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Aug 02, 2006 at 08:32:07 PM EST
    The fact that US actions have resulted in deaths does not absolve Castro from the deaths he has caused That's not the point and you know it. It's convenient to suddenly not keep score when the numbers weigh against you. Just how are we better? The only place in Cuba where no one gets a trail is at GITMO! How Ironic. BTW your litany of attacks on cubans reads just like the page 3 crime reports of my local newspaper. I'm still waiting to see any explanation at all why such vociferous advocates for rights in this country (I mean you guys) don't care about Cuba's rights problems Because it's not as bad as you say. I asked Slado and he disappeared. Gabriel, have you ever been there?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#134)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 02:43:22 PM EST
    Jimcee,
    The difference is that when you allow people to have a say in thier gov'ts affairs, such as Canada does, it makes oppressive dictatorships such as Cuba pale in comparison.
    This is true, Jimcee. But it doesn't answer my question. The cuban people never had the opportunity to develop a democracy like Canada. Two completely different histories. Cuba could look like Panama, Haiti, Equador or some other Latin American Country, if it developed on a different track from Canada. Canada was settled by white Europeans..Anglos...the good guys...see. Cuba is a spanish settlement. For whatever reason, We interfere with these settlements so we can exploit the people and resources. Castro didn't want that. So, he went the communist route and his people are poor in material wealth but rich in life. How did that happen I wonder?

    Re: Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery (none / 0) (#135)
    by roger on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 03:09:46 PM EST
    Che, The people of Cuba are very poor, and they mostly blame Castro for it. To suggest that they like Fidel is laughable. Have you been there? Doctors moonlight as prostitutes. Cubans are not allowed in the "Tourist only" clubs. Cuban food in Miami is much better than the food in Havana. Many people have no running water. Have you been there?

    Fidel Castro Steps Aside Following Surgery | 134 comments (134 topical)