home

Condi Rice Visits Beirut

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 08:48:21 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has embarked on her trip to the Middle East. To the surprise of many, her first stop was Beirut.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice made a surprise stop in the besieged Lebanese capital today to try to prop up the government of Prime Minister Fouad Siniora and to reassure Arab allies who have become increasingly impatient with the Israeli bombardment, which has killed close to 400 people, mostly Lebanese civilians.....Besides Mr. Siniora, Ms. Rice was to meet with Shiite members of Lebanon's parliament who have close to ties to Hezbollah, the militant group that is Israel's target, aides said.

The Bush Administration doesn't want a cease-fire now. First, Hezbollah has to be taken down. Israel wants the return of its soldiers and the dismantling of Hezbolla before a cease-fire. Then, it says it may consider a peace-keeping force, something it always has opposed in the past.

Israel is not randomly bombing civilians. They are warning civilians to evacuate so they can hit their military targets:

Israel has been warning the civilian population of the south to move north to avoid getting hurt. "The reason for the evacuation of the population is to leave us open space and an open area to hit military and terrorist targets and not to deal with the problem of civilians," General Shachar said.

Israeli military officials say they have found thousands of Katyusha rockets and other missiles hidden in well-camouflaged underground bunkers and also in mosques, hospitals and schools. They say Iran is trying to send fresh supplies of ammunition and rockets to Lebanon through Syria.

Palestineans are firing rockets into Israel as well:

In the Gaza Strip, Palestinian militants fired a dozen smaller Qassam rockets into southern Israel on Sunday without causing serious damage. The attacks suggested that earlier reports of a Palestinian Authority attempt to broker a unilateral cease-fire among the militants had failed.

For its part, Hezbollah is threatening increased attacks on Israel.

In Tehran Monday, the Associated Press reported, Hezbollah's representative in Iran struck a defiant tone, warning that his Islamic militant group plans to widen its attacks on Israel until "no place" is safe for Israelis. Hossein Safiadeen also reinforced earlier threats by Hezbollah leader Hasan Nasrallah to widen the scope of attacks, which have included unprecedented missile strikes deep into northern Israel.

"We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis. There will be no place they are safe," Safiadeen told a conference that included the Tehran-based representative of the Palestinian group Hamas and the ambassadors from Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinian Authority. "You will see a new Middle East in the way of Hezbollah and Islam, not in the way of Rice and Israel," he said, according to AP.

More on that here.

Britain's Tony Blair says a cease-fire is unworkable "because Israel would still be vulnerable to attacks by Hezbollah."

Will any Arab nations ever agree to take down Hezbollah? Can Israel do it by itself? Should it keep trying?

< Sen. Specter and His Warrantless NSA Surveillance | Ned Lamont's Statement on Israel >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Condi Rice Visits Beirut | 109 comments (109 topical)
    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#1)
    by theologicus on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 09:36:32 AM EST
    Israel is not randomly bombing civilians. They are warning civilians to evacuate so they can hit their military targets Beautiful.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 09:49:28 AM EST
    What we were supposed to learn in kindergarten is really true: violence is no solution. Anyone who thinks that it's possible for the Israelis to take down Hizbollah, or for the Americans to quell the Iraqis, or for the Russians to take out the Chechens, or fill in the blanks - should take a look at history. But violence seems to be what people are all about. The irony, of course - this is about religion. Religions from the same root, at that. People are nuts. God only knows what it would take for us to stop hating each other.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#3)
    by Punchy on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 09:56:20 AM EST
    Israel is not randomly bombing civilians. No..they're just randomly killing them with bombs. See the big difference? They're not being bombed, they're just dying from explosives dropped/shot from the air. That makes it ALL OK...Thanks TL.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#4)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 10:32:12 AM EST
    What is sorely missing from this story is a historical context. Hezbollah was founded to drive Israel out of Lebanon. They are a political organization as well as military, and their political success is based in large part on being the group that was most successful in standing up to Israel's scorched earth policies in Lebanon. Similar to what we see from our occupation in Iraq, Israel's indiscriminate violence is Hezbollah's best recruiting tool. Get ready for another long and bloody conflict paid for by the American taxpayer.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 10:44:32 AM EST
    et al - Would some of you super bright people tell me how Israel can attack Hezbollah without killing civilians? Now in your answer you MUST take into consideration that Hezbollah as intergrated itself into the civilian population and infrastructure. Oh, you can't? No surprise. So I'll just put you down for "Israel deserves to be attacked and cannot respond."

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#7)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 10:55:01 AM EST
    400 dead civilians and counting and PPJ calls it "responding". Nice.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#8)
    by Peaches on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 10:55:13 AM EST
    Jim, What a silly man you are. Put us down as however, you prefer. It is meaningless. To answer your question, Israel cannot attack Hezbellah without killing civilains. Israel can take more precautions to limit the deaths of civilains. It could also limit the destruction of much needed infrastructure - highways, roads, plants, etc. THe dilemma Israel faces, that you wish to ignore, is how they can limit the blowback from their assault. How are they going to win over moderate muslems, so they are not persuaded that Israel has no regard for them or the future of their children and therefore preventing future attacks against Israel? Israel was attacked. Their response may prove to make Israel even more insecure in the future.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#9)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 10:57:39 AM EST
    So I'll just put you down for "Israel deserves to be attacked and cannot respond."
    israel wasn't attacked, 2 soldiers were kidnapped. Targeting ambulances, hospitals, bridges, power and water and civilian neighborhoods is not 'responding', it is collective punishment an a war crime. The US should unilaterally declare a cease fire, stop giving $$ and weapons to israel and install a UN peacekeeping force and negotiations. Or at least stop throwing gas on the fire.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#10)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 11:35:54 AM EST
    From my perspective here in Beirut, watching American-supplied Israeli jets smash this country to smithereens, what she describes as "birth pangs" look much more like a wicked hangover from a decades-old American orgy of diplomatic intoxication with the enticements of pro-Israeli politics. We shall find out in the coming years if indeed a new Middle East is being born, or--as I suspect--we are witnessing the initial dying gasps of the Western-made political order that has defined this region and focused primarily on Israeli national dictates for most of the past half a century. The way to a truly new and stable Middle East is to apply policies that deliver equal rights to all concerned, not to favor Israel as having greater rights than Arabs.
    emphasis mine link

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#11)
    by theologicus on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 11:36:26 AM EST
    Dispatch frm Lebanon (excerpt):
    Over the last week, I interviewed dozens of refugees on both the western border of Syria with Lebanon, as well as the northern border of Lebanon with Syria. They were reporting atrocities. They were reporting war crimes carried out by the Israeli military in Southern Lebanon and in Southern Beirut, which is where naturally most of these refugees came from. There are hoards of these refugees. Right now, there's at least over a quarter of a million of them that have come into Syria thus far. And most of those that I spoke with were all saying the same thing, and that was that it was widespread indiscriminate bombing in villages. Cars full of people fleeing those villages were being attacked by warplanes as they tried to leave. One man told me of a hospital that he saw with his own eyes being bombed by warplanes in South Beirut. Another spoke of seeing an ambulance being targeted by air strikes itself. It's really a catastrophic situation as far as the refugees go. People have left, many of them literally with nothing but the clothes on their backs and what they had in their pockets at the time. So, they are really left with nothing and nowhere to go. And so, there's a burgeoning crisis not just within Lebanon, but it is, of course, spilling over into Syria at a very large level.
    One notes a strange lack of gratitude among these civilians for the warning they may or may not have received from Israel.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#12)
    by theologicus on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 11:54:28 AM EST
    Too High a Price
    With the spreading violence in Lebanon and Gaza, the Israeli doctrine of absolute security and massive retaliation--the notion that any attack or threat of attack on Israel will be met with a disproportionate response--is again proving counterproductive to Israel's own security as well as to the larger stability of the region. It makes no sense for Israel to destroy the civil infrastructure of the Palestinians and of Lebanon in response to the kidnapping of its soldiers, or to further weaken the capacity of the governments of Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority while at the same trying to hold them accountable for the actions of groups and militias they cannot reasonably control. This collective punishment of the Palestinian and Lebanese people is not only inhumane and should be condemned but also leads to more radicalization and to more chaos. ...


    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#13)
    by ding7777 on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 12:05:05 PM EST
    In 1970, Israel rejected Fulbright's proposal for UN peace-keeping troops in the West Bank and the Golan Heights. So why would Israel now accept Bush's proposal of a peace-keeping coalition?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#14)
    by chew2 on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 12:19:34 PM EST
    TL, feebly repeats Israeli self serving propaganda.
    Israel is not randomly bombing civilians. They are warning civilians to evacuate so they can hit their military targets:
    It's not random, it's on purpose. When you level whole neighborhoods and villages on the grounds that some weapons might be stored there, then you know you will likely kill civilians. That's the nature of high explosive bombs.
    While Israeli missiles continue to strike vehicles full of desperate refugees fleeing their villages in south Lebanon, Israel is also accused of targeting a large number of homes and office buildings used only by civilians. Researchers for Human Rights Watch, the New York-based non-governmental organisation, say they have compiled details on the deaths of more than a quarter of the roughly 400 Lebanese killed by the air strikes Israel launched a fortnight ago. "We've investigated the results of air campaigns in Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq, and the pattern here is different. They're hitting civilians time and time again," Peter Bouckaert, a long-serving Human Rights Watch investigator, said.
    No hiding place for civilians caught in air strikes The Israeli's set unreasonablly short deadlines and then continue attacking cars, station wagons and mini-buses when the population attempts to evacuate.
    A day after Israel's deadline for people to leave their homes and flee north of the Litani river, roads which in ordinary times wind lazily through tobacco fields and banana groves have been turned into highways of death. Plumes of smoke rise in the distance, and the road in front of us offers up signs of closer peril: car wrecks, still smoking after Israeli strikes, and abandoned vehicles with shattered rear windows.
    Blasted by a missile on the road to safety If the Israeli's truly wanted to avoid civilian casualties then they would attack Hezbollah by ground assault. But that may be too dangerous or too costly, so they will drop bombs from afar, knowing that they will kill trapped civilians.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#15)
    by chew2 on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 12:52:41 PM EST
    TL
    Will any Arab nations ever agree to take down Hezbollah? Can Israel do it by itself? Should it keep trying?
    Colonel Pat Lang, a cogent military analyst, says no, unless they undertake a bloody ground assault.
    -Air Power and artillery will not decisively defeat Hizballah or force it to withdraw from rocket range of Israel. -The Lebanese government and army are not what the Israelis have once again dreamt of and they should have known that. The policy that Israel is following is truly a triumph of hope over experience. -An international force that will fight Hizballah in the south to disarm it is a pipe dream. Who will do that? The only realistic candidate would be France in terms of military capacity. This would be a major irony of history. Bottom Line Advice for Israel: Occupy the ground or expect to suffer the effects of failure."
    Now, I "get it Colonel Ralph Peters, a rabid right wing military analyst thinks Israel is losing the war. You can't win by air bombing no matter how many civilians you kill. Even if Israel invades, it probably cannot destroy Hezbollah completely without destroying the Lebanese polity and society, or prevent it from rearming. It will simply go back to guerilla warfare. So some negotiated settlement is the wisest course. But how does the US or Israel negotiate with them without loosing face?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#16)
    by ras on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 01:05:27 PM EST
    [Israel] says it may consider a peace-keeping force, something it always has opposed in the past.
    It may consider a NATO-led peacekeeping force. The UN has no credibility in this regard, and rightly so.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#17)
    by theologicus on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 01:32:39 PM EST
    Suggestins for Condi
    ... Last Thursday, [former Carter Administration National Security Adviser Zbigniew] Brzezinski gave a fascinating talk ... where he labeled Israel's ferocious military bombing of Lebanon "dogged, heavy-handed, politically unproductive and morally wrong." "What Israel is doing today in Lebanon is in effect the killing of hostages," Brzezinski said.
    TL apparently disagrees. In any case here's what Brezinski recommends:
    Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice should pull a Kissinger, Brzezinski said, and "stay in the region" until the fighting stops. To that end, Brzezinski offered five practical suggestions for how the Bush Administration might quell the violence. 1. Recreate viability for the Palestinians by working with Hamas. 2. Talk to the Syrians, with or through the French. 3. Talk to the Lebanese government, so they don't just appear as victims screaming for help. 4. Talk to Hezbollah through Syria. 5. Negotiate the sequential release of prisoners between Israel and Hezbollah. ...


    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 01:50:12 PM EST
    Peaches - Just when I thought you could make a comment with out an insult, you fail the test... oh well, another icon bites the dust. The answer is that Israel cannot destroy Hezbollah without killing many civilians. Hezbollak knows that, and has deliberately placed themselves where this will happen. Now the civilian population may figure this out, or they may not. My guess is that they already know it, but to say it is too die, now. Or to keep quiet and maybe not get killed. Guess which one is chosen the most? Their are several answers. First, Israel could kill enough people, destroy enough infrastructure to receive an unconditional surrender. They would then incorporate Lebanon into Israel and live happily ever after, or at last until Syria, Egypt, et al, attack. Or, the west, acting as a group, could wipe out the petty dictators and terrorist sponsoring countries in the ME, establish some flavor of democracy and secular governments that will finish the terrorists. Or I could win the lottery. Aint gonna happen. Too logical, and far to inexpensive in both human lives and gold, to do it now. It'll take another SERIOUS terrorist attack, or two, before we come to realize that the Left has been blowing smoke up our butts and that the ME as currently constructed can't be allowed to exist.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#19)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 01:57:45 PM EST
    Just when I thought you could make a comment with out an insult,
    typical, holding others to standards he violates.
    The answer is that Israel cannot destroy Hezbollah without killing many civilians.
    That's the definition of a war crime. They have no business invading another country that didn't attack them.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 02:07:28 PM EST
    ppj says:
    It'll take another SERIOUS terrorist attack, or two, before we come to realize that the Left has been blowing smoke up our butts and that the ME as currently constructed can't be allowed to exist.
    And this is the plan. The Israeli actions lead to more terrorists attacks, that the US uses to justify further military action against Iran etc. Thats been the plan. One cannot control ME resources and establish neo-liberal capitalism any other way. Lets be clear what is being proposed. Massive killing of the Shia population from Irag to Lebanon to Iran etc. The democracy experiment is dead. Bush will now allow the Saudis et al to crack down on dissidents as long as their proclamations are supportive of US goals.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#21)
    by Peaches on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 02:17:28 PM EST
    ppj, You were insulted by being called silly? I'm sorry my dear old man. I call my son silly all the time. It is a term of endearment, my dear sir. I do think of you as a child and you should not be insulted by that. You are in the twilight of your life and your thinking capabiliities are not on the same level as the rest of us. One day I will be in the same position as you and may the younger generation not be insulted by my feeble mind, but be ientertained by me instead, as I am, now, by you.
    It'll take another SERIOUS terrorist attack, or two, before we come to realize that the Left has been blowing smoke up our butts and that the ME as currently constructed can't be allowed to exist.
    my impractical old man, we both know that a serious terrorist attack will come again. Our disagreement will be about how we respond. As far as the ME, our disagreement is over our ability to decide how the ME should exist. I say our ability is very limited. You believe this is not so. This is why I think you are but a child, in terms of your ability to reason.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 02:22:58 PM EST
    A state of continual war: it's a sacrement; it cleanses us and makes us righteous; it vindicates us from 1968 and the dirty hippies..

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#23)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 02:23:46 PM EST
    Maybe Condi is also going to attend the funeral for Iraq. Sectarian break-up of Iraq is now inevitable, admit officials

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#24)
    by Punchy on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 02:36:36 PM EST
    Cars full of people fleeing those villages were being attacked by warplanes as they tried to leave. One man told me of a hospital that he saw with his own eyes being bombed by warplanes in South Beirut.
    Hey, but TL says it's not RANDOM. So I guess they should...feel...good??...about the fact that they were targeted, and this wasn't just a random mistake?? Taking out whole vehicles stuffed with civilians is the worst tactic I've ever heard of. If you don't kill them all...I'm pretty sure you've just bought yourself another half-dozen terrorists and/or Hezbollah members. TL then asks:
    Will any Arab nations ever agree to take down Hezbollah? Can Israel do it by itself? Should it keep trying?
    Of course!! I'm guessing the smell of charred flesh in hollowed out Nissans is doing wonders for IDF morale...

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#25)
    by desertswine on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 02:53:53 PM EST
    Six years of bush league middle east policy, and this is what you get; death, murder, more killing, more war. The bush legacy will be one of unbelievable corruption and incredible incompetence.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#26)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 04:11:34 PM EST
    What we were supposed to learn in kindergarten is really true: violence is no solution. Anyone who thinks that it's possible for the Israelis to take down Hizbollah, or for the Americans to quell the Iraqis, or for the Russians to take out the Chechens, or fill in the blanks - should take a look at history.
    Um, yeah, except for Germany, Japan, the United States (and most of the rest of the Western Hemisphere), and, say, the PRC. Yeah, violence is never the solution. Except when it turns out to be a solution. Modern Democrat: all soundbites, no substance.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 04:47:49 PM EST
    Yeah, violence is never the solution. Except when it turns out to be a solution.
    As in Israel's "Final Solution" to the Hezbollah problem. Let's face it, any country founded on a racist philosophy such as Zionism is bound to value the lives of "other" civilians a lot less than their own "chosen" people. So the phrase "Never Again" now takes on a disgustingly ironic tone. Shame on the U.S. congress for bankrolling this ethnic cleansing campaign.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#29)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 05:06:50 PM EST
    Hey Gabe...are these your kids?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#30)
    by dutchfox on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 06:07:36 PM EST
    narius
    Hilter committed suicide because the US army is moving into Berlin.
    Actually it was the Russians; you might want to see the German film, "Downfall".
    The list goes on and on that violence was the solution of a conflict. The losing side may NOT like the solution, but violence did settle the issue.
    and
    Violence is a powerful tool if it is used right. I am not arguing that Israel did the right thing going into Lebanon now. But it is plain wrong to say violence never solves anything. History shows us that.
    Seems to me you are blind to what you are really saying. In the historical examples you cite, you are saying that the violence of war or whatever caused what happened in your examples. War is an abomination. All you have to do is go to your local library and check out these books:
    All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Maria Remarque The Red Badge of Courage by Stephen Crane Mutter Courage und Ihre Kinder/Mother Courage and Her Children by Bertolt Brecht War Sonnets by Rupert Brooke Anthem for Doomed Youth a poem by Wilfred Owen (influenced by his friendship with Siegfried Sassoon) The Man Outside by Wolfgang Borchert
    I only mention these books because they have impressed me deeply and have influenced how I live. Cheers. Jay

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 06:12:50 PM EST
    Peaches - I understand that Lincoln claimed to love the common man. Well, if you want to insult someone, just call'em common and see what that brings you. (The above roughly paraphrased from Brother Dave Gardner, Southern Philosopher, Whiskey Drinker and user of other substances.) As to the relationship between you and your son, I will leave that to you. I must protest, however, your continuing attacks on the senior citizens of this country. You must fear your future greatly to continually make negative and hateful remarks about us. All in all your demonstration of being age phobic is unbecoming. As for me, I must confess I find the Left's positions fodder for "The Fool's Paradise." Please take no offense at the above; it is merely a designation I use from time to time and I am sure, as you age, you will understand that it is not personal. This country has a wide and long tolerance of unpopular positions. Two more serious attacks, whether you are willing to admit this or not, will remove that tolerance, and dictate a course of action that none of us will enjoy. I am hopeful that this is not true, but just as false hope delays the necessary actions of the cancer patient, the protests and delays of the Left, ultimately, will require harsh and terrible actions against those they now seek to protect. Count on it, my brilliant friend. Write it down and post it on your office wall, with the date, time and author's moniker. I won't even ask to be called Mr. PPJakaJim.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#32)
    by chew2 on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 06:14:26 PM EST
    TL wishfully says,
    Israel is not randomly bombing civilians. They are warning civilians to evacuate so they can hit their military targets:
    Red Cross ambulances destroyed in Israeli air strike on rescue mission
    Even in a war which has turned the roads of south Lebanon into killing zones, Israel's rocket strike on two clearly marked Red Cross ambulances on Sunday night set a deadly new milestone.
    How can innocent civilians evacuate, when the Israelis shoot anything that moves?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 07:01:51 PM EST
    Even the UN is telling Hezbollah they need to shape up: Jan Egeland: "Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," he said. "I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men."

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 07:09:11 PM EST
    "Never again".. to us.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#35)
    by dutchfox on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 07:10:13 PM EST
    chew2 Yes, that's correct about the Red Cross I listen daily to a pod cast from the Guardian (Newsdesk)....and today there was a representative of the Lebanese Red Cross. On the first day of the Israeli assault, he said that an ambulance had been hit, too.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#36)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 07:25:39 PM EST
    Even the UN is telling Israel they need to shape up. Egeland:
    called Israel's offensive "disproportionate" and "a violation of international humanitarian law."
    A contest; Who is the bigger war criminal?:
    Israel's overall death toll stands at 40, with 17 people killed by Hezbollah rockets and 23 soldiers
    So the majority died in combat. Next we have Hezbollah:
    384 people had been killed, including 20 soldiers and 11 Hezbollah guerrillas.
    So 12 times as many civilians have been killed as legitimate targets of war. I don't see how anyone can support a country that is willing to kill 384 people to get 31.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#37)
    by JSN on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 08:10:49 PM EST
    A former neighbor taught at the American University in Beirut back in the days when the PLO was there. He and his familly had to leave when it became too dangerous. He called the fighters gunmen. In those days the gunmen were young adult males and any young adult male could be a gunman with a hidden gun. He did not think he or his wife were in any particular danger but his sons were young adult males. Today we also have male and female suicide bombers and children who point out the location of soldiers to snipers. As a consequence we have many civilan casulties because he who shoots first may live to tell about it. Are the soldiers war criminals or are they just trying to stay alive?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 08:23:51 PM EST
    sailor writes:
    Even the UN is telling Israel they need to shape up. Egeland:
    Uh, that's really impressive, sailor. Can you explain why the UN didn't enforce 1559? After all, if they had done so, we wouldn't be here.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 09:24:31 PM EST
    Some 700,000 Lebanese are now evacuees with no where to live. That's equivalent to 60 million Americans.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#41)
    by Al on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 09:51:32 PM EST
    People like Narius who think that violence "used right" (whatever that means) solves problems, talk like the Middle East conflict started last week. The violence in the Middle East has been going on for decades. How much longer do we have to wait for violence to do its magic and solve everything? Or is it not being "used right"?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Jul 24, 2006 at 10:56:32 PM EST
    the protests and delays of the Left, ultimately, will require harsh and terrible actions against those they now seek to protect.
    Oh Yeah, let's send the marines back into Lebanon. That sounds like a GREAT IDEA!

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:22:17 AM EST
    Ernie: Don't forget the Marines were there in the 50's and 60's. My dad was one of em. The Marines have been doing the evacuating this time also. First in, last out.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#44)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:31:43 AM EST
    I must protest, however, your continuing attacks on the senior citizens of this country. You must fear your future greatly to continually make negative and hateful remarks about us.
    Jim, My favorite senior citizen. Of all the silly things you have said, this might be the silliest. This is why I treasure you so. You always surprise. Your reference about fearing the future is right on, however. Apparently you agree.
    This country has a wide and long tolerance of unpopular positions. Two more serious attacks, whether you are willing to admit this or not, will remove that tolerance, and dictate a course of action that none of us will enjoy.
    This tolerance has been eroding since 9/11 and will, no doubt, be further eroded with every subsequent terrorist attacks. The right will always defend these infringements upon personal liberties and the Left with take its familair position as the defenders of these lost rights.
    I am hopeful that this is not true, but just as false hope delays the necessary actions of the cancer patient, the protests and delays of the Left, ultimately, will require harsh and terrible actions against those they now seek to protect.
    We have already reached that day. Lebanon is an obvious example.
    Count on it, my brilliant friend.
    Thank you for acknowledging my brillaince.
    Write it down and post it on your office wall, with the date, time and author's moniker. I won't even ask to be called Mr. PPJakaJim.
    Nasterdamous, this prediction is not particularly revealing, but I will store it in my memory banks for you. But remember this, The Minnesota Twins will win the world series this year. You heard it here first.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#45)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 08:42:36 AM EST
    There will be an earthquake in California in the future. Count on it. Write it down. You heard it here first, from me.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#46)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 10:00:16 AM EST
    This entire issue is a pathetic, sad comment on colonialism and post-colonialism. In modern times the only middle eastern nation able to genuinely control their own destiny has been Israel. The middle eastern oil nations were colonized, then had their political tyrannies set up and reinforced by the West's need for petroleum. We simply had those leaders we didn't like killed as the mafia would have. Not a proud history here. Other places, we have a very proud history. Here, nope. Nada. The middle east and its citizens have never been given the right to control their own affairs. First, not by the outside powers that really control things. Second, not by the inside powers beholden to the first. America is what it is because we were allowed to stumble our way to freedom, we were given the right to be wrong, terribly wrong many times. And that is the only route to an evolved, self-made, "civilized" society. Occupation, invasion, dictating what form of government and representation WE will acccept, these are only failures in the history books. For heaven's sake, OUR OWN HISTORY is just that, throwing off foreign control. How we fail to understand that here is beyond me. And how we also fail to accept that the Holocaust was SUCH a horrible and surreal and unprecedented modern crime against humanity, that is was INEVITABLE that an f'd aftermath resulted, that European Jewry who founded Israel would be highly and dysfunctionally affected by that extreme victimization. And Israel's founding in the middle of the barely post-colonial middle east resulted. One can scold both sides for their REACTIONS to this reality, but these twin truths sit side by side with equal stature unquestionably, and need to be trumpeted rhetorically every day, all day, until they sink in. They are the only truths, to me, that will end this madness. Both sides, in unison, saying "We are both justified and we are both full of sh*t".

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#48)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 10:24:01 AM EST
    Skip, One last quote for you, In war, there are no winners. We all lose - some more than others.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#49)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 10:33:09 AM EST
    Skip, Good post. Now you will be accused of being an extreme Israeli nationalist, and you will be asked why you would betray America. Dont be suprised if you are accused of calling people anti-semetic.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#50)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 10:33:28 AM EST
    ppj, 1559 was a resolution, not a call for intervention, and maybe if the US would be willing to pay their dues things would have been different. You can't hold back money and troops and then claim the UN is powerless when you did your best to make it that way. Also, hezbollah are not foreign troops, they are a lebanese political partywith 23 seats in Lebanon's 128-member parliament. So UN 1559 should be directed at israel for their invasion. Your constant insults, strawmen and distractions from honest discourse really should stop.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 10:41:44 AM EST
    Peaches - If you would be so kind as to read my comment, it was "your future" and not "the future" that I posit you are frightened of. Thus the "age phobic" problem that you demonstrate. You write:
    We have already reached that day. Lebanon is an obvious example.
    No. We have not even opened the book on what will happen. As to your brilliance. I plead guilty to making a vast overstatement. ;-)

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 10:53:15 AM EST
    this is clearly an effort to deligitimize the Israelis themselves. Following the logic of this poster, it should be just fine to kill everyone in Israel since they are nothing more than zionist racists.
    stupid strawman since no 'lefty' has ever advocated killing people ... even if they are zionist racists.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 11:09:16 AM EST
    The fact that Israel cannot attack Hizbollah without also killing civilians, whether purposely or not, is being used as an excuse and a weak kneed and immoral justification for the killing of those civilians. Rice has proposed a typical bush plan which is nothing more than their usual smoke and mirrors to make themselves look good to the suckers who eat up every word they spew when they talk about "supporting our ally - Israel". If Israel were really serious and being truthful when they say they are not attacking Lebanon and say they are not at war with the Lebanese government they have a very simple and obvious solution which neither they nor buschco have considered (or I believe, will consider). Israel can can ally itself with the majority non-Hizollah elements of the Lebanese government and both Israel and the US, with UN involvment, can held fund, build and train the Lebanese military to enable it to take control of the southern part of Lebanon away from Hizbollah, as well as assist the Lebanese government to enable it to provide the social services to the civilian population of Lebanon that Hizbollah is now providing and which gives Hizbollah its support among that population. But they will not. And Rice and bushco will not consider such a plan. It would be in direct opposition to the hegemonic policies carried out in the region for so many years. It is beyond comprehension that Israel would not want an ally on their northern border. And it is beyond comprehension that bushco would not want Israel to have an ally on their northern border. Unless they both have an unadmitted agenda... In spite of all the posturing I do not believe that Rice and Bush want peace.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 11:36:32 AM EST
    Sorry peaches, but I believe you are quite clearly wrong. In war there are winners and there are losers. It's what we do after the hostilities end that make a huge difference. Take for example Germany at the end of World War Two. It was a shambles, yet when the next threat loomed large, that is soviet style communism, we americans rallied to the aid of the people we had just vanquished. None of us should desire war, yet it has come to us. If one listens carefully to the Islamic pyschotics who are driving these conflicts one will hear strong echos of Nazi Germany. It is no wonder that Mein Kampf is a very popular book in the souks of the ME. so war is here, what should we do? We should fight to win and win decisively. Then we can begin the process of healing. this what America has always done and it is really who we are. Many people have the cart before the horse now. The victory over our enemies must occur before we offer succor to the populations that sustained them. Sailor, may I suggest that you sheet in and head up? Again, the dearth of comments exhorting the Islamists to stop their unaimed bombardment of Israel leads one to believe that the commenters here have no issue with the Israeli deaths. I've read this thread and I can't seem to find any criticism of the actions of Hezbullah or Hamas. it is therefore safe to conclude that you approve of these deaths. if this is an incorrect conclusion, please feel free to direct me to a website where you have posted denunciations of the rocket attacks on Israel. Thank you

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#55)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 11:37:57 AM EST
    In spite of all the posturing I do not believe that Rice and Bush want peace.
    They will accept a peace from any ME country that has ( or will install) a government that will do buisness with the US. All client states are welcomed. Democratic states are welcomed only if they will play ball with the US and its economic policies, other wise expect their governments to be changed one way or another. failure to comply and retaliation by said country against the US will be used as further reasons to increase Military force. So stop fighting the US open your borders to US corporations and if you are nice maybe we'll let you lie under the table and catch the scraps. This has been the essence of US foreign policy in the ME and south America for the last 100 years.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#56)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 11:44:39 AM EST
    "We are both justified, and we are both full of sh*t."

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#57)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 11:53:37 AM EST
    Skip, In war there are objectives. Sometimes, those objectives are reached. There is also a shifting of resources, so in a material sense there can be people who are classified as winners and also some people who are clearly losers. In the great totality, war is always about destruction and killing. So, despite increases in GDP, the overall economy is harmed. Psychologically, life is severly devalued and the next war always comes easier on both sides. That said, the case can still be made that sometimes war is necessary. I believe Hezbellah violated international law in attacking Israel. There are a number of compelling reasons for why Hezbellah acted as it did, but none excuse these attacks. Israel was justified in responding. THeir response has been over the top however, and the security of Israel in the future will be lessened as a result, unless they act very decisively in rebuilding Lebanon. Likewise the security of the US was also harmed by Israels obscene response. I borrow the term obscene from Robert Fisk as use it to describe the targeting of Lebanon's infrasture and civilains.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#58)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 12:05:21 PM EST
    17 israelis civilians have died. 373 Lebanese civilians have died. One doesn't have to be a defender of hebollah to see how wrong israel is.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#59)
    by chew2 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 12:06:34 PM EST
    skip,
    The israelis are trying hard to limit this to active hezbullah combatants, but HB recieves significant support from the communities in which they live. Again: winning means destroying the will to fight.
    So the Israeli's are bombing the hell out of Lebanese civilians of all stripes in order to destroy Hezbollah's will to fight. This has zero chance of success, and is only succeeding in destroying Lebanon. Plus if that's really true, they are committing a war crime. Israel's only hope is to invade and defeat Hezbollah on the ground. Even then their victory will only be temporary, since they cannot destroy Hezbolah's will to fight or ability to rearm without killing all it's supporters in Lebanon. They are afraid to do this because they don't want to be stuck in Lebanon again dying the death of a thousand cuts. So supporters like you are left with brave talk about "decisive victory". Let me point you to the analysis of Colonel Pat Lang and Colonel Ralph Peters who both explain why Israel must invade or lose this war. But they both also know that if Israel invades it may not be able to get out.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 12:10:53 PM EST
    Of course there can be no proof of this, but I have a exegetical theory about the "proportionality" demands. as Peaches notes, Hezbullah violated some rules that western civilization holds near and dear. further, many have admitted that Israel has the right to respond. This is new and uncharted territory for many of Israel's most vocal critics. they cannot demand that Israel simply suffer the attacks as no one could legitimately expect that. They cannot directly blame Israel's past because as peaches notes, none of these "reasons" excuse the poor behavior of Hezbullah. Yet for the rabid, virulent anti Israel types this is an untenable situation. There must be some way that they can criticize the state they love to hate. so we have this "proportionality" meme. It's perfect in so many ways. First, it's completely subjective. Proportionality is in the eye of the beholder so anything Israel does could be critiqued by simply holding it up to some vague benchmark. next, it's a sure way to lose a war. Or if not outright lose then its clearly a way to "not win". Proportionality simply allows Israel's enemies to live on and fight another day. And that has to be music to the ears of the Israel haters. finally it sells well on the various bully pulpits. Kofi can say it, it can be echoed all over the planet by various "spokespersons" and yet they never have to define this in any operational manner. yes, this is quite clever.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#61)
    by chew2 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 12:14:16 PM EST
    Skip, More regarding your fantasy about "destroying the will to fight". Colonel Pat Lang:
    At the strategic level, the IDF under Halutz is following classic "Air Power" theory which holds that crushing the "Will of the People" is the correct objective in compelling the acceptance of one's own "will" by an adversary or neutral. With that objective in mind, all of the target country is considered to be one, giant target set. Industry, ports, bridges, hospitals, roads, you name it. It is all "fair game." In this case the notion is to force the Lebanese government and army to accept a role as the northern jaw in a vise that will crush Hizballah and subsequently to hold south Lebanon against Hizballah. Since Lebanon is a melange of ethnic and religious communities of which Shia LEBANESE are a major element and since many Lebanese Shia are supporters of Hizballah, the prospect of getting the Lebanese government to do this is "nil."
    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#62)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 12:24:44 PM EST
    skip since he approves of the way the war has been fought must therefore believe that all lebanese are terrorists and therefore all deserve to be killed. Or they somehow expect unarmed citizens to subdue the fighters, something the Israeli army could not do during its 13 year occupation. very clever way of justifying mass murder.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#63)
    by chew2 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 12:26:53 PM EST
    Skip,
    Proportionality simply allows Israel's enemies to live on and fight another day.
    Exactly. But was/is kidnapping two Israeli soldiers worth total unrestrained war to destroy the "enemy" and its supporters so they cannot "live to fight another day". This was not some existential attack on Israel's ability to survive, but one in a long line of tit for tat attacks and provocations. Israel may be looking for a way to save face and defuse this war, because it's becoming clear that they cannot destroy the military threat posed by Hezbollah without invading and engaging in a far too costly and lengthy war and occupation.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#64)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 12:35:32 PM EST
    Skip, In terms of winning the war, you may be right. I believe you are wrong. There you go. As far as proportionality and the eye of the beholder, I think you are wrong in this sense. Sailor put up the relevant statistics - 17 Isreali civilains deaths vs. 373 Lebanese civilain deaths. This appears out of proportion, no matter who the subject is. We all can see the difference. Your point is that these civilain deaths are necessary to win the war. Okay. You have a point. Again I think you are wrong. But, if you are right you have, so far forgotten one thing. These civilains are dead. They are human. THeir loss is all of our loss. In war we should mourn for this loss. If you can't or you won't, then this is the cost of war that makes us all losers. This is how life is dimished in value - much more so than stem cells or the choice for abortions. If we can't see that and we don't feel that loss, whether we are ISraeli, Lebanese, Islamic, Christain or Americans (we've built most of the missiles and bombs), then we have lost a part of our humanity.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 12:40:03 PM EST
    Chew2, I understand your point, I simply don't agree. the IDF air strikes are aimed at hezbullah command and control and those physical structures that have logistics impact. the objective is to make it impossible for Israel's enemies to communicate and resupply. It's pretty typical warfare actually. In WW2 many of america's most dangerous bombing missions were against Yugoslavian refineries. They were very heavily defended by the Nazis and very heavily bombed by the Americans. Ultimately we destroyed the German's ability to engage in manoever and this cost them the war. by destroying the roads and airports Israel is making it difficult for hezbullah to move all those rockets around. When the guys in the bunkers run out of food and AK rounds, the tone and tenor of the fighting will change. Combiningg this with focused incursions against Hezbullah hard points will spell doom for Israel's enemies. I need to say this very clearly, the Lebanese people faced a trade off between their fear of hezbullah and their loathing of Israel. In the end they let Hezbullah become a part of their country. They cannot now contend that this is not an international issue. It would be like the US invading Canada and then saying "never mind, it was just the Republicans, not the rest of us." Or Germany demanding that the Allies respond "proportionally" because it's only the Nazi's not every German. that's the issue that the lebanese face now. It is sad, but frankly I have little sympathy for them. They seem perfectly content to let 19 year old Israel soldiers demonstrate the courage they lacked. so which was it? Fear? Or hatred? Or both? the civilized world has been given a gift. We can amputate Syria and Iran's cat's paws and deliver a serious blow to their ability to sow hate and destruction in this part of the world. Winning this war will take the same things it always takes: destruction of the people's will to fight. As I stated earlier the Lebanese can end this quickly: render up Nasrallah and deploy the LA to the Israel border as peace keepers. the Lebanese Army won't obey such an order. After all they provided the radar data that Hezbullah used in the silkworm missle attack. the lebanese government won't render up any hezbullah leaders because Hezbullah Are the leaders. This is a war between Lebanon and Israel. The lebanese had ample opportunity to prevent this and they did nothing but accomodate the problem. And I'm still in search of a comment criticizing the Muslims for unaimed rocket attacks on Israeli population centers. I'm still waiting for one of you to bemoan the fact that Israelis are living in bomb shelters to avoid the random death that hezbullah has launched. I'm still waiting for one of you to note that hezbullah exclusively attacks Israeli citizens. when do yo complain about that disproportionality?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#66)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 12:50:05 PM EST
    that's the issue that the lebanese face now. It is sad, but frankly I have little sympathy for them.
    Well, There you go.
    And I'm still in search of a comment criticizing the Muslims for unaimed rocket attacks on Israeli population centers.
    It has been said over and over again. But, for you, I will say it again. These attacks are wrong and against international law.
    I'm still waiting for one of you to bemoan the fact that Israelis are living in bomb shelters to avoid the random death that hezbullah has launched.
    Again this is a horrible way to live in fear. Hezbellah is wrong to target civilains.
    I'm still waiting for one of you to note that hezbullah exclusively attacks Israeli citizens.
    Hezbellah should not attack civilains. They should be persuaded that this is wrong. Perhaps they should also be punished, but we had better be prepared to do what is possible and not operate under the myth that we can eliminate all threats to US and Israel.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 01:01:49 PM EST
    well let me respond to these in order: first soccerdad: I never said that all Lebanese deserve to die. What I am quite clearly saying is that this is a war between the people of Israel and the people of Lebanon, provoked by the people of lebanon. they must end their support of Hezbullah, it's really pretty straightforward. They sowed, now they reap. they placed thier loathing of Israel above their fear of Hezbullah, if they feared Hezbullah at all. Trying to seperate the Lebanese "civilians" from the Hezbullah is like asking allied airmen to only bomb the nazis from the 30,000 feet. All the people in that factory or that refinery that the allies bombed were supporting the nazi war effort. All the people of Lebanon allowed hezbullah to become part of their government. They cannot now complain because they don't like the results of their choices. Israel is focused on Command centers and infrastructure. did you know that beirut had a neighborhood called "the forbidden city" where only Hezbullah members resided? Where are the civilians in that little corner of happiness? Chew2 again I must disagree. The border between Israel and Lebanon is quite clear. There are UN outposts there to insure that all parties know the lines. what the lebanese did was an internationally recognized act of war. Nasrallah might have thought he was just going for the good old arab mafia shakedown routine, but sadly, he crossed a recognized border while acting on behalf of a recognized state. that's not tit for tat, that's war. And again, what about the rocket attacks on Israel's population? What do the tit for tat people have to say about that? What I find interesting is your insistence on constraining Israel while making no concomittant demands on the Arabs. I'd love an explanation. Peaches, here's where we part company. First, those are simply numbers. What was the kill ratio in WW2? Care to know what the kill ratio was the last time Syria attempted to invade Israel? How does 80 to one sound? the numbers offered by sailor amount to 22 to one. did he complain during that last war with Israel? I doubt it. if hezbullah mourns the loss of so many lebanese, they should lay down their arms and sue for peace. They won't because they worship death. Read some of their speeches, think about all this martyrdom stuff. They are counting on your emotions prevailing over my rationality and they counted wrong. if this war is such a tragedy for the lebanese they should have acted long ago. They knew Israel's capacity to make war. The lebanese live right next door to the most powerful army in the region (well second most powerful, no one's gonna take on the us forces in Iraq toe to toe). If they were afraid of Israeli reprisals they should have confronted the sources of tension on thier side of the border. Instead they welcomed hezbullah into their parliament and their cabinet. sure they might have been fuming about the Israel occupation but it ended six years ago. Six years ago peaches. they managed, with our help, to get the syrian army out of their country but lost their nerve when it came to hezbullah. Well sad to say, the IDF hasn't lost it's nerve. Those guys will do the work that the lebanese should have done. I don't see a whole lot of mourning for the 19 year old kids who are fighting and dying to defend Israel against this arab aggressor. Is this selective outrage? Someone mentioned war crimes. again, what is sending rockets at Israeli cities? are they aimed at specific military targets? Can anyone discern any military value in these attacks? yes war crimes are being committed, but not by the Israelis.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#68)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 01:11:16 PM EST
    first soccerdad: I never said that all Lebanese deserve to die.
    Thats exactly what you are saying in your obtuse way. There is no other conclusion to be drawn. Your position is very clear they made thier choice too bad. If they get killed too bad they made their choice. Why didn't Israel disarm them in 13 years?
    What I am quite clearly saying is that this is a war between the people of Israel and the people of Lebanon, provoked by the people of lebanon.
    Exactly how was this provoked by the people of Lebanon. Israel planned and chose war over negotiation and compromise knowing full well that the US would do nothing. You are in essence saying that all Lebonese are terrorist and deserve what they get.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#69)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 01:14:15 PM EST
    Instead they welcomed hezbullah into their parliament and their cabinet. sure they might have been fuming about the Israel occupation but it ended six years ago. Six years ago peaches. they managed, with our help, to get the syrian army out of their country but lost their nerve when it came to hezbullah.
    this is disingenous at best. 13 years the Israelis couldn't get them to disarm. Syria who had some influence over them was forced to leave, thus getting rid of some of the people who might have been able to temper them. Exactly how long has Syria been gone. I dont see you crying out for the 9000 Palestinians That Israel has locked up.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#70)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 01:17:22 PM EST
    Skip, You are missing my point. I am mourning for Israelis and Lebanese. War means death. This death is always tragic. In order to maintain our humanitiy it is necessary we mourn all loss of life. You want to blame these civilains for being killed. This is no different than Ward Churchill calling the victims on 9/11 little Eichmans. You blame Lebanon for Hezbellah, yet you know they have as much chance of eliminating them as Israel. Hezbellah is an idea more than a group and this idea grows with each passing day. If Israel wishes to marginalize this idea they need to find an alternative idea for muslems who have yet to be captivated by it. Destroying the infrastructure of a nation and killing its civilains - and then throwing salt on the wounds by implying they deserve it - will only create more people who fall under the spell of Hezbellah and make Israel weaker and less secure in the long run.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 01:22:15 PM EST
    Sailor:
    17 israelis civilians have died. 373 Lebanese civilians have died. One doesn't have to be a defender of hebollah to see how wrong israel is.
    By that logic, we were wrong in WWII. Who lost more to bombs, the Axis or Allies? You did provide a good laugh. The difference is, as I see it, the terrorists are using the people as, cover, shields. I guess you consider that fine if Hezbollah does that.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#72)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 01:26:50 PM EST
    From Ze'ev Maoz in Haaertz
    There's practically a holy consensus right now that the war in the North is a just war and that morality is on our side. The bitter truth must be said: this holy consensus is based on short-range selective memory, an introverted worldview, and double standards. This war is not a just war. Israel is using excessive force without distinguishing between civilian population and enemy, whose sole purpose is extortion. That is not to say that morality and justice are on Hezbollah's side. Most certainly not. But the fact that Hezbollah "started it" when it kidnapped soldiers from across an international border does not even begin to tilt the scales of justice toward our side.
    LINK read the whole thing he goes on to discuss the history.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#73)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 01:31:22 PM EST
    Who lost more to bombs, the Axis or Allies?
    Wile, Are you going to include the Soviet Union? Since, they were part of the allies, then the allies suffered far more casualties.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#74)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 01:35:20 PM EST
    link

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:01:01 PM EST
    Peaches: By bombs? Read the post. Bombs. Germany had no strategic bombers. Neither did Japan.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:02:05 PM EST
    Oh soccerdad, I'm glad you responded. here's a quote from Nasrallah: "In a statement to Reuters, Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah said: "Resolution 1559 requires the disbanding of the Lebanese militias. All right. We do not consider ourselves a militia, the Lebanese government does not consider us a militia, the parliament does not consider us a militia, and most of the Lebanese people do not consider us a militia. Therefore the resolution does not apply to us." On another occasion Nasrallah said Resolution 1559 "constitutes foreign intervention, with the encouragement of Israel, which wants to get rid of our weapons and of the resistance so that it can do whatever it likes." " I snagged this from the MEMRI website. so there you have it. Hezbullah decided that it didn't need to disarm because it wasn't a militia, it was a resistance. Apparently the Lebanese people agreed. and that's how this war was provoked by the people of Lebanon Soccerdad. I wish I could recall the author of this famous quote: "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Well if there are good men in Lebanon, they did nothing. Now the 900 hundred palestinians that Israel has locked up. Hmm, how many of them, do you reckon, are of the same calibre as Samir Quntar? The palestinians just awarded him honorary citizenship. What did he do to earn this special recognition? Well let's see according to a story linked to at a nice blog called "shrinkwrapped" Mr Quntar is now serving a life sentence for his role in a terror attack on a town in Israel. Mr Quntar and his buds landed at night by boat. They assaulted an israeli appartment building and went on a random killing spree. Poor Mr Quntar was only able to kill nine israelis, but it was the last two that I think propeled him into the terrorist hall of fame. He found a father and daughter hiding in a apartment and took them at gun point out to the beach. There he killed the father, so that this would be the last thing the daughter saw. After the father was dead our dear Mr Quntar dashed out the daughter's brains with his rifle butt. so, no, soccerdad, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the palestinians locked up in Israeli jails and I note that unlike the palestinians, the Israelis don't believe in the death sentence. As I understand it, Mr Quntar has a website. I'm sure he's just as big a star as Tookie williams. Peaches, we can all bemoan the tragedy of war. but the question is what do we do about it? I prefer Ronald Reagan's POV. "Of the four wars in my lifetime, none came about because the U.S. was too strong." As reagan said, wars happen when people are convinced that the price of aggression is cheap. this is a perfect case. Nasrallah and the Hamas guys might have thought this was a little snatch and grab shake down. In their minds the price of their aggression was cheap. Think they'll do it again?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#77)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:10:23 PM EST
    Wile, Yeah, I read it the first time. I was just uncertain why you would make that distinction.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#78)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:16:37 PM EST
    Think they'll do it again? They may not, but someone else surely will. Fighting the wars Reagan wanted to fight has cost us plenty in Latin America. The continued policy of the current adminsitration is now costing us in the ME. As you say,
    As reagan said, wars happen when people are convinced that the price of aggression is cheap.
    The price of aggression is costly in pecuniary terms and psychologically. Isreal and the US will face thsi reality soon. We cannot sustain the pace of our military efforts around the world. Our economy will soon collapse under the weight of our military expenditures. We can only hope the balance sheets will show more friends than enemies when this occurs.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#79)
    by dutchfox on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:22:50 PM EST
    Just read on the Guardian site...
    An Israeli bomb has hit a UN observation post on the border between Israel and Lebanon, killing four peacekeepers, a UN official has said. The victims included observers from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, a senior Lebanese military official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to release the information to the media.
    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#80)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:43:52 PM EST
    The IDF air strikes are aimed at hezbullah command and control and those physical structures that have logistics impact.
    No, they are taking out bridges, water treatment plants, hospitals, blocks of civilian housing and airports. These are not 'terrorist hideyholes, they are the country.
    As reagan said, wars happen when people are convinced that the price of aggression is cheap. this is a perfect case.
    Yes, israel knew the neocons of bushco wouldn't stop them so they attacked a country that didn't attack them. It would be like bombing idaho to get McVeigh. And now the israelis are targeting the UN. All you guys want is world domination, and it didn't work for cesar, hannibal, hitler, stalin and it won't work for you.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#81)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:57:55 PM EST
    hezbollah IS NOT using the airports to move their weapons around. the weapons were mostly prepositioned. They haven't let up since israel invaded so their premise is wrong. but no doubt they'll 'stay the course', just like the idiot rushing bunker busters to them. bush could stop the destruction with one phone call: "hello, Israel? No more money or arms."

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:05:31 PM EST
    Ernie: Don't forget the Marines were there in the 50's and 60's. My dad was one of em. The Marines have been doing the evacuating this time also. First in, last out.
    Then you of all people should appreciate the fact that a little racist rogue state like Israel should not own the United States political establishment to the point where we ask how high when they say jump. We have paid 2,600 soldier's lives and counting to protect them from Saddam Hussein. We send them billions in armaments to kill civilians as they see fit. The list goes on and on. Time to say enough already and cut our losses, and more importantly to hold Israel to the same standard as everyone else. Seriously now, what do we get out of this relationship, besides the hatred of a large segment of the world's population?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#83)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:10:13 PM EST
    bush could stop the destruction with one phone call: "hello, Israel? No more money or arms."
    There's way too much AIPAC money floating around for anything like that to happen anytime soon. To the point where both major parties are currently having an all-out ass kissing contest for that money. Meanwhile Israel goes on full speed with its ethnic cleansing efforts. And we get to pay for it all, in more ways than one.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#84)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 05:04:59 PM EST
    Sailor- "They (Israel) attacked a country that didnt attack them" -"even if they are zionist racists" Ernesto- "...a little racist rogue state like Israel should not own the United States political establishment..." "... any country founded on a racist philosophy such as zionism..." LWW (from another thread- Claims that his congressman's aide had "an Israeli accent" Chew2- "TL, feebly repeats Israeli self serving propoganda." You guys should listen to yourselves. And you should be ashamed

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#85)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 05:47:36 PM EST
    roger why dont you explain to us how arab jews are treated in Israel.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#86)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:00:48 PM EST
    HezbollahDad, I dont live in Israel. I am sure that you can explain how Arabs in Israel are treated so much worse than jews in arab countries. American GIs, stationed in Saudi Arabia, had to attend jewish services aboard ships. The US also told them to be VERY low key about their ethnicity. I hear that the Saudis treated our female soldiers equally well. But, Israel bad, hezbollah great- to you, at least.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#87)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:06:54 PM EST
    as always roger starts with the name calling and avoids the point. So how are we to take hime seriously when he cant avoid juvinile name calling.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#88)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:07:51 PM EST
    That bit of hypocracy aside, everyone everywhere should be treated with dignity and respect. Israel has, over the years, made some terrible decisions. There is an old adage that tough cases make bad law. In a different context, Israels bad situation has lead to misery for many. At the same time, dont pretend that the miltants have clean hands in this. If anything, they are much worse offenders against human rights. Also, I have not heard anyone condem the above comments. All I have heard is some lame comment to the effect of "They're not perfect" Which sounds much like "They deserve it" No one desrves it

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#89)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:09:07 PM EST
    Dad, You are such a great spokesman for the cause, I thought that you'd be flattered.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:12:12 PM EST
    sailor, either you were in the navy and not a ground pounder or like me you sail for recreation. In either case you've missed the point I'm making. The airport is a means of resupply for Hezbullah. As noted elsewhere flights originating in Iran will not be permitted to pass through either Turkish or SA airspace on their way to Beirut. The airport is a prinicple resupply point. It will not be operational for the duration of this conflict. Water treatment? The HB has to drink, right? Bridges? Gotta get fallafel to the boys in the bunkers right. Further, the Israeli's want to do everything they can to keep their kidnapped soldiers nearby. I don't see any reason to "stop the destruction" at all. Hezbullah is the modern equivalent of nazi germany, destroying them will only improve the world. Peaches, you are making a conscious effort to change the subject. Latin America is only tangentially related to the conflict in the middle east. And of course we can sustain the pace of our military efforts. As a percentage of GDP military expenses are quite low now and they can be ramped up quickly. If its a question of priorities, let me just say that the constitution clearly makes our common defense a significant priority. the economic boogie man doesn't work with the economy in America chugging along. And sailor, I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong. Lebanon attacked Israel, there's just no two ways about it. What diplomat of any standing has said otherwise? The hit on the UN outpost was unfortunate but I'm not surprised. These guys watched Hezbullah build the bunkers that the IDF is now destroying. YOu'd think they'd be smart enough to recognize that they were in a hot zone. I note the deafening silence in response to the quotes from nasrallah and the facts about the lebanese prisoner in the israeli jail. Further I note that none of the more vocal proponents of the Hezbullah POV have managed to mention the incessant rocket attacks on Israel. This glaring absence seriously weakens any argument against the IDF's actions.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#91)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:17:20 PM EST
    Skip, If they want to discuss South America, you could mention Hezbollah bombing the Israeli embassy in Argentina, or one of their other bombings in the region.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#92)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:18:10 PM EST
    Roger, I think you are just juvinile since you either have name calling or innuedo as a mianstay of your posts. And of course when in doubt accuse or infer that people are antisemites. Why dont you try and read this article in Christianity Today to get a more well rounded view of what some of the underlying socio-political forces are. Of course it would take away time from your calling for the slaughter of all Lebanese.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#93)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:20:33 PM EST
    I didnt call anyone anything I quoted them Much more damning, in this case I notice that SD doesnt distance himself from ANY of those quotes Not one bit

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#94)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:26:00 PM EST
    SD, You would also be suprised how many life long friends I have from Muslim countries. They dont love Israel, but many of them would rather die than "go home" In Syria, it is a crime to have a tattoo. Living in the US for a period of time is enough to get you tortured. My Lebanese friends tell stories about the "crazy Druze". Even the druze tell these stories. I have friends who grew up in the Bekka valley, a peaceful, lush place. Before the militants took it over. So, tell me how Hezbollah is good for the Lebanese, I could use a laugh

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#95)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:34:41 PM EST
    So, tell me how Hezbollah is good for the Lebanese, I could use a laugh
    I see you wont bother reading the article, no surprise since you are not interested in discussion just belittling those who dont share your views. Gee I'm shocked - not.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#96)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:38:14 PM EST
    "worldnetstupid"?? Where did you come up with that? "I am so tired of people making sh(*)t up" Many of us are tired of it. And you have an article stating that hezbollah is good for lebanon? Did that come from the site that you referred to?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#97)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:56:05 PM EST
    So, tell me how Hezbollah is good for the Lebanese, I could use a laugh
    Hezbollah are a part of the Lebanese, the hold 23 seats in the parliament. I don't know if hezbollah is good for the Lebanese, but I do know if it wasn't for them Israel wouldn't have left the country in 2000.
    The airport is a means of resupply for Hezbullah.
    from who? tell me (and provide links) as to who supplies Hezbollah with arms thru the airport? the israelis own the skies. And why destroy the water works? Or the UN outposts? Or hospitals? or Bridges? Give it up dude, hezbollah are a$$holes, the israeli gov't are bigger a$$holes. Since everyone involved is an a$$hole, they really shouldn't be arguing about 'who's is bigger.' But I will nominate one, bush, because he could insist on a cease fire and refuses to do so. It's a lot easier to talk when both sides stop firing missiles at each other. Why is that such a difficult concept?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#99)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:19:20 PM EST
    roger, do you agree that that nothing can be done until a ceasefire is in effect?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#100)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:26:01 PM EST
    Sailor, There should have been a ceasefire last week. I'll go further; 1-Sheba farms should be given to Lebanon (I'd say "returned", but that's another argument) 2- The US, and NATO should train and equip the Lebanese Army. 3- Israel, the US and others should contribute financially to Lebanon (and Palestine) 4- Hezbollah should be disarmed

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#101)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:30:05 PM EST
    Roger, For what its worth I find those to be very sensible suggestions

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#102)
    by roger on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:36:59 PM EST
    SD, Thanks. I agree with you on most topics. Sadly there is a lot of distance between us on this one. Good to see that there can be agreement at all in such a divisive topic

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#103)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:41:01 PM EST
    Roger, me too.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#104)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:54:34 PM EST
    Lebanon attacked Israel
    Uhhh, no, hezbollah kidnapped 2 soldiers. Not Lebanon.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#105)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 08:15:09 PM EST
    Just how does one benefit from a cease fire with a group that is calling for your extinction?

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#106)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 08:49:24 PM EST
    Just how does one benefit from a cease fire with a group that is calling for your extinction?
    Good point. Hezbollah is in a tough spot since Israel is trying to make them extinct, and the U.S. being Israel's lapdog doesn't help matters much.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#107)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 08:53:33 PM EST
    Roger, Israel is both racist and a rogue state. And they get away with war crimes, targeted political assassinations and genocide only because their lobbyists own a certain very powerful foreign government. And like it or not, the rest of the world knows that.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#108)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 10:36:40 PM EST
    Some background reading on the latest outrages: Ambulances blown to bits by our bombs U.N. observers blown to bits by our bombs (Bolton must've gotten a woodrow hearing about that) Injured left to die while aid shipments our blocked by our bombs Background on Israel's Last Big Foray into Lebanon Some Miscellaneous Fun Facts Finally, one last flickering candle of hope against the murderers in charge

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#109)
    by chew2 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 11:16:32 PM EST
    Skip,
    The border between Israel and Lebanon is quite clear. There are UN outposts there to insure that all parties know the lines. what the lebanese did was an internationally recognized act of war.
    Labelling it an "act of war" doesn't make it any more serious that what it was, a pretty minor kidnapping and attack, and similar to many other attacks and counter attacks across that border over the last 6 years since Israel withdrew from Lebanon. Hezbollah has shot at, killed, and kidnapped Israeli soldiers before, but Israel has previously simply responded with some limited bombing and raids of its own, not a full scale war aimed at "breaking the will" of the Lebanese people by bombing and killing them. Israel has unwisely chosen to escalate this conflict into a potentially ruinous wider war. Your celebration of this bombing of civilians can only be characterized as bloodthirsty and vengeful, especially since, as most military experts point out, it is going to do nothing to defeat Hezbollah, eliminate it's military capacity, or to get those hostages back. Punishing the Lebanese civilian population in order to pressure Hezbollah is collective punishment and a war crime, and is not different from the Nazi's shooting every 10th man from some French village after the French resistance killed some German soldier. If the aim is to prevent Hezbollah from having the capacity to attack Israel, then you must attack Hezbollah on the ground and establish a security zone. The cost to Israel of doing this will be very high, but that is what they must do, not cowardly and arrogant bombing of civilians to "break their will". Or they could arrange for some imperfect negotiated solution, which is likely and hopefully what will happen. Colonel Ralph Peters says the same. It was a mistake to attack the Lebanese civilians:
    Israel's frustration with the Lebanese government's toleration of terrorists boiled over into folly. Israeli aircraft attacked Beirut's international airport and other targets around the city, doing both Israel and Lebanon's fragile democracy far more harm than good.
    Israel hopes to pressure the Lebanese government into taking action against Hezbollah. But Lebanon's leaders can't do that. If they ordered their work-in-progress military to attack and disarm Hezbollah, some Lebanese Armed Forces units would mutiny, others would disintegrate - and any outfits that attempted to take on Hezbollah would be badly and swiftly defeated. And the action would reignite the country's dormant civil war.
    Peters makes clear that Israel can only defeat Hezbollah by attacking on the ground, not the immoral bombing campaign.
    If IDF tanks don't thrust across the border in force in the next few days, it will reflect the greatest crisis of will in Israel's history. Israel is signaling its enemies that it's afraid to risk its soldiers' lives. ..... Israel has to pull itself together now, to send in ground troops in sufficient numbers, with fierce resolve to do what must be done: Root out Hezbollah fighters and kill them. This means Israel will suffer painful casualties.
    Hopefully, Israel and the world will shrink from that solution because it will be too deadly and ruinous for Israel and the whole region and will lead to continuing war and destruction for years to come.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#110)
    by roger on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:19:28 AM EST
    Gee, we forgot about a few hundred rockets, didnt we........

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#111)
    by roger on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:21:00 AM EST
    Israel "owns" the US? A staple of racists for years. Racist demonization of your enemy rarely leads to peaceful solutions

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#112)
    by roger on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 04:30:34 AM EST
    The latest on Shabaa ffarms

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#113)
    by Andreas on Mon Jul 31, 2006 at 10:20:38 AM EST
    Talkleft wrote: "Israel is not randomly bombing civilians." That is true. Israel deliberately targets them.

    Re: Condi Rice Visits Beirut (none / 0) (#114)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 31, 2006 at 12:11:38 PM EST
    Bush's new 4 point plan for fixing the Middle East is here

    Condi Rice Visits Beirut | 109 comments (109 topical)