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Israel- Lebanon Open Thread

Continuing the discussion on Israel, Lebanon, Hezbollah and the U.S. from here and here.

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    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Al on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 12:38:59 PM EST
    Israel continues to destroy Lebanese homes and kill Lebanese residents as if they were guilty of anything, just as it has done with Palestinian homes and residents. And the rest of the world looks the other way. The only possible reason for this is that Israel, and its followers, still believe that given sufficient force they can completely eliminate the attacks against them. This is madness. Israel has been doing this for decades, it hasn't worked, and still they repeat the same madness over and over and over again. People die, totally innocent people die, damn it, children die, and still the fools refuse to contemplate any other option than blind destruction, even though it's a proven failure.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 12:53:55 PM EST
    From Juan Cole:
    I got this from the CNI. I agree Please let Congress know that Israel's Total War on Lebanon (they hit the Saint Therese Hospital today) is unacceptable.
    Israel's attacks on innocent civilians and civilian infrastructure in Gaza and Lebanon are a violation of U.S. law, specifically the U.S. Arms Export Control Act and the U.S. Foreign Assistance Act. The U.S. Arms Export Control Act restricts the use of U.S. weapons to legitimate self-defense and internal policing; U.S. weapons cannot be used to attack civilians in offensive operations. The U.S. Foreign Assistance Act prohibits U.S. aid of any kind to a country with a pattern of gross human rights violations.
    juan Cole The US must demand a cease fire now, not next week or next month, but now. Israel is targeting civilian infrastructure, a milk and a medicine factory. The US government is asleep. Laura Rozen is correct to draw an analogy with the WH response to Katerina.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:06:12 PM EST
    Lets see terrorism by Muslims - bad; State sponsored terrorism by Israel - good. Make no mistake attacks on civilian targets such as water and power plants, hospitals, milk plants etc is state sponsored terrorism. Let the moral reltivists come forth and spin their morally bankrupt arguments which at the end of the day have their foundation in racism, i.e. "they" are all terrorists. Now PPJ and his ilk joins their ranks as an enabler of state sponsored terrorism.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:12:26 PM EST
    Al & Squeaky... Where is your condemnation of Hezbollah? 1 - for attacking Israel in the first place... intentionally targeting civilians (what about those civilians that have died?) 2 - for using their own civilians as shields 3 - for putting rocket launchers in civilian areas.. (knowing they'll be hit just so people like you will blame the US for the casualties) They have you all suckered! Too bad you're so blinded by your hatred of the US Government you can't see the light. I eagerly await your continued defense of these people that started this most recent escalation of hostilities! And also... jumping on the US for not getting involved... Of course we all know if we do get involved, you'll complain about that too. (we should be minding our own business)... no satisfying the left is there? BTW Squeak... still waiting for your "proportionate response" answer. Cat got your tongue?

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:15:39 PM EST
    soccerdad... State sponsored terrorism by Israel - good Please explain how defending themselves...and wanting to do away with the future possibility of agression by Hezbollah is considered terrorism? Are you really that blind that you can actually give Hezbollah a pass on this one?

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Andreas on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:29:24 PM EST
    Articles published by the WSWS today:
    The speech given by New York's Democratic Senator Hillary Clinton to a rally staged by Zionist organizations Monday across from the United Nations headquarters in Manhattan amounted to a celebration of massacres and war crimes. Her remarks left no doubt that a vote for Clinton in November is a vote not only to continue the US war in Iraq, but to expand and intensify the slaughter throughout the region.
    Hillary Clinton celebrates Israeli war crimes By Bill Van Auken, Socialist Equality Party candidate for US Senate from New York, 19 July 2006 ***
    On Tuesday, the seventh day of Israel's air war on Lebanon, with some 250 civilians killed and much of the country's infrastructure destroyed, President George Bush issued yet another threat against Syria.
    Western diplomacy supports Israel's war of aggression By Chris Marsden and Barry Grey 19 July 2006

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:46:34 PM EST
    Andreas... Western diplomacy supports Israel's war of aggression Israel's war of aggression??? LMAO... And from a Socialist website no less... What a surprise!!! And again.. no mention of Hezbollah's part in this..! They are the poor "innocent" people fealing the rath of mean old Israel's agression? Excuse me while I laugh.... !!! What a crock of Shiite! Amazing!!!

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Beck on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 01:52:07 PM EST
    BB, Don't try to reason with SoccerDad. He has become the chief Palestinian/Hamas/Hezbollah propagandist and apologist around here. You can't reason with a terrorist and you can't reason with a terrorist-supporter. They only want one thing, and it is not negotiable. Be glad that Israel will do what is best for Israel.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:10:20 PM EST
    Gee speaking out against the killing of women and children gets me labeled a terrorist supporter. Gee have you people sunk that low. Are you so stupid as to think there is no other response then bombing Lebanon into the ground. The real reason I oppose it is short sighted and that the price we will all pay later will be much worse. This is something that you blood thirsty, war solves everything, neanderthals who dont posses the ability to think 2 steps ahead fail to appreciate. And I defy you to find me anything I wrote which said that what the other side did was morally acceptable. I think we are all in agreement that what they have done is bad, so there is nothing there to argue about. But labelling people unpatriotic and terrorist supporters is al that you have since you cant defend the facts.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:21:27 PM EST
    Ok here goes. Bad Hezbollah, stop launching rockets, stop killing civilians. That being said there is a lcak of proportionality in the Israeli response, and there is a remarkably callousness toward the lives of ordinary Lebanese. Bombing Dairy Farms, what the f*ck? You can (and I do) support Israel and still think they've gone off the deep end. Until this ends I'll pray for all those caught in the middle of this.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:23:17 PM EST
    soccerdad... So I'll ask again... Please explain how defending themselves...and wanting to do away with the future possibility of agression by Hezbollah is considered terrorism? And also feel free to respond about them putting rocket launchers in civilian areas... I'd love to hear you refute that...or give more excuses for it? And.... Gee speaking out against the killing of women and children gets me labeled a terrorist supporter. No...speaking out against only Israel doing it while giving Hezbollah a pass gets you labeled as a terrorist supporter! Just like in Iraq... Israel is doing everything in their power to avoid civilian casualties, but every one gets highlighted in the press.... (and jumped on by the libs) while, once again, Hezbollah (who started it) gets a pass from the press & the libs. Disgusting!

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:24:31 PM EST
    BB-
    Where is your condemnation of Hezbollah?
    Obviously trolls do not need to follow threads, they only mean to divert the discsussion to them and their silly provocations. I see no point in justifying any of the violence, it is not my thing. But since it turns you, go ahead, knock yourself out and tell us about your insatiable bloodlust.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:30:47 PM EST
    matt.... there is a lcak of proportionality in the Israeli response, I've asked this before, what exactly is a "proportional" response... (they shoot a missile indiscriminately into Lebanon for every one shot at them????) Excuse my ignorance here, but that makes no sense! At that rate, they will be shooting missiles forever! Isn't the idea to hit them hard enough to make them stop? I'm very curious to hear an explanation for this line of reasoning???

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:36:25 PM EST
    Squeaky... Why did I even consider you might actually answer a question? Too tough for you? Easier to call me a troll aye? Or..could it be you have no answer and just like to hear yourself talk nonsense? Maybe Matt will answer seeing as how you won't...(can't)? Yeah squeak...wanting Hezbollah to stop it's agression towards Israel makes me one blood thirsty guy doesn't it? You are aware that they have gone "on record" as wanting to destroy Israel ... yes? But that doesn't matter to you does it? Isreal is using bigger bombs and causing more damage ... so they are the bad guys? LOL.. you are truly pathetic!

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Peaches on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:39:40 PM EST
    BB, Squeaky is right. You are obviously here either to agitate and provoke. But, For your benefit and since you have chosen to ignore it from others here and in the press I will tell you that Hezbollah broke international law when they fired missiles at Israel and Israel has a right to respond. Their response is out of proportion because they have targeted civilians and the infrastructure necessary for a modern and civil society in Lebanon as they have continued to do in Gaza and througout the West Bank. Israel has a right top defend themselves, but they are open to be critisized whenever they kill civilains. They do not get a free pass to reak indiscriminate violence on civilains at their will because they have been victimized by terrorists. Finally, Hezbollah should be condemned for putting civilains in danger, but Israel has to show restraint when large civialins casualties will almost certainly result from missile attacks against terrorist groups. IF they are showing restraint then defend them on this basis. Likewise, lefists here will point out when they are not. Then you have a discussion-which you have proven over and over agin you are incapable of having here. Thats why I and everyone else here (the leftist-that is) have zero respect for you and believe you are a moron.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Al on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:41:41 PM EST
    BB, killing innocent Lebanese is not fighting Hezbollah, it does nothing to improve Israel's security, and it is immoral. Also, it doesn't work. Mindless misdirected revenge is not a good strategy.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by peacrevol on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:47:04 PM EST
    Bombing Dairy Farms, what the f*ck?
    hezballah is doing what terrorists have been doing for several years now and storing weapons caches and possible bombing targets near civilian occupied territories. This has been a tactic in the ME for years b/c they use that as propaganda by saying that a lot of their civilians were killed. it's sort of the same reason that the insurgents in iraq hide out downtown near busy areas.
    You can (and I do) support Israel and still think they've gone off the deep end.
    well that may be but they have also given hezbollah some opportunities. they told them they would stop giving them hell if hezbollah would release the prisoners of theirs. hezbollah apparently refused b/c it was israeli terms. it appears to me that hezbollah wants israel to attack them for propoganda reasons.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:47:24 PM EST
    BB, Let's look at the Dead, As of yesterday we've got 25 Israeli dead, and 230 Lebanese. From those we have 12 Israeli soldiers and 30 Lebanese soldiers( not hezbollah). You do the math. I don't have a problem with Israel wanting to take an approach that neutralizes Hezbollah. I do have a problem with indiscriminately bombing the everloving sh*t out of Lebanon.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by desertswine on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:48:19 PM EST
    Both sides believe that they are doing the right thing. It's a Hobbesian trap.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Slado on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 03:30:02 PM EST
    Lets be clear about something. The Lebonese citizens are not innocent. No more then the Palestinian citizens are. No more then the Japanese citizens were when we dropped the bomb on them, no more hen German citizens were when we fire bombed Dresden. No more then Afghanistani citizens were innocent when we bombed the Taliban. War sucks. But this is war. A war started by Hezzbollah and Isreal wants to win. War doesn't work on propotional response. If it did it'd never end. Propotional repsonse would me everyone dies. Patten says it best... "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. " The Lebonese have allowed Hezzbollah to operate on their territory for years. They have allowed Hezzbollah to intigrate into their society and Hezzbollah has now started a war. What do they expect? They allow these terrorists to launch missles from their territory and reighn terror on a neighbor nation. I'm sorry but the Lebonese have reaped what they sowed. After a 20year occupation and at the bequeast of the same peace activits who are now clammoring for a sease fire the isreali's left Lebanon. Then the Lebonese rebuilt part of their country and let Hezzbollah rebuild the other part and actually elected them into their government. Let Isreal do what most in Lebanon won't or can't do. Destroy a terrorist orginization in their midst that they have let become more and more violent. Basically the peace argument is an argument for appeasement. Peace is better no matter the consequences. Let the enemy use our need for peace against us because peace is always better.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 03:49:34 PM EST
    More on the Katerina like US evacuation effort. They have come up with a one liner:
    Evacuation Is a Mouse-Click Away more than 23,000 -- are being told to sit tight as the Israeli bombing continues, wait by their phones for a call, and check the embassy Web site for more information. So says undersecretary of state Nicholas Burns: "We have an open line to all American citizens. We're in touch with them by Web site." Yes, Burns assured CNN, "[The evacuation is] very well thought out." Heckuva job, Condi?
    TPM It is not a joke, as there is no phone service or electricity in much of Beirut and Southern Lebanon.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 04:13:10 PM EST
    Shorter Slado: If the U.S or any of it's allies kills you, you're not innocent. All you have to do to be guilty is to be in the wrong place. This is the stuff that totalitarianism is built on: complete and utter obeisance to any brutality in the interests of the state.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Al on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 05:01:16 PM EST
    Slado, Patton (not "Patten") was a very violent man, but he was not a genocidal maniac. He wasn't talking about killing German civilians, as you seem to be. He was talking about going into battle. By the way, you like Patton quotes? Here's another one, from Wikiquote:
    My men don't surrender. I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he has been hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight back.
    Somehow, I don't see Patton advocating attacking civilians if two of your soldiers have been captured.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 05:31:05 PM EST
    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by roger on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 05:38:03 PM EST
    Dadler, This fits well with the theory that Iran is using Hezbollah to effect power projection in Iraq. This says less about Israel than about Hezbollah

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Slado on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 05:40:04 PM EST
    Last time I checked this was a blog and the teacher (TL) isn't checking for spelling mistakes. I'm an engineer and if you want to calculate heat loss through a cooling coil i'm your man. I don't write for a living so excuse the quick typing spelling error. I'd rather not blog if I have to proofread my text. If you're going to use spelling as a way to insult my intelligence then save it. Also I realise it's not as simple as bad vs. good but my argument is no less insane then the give peace a chance at any price argument some are making. This is tough buisness but simply calling a time out won't solve it. Isreal pulled out and Hezzbollah dug in. The "World" keeps sustaining this conflict because they don't want to deal with the reality of militant Islam or the reality that most Arabs want every Jew in Isreal gone or dead. They teach hate to their children and propetuate this conflict. They can't deal that they've been defeated everytime they fight Isreal and that Isreal isn't going away. Now their strategy is to play the victim and see what they can get away with while the world community apologizes for them and blames Isreal for propetuating the conflict. Also how many of the civilians are really civilians? If a terrorist is hiding weapons in your house are you a civilian? Al, please check for spelling errors.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by dutchfox on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 05:54:47 PM EST
    soccerdad, Al, Squeaky and others who post here You might want to check out Robert Fisk on Democracy Now!'s programme today. I don't know how to do the link on this comment thingy (can anyone please give me a primer...thanks in advance) Anyway, Robert Fisk gives an eloquent discription of what's happening in Lebanon now (he has lived in Beirut for years):
    But it's a tragedy of immense proportions, because it's also tearing apart a country. In the last 24 hours we found the Israelis have turned to attacking a milk factory, Liban Lait -- it's actually the producers of milk I drink every morning in my tea -- a paper box factory, for heaven's sakes, hardly a terrorist target... The Israelis today even attacked the factory which imports Procter & Gamble goods here. We've had an ambulance convoy, a convoy of new ambulances from the United Emirates, cross from Syria into Lebanon, got attacked from the air. It's an all-out war against the economy infrastructure of a country that was at last beginning to look modern again, after the 15 years of civil war, which cost 150,000 lives. And it's very sad to see.
    I think the massacre of the innocents must obviously apply to both sides. The Israeli dead have an equal right to that claim. But the scale -- I mean, "disproportionate" is not the word for it -- the scale of the response is obscene.
    Anyway, it is important to remember that the Hezbollah crossed that border against all international law. No one gave them a referendum or a vote to cross the border and kill Israelis and capture two Israelis and start off this war. But, you see, they relied upon -- they totally relied upon the cruelty of Israel's response. And Israel, as usual, obliged them. So no one will now criticize the Hezbollah in Lebanon. But it's a catastrophe, because here is a country that began to believe in itself again after the years of civil war, and now it's the same old story. The country is being vandalized and smashed up by a country which says it believes in purity of arms. And these civilian deaths, I don't believe that they're by chance. I don't believe it was a mistake when they hit that army barracks of logistic soldiers, who are trying to repair their own country, which they have every right to do.
    I am not surprised that the MSM in this country is pro-Israel, but I'm very astounded that some of the so-called liberal blogs have side stepped this conflict. I realise that there are several important issues to discuss (elections, decreased civil and voter rights, the politics of crime and other things). That's why I'm thankful that TL has open threads like this one. I made a comment on FDL earlier today pleading shaming some of the commenters on that blog to focus themselves on the massacre in Lebanon and got shot down royally by the moderator. Yes, they've devoted some topics to the ME crisis, but IMO not enough. I mean, how much more can you say about what a twat Lieberman is? LOL Jay

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by aw on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 06:07:01 PM EST
    War is good. War solves all problems for eternity. Get tough. It works. Can't you see that?

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 06:27:05 PM EST
    Using Slado's logic all american citizens are guilty for AG and by extension all deserve to be punished. Like some said Slado is either an agitator or an idiot. Either way its a waste of bandwidth.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 06:32:56 PM EST
    No...speaking out against only Israel doing it while giving Hezbollah a pass gets you labeled as a terrorist supporter!
    As I stated earlier there is no disagreement about the other side. You must have been too busy thinking up your next well thought-out pile of horse **** to actually have read the whole post. Gee what a surprise

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 06:48:00 PM EST
    "Give Peace a Chance At Any Price" is no one's mantra. A false alternative is not a rebuttal. Israel has legitimate security concerns, but with this de-facto invasion they've crossed the line it would seem into thinking they can kill until they reach their goal. Unless they want to kill the hundreds of millions of people who outnumber them in the region, I'd say their chances of achieving any lasting security out of this are nil. There isn't an ounce of imagination or humility or "Goddamn are we full of shit or what?" self-awareness on ANY side of this right now. Period. On any side of ANYthing. Israel was founded, obviously, out of the ashes of the Holocuast; but Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Until the Israelis can accept that they came to a land and exacted a kind of revenge on the wrong people; and until the Palestinians can accept that the Holocaust was SUCH a twisted event that it couldn't HELP but create such an aftermath; and until both simply say "We are each full of sh*t and have been for decades"...ain't no real peace ever going to exist. Watching your ancestors jump out of trucks to dig their own graves then line up to get executed into them...one can understand the fathomless rage that has led Israel to become so bellicose and muscle flexing and insecure on a national emotional level. And the talk of their "enemies" is no help either. That the Palestinians hadn't a damn THING to do with Europe's crimes against European Jewry ALSO should make one shake their head in wonder at how those same victims could simply uproot people without a full notion of what it would result in.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 07:02:54 PM EST
    Thanks dutch fox, I will check out DO's FIsk interview. I try not to miss his reports. He, as far as I am concerned is one of the best. He cut his teeth in Lebanon in the early 80's, and if anyone knows the history of the area he does, as he has lived and reported much of it.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 07:09:31 PM EST
    Peaches writes:
    Their response is out of proportion because they have targeted civilians and the infrastructure necessary for a modern and civil society in Lebanon
    Of course they have. That's where the terrorist are hiding. How else do you propose they attack them? et al - Again. When involved in war you should use all force necessary to allow you to win. To do otherwise is silly. Al - Patton also said: I won't retreat. I don't like to pay for the same ground twice. (paraphrase) How many times do you Israel to pay for the same ground?

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Al on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 07:24:52 PM EST
    The "World" keeps sustaining this conflict because they don't want to deal with the reality of militant Islam or the reality that most Arabs want every Jew in Isreal gone or dead. They teach hate to their children and propetuate this conflict. (Slado)
    They teach hate to their children? Funny you should say that. Here are two sweet Israeli girls putting their name on Howitzer shells destined for Lebanon. Who knows, those shells may kill some sweet Lebanese girls, who are about as guilty of supporting Hezbollah as these two are. And Slado, "propetuate" is not a word.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 07:33:04 PM EST
    ppj-your heart is black as coal. You will rot in h*ll.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Al on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 07:35:35 PM EST
    When involved in war you should use all force necessary to allow you to win. (PPJ)
    PPJ, it's safe to say Israel is not going to win. They haven't precisely pussyfooted about for the last 40 years, and they still haven't "won". This idea that if you bomb the shit out of everything and everyone you're going to get your way and "win" DOES NOT WORK. The only problem is that the people with the guns are too damn stupid to understand it, and they're too damn fond of just blowing up stuff.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 07:37:24 PM EST
    This is a tad off-topic, and would make a great thread on its own, but it goes to religious extremism in our own ranks, in our own society. There's an interesting series on Pat Tillman's death on ESPN'S website. And here is the most interesting, and disturbing quote, an exchange between the journalist and the Army officer who directed the first inquiry into Tillman's death. [Lt. Col. Ralph] Kauzlarich said he is confident the current probe will not result in criminal charges against the shooter or shooters. He said investigators would not still be examining the incident at all if it were not for Tillman's NFL celebrity -- he walked away from a multimillion-dollar contract with the Arizona Cardinals when he enlisted -- and the pressure brought to bear by Tillman's family on a number of Washington politicos. "His parents continue to ask for it to be looked at," Kauzlarich said. "And that is really their prerogative. And if they have the right backing, the right powerful people in our government to continue to let it happen, then that is the case. "But there [have] been numerous unfortunate cases of fratricide, and the parents have basically said, 'OK, it was an unfortunate accident.' And they let it go. So this is -- I don't know, these people have a hard time letting it go. It may be because of their religious beliefs." In a transcript of his interview with Brig. Gen. Gary Jones during a November 2004 investigation, Kauzlarich said he'd learned Kevin Tillman, Pat's brother and fellow Army Ranger who was a part of the battle the night Pat Tillman died, objected to the presence of a chaplain and the saying of prayers during a repatriation ceremony in Germany before his brother's body was returned to the United States. Kauzlarich, now a battalion commanding officer at Fort Riley in Kansas, further suggested the Tillman family's unhappiness with the findings of past investigations might be because of the absence of a Christian faith in their lives. In an interview with ESPN.com, Kauzlarich said: "When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don't believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more -- that is pretty hard to get your head around that. So I don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough." Asked by ESPN.com whether the Tillmans' religious beliefs are a factor in the ongoing investigation, Kauzlarich said, "I think so. There is not a whole lot of trust in the system or faith in the system [by the Tillmans]. So that is my personal opinion, knowing what I know." Asked what might finally placate the family, Kauzlarich said, "You know what? I don't think anything will make them happy, quite honestly. I don't know. Maybe they want to see somebody's head on a platter. But will that really make them happy? No, because they can't bring their son back." I had to read this twice to really comprehend that he was saying what he was. After thinking the obivous -- what a clueless, ignorant pr*ck -- I thought, well, at least he's honest. But his honesty reveals a childlike lack of insight into both loss and the mystery of existence. And more than a tad classless and stupid in putting this out there in public.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 08:00:24 PM EST
    Whatever chance there may have been for peace is gone now. We have to be realistic. The next generation of Muslims will despise us and everything we stand for. No capital or city will be safe. The US and Israel are sowing dragon's teeth throughout the Middle East and their bloody harvest will come in the decades ahead. Cheney was right, this war could last 50 years and not end in our lifetime. Lebanon was the last straw. It proves that everything Bin Laden said was true: "They have come to take your land and your resources; they have come to shame your women and disgrace your culture; they have come to humiliate you in front of your children and heap ignominy on your religion." Where was he wrong? Author and writer Pepe Escobar said it best: "The effect of the Israeli bombing barrage will be to draw newer, thicker waves of moderate Muslims toward political-and radical-Islam. The perception in the Arab street- as well as for most of the world's 1.4 billion Muslims-has been reinforced: the U.S./Israel axis seems to hold a license to kill Arabs with impunity." (Pepe Escobar, "Leviathan Run Amok" Asia Times)
    Link

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 08:03:24 PM EST
    But what is at stake here is not proportionality or the issue of self-defence, but symmetry and equivalence. Israel is staking a claim to the exclusive use of force as an instrument of policy and punishment, and is seeking to deny any opposing state or non-state actor a similar right. It is also largely succeeding in portraying its own "right to self-defence" as beyond question, while denying anyone else the same. And the international community is effectively endorsing Israel's stance on both counts. From an Arab point of view this cannot be right. There is no reason in the world why Israel should be able to enter Arab sovereign soil to occupy, destroy, kidnap and eliminate its perceived foes - repeatedly, with impunity and without restraint - while the Arab side cannot do the same. And if the Arab states are unable or unwilling to do so then the job should fall to those who can.
    link

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 08:54:44 PM EST
    Thanks again for the tip dutch fox. Fisk at the top of his game. Very informative from one of the most seasoned guys around. Worth a viddy

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:01:25 PM EST
    Al - Actually they have been very restrained. They have had nukes for years and haven't used them. They have tried the diplomatic route and you can see where that has gotten them. Can they win? Only when they kill enough of those who attack them. Squeaky - Nice comment. Let's take a look at what you want. You must want the Moslem terrorists to win. I base that on your criticism of Israel's hitting back harder than what you think they should. Let us face it. In a war of attrition Israel cannot win, yet that is what you call for when you piss and moan about "proportionate." i.e. In an equal killing war there are less Jews to start. There can be no "cease fire." What you have is a "pause fire" while the terrorists get more weapons. Israel withdrew in 2000, and the terrorists moved right in. What I really think about you is this. Your hatred of Bush has blinded you into becoming anti-US. Like the "Man Without A Country" I think you make statements that, deep in your heart, you do not mean, or believe. As to how you got here, I cannot say. Even if you were a Gore partisan deluxe, and even if you were convinced beyond any doubt that the SC stole the election for Bush, your bile and mean comments are unbelievable. Why? Because the very worst situation is that Bush would be around for 8 years. Did you really think the republic couldn't withstand 8 years of W? What an insult to our system your attitude is. Your smears and nasties to me are forgiven as I read them. I hack back mostly to try and keep my wits sharp. But your lack of faith in our country is sad, and says so much about you that I truly feel for you. How miserable you must be.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Lww on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:40:47 PM EST
    I love the Valerie Plame thread on top: Like talking about the weather while a tornado is bearing down. It is too funny. I have no great love for Israel. I'm not Jewish. They basically stole the land through terrorism and sneak attack,they've had numerous PMs who were hit-men, coldblooded killers. They've shown through the USS liberty, Jonathan Pollard,trading arms with our enemies, the current Aipac scandal that they could give a rats ass about America. As far as this "provocation?" Remember in late August 1939 when the Nazis and the Soviets made their non-aggression pact? Within a few weeks the Germans had their provocation and invaded Poland. Bogus. You think Israel came up with all the precision targets in Lebanon in a matter of hours after the soldiers were kidnapped? Bogus.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Lww on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:44:12 PM EST
    I forgot Operation Suzannah....

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:07:29 PM EST
    Yes, a heart of coal. Hatred so distilled that you don't even feel it. You smack your lips in pure delight at civilian casualties if they are Muslim but it is immoral, in your book, for anyone to even discuss the death of an Ex-Bush aide in any other terms than the utmost in sanctimony.
    To politicize what is beyond doubt a personal family tragedy is despicable. You should be ashamed of your actions.
    But in this case all you do is politicize. There are hundreds of personal family tragedies in Southern Lebanon. Not only are you smiling about each one of those, you are cheering for more death. That'll teach em. What a tough guy you are.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by dutchfox on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:09:37 PM EST
    Cheers, Squeaky.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:31:55 PM EST
    Oh, and you want to bring up nationalism? Well, nationalism has been one of the favorite conceits of many "patriots" who applauded their nation on while it commiitted atrocities in their name. So don't lecture me on nationalism or question my love for America. It is the love that makes me shrink back in horror at what our leaders are doing in my name.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:43:17 PM EST
    When in doubt beat up the weak child in the schoolyard and that's what Israel is doing illegally and immorally against the Lebanese with our tax funded weapons including the recent shipment of bunker buster bombs they received from America. Coindidence? Israel doesn't have the balls to go after Syria or Iran who are really behind this. And to Ken Mehlman: Nous somme tous Libanais.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Al on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:51:39 PM EST
    Actually they have been very restrained. They have had nukes for years and haven't used them.
    Oh yes, that's admirable. Specially because nuclear weapons are a proven deterrent against guerrillas. It's a wonder the Israeli military have been so restrained.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:55:54 PM EST
    No ppj, I am not for any deaths. Period. You and your pals are doing everything possible to insure war as a perpetual state. They have already coined it the Long War. Your bedwetter brigade is having wet dreams over the hope of preemptive attacks. Tried and true fascism 101. Fear is the essential ingredient that keeps the machine running. And you have plenty of that Mr. Chicken Little. The neocons see great advantage in war and terrible liabilities with peace. War is our foreign policy and will continue on to be our main export. And ppj couldn't be happier at the prospect of winning someday. A carrot on a stick that perpetually stays the same distance from his nose.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 11:01:26 PM EST
    Squeaky You are the guy calling for the Jews and the Moslems to kill each other in equal mumbers. Are you in capable of understanding that what you are doing is for millions of Jews to be killed, because what will happen is that, if Israel doesn't use technology, they will be over ran? Know what Squeaky? I think that suits you just fine because Israel is an allie of the US.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by dutchfox on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 11:12:47 PM EST
    never get this Israel backing all the time. When are our governments going to realise it's the most corrupt country in the Middle East. For a start it shouldn't even exist. How can you take land from one country to make another, taking land from a once-majority Arab population, and handing it over to the Jews to make a Jewish state? In 1922, there was only 11% Jews in the area. Due to poor control by our own country, a load of Jews flocked there after World War I, and especially after WWII. Now you can understand the idea of creating a Jewish state after WWII, but not in a predominantly Muslim area, particularly as, according to one Muslim lad I spoke to, it is in their beliefs that god said there should never be an Jewish state again. Now I don't know the background on that, nor am I religious, but there's obviously going to be tension if you take away land from some people, and hand it over to someone else. Now, I'm sure my views aren't shared entirely there... ...but then there's other things. Everyone knows Israel has nuclear weapons, but they shouldn't have them in the same way Iran and North Korea shouldn't, but that's hardly ever publicised. You don't see the powerful nations turning on Israel... no. And the way they are dealing with Lebanon shows that they are not a country to be trusted with nuclear weapons. They illegally occupy parts of Syria (the Golan Heights?), southern Lebanon, and are responsible for causing the disruption to the Palestinians who just want their own state. They have 2 soldiers captured, and so they feel it necessary to kill over 240 people so far, cause international chaos by the disruption and inconvenience of having to evacuate people and also cause disruption to the G8 conference. Instead of focusing on poverty and helping the Third World, the nations now have to concentrate on the Middle East yet again. Now I don't pretend to know anything about the situation. This is just how I view it.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by roger on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 03:56:35 AM EST
    "For a start, it (Israel) shouldnt exist" Thanks for summing up your position so well.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Aaron on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 05:00:53 AM EST
    Squeaky Please don't bring that stuff up again, you're just going to get me in trouble by my reminding the powers that be of that unfortunate and confusing incident. Over the last few days an entire team of dedicated legal professionals have been working hard behind the scenes to quash the anger and straighten out the misunderstanding that those inflammatory comments kindled. I'm currently on probation while the lawyers haggle over the details of a fair and amicable settlement in the matter. :) So please, I implore you, let it lay. Not to give it all away, but on my side of the deal I think I've at least secured unlimited pro bono legal representation from the talkleft team, following my impending arrest and incarceration for as yet unnamed charges. I thank them for their generosity. Chalk one up for me.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 05:23:11 AM EST
    LWW writes:
    You think Israel came up with all the precision targets in Lebanon in a matter of hours after the soldiers were kidnapped? Bogus.
    Uh LWW, do you not understand that Israel has intelligence operations going on at all times that tries to tell them which buildings house terrorists, where missles are stored, etc.? Al - Israel has been attacked time and again by nation states. Currently the terrorists are sponsored by nation states.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by roger on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 05:54:13 AM EST
    Jim, LWW just hates jews. There is no rational discussion to be had with him. Sadly, many others here who are normally so intelligent, and informed, seem to either be anti-semetic, or enamored of having a contrarian view of the middle east. I have personally dealt with members of Islamic Jihad. They want us dead, as much as they want the Israelis dead. They consider many leftists here to be useful idiots.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 06:20:03 AM EST
    Lets be clear about something. The Lebonese citizens are not innocent
    Slado...you sound like Ward Churchill.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by theologicus on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 06:28:32 AM EST
    The latest from Paul Rogers, of the Oxford Research Group.
    ... Whatever the full motivations of Hamas, and whether Syria and Iran are indirectly involved, the reality is that what is happening in Lebanon is beginning to evolve into a proxy war between the United States and Iran. ...
    The IDF now claims to have demolished up to half of Hizbollah's paramilitary capabilities (which include a stockpile of perhaps 12,000 rockets). That is largely propaganda for domestic consumption and hardly meshes with Hizbollah's continuing ability to launch numerous missiles each day, amounting to nearly a thousand in the past week alone. Moreover, the group is proving itself capable of doing this in an operational environment where the Israelis have total air control, can use satellite and drone reconnaissance to observe southern Lebanon in detail, and can send in squads of special forces on lightning raids when required.
    At a time like this, reports of the daily casualties, refugee flows and evacuations dominating the western news media tend to convey an underlying assumption that this is a dangerous crisis that will die down within a week or two. The very intensity of coverage implies that the dust will settle and things will return to a kind of normality. This is nonsense. What is happening is the escalation of a conflict that adds a further major war zone to Iraq and Afghanistan, with regional if not global consequences that will be felt for years to come.
    In other words the Israeli assault, besides being criminal and immeasurably perilous, is also futile. (And, yes, Hizbolla is also beneath contempt.)

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Slado on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:04:01 AM EST
    When discussing this conflict ask yourself a simple questions. If the terrorists put down their arms tomorrow would Isreal continue to attack them? If Isreal put down their arms tomorrow would the terrorists continue to attack them? You know the answer. Those who plead for peace are willing to except that Isreal must accept terrorism because the terrorists don't want them to exist. If a party has ridiculous demands (mainly your destruction) how can you deal with them normally.? Isreal is not the instigator in this conflict. As for the Lebonese they are in a tough spot I admit but they are not innocent. They know what Hezzbollah is all about and they won't/can't deal with them and in some cases have elected them to government. As for comment that US citizens are repsonsible for Iraq of course we are. It's our army isn't it? And if Saddam was capable of bombing NYC in retaliation for being invaded he would have been justified. So would the Taliban. What's that got to do with anything? Hey TL I know I'm a troll but why do my buddies Squeaky and Soccerdad get to call me names?

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by theologicus on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:18:48 AM EST
    As for the Lebanese they are in a tough spot I admit but they are not innocent. Well, then, that explains everything, doesn't it? Let those frigging brown-skined people pay for their high crimes and misdemeanors. From an OpEd in today's LA Times:
    In a week of vindictive bombardment, Israel has destroyed the infrastructure that Lebanon spent a decade building. Under the cover of misleading headlines, such as one that read "Israel Pounds Hezbollah Strongholds," Israel has in fact bombed towns and villages, provincial centers and Beirut.
    Israel has killed Christians, Sunnis and Shiites, old and young, men and women, from the great Phoenician cities of Sidon and Tyre to more humble towns -- Chtoura and Juniyah, Damour and Naame, Jiye and Baalbek, Khiam and Batrun.
    It has wrecked roads, bridges, a lighthouse, ports, tunnels, electrical pylons, water mains, fuel depots, gas stations, power plants, houses, shops, schools - and even a milk factory. It has repeatedly blasted the international airport that was the symbol of Lebanon's rebirth from 15 years of war.
    Where, when or if Lebanon will ever get the funding to rebuild what Israel has smashed remain open questions. When Israel finally relents, it will leave Lebanon without a functioning infrastructure - and the lives of nearly 4 million people altered beyond recognition.
    That, of course, is explicitly the point of this outrage. Israel's army chief bragged that he would set Lebanon back "20 years." That is what is happening - as a silent world watches.


    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:28:01 AM EST
    Theologicus, That, of course, is explicitly the point of this outrage. Israel's army chief bragged that he would set Lebanon back "20 years." That is what is happening - as a silent world watches. According to plan. Bomb them back to the stone age every 15 years or so to maintain that buffer zone,

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by theologicus on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:34:53 AM EST
    Yes, apparently they plan to occupy southern Lebanon and turn it into a "buffer zone." One can only imagine how well that will work.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Peaches on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 07:40:11 AM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ July 19, 2006 08:09 PM
    Peaches writes: Their response is out of proportion because they have targeted civilians and the infrastructure necessary for a modern and civil society in Lebanon Of course they have. That's where the terrorist are hiding. How else do you propose they attack them?
    Of course they have. That's where the terrorist are hiding. How else do you propose they attack them?
    Jim, Believe it or not, this is why I appreciate you. You don't beat around the Bush. Although your opinion is in direct oppisition to my own-you don't insult either. It has been my experience that you don't get personal or start demeaning your interlocutors until your have been personally attacked yourself. Now, bb, on the other hand... So, I appreciate you stating your views honestly, because many share your same views. But mostly, because I can't stand that bs that Israel is only killing civilains by accident. That Israel would not have to kill civilains if Hezbellah did not hide amongst them. You believe some of this and you do blame Hezbelloh for starting this (and you are right), but for you a war means you must win at all costs and civilain casualties are a necessary part of winning the war. At best, you can only try to lessen the amount killed, but not to the extent that it may cost you to lose the war. I abhor this thinking, but I respect you and concede your opinion. I think you are wrong, but I also think I understand why you may believe you are right. I also understand that you will never be dissuaded from your view as I will never be disuadeed from mine. Where does this leave us? With democracy, of course. I believe the more people that hear your opinion clearly, the greater chance we will have for peace. I don't believe most people in America share your views. I admit, it is only intuition and recent elections have given you the false belief that war is the only answer for the anti-American and anti-Israeli views currently found in the world. I hold out the belief that future elections will prove you wrong.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:14:12 AM EST
    Roger - Im wondering if you believe that collective anti-semitism is behind the demand on the part of 98% of the international community that Israel return to it's per 1967 borders? And Im also wondering if you've ever "dealt" with Gush Eminem, or any of the Kahanists?

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:17:30 AM EST
    For the sake of argument, let's say that our Israel policy is wrong and we are backing an overly aggresive state. In that case where would the fault lie? I have heard references to the Israel lobby, but I know little of where their power lies. Is it just campaign contributions? Is it the Jewish vote? I know many of you are Jewish and don't support Israel very much. I personally tend to support Israel, because I view Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorists, but we have been through that before.Please enlighten me.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by roger on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:33:01 AM EST
    Jondee, I have little desire to deal with followers of Kahane, they are about the same as Hamas. A return to the 1967 borders would be great, as long as areas like the Golan Heights arent used for artillery attacks. And in a concession to LWW, the USS Liberty attack was inexcusable.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by theologicus on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:38:19 AM EST
    Granola: Here's a recent interivew in which Profs. Walt and Mearsheimer respond to the backlash over their controversial paper on the Israel Lobby. Mother Jones INTERVIEW Here's the original article: The Israel Lobby John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt John Mearsheimer is the Wendell Harrison Professor of Political Science at Chicago, and the author of The Tragedy of Great Power Politics. Stephen Walt is the Robert and Renee Belfer Professor of International Affairs at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. His most recent book is Taming American Power: The Global Response to US Primacy.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:50:42 AM EST
    Thanks Theo, that is exactly what I was looking for. I will read it tonight.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by roger on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 08:54:03 AM EST
    Theo, Go to your MJ link and click on "Yes, it's anti-semetic". Also, the interview that you cite makes it clear that the authors came to their conclusion before doing any research. Quite professional!

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:21:14 AM EST
    Roger, calling those who disagree with your militant position anti-semitic is cowardly and typical bully behavior. You should be ashamed of yourself for stooping to such obvious low life tactics. The same bully tactics have been used to cower people into colluding with genocidal maniacs. Don't you remember. Isn't the line "We will never forget"? Or is this akin to the Libby defense of memory loss by displacement ?

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by peacrevol on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:28:33 AM EST
    But mostly, because I can't stand that bs that Israel is only killing civilains by accident. That Israel would not have to kill civilains if Hezbellah did not hide amongst them.
    but for you a war means you must win at all costs and civilain casualties are a necessary part of winning the war.
    i dont understand this thinking. hezb's war strategy is to get as close to civilian populations as possible for two reasons: a. so that israel wont attack them using large weapons or b. if israel does attack them, they can use that as propoganda to gain support. so...if israel doesnt attack them all together, then hezb can continue to attack israeli citizens at random. not an option. ok so israel can go door to door looking for them (that's what we did in iraq mostly). interesting tactic but incredibly hard to execute without giving up a lot of casualties to your own military (ie mogadishu, somalia the setting of the true blackhawk down story). and even if israel does go door to door, civilian casualties are still inevitable. it's terrible that civilians are killed, but it is the nature of war. that's why wars should only be faught as last result. if anyone is to blame for civilian casualties in lebanon, it is hezb. (unless you feel that israel should not be there in the first place) if israel does not go after hezb in civilian areas with all the force they can muster, they run a risk of losing the fight and having to face terrorism or possibly even worse terrorist ruled government.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:31:47 AM EST
    Most of the backlash responce to that paper still relys primarily on the any-discussion sabotaging charge/threat of anti-semitism. The substitution of the smear as the first line of criticism, over and against an attempted objective, point-by-point refutation, says as much about the pre-arrived-at conclusions of the critics as it does about the authors.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by theologicus on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:32:49 AM EST
    Go to your MJ link and click on "Yes, it's Anti-Semitic". I don't need to click on it, since I've already read it. Quite professional! With such a profound grasp of scholarly standards, you can undoubtedly look forward to a sterling academic career. Not that it would matter to you, but there are of course Jews, both in this country and in Israel, who (on the whole) agree with Walt and Mearsheimer.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Slado on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:40:42 AM EST
    Peacevol your barking up the wrong tree. The peace activists want peace or what they call peace at any cost. They hold Isreal to an impossible standard and while they say terrorism is bad they don't want them to do anything about it because only civilians not in Isreal matter in the counting of death. Because Iseal is a democracy they should learn to accept the death of their civilians because trying to stop it will mean non-Isreali civilians will die and that is unnacceptable. Just negotiate with Islamic radicals who want you dead. If you really try they'll listen to you. They don't question the World communities dealings with Iran and Syria, they don't question the innaffectiveness of negotiations or the UN. No these facts don't come into play. Isreal is the problem and isreal must stop. Its laughable yes but its their opinion.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Peaches on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:53:26 AM EST
    PEace, You can only look at this as a military operation. You have a belief that there is an end result--victory, in sight for Israel. But this was a very calculated attack by Hezbellah, and Iran and Syria were probably involved. They knew how Israel would respond and they knew that politically they would Hezbellah has a good chance at coming out on top as well as Iran and syria. Israel (as the US was on 9/11) was victimized by an unprovoked attack by Hezbellah. Pressure by Lebenon, Europe, the US and other Western Nations could have been brought against Hezbellah, Syria, and Iran for this violation of international law. Israel could have also responded with limited attacks as well as negotiations with Hezbellah for the release of their soldiers, while the rest of the world condemned and took measures to punish Hezbellah (and syria and Iran if connections could be established) for this crime. Instead, the world is divided between the US and Israel against everyone else. Muslems are outraged and see themselves as victims of Western aggression. Everyone forgets that Israel was victim because they are now the agrressors and are unjustly punishing a whole country for the actions of a militant wing supported by Syria and Iran operating within its borders.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:55:59 AM EST
    I dont think Roger is militant. But, when reflecting on a situation in which militants have seemingly always held far too much sway on all sides, going back 2000+ years, it's very hard not to sometimes come across that way.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by Al on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 09:59:27 AM EST
    PPJ, when you say that Israel has shown restraint in not using nuclear weapons, and that it's been attacked by nation states, are we to conclude that what you're saying is that Israel should use nuclear weapons against Lebanon? Or maybe Iran, or Syria? Is this what you're proposing? And don't tell me that it would be out of the question, because if it were, that wouldn't be restraint then.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 10:26:41 AM EST
    Peaches writes:
    Pressure by Lebenon, Europe, the US and other Western Nations could have been brought against Hezbellah, Syria, and Iran for this violation of international law.
    And I could win the lottery. On a more exact point, where have these people been for the last 6 years while Hezbellah took over Southern Lebanon? Al - You inability to understand a stated fact about a third party is astonishing. If you like trap questions: Do you still beat your wife?

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by Peaches on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:00:26 AM EST
    On a more exact point, where have these people been for the last 6 years while Hezbellah took over Southern Lebanon?
    Well, it is a little more complicated than you presume. But, I think you realize that. Lebenon was rebuilding its country and establishing a democracy after many years of civil war and after Israeel left in 2000. Hezebellah was a military faction left over from the days preceding and their power in Lebenon was being threatened when the democratic government forced Syria to leave. One of the reasons for Hezbellah's attack on Israel precipitating this. Now, the democratic and peaceful people are being punished for driving out Syria, b/c this would have never happened if Syria was still there.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:04:08 AM EST
    PPJ,Slado, BB How about being neither an American, a democrat nor a republican for a second?How about being a European, a Lebanese, an Iraqi or a Chinese? To sum up how about being open minded? You are okaying the cold blood murder of the Lebanese civilians just because you are buying the excuse for the two israeli soldiers? What if all the nations having their nationals held in Gitmo without excuse start bombing the s*** out of your house just because it happened you chose to live near a police station? It seems the same to me. Would you have the same point of view if the Cold War was still on? At least then there was an equilibrium. But hold your horses cause China is watching very carefully.Deterence remeber? Everybody loses so quit fooling around. It is not allways about taking sides. Sometimes you should just stay moral,human as a person.Especially when you have children of your own that tomorrow could be blown to pieces or be drafted in order to blow up other kids in an insane war. Oh, they will be heroes both of them i assure you.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:04:41 AM EST
    John Bolton (US Ambassador to the UN) speaking live on CNN repeats the US position on Hezbollah and what has to be done first to get a cease fire (Hezbollah's returning the 2 abducted Israeli soldiers to Israel, disarming of Hezbollah, etc.). "Nothing new" CNN concludes. Reuters reported 2 hours ago on GWB's renominating Bolton to continue as US ambassador to the UN. Note these comments:
    Ohio Republican Sen. George Voinovich, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who opposed Bolton's nomination a year ago, said on Thursday he would now support him for the job. "My observations are that while Bolton is not perfect, he has demonstrated his ability, especially in recent months, to work with others and follow the president's lead by working multilaterally," Voinovich said at a news conference. "Should the president choose to renominate him, I cannot imagine a worse message to send to the terrorists -- and to other nations deciding whether to engage in this effort -- than to drag out a possible renomination process or even replace the person our president has entrusted to lead our nation at the United Nations," Voinovich said.
    According to the CNN news update right before this news conference, the US is still blocking the possibility of the UN Security Council's officially calling for a cease fire in this conflict. Would a different US ambassador to the UN (preferably under a Democratic--and a democratically-elected--president!) lead to a different outcome in this matter? Would there be more effective diplomatic efforts to achieve a cease-fire more quickly during this conflict, to enable Israel, Lebanon and other countries to enforce UN Resolution 1559, and thus to be more effective in the "War on Terror?" Let's not forget who our current US ambassador to the UN is and the reasons why so many people opposed his confirmation in the first place. Talk about "chickens [hawks] coming home to roost!"

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:24:51 AM EST
    Here's the Washington Post transcript (in progress) of Kofi Annan's address on the Middle East and a variety of the news reports on it (various takes). The report in the Irish Examiner quotes Bolton's comments from the CNN news conference mentioned in my previous post.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by peacrevol on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:32:19 AM EST
    Pressure by Lebenon, Europe, the US and other Western Nations could have been brought against Hezbellah, Syria, and Iran for this violation of international law.
    maybe so...and as i have always said, war should always be the last result. but realisticly, what "pressure" could have been effective? hezb, iran, syria all know that we've got too many irons in the fire as it is. Lobonese pressure? riiiiiiight. it may have worked though, and perhaps they should have tried it before busting heads. but the fact of the matter is that hezbollahan militants are trying to hide behind their own civilians and try to make the rest of the world feel sorry enough for the lebonese civilians that they would side with hezb. i refuse to side w/ them on this issue b/c it's like sticking your head in a lion's mouth. they provoked retaliation and they got it. as to the fact of whether israel should have attacked, i dont like to try to answer those kinds of questions b/c in my former line of work, we just followed orders and it didnt matter what we thought. so that made it hard for us to ask ourselves if we were fighting the good fight. for that reason, i still dont like to get into that discussion.

    Re: Israel- Lebanon Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 20, 2006 at 11:37:02 AM EST
    Et al... Just a quick comment: Over the last 40 years or so, just about every major country in the world has suffered some sort of "Islamic" terrorist attack .... It has become very apparent to most people in the world that there is currently an assault on civilization by the radical arm of Islam. Their aim is to control the world and kill anyone who is not with them. They can't (won't) be reckoned with or appeased in any way. The time has come for the rest of the civilized world to respond to this threat and rid the earth of this vermin once and for all... A basic understanding of these facts is required before any sort of conversations about this subject have any meaning.... Peaches.... Squeaky is right. You are obviously here either to agitate and provoke. This is a lefty blog. I am here to learn how the other half thinks and provide opinions from my side... period. I don't call anybody a troll or use snide remarks unless they are used on me first. I have asked several people here (including you and squeaky) questions that go unanswered.... (I know it's easier to call me a troll and move on) which says a lot about many on here. If you don't want to debate anything...just say so and spare me your attempts at humor or name calling. Thanks.... Having said that...I will respond to your comments.. Their response is out of proportion because they have targeted civilians and the infrastructure necessary for a modern and civil society in Lebanon It's not your call to say what the proportion is or should be. You're not the one being shot at..... (Still waiting for what you think the response should be) Also....they are targeting infrastructure in an attempt to cripple Hezbollah from being supplied (re-armed) so they don't have to go through this again in another 5 years. IF they are showing restraint then defend them on this basis I believe there are showing great restraint. Considering the