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Protest in Phoenix

By TChris, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:01:12 AM EST
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by TChris

The Maricopa County Sheriff's aggressive approach to the arrest of undocumented aliens resulted in a protest in downtown Phoenix this morning. About 300 people attended the rally.

"This is an injustice. We're not criminals, so we're here to show them that we have courage and that we're worthy of respect," Nadia Meza, 30, of Phoenix, a member of the group Immigrants Without Border that organized the rally.

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    Protest in Phoenix | 32 comments (32 topical)
    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:21:59 AM EST
    If we cannot deport illegal aliens, why have a border at all? Should we let all who sneak across stay? Should we even try to stop anyone at the border?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#2)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:45:31 AM EST
    Immigrants Without Borders? Now, what does that say? Where is the INS when we need them?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:04:21 PM EST
    Efforts to keep our brothers and sisters from the south from coming to the north is all just pure racism disguised as an immigration/anti-terrorism issue. Personally, I think that we should do away with all of our borders. Let's just unite all of North, Central and South America and become one giant super power. (That way, we wouldn't have to go all the way to the middle east to invade countries for their oil; we could enjoy the benefits of the oil fields in South America). What difference does it really make if all of us are free to travel, live or work anywhere in the entire Americas that we want to? Viva la Unity!

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#4)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:17:38 PM EST
    drones. the answer is flying drones. tens of thousands, roaming our free skies like hi-tech birds of prey. with cameras and lazer beams and other cool stuff. the monied classes of mexico and the u.s. need to have their collective heads clunked together like moe would. i'm going to ride the trolley to the border and find a good tamale cart. that a good tamale cart may be an oxymoron, i am both moronic and breathe oxygen, so i make it work. viva la raza!!

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:28:39 PM EST
    I've only gotten smarta** answers so far from the open borders crowd. Anyone care to post a serious response?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:39:35 PM EST
    Posted by Granola
    I've only gotten smarta** answers so far from the open borders crowd. Anyone care to post a serious response?
    If we cannot deport illegal aliens, why have a border at all? Should we let all who sneak across stay?
    Do away with the borders. Let anyone who wants to come here do so and let's welcome them with open arms.
    Should we even try to stop anyone at the border?
    No. See answer above.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:52:08 PM EST
    OK- so you were serious. Does that include people from non-contiguous countries? If Hamas loaded a freighter with 50,000 Palestinians, would we be required to admit them? What if Ireland empties their prisons and loads them onto C-130s would we need to let them in also? Is there a line to be drawn anywhere?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#8)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:57:49 PM EST
    I'm still trying to get over the guy who advocates taking over the entire hemisphere so we can be an even bigger superpower. I'm sure his Southern brothers would just love that. Why stop at the the hemisphere? Let's just conquer the whole world and rechristen it the United States of Earth so no one needs any passports or visas. It would be so much simpler.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:07:25 PM EST
    Granola cruncher wrote
    OK- so you were serious. Does that include people from non-contiguous countries? If Hamas loaded a freighter with 50,000 Palestinians, would we be required to admit them? What if Ireland empties their prisons and loads them onto C-130s would we need to let them in also? Is there a line to be drawn anywhere?
    I've never heard of such a foolish suggestion! Of course we have to be rational and draw lines. Otherwise we would have pure chaos here. Anyone who wants to live in United America should be willing to obey our laws and/or not have a proven record of being a criminal. We should never let anyone but law-abiding, hard working people into this country, exactly the sort of people that make up the majority of our brothers and sisters from the south, as time and history has proven over and over again. See? Immigration problem solved.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#10)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:16:06 PM EST
    Solved if you are a simpleton. Did it not occur to you that the numbers of people who would come if those were the only restrictions would overwhelm our ability to provide housing, schools, employment, infrastructure, etc.? Do you not comprehend the envoronmentsal destruction the drastic increase to outr population that would result? Are you oblivious to the social consequences to the less developed countries if all of their most talented and industrious citizens were free to live here? If you actually cannot understand these things you are hopeless. If you just haven't bithered to think, it's about time to start.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:21:07 PM EST
    Solved if you are a simpleton. Did it not occur to you that the numbers of people who would come if those were the only restrictions would overwhelm our ability to provide housing, schools, employment, infrastructure, etc.?
    Whose ability? If there were no borders, then would have combined EVERYTHING for the entire American continent. You are thinking like a silly isolationist.
    Do you not comprehend the envoronmentsal destruction the drastic increase to outr population that would result?
    See answer above.
    Are you oblivious to the social consequences to the less developed countries if all of their most talented and industrious citizens were free to live here?
    See answer above.
    If you actually cannot understand these things you are hopeless. If you just haven't bithered to think, it's about time to start.
    Save your contrived outrage for someone else, silly boy. And go read a book or something and stop wasting your time in life.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:21:39 PM EST
    It is not a suggestion- it is an attempt to call out the open borders people and make them either draw a line or state that they are willing to let anyone and everyone in. So,once they are not law abiding can we deport them? What laws do they have to break before we can deport them? How do we keep Mexican criminals out?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:24:19 PM EST
    It is not a suggestion- it is an attempt to call out the open borders people and make them either draw a line or state that they are willing to let anyone and everyone in. So,once they are not law abiding can we deport them? What laws do they have to break before we can deport them? How do we keep Mexican criminals out?
    If they were all citizens of the United American Continent, then nobody could be deported! You put criminals in jail, just like we always have. Pretty easy, huh, bubba tub?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#14)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:31:38 PM EST
    Are you for real or are you spoofing to mock "open borders" advocates?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:35:49 PM EST
    Deconstructionist Are you for real or are you spoofing to mock "open borders" advocates?
    Yes.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:42:33 PM EST
    OK- so I'm back to no answers from the open borders people. Where is the line between "we can't deport them" and "we welcome any and all who want to come"?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:47:04 PM EST
    OK- so I'm back to no answers from the open borders people. Where is the line between "we can't deport them" and "we welcome any and all who want to come"?
    There is no line, don't you see? If everyone was a citizen of the same country, no one could be deported anywhere! Think John Lennon's Imagine, tap the ruby slippers together three times and you can be there, hoss.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:57:13 PM EST
    That's real cute buddy, but it got old several posts ago. You're not funny.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:10:26 PM EST
    Granola wrote:
    That's real cute buddy, but it got old several posts ago. You're not funny.
    Just because you say my comments aren't funny doesn't mean that other people reading this thread are not enjoying them. It selfish and insensitive of you to suggest otherwise. Besides, I was dead serious. Now all you have to do is learn how to deal with, sweet cheeks.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#20)
    by jen on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:03:57 PM EST
    Do you people honestly think everyone *wants* to come live here? you're joking, right? Many want to visit disney world, true. Others want to visit relatives. The only ones who want to come *live* here are pretty much desperate and can't make a go of it where they are. IOW the USA is a last hope, not first choice. Help Mexico's economy and the border would be tighter than a drum. Our only concern would be keeping OUR citizens from going to mexico and coming back with cheap prescription meds.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:09:50 PM EST
    So you believe that if they want to come we should let them in?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#22)
    by jen on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:13:19 PM EST
    the process should be easier than it is now.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:42:48 PM EST
    We've had this discussion before. Immigration is just a matter of supply and demand. If there were no jobs, people wouldn't come. And as long as there is work, they will continue to come, no matter what the law says. It's a social issue, and you can't alter social realities by passing laws that criminalize social behaviors. That's why Prohibition was a failure, why the "War on Drugs" is just a PR slogan, and why making abortion illegal would not stop women from getting abortions.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 06:45:51 PM EST
    23. We've had this discussion before. Immigration is just a matter of supply and demand. If there were no jobs, people wouldn't come. And as long as there is work, they will continue to come, no matter what the law says. It's a social issue, and you can't alter social realities by passing laws that criminalize social behaviors. That's why Prohibition was a failure, why the "War on Drugs" is just a PR slogan, and why making abortion illegal would not stop women from getting abortions.
    There are more incentives to come here than just "jobs". "Birthright citizenship" being one of them. Anyway it is much easier to close a border and decline to give illegals any of the "carrot" type benefits they currently acrue by sneaking here then it is to solve intractable problems of human nature. If the US border was HARD to cross, and there were no real incentives to come here, then people might stay in Mexico and other South American countries and deal with their governments there.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 07:04:30 PM EST
    cib-you mean like the Berlin wall used to be?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 07:43:36 PM EST
    Posted by Cymro July 14, 2006 04:42 PM We've had this discussion before. Immigration is just a matter of supply and demand. If there were no jobs, people wouldn't come. And as long as there is work, they will continue to come, no matter what the law says. It's a social issue, and you can't alter social realities by passing laws that criminalize social behaviors. That's why Prohibition was a failure, why the "War on Drugs" is just a PR slogan, and why making abortion illegal would not stop women from getting abortions.
    Should we abolish personal property as well. I would like a Corvette and I don't have one, but my neighbor has three. Can I take one? He has the supply and I have the demand. Why criminalize me taking one for my family? Why is murder illegal? That law sure hasn't worked, thousands are still murdered every year. Isn't that just a "social behavior"?

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:06:19 PM EST
    Granola:
    [1] Should we abolish personal property as well.
    [2] I would like a Corvette and I don't have one, but my neighbor has three. Can I take one?
    [3] He has the supply and I have the demand. Why criminalize me taking one for my family?
    [4] Why is murder illegal? That law sure hasn't worked, thousands are still murdered every year. Isn't that just a "social behavior"?
    Answers: 1. No. 2. No -- see 1. 3. Because theft of private property is a crime. 4. You're kidding, right? If you can't tell the difference between crimes like theft and murder, and social issues like immigration, abortion, and drug use, then we cannot have a sensible conversation. Do some research before trying to discuss something you don't know anything about.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 06:58:48 AM EST
    osted by Squeaky July 14, 2006 08:04 PM cib-you mean like the Berlin wall used to be?
    That wall was to keep people in. We want a wall, or virtual wall (could be sensors and other electronics) to do their traditional job and keep people out.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:06:04 AM EST
    If you can't tell the difference between crimes like theft and murder, and social issues like immigration, abortion, and drug use, then we cannot have a sensible conversation. Do some research before trying to discuss something you don't know anything about.
    Illegal immigration is a crime. Hiring illegals should also be a crime. If it was so, and carried real penalties, the job market for these people would dry up. We could then work on a legitimate "guest worker" program rather than the many farces that have been proposed up to this point. Classical political theory regards control of ones territorial integrity as a necessity for sovereignty of a nation. Whilst I agree the 'drug war', is for the most part a failure (I'd decriminalize some of the drugs, focus more on treatment, repeal some of the unconstitutional laws, and attack the remaining illegal drug marketsPRICING STRUCTURE, but that's another conversation)my belief is that a 'war' on illegal immigration would be far easier to win. They mostly come for incentives and because their is a lack of enforcement or meaningful punishment. Remove most of the incentives, up the punishments, build a fence of some type, and start a large but well-regulated guest worker program and most of the problems would be solved.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#30)
    by jen on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:09:48 AM EST
    Hiring illegal aliens *is* illegal. Why no one bothers to enforce those laws as enthusiasticaly as they go after illegals is beyond me. I think if tnose laws were enforced a bit more then yeah, the jobs would dry up.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#31)
    by Deconstructionist on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 09:25:46 AM EST
    One who ascribes to the "law and economics" approach might rationalize it this way: A certain amount of immigrant labor is beneficial to the economy but a surplus of such laborers has negative consequences. The cost and difficulty of devising and implementing an "official" system which "matches" the supply of labor to the demand is not only great but the political impediments to acceptance makes it unlikely to occur. Actually aggressively enforcing the laws against both illegal immigration and the employment of illegal immigrant workers is the most undesirable thing both economically and politically. Thus, the "best available" solution is an "unofficial" system which largely looks the other way as to immigrants supplying the demand but uses the law to the extent that it keeps the "supply" in some reasonable balance with the demand and ameliorates the most strident opposition (from both ends of the debate) to some degree.

    Re: Protest in Phoenix (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 11:11:58 AM EST
    Posted by Cymro July 14, 2006 11:06 PM Granola: [1] Should we abolish personal property as well. [2] I would like a Corvette and I don't have one, but my neighbor has three. Can I take one? [3] He has the supply and I have the demand. Why criminalize me taking one for my family? [4] Why is murder illegal? That law sure hasn't worked, thousands are still murdered every year. Isn't that just a "social behavior"? Answers: 1. No. 2. No -- see 1. 3. Because theft of private property is a crime. 4. You're kidding, right? If you can't tell the difference between crimes like theft and murder, and social issues like immigration, abortion, and drug use, then we cannot have a sensible conversation. Do some research before trying to discuss something you don't know anything about.
    I know far too much about it. Why don't you do a little research on the consequences of illegal immigration. How can you draw such a clear line between crimes you approve of (social issues) and theft and murder? They are sneaking into the country and STEALING our tax dollars. Their labors may enrich some, but the costs are passed down to the communities they live in, to the schools, hospitals, social services and law enforcement.

    Protest in Phoenix | 32 comments (32 topical)