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Wednesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 09:55:11 AM EST
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Your turn. Be aware some new right-wing commenters have discovered TalkLeft. A few are interested in reasonable and civil discussion but several are here just to mock or stir up trouble. Don't feed the trolls, and when I return, troll comments and insulting comments will be deleted. Otherwise, enjoy the day.

To get you started, check out Think Progress -- the head of DOJ's Office of Legal Counsel told the Senate yesterday "The President is always right." They even have the video.

And Rudy Giuliani's ex-wife Donna Hanover has taken a gig as AOL's online love and sex coach. "You could easily imagine what her advice would have been to Judith Nathan, the current Mrs. Rudy Giuliani, who began the relationship while he was still married to Hanover."

One more: Attytood, telling America's news directors to cancel Bush's "fear factor."

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    Wednesday Open Thread | 60 comments (60 topical)
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by scribe on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 12:15:16 PM EST
    Let's not forget, when talking about the Office of Legal Counsel Attorney telling us "the president is always right" that the OLC opinions (like John Yoo's Torture Memo) historically are treated as having (something close to) the force of law. It's bad enough that anyone in the government service would say something like that attorney did. That someone in his position blurts it out shows just how deeply the rot has gone.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by desertswine on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 12:15:38 PM EST
    From the Agonist:
    From 1936 to 1939 CEOs earned 82 times what the average worker made. From 1940 to 1945 CEOs earned 66 times what the average worker made. From 1945 to 1949 CEOs earned 49 times what the average worker made. From 1950 to 1959 CEOs earned 47 times what the average worker made. From 1960 to 1969 CEOs earned 39 times what the average worker made. From 1970 to 1979 CEOS earned 40 times what the average worker made. From 1980 to 1989 CEOs earned 69 times what the average worker made. From 1990 to 1999 CEOs earned 187 times what the average worker made. From 2000 to 2003 CEOs earned 367 times what the average worker made.
    What the...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by desertswine on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 12:21:25 PM EST
    BRADBURY: It's under the Law of War that we -- LEAHY: Was the president right or wrong? BRADBURY: -- the president is always right, Senator.
    Who does he think he is... the Pope?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 12:21:50 PM EST
    The House overwhelmingly passed the Internet Gaming Prohibition thingy. Thanks Uncle Sam....and screw you too. I guess when I fire up the bong and play a multi-table tourney I'm like Lex Luthor in the eyes of Uncle Sam. The audacity and stupidity of the House leaves me dumbfounded. Judging by the vote count...it's not just Repubs, though Repubs sponsored this travesty. Freedom has few friends in Washington.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 12:28:48 PM EST
    Way to break it down dwine. Funny how unions were strong when the numbers were at their most equitable. 69X under Reagan...and the implementation of "trickle down". Since then all I see is an upside-down waterfall straight to the top.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Johnny on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    Anyone have a chart of purchasing power trending vs. wage trends? I am starting to suspect that people today are much lower paid than they were 50 or more years ago.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Try this, Johnny.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 01:11:18 PM EST
    Oddly enough, I'd imagine the same or even greater increases in multiples are extant in, say, Mick Jagger's income v. his roadies, truck drivers and the folks that stamp out his dvds. How about Tom Cruise? Howard Stern? Lance Armstrong? Etc.? Why doesn't anyone complain about similarly atmospheric non-CEO incomes?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 01:31:22 PM EST
    Why doesn't anyone complain about similarly atmospheric non-CEO incomes?
    Mick Jagger, Tom Cruise, Howard Stern, and Lance Armstrong do not directly employee thousands of people on an everyday basis. For example: * Exxon Mobile - 83,700 * Wal-Mart - 1,800,000 * General Motors - 335,000 * DaimlerChrysler - 382,724

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 01:44:38 PM EST
    macro, agreed, but what does the number of directly employed matter? The only conclusion I can draw from your comment is that someone who provides employment for 1.8MM people should be paid really well. Better, anyway, than someone who doesn't.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 02:13:32 PM EST
    macro, agreed, but what does the number of directly employed matter?
    SUO, All due respect, I think you are making an apples to oranges comparison in regards to entertainers vs. CEO's of major corporations. Demand for entertainers is completely different than demand for commodity goods and services. Commodity goods and services are what most large corporations manufacture, distribute, supply, etc...
    The only conclusion I can draw from your comment is that someone who provides employment for 1.8MM people should be paid really well. Better, anyway, than someone who doesn't.
    I also think individuals at the top of an organization should be well compensated. But they should be compensated within reason. Lately, some of these compensation packages have been obscene.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 02:14:09 PM EST
    Darn... That last post responding to SUO was from me.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 02:34:37 PM EST
    Commodity goods and services are what most large corporations manufacture, distribute, supply, etc...
    You mean like Mick's cds? Tom's dvd's? Howard and Lance's books? Tiger's shirts/balls/clubs/whatever? These guys make unbelievably big money and likely have the power to decree that some, anyway, of the minions who make/distribute/etc. their goods be paid more - but they don't. Of course the reason they don't make such a decree is because the response would probably be "Sure. But the extra expense is coming out your your paycheck." It is somewhat an apple/oranges comparison, but CEO's are not the only exorbitantly paid folks who get paid that way on the backs of low-paid earners...and could change it if they wanted.
    But they should be compensated within reason.
    Similar to many of these conversations, it all comes down to a matter of degrees. One person's "within reason" is another's "exorbitant" and still another's "not enough."

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 02:38:02 PM EST
    One difference is that entertainers and sports figures cannot artificially manipulate the "market value" for their compensation as can top-level corporate executives. I'd agree that the "market value" for top-levle entertainers and sports figures bears no rational relationship to the economic, social or cultural worth of what they do but they simply benefit from where the market is they don't have much control over it. CEOs on the other hand both singularly within their organizations and collectively across the economy have significant ability to manipulate their own compensation.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 03:00:20 PM EST
    Decon, Are you suggesting that co's hiring CEO's (and other top execs) are not affected by the laws of supply and demand similar to those co's who "hire" Tom and Tiger? If co A will pay a CEO 10X, why would he go to work for coB who's only offering 5X? If co A will give their CEO 10X "manipulation" influence on his own pay package, why would he go to work for co B who's only offering 5X "manipulation" influence? Tiger could decree that Nike manufacture his golf balls in the US instead of China, but he doesn't do so. Why not? Because Phil Night would likely say "Sure. But the extra expenses will come out of your paycheck." The same goes for Mick's cds, Tom's dvds, etc.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 03:38:44 PM EST
    Two differences I see is the entertainers/athletes have artistic/athletic talents that some consider priceless. And they are small potatos as oppose too the CEO of Virgin Records, Nike, or Miramax. Fair point that they are in the position to apply pressure to increase wages in their industries.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Aaron on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 04:38:16 PM EST
    At U.S. Urging, Court Throws Lamberth Off Indian Case

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Aaron on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 04:41:31 PM EST
    [The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit cited Lamberth's own words to illustrate why he should be removed from the case, Cobell v. Kempthorne , including a July 2005 opinion in which he called the Interior Department "a dinosaur -- the morally and culturally oblivious hand-me-down of a disgracefully racist and imperialist government that should have been buried a century ago, the pathetic outpost of the indifference and anglocentrism we thought we had left behind."]

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Aaron on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 05:03:02 PM EST
    [Last year, one fellow judge, speaking anonymously, said: "He's been driven beyond the limit of his patience by these people. ] [Lamberth has ignored appellate rulings and accused the government of "falsification, spite and obstinate litigiousness" with "no legal or factual basis." ] ["the entire record in this case tells the dreary story of Interior's degenerate tenure as Trustee-Delegate for the Indian trust -- a story shot through with bureaucratic blunders, flubs, goofs and foul-ups, and peppered with scandals, deception, dirty tricks and outright villainy -- the end of which is nowhere in sight."] ["Although the July 12 opinion contains harsh -- even incendiary -- language, much of that language represents nothing more than the views of an experienced judge who, having presided over this exceptionally contentious case for almost a decade, has become 'exceedingly ill disposed towards [a] defendant' that has flagrantly and repeatedly breached its fiduciary obligations."]

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 05:58:33 PM EST
    I still havnt seen anyone offer anything remotely resembling an explanation for the monumental discrepency between what the average worker and the average ceo make. "Why dosnt anyone ever complain about what Mick Jagger and Tiger Woods make", (who says they dont?) is an irrelevant red herring in the context of the original observation.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 05:59:43 PM EST
    R.I.P Syd Barrett. Shine on.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 06:42:25 PM EST
    Here is a cool piece by Sid Barrett via C&L Great visuals.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 06:47:54 PM EST
    oops.... I was the one caught in the storm above.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 06:53:07 PM EST
    Fubar over at Needlenose has been running a series of pictures with the caption "Had Enough?" Today is entry 11: Indicted Republicans Check out the whole series.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimcee on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 07:01:44 PM EST
    As someone who has worked hard all my adult life I know I try to get the top dollar for what I do. I have taken jobs for less when I liked the client or the work but I always earned as much as I could. Why should it be any different for a CEO? A CEO doesn't serve in the interests of the worker he serves the stockholders. If the stockholders choose to pay the CEO an exorbinant salary that is thier choice. The stockholders on the otherhand are most likely to be large pension plans such as TIAA-CREF (Teachers), AARP plans, most mutual fund offerings, 401Ks, etc which represent the average person who is trying to save for retirement. So a question: If the stockholders (retirees et al) can keep thier money growing by overpaying some flashy executive who in turn runs the business to higher profits thus higher returns for the stock holders what is wrong with that? Don't you want gramma and gramps to retire comfortably? Why not? That the workers get a perceived smaller share of the pie is what happens when you think the world owes you a living. If you don't like working for others because the CEO is paid too much for your tastes then start your own business, be your own CEO and then see how much you want to pay the help. This is nothing more than resurgent "Wobblie" intellectual dishonesty and class envy wrapping itself in the fabric of faux moralism. Man I thought people grew out of this nonsensical world-view half a century ago.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 07:08:37 PM EST
    Major wind and rain storm today in NYC, I was caught in it. Cooled me off. But tornados in Westchester???? Never heard of that and I have lived here all my life. link via HuffPo.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 08:23:51 PM EST
    Anon - You like scandal? How about un-indicted Democracts?
    "I want to deal with you guys awhile before I make any transactions at all, period.... After we've done some business, well, then I might change my mind...." ..."I'm going to tell you this. If anybody can do it -- I'm not B.S.-ing you fellows -- I can get it done my way." he boasted. "There's no question about it."...
    If I didn't know better I would think that was Congressman Murtha. Wait. That was Congressman Murtha.
    "You give us the banks where you want the money deposited," offered one of the bagmen. "All right," agreed Murtha. "How much money we talking about?"
    Murtha: At this point, [This is where the available videotape ends] you know, we do business together for a while. Maybe I'll be interested and maybe I won't.... Right now, I'm not interested in those other things. Now, I won't say that some day, you know, I, if you made an offer, it may be I would change my mind some day.
    Yeah. Virture untold, eh? Tell us more, Anon. You know, I bet you didn't even know this about Murtha. comment by PPJakaJim

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 08:32:13 PM EST
    Here is a new Hilary bashing piece by Lois Romano Washington Post Staff Writer. Our liberal press at work. Even the top DC PR spin firms couldn't beat this hit piece. Well, actually maybe if they paid a little more.....

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 08:36:36 PM EST
    Oh, and I have met her. My experience was that she was extraordinarily warm and had an extremely powerful presence. WaPo Pure spin, and starting early, very early.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 08:40:30 PM EST
    Wow. Yet another second hand smear from our tireless resident messenger boy and purveyer of such. How about telling us again about what a bunch of heros the Iran Contra protagonists were Jim; then look up the word hypocrite in the dictionary.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 08:41:25 PM EST
    That was me.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 09:13:55 PM EST
    jimcee - Just because you've "worked hard all your adult life" you think the world owes you a living? Of course you dont think that way; it's just those wobblie types that obviously havnt worked as hard as you have. But dont worry, long as everythings jake with ole jimcee, screw everyone else.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 09:48:04 PM EST
    Btw, speaking of intellectual dishonesty, the "smaller piece of the pie" isnt perceived , it's an irrefutable fact born out by the numbers. And maybe the "reponsibility" that executives have to workers is the same responsibility that workers have to executives: a certain trust founded on common decency, fair dealing and the recognition that life loses most of it's dignity if mutual predation is the most that we can expect from each other.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:57:37 AM EST
    LMAO

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Johnny on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:58:13 AM EST
    Above by me.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 04:54:14 AM EST
    Jondee - The link provides the FBI tape content and is very explicit. If you defend those actions then you have no moral grounds on which to attack/comment on corruption in Congress by anyone.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 04:54:46 AM EST
    above by PPJakaJim

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:58:19 AM EST
    ppj - You're so pathetically transparent. I suppose Murtha should consider himself fortunate that he dosnt have a son, daughter, or wife involved in any delicate, classified operations or The Spectator and you would be making sure that everyone knew about. Once again, your selective moral indignation, (forever in the service of the chimperor) is underwhelming.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:59:22 AM EST
    That was me.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimcee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:46:50 AM EST
    Jondee, I have worked for large corporations with rather expensive CEOs and I quit to work for myself and just about anyone can do it. I insure myself, bid my own work, do the work myself and earn a decent but not extravgant living. Wasting time in one's life whining about how others are paid too much is silly and immature. There is nothing hold back and individual in this country if that person applies himself and acts responsibly. Obviously you have never run a business or you would understand that the stockholders are the ones who control who is in charge of a company unless of course they are second level stock holders who cannot vote for the board of directors. You know corporations such a the NYTimes. Class envy is a prerequisite step towards creating the sort of thing that causes social revolutions and we know how well those have worked out for the workers. 100,000,000 dead and counting. As I said this is just the old "Wobblies" agitprop all over again.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 07:16:26 AM EST
    We tried your way too Jimcee...that's the way it was around 1900. Lucky for the US, the powers that be decided to throw the proles some bones...Social Security, Min. Wage, Workplace Standards, Anti-trust, etc. If those bones had not been thrown, I don't think this country would exist today. The tide is changing back to the early 1900's...push it too far and you risk the whole mother coming down. Eventually, the proles take up arms when the inequity reaches absurd levels.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 08:15:41 AM EST
    Jondee - I say it again. The Left has practiced moral selectivity in how it condems people. Murtha was an un-indicted co-conspirator in the Abscam scandal, and has enjoyed years of his status being ignored, mostly because the MSM only focused on:
    Still, only a brief, 13-second snippet of a tape of the FBI's undercover meeting with Murtha is widely available. The agent tells him, "I went out, I got the $50,000. OK? So what you're telling me, OK, you're telling me that that's not what you know...." Murtha replies, "I'm not interested. I'm sorry. At this point [emphasis Murtha's]."
    The rest of the tape provides back ground that is possible to ignore. So your comments only further reveal how hypocritical you are. As for leaks, I would put the AS up against the NYT anytime. Repeat after me: Valerie Plame aka Joe Wilson's wife and Travel agent was not and is not a covert agent. Don't believe me? Ask the SP. kdog - Actually with the introduction of 401K's, IRA's and other plans, the ordinary worker has the absolute world's greatest way to get rich. It does require a small bit of common sense. i.e. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. As a PP you know that an all-in bet can break you. Health care is the greatest problem we face. The cost is running way above inflation, the result of new equipment and drugs as well as the iron triangle of doctors-hospitals-insurance. The only solution is national health care, but as long as some workers are covered and others not, the political capital for change won't be there. Plus, as Mike Ditto pointed out, the current admin/billing groups will fight this tooth and nail. PPJakaJim

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 08:55:32 AM EST
    The Left has practiced moral selectivity in how it condems people.
    possibly the most hypocritical thing you have ever written, and thats saying something. The rest is the usual recyled crap.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:03:26 AM EST
    et al - I guess innocent until proven guilty applies only to Lefties. Link So 'innocent until proven guilty' shouldn't apply to Murtha in this case because he's not a Lefty. Glad you're here to help us reason out these things, PPJ.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:34:47 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - Why not try and use something based on the context? Oh hum.... SD - I'm just speaking truth to BS, big guy.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:06:56 PM EST
    PPJ, to quote a fictitous Southerner: That's a joke, son. Don't ya get it? As for context, it seems you are selective when it comes to when the concept of "Innocent until proven guilty" applies to a given case. Anyone can see this for themselves by reading the whole thread via my link. A person of ordinary intelligence should be able to put into context your comments about a fellow who unlike Murtha at present was actually under arrest for a specific crime at the time you made an 'et al' snark attack. I link, everyone who isn't lazy can decide. TTFN

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:07:00 PM EST
    PPJ, to quote a fictitous Southerner: That's a joke, son. Don't ya get it? As for context, it seems you are selective when it comes to when the concept of "Innocent until proven guilty" applies to a given case. Anyone can see this for themselves by reading the whole thread via my link. A person of ordinary intelligence should be able to put into context your comments about a fellow who unlike Murtha at present was actually under arrest for a specific crime at the time you made an 'et al' snark attack. I link, everyone who isn't lazy can decide. TTFN

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:20:24 PM EST
    The uber-wingnuts go over the deep end. Political hackery that even makes Weldon look reasonable. Spencer Ackerman dissects the latest insanity regarding the new claim that WMD's have been found in Iraq.
    Hoekstra and Santorum are implying that the CIA contains actual fifth columnists. "Good grief," sighs Jane Harman, Hoekstra's Democratic counterpart on the House intelligence committee. "I am not aware of anyone [in the intelligence community] who harbors sympathy for Al Qaeda. I think that is a reckless claim." It's easy to see why Santorum and Hoekstra--and much of the conservative faithful--would like to believe that allegation. For Republicans, locked into support of an unpopular war, convincing their constituencies that American troops need to die for an elusive Iraqi democracy is an increasingly tough sell. The task would be somewhat easier if the Bush administration's pre-war claims about Saddam's WMD were true. Then, along comes the NGIC's irresistible report, which can easily be distorted for the purposes of a ten-second soundbite. But there's only one problem: Intelligence officials won't go along with that distortion.
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:56:27 PM EST
    Red Buttons had died. Anyone remember the film "Sayonara", about an occupation soldier in Japan falling for a Japanese woman, and it ends in tragedy? Rest in hilarious peace, you clown.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:40:21 PM EST
    He and Syd Barrett would make a great, surreal team.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:48:35 PM EST
    ppj - O.k, we'll start a hypocrites club. And since you seem to like Imperial Wizards, you, based on seniority and proven virtuosity, can be our Imperial Wizard. But, just to prove your qualifications once and for all, tell us again about North, Casey, Secord & Co. being American heros.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:01:11 PM EST
    Syd and Red: a psychedelic vaudeville team on the astral plain.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimcee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:39:57 PM EST
    Jondee, Not that PPakaJim needs anyone to defend him but I will point out that you always have a put down that amounts to some non-sequiter in response to his points. You imply he is a KKK member but you never engage in honest response to his posts. You've called me a Fascist amongst other things but have never tried to actually argue for your perspective. Instead you just use the standard weasily epithets that have been used by those who believe deeply but think shallowly. PPakajim is correct that health care in the US needs reform. He is also correct that it is none of your business how others run thier private business. If you are waiting for someone to pay you what you think you are worth then you will always be a conceited unemployed person. If you are willing to take a chance and start your own business you may do rather well for yourself or you may fail. If you choose to work for someone else then you will have to settle for what you get. It is your choice. Me? I wouldn't hire you because you would do nothing but whine about how horrible I am at the same time you would except my check on payday. The proles don't need your likes because you would give hard workers a bad reputation. You are a light-weight intellect with little ability to explain your screeds against those who disagree with your immature opinions.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:52:48 PM EST
    jimcee my friend...not that jondee needs my defense, but for me at least it's a human decency thing. Yeah, some workers get over on their bosses, but I think more bosses get over on their workers. The world we live in can't accomadate 'whatever billion it is' small business owners. The real wealth has always been achieved on the exploitation of othersto varying degrees...slavery being the extreme. If we are more than just clever animals, a more equitable society could be achieved. I think our country was on the right track for a little while there mid twentieth century, but veered off course. Perhaps we are just clever animals with occasional flickers of greatness.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 07:05:52 PM EST
    Show me where I called you a fascist and I'll apologize. I dont think you can.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 07:24:03 PM EST
    How dare someone resond to ppj with a non-sequiter! I love it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimcee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 07:38:52 PM EST
    Jondee, Thank you for proving my point so well. I've dwelled in these parts long before you came here and will continue to frequent here so long as Jerilyn will allow. I'm sure I offend you because you are so easily offended. I do not need to link to your references because you know your style and that you can't form a coherent response to anyone that challenges your dogma. You are an intellectual light-weight with little hope for your own future. I'm sorry if you are offended by my opinions but guess what? I don't really care. Keep feeling sorry for yourself, continue blaming others for your station in life, hate the man, and be embittered by those who you think oppress you. Your tired primative complaints are as ephemeral as the Marxist nonsense that premeated the twentieth century. Kdog, Yeah things were really going great in the mid twentieth century, just refer to the Walter Duranty columns of the '30's Soviets. Unionists run amok. The Nazis were also of the 'unionist' ilk, you know, the socialist kind of thing. Yep that early twentieth century good times, McKinley assasination, the Anarchist movement, Prohibition, the Pinkertons and the miners...and on and on.. The unions were a great thing and they gave the world eight hours a day work and overtime pay. The Unions did not give the world the employer paid health and pension plans. That was a result of the post WWII wage and price controls implemented by the Truman administration which disallowed wage increases but allowed businesses to offer insurance and pensions as an incentive to keep and hold employees. In other words company financed insurance is not a union benefit as much as it was an incentive for companies to attract and keep the best employees they could. Unions suck today, I've been there and done that. Again, if you you don't like your job, benefits, boss or CEO be your own boss. I made the choice to leave depend on myself and it has worked out for me and it can for anyone else. If you are so helpless that you will allow others to define your worth than you will get just what you deserve, what someone else thinks your worth.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 07:52:32 PM EST
    Jimcee - In short you cant back up your b.s but you're not man enough to own up to it. Why am I not suprised? And dont worry, your "opinions" aren't interesting enough to offensive; just boring and pedestrian. What a waste of such a towering intellect.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimcee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 08:12:13 PM EST
    Jondee, I'll keep this last missive short; you mentioned that I mostly post late at night although I sometimes post in the morning mostly because those are the hours that I can do it, being self-employed and all. I'm no towering intellect but I am an honest debater unlike some here. If you don't find my opinions interesting then just don't respond. But... I'll debate you anytime and I won't make it easy for you although your not quite up to speed. A trial by fire is a great learning experience. Would you care to engage? Without using invective? No links required because they are cheap artifice that can never substitute for honest forensics. Consider the gauntlet thrown. The next open thread can be the field. I need no Seconds, how about you? Good night.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 08:39:47 PM EST
    Jimcee - First show me where I called you a fascist, or admit that you extracted that charge out of your rather copious as*. Just so I'll know that I'll be debating someone with a rudimentary sense of honor. Btw, There are some who would say "although you're not quite up to speed" is a form of invective. You're not off to a very good start following your own rules.

    Wednesday Open Thread | 60 comments (60 topical)