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Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 05:52:37 AM EST
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Al Qaeda has released a video showing the mutilatied bodies of the two soldiers from the 101st kidnapped in June from Yusufiya.

In the newly-released film, the captors linked their actions directly to the rape and killing of the Iraqi girl and her family in the town of Mahmudiya. The groups said capturing and killing the soldiers was "revenge for our sister who was dishonoured by a soldier of the same brigade". The groups said capturing and killing the soldiers was "revenge for our sister who was dishonoured by a soldier of the same brigade".

Steven Green and the four other soldiers charged in the girl's rape and murder, and in the murder of her family members, as well as a 5th soldier charged with failirng to report the crimes, were all from the 101st.

The soldiers have been identified as: Sgt. Paul E. Cortez, Sgt. Anthony W. Yribe, Spc. James P. Barker, Pfc. Jesse V. Spielman and Pfc. Bryan L. Howard.

There will be additional repurcussions from this:

In an interview a week after Prime Minister Nouri Maliki demanded a review of foreign troops' immunity, Human Rights Minister Wijdan Salim said work on a request to lift the protection was underway, and it could be ready by next month to go to the U.N. Security Council. U.S.-led forces in Iraq operate under the authority of a Security Council mandate.

Back to the video:

According to the institute, the statement by the insurgent group said the video was released as "revenge for our sister who was dishonored by a soldier of the same brigade."

Sounds like they wanted a little 'Sharia justice.'

The video, issued by the Mujahideen Shura Council in Iraq and posted on an Islamist Web site on Tuesday, showed the bodies of two Western-looking men dressed in camouflage uniforms. It was not clear from the images whether they were U.S. soldiers.

One body had been decapitated. Both were bloodied and with flesh missing from several parts of their bodies. Several shots showed the bodies being trodden on by unidentified men.

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    Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops | 89 comments (89 topical)
    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#1)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 02:11:30 AM EST
    I previously noted these soldiers were not only from the same brigade (a unit of about 3,000-5,000) but were all from the same platoon, a unit of 30-40 soldiers. I'd really like to see what their lieutenant has to say about all of this.... I had also previously noted that I felt the case was one of locals getting blood revenge for a serious breach of honor, that the soldiers had been eyeing this girl up for a while and that the kidnappings and killings of the soldiers highlighted in the video was personal, i.e., that these individuals were targeted specifically because of their involvement. I get the feeling that (a) the video is coming out now because the AQ folks think they can get even more resonance and influence from it, regardless of whether they were involved in the killings or just got a copy of the video, (b) this incident is the figurative last straw for the locals, viz. the local government going to the UN to revoke US soldiers' immunity from prosecution (IMHO not f'g likely, so long as Bolton's ambassador; he needs no instruction to exercise the veto on that resolution), and (c) the friendly locals US soldiers may have had or encountered are now either no longer friendly or no longer alive. Moreover, any bets on whether the soldier who 'fessed up out of a guilty conscience (or combat stress or whatever reason MSM is positing today) got the idea such might be a good idea from post-hoc interactions with locals. Like maybe someone said "you're next" or something similar? Looks? Point fingers and make a gun, like kids playing cowboys or cops and robbers do? And that he thought, "maybe I stand a better chance of turning myself in - at least under the UCMJ* I won't wind up in little pieces scattered across the desert or on some torture video". I'm of the opinion he did. * Compare that sort of treatment to the continued incarceration of the PWs at Gitmo, and one can rightly say some of those Gitmo chickens are coming home to roost. The strongest distinction is the soldiers getting it in Iraq are getting pretty much the same treatment, only quicker and therefore more concentrated. We should remember that once the 'murcan government abandoned the Rule of Law, it both abandoned any pretense of moral authority to demand decent treatment for the occasional 'murcan PW, and exposed them to retributive "frontier justice". Then again, the Unit referred to those old west "Dead or Alive" posters, so he should not be surprised when the adversaries play rough.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 04:54:14 AM EST
    Lost in the moral equivalence that TL dishes out is a salient difference: US Military reaction to rape and murder: Punishment for the soldiers involved Jihadi reaction to the mutilations: IT's a recruitment video - these people are seen as "heros" You might ponder the difference before you toss out such a dry "on the one hand, on the other" post in the future. I could also point out that the Geneva Conventions are supposed to be reciprocal...

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 05:32:38 AM EST
    I think it's been said that we don't expect to see a midwest small town style of community or government there. What determines the distinction between cultural tradition and jihad? It appears that the incident is down home vigilante justice that most Americans would support the reasoning of but would not go that extreme of brutality. Maybe Rove meant that we share the ideals of the Iraqi people but we respect their desire to maintain cultural differences?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 06:05:22 AM EST
    James, it was the Americans who said the Geneva convention didn't appply because the opponents were "illegal combatants". It is also the americans who have been killing women and children by a wide margin over the "illegal combatants"

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#5)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 06:21:23 AM EST
    The old moral equivalence canard. No one has said the are exactly, precisely equivalent. But your side loves the relative moralism approach. We are not as bad because... and then follows some self serving crap as if its a complete justification. In truth most of the extreme right things of Muslims as backwards people who are living in the 8th century [ right ppj?] .This some how justifys our barbaric behavior. The fact that a few are being punish is made to seem like all barbaric act by the US have been punished which is certainly not the case. As usual some trigger pullers will be punished {rightfuly so) but the masters of this diaster go scott free. Its clear that these soldiers are being thrown to the wolves to try to appease malki and the government. Not going to work as they are going to the UN to try and get immunity for soldiers scraped. But the UN is unlikely to do anything as usual. But hey the Iraqis are just a bunch of "sand nigers" as one commander called them.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 06:23:54 AM EST
    Maybe Rove is just talking out his hypocritical a@@ as usual.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 06:39:52 AM EST
    Scribe writes:
    AQ folks
    The country calls these people "terrorists." Try saying it. Writing it. Go on. Truth to BS. rumi writes:
    It appears that the incident is down home vigilante justice
    I always thought the Left condemned vigilante operations. They sure did the Minute Men on the border with Mexico. BigUnit12 - The GC doesn't, and this shows why.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 06:45:07 AM EST
    croc_choda as usual nothing of substance

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#10)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 06:46:38 AM EST
    BigUnit12 - The GC doesn't, and this shows why.
    no it doesn't given that the US has been claiming that the GC dont apply since the war started. At this point to justify that stance on something an Iraqis does is just your usual hypocritical nonsense.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 06:48:25 AM EST
    are you getting senile jimbo? comparing vigilante against people who are just looking for jobs,to revenge for the rape of a young girl and the murder of her and her family. get help!!!

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:17:33 AM EST
    US Military reaction to rape and murder: Punishment for the soldiers involved
    It happened last march and they would have kept it covered up if the press hadn't gotten wind of it ... just like Tillman, Haditha, Abu Ghraib, gitmo ... etc. And no one has been punished yet.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:21:25 AM EST
    the juxtapositioning of the two unrelated issues: allegations of crimes committed by US Soldiers, and the barbaric slaughter of two US soldiers is ghastly at best. At this point I agree with soccerdad. This is not moral equivalence, it's denial bordering on delusion. it's not that people like soccerdad can't see a distinction between the two issues, it's that they consciously chose not to. Having thought about the dynamics that would drive people to such a nadir of sensibility I must say that I wonder about the future of our society. Perhaps we don't deserve to carry on. Life is like that: its a constant test of strength. And clearly something has managed to sap the strength from the soccerdads in America. further, no concern for the grieving parents of these two fine soldiers will ever escape the lips of the anti victory left. cindy Sheehan will be lauded as a darling of the left, but these parents who also lost loved ones in the line of duty will suffer in deafing silence. I sincerely doubt that the anti victory commenters here can find the time in their busy day to speak a silent prayer for the grieving people those two soldiers left behind. So enjoy yourselves today. There's no reason to be concerned about these soldiers or their parents or girlfriends or siblings or children. They are just grist for the righteous indignation mill that seems to grind endlessly on sites such as this. Have a nice day.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#14)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:27:36 AM EST
    Crock, We first void the GC and then complain when the other side doesn't follow it. Seems logical. Jim, Stop trying to hijack the thread. Again.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:31:19 AM EST
    yeah skippy, and I see how bad you feel about the raped and murdered little girl. And let's not forget Haditha. And what was that place where the Americans beheaded the Iraqis and put their heads on poles?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:44:13 AM EST
    and Skip, Not admitting that a possible relationship is that of action/reaction is certainly denial. Moral judgements do not even apply here. It is the same mental failure that allows one to say that Saddam has/had rape rooms, yet denies that GWBush has/had the same thing. and James, Yes, we should work overtime to keep our activities from being viewed as "recruiting" videos. One cannot fault the freedom fighters from being opportunists. You would expect nothing less were the shoe on the other foot? Perhaps, were you to view them as human beings you would see many more favorable options other than "war".

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:50:26 AM EST
    Isn't this interesting. I can always tell when I've encountered someone completely bereft of cogent response: they call me skippy. Um, let's see, I've been skip for fiftyfive years now. And I imagine I've had "skippy" flung at me maybe ten thousand times over that period. Granted most of that was on the schoolyard growing up. Which is something I did and "bigunit" didn't. BTW guys who really are big units don't need to mention it. Next, bigunit read my post carefully. I don't recall expressing an opinion or a "feeling" about the alleged crimes. but I do know that those two soldiers are dead and that their loved ones are suffering an enormous amount of grief. Frankly bigunit, I reckon I've hit a nerve here. You are so busy being righteously indignant that never spared a thought for the families of those two soldiers. I have. I grieve for the people of the mid east who must fight thier way out of the eighth century. Opposing them are the strong forces of inertia, men who live well because of the status quo. These men, sheiks, Imams, despots and so on, will not allow freedom to gain a foothold if that freedom threatens their lifestyle. I also grieve for our society because I sense that we simply lack the will to exist. Here's a quote from Abu Bakr Naji. His book is entitled "The Management of Savagery" and its viewed as the Al Qaeda playbook. I believe the author has this about right: "O people! The viciousness of the Russian soldier is twice that of the American soldier. If the Americans suffer one tenth of the casualties the Russians suffered in Afghanistan and Chechnya, they will flee and never look back. That is because the current structure of the American and Western armies is not the same as their structure during the colonial era. They have reached a stage of effeminacy that makes them unable to sustain battles for a long period of time, a weakness they compensate for with a deceptive media halo." bigunit, soccerdad et al. I think he's got you pegged. Care to rebut his statement?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#18)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:53:38 AM EST
    such terms as hyocrisy
    should read as patriotism etc sorry

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:00:07 AM EST
    I have. I grieve for the people of the mid east who must fight thier way out of the eighth century
    self-serving American exceptionalism bordering on racism

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:02:15 AM EST
    we call you skippy because of your childish arguments which are juts rehashes of the RNC talking points that we have seen hundreds of times. But thanks for dehumanization of the Iraqis as if thats a new tactic. Bad enough, but now you're recycling year old crap from ppj.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:19:30 AM EST
    Ah yes, first you complain that I'm recycling earlier talking points, then you proceed to recycle some talking points. Again, all I'm asking is that you say a prayer for the families caught up in this. Sure, say a prayer for the families caught up in Iraq as well. I certainly do. Now this: "self-serving American exceptionalism bordering on racism" This is simple bigotry, bordering on hubris. go read an announcement made by one of these terrormongers for crying out loud. Can you imagine the guys at the pentagon talking like that? You need to face facts soccerdad, these people are mired in the eighth century and all your attempts at denial won't change that fact. When you run out of cogent thoughts it seems you all run home to some trite bumpersticker slogans. I'm a racist now because I stated that the people of the middle east are mired in the eighth century? WTF? As I stated earlier I sincerely doubt that America has what it takes to survive. There are simply too many of Naji calls "effeminate" people for us to prevail against the savagery that Al Q is willing to use. their approach is clearly working because they have you guys supporting them. With support like this, how could they lose?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:45:05 AM EST
    "self-serving American exceptionalism bordering on racism" This is simple bigotry, bordering on hubris
    WTF Listen skiperoo read your own post. You are just recyleing the dehumanization of the Iraqi. if my response to that is a recyle then so be it. I am consistent in repudiating that approach.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:47:01 AM EST
    Iraq will ask the United Nations to end immunity from local law for U.S. troops, the government said on Monday, as the U.S. military named five soldiers charged in a rape-murder case that has outraged Iraqis...... "If we don't get that, then we'll ask for an effective role in the investigations that are going on. The Iraqi government must have a role." Analysts say it is improbable the United States would ever make its troops answerable to Iraq's chaotic judicial system.
    Reuters via Juan Cole Too chaotic for bringing US troops to justice but not too chaotic for trying Saddam? So much for sovereignty. At this point it is essentially a colony where the natives are just a bit unruly and perturbed. Ingrates.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:48:33 AM EST
    Skip, So enjoy yourselves today. There's no reason to be concerned about these soldiers or their parents or girlfriends or siblings or children. They are just grist for the righteous indignation mill that seems to grind endlessly on sites such as this. Your attitude chastising commenters here for not showing the (your) appropriate amount of respect and sadness is flagrantly arrogant. You don't know anyone here, nor do you know what we are thinking. So STFU with your sanctamoniuos lecturing, and your personal ruminations about whether we deserve to exist and that life is a constant struggle, blah blah. It shoud now be obvious, even to you, that the number one priority of the progressive citizens of this country is to stop this war ASAP. You can weep and moan about the casualties, but you are the biggest enabler of them all. So go cry in your soup. The very people you critisize for not boo hooing are the ones who are working the hardest to save your precious american boys and girls from the lunatic fringe in the White House.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#27)
    by aw on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:49:45 AM EST
    Croc and Skippy: We've known soccerdad for a long time and can vouch for his consistency. Try something else.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#28)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:50:01 AM EST
    And don't forget to pray! (gag)

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:51:15 AM EST
    What you ignore, for whatever reason, is that the insurgency in Iraq has no other aim except terror.
    again, another false premise. terror is a tactic. But it is not surprising that you denigrate and ignore their aims, otherwise you would have hypocrisy. If you would like to supply them with some tanks and copters I'm sure they would adapt their tactics accordingly. The primary aim of the Suuni insurgency is to regain power and drive the US from the country. You complaining about my whinning. I se. That means you approve of personal attacks on people and their families. Gee I'm shocked Shocked I tell you The morally bankrupt are the last ones to realize they are.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:53:47 AM EST
    Very intelligent PR move on behalf of the insurgents. I do not believe for one minute that they killed these soliders in retaliation for the rape but they do not need for me to believe it. They need to appeal to the Iraqi honor for those on the fence, how can an Iraqi argue against the murder of the soldiers as retribution for the rape and murder? Opportunistic sure, but no more than our WMD, 400,000 in mass graves (5000 buried have been found and still no evidence supporting 400,000), nuclear weaponry and the threat. So if we are discussing moral relativity, I think they have a reasonable argument to be opportunists, that does not mean I have to believe that their intentions were to keep our soldiers alive and treat them in accordance with the laws of the GC. They would be really stupid not to try and take advantage of the situation, doesn't make it believable though.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:56:36 AM EST
    With support like this, how could they lose?
    Yes the current administration has done more to bolster al-Qaida's efforts at recruitment and prominence than anyone. A dream for OBL, and Bush. One has to stop and pause with this fact: Are they working together?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#32)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:03:17 AM EST
    There are simply too many of Naji calls "effeminate" people for us to prevail against the savagery that Al Q is willing to use
    What do you mean? We've killed maybe a hundred thousand plus of them... how's that for savagery?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#33)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:20:46 AM EST
    Croc, Be serious, the insurgency is multi-faceted, and their main goal is to get the U.S. out and their own version of an Iraqi government in. We may not like most of the insurgent actions or demands, but their goal is certainly obvious -- TO GET US OUT. We are the occupiers, it doesn't take much to figure that out. And btw, what was this administrations plan for pacifying the whole area -- SHOCK AND AWE, otherwise known as massive bombing and butchery. Our sh*t smells to, bro. Maybe not the same smell, but it stinks.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:28:05 AM EST
    What you ignore, for whatever reason, is that the insurgency in Iraq has no other aim except terror. The kidnapping, torture and eventually beheading cycle is their standard operating procedure. In contrast, when our servicemen kill indiscriminately, rape or commit other atrocities, we are outraged because we do not expect nor do we accept such behavior. Yet you find it politically advantageous morally eqivocate the two.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:28:45 AM EST
    Here's a timely look at the problem that is representative of many arguments here as seen from a conservative perspective blaming the left which is blaming a small segment of others and the conservatives who blindly follow. Olbermann Plugs 'Conservatives Without Conscience' Attack on 'Authoritarian' Repubs Olbermann went on to argue that "this all seems to require not merely venality or immorality, but a kind of amorality where morals don't enter into it at all. We're right, so anything we do to preserve our process, our power, even if it by itself is wrong, it's right in the greater sense." After Olbermann asked Dean whom he meant to label as "authoritarian figures," the Countdown host even voiced agreement with Dean's claim that Cheney and Bush are both authoritarian as Olbermann agreed, "Yeah." Olbermann then implied there was a need for hope that either Bush's followers would "wise up" and stop their "lockstep salute," or that they, apparently referring to Bush and other conservatives in the government, would turn out to be "fanatics" which will cause them to "screw up." Olbermann considered it to be a "lockstep salute" for Bush supporters to claim "of course there's WMD, of course there are terrorists, of course there's al-Qaeda, of course everything is the way the President says it."

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#35)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:28:59 AM EST
    "It's not really a reversal of policy," Snow asserted.
    Flip-flop. With emphasis on the flop.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#36)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:30:00 AM EST
    Ahhhh. James Robertson, you said Geneva is "reciprocal"*. *N.B. That's a worthless argument; each signatory is obligated to follow Geneva regardless of the adversary's reciprocity, or lack of it. I talked about that the other day. In any event, please check in with the right-wing noise machine; your fax must have run out of paper. The White House announced this morning that regardless, Common Article 3 of Geneva will be observed and followed in all US detention facilities, anywhere. A couple points: (A) After Hamdan, this was inevitable. I say this for three reasons: (1) Hamdan required the gov't to either follow the UCMJ and Geneva, or come up with a system of military commissions which would comply with Geneva and the Constitution. (2) Playing with the mess of creating a whole new version of the UCMJ-lite which somehow would both comply with Geneva and the Constitution and still allow The Unit, Deadeye, Rummy and Perfesser Yoo to get their rocks off from locking people away based on "evidence" derived from torture was never going to work. This because: (a) there's an open revolt going on in Congress, over intelligence and the brewing lobbyist scandals (and yesterday's Jefferson opinion didn't help matters). (b) there are hearings scheduled to take place starting today on this topic, and this might take the wind out of its sails (Specter unhorsed, again. When will he ever learn?). Moreover, Fmr. DoD General Counsel Haynes (a Deadeye/Addington protege) is having a second chance hearing today on his nomination to the Fourth Circuit, after it came acropper because he supported (and gamed to push) torture while at DoD (I think he's being hung out to dry).; (c) drafting the UCMJ took (i) several years (it wasn't passed until 1950), (ii) lots of hearings, (iii) tons of bipartisanship in the Congress and Senate, (iv) listening to the voice of experience in and from WWII, (v) good faith on all sides in Congress and the Executive, (vi) an honest desire to do the legislation right without reference to a coming election, and (vii) revulsion at what had happened in WWII and a committment to make sure it didn't happen again. None of those are present here to support this UCMJ-lite. (3) As a matter of how the laws work and what they say, there's just no way to reconcile what the Unit, Deadeye, Rummy and Yoo want with the law, Geneva, or the Constitution. They won't work together. (B) The Unit's off the Europe today for a summit in Moscow, with a stop in Germany along the way (they've closed off for security reasons most of Stralsund in the former East Germany, where W's new BFF Angie Merkel grew up, so he can visit and dedicate something. Betting she goes to the Ranch; Germans love cowboys and westerns.). He needed to bring her (and the folks in Moscow) some flowers and chocolate** after the debacle at the EU/US summit on Iran late last month in Vienna and her country's triumphal carrying-off the World Cup (millions attended not only in the stadia, but also at open air big-screen projections of the live game video, lots of beer, and only a few thousand drunks arrested; no terrists). W's toast in the international arena and he needs to show something. (C) This is a desperate attempt (probably from Rover) to salvage something, before it's too late. There's an election coming and everyone who's ever been in the military or knows someone who was understands just how wrong the rape-murder of that young girl was, that those soldiers we were told were martyred were really the victims of frontier justice, and hte visceral reaction to being lied to is showing up in the polls. Here's my bet W's numbers start tanking again. **Deliberate snark, vis-a-vis Tony Snow yesterday, compare and contrast Clinton's N. Korea policy v. Unit's.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:32:00 AM EST
    I wonder: Republicans, with "war" as the only tool in their toolbox, think nothing of sending live people into fatal situations. Once dead, the typical Republican gets all crazy over the dead body, never the person that once animated that body. They then opportunistically parade that dead body like a flag. The "bad" guys cannot fool with the dead body in any way. That is somehow "morally repugnant". I mean, what about the entity that once inhabited that dead body? Aren't the 2700+ consciousness' worth anything? It is just, dead body this, dead body that. Why do I get the feeling that Republicans are necrophiliacs, making love to the husks they themselves sent to be killed, like some pagan ritual. Who care what happens to the dead body. It is not like the dude is gonna need it anymore.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:32:34 AM EST
    You have people like the skipster and ppj talk about the war on terrorism.They're right terrorism needed to be fought, but not in Iraq. Before the Bush lie machine administration, does anyone remember Iraq every being involved in terrorism? Never. So, Bush attacks probably the least terrorist country in the mideast,and then tortures and murders it's citizens. They're are going to be a lot of pissed off Iraqis for decades. Bush has swollen the ranks of Al-Qaida by the hundreds of thousands. But, on the other hand, there sure is a whole lot of oil in Iraq.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:32:57 AM EST
    I think the jihadi claim that the killings were retribution for the rape and murder are dubious, at best. There as no mention of the claim in any insurgent communiqué and the reference to the "sister who was dishonored by a soldier of the same brigade" came only after this information was disseminated widely by the Western press. What it does tell us, however, is the level of PR sophistication and understanding of media manipulation the insurgents have. For this reason, the investigations and trials for all the allegations of atrocities should be as transparent and open as possible. If we are to accept as fact that militant jihadists do not represent the vast majority of Muslims, we should do all we can to impress upon the Islamic world that rouge individuals in our military do not represent the larger military or the Western world.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#39)
    by aw on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:36:29 AM EST
    I dare the **** here to read the book and explain how it doesn't apply to them.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#40)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:37:33 AM EST
    Oh, yeah. I forgot to mention. In the law business, the kind of "change of direction" evinced by only now declaring that Geneva applies, after years of vagueness, that's what's called an "Admission against interest" or a "statement against interest". In so many words, The Unit, Deadeye, Rummy and theirs took to heart Kennedy's pretty-explicit threat in his Hamdan opinion that they were exposed to war crimes charges, but by making this splashy announcement, they only highlight that previously, they were breaking the law.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#41)
    by aw on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:37:40 AM EST
    "Conservatives Without Conscience" the book referred to above is the one. I should have referred to the title again.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:37:57 AM EST
    Scribe, Excellent, as always. This is yet another example of this short-sighted (blind?) administration sacrificing the country's values, sacrificing the country itself, on the alter of their own egomaniacal delusions of power. Children with guns.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#43)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:56:31 AM EST
    Dadler: Thanks. Just trying to help. Now, more on former DoD General Counsel Haynes, who's up for his second chance hearing before Senate Judiciary on his nomination to the Fourth Circuit. Here's a letter to Specter and Leahy, signed by over thirty generals and admirals (many of them retired heads of their services' JAGs), asking that the Senate take Haynes to task and ask him some hard questions. They suggest some questions. The letter is pretty clear in seeking to kill the nomination, but they do it nicely. It's nine pages, but worth a read. The best part (IMHO) is at the very end, the last part of the last question:
    Do you support the establishment of a special investigative commission, with subpoena power, to determine why the abuse of prisoners by U.S. personnel became so widespread in Afghanistan and Iraq and who bears responsibility for such practices?
    I dare Haynes to answer "no".

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:56:34 AM EST
    Let's see: che, do you ever wonder about the parents of the people your hero Dr Guevarra tortured and murdered? Probably not. YOu say you're a progressive which is simply code for socialist. Your goal is to get us out of Iraq. We we share that goal. The difference between us is that I want victory and you demand defeat. I especially admire your bravery in taking on the white house. It must take quite a bit of nerve to speak out like that. You're quite the guy. War is a very polarizing and as Eldridge Clever said: you're either part of the problem or you're part of the solution. Let me respond to the Al Q recruitment meme. I've heard this endlessly. Hitch's explanation is perhaps the best. You people believe that fighting terror causes terror. so anything we do in response to oh say a 9/11 or a 7/7 is wrong because it just inflames the muslims. Well the facts on the ground don't seem to support this concept. Right now the iraqi insurgents are heavily engaged in amnesty talks with the Maliki government. They would not bother with this if the knew that there were millions of angry well armed arabs massing at the borders. Again, back to Najil's book. One chapter is dedicated to dealing with a dearth of fighters. Now why would this guy, who wrote Al Q's training manual bother to discuss this problem if there was an endless supply of new recruits? How about the corner that Hamas finds itself in? would they be whining in the WAPO if they knew that arabs were massing at the syrian border? Of course not. Clearly there is no cavalry coming to their rescue. They are getting thrown under the bus because the Arabs know something you don't: taking arms against America's military is an excellent way to get killed. Perhaps the saddest part of all this is that so many of them seem to want to die. It's impossible to reason with someone who will gladly kill themselves for their "god". We couldn't reason with the Kamikazes and we can't reason with the true believers in the Muslim world. But what we can do is offer a serious object lesson for those who are waivering. One poster here points out that we've killed thousands and that's no doubt true. The question is, have we killed enough of these guys to dissuade the rest? I'd like to hope so and certainly the deafening silence that Hamas is hearing bodes well for this outcome. If Al Q really had hundreds of thousands of new recruits we'd be knee deep in them in Iraq and yet Al Q is running away as fast as they can. Why? Because their barbarity appalls even the sunni henchmen. They've worn out their welcome in Iraq and any of these mythical minions that arrive there are ratted out in short order. No, Al Q isn't gaining new recruits. they've watched the flower of thier army get destroyed in Iraq. They made it a central theatre in the terror war and they've been soundly beaten. Let's see, what else is there. Hmmm, oh yes the Iraq theatre was wrong argument. Hmmm, well no large scale effort like this will ever go uncriticized. I understand some of the concerns about our invasion of Iraq I just don't share them. The Iraq invasion is paying huge dividends for the west. It was the right move in this high stake game of chess. I'll gladly tell you why.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:57:37 AM EST
    Coming late to the discussion here. A few matters on comments to the two new conservative commenters here -- croc and skip-- Please read TalkLeft's comments rules. You may not engage in name-calling or personal insults to other commenters. No profanity is allowed. If you do, you will be banned. You may disagree with arguments made by others so long as you are civil about it. Second, scribe, I'll do a separate post on the detainees and Geneva conventions, please save your comments and repost them there. This thread is about the killing of our soldiers as retaliation for the rape and murders of the girl and her family in Iraq. Third, for those in denial that the killings of our soldiers were in retaliation for the rape and murders of the girl and her family, I urge you to read the affidavit for arrest warrant of Steven Green and the confessions of the other soldiers who voluntarily came forward contained therein.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#46)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:58:47 AM EST
    the juxtapositioning of the two unrelated issues:
    There have been many news reports that the 2 are related ... but I'm sure it's just a coincidence that those two soldiers were from the same 40 man platoon that carried out the rapes.
    residents of the neighbouring town of Mahmoudiyah have told The Sunday Telegraph that their kidnap was carried out to avenge the attack on a local girl Abeer Qassim Hamza, 15, and her family. They claim that insurgents have vowed to kidnap and kill another eight American troops to exact a 10-to-one revenge for the rape and murder of the girl.
    Green apparently knew at least one of the soldiers who had been abducted on June 16. The FBI affidavit supporting his arrest said he had "attended a funeral for one of the soldiers who was kidnapped and murdered by terrorists." Federal authorities could not clarify whose burial service Green attended.
    Investigators are now looking into whether the Iraqis abducted Menchaca and Tucker in retaliation for the killing of the Iraqis, civilian and military officials said.
    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#47)
    by Slado on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:01:19 AM EST
    Skip, You know and I know that in 10 years the left will be re-writting the history of this time period...not that they aren't already...just like they've had to do for the 80's and Reagans battle and eventual defeat of communism. You see the left loves to play the naysayer and the critic when it is a choice between ideals that matter and playing it safe...all the same old tired arguments that are used today were used against Regan and his confrontational stance against communism....traitor, terrorist, ruining the country etc... etc... Excuse us on the right for not taking the left seriously and moving on once again to solve a major problem. We'll remind the left of the history in 2020 when soccerdad is explaining to my why Bush isn't really responsible for Iraq being a democracy.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#48)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:07:42 AM EST
    The Iraqi parliament described the rape as a crime against "the honor of all Iraqis". As a result, Al-Maliki asked to review laws of foreign troops' immunity from prosecution in Iraq, which seems to be an Iraqi public demand. Iraqi tribal leaders had a number of meetings across the country last week on the anniversary of "Thawrat Al-Eshrin", the 1920 revolution against the British occupation. The largest meeting was that of the mostly Shia Middle Euphrates Tribes. During this meeting, they threatened to initiate a full scale revolution against the occupation, similar to what had happened in 1920, unless the U.S. army hands all soldiers accused of raping the "Al-Mahmudiyah Virgin" to them.
    emphasis mine Link

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:09:53 AM EST
    Slado why dont you give us some facts about how well the war in Iraq is going.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#50)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:13:20 AM EST
    slado, what does that have to do with the retaliation against our tropps for raping and mudering a 14 year old and her family?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:16:21 AM EST
    Perhaps this is the exit strategy?? Have the military commit atrocities so terrible that the Iraqis insist on either being able to prosecute the offenders themselves or, at a minimum, having a role in the investigations. The admin then balks at the prospect of allowing a foreign government to oversee the US military and says that if that's the way you want it, we'll just leave. The aftermath- Iraq sinks even further into chaos and the admin sits back shaking their heads saying 'This is their own fault. If they'd allowed us to stay, this never would have happened.'

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#52)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:30:38 AM EST
    It seems really curious to me that when insurgents are taken against their will they are captured but when American troops are taken against their will they are kidnapped. The events seem the same but the language is biased. Kidnapping is always unfair while capturing is not only fair but a feather in the cap. Is this the same as terrorist vs freedom fighter? Do the insurgents use the term kidnapped or is their word for capture translated as kidnapped due to bias?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:33:11 AM EST
    When the US bombs the crap out of a town, it's a tactical strike. When the insurgents blow up Iraqi soldiers (seems like a legit target to me), it's a terrorist attack. Nothing new here

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#54)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 11:12:37 AM EST
    Imagery has been used throughout history to manipulate populations and advance political agendas. What we see now in Al Qaeda videos, and on a much larger and more sophisticated and perfected scale from the propaganda machines of Hitler's Nazi Party in 1930's Germany, and from the bush administration and all other US administrations, is no different at root or in it's purposes than what has been done for centuries: Emperor Augustus perfected it's methods in his society and used it to great effect in the days of the Roman Empire, and it continues to this day: Art and Propaganda in Ancient Rome:
    Propaganda was without a doubt an important part of ancient Rome. It is through it that we see how art was manipulated by the ruling body in order to entertain, to revive traditional values, to gain support for military campaigns, to encourage unity, and above all to portray not only the emperor, but the imperial family as strong, moral leaders that are faithful to the people. From sculpture to architecture, the Romans left behind a legacy of art both intricate and monumental, peaceful and courageous mostly in an attempt to gain the love and support of the masses. We can only hope that the television commercials of John Kerry, the billboards of Howard Dean, and the photographs of President Bush will one day do the same.
    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 11:13:35 AM EST
    Squeaky - The terrorists are not an "army," but terrorists. Terrorists kidnapp. Hope that isn't too complicated for you. Che - Quoting your own words is "hijacking?" Pardon me while I snicker at your obvious attempt to makea phony point. Canuck, eh - writes
    When the insurgents blow up Iraqi soldiers (seems like a legit target to me), it's a terrorist attack.
    Seems simple, eh? Insurgents okay. Elected goverment bad.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#56)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 11:38:30 AM EST
    ppj-Can't help spinning can you. The group that captured and killed the two US soldiers are Iraqi, fighting an occupying army that happens to be American. Your decision to call them terrorists says it all. Our troops have no business in Iraq. Our leaders are responsible for all the death and destruction in this immoral war. Blood is on your hands and all the hands of those who continue to support the senseless killing. Was the Iraqi girl who was raped a terrorist as well?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 11:40:11 AM EST
    We "kidnapped" about 2000 people and sent them to Gitmo.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 11:55:02 AM EST
    The terrorist in the United States aided by the rightwing insurgents,hijacked two elections and lied to start a war in Iraq, causing the deaths of thousands of women and children.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#59)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 12:14:38 PM EST
    ppj, what does that have to do with the retaliation against our tropps for raping and mudering a 14 year old and her family?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 12:15:59 PM EST
    Jim, I look at it as though the shoe were on the other foot. Imagine you're not American. The US admin decided that regime change was necessary in your country: They bombed your city until there was no infrastructure left- no water no power, no grocery stores. They killed literally thousands of your friends, neighbours and loved ones. That nice lady that hands out candy apples at halloween?? You found half her face on your doorstep last week. Your dog? Barked at a soldier and got 100 rounds of ammo for his trouble. Your wife? Raped and murdered by the soldiers. Your kids? One of them died in a bombing, the other one died of a curable disease because you were unable to get basic medical care. So you're pissed, right? You get together with the few remaining people in your world and conspire to start fighting back, in any way that you can. Seems pretty reasonable to me but guess what? You're a terrorist. Welcome to Baghdad!!

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#61)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 12:52:47 PM EST
    che, do you ever wonder about the parents of the people your hero Dr Guevarra tortured and murdered? Not again. (Sigh) Only Bautista's torturers were executed. I am against the death penalty. And again you have no links. You people believe that fighting terror causes terror. so anything we do in response to oh say a 9/11 or a 7/7 is wrong because it just inflames the muslims. Straight from the monkey's a**! We're busted.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 02:48:35 PM EST
    Bigunit... Before the Bush lie machine administration, does anyone remember Iraq every being involved in terrorism? Never. Yes..those of us that actually listened to what was going on there "before" it became the 'political' talking point thing to do! Saddam...rewarded, trained, and gave shelter to terrorists... but don't let any "facts" get in the way of a good political argument! Oh..and BTW... many WMD's have been found. You just won't hear that on CBS... because they're too busy helping the Dan Rathers of the country trump up lies about the government.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#63)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 03:04:25 PM EST
    Yes BB you are right. Saddam supported the MEK. Now that he is out of the picture they are working for us.
    In 1987, the MEK was driven from its headquarters in France and moved its base to Iraq, where Saddam Hussein gave the group shelter. From that time, the group continually conducted raids, bombings and mortar attacks in Iran
    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#64)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 03:07:20 PM EST
    Yes..those of us that actually listened to what was going on there "before" it became the 'political' talking point thing to do! Saddam...rewarded, trained, and gave shelter to terrorists... but don't let any "facts" get in the way of a good political argument!
    Oh..and BTW... many WMD's have been found.
    Those are all lies, and easily disproven. And what does that have to do with the retaliation against our troops for raping and mudering a 14 year old and her family?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 03:34:55 PM EST
    Canuck, eh offers yet another trite leftie meme. The old, what if somebody invaded us routine. Well here's an answer Cannuck, eh. My reaction depends on whether I was an oppressor or an oppressee. If I'm an oppressor I have a couple of choices. I can grab my wife, my kids and my concubines and run for syria or I can take a stand in the hope that I can defeat the infidel invaders. We've seen quite a bit of both, haven't we, eh? Saddam's oh so brave wife is in Damacus. Sorta reminds me of Arafat's wife who lived in Paris. And yes some of the sunni thugs that ran Saddam's stalinist apparatus stood their ground and fought. Many of them are still lying under the rubble in Fallujah too. what if I were oppressee? Well I would be cautiously optimistic. After all I will have been fed a steady diet of total lies about the infidel invader and they certainly are much different from Habibi down at the souk. Still after centuries of blind obediance I would no doubt find someone to tell me what to do. My Imam, my sheik, my father, the old guys smoking cigarettes on the street corners, somebody. Now let's suppose that as an oppressee I witnessed my daughter being carted away from her wedding for the pleasure of Saddam's son. This was, after all, one of his favorite hobbies. and lets say, just to stay with your example, that I knew that the men who did this also raped and killed my daughter. If someone comes along and says, "the guys that did this will never be caught let's get even." I would have a very hard time not grabbing that AK and wandering over to the sunni side of town. which brings us back to the oppressors. Suddenly life has changed yet again. The former oppressees are running the new government, they are forming a strong and well lead army and even worse they are organizing death squads to seek revenge for thirty years of brutal oppression. the concubines in Syria option starts to look like a better choice but with 58 border forts and counting, getting there could be tough. so should I fight? or should I try for an amnesty? If I continue to fight, ultimately I will be killed. It may take a while but sooner or later I'll run out of luck and inshallah I'll cop it. but if I just give up and they find out what I've done, both before and after the invasion, they'll kill me anyway. so here's what I'd do. go to the guys in Baghdad and make them an offer they can't refuse. They forgive my sins and I tell them where the bad guys are. Any bad guy that doesn't want to get ratted out, can join me. the guys in Baghdad are likely to bargain hard, so I'll have to continue to pay achmed the IED guy, just to stabilize my negotiating position. hey, I have an even better Idea. What if we trade info about Zark's whereabouts for some Sunni control in the government, eh? They get rid of this guy who's been a big pain in the bodunkas lately anyway and maybe we catch a break on the insurgency rap. Hey, this could work. Now the former oppressees are filled with blood lust. thirty years of anger and they just can't get past it. Mass graves, police stations equipped with rape rooms and so on. these guys are suddenly enjoying themselves and they cannot stop the violence. Now what? Easy, hang Saddam. In public, by his feet. do the mussolini on him and let everyone have their little catharsis and move on. so cannuck, eh what else ya got?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 03:53:01 PM EST
    Skip, if you want to continue to post here, lose the insults and the mocking tone. It violates the comments policy.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 05:12:50 PM EST
    The umbrella group of the Sunni insurgency in Iraq, Mujahedeen Shura council of Iraq, hosts its own Internet site on which they post multiple daily announcements of "Adoptions" (claims of responsibility) for assassinations and various kinds of attacks on "Crusaders" (US military), Iraqi government officials, police, and army units and "Apostates" (Shia people) On 7/10/06 they posted a claim of responsibility: This is a video showing " Bodies' remains of the two American soldiers who were captured near al-Youssoufeya" , we present it as a revenge for our sister who was violated by a soldier of the brigade in which the two soldiers were members , when the lions of monotheism knew about this "at that time" , they kept it in secret whith broken hearts and decided to take revenge for their sister, and Allah enabled them to capture two soldiers from the same brigade in which the dirty crusader was a member , and these are their bodies' remains which we ask Allah to be a cure for belivers' chests" They provide multiple links to filesharing sites to download the video file. The video is bloodcurdling. The two soldiers were cut to ribbons before they were killed. The video is grainy and jerky but clear enough to see that our two soldiers were cut to ribbons before they were killed. There is no mistaking which one was beheaded. The head of the young man from Oregon is held up to provide a full face view. God forbid that the parents of these boys would ever see this video. It is repulsive and sickening. This war in Iraq should never have been fought, but the Cheney doctrine (kick some small country's a*s to show the others they can't mess with the USA) and a bunch of rightwing media chearleaders and an acquiescent Congress got us into this mess. Now there is no good choice of ways out, only bad and worse, but we must get out anyway, asap.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 05:15:44 PM EST
    Mujahedeen Shura council of Iraq "Press Release" internet site http://press-release.blogspot.com/

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 05:22:31 PM EST
    Thomas, I deleted the link to the video. It has gotten TalkLeft banned from paypal before to use them and there are lots of other blogs one can find them at.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 06:10:29 PM EST
    The link in my first message was for the Press Release site only to provide graphic illustration of the religious fervor and cold blooded attitude of the Sunni insurgency born of centuries-old hatred of 'crusaders' and centuries-old inter-Sect conflict among Muslims. I intentionally omited links to the video download sites. It's just to emotionally upsetting. I lost my youngest son by suicide. He was the same age as those two soldiers. Anyone who has lost a child to sudden death knows how heartwrenching the revelation of details of those events are for parents. I could not watch the whole thing.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#71)
    by Slado on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 06:46:24 PM EST
    We are in Iraq. If we leave now what do the critics think will happen? Do they care? History, as I stated earlier will judge if this was the right move but to argue that one single atrocity or one good deed is a reason to or not to embark on this mission is ridiculous. I think the mission was a good idea. In the long run. History will judge me and President Bush. Quiting now won't solve anything. Stop using every piece of AQ or insurgent propoganda to justify your position and start pulling for the 99.999% of our troops who are trying to make Iraq a better place. "I support the troops". I seem to remember having read that before, or have we given up on that?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#72)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:34:44 PM EST
    I think the mission was a good idea
    Despite your kool aid induced delusions to the contrary, this war is a simple war of conquest and imperialism the aims of which were to gain control of the gas/oil resources and project US military power in the region. This war was conceived and orchestrated by the "cold war warriors" who only understand the use of brutal force to secure "American Interests" no matter where it is or what they are. Staying will cause further hatred of the US by the rest of the Muslim world as well as further desatabilzation of the ME. The end result can be nothing but further attacks on the US by Muslims. You continue to confuse troops for policy and patriotism for nationalism. But throwing out those tired old canards is all you have, since this war has long ago lost its false pretenses. well except for the kool aid impaired.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:39:28 PM EST
    Canuck, eh - First of all, games of what if really bore me. I mean what if you had not been born? What if the New York Times had been around during the Revolutionary war to reveal our troop movements? But, you were born and the NYT had to wait 230 years or so to leak classified information. But, I will answer you with a real simple question of my own. Please answer. Do you still beat your wife? Let me answer you another way. Whther you like it or not, on our very worst day we are a 1000 times better than the terrorists on their very best day. So your question doesn't make a lot of sense. Che writes: Not again. (Sigh) Yes, again. Sailor - I have this belief that anything AQ says is a lie. What you are seeing is them using this for propaganda. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's life in the fast lane.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#74)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 07:47:50 PM EST
    Whther you like it or not, on our very worst day we are a 1000 times better than the terrorists on their very best day.
    Why dont you explain that to us in detail. Is it becaue the life of an Iraqi is worth 1/1000 of that of an American? PPJ generator of hot air and propaganda. Yes and the sun will also rise tomorrow.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:48:44 PM EST
    SD - Your position that the US is evil is well known, so I really think that your question is of the useless variety. But please feel free to tell me why we aren't the greatest country on God's Green Earth. I think you have your response memorized.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#76)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 08:54:57 PM EST
    - Your position that the US is evil is well known, so I really think that your question is of the useless variety.
    nice try ppj but no dice. I dont think the US is evil, I think its present leadership is evil - big difference except to someone like you who continually gets the 2 confused. So you made the statement why dont you explain it. Its not a useless question, I'm giving you the opportunity to explain yourself.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#77)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:27:47 PM EST
    The more I read the more I believe that the neocon war hawks have not bungled a thing. There is countless evidence that the sort of thing we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan does nothing to stanch terrorism but fuels it. The war mongers know this all to well. War, eternal war, serves their purpose. Here is a bit on the transformation of Shamil Basayev from a Chechen separatist rebel to a brutal jihadist warlord aligned with al-Qaeda.
    But Basayev was eventually transformed into a brutal, humorless warlord who appeared to have less interest in Chechen independence than in furthering the international jihad. In his Times article, Chivers, explores how this transformation may have occurred: In May 1995, the Russians destroyed his family's homes. The attacks reportedly killed 11 of his relatives, including his wife, two daughters and a brother. ''That could have propelled him, because he was not a born terrorist,'' Dr. [Dmitri] Trenin [the deputy director of the Carnegie Moscow Center] said. ''The annihilation of his clan may have pushed him in this direction.'' Whatever drove Mr. Basayev, Chechnya could no longer contain him. In June 1995 he hid fighters in trucks that ostensibly carried the bodies of slain Russian soldiers and, with a fake police escort, drove to the adjacent republic of Dagestan and seized a hospital and as many as 1,500 hostages. Russia conducted two failed assaults against him; more than 100 hostages died. . .
    link We are creating dozens of Basayevs and sadly I can only believe that is the point of WOT. A self perpetuating terror breeding project designed by maniacs in order to maintain power. They can't be so stupid to think that what they are doing is about bringing peace and stability to the region.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 09:45:04 PM EST
    The U.S is either "the greatest country on God's green earth" or the epitome of evil. Are those really the only two possible ways of seeing the U.S Jim? Apparently for you it is.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:01:23 PM EST
    Posted by Squeaky July 11, 2006 10:27 PM The more I read the more I believe that the neocon war hawks have not bungled a thing. There is countless evidence that the sort of thing we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan does nothing to stanch terrorism but fuels it. The war mongers know this all to well. War, eternal war, serves their purpose.
    It's been the only explanation that fits too many irrational decisions that all combine to produce perpetual war.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#80)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 10:24:14 PM EST
    riverbend has a new post up:
    Rape. The latest of American atrocities. Though it's not really the latest- it's just the one that's being publicized the most. The poor girl Abeer was neither the first to be raped by American troops, nor will she be the last. The only reason this rape was brought to light and publicized is that her whole immediate family were killed along with her. Rape is a taboo subject in Iraq. Families don't report rapes here, they avenge them. We've been hearing whisperings about rapes in American-controlled prisons and during sieges of towns like Haditha and Samarra for the last three years. The naiveté of Americans who can't believe their 'heroes' are committing such atrocities is ridiculous. Who ever heard of an occupying army committing rape??? You raped the country, why not the people?
    Her post is heartbreaking. Read the rest and weep for her and her people. Nothing more to say.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#81)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 11, 2006 at 11:20:31 PM EST
    Rape and murder, particularly by occupying armies, has been part of warfare since day one. They didnt call it The Rape of Nanking and The Rape of Kuwait for nothing. The basic naivete of some Americans is in believing all the misty Lee Greenwood songs and Faux b.s that imply that we must take it on faith that somehow, magically, this time it'll be different. It isnt brutal and ugly even if it appears to be, and any day now the welcoming parade will strike up the band and a beautiful, peaceful Democracy (no hard feelings) will take root. And everyone lived happily ever after.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#82)
    by Jo on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 02:20:46 AM EST
    My neighbor has a 15 year old daughter. Nice ordinary folk. They don't make too much noise. If their daughter were raped, and killed, and burned, and the rest of the family were murdered, and I knew the group responsible, and the police wouldn't/couldn't do anything about it (because the group is an invading army), I believe I would feel compelled to take some action. Wouldn't you?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#83)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 03:42:12 AM EST
    The more I read the more I believe that the neocon war hawks have not bungled a thing.
    I completely agree. Thats why so many of the discussions that we are losing in Iraq are flawed. That start from the assumption that the people running this war have a shred of humanity and actually care about what happens to the Iraq people, at least as a group. Strip that away and then assume that the goal is to control the gas/oil resources and project US military power. Now in that context examine how the war has been/is being waged. The more Iraqis killed the fewer that have to be oppressed. As long as the resources are in the ground and not being sent to China the US is winning. Scary isn't it.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#84)
    by Slado on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 06:36:11 AM EST
    Where was all this compassion when Saddam was raping women for revenge, chopping off hands and starving his people? Or do we only care when the U.S. is accused of such actions. If the left can't see the difference between us and them then it can't be given the responsibility of running our foriegn policy. Thankfully the American people are smart enough to know that and proove it at the election booth.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#85)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 06:43:31 AM EST
    Where was all this compassion when Saddam was raping women for revenge, chopping off hands and starving his people?
    strawman
    If the left can't see the difference between us and them then it can't be given the responsibility of running our foriegn policy.
    what exactly is the difference oh great spewer of factless slogans. We invade a country based on lies and kill over 100k civilains to keep oil and gas in the ground and to get a new place to put our troops and project American power. How exactly does that make us noble or better?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#86)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 08:55:47 AM EST
    Where was all this compassion when Saddam was raping women for revenge, chopping off hands and starving his people? BS. It's a thousand times worse now.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#87)
    by Sailor on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 09:46:08 AM EST
    I have this belief that anything AQ says is a lie.
    It's not just AQ, it's their cousins, townpeople, military investigators ... and quite a coincidence that green was friends with one of the deceased.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#88)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 10:04:30 AM EST
    Slado - Where is all your concern about torture and "rape rooms" when it's a country with a horrific human rights record that the administration plays ball with, like Mynamar or China?

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 10:11:30 AM EST
    I have this belief that anyone who calls a man who picks up a gun after seeing one of his kids blown to pieces "a terrorist", or "a member of A.Q" is irretrievably, monumentally fos.

    Re: Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops (none / 0) (#90)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jul 12, 2006 at 10:29:40 AM EST
    Personally, and I'm sure it comes as no great surprise, I like our new right-wing poster "skip." Although his posts are well written, he might want to shorten them by about 95% - and realize the definition of acceptable "tone" is entirely up to TL - in order to keep off mgt's sh*t-list. I hope he's given some slack by mgt. while he's learning the ropes here at TL.

    Al Qaeda Video Shows Mutilated Troops | 89 comments (89 topical)