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Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways

It was a year ago, after the London mass transit bombings, that New York City initiated a policy of requiring subway riders to submit to a search of their bags. It was supposed to be a temporary measure. Guess what? It's likely here to stay. As I always say, once you give the Government power, it rarely gives it back. How successful has the program been?

The program has resulted in five arrests - not for terrorism, but for drug possession, disorderly conduct and other minor charges.

My solution: A TalkLeft Fourth Amendment Subway Tote or Messenger Bag.

Let the 4th Amendment speak for you as you hand your bag over for a search by a subway or airline security guard. It's a silent protest and reminder to authorities that you consider searches without reasonable suspicion or probable cause to be an infringement of your privacy rights. Graphically challenged as I am, I designed them myself, so you can't get them anywhere else.


Larger photo here. Order here.

They also make great gifts. Hand it to the cops when it's time for a search of your bags. Yes, you have to consent to the search but you can without a word let them know what you think of the intrusion. If you've got a college kid in New York, send them one. We can't remind the authorities often enough of our right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures.

Here's the messenger bag:


Larger photo here. Order here.

How appropriate to hand a bag that reminds the officer of the wording of this great Amendment as he or she is searching through your personal items without a warrant or probable cause.

Back to the New York searches:

The New York Civil Liberties Union believed the searches were such violations of privacy that it went to court last year to stop them. A federal judge disagreed, saying that following the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks the need for such measures was "indisputable, pressing, ongoing and evolving."

The NYCLU has appealed. Its lawyers argue the searches are too infrequent to be a real deterrent, yet frequent enough to violate constitutional rights.

"We're in favor of making people feel comfortable, but not at the expense of the Constitution," said NYCLU Legal Director Christopher Dunn.

One more: Nicholas von Hoffman writing in the Observer:

If random searches of people in the subways are being done for anything except political effect, it's nonsense. The decision to search is a confession of helplessness. It is saying that the police and Homeland Security don't know who the enemy is, so maybe they can get lucky and spot one among the thousands racing to catch the A train.

Analyze it: The chances of seizing a terrorist in the middle of rush hour are almost zero. If the authorities had any idea who the would-be terrorists are or where they're lurking or what kind of terror weapon they intend to use, they would grab them and clap them onto an airplane for "rendition" to some far-off place where the ACLU cannot get at them.

The Patriot Act, the bewildering reorganizations of the various federal police and intelligence organizations, the billions spent on electronic claptrap, the studies, reports and surveys by the commissions, committees and agencies have netted us next to nothing in the way of enhanced safety. In the present atmosphere, the suggestion that there may be a disconcertingly large quotient of stumblebums, lazy bums and crooked bums handling our homeland security is treated as little short of sedition. That fact, coupled with the conviction that criticism of the war which is being waged but not won is unpatriotic, leaves us with but one course of action: to go on doing the same things.

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    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 02:42:16 PM EST
    Nice, but I figured it would be transparent....:-) Is the RFID tracking chip optional?

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 03:00:00 PM EST
    Its lawyers argue the searches are too infrequent to be a real deterrent, yet frequent enough to violate constitutional rights.
    So what should be done?

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#3)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 04:28:32 PM EST
    The purpose of these kinds of searches given that they are unlikely to be a deterrent is they create an atmosphere of fear and worry. This, of course, is fundamental to the Rethugs approach to governing. The Century Foundation has a major report out on homeland security

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 04:36:51 PM EST
    Or you could file suit to stop the illegal search and seizures. That would be more effective than a tote bag.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 04:49:33 PM EST
    njwatcher: Or you could file suit to stop the illegal search and seizures. That would be more effective than a tote bag. Did you not read the post?
    The New York Civil Liberties Union ... went to court last year to stop them. A federal judge disagreed ... The NYCLU has appealed.


    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#6)
    by unbill on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 05:13:22 PM EST
    Just curious - what happens if one were to say no to the bag searches? What do they do, throw you off the train?

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 05:36:47 PM EST
    The program has resulted in five arrests - not for terrorism, but for drug possession, disorderly conduct and other minor charges.
    But criminal offenses nonetheless.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 05:40:29 PM EST
    SD - Yes. We want terrorist to worry about being searched and fear being caught. croc_choda - It would be interesting if the law stated that the search could not result in drug arrests.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 05:46:02 PM EST
    it's funny, but I have yet to be searched. I'm an amateur photographer and on the weekends I'm on the subway with an equipment bag that goes around my waist and stays in front of me. It's somewhat unusual, but I've walked by tables where they do the searches and no one has every stopped me.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 05:48:40 PM EST
    It would be an interesting thought indeed. Soccerdad - Would you be more satisfied if every subway rider were subjected to metal detectors, biological, chemical and nuclear agent screens when entering the subway?

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:00:39 PM EST
    Croc and Jim, Are you really trying to convince me a suicidal terrorist is concerned about bag searches? That doesn't even pass the kindergarten logic sniff test. Ever occur to you that it's only OUR loss when searches are so regular that we stop considering them irregular? That creating a police state might be part of the terrorist plan? That it only serves THEIR purpose? When the next attack occurs, and the security illusion is again revealed, then what do we do? A secure America (as opposed to a secure China, or Russia, or Myanmar, or Libya, etc.) is going to be created (or not) through our imaginative will, our generosity, our choice to emerge from personal ignorance and blind consumerism, and our ability to put to bed violence as glib solution. If we can't sell the world anything greater than we have been, then we're flushing our potential down the toilet. But, alas, we have consuming and wasting and deluding to get busy with.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#12)
    by dutchfox on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:10:51 PM EST
    Good post. We don't have a Bill of Rights anyore; that was pretty much ripped up with the War on Drugs. I read the news story. Interesting that NYPD are doing the searches and not some Homeland Security/TSA types or private company hirelings. JimakaPPJ & croc_choda you are missing totally what soccerdad wrote; read it again.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:15:54 PM EST
    Dadler - So you would rather we do nothing to secure the subways the residents (and visitors) of New York?

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:26:50 PM EST
    The point obvious to everyone but the propagandists among us is that the US has done virtually nothing to make us really safe. The katrina diaster proves that. These searches are not meant to catch anyone. They are meant to scare the sheep. There will be numerous foiled faked/nonserious threats between now and Nov. Maybe even some staged events. Maybe even a real threat they will let slip through the cracks, maybe the Northwoods plan will be implemented. Anyone who thinks the extremist right is going to give up power you're nuts. They may replace Bush with another babbling idiot but the consolidation of power and the wars will continue.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:41:51 PM EST
    Croc, You are offering nothing but false black and white thinking. I'd be impressed if you at least ATTEMPTED to predict my answer. In my previous post, I was pointing out an umcomfortable and obvious reality: That, to break it down to its most basic level, if someone wants to run up behind you, stab you in the back and run away, there is nothing you can do about it. OF COURSE we need to be protective in a reasonable manner, control automatic weapons sales, the sales of chemical precursers to explosives, nukes, water and food safety, all that logical sh*t that HAS NOTHING TO DO with meaningless searches, police state fear garbage, Orwellian surveillance, or any of the like which waste resources and accomplish ZILCH in terms of genuine long-term peaceful security. Sorry, this is not an either/or question. If it were, we could all just check our imaginations at the door. Unfortunately, our current crop of leaders had nothing to check in the first place.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:55:21 PM EST
    In what direction is the search. For those who enter or exit New York.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 06:55:54 PM EST
    Yes, I admit I knew your answer before you responded (at least in principle).
    OF COURSE we need to be protective in a reasonable manner, control automatic weapons sales, the sales of chemical precursers to explosives, nukes, water and food safety,
    As it applies to subway safety: what is reasonable, in your estimation? How about air travel? Are screening and searches prior to embarkment "unreasonable" in your mind? I would like to hear your imaginative proposals to combat terrorism.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 07:25:54 PM EST
    I would like to hear your imaginative proposals to combat terrorism.
    croc_choda, I would like to hear how much further erosion of our fourth amendment rights you are willing to advocate in an effort to combat terrorism.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 07:56:10 PM EST
    In Washington's Union Station you can't take photos. I didn't realize this so I snapped a couple pictures when I was visiting as a tourist. Next thing I knew I was accosted by a burly plain clothes guy (looked like an ex special forces guy). With a serious look in his eyes, he ordered me to come with him. If my friends at the restaurant table nearby hadn't spoken up for me, I'm sure I would have been on my way to Gitmo or a rendition country within the hour. I'm sure it does not take long to book the next CIA Air flight out of DC. And you don't need to pack.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 07:58:02 PM EST
    macro - Do you have a 4th Amendment issue with the screening procedures at airports? Would you have an issue with similar screening at subway entrances? Libby -
    If my friends at the restaurant table nearby hadn't spoken up for me, I'm sure I would have been on my way to Gitmo or a rendition country within the hour.
    Come on. Really. Really?

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimcee on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 08:40:34 PM EST
    Embarassing searches are a regular component of air travel which is pretty routine. Been there done it. So why is the subway any different as they are both mass transit? Opening your bags for a cop is an inconvienence; being vapourized or wounded in a metro tunnel explosion is even less convienient. If you don't want your bags searched take a cab or walk. If you're like me you deal with it. I find it hard to believe that the NYCLU would defend potential bombers...Oh wait, no I don't. Just remember if your visit the NYCLU office building you will be subject to the same search that they are protesting against on the A train. Apparently the NYCLU has a dual policy when it comes to fourth amendment rights. Bombs on the subway are AOK, bombs near the NYCLU are subject to serious concern and search. What hypocrites they are and how predictable.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:01:44 PM EST
    I must have missed some figures along the way. Exactly how many incidents happened (that this search would prevent) before it was enacted a few years ago? Random searches don't work because it's easy enough to adapt to the pattern. Searching each passenger at every stop isn't practical. Take that money and rescue the trainable dogs at local shelters, train them for detection and give them to the homeless people who live in and around the subways. Full time nonintrusive detection.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:42:32 PM EST
    If you hand over your bag aren't you defeating the purpose of the text? (or at least caving in and giving up your 4th amendment rights?)

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#24)
    by Johnny on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 11:30:28 PM EST
    I find it hard to believe that the NYCLU would defend potential
    Thats obtuse, even for you. What about the BOR makes righties think it is disposeable?

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#25)
    by aw on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 11:45:18 PM EST
    There are so many threats of which blowing up the subway is only one. Far more people would be affected if one of the chemical plants in NJ were sabotaged or attacked. What are we doing about that? Nothing. Spare us the must-do-it-to-be-safe BS.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 06:06:34 AM EST
    Ever occur to you that it's only OUR loss when searches are so regular that we stop considering them irregular? That creating a police state might be part of the terrorist plan? That it only serves THEIR purpose? This sounds too much like the standard line "If we don't do.....the terrorists will have won" to be taken seriously. If we defend ourselves, they win. If we don't defend ourselves, they win. In other words, following this kind of "kindergarten" logic, they win. Period.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:05:43 AM EST
    With respect to the bags being sold, if you're a cyclist with a larger messenger style bag, you can pick up some high quality felt at a fabric store, cut an outer-flap shaped piece, paint on whatever message you wish, and safety-pin it onto your bag. I guess if you wanted to be extra fancy, you could figure out a way to attach it to your flap fasteners, etc. I have a couple of these (one has the 1st amendment, another the 4th, another one of the original passages from "this land is your land"). It works well, and you get a little more control over the supply chain (Timbuk2 and Chrome both seem to try to take ethical manufacturing seriously). A good option if DIY is your, uh, bag.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#28)
    by Johnny on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:05:48 AM EST
    Actually JP, the wrong-wingers screwed up when their leader said "They hate us for our freedoms." Upon which they (the idiot-wingers) immediately began to reduce freedoms. The terrorists are winning because we are allowing our fear of an extremely unlikely event control and dominate our lives. Like it or not, we are less free as a result of questionable increases in security. if you voted for Bush, you are responsible.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:16:53 AM EST
    If we defend ourselves, they win. If we don't defend ourselves, they win. In other words, following this kind of "kindergarten" logic, they win. Period.
    No as usual it is you with the kindergarten logic by setting up a strawman. What has the admin. done to really protect us and to help us in the aftermath of an attack. practically nothing. They are only interested in those approaches which will have the desired effects on the sheep without costing corporations any money.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:23:12 AM EST
    I ride the subways in NYC on average of 3-4 times a day, most days of the week. I am usually carrying a large Puma grip bag, or a messenger bag (both large bags holding anything and everything I might need throughout the day). I have never been stopped for a search. I'm female and white. I even make eye-contact w/ the cops manning the entrances, making it that much easier for them to motion me over for a "random" search, but nothing, I am clearly not seen as much of a threat. If the searches were truly random, I can't imagine how I could have avoided them this long. Unbill, if you say no to a search, the cops have a right to deny you access to the subway, at least at that entrance. Which means in most situations, all you would have to do is go back up the stairs, cross the street and use another entrance where no police officers are stationed. Croc_choda, this isn't securing the subways. Anyone giving this more than a moment's thought can figure out a way around the checkpoints - I'm going to go ahead and put terrorists in that category. Furillo, the checkpoints for searches are located before the entrance turnstiles, at some subway stations, sometimes. Jimcee, when you enter the NYCLU building, more than likely, you are doing so voluntarily. Unless you work there, you don't have to do so regularly and as a required part of living your life in the city. Very few people in NY however, can say the same about the subways. They are a necessary and integral component for basic life in the city -- I know of almost no one who does not need to regularly take the subway, they are a basic requirement for city life - just like electrical service is a basic requirement for most people. Walking into the NYCLU building just doesn't meet that standard. It seems to me that the random searches on the subway are a waste of resources and time and are easily avoided by anyone with nefarious intentions. The only possible positive effect of them would seem to be that they do mean more police officers and thus more eyes on alert in the subways (at least at the entrances), which might be some sort of a deterence for your more garden variety criminals.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:52:32 AM EST
    Something that is missing from this conversation are metrics. Croc, Dadler, and others are debating how reasonable searches are vis a vis security needs. It should be possible to think about some ways to get at this "reasonable" concept quantitatively. As I've said elsewhere on TL, terrorism is a highly non-random phenomena. In addition, real terrorism seems to be planned and carried out by an exceptionally small group of people in most places. This is a problem domain where essentially random sampling methodologies are likely to have little success. If what you're looking is non-randomly distributed in a teeny tiny part of the population you're trying to sample, your sampling strategy must take that into account. Given how difficult this is, if what you're trying to find is all that important, then typically blanket screening is going to be a little more sane strategy speaking purely pragmatically. Similarly, even if it highly invasive, blanket screening is a little more fair and perhaps less susceptible to corruption, because you no longer are relying on unknown (unreliable? I'd guess that...) powers of discrimination of the people carrying out the searches. I'd hypothesize that in this situation (given similar findings elsewhere) that the searches aren't random at all, but their distribution across the population of subway riders doesn't (how could it?) the distribution of would-be terrorists in the population of subway riders; rather, it reflects the distribution of threat in each searcher's head. I would submit that this makes random searches pretty much the stupidest way to actually achieve the goal of deterring or minimizing the damage of a terrorist attack on mass transit. There's no guarantee of fairness, the chance of success given the parameters of the problem approaches zero, and it damages fundamental constitutional protections and notions of legal search and seizure (which I care about deeply). However, it does make for grand flourish and gesture for political PR machines. [Full disclosure: I'm not a formally trained statistician. I have a B.S. in physics with an emphasis on visualization of probabalistic phenomena and I did my (uncompleted) masters work on sampling and classification methodologies, drawn from information science, for determining quality of response and prevention programming for rape on campus, and my commercial work is in creating market-research web applications. That's a fancy way of saying I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, but am by no means an expert in the population dynamics of terrorism.]

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#32)
    by roy on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:55:20 AM EST
    This style of deflection is common, but I don't see any merit in it:
    I would like to hear your imaginative proposals to combat terrorism.
    It's argued above and elsewhere, rather well, that the bag searches are ineffective and illegal. Unless there's good evidence to the contrary, which no comments above have bothered to point out, the searches should end based on that. Why should we need to propose an effective approach in order to advocate ending an ineffective and harmful one? If your doctor tells you you have cancer, you don't demand that he give you super powers before letting him cut out the tumor.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 07:57:04 AM EST
    So why is the subway any different as they are both mass transit?
    One difference is the citizens of NY own the subways, the airlines are private companies that can decide for themselves what their procedures are.
    So what should be done?
    Keep on livin' free and travelin' free without allowing state agents to poke their snouts in your business. It's dangerous but worth it.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 08:39:03 AM EST
    terrorism is a highly non-random phenomena. In addition, real terrorism seems to be planned and carried out by an exceptionally small group of people in most places. This is a problem domain where essentially random sampling methodologies are likely to have little success.
    I totally agree. What trends have emerged from the terrorist attacks that have come to date? Are there any demographic trends that we should note? How about if we reduced our "random sample" to a more specific sample? Would our potential success in thwarting terrorist attacks improve?

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#35)
    by roy on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 09:01:04 AM EST
    One difference is the citizens of NY own the subways, the airlines are private companies that can decide for themselves what their procedures are.
    I'm fairly sure they can't decide for themselves. The FAA and Congress wouldn't go for that. Plus, there are some public airports, and they too have intrusive security measures. With airlines, there's a long history of hijackings and bombings, versus only a handful of subway attacks. It's also practical to screen everybody before letting them on a plane, so it probably really does improve safety, versus the "be afraid and vote for me" illusory safety of random searches. Plus, a damaged or hijacked plane is a danger to people on the ground who didn't accept the risks of flying, versus a train which is on tracks. So, airports: higher risks when security is lax, higher confidence of improving safety by searching. The searches grate on some libertarian principles, but they're palatable imho.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 09:07:15 AM EST
    With airlines, there's a long history of hijackings and bombings, versus only a handful of subway attacks.
    I know this sounds suspiciously strawman-esque but... are you suggesting we should "wait" for subway attacks and deaths before we implement security measures?
    It's also practical to screen everybody before letting them on a plane, so it probably really does improve safety, versus the "be afraid and vote for me" illusory safety of random searches.
    Is it necessarily impractical to screen people before they get on the subway? Both have discrete, controlled access points. It would certainly create an inconvenience but if it improves security...

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 09:25:42 AM EST
    I know this sounds suspiciously strawman-esque but... are you suggesting we should "wait" for subway attacks and deaths before we implement security measures?
    With that logic all highways should have a choke point to stop car bombing in the US. Or better yet why wait for them to poison our reservoirs. Lets drain them as a preemptive measure. That'll show em who is boss. The searches are a waste of resources and have nothing to do with thwarting terror. In fact, if anything, they are terror tactics. The showy searches make the public more afraid.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#38)
    by roy on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 11:57:02 AM EST
    Long post ahead. Summary: random searches useless, screening everybody overkill and very expensive.
    I know this sounds suspiciously strawman-esque but... are you suggesting we should "wait" for subway attacks and deaths before we implement security measures?
    Generally speaking, we should wait for some kind of rational justification for any specific security measure before implementing it. NYC-style random searches don't seem capable of benefiting anybody in any way; the risk of an attack is almost irrelevant because these searches wouldn't stop an attack. Airport-style searches could improve security, but let's look at the bigger picture: We already have lots of security measures in place, ranging from dropping bombs on terrorists abroad, to customs checks, to old fashioned police work. Given the scarcity of subway attacks, either those measures are effective at keeping the risk of such attacks low, or the risk was low to begin with. So I don't see an urgent need to improve security further. If there's a cheap, safe, convenient way to improve security further, that's cool; anything as intrusive as searching everybody is overkill at this point. That's not even addressing the legal questions, or the fear many of us share of giving the government power even if it seems like a good idea at the time. So we don't necessarily wait for an attack before tightening security; we wait for something more than vague threats of the sort we can handle with existing measures. Sticking with my medical metaphor: your doctor doesn't do exploratory surgery on you just in case there's something wrong in there, he uses less invasive tests until he sees something to make him think they're inadequate.
    Is it necessarily impractical to screen people before they get on the subway? Both have discrete, controlled access points. It would certainly create an inconvenience but if it improves security...
    I don't have real numbers handy, but I'll hazard a guess at just how inconvenient. A sizeable portion of New York rides the subway twice per work day. An average delay of even ten minutes per trip per rider -- which seems optimistic, given that usage surges around rush hours -- adds up to 10 * 2 * 5 * 52 = 5200 lost minutes = 87 lost hours per year for those people. Compare to an unusually frequent flier, making 12 round trips per year, showing up one hour early to deal with security like they suggest, for a total of only 12 * 2 = 24 lost hours over the year. That's my guess at a typical-case subway scenario, and a worst-than-most case airport scenario. If I'm even close, then screening all subway passengers is far more costly (per passenger) than screening all airline passengers. Should we pay that cost for an improvement in security which is already good?

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 01:50:54 PM EST
    Re: the question of why subway searches are any different from airplane searches. That's not an unreasonable question, and I have two responses. First, as Iphie says above, with rare exceptions, if you live in NYC you use the subway. Period. This is not a luxury, it's not something one does occasionally when going on vacation or on business trips. It's a necessity of living in this great city. It's as much a part of one's daily life as walking. Which segues to my second reponse: What if the police decided to simply set up random sidewalk checkpoints, and stopped every 5th person just walking down the street? I would think -- I would hope -- you'd agree that would be an unwarranted and unreasonable intrusion on people's privacy. Just an illustration how on the flip side of every incrementalist argument is a slippery slope...

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 03:06:58 PM EST
    The most obvious trens to note are that the attacks, schemes, groups and cells are closely connected to the same few countries' intelligence/justice agencies. They are also closely tied to international business networks like the ones Abramoff was instrumental in leading. The trends show a majority of the low to intermediate level participants as being mentally challenged with combinations of exceptionally high/low iq and or mental/behavioral disorders that predispose them to drug abuse and other forms of exploitation.

    Re: Bag Searches Now Routine on NYC Subways (none / 0) (#41)
    by roy on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 03:31:42 PM EST
    Ah, numbers!
    ...over 1 billion people go through the turnstiles per year!
    Ignoring "over" to make the math easy and generous: If we delay those billion people by 10 minutes each, that's 19,012 man-years spent waiting to get through security per calendar year. For comparison, the Empire State Building took a mere 799 man-years, and when they were done they had something useful. And if a security screener takes just 5 seconds with each of those billion passengers, that's 1.39 million man-hours of labor per calendar year. At 40*52=2080 man-hours per worker per calendar year, they'd need a staff of more than 668 full-time screeners just to make sure all the riders get screened eventually. Much more if you want to keep the lines short and attain the 10 minute wait mentioned above. School teachers or SWAT teams, I'm sure every New Yorker could think of something better to do with that much civil servant service.