Saturday Open Thread

Our last open thread is full. I'd like nothing better than to hang around today and chat, but I'm about to head up to the jail in Georgetown. Georgetown is the last exit on I-70 heading west from Denver before the Eisenhower tunnel. It's a beautiful day for the ride.

I know there's a Russian indictment and a new Supreme Court Justice and Donald Trump is out of the Country. Rising on the UK Music charts: Green Day's "American Idiot".

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Wednesday Open Thread: All Over the Place
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    Republicans, with (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 04:06:39 PM EST
    their partisan incontinence, seem unable or unwilling, to grasp the gravity of the Russian cyber-attack, apparently, as Trump faithful leemings, they cheer on, or say Amen, to Trump's rally cry of hoax (the hoax that took place on Obama's watch), and ignore Putin's past and future attacks, because they helped Trump win and Hillary lose.  And, because liberals.

    But, you might think that impairing, obstructing and defeating the lawful governmental functions of the US by criminal means so as to interfere with the US electoral process might cause, at least, a little change of heart.

     The Russian intel officers infiltrated state-level election systems,including the computer networks of state election boards and company that supplies software used to run elections.  Stealing in one state a half million voters personal information,including names, addresses, birth dates, and partial social security numbers. Stealing and posting online under false identifies. Equifax only wished they would be so forgiving.

    On the same day of the devastating indictments, July 13, Director of National Intelligence, Dan Coats, said that the "warning lights are blinking red."

     The response of House Republicans is to draft impeachment articles for Rod Rosenstein. Of course, on the heels of their humiliating Strozk hearing.

     While not a worry as long as an impeachment is in the hands of the hapless Republican Judiciary Chair Goodlatte, Asparagus aspersions Gohmert, and the merry band of House Republicans, who are either incompetent or masquerading as such to cover their treasonous complicity. Or both.

    Partisan Incontinence? Classic. (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by CoralGables on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 08:44:39 PM EST
    The Ustashe-member Croats (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 08:42:52 PM EST
    during WWII, did a little more than just scrappily survive enemy invasions, as I recall..

    Making too-sweeping generalizations about large swathes of humanity, whether they happen to speak French or Croatian, will get you into trouble every time.  

    To Peter (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 12:20:37 PM EST
    Since the last thread was dead I wanted to say thanks for the info on the Northern Baptists. IIRC the reason there is American Baptist and Southern Baptist is due to the Civil War where a split happened between the Baptists over the south's support of slavery.

    According to the Wikipedia article (none / 0) (#2)
    by Peter G on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 03:19:48 PM EST
    that I linked in my previous post, the schism did focus on slavery but came prior to the Civil War. The article says the Southern Baptists originated as a breakaway faction in the 1840s, after the national convention resolved that slave-owners were not qualified to function as a Baptist missionary.

    TV and film reviews (none / 0) (#4)
    by linea on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 04:29:19 PM EST
    Season 2 of GLOW (Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling) is terrible. Apparently, someone had a show concept for a first season but didn't what to do when it was renewed for a second season.

    Jurassic World. Tedious, boring, and predictable. A volcano is going to erupt on the now defunct Jurassic Park island. Star Lord and his plucky assistants are tasked with rescuing the dinosaurs but the mercenaries who are assisting have different orders. All the bad guys get mauled or eaten by dinosaurs and all of the good guys escape unharmed. At no time, does Groot appear. This film is little more than the set-up for the next in the series where dinosaurs run riot in L.A.

    Oceans 8. Has none of the thrill or excitement expected of a heist film.

    Incredibles 2. Much better than the original (I disliked the parents arguing in the original) and the animation is excellent.

    Thanks, looking (none / 0) (#5)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 04:39:00 PM EST
    for a good movie, did you like Post?  Or, Small Town Crime.   Any other heist, cop type, thriller, spy movie?    

    I liked... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by linea on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 06:06:47 PM EST
    Hi KeysDan!

    I liked The Post. Great story writing and the best acting. But was I subjected to mansplaining after the film, `Did you learn something? It's about freedom of the press. That's the First Amendment.'

    Deadpool 2 is still showing in theatre. It's rather amazing that the writers and producers made this film humorous enough (I'm clearly not the target audience or demographic) that even I was entertained. And then I was taken to an excellent Korean dumpling restaurant.

    I've never heard of Small Town Crime. I liked Molly's Game.

    The End of the FxxxING World
    Great Gilly Hopkins
    Sadie's Last Day on Earth
    Alias Grace (mini-series of 6 episodes)
    What Happened to Monday (SciFi)

    Netflix documentaries I recommend:
    Wild Wild Country
    Natascha Kampuchea: The Whole Story


    And... (none / 0) (#12)
    by linea on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 08:00:45 PM EST
    For more twisted:

    Breathe (2014) Director: Mélanie Laurent
    I loved this film even though I hate foreign language films and hate the French formulaic.

    Sister, My Sister (1994) Director: Nancy Meckler
    In my opinion, the best English language depiction of the true Papin Sister incident (Christine and Léa Papin) of any film.


    much (none / 0) (#16)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 08:26:55 PM EST
    Appreciated. A good list.

    watched the (none / 0) (#20)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 08:46:18 PM EST
    Post tonight, pretty accurate history. Superb acting, and timely. Justice Black's opinion that the freedom of the press is for governed not the government sure has currency. Very good movie.

    Red Sparrow was good (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 07:17:36 PM EST
    I'm watching Handmaids Tale.  


    Not what you would call escapism.  At least not these days.  But so good.


    Red Sparrow (none / 0) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 07:21:18 PM EST
    Is currently on PPV

    did enjoy (none / 0) (#17)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 08:30:18 PM EST
    Red Sparrow.

    In the interest of accurate information (none / 0) (#43)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 07:00:56 AM EST
    here's a partial list of sites streaming PPV movies

    As well as anyone who has any form of cable

    I use Red Box sometimes.  They tend to get movies earlier than others.  sometimes.


    PPV? (none / 0) (#22)
    by linea on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 09:33:55 PM EST
    Pay Per View? Like boxing?

    FYI: If it's not on Netflix or Amazon (and Hulu) it's not generally accessible.


    Definitely (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 08:07:57 PM EST
    not escapism but I see it as a cautionary tale to look for certain things that are going on. Some of the things in the show or the book already have happened.

    God it's grim (none / 0) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 08:11:14 PM EST
    And almost to real.  

    I think it's really too bad more (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 08:15:35 PM EST
    People are not seeing it.  The fact it's only on Hulu is great for Hulu I guess but this is something every person in this country needs to see.

    How far along are you? (none / 0) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 10:53:22 PM EST
    I really needed shots after 3 episodes.  I thinkin it probably doesn't get more upbeat.

    You know what's interesting, how dark it is.  Not thematically tho it definitely is that.  It's shot SO dark.  Have you noticed this?  so much of it is shot in almost total darkness I had to change the settings on my tv.  Even the outside in the sunshine shot seem dark.


    I started watching on Friday (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 12:49:17 AM EST
    Only two episodes so far

    I have watched the (none / 0) (#41)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 05:52:32 AM EST
    entire series. I started a few weeks ago and then I had to wait until every Wednesday when a new one was released.

    I too noticed how dark it was shot. Even outside every day looked overcast.

    And no, it generally does not get more upbeat though there are moments.


    IMO (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 05:53:42 AM EST
    the first episode was the most depressing. Of course, the child snatching that was going on in Gilead is what Trump has been ordering here.

    The third episode did me in (none / 0) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 07:49:59 AM EST
    Watched it last night when I couldn't get back to sleep

    The GOP would be fine (none / 0) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 07:51:31 AM EST
    Hanging someone for being gay. They would refer to some obscure bible passage too.

    It's very interesting how (none / 0) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 08:07:14 AM EST
    They have perverted religion fully to a political weapon.  Just like they are trying to do now.  Tearing down all the Catholic churches was a nice touch.  Believable.  One of my favorite scenes is when June finishes a bible quote bAck to Aunt Lydia giving it context and gets a cattle prod in the face.  

    I assume they are following the book which I never read but may have to.  But the fact Atwood ties in "reducing the carbon footprint" and "saving the planet" shows she was unable to imagine how truly evil they are.   In more recent time one thing that's become clear is the people who would do this could care less about saving the planet waiting as they are for the rapture.


    Over the 4th, some folks we visited (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 08:29:01 AM EST
    And the subject came up that the University of Vermont asks students how they want to be identified...if they want to be identified hetro lgbtq. One person for some reason was outraged that a Q was added. They were really upset about this questioning thing and they wanted to start some big ragathon about this.

    I wasn't kicking off my holiday this way. I looked them in the eye and said I really didn't care if someone was questioning their own sexuality. And I didn't understand why I should get all flustered and care. It doesn't really affect my life.

    The upset person said that now we would be guilty of using the wrong pronouns....sigh

    I'm already guilty. One of the students I recently did a costume for is trans. I messed up a couple of times though when I was extremely focused on the costume and fitting. Just apologize!

    The student understood, I grew up in a world I was told was all straight and everyone had one set of gonads or the other :) They really really lied to us because 4% of human beings are not born anatomically clear in this respect but only pediatricians knew this "secret". Sadly my brain is old. But just apologize! Apologies in the age of Trump are some sort of outrage though.


    You know (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 11:04:44 AM EST
    that person really just spilled the beans inadvertently on what is going on. What shall I say is their main concern. I can't handle all this is the mindset. It's change is bad is their mindset. I'm like you. I really don't see how any of this affects me but then I'm not as self centered as a lot of these people are and they just can't get past the "me" part of the equation.

    And what does affect us? (none / 0) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 06:02:06 AM EST
    When young people are so miserable inside they can barely function. Their suicides.

    These internal issues and external issues have always been there though. We just didn't name them outside of backhanded whispers.

    They don't want to lose that ability to backhand others verbally and socially.


    Secret is right (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 09:01:34 AM EST
    I read recently Jamie Lee Curtis was born "ambiguous".   In the 80s in NY my female room mate worked for one of the primary doctors in the city that did the surgery.  I was exposed very early.

    just reading this

    For proof, one need only look south to Mississippi, where an extreme anti-LGBT law known as HB 1523 remains in effect, in part thanks to the Supreme Court's January decision not to hear a challenge to it.

    That law specifically enumerates a small handful of religious beliefs--namely that marriage is between a man and a woman and that gender can't be changed--and then expressly protects discrimination based on those beliefs. HB 1523 doesn't just apply to wedding-related services; rather, it can, as The Daily Beast's Jay Michaelson noted, be cited by virtually anyone: doctors, therapists, landlords, employers, and so on.

    Back to Handmaids Tale
    After several episodes it seems Atwood assumed in 1985 that when this happened it would be primarily about power and religion would simply be a tool and a weapon.  And that the ones (men) behind it had very little as far as any real beliefs.  That pretty clear from the actions of many of the characters.  Don't know if you have gotten to June's reunion with Moira yet.

    This was just as Reagan was encouraging the crazy religious right to spread their wings.

    It seems in real life, while it's clearly about power I think their twisted beliefs play at least an equal role.  And unlike the story where even the "wives" are totally under the thumb, and not entirely happy about it, there seems no shortage of women playing an equal and active role in the subjugation.  Because it's turning out to be not entirely about women but a whole list of "others" that plenty of women are more than happy to target

    If real life now was a  blatantly gender based as the series I think it would be easier to fight.  I suspect they have read Atwood and took lessons.


    I left it at episode 3 (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 09:19:21 AM EST
    It was a lot to take in in our current situation

    The thing (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 11:00:01 AM EST
    that I found most interesting is the fact that women are willing to subjugate other women. Serena Joy basically treats June like trash most of the time.

    I actually see a lot of evangelical community in the use of religion as a weapon. How many evangelicals have twisted the bible for their own means? And evangelicals would be just as happy to eradicate mainline Christians as they were in the story. In fact one of the goals of evangelicals is to eliminate the competition so to speak and have everyone absorb their beliefs so that the only religion is evangelical Christianity.

    The first season pretty much follows the book. Season two adds onto the book. At the end of the book it talks about Gilead in historical perspective and finding Offred's diary and alludes to the fact that Offred escaped from Gilead. So I am guessing season 2 on is about filling in the blanks between the years.


    YES! Evangelical women subjugate other women (none / 0) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 05:50:17 AM EST
    I experienced this once. I was having a disagreement with my spouse and I got a bible verse quoted to me by a Christian woman I barely knew. It was some crap about how my husband is the master of my life.

    My husband was instantly let off the hook hahaha. I can't even remember what the disagreement was. I just remember her and my pivot toward her and what I spoke next. I said that I don't believe that "stuff"...any of that ridiculous religous "stuff".

    That's right, if someone attempts to subjugate me using their faith I will call their faith "stuff" and ridiculous. I was shocked at how easily women did that to each other in Southern Alabama. And that's how you get a majority of white women voting for the child molester.


    What was (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 06:28:44 AM EST
    her reaction if any?

    I was pregnant with my oldest around these people and if you think they say something about an argument you cannot imagine what they say when you are pregnant. They are baby obsessed. It's like you are no longer a person. You are an incubator.


    She acted like I had slapped her (none / 0) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 06:45:13 AM EST
    We were constantly recruited by (none / 0) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 06:51:50 AM EST
    Different churches. I was raised Lutheran so we decided to attend a Lutheran church to end the recruitment effort and "fit in". I guess the church was also in the midst of a Methodist takeover, not certain I would have cared about all that. But the minister announced that we would now sing Onward Christian Soldiers in honor of our troops in combat. I was overcome by a hacking fit and got up and left. I wasn't faking it either.

    There are always collaborators (none / 0) (#80)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 07:12:17 AM EST
    Always some who are willing to accept their own subjugation if it means they may get a few crumbs of power or maybe it will hurt their enemies more

    Look no further than the Russian annexation of the republican and media right fringe


    I finished season one (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 07:18:58 AM EST
    I can tell you it does get a bit better.  A few sprouts of hope.  
    I read about season 2 and the plans for season 3 and there is likely to be at least a season 4.  And yes they left the book behind at the end of season one.

    You really should dive in again.  Even Serena Joy appears to have an interesting story arc.


    If you went to the (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 07:20:12 AM EST
    one in Enterprise it's a Missouri Synod Lutheran church. My oldest went to a preschool at one of those and I liked the people at the preschool. So we went one time and having family that are Lutherans I had been in the Lutheran church many times. So we went to that church and I thought what has happened to the Lutheran church I once knew? Well, after talking to my family who are Lutherans they told me that you have to look at the kind of Lutheran church it is. I thought it was like Southern Baptist meets Lutheran. My cousins told me Missouri Synod Lutherans are whacked and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans are double whacked. They said that the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is the normal Lutherans.

    I wasn't there long enough (none / 0) (#84)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 08:14:21 AM EST
    To sort all that out.

    I was told that adults attended bible school before regular service too. So I did, I tried it.

    The first thing that was discussed was a verse about not being saved through good works. That was so counter to what I was taught as a child. And I was not taught exactly that good works would save me, but I was taught that giving to those in need keeps my spirit healthy. This whole over focus on that good works verse seemed to me to be encouragement to be selfish and self centered.

    Then we discussed what we learn when we go through hardship. I thought that was a good discussion until someone began talking about "the word" and how intoxicating "the word" was and their eyes glazed over and they went into some sort of transfixed state. Nah! I'm not doing that crap :)


    That whole (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 08:33:36 AM EST
    "not saved by good works" thing is big in Southern Baptist churches but since you've probably never been to an SBC church you probably didn't recognize it. IIRC the Missouri Synod church we visited that one time the entire sermon was about the evils of abortion.

    The whole "saved" thing is a bunch of hooey in my opinion and I told some Southern Baptists who came to my door as much.


    The Book (none / 0) (#53)
    by jmacWA on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 10:16:06 AM EST
    Actually, I think they are now into a time the book doesn't cover.  I've only seen the first season, but it seemed to me that it ended pretty close to where the book ended.

    I'm really really hoping (none / 0) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 10:23:14 AM EST
    They get some payback.  My brain will need it

    Yeah, (none / 0) (#59)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 10:51:51 AM EST
    it is strange. There is a lot of things that are similar yet not.

    In a way (none / 0) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 10:58:53 AM EST
    For me,  that makes it a bit easier to watch.

    YES, my rational brain says,  this is fiction.

    I think that is not by chance.  Show runners want a show people will watch not they will hang themselves after the 3rd episode.

    Season three.
    I think they are going to give us payback.

    Otherwise it really feels like masochism  


    Not going (none / 0) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 11:01:12 AM EST
    to spoil it for you but I will tell you that at the end of season 2 it does look like payback is coming.

    WOO HOO (none / 0) (#64)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 11:06:11 AM EST
    Watch yer butt Commander.

    Seriously, I can't remember if this guy won anything at the EMMYs but he should

    A more perfect portrait of slithering evil I can't remember


    Joseph Fiennes (none / 0) (#68)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 12:17:41 PM EST
    Also played Cardinal Timothy Howard in American Horror Story.

    Really enjoying the World Cup (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 04:40:50 PM EST
    This past week. It was hard to watch Belgium lose to France. Both such good teams right now. And I really don't know who to root for tomorrow either. I think France is the better technique team, but my God Croatia has heart, fearless heart and their country is going through hell right now.

    I don't pay attention (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 06:42:10 PM EST
    ...to "football" except for World Cup.

    A professional or club player is looking for a long career, or at least a long season.  

    Not these guys.  They play every game with desperation and no tomorrow. They will risk career ending injuries. This is more than a game.  

    Amazing that small countries are competitive with big ones in this sport.  If you have eleven guys who can play, that's all you need.


    2-1, France over Croatia (none / 0) (#56)
    by Peter G on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 10:29:57 AM EST
    At halftime. Great game so far.

    4-2, Vive la France (none / 0) (#66)
    by Peter G on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 11:35:55 AM EST

    I really loved that Belgian team myself (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 08:52:37 PM EST
    that Hazard-De Bruyn-Lukaku counterattack when it was clicking was amazing. But France may just have the new Pele with Mbappe. He's one of those wildcards that France's opponents so far haven't been able to find an answer for.

    All props to Croatia though. I hope the final is as great as it has the potential to be.


    Belgian ice cream!! (none / 0) (#23)
    by linea on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 09:34:37 PM EST
    I find myself disappointed in Mbappe :) (none / 0) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 08:05:10 AM EST
    He seems to have that skill that Pele had, about knowing where everyone on the field is and projecting out possible plays a couple of plays out. But Pele also seemed to carry himself with great dignity. Maybe I have that perception of Pele because I was just a kid.  Mbappe is only 19 too right now.

    Can you imagine being 19 yrs old and making 1.7 million a month doing what you love?


    I hate sports (none / 0) (#9)
    by linea on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 06:57:15 PM EST
    But would cheer for Croatia 🇭🇷 over France any day.
    Even the French hate France.

    Croatia is a `scrappy fighter' having survived threats from the Ottoman Empire, French imperialism, Nazi Germans, and the Soviet Communists.
    Gotta love 💕 that.

    Napoleon Bonaparte invaded the region with his Grande Armée after key wins during the War of the Fifth Coalition forced the Austrian Empire to cede parts of its territory. Integrating the land into France was Bonaparte's way of controlling Austria's access to the Mediterranean and Adriatic Sea and expanding his empire east. Bonaparte installed four governors to disseminate French bureaucracy, culture, and language.

    P.S. I am intending the informal pedestrian usage of `scrappy' to mean `determined' so I don't want any criticism for my colloquial word choice.


    Croatia aligned itself with Nazi Germany ... (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 10:21:01 PM EST
    linea: "Croatia is a `scrappy fighter' having survived threats from the Ottoman Empire, French imperialism, Nazi Germans, and the Soviet Communists. Gotta love 💕 that."

    ... upon the Wehrmacht's conquest and occupation of Yugoslavia in April 1941. The Independent State of Croatia functioned as a willing Nazi puppet state, and the Croats were given free rein to persecute all non-Croat peoples residing within its borders, which included Jews, Roma and Serbs. And wielding their dreaded militia, the Ustaše Black Legion, they did just that with some real gusto, patterning their race laws after those of their Third Reich mentors.

    The Serbs, on the other hand, resented and resisted the German presence, and suffered dreadfully for it, often at the hands of the Croat Ustaše militia. It's been estimated that some 400,000 Serbian civilians were wantonly slaughtered by the Ustaše during the Second World War, and those atrocities are often cited as the root source for the lingering animosity which still exists between present-day Croatia and Serbia.

    After the Second World War, with Ustaše leader Ante Pavelić having escaped Allied capture to flee to Argentina, Yugoslavia was reconstituted as a communist-led totalitarian state under the heavy-handed leadership of Josip Broz, aka "Marshal Tito" or "Tito," who subsequently proved himself to be no Soviet puppet.

    During the war, Tito had proved himself an effective military leader as head of the Yugoslav Partisan resistance, a fierce and formidable guerrilla movement that ultimately tied down nearly two dozen German divisions in the Balkans which were otherwise sorely needed elsewhere. And unlike the other nations of Eastern Europe, the Yugoslav Partisans had effectively liberated themselves by the fall of 1944.

    Following the war, Tito soon defied Stalin, and by 1948 Yugoslavia had broken away from the Soviet-dominated Cominform, which was perhaps better known as the Warsaw Pact. Under Tito's post-war leadership as Marshal of Yugoslavia, the title he held from 1943 until his death in 1980, the country was well known for its non-aligned status and relatively harmonious relations with the West.



    Jesus Christ. (none / 0) (#32)
    by linea on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 11:03:01 PM EST
    This is supposed to be a light-hearted discussion of footballers and France v. Croatia.

    I don't know anything about Croatia.

    But if you want to be insanely nitpicking than I should have written: `The Croatian people are scrappy fighters having survived... `

    A mere recitation of the historical record does not suffice in presenting the true story of World War II in Croatia. Using monuments of victims of the War as well as available published sources, the author has determined that a listing of those Croats killed as Partisans or as Victims of Fascist Terror would allow readers to come away with a better understanding of the War in Croatia and an appreciation of the deep memories of the Nazi and Italian Fascist occupation which continue to inhabit the Croatian psyche.

    The roots of Anti-Fascism in Croatia date from the appearance of Fascism in neighboring Italy. Italian Fascism embodied imperialist ambitions toward ethnic Croat areas, as vividly shown in Istria and Rijeka (Fiume). The poet Gabriele D'Annunzio, a progenitor of Mussolini, and his thugs known as the Arditi seized control of Rijeka to thwart any peaceful negotiations concerning the disposition of Rijeka following World War I. Ultimately, Italy annexed Rijeka and Zadar (Zara), the entire Istrian Peninsula, the islands of Cres and Lošinj and a number of other islands, despite the fact that ethnic Italians constituted a small minority of the population in these areas.

    Mussolini's Fascist state took stringent measures to convert these areas to purely ethnic Italian territory. Fascist authorities banned the public use of Croatian in all forms. They even prevented new born children to be registered with Croatian and other Slavic personal names. The Croatian intellectual and business class fled. An estimated 100,000 Croats left Istria alone by the early 1930s while special Fascist tribunals sentenced many Croats to long prison terms even executed others (e.g., Vladimir Gortan). The plight of Istria, Rijeka and other areas annexed by Italy remained an issue close to the hearts of all Croatians during the inter-War period.

    Let's be clear here (none / 0) (#33)
    by linea on Sat Jul 14, 2018 at 11:24:26 PM EST
    • The Germans were the militaristic racist Nazis.
    • The Russians were the Totalitarians murdering millions and sending millions more to slave labor camps in Siberia.
    • The Italians were actual Fascists who commited war crimes.

    Reasonable people don't pick on poor little counties swept up in a world war.

    Lets be even clearer here (5.00 / 9) (#37)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 03:41:19 AM EST
    if you have an aversion to confronting the limits of your historical knowledge, don't be the one to inject French imperialism, Soviet communism, and the Nazis into a discussion of the World Cup.

    A thousand 5's (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 07:53:42 AM EST

    France willfully collaborated with Nazi Germany (none / 0) (#34)
    by linea on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 12:19:00 AM EST
    Smithsonian Magazine

    Was Vichy France a Puppet Government or a Willing Nazi Collaborator?

    The misconception that the Vichy Regime was the lesser of two evils endured only for the first few decades after the war. Since then, as more archival material has come to light, historians have gradually come to see the collaborators as willing participants in the Holocaust. Before the Nazis ever demanded the Vichy government participate in anti-Semitic policies, the French had enacted policies that removed Jews from civil service and began seizing Jewish property. The Vichy French government participated willingly in the deportations and did most of the arresting.


    The Holocaust: The French Vichy Regime
    The "French state," (L'État Français) in contrast to the "French Republic," willfully collaborated with Nazi Germany to a high degree: raids to capture Jews and other "undesirables" were organized by the French police not only in the northern zone - occupied by the German Wehrmacht - but also in the southern "free zone" which was occupied only after the Allies invaded North Africa in November 1942.

    Really? You want this agrument over who to pick in the France v Croatia football game?


    That's one of France's dirty little secrets from the Second World War. The unilateral decision by Gen. Charles De Gaulle and Free French forces to refuse to recognize their country's surrender to Nazi Germany on June 25, 1940 and to continue fighting was not necessarily representative of overall French public opinion at the time.

    The tragic but militarily necessary British assault on French naval forces in port at Mers-el-Kébir, Algeria on July 3, 1940, which effectively prevented the French fleet from defecting to the Germans, was the immediate source of tremendous French ill will,. That ill will was further extended to the Americans upon U.S. entry into the war in December 1941.

    As a result, it's also true that the first shots fired by U.S. forces during their North African invasion at the Battle of Casablanca (Nov. 8-16, 1942) were against Vichy French forces defending Morocco, and not against the Germans. Four U.S. troopships and five French warships were sunk, and 174 American and 462 French military personnel were killed in the protracted naval engagement, which was a U.S. victory.

    But that said, I was merely responding to your earlier comment about Croatia, in which you clearly stated that the country had resisted the Nazis during the Second World War. And as I subsequently noted in clarifying the historical record, that was simply not correct.

    One of the most unfortunate and ugly truths about the Second World War is that in the course of carrying out their systematic crimes against humanity, Nazi German forces had received an awful lot of local help from fellow fascist collaborators throughout occupied Europe.

    And for obvious reasons, I consider it vitally important for people to always remember that, if only to recognize the innate capacity of men and women to later rationalize their own subsequent behavior and folly during times of great national distress.

    Because over the coming months and years, as the full extent and ugly truth regarding Donald Trump's collaborative efforts with Vladimir Putin's Russia and other fascist movements around the world comes to light, we're likely going to see and hear a lot of Republican attempt to subsequently recharacterize their own respective roles in facilitating Trump's rise to power in our own country.



    Maybe (none / 0) (#71)
    by ragebot on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 02:52:01 PM EST
    America will switch sides with Russia as many times as Finland did in WWII.

    Worthy of note is that Finland is the only country that repaid it's WWII debt to the US.


    Howdy and Linea, stop the (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 12:44:26 AM EST
    bickering. No one is interested in your insults to each other. If you have something to say, by all means comment. If you disagree with another poster, just do so civilly. I've deleted several of your comments in this thread, and have better uses for my time. I also don't want you deteriorating the conversation with your insults to each other.

    Sorry (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 05:44:09 AM EST
    I know better

    The Hell of the North today (none / 0) (#38)
    by ragebot on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 04:17:31 AM EST
    the infamous Paris-Roubaix bike race is one of the most feared single day classic.  Today's leg of the Tour includes some of that course; to wit the cobble stones which take a terrible toll on both the bikes and riders destroying machines and rattling the teeth of their riders.  Every day of the Tour gets at least half a million sets of real time eyeballs watching the action in person and a days of spectators often tops a million peeps watching in person.  The entire event will have between fifteen to twenty million peeps watching the race in person.  The TV audience is even larger.

    In 1985 (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 10:17:37 AM EST
    ...I got a magazine assignment to cover the Giro d'Italia, the Italian three-week stage race that features pretty much the same people.

    I rode in the follow car with the coach of the American team.  For 100+ miles or about six hours you drive down a road lined three deep on both sides with cheering fans, an eerie corridor of noise that never lets up.


    Hard to understand the (none / 0) (#69)
    by ragebot on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 02:45:40 PM EST
    Tour (or the other two classics, the Giro or Vuelta) unless you have been there in person.  While there are crowds all along the roads there are some places like the cobblestones of the Hell of the North and some brutal ascents or the finish at Champs-Élysées where the crowds are so massive many of the spectators are not able to see anything, and often not hear anything but the crowd noise.  There have been several times where a spectator has affected the riders by contact; like today when Richie Porte crashed or when Lance got his handle bar caught in a spectator's bag.  I am not aware of any other big time sporting event where spectators have the same level of contact they do in the classics.

    The Tour in 1985 was won by Bernard Hinault who was probably past his prime and got great support from his American team mate Greg LeMond, in return for a promise to support LeMond in the next years race.  When Hinault failed (according to some) to keep his word LeMond won the next year (becoming the first American to win the Tour) and Hinault who came in second retired.

    After recovering from a hunting accident LeMond returned to win two more Tours including the in 1989 edging Laurent Fignon by eight seconds on the final day.  I was able to go to France that year and probably could write a book about the memories from that race.  As a 15 time Ironman triathlon finisher I was a early adopter of the same aerobars LeMond used in the time trial the final day to win, as were most triathletes of that era.  LeMond was an inspiration to Americans and to some extent a thorn in the side of Europeans who viewed Americans as upstarts in cycling.  Even though LeMond was fluent in French and his last name was the same as the name of maybe the most popular French newspaper he still was often viewed as an outsider.


    I'm not a big racing fan but I am fan (none / 0) (#72)
    by McBain on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 03:00:27 PM EST
    of LeMond. He was the real deal.  

    I raced bicycles (none / 0) (#73)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 12:42:31 AM EST
    ...in the '70s, just enough to find out how hard it was and realize my future lay elsewhere. But riding in a peleton beats the hell out of reading about what it's like.

    Every one of my bachelor roommates was a bicyclist. One, Kent Bostick, made the Olympic team four times and was National Road Champion at the age of 35. My friend Mike Neel was the coach of the 7/Eleven international team, and I accompanied him to both the Giro and the Coors Classic.

    Greg Lemond came over to our house after winning a local criterium when he was 18. He was riding for Hinault's team La Vie Claire when I was at the Giro, and because they were not the team I was with, there was little mingling other than perfunctory greetings.  Of course all the Americans knew Greg, but he was with the French team.

    Right now Peter Sagan is my favorite bicyclist.  I have a photo of him holding a copy of my book.

    One of my other roommates was named Gary Fisher, a Category I racer.  A few years later we rented a garage and started building bikes. we called our two man business MountainBikes.


    The queen took one (none / 0) (#52)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 10:12:14 AM EST
    for the team.  A skilled diplomatic host at her castle despite Trump's oafish behavior.

    So was Teresa (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 10:38:03 AM EST
    When it came to it.  They know what they are doing.

    After Tomorrow I think it's unlikely any western democracy will share any Intel with us as long as Trump is in the oval.

    It's said some or maybe most of Trumps animus toward them is the likelihood they shared Intel that will be his undoing.


    That's what he means (none / 0) (#70)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 02:47:40 PM EST
    when he said, as he did today, that the "European Union" is a foe.  His.

    My heart belongs to MANDZUKIC (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 10:47:32 AM EST
    What a fearless badass

    I'm watching (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Peter G on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 11:13:29 AM EST
    France's 19-yr-old Mbappe.

    First teenager since Pele (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 15, 2018 at 12:16:00 PM EST
    to score a goal in a World Cup final.

    I purchased a very old china cabinet (none / 0) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 06:12:56 AM EST
    Yesterday on the app OfferUp. It is a commonly available antique in this area. I've seen many variations of it, but this one was one of the nicest. The mouldings more elaborate than most. Now that it is home I understand why I see this specific cabinet over and over again. The stamps on the back read made in Baltimore.

    But the person I was purchasing from requested that I pick it up well before or well after the World Cup game. I told him no problem. When I went to get it I was greeted by a Croatian immigrant. Such a nice family too. They had just bought a house and the cabinet didn't fit. I felt terrible leaving with the beautiful cabinet though. When they first got here they furnished their home out of thrift stores and I was taking one of their precious finds.

    I love living here. I love all the people I get to meet here.


    I know nobody wants to talk about Trump (none / 0) (#83)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 07:41:27 AM EST
    And even less his tweets but this is really pretty unbelievable

    Russian Foreign Ministry 'likes' Trump tweet on American 'stupidity'

    Trump posted on Twitter Monday ahead of a meeting with Vladimir Putin in Finland that relations between Washington and Moscow had "NEVER been worse."

    He added that the deterioration was "thanks to many years of U.S. foolishness and stupidity and now, the Rigged Witch Hunt,"

    The Foreign Ministry, also an active Twitter user, first "liked" the post from the American president.

    After it was noticed by reporters, the ministry put out a less subtle message saying "we agree" with Trump.

    He gets more (none / 0) (#85)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 08:18:39 AM EST
    and more brazen regarding his relationship with Russia and the GOP sits around with their thumbs up their butts doing and saying nothing.

    We are going to have a cyber 9/11 (none / 0) (#86)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 08:31:14 AM EST
    If you believe Dan Coats (none / 0) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 09:35:00 AM EST
    And I am not saying I do, it could be Russia that has a cyber 9/11.  He just said as much in an interview.  'You want to play this game, ok, we will beat you.'

    I go back and forth  

    I think there is no doubt we could beat them.  Russia I a small pretty insignificant power these days.  The economy is in tatters.  We have 10 times the resources and a massively more powerful military.

    Clearly there is a group that wishes to remind him of this.

    I think that recent round of indictments more than anything was aimed at Putin.  Look, this is how much we are willing to tell you we know about what you have done and what you are doing.  Imagine what ESLE we know.


    The best (none / 0) (#89)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 16, 2018 at 11:05:14 AM EST
    gif I have seen on this whole thing is where Putin says the communists were so stupid. They spent millions on weapons and I (Putin) bought the party of Reagan for kopeks on the ruble.