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Duke Lacrosse Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 07:17:27 PM EST
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The Dukesters haven't had an open thread all week and they are busting the comments at the seams, so here's one for them.

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    Duke Lacrosse Open Thread | 483 comments (483 topical)
    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Lora on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 08:23:28 PM EST
    Posted by SomewhatChunky July 3, 2006 05:36 PM
    Nice try.
    Thanks! (and thanks JSwift)
    Your scenario requires that many if not most of the partygoers were aware what was going on and that many would lie or coverup what happened. The old "blue wall of silence." I strongly believe that would not happen. This is too serious.
    I'd like to think so.
    It doesn't explain the lack of physcial evidence.
    I guess I still would like to know what's on the rest of the medical reports, and find out what the head nurse meant when she referred to the story of someone (AV I think) being consistent with the injuries found, what the ESPN source actually saw and heard, etc.
    It requires an "adjustment" of a number of eyewitness reports in regards to time etc.... In other words, you need to make up or edit what people who were there said.
    As far as time goes, Bissey is the only one, really...his times don't match up with the first set of photos or with Kim's first 911 call, so it isn't a stretch to think he's off on the other ones. If I give him "midnight," all we know is that everyone was inside the first time when he looked at his cell phone, but we don't know how long they were there. He seems about 15-20 minutes fast all night.
    You need to make something completely up (the part about the Kim and "paid" sex).
    Yeah, that's completely made up. But...from the little I know about such parties, not out of the question.
    You just ignore the statements of the players, Kim and most of what the AV said.
    I'm mainly sticking with the AV's story (from Shelton's report and the search warrant and her interview). I'm suggesting she didn't protest as much as she says, and more than Kim says. The players say the women didn't return to the house once they left. That's contrary to Bissey's story. Kim has already officially changed her story. I view hers as incomplete and exaggerated about how caring she was for the AV.
    Since timestamped photos don't fit your timeline, you ignore them. Hard to ignore the watch photos, so you just leave those out.
    I'm suggesting that the first set of photos were taken by a different camera than the last set, and that the camera clock on the first set was fast, and the dance happened earlier. You're right, that would blow the matching watch out of the water. The picture I saw of the watch, I couldn't make out the time. I don't know, maybe they can enhance it and see the time. Nice to see that enhancement and verify what they say about it.
    You really give Reade and some other unidentified players for some quick thinking to establish alibis. If they were so bright, don't you think that the idea of a gang rape in a house full of people with multiple witnesses wasn't a good idea.
    I think the cover was paid sex...in fact I think they may have figured they already paid for it and didn't really view it as a real rape, got mad when she resisted, and let her have it (IF it happened). Then it was like "Oh sh*t."
    It doesn't address the multiple stories of the AV.
    True...I still am not sure how much she said, how much was inferred or perhaps misunderstood. Personally I am fairly convinced that her "recantation" to Shelton was a misunderstanding (she hadn't been raped yet), and her 4 dancers was a misunderstanding, (she was listing the employees of the escort service). I try to go by her own words from her interview, although I'm not sure that she was as dramatically scared and protesting (and actively resisting?) as she said.
    You throw in the old "we just don't know" in an effort to add credibility. It doesn't. I would submit that a prosecutor should "know" a few things before he or she proceeds with a case.
    Eh..well, the "We just don't know" was mainly a meager attempt at humor. But...yes I'm still hoping that within those 1800 pages is some more information.
    If your story relies on the need to alter almost every fact or eyewitness acoount that is known, accuses a large number of eyewitnesses of lying or a coverup, disregards all known physical evidence, add a few facts of your own with no evidence from anyone and places your faith in one victim's statement who has made a number of differing statments - well, that is what you wind up with - a story.
    Well I agree with you on the sentence I put in bold. But I think mainly the facts I "altered" were Bissey's timing, the first camera time, and suggesting that the two sets of photos came from two cameras.
    Not a prosecutable case.
    Not from what we've seen.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 08:41:59 PM EST
    Bob,
    Would you say "Hispanic" is a true race? It's something you can check on a box on a U.S. government form defining one's own race, but an Hispanic can be Mexican, Dominican, Cuban, Brazilian, Chilean, Argentinian, etc. His genetic makeup may or may not contain unequal parts of various Native American subgroups, European or African ancestry. An Argentinian whose ancestors all migrated from Germany can be an Hispanic like a dark-skinned Cuban.
    Agreed, Hispanic is clearly a made up construct to describe certain Spanish speaking peoples. It did not exist until very recently as a category of race.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 08:53:39 PM EST
    Bob, Read carefully your last post and agree with everything except for the last sentence of which I am not sure. Thank you.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 08:56:13 PM EST
    farenham, thank you I will remember to look for meta-analysis in the future.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by JK on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:08:14 PM EST
    Lora posted:
    True...I still am not sure how much she said, how much was inferred or perhaps misunderstood. Personally I am fairly convinced that her "recantation" to Shelton was a misunderstanding (she hadn't been raped yet), and her 4 dancers was a misunderstanding, (she was listing the employees of the escort service). I try to go by her own words from her interview, although I'm not sure that she was as dramatically scared and protesting (and actively resisting?) as she said.
    What about the Sutton report? How do you account for the 5 attacker version? How do you account for the accusation that Nikki participated by trying to coerce her to do a trick?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:20:32 PM EST
    Bob, upon further consideration I do agree with your last sentence, thank you.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:30:32 PM EST
    Bob:
    Hispanic can be Mexican, Dominican, Cuban, Brazilian, Chilean, Argentinian, etc.
    Just to confuse thing more I will add that Brazilians are not Hispanic. Also, people within Spanish speaking Latin American countries most definitely seperate themselves into different races (usually depending on skin color).

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:36:10 PM EST
    Another question would be why did the LAX captains show such an alarming lack of leadership to allow this whole thing to happen? I have stood up for the LAX team in this case more than anyone else on this board but I do feel that the captains let everyone down and showed remarkably poor judgment in having strippers over to their house. Nothing good could have come from this. The captains essentially set themselves and the rest of the team up for this sort of thing to happen. I'm sure they now know this and feel very bad about what the indicted underclassmen are going through. If I were a captain, I would be devastated. The captains have learned the hard way that it is important not to put yourself and teammates in a position where bad things can happen.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 09:44:47 PM EST
    Noname, Brazilians speak Portugese and I suspect many consider themselves white, correct?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Lora on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 10:35:32 PM EST
    jk, I think Kim/Nikki was more into the return trip than the AV, but the AV went along with it, if only to get her shoe back. Then Kim could have misread the AV's fear and clinging or discounted it, and the coercion was so that each could get to her job. I admit the Sutton version is over the top. But if the AV was hysterical at the time, you'd have an almost impossible task getting a sensible story out of her. Did Sutton provide a description of the AV? Calm? Crying? Hysterical? The ESPN source said hysterical and the search warrant said behavior consistent with going through a traumatic experience. I guess I'm still having a hard time believing that that evidence was just made up.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 11:02:12 PM EST
    Didn't I just say this. At least one other person agrees with my that the Durham letter writer was kind of mixed up.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 11:11:55 PM EST
    PB asked:
    And what percentage of the people tried and found innocent of the charges for which they were tried would you guesstimate were in fact guilty?
    80%.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 11:25:33 PM EST
    Where's Roy Cooper?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 11:53:31 PM EST
    Lora, You're letting your desire to want to believe the victim trick yourself into thinking you are not making stuff up when you are.
    I guess I still would like to know what's on the rest of the medical reports.
    Eventually you will. For now, this is "We just don't know." You're making stuff up to imply otherwise. You do know the defense cannot release the medcal report. Those who do know what the reports contain and are talking say there is nothing there. We beat the comments of the nurse to death - most felt she was talking generically, not about the AV at all. She was not specific.
    As far as time goes, Bissey is the only one, really
    No he's not. The players timeline, the cabbie and the physical evidence all say the same thing. You agree you made up the part about paid sex. Yet this fabrication is key to your story.
    I'm suggesting she didn't protest as much as she says, and more than Kim says.
    You're making that up.
    I'm suggesting that the first set of photos were taken by a different camera than the last set, and that the camera clock on the first set was fast, and the dance happened earlier.
    You made that up as well.
    I think the cover was paid sex.
    You said that before. That is a complete fabrication and it is key to your story. Neither the players, the AV or KIM have brought that up or suggested it.
    I am fairly convinced that her "recantation" to Shelton was a misunderstanding (she hadn't been raped yet), and her 4 dancers was a misunderstanding, (she was listing the employees of the escort service). I try to go by her own words from her interview, although I'm not sure that she was as dramatically scared and protesting (and actively resisting?) as she said.
    Why are you convinced? Any factual reason? It seems to me just another thing you made up.
    But I think mainly the facts I "altered" were Bissey's timing, the first camera time, and suggesting that the two sets of photos came from two cameras.
    See above. Almost all of your scenario was made up based upon things you think. Things without any shred of evidence. Indeed, you are repeatedly willing to disregard or modify evidence we do have to fit your beliefs. That's not the sign of an objective observer. I know form your previous posts and the course you are taking that you must be interested/concerned about the whole area of rape. I agree that it can be a very difficult crime to prosecute, especially when there is liitle or no evidence. It is especially difficult when the accused claims it was consensual. I think that a highly publicized case of this type is the worse thing that could happen for future rape victims. If the AV turns out to be lying (and the evidence we know to date makes that appear likely), the effect will be cause people to make it even harder for both victims and AVs to move forward with charges in the future. Especially because of the amount of publicity this case has received. People tend to extrapolate the recent past - fewer rape victims will be believed or trusted, especially ones with less than stellar backgrounds. This case will be used as an example of why they should not. Ask yourself how you feel about that.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 03, 2006 at 11:53:55 PM EST
    An oldie, but a goodie: Posted by Lora May 4, 2006 08:40 PM All right, you want evidence? Here's evidence. If anybody wants any of my links, I'll post them. Search Warrant: Medical records and interviews...revealed the victim had signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally. Furthermore the SANE nurse stated the injuries and her behavior were consistent with a traumatic experience. Theresa Arico, sexual assault nurse examiner and coordinator of Duke Hospital program (Herald-sun via NCCU Eagles fan page): "You can say with a high degree of certainty that there was a certain amount of blunt force trauma present to create injury." "I can reasonably say these injuries are consistent with the story she told." ESPN hospital source: "She was hysterical," the source said. "She was crying, she was pretty banged up. She said she was sexually assaulted, but she didn't say by whom." The source says...She was walking on her own, but there were bruises on her face, neck, and arms. A triage nurse attended to her, but the woman did not want him to touch her because he was a man. She was then examined by a sexual assault nurse. There were injuries to the woman's pelvic area, the source said. "She never said one thing about Duke, any athlete or anything," the source said. "She just kept hollering and screaming. She never said who did it." Nifong (via Abrams report and Rita Cosby): "Duke University Hospital is the best trauma center in the area. This nurse was specially trained in sexual assault and I would just point out that my conviction that a sexual assault actually took place is based on the examination that was done at Duke Hospital." "There is evidence of trauma in the victim's vaginal area that was noted when she was examined by a nurse at the hospital. And her general demeanor was suggestive of the fact that she had been through a traumatic situation." "The victim's demeanor, the fact that when she was examined by a nurse who was trained in sexual assault, there was swelling and pain in the areas that would have been affected by the rape. The victim gave signs of having been through a traumatic situation. She seemed to be absolutely honest about what had occurred to her." AV's father (via NBC17): "Her face was all swollen up, her jaw. She couldn't half walk. One of her legs was hurt."

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:08:03 AM EST
    fahrenam posted:
    However, if you do an article search in general for genetic variation among races, you will find that virtually all scientists believe that race is a social, not a genetic construct.
    I don't believe this is accurate. If you look at a large number of genes and a population sample and use an objective mathematical procedure to divide the sample into clusters based on the gene values I believe you will get groups which are very similar to the commonly accepted racial groups. For example suppose you look at 1000 genes and each has two alleles one (African form) found in 2/3 of Africans and 1/3 of Europeans and the other (European form) found in 1/3 of Africans and 2/3 of Europeans. Suppose further the values of the alleles for each diferent gene are independent. Then no single gene will tell you much but if you look at all 1000 genes in a 1000 dimensional space, Africans and Europeans will form two distinct fuzzy clusters. A hyperplane going through points with 500 "African" alleles and 500 "European" alleles will divide the two clusters with almost no people on the wrong side. Of course this assumes "pure" types. There was always some mixing between the main racial groups and with improved transportation it has increased. People with one African parent and one European parent will lie between the two clusters (think of two large star clusters with a few stars scattered in between) and are best thought of as being of mixed race, assigning them all to one race is an arbitrary social convention. Note different reactions to a drug may depend on a single gene in which case prescribing on the basis of race would mean 1/3 of the patients in each race would get the wrong treatment. It would be much better if feasible to look at the gene directly and give everybody the appropriate treatment for people with their allele.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:36:32 AM EST
    Regarding scenarios in which the AV actually was raped, I am a little reluctant to give Nifong ideas but I will offer one. Kim raped the AV with an object when they were in the bathroom together and the AV was too messed up from from some combination of alcohol, drugs and mental problems to accurately remember what happened. The AV just knew her v*g*n* hurt and she made up something to account for the pain. Note I don't actually believe the above but it seems more plausible than scenarios in which the three accused gang raped the AV.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:47:38 AM EST
    James B., Do you have a link for the mathematics behind multidimensional space and hyperplanes?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:53:20 AM EST
    How many different alleles are there for any given gene? How many genes on a chromosome are genotyped for the purposes of DNA testing in a criminal case?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by JK on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:17:46 AM EST
    James, Re: Race and hyperplanes Do you know of any studies that provide empirical support for this theory? Of course, one could define a hyperplane that will almost perfectly divide "racial" clusters in hyperspace, but upon what objective criterion do you define the equation for the hyperplane? R[Race] = ??? How do you know ex ante that this hyperplane will divide the data more "cleanly" than any other hyperplane (or even more than an "average" hyperplane)? I don't think those who say race is a social construct are saying that genetic characteristics are completely randomly distributed between races. They are saying the variation within racial groups is greater than variation between racial groups. I don't think they would deny that there are fuzzy racial clusters in hyperspace with predictive value for certain attributes.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:56:43 AM EST
    David in Ct. You wrote:
    Another way to ask the question is if someone came to you and said you must go to jail for 20 years and be branded forever a rapist or we have to let 1000 rapists free, what would you do? My rule of thumb is if I don't have the balls to do it myself I wouldn't ask someone else to do it for me.
    I continue to be amused by this quote. How many rapists do you think you would let go free before you would be willing to do the twenty years? Would a million do it? Would it matter if they had raped your wife? Or yourself? Would you prefer to be raped a thousand times than to do the twenty years? Bob in Pacifica, You wrote:
    PB, care to try to construct how a gang rape could have possibly occurred given the evidence that is known?
    Sure. It's an initiation gone wrong. The plan is to hire hookers, but Kim gets spooked by the rowdiness. The accuser winds up in the bathroom but things very quickly go South and she winds up getting hurt, somewhat in the manner of Elizabeth Shue's character in Leaving Las Vegas. This all happens between 11:50 and 12:05. Most of the people at the party have no idea what went on in the bathroom, but they are well aware who was in the bathroom with who, and they are aware that, to the extent that they were hooting and hollering outside the door, they might be regarded as complicit. The captains try and make it go away, but their stories don't jibe well enough. Ever since they've been relying on the fact that she's "just a stripper." The players who weren't at the party believe that. The parents believe that. The loyal Duke alumni believe that. And they're ready to run with it. You wrote: Don't mean to be churlish, but saying that something may exist doesn't make it so. Coming from you, Bob, that is churlish. You are the King of speculative fact-generation here. You spend most of your time begging me to do the same thing. Then criticize me for doing it. Neat-o, little man. Neat-o. You wrote:
    PB, so that means you have nothing to lead you to believe that a gang rape occurred?
    The fact that I can't say that a rape didn't occur doesn't mean I believe that it did.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:21:30 AM EST
    There's only a one problem with your theory PB, the initiation part. Duke athletic teams don't generally have initiation rituals other than maybe making the freshman make the gatoraid and carry it to the field. It would also be unlikely that two sophmores and a senior would be receiving an initiation, and finally spring break might be a little late for initiation. Although we used to make the freshman do skits, that was our "hazing." They liked doing it though. Why do you hate Bob so much?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:26:07 AM EST
    If I was presented with David in Connecticut's conundrum by an all powerful god, I would turn down the offer to go to prison, and let the rapists go free. Since my life had essentially been forfeited by taking freedom over prison, I would then turn into a Charles Bronson type character and hunt down and kill the 1000 guilty rapists.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by ding7777 on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:10:41 AM EST
    to PB
    I continue to be amused by this quote. How many rapists do you think you would let go free before you would be willing to do the twenty years? Would a million do it? Would it matter if they had raped your wife? Or yourself?
    I would allow vigilante justice for the rapist(s) before I was willing to do 20 years in prison
    Would you prefer to be raped a thousand times than to do the twenty years?
    OUCH! The women would probably be dead. But if she was raped a 1000 times over a 20 year period (avg once a week for twenty years) - that's a tough choice.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by cpinva on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:12:30 AM EST
    lora says, in part:
    But...yes I'm still hoping that within those 1800 pages is some more information.
    for all intents and purposes, we know what's in those 1800 pages, and it isn't damning evidence. if it were, it would've been leaked already. it hasn't been. btw, i have a bridge in brooklyn for sale.................... lora said, in part:
    Well I agree with you on the sentence I put in bold. But I think mainly the facts I "altered" were Bissey's timing, the first camera time, and suggesting that the two sets of photos came from two cameras.
    which makes them not facts, but speculation. Lora said, in part:
    The ESPN source said hysterical and the search warrant said behavior consistent with going through a traumatic experience. I guess I'm still having a hard time believing that that evidence was just made up.
    this would be the search warrant based on a then non-existent medical report? yes, that's certainly a credible source of information. again, if that medical report contained any damning evidence, we'd know about it by now because, again, it would've been leaked. it hasn't been, so it doesn't. frankly, i'm getting a whiff of tawana brawley from all this. the only difference (a huge difference really) is that there isn't a national black "leader" (ala al sharpton) standing at the AV's side. could it be they too suspect they're being "brawley'd"?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 06:32:33 AM EST
    Does anyone have the link to the ESPN report Lora keeps referring to?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:10:19 AM EST
    Newport
    Noname, Brazilians speak Portugese and I suspect many consider themselves white, correct?
    Yeah. My point was that while a white guy in the US refers to a Hispanic race, supposedly Hispanic people actually tend to divide themselves into black, white, Jewish, ect. A white Argentine, for example, would call himself white, not Hispanic. So race is less a definative difference in populations than a socially contructed marker.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:14:23 AM EST
    PB's theory of the case: Sure. It's an initiation gone wrong. The plan is to hire hookers, but Kim gets spooked by the rowdiness. The accuser winds up in the bathroom but things very quickly go South and she winds up getting hurt, somewhat in the manner of Elizabeth Shue's character in Leaving Las Vegas. This all happens between 11:50 and 12:05. Do you mean that the rape happens before they enter the house and before they finish dancing? Unique.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:17:14 AM EST
    PB howls: You are the King of speculative fact-generation here. I take facts and speculate. Different from "fact-generation." But you can go back and show me all the facts I've generated.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:22:31 AM EST
    I asked PB: PB, so that means you have nothing to lead you to believe that a gang rape occurred? PB then didn't respond: The fact that I can't say that a rape didn't occur doesn't mean I believe that it did. That's a very funny, very wobbly tightrope you're on. I asked you about evidence and you answered with a garbled, confused statement about your beliefs. That's a good enough answer for me. You've got nothing on which to base a belief that there was a rape. Just your belief, which you won't admit to.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:27:16 AM EST
    Ah, Newport! On the Fourth of July we should all go out and rent a Charles Bronson movie. I remember a parody of Bronson movies with him doing "Hamlet." Think it may have been in Mad Magazine. A hoot.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:27:46 AM EST
    To be or not to be... BLAM BLAM BLAM!!!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:28:42 AM EST
    I continue to be amused by this quote. How many rapists do you think you would let go free before you would be willing to do the twenty years? Would a million do it? Would it matter if they had raped your wife? Or yourself? Would you prefer to be raped a thousand times than to do the twenty years?
    And just how many times in prison would you get raped in 20 years? I really find this whole subthread amusing. We are comparing a one time rape with repeated rapes over a much longer period of time. We are also forgetting that MOST rape victims have men in their lives who would, if given the chance, harm the rapist in various ways. Lastly they have society's sympathy and many support services and victim's advocate. The unjustly convicted rapist or child molester gets none of that while he is in prison paying anally for his crime. But who cares if we have to sacrifice him? He's just a man, after all, and women NEVER lie about rape.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:32:08 AM EST
    This hasn't been discussed as much recently, but who here thinks there's a good chance the ID of the three players will be inadmissable in court because proper procedure (use of fillers) wasn't followed? I think this is one of the biggest problems the prosecution has (and there are A LOT). If that happens, the case is over before it begins. On another point, "hispanic" is not considered a race, it is an ethnicity. Seems like semantics, but it's not. Turns out that those people who consider themselves hispanic also consider themselves white, black, native american, etc. So it's procedure now in the national census, scientific studies, etc to ask first "what race are you?" with the options including white, black, etc but NOT hispanic. Then there is a question that asks "Do you consider yourself hispanic or Latino?" So, someone brought up Brazilians--they definitely consider themselves latino, but there is a range from blond, blue-eyed Brazilians to dark black Brazilians, to Asian Brazilians, the whole range. They ALL consider themselves latino, but would all list different races.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:34:42 AM EST
    He's just a man, after all, and women NEVER lie about rape.
    Only somewhere above 9 percent and below 40 percent of the time do woman lie about rape. I would guess it's about 25 percent of the time.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:45:13 AM EST
    The idea of race had more appeal when there was less science around. Black v. white was okay when the government was trying to figure out who were slaves without rights and who were free. That carried over with the post-Civil War suppression of blacks' rights. Kim Roberts grew up in a cultural context that wasn't Korean, but if you were to look at her genetic makeup, half of it came from her mother, so she's presumably 50% Asian. If her father is like most African Americans, she's got a mixture of black, white and Native American, so chances are that she is more Asian than African as far as her genetic makeup. That has nothing to do with her self-identification or how the good citizens of Durham identify her. You can find subsets of populations that carry certain genetic markers, but all people whose genetic makeup derives from African ancestry don't carry sickle cell, for example. Race, as it was known a couple hundred years ago, was a means for organizing and dividing societies, something necessary for European conquest and the subsequent justification of colonizing forces' actions. Most of the "science" regarding race that arose back then has been utterly disproven or shown to be irrelevant to any real scientific discussion.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:51:49 AM EST
    The legal question, a matter of constitutional law, is whether the identification procedure used was so unduly suggestive as to lead to unreliable results. There may be cases with more tainted id procedures but this one ranks right up there. The failure to use fillers in violation of the DPD's own internal guidelines (should have been 5 fillers per suspect arranged in a book, i.e., 46 pages of 6 photo's each) should constitute prima facie evidence that the lineup used was unduly suggestive and unreliable. Multiple lineups using the same photo's is also problematic and evidence of a constitutionally infirm procedure. Suggestive comments during the id procedure another problem. Telling the FA that all the photo's were LAX players allowed her to make any pick she liked without having the possibility of a wrong answer. Her credibility was not tested by the procedures used. This creates an unreliable procedure that promotes misidentification. Any in court id would also be tainted from the photo id procedure and would have to be supressed because it would be unreliable and carry the very real risk of misidentification.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:54:52 AM EST
    fahrenam, yes, you got me. Hispanic is an "ethnicity," which is not race. But as with your examples, race is also ethnicity. There is an African American ethnicity that overlaps is not entirely consistent with any genetic makeup. As I said, Kim Roberts is more Korean than African American, but from the quotes I've seen, she speaks in a patois that is certainly American, probably greatly informed by the African American community in Durham. Does culture trump genetics? Depends on who's making the judgment.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 07:59:07 AM EST
    Actually, Bob, I think we're in agreement about race, ethnicity, and genetics. I was making the point about hispanics to clear up some earlier points where other posters thought Brazilians would be considered white, not hispanic or latino. I actually thought your post was insightful and showed a good understanding of what I've been trying to say over the past day or two.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 08:11:26 AM EST
    Regarding the IDs, think about this: NIFONG AS THE ULTIMATE HYPOCRITE Nifong has this case. He knows it stinks from the start. He sees it as a way to win the primary, but he doesn't believe there was any gang rape. He doesn't particularly have any love for Duke or its rich boy athletes, but he doesn't want to send anyone up to prison for a crime that they didn't do. He knows the identification guidelines set down by the state but does his whole little ID game precisely so that the case will eventually be thrown out. This would ensure his primary victory and would eventually free the innocent. +++ Of course, it would mean that Nifong is an incredibly evil man to be holding the office of DA, playing with people's lives in order to get reelected. On the other hand, even before the DNA evidence came back Nifong knew what a crappy case he had in his lap. Despite comments to the contrary, he may also have known all about the lack of evidence about the 1993 rape claim, the complaint against the AV's estranged husband, certainly her criminal record. We don't know but there may have been police involvement with her hospitalization for mental illness last year which would have given him further insight into the character of the AV. He undoubtedly knew the contents of the SANE report and how they didn't match the AV's various stories. And he knew she had various stories. In short, he should have had plenty of reason to move cautiously, but instead jumped into this case with many public inflammatory statements which motivated a large segment of the population to vote for him. He also should have known that the three ID sessions without any fillers were way out of line and would certainly be questioned in court. Now, subsequent to the primary Nifong is either playing the greatest rope-a-dope round in history, or he's just letting the case fall apart. +++ Yeah, I know, it's speculation, but anyone else wonder about this? I don't think Nifong is dumb and I don't think he's crazy. How about calculating and evil?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 08:27:11 AM EST
    I think he's just dumb and a fool and was an easy mark (white guilt, liberal prosecutor, didn't like Duke because of some grudge, etc.) for the sob story the FA was peddling and he got duped into believing her. Now, he's backed himself into a corner from which face-saving extraction is impossible, so he further convinces himself that he believes her. I really don't think he thinks he did anything wrong with the lineups. He was playing poker with the lineups. He figured if she fingered the wrong guys than the wrong guys would roll on the right guys. All's well that end's well so to speak.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 08:31:32 AM EST
    You know what else I think, he never put her under cross and tried to find out if she was making the whole story up. That is inexcusible.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 09:11:27 AM EST
    Newport, I think he didn't question her story precisely because he knew how bad it was. That, to me, shows an intent to push this case despite knowledge of how weak it was. I don't think he acted because of any white guilt on his part, or because he is stupid or nuts. I think he knew what he was doing, considered the consequences and went ahead with the case in the way he did because it was going to be politically beneficial to him. That's not guilt. It's lack of guilt. Of course, as PB would point out, it's all speculation. As imho would say, WE DON'T KNOW!!! Until Nifong writes his confession, we don't know.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 10:00:48 AM EST
    PB:
    I continue to be amused by this quote. How many rapists do you think you would let go free before you would be willing to do the twenty years? Would a million do it? Would it matter if they had raped your wife? Or yourself? Would you prefer to be raped a thousand times than to do the twenty years?
    Letting rapists go free does two things. It gets the rapists out of being punished and also gives them a chance to do it again. Giving up my life so that someone else can be punished is not a trade I am willing to make. This is not to say that if someone hurt someone in my family that out of my own emotional needs I would not want to wreak some serious havock on their body and soul. As for the part about rapists being able to do it again and so by sacrificing my life I would be able to save others from the pain and suffering of the trauma of rape that would be a more difficult decision. It would probably come down to numbers and certainty and how much it would effect my immediate family mostly my kids. If the attacks were to happen in some far off land (like NC) the answer would probably be no. In some ways I make this decision every day by not stopping the life I currently have and crusading for people who are poor and or under siege. There are wars and famines going on daily all over the planet that I guess if my sole focus was to help I could probably make some marginal difference. So in the end I guess I am not suited for sainthood. Perhaps when I get older and my responsibilities to my kids diminish I will put forth a greater effort to save the world.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 11:17:15 AM EST
    Catching up on the comments, after a wonderful few days spent at my brother's (another Duke alum, to balance out the two Tarheel brothers) beach house. Jeez: been reading for half an hour and I'm still on June 30, so don't know if this possibilitiy has been mentioned, re the artificial nails: many of them come already "painted" so the AV could have unstuck a few, replaced a few, whatever. This would not have left smears on the railing, I don't think, but would explain the ones found in the trash. Back to my reading: Still trying to picture the actor who should play Nifong. Laroquette is good, but he'd have to hitch his pants up a few notches and add some padding. Plus there's have to be some prosthetics to recreate the Nifong Schnozz with that weird bump in it.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 11:28:52 AM EST
    imho:
    Forced anal sex does not need to be physically violent.
    You're kidding, right? noname said it well:
    Would it seem strange to you that there was swelling of the vagina but not the anus in this case?
    I said much the same, a while back, when I was wondering if Kim's car was searched: an*l rape by two men would almost certainly result in bleeding, hence blood, and other material, on the passenger seat of Kim's car

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 11:37:29 AM EST
    cib: gotta let it go, buddy. Don't you know that imho is the only one who gets to make jokes about mothers? Now she will bring up what you said whenever she is at a loss for words (not that it happens all that often) to counter any legitimate argument you make.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:01:24 PM EST
    SharonInJax posted:
    cib: gotta let it go, buddy. Don't you know that imho is the only one who gets to make jokes about mothers?
    It's not about the joke, Sharon. It's cib's "cute and funny" cover up. cib's always saying those "cute and funny" things about imho. hahaha. SharonInJax posted:
    Now she will bring up what you said whenever she is at a loss for words (not that it happens all that often) to counter any legitimate argument you make.
    What legitmate argument have you made that I countered with your humanization of the accuser? Never happened. Kinda funny that cib claimed her jab at parents who tend to their children was an effort to "humanize" imho. hahaha.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by january on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:08:01 PM EST
    It's not about the joke, Sharon. It's cib's "cute and funny" cover up.
    Now that azbbfan's gone, nobody's better at manufacturing cover-ups than IMHO.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:21:26 PM EST
    Back to my reading: Still trying to picture the actor who should play Nifong. Laroquette is good, but he'd have to hitch his pants up a few notches and add some padding. Plus there's have to be some prosthetics to recreate the Nifong Schnozz with that weird bump in it.
    Yeah, the Fungus just won't buy a bigger belt to ease his gut. I guess he doesn't want to buy bigger duckheads either. Too cheap probably. Better to suck it in and hop around like a duck with a case of the roids.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:22:47 PM EST
    Sharon In Jax posted:
    Back to my reading: Still trying to picture the actor who should play Nifong. Laroquette is good, but he'd have to hitch his pants up a few notches and add some padding. Plus there's have to be some prosthetics to recreate the Nifong Schnozz with that weird bump in it.
    Speaking of noses, I was thinking Pinocchio could play Bill Thomas:
    Durham attorney Bill Thomas said some of the photographs, taken when she arrived at the house, indicate the woman was injured before getting to the party March 13. They show extensive bruises and scrapes on her legs, especially around the knees, he said.
    ...but who does that leave to play Cheshire?:
    The photographs show the accuser has bruises and cuts on her arms, legs and feet," Cheshire said. "These are visible at the very start of the dance.
    ...after which all but a cut on one knee and one foot, they disappeared....

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:37:46 PM EST
    Re whether or not the SANE report included photos:
    fahrenam posted: Oh, and photos are not taken during a rape kit. The physician or nurse has diagrams of the genitalia and the body and they draw on the diagrams where they see injuries. I don't know why that's the case, but that's how it's done.
    Then imho posted:
    Every S.A.N.E. protocol I have come across includes detailed intructions on taking photographs. Nongenital injury (snip) evidence.
    So there might be pictures of her "nongenital injuries" but not the genital ones, just as fahrenam described, only diagrams with injuries indicated.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Lora on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:58:04 PM EST
    fahrenam, Here's the link for the ESPN article (source's comments in second column, gray box, part way down). Newport, Thanks for the repost. I say Nifong, Himan, et. al. were not lying about what they say. I say the defense photos' showed at least some cuts and bruises. They were not all artifacts. We really do not know if the rest of the medical reports contain anything to substantiate the AV', Himan's, Nifong's, the ESPN source's, and her family's descriptions of her injuries. And I do think the head nurse was discussing the AV. You don't go to the press stating that an alleged victim's story is consistent with her injuries if you have good information that in this highly publicized case there were no injuries to speak of. That would be misleading and unprofessional. And if you're talking about exams and such that happened where you're in charge, you'd better know what's in those reports. Somewhat Chunky (and cpinva), Are you sure the defense can't release the medical reports? Can they not describe them? Why then the description of the SANE trainee's report? If it was a mistake, did they get in trouble for it? Do you have a source that says they can't talk about them? re: timeline. The player's timeline and the cabbie match. Bissey's times are full of holes. His Time of Arrival doesn't match with the first set of photos (unless Kim is a Superman speed-changer). Bissey's time of everyone being outside at the end was wrong. He said 1 AM in an interview I believe; the defense affidavit had 12:50, maybe? Still too late. The 911 call was 12:53 and they had driven away by then. So that's why I also don't trust/believe his 12:20 - 12:30 for the intermission. I think he's at least 20 minutes fast all along. And quoting "midnight" on his cell phone is just a little strange if he was going to be precise. I don't think those letters appeared. Was it 11:57? 12:00? 12:03? I don't think he really knows what time it was. The paid sex is of course speculation. Come on, now. Are you going to tell me paid sex doesn't happen at stripper parties with an all-male audience? Can you concede it was possible? Short of the denials by the defense, the hedging and changing of Kim's story, the negotiations that occurred at the car window, the AV's story, and Bissey's observations that no one was left out after the first time they went to the car (so they both returned to the house), do tend to support such an event. I made it up, but it fits as a possiblilty. That would be something no one would want to admit. As far as the protesting of the AV, it's human nature to present yourself in as best light as possible. If the AV was raped, she's going to present herself as resisting to the utmost, and being afraid and demonstratively unwilling, even if she was more passive in actuality. Kim will try to present herself as the one who wanted to leave and the one who was concerned about the safety and whereabouts of the AV, even if she was out for the money and didn't really think or care whether the AV was in danger. Her first version was, It's a crock, she was just drunk, nothing happened etc. Then if a rape could have happened, why didn't Kim do something? She had to look good. I know I'm speculating, all right? There were two cameras, according to some articles. I didn't make that up. I dont know which pictures came from which camera; that I speculated about. I didn't make up that the defense experts couldn't vouch for the times, either. I read that, too. I'll hunt for the links if/when I get time. As far as the misunderstandings, that makes a lot more sense to me than wildly different versions. That makes no sense, rape or invented rape. So yeah, I think a lot of things. And I was up front about the "facts" I questioned. And yes I think this case will make it less likely for rape victims to come forward.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 12:59:59 PM EST
    Still trying to picture the actor who should play Nifong.
    I know! I know! Will Farrell. What do you think?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:00:49 PM EST
    Bob - that's an interesting hypothesis you have for Nifungus. In early June, I was wondering the same thing, limited mostly to the photo lineup. It does, however, imply a very unorthodox strategic move on his part as well as an enourmous level of evil within. I'm not sure which I would prefer - this potential scenario of evil planning with no intent to cause lasting individual harm, or Newport's or Sharon's thoughts that he is a clumsy buffoon or a benevolent despot. Any of the options should terrify anyone interested in fairness and justice.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:03:21 PM EST
    I like it, mik, I do. My first reaction was, "no, he's strictly a comedic actor," but upon further reflection . . . it works, since Nifong has made a joke of the judicial process.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:05:59 PM EST
    Lora - what good would it do in the arena of public opinion for the defense to describe the medical reports? Av supporters would dismiss it offhand as defense spin. Wholeheartedly agree with you that Kim has been hedging to paint a better picture of herself. For instance, in the VF article, she went way out of her way to say to the cops that the AV should be respected. That was a very odd addition to her first report.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:09:09 PM EST
    If black collegiate athletes today were indicted on rape charges on grounds as flimsy as those facing the white Duke lacrosse players, the civil rights community - aided and abetted by the national media - would by now have turned the case into a litmus test of racial equity. The men would have been likened to the Scottsboro boys of Depression-era Alabama; to Emmet Till, who whistled at a white woman in Mississippi and paid for it with his life; or to Schwerner, Goodman and Chaney, who became martyrs of the civil rights movement, also in Mississippi.
    Prisoners of a False Paradigm

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:14:24 PM EST
    Can't remember which TH it was, but he wondered what would happen if the defense subpoenaed the Nifong campaign's electronic records to see if the effect the lax case would have on the race, with different scenarios, was discussed by the Nifongites. Maybe the woman who jumped from Nifong's campaign to the opposition could provide some info.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Sunny on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:16:35 PM EST
    What about James Woods as Nifong?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:16:50 PM EST
    Lora: not sure how reliable the ESPN source is, as they have never had any follow-up about it. And she was wearing a "red nightgown" when she arrived? Hardly sounds like standard issue from the Durham Access Center, nor does it sound like her dance outfit.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:26:14 PM EST
    Re: The photo IDs. This won't be a wildly popular opinion, but I rather think that the photo ID session has a strong chance of being admitted into evidence. Re-reading the introductory parts of the transcript, it seemed to me as though the whole thing was orchestrated the way it was (against recommended protocol) deliberately, but with a deliberate CYA slant to it. I think that the argument for inclusion will be along the lines of "in the course of proper case investigation, as we tried only to determine who was at the party (ergo, no need for 'proper' lineups, as we weren't determining criminal activity). The AV then organically identified her attackers." In some weird way, I'm sure it'll be parallelled to a detective walking w/a victim through a crowd, trying to re-create her steps and she spontaneously says "look at the man over there, he raped me!" Yeah, it's a slick way to dance around the issue, and it'll take some semantics games (and a sympathetic judge) to make it fly. But this reading of events takes the burden off of the 'Fong so he can say "Who, me? I just wanted help with the guest list!" So he's not a crap investigator or a crap lawyer (in this scenario), she's just a crap remember-er.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:48:21 PM EST
    Lora posted:
    Are you sure the defense can't release the medical reports? Can they not describe them? Why then the description of the SANE trainee's report? If it was a mistake, did they get in trouble for it? Do you have a source that says they can't talk about them?
    They have released them - to a reporter. Dan Abrams claims he has read them. He has not related if there are photos included.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 01:50:58 PM EST
    thinkandtype posted:
    I think that the argument for inclusion will be along the lines of "in the course of proper case investigation, as we tried only to determine who was at the party (ergo, no need for 'proper' lineups, as we weren't determining criminal activity). The AV then organically identified her attackers."
    Yep. Just an investigation tool - indentify witnesses to be questioned.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:03:35 PM EST
    SharonInJax posted:
    And she was wearing a "red nightgown" when she arrived?
    Brian Taylor article:
    "She asked my opinion," he said. "The first one was this black outfit, and I said, 'No.' When she came out in the red one I said, 'That's better.'
    April 24th Newsweek article:
    She's wearing only her scant red-and-white outfit and one shoe.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by cpinva on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:12:04 PM EST
    And yes I think this case will make it less likely for rape victims to come forward.
    it shouldn't have any such effect. so far, the person who's really being villified is nifong. the AV hasn't been, except in the abstract. most people don't even know her name. pity the accused can't say the same. should this turn out to be a false charge, why should it result in reluctance, on the part of real victims of rape, to report it?
    In some weird way, I'm sure it'll be parallelled to a detective walking w/a victim through a crowd, trying to re-create her steps and she spontaneously says "look at the man over there, he raped me!"
    except, it won't. they only used pics of those at the party, she wasn't walking through a crime scene, she was trying to pick out her alleged attackers. this would be the only legitimate reason to have her review them in the first place, since the police already pretty much knew who was at the party. they had no need of her to try and confirm it. allowing the photo "id's" in as evidence would, i think, result in reversable error on the part of the judge. take that out, and there's no there there (with apologies to gertrude stein) in this case. btw, anyone know what the vegas line is on this case actually going to trial?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:22:00 PM EST
    Sorry, imho, but I'm not giving an "eyewitness" a whole lot of points for getting one out of two colors right. Maybe "nightgown" must be given unusual definition to make it fit what the AV was wearing, just as "mustache" needs creative definition to make it describe anything close to what Evans looked like that night.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:29:29 PM EST
    Even if the ID's were obtained "by accident" while trying to figure out who was at the party, they could be found inadmissable in court. Proper procedure has to be followed and if the judge feels it wasn't in this case, the identifications will not be allowed.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:40:06 PM EST
    So, having read the ESPN "source" report, I'm very skeptical of this person. I strongly believe that this was not a doctor or a nurse, because there are extremely strict federal laws (HIPAA) that prevent medical personnel from discussing a patient with ANYONE--even the DA. This is why it took awhile for the DA's office to get those reports. I suspect this person was either the desk clerk in the ER or another patient and did not actually examine the patient themselves but overheard some conversations secondhand. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the report--particularly since the medical report itself seems to refute this "witness."

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:41:41 PM EST
    Lora,
    You don't go to the press stating that an alleged victim's story is consistent with her injuries if you have good information that in this highly publicized case there were no injuries to speak of.
    An ethical and honest DA wouldn't. As you know, many feel Nifong posses neither quality - at least in this case. He may have been motivated by reasons external to this case. I think he either lied or purposedly avoided the truth numerous times. Please attempt to give me one good reason why he wouldn't even meet with the defense to hear what they had to say about alibis. Just one reason.
    That would be misleading and unprofessional.
    No kidding. You think nobody has pointed that out?
    Are you sure the defense can't release the medical reports? Can they not describe them?
    This is from the NYT. You can go find the motion.
    The filing by defense lawyers on Thursday also quoted details from the medical examination of the woman by doctors and a sexual assault specialist. Twenty-three pages of medical records were attached in a sealed envelope.
    I think they are not sure. There are laws dealing with this. They asked the court for permission to do so. It would be difficult to do so now without the court's persmission.
    The paid sex is of course speculation.
    Yes it is. Wild speculation. It is also the cornerstone of your story. It has no basis in fact.
    Come on, now. Are you going to tell me paid sex doesn't happen at stripper parties with an all-male audience? Can you concede it was possible?
    Of course not. Anything's possible.
    Short of the denials by the defense, the hedging and changing of Kim's story, the negotiations that occurred at the car window, the AV's story, and Bissey's observations that no one was left out after the first time they went to the car (so they both returned to the house), do tend to support such an event.
    That is ridiculous. Though they may not be mutually exclusive, they do not support such an event at all. That is pure speculation. I'd call it fantasy.
    As far as the misunderstandings, that makes a lot more sense to me than wildly different versions. That makes no sense, rape or invented rape.
    I disagree. It makes perfect sense. Ever been around a person under the influence of something? Or just someone who lies? Or a person who continually makes up stories to get out of things? The world is full of wierdos. People tell different stories all the time. Cops see this all the time and develop a good "BS" detector. This probably while the cops tended to discount her at first.
    So yeah, I think a lot of things. And I was up front about the "facts" I questioned.
    Yes you were. It was a "nice try." And it is a story based almsot entirely on speculation. Not just one thing but a series of "guesses" on your part, all of which have to compound to make your story possible. You can state what you assumed, but let's call it what it is and move on. After a point, you cannot really debate a fictional story. The author holds all the cards. My point: Prosecutors should not try cases based upon speculation.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:42:41 PM EST
    The lineup as an investigative tool is not persuasive. The police officer asked follow-up questions to determine who the alleged perpetrators were and what they did. It was a lineup and no amount of quibbling is going to change that fact.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:43:25 PM EST
    Sorry, imho, but I'm not giving an "eyewitness" a whole lot of points for getting one out of two colors right. Maybe "nightgown" must be given unusual definition to make it fit what the AV was wearing, just as "mustache" needs creative definition to make it describe anything close to what Evans looked like that night.
    Brian Taylor, who got a real good look at it described it as red. I don't see how you can fault the espn witness for doing the same.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:55:54 PM EST
    Are you sure the defense can't release the medical reports? Can they not describe them? Why then the description of the SANE trainee's report? If it was a mistake, did they get in trouble for it? Do you have a source that says they can't talk about them?
    Lora, I provided a source for you but you don't like to listen to things that you don't want to here and you keep at it after things have been explained. THE MOTION TO RELEASE THE MEDICAL FILE BY THE N&O WAS DENIED. I assume the motion by the defense was denied as well. The defense wants the medical report out. Please look it up. It really is ridiculous that the defense would quote from the medical report in their motion papers but not file the motion under seal if they felt the need to file the medical report under seal. That makes no sense, but that is what they did.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:56:39 PM EST
    SomewhatChunky posted about the defense releasing the hospital records:
    I think they are not sure. There are laws dealing with this. They asked the court for permission to do so. It would be difficult to do so now without the court's persmission.
    They have released them - to a REPORTER! Dan Abrams is not a member of the defense team he is a reporter.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 02:59:59 PM EST
    Newport posted:
    THE MOTION TO RELEASE THE MEDICAL FILE BY THE N&O WAS DENIED. I assume the motion by the defense was denied as well. The defense wants the medical report out. Please look it up. It really is ridiculous that the defense would quote from the medical report in their motion papers but not file the motion under seal if they felt the need to file the medical report under seal. That makes no sense, but that is what they did.
    Do you think Dan Abrams is lying? He says he has read it. The defense team released it to him. They can release it to the N & O also. They are choosing not to. Why?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:01:59 PM EST
    lora wrote,
    Come on, now. Are you going to tell me paid sex doesn't happen at stripper parties with an all-male audience?
    Tell that to imho, she doesn't think sex happens at one on ones at 5:30 am in hotel rooms. Just games of chance and intellectual conversation.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:04:52 PM EST
    They did not release the medical report to Abram's. They let him read it. Probably wasn't a good idea if they have a pending motion to release the medical report because they are worried about violating some privacy law. I agree with you that this whole thing has been badly mishandled by the defense. They could and should allow the N&O to review the file if they let Abram's do it.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:05:48 PM EST
    Tell that to imho, she doesn't think sex happens at one on ones at 5:30 am in hotel rooms. Just games of chance and intellectual conversation.
    I didn't say that. I said (all together now): WE DON'T KNOW.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:12:10 PM EST
    IMHO posted:
    They have released them - to a REPORTER!
    Do you think Dan Abrams is lying?
    No. Do you? What about his comments that this is a really weak case? Not quite (and IMHO knows this). They let Abrams look at the discovery. He does not have it.
    They can release it to the N & O also. They are choosing not to. Why?
    Who knows. Who cares. Another IMHO diversionary question. The answer doesn't change the facts of the case. Maybe they wanted national coverage. Maybe they wanted to be on TV. Maybe they like Abrams. Maybe they didn't want to deal with a rinky-dink local paper with low quality reporting.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:13:09 PM EST
    A bigger question which no one dare broach is why would anyone on the Duke LAX team want to rape this woman. What would be the motivation when if they were that interested in sex with her (which I most seriously doubt) they could have just paid for it. She would have been down for anything that, after all, is her profession. She was obsessed with "making more money." The whole thing stinks to high heaven and it has stunk since day one.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:14:08 PM EST
    Newport posted:
    They did not release the medical report to Abram's. They let him read it. Probably wasn't a good idea if they have a pending motion to release the medical report because they are worried about violating some privacy law. I agree with you that this whole thing has been badly mishandled by the defense. They could and should allow the N&O to review the file if they let Abram's do it.
    Someone does not have to walk off with a document for it to be released to them. We are talking about information not paper. It was released to him. He could have copied it verbatim if he wanted to. Other than quibbling over that point, yours was a very civilized post, Newport. Happy 4th of July to you.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:15:45 PM EST
    Newport,
    They could and should allow the N&O to review the file if they let Abram's do it.
    Why do you think that? I though the N&O did a hatchet job on the players in the first few days of the case. They seemed to have more unbiased lately, but why should the defense release what they have to any news organization that wants it? I accept the fact that the defense spins things. They should do what is best for their clients.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:16:23 PM EST
    Who knows. Who cares. Another IMHO diversionary question. The answer doesn't change the facts of the case. Maybe they wanted national coverage. Maybe they wanted to be on TV. Maybe they like Abrams. Maybe they didn't want to deal with a rinky-dink local paper with low quality reporting.
    Maybe they know they could count on Dan.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 04, 2006 at 03:16:36 PM EST
    When you are right, which is not often, I will agree with you. I am not afraid to be wrong or to give credit to others when due. You should adopt this strategy.