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Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Federally Protected Information

Update: I'm told there may be an exeption in the federal statute for grand jury subpoenas. Which might just leave the issues of whether Nifong should have obtained prior court approval for the subpoena and whether he needed individualized suspicion for each player whose records he subpoenaed.

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Original Post:

It seems DA Mike Nifong has stepped in it again. Lawyers for 33 unindicted players Monday filed a motion to quash subpoenas he issued without a court order that requests home addresses and other personal information protected by federal privacy laws.

And back to the last Defense motion(pdf) to throw out the Court's initial order compelling the 46 players to provide photographs and other non-testimonial evidence, and evidence derived from them, such as the later photo identifications, I received a request to weigh in on the motion, and in particular, commenters nit-picking over phraseology, so here's my reaction.

I have no problem with the defense motion. It's a motion to suppress evidence obtained from the court's order directing the 46 players to come in for photographs and DNA testing (non-testimonial evidence). The order was issued on the motion of the prosecutor supported by an affidavit of the police officer.

It was the prosecutors job, through the affidavit, to establish probable cause that a rape had been committed. Only upon a showing of probable cause would the court order the players to come in for testing and photographs.

The defense alleges that the officer who wrote the affidavit (the Affiant) failed to apprise the court of information which might have defeated the probable cause showing. They argue that had the judge been aware of the "material omissions" he might not have found probable cause a rape occurred and thus not issued the order. Had the order not been issued, there would have been no photographs of them to show to the accuser during a lineup. And no identification from the photographs. They are asking that everything obtained directly or indirectly from the order be ruled inadmissible and be destroyed.

In a sentence, their argument is: if one considers the allegations in the cop's fffidavit together with information he was aware of but failed to tell the court about (contained in the exhibits), there is no probable cause showing.

Among the omissions were the officer's failure to tell the Judge that days after the party Kim told the officer the rape allegations were a crock; that the accuser first alleged, then denied, then re-alleged she was raped; even when she alleged she was raped she denied the use of foreign objects, and a*nal rape and condoms; that the rape examination did not find evidence of a sexual assault, only of v*ginal edema (swelling) and she had engaged in intercourse with at least one other man that weekend, in mas*t*bation with a sex toy while dancing for a couple, and had two other escort appointments with men that weekend, one of which took place in a hotel room. Any of those could have accounted for the swelling; that the rape examiner was a trainee; and Kim's written and oral statements of which the officer was aware that contained a version of events that made it highly unlikely, if even possible, that a rape by three men occurred in the short time period they were apart that night.

The motion goes between direct quotes from the statements, one of which is a summary, and paraphrasing and interpreting them. Because all the statments are attached, there is no attempt at deception. They are put right out there for the Court to see.

So hold your bar complaints, the defense has done nothing wrong. They have once again demonstrated the gaping holes in the prosecution's case. Those rooting for the prosecution may disagree with their interpretation, but considering all of the statements and reports together, I don't see a problem. I certainly think it's a fair statement to say that she was "involved in some sexual manner" with four other men.

I agree with Newport pretty much -- a fair reading of Jarriel's statement indicates Jarriel was her pimp not just her driver. The part of his statement where he relays waiting outside for her while she's on a "date", and then she comes out and asks him to stay another hour, and then another and he keeps saying ok and stays in the car by himself all those hours...use your common sense--he was making money off of what she was doing and every extra hour meant more money. Jarriel wasn't running a limo service which charges by the hour -- not if he was having sex with her too. And that little spat where she wouldn't get back in the car and he had to keep going after her and make her get in the car....it was like a scene right out of the movie Hustle & Flow, maybe Terrence Howard can play Jarriel in the movie.

I was also struck by the continual references in Kim's statement as to how obsessed the accuser was with getting more money out of the guys...and how Jarriel would drive her to her parents house in between "appointments" -- how could they not know what she was up to?

This case is a train wreck waiting to happen. The saddest part is that even if the three players are vindicated in a criminal court, their reputations will still be sullied because of the racial taunts, which people will attribute to them if it turns out other players made them...and because of people who think that college kids drinking, partying and calling an escort service for a stripper are morally deficient in some way.

On a tangential matter, bandwidth is expensive. There are hundreds of comments a day on this case. It wouldn't hurt for a few of you more loquacious commenters to throw a few bucks in the tip jar from time to time. And, it would be sincerely appreciated.

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    What federal privacy laws?

    Lora, (This relates to the discussion at the end of the prior thread.) I encourage you to keep commenting, and not become discouraged. Your comments and analysis are appreciated, and your support of the opposing position is important for the ongoing discussion. (That being said, I am of the view the assault did not occur.) This is a nice site, and the discussion of the case is the best I've found. I have been following the discussion here for over a month, and want to thank all of you for the excellent information and analysis. Like many of you, I am fascinated by the case, like being able to follow the prosecution and defense of a very interesting case in almost real-time, and enjoy being able to read all the articles and court papers linked here, as well as the related analyis on the site. Now that I've figured out how to sign up (this being my first blog, it took me 10 minutes to find the link to get to the sign up), hopefully I'll also find a way to contribute something.

    Lora said:
    Painful and damaging as a false allegation of rape is, actual rape is far more painful and damaging.
    I believe this is backward. A successful (ie one resulting in conviction and imprisonment) false allegation of rape is typically more damaging than an actual rape. Fortunately most false accusations of rape are unsuccessful.

    Talkleft said:
    By the way, is Lora the only one here arguing a rape may have occurred? It seems that way to me and maybe you all are giving too much attention to her arguments.
    Not that I want to defend Lora or anything but of course a rape may have occurred. I would say the chance that the AV's story is substantially correct is less than 1% but it is not zero. I support the death penalty although there is never 100% certainty of guilt so the occasional execution of an innocent is likely. Similarly in cases like this I would support declaring the accusation unfounded although this would likely result in the occasional raped woman being further hurt by being labeled a liar. I think it is dishonest for supporters of the death penalty or of declaring improbable rape accusations unfounded to argue that there is no chance of error. That said, the real issue is whether Nifong has a case worth bringing. It appears to me that it is nowhere close and thus should not have been brought.

    Lora, The average jail time you give for a rape conviction seems low. Average incarceration for rape is one year? I don't buy it. Most states criminal statutes provide for at least ten years. What do the defendants face in this case? I heard something like 15 plus. Sorry for picking on you, I'm sure you want justice to do done.

    The sentence for false accusations should be the same as the sentence for rape.

    Talk Left posted:
    and she had engaged in intercourse with at least one other man that weekend, in mas*t*bation with a sex toy while dancing for a couple, and had two other escort appointments with men that weekend, one of which took place in a hotel room. Any of those could have accounted for the swelling;
    With whom did she have sexual intercourse that weekend? That claim is not supported by any of the attached documents. She had a meeting with the "older gentleman" and one with the couple. We don't know if there were men or sex toys, or neither, involved in any other appointments she had that weekend. Talk Left posted:
    The motion goes between direct quotes from the statements, one of which is a summary, and paraphrasing and interpreting them. Because all the statments are attached, there is no attempt at deception. They are put right out there for the Court to see.
    Talk Left posted:
    IMHO, they did reference his summary as well as her written statement and they attached both. You're going nowhere with this argument.
    They can not write that an attached document states one thing when it clearly states the opposite. These are not interpretations. They specifically state two facts are contained in Ms. Pittman's statement that are not in her statement. They do not reference Hinman's summary of Ms. Pittman's statement. They reference her statement which says the opposite of what they assert it says. Are their any rules concerning what they can or can not write in a motion? If so, how can one of them not be that they can not state a fact (not an interpretation of fact) is in an attached statement when it CLEARLY is not - and when the supporting statement CLEARLY states the opposite of what the motion is claiming it states. From the defense motion:
    in this written statement, Ms. Pittman informs the investigators that [redacted] never went back in the house
    Ms. Pitmann makes no such claim in her written statement, the statement to which they are referring. From the defense motion:
    also omitted that once [redeacted] got to Ms. Pittman's automobile, she stayed there
    Ms. Pittman's handwritten statement, the statement to which they are referring, says the accuser did not stay in the car. Talk Left posted:
    I certainly think it's a fair statement to say that she was "involved in some sexual manner" with four other men.
    What four men? There is the male/female couple and the "older gentleman." The other appointments could be performances for lesbians. The supporting document, Jarriel's statement, does not mention any men other than the"older gentleman." The "involved in some sexual manner with four other men" claim is not supported by any of the attached documents. Talk Left posted:
    This case is a train wreck waiting to happen. The saddest part is that even if the three players are vindicated in a criminal court, their reputations will still be sullied because of the racial taunts, which people will attribute to them if it turns out other players made them...and because of people who think that college kids drinking, partying and calling an escort service for a stripper are morally deficient in some way.
    It's not about hiring strippers, it's about how they reacted when the stripper party went bad. The whole team's reputation is sullied from the broomstick joke/threat and the racial slurs because the players who made those remarks are cowardly hiding behind the Blue Wall. The code of silence they adopted in protection of one another is what led many people to conclude the players are morally deficient.

    TL, You wrote:
    On a tangential matter, bandwidth is expensive. There are hundreds of comments a day on this case. It wouldn't hurt for a few of you more loquacious commenters to throw a few bucks in the tip jar from time to time. And, it would be sincerely appreciated.
    Oh, sorry. I thought this was ad-supported. Please remove all my posts if you would, and let me know what I owe you. I'm no welcher.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#9)
    by wumhenry on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 04:35:51 AM EST
    inmyhumbleopinion wrote:
    With whom did she have sexual intercourse that weekend? That claim is not supported by any of the attached documents.
    "After eating we get into bed and watch TV. While watching TV we engage in sexual intercourse." -from handwritten statement of Jarriel Lanier Johnson dated 4/6/2006

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#10)
    by wumhenry on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 04:36:59 AM EST
    ... describing events that occurred on the night of March 11, 2006.

    wumhenry, On the last page of Jarriel Johnson's statement:
    looking at my datebook on my cell phone I realized that the dates that I engaged in sexual intercourse with [redacted] was off by a week. Our last encounter together was the Sunday prior.
    That would have been 8 days before the Duke lacrosse team party.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#12)
    by weezie on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 05:04:32 AM EST
    Thank you TL for the weigh in. I'm sendng you a contribution today. imho, you must be a fun person to party with. Whew, you do hang in there. Does anybody else keep datebooks with memories of their sexual assignations? Is Jarriel Johnson our 21st century's answer to St. Simon at the court of Louis XIV?

    In today's Raleigh News and Observer, former House Ethics Committee chairman and current Duke Law professor James Coleman, a liberal African-American, publicly calls for Nifong to be removed from the case; and strongly attacks the violation of normal state procedures that we've seen from Nifong's office. Here's the link.

    Bill posted
    What federal privacy laws?
    The federal privacy laws relate to student records. The Buckley amendment of 1974 places extraordinary privacy restrictions on all college student records.

    weezie posted:
    imho, you must be a fun person to party with.
    I am.
    Whew, you do hang in there.
    I do.
    Does anybody else keep datebooks with memories of their sexual assignations?
    I do. Mine has more entries than I've made at TalkLeft. ;)

    Duke prof: Rape case needs new prosecutor
    James Coleman, the Duke law professor who led the university's investigation of the lacrosse program, says evidence presented by defense lawyers has made him question whether District Attorney Mike Nifong is too personally invested in the case.
    ...
    Coleman said he's followed the case closely in the newspapers but hasn't spoken with any of the lawyers involved.
    hahaha Here's someone to fill Dan Abram's shoes.

    Maybe when they said the AV had sexual relations with at least one man that weekend, maybe they were referring to the "boyfriend's" semen still in her.

    Here's someone to fill Dan Abram's shoes.
    Yeah, he's just another hack.

    From James E. Coleman, Jr.'s CV:
    1987 NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund Pro Bono Award for contribution to enforcement of civil rights laws.
    Chief Counsel, United States House of Representatives Committee on Standards of Official Conduct
    Yeah, he's just pulling for the Dukies because he works there.

    Immie said: hahaha The only thing that Coleman said that was close to wrong was saying that the appointment of a special prosecutor would not be the end of the case. Once this baby is out of Nifong's hands the charges would very soon be dismissed. The only thing that's keeping this case alive is Nifong's refusal to acknowledge the lack of heartbeat.

    Regarding Jarriel Johnson's records of sexual activities with the AV, I can just see this guy on the stand. I'm sure he'll be told to bring in that little book, too, and will be asked to explain all the various engagements which the AV made in the weeks and months prior to the lacrosse party and how much she was paid and for what services. He will be asked to explain his job and the AV's job, what his cut was, etc. +++ I offered this before, and I'll say it again: I wonder how much animus that the AV may have had against the attendees at the party because they didn't find her sexually appealing. Her sexual activity seems to be closely connected with her money-making abilities, she seems to have wanted to go back to the party to make more money, but reports from Roberts (aka Pitman) seems to indicate that the party-goers just wanted the AV to get out. The AV's motive for a false rape report may have been to avoid being involuntarily locked up, but she may have fingered players for rape precisely because they found the drunken, raving stripper so unappealing. What's the line about a woman scorned?

    Bob:
    I offered this before, and I'll say it again: I wonder how much animus that the AV may have had against the attendees at the party because they didn't find her sexually appealing.
    True, they made convenient scapegoats due to their perceived wealth, position, and power, but I think it's more of a coincidence. The "fellas" (to use Kim Roberts' term) had requested a white stripper, but they agreed to continue when "Precious" showed up. I don't think "Precious" tried to think back through her list of "dates" and "engagements" to find a likely perpetrator, she just chose the last. I think that's why she kept changing her story. At first 20 guys (the same number Kim Roberts estimated were in attendance), then 3 in the bathroom with "Nikki" helping in the assault, then just 3. She had difficulty coming up with a believable story while she was still drunk/hungover from the night before. Besides, if it was racially motivated, why include "Nikki" as one of the perps?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#24)
    by wumhenry on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 07:43:48 AM EST
    IMHO wrote:
    With whom did she have sexual intercourse that weekend? That claim is not supported by any of the attached documents. She had a meeting with the "older gentleman" and one with the couple.
    That wasn't all. Johnson also reports a 30-minute "appointment" at the Holiday Inn Express on the afternoon of March 10th.
    We don't know if there were men or sex toys, or neither, involved in any other appointments she had that weekend.
    Sure, everybody knows about the heavy demand for toyless lesbian outcall service in Durham NC.

    InnocentBystander, how about a little more "legitimate" news source for your story? ABC News version This isn't the same. It's sick and twisted that two adults comply with the directions given to them over the phone by a "police officer" including oral sex. Thank goodness the handyman knew better!

    InnocentBystander, here is what Newport said:
    I can not believe that Reade Selligman, or any other sane individual for the matter, would stick his member in the mouth of a woman who was fighting off three men.
    This is different than the McDonald's case in that the AV was supposedly fighting back. In the McDonald's case, the girl was not. No force was used by either party. This is a baffling case (and a perfect illustration of our willingness to submit to perceived power), but not analogous to the Duke case.

    So I finally figured out that "immie" refers to IMHO ... So, IMHO, please tell me how you determined that I showed "personal animus" towards the AV? Of course, if it wasn't you who said that, then I apologize ...

    Posted by noname June 13, 2006 08:57 AM InnocentBystander, here is what Newport said: I can not believe that Reade Selligman, or any other sane individual for the matter, would stick his member in the mouth of a woman who was fighting off three men. StrawMan........I was not refering to that statement. You switched the argument. Newport said to name one case of oral rape that did not involve a weapon such as a gun or a knife and I did it. People say, "Name one. Just name one." and even if you do they won't admit it.

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    Maybe when they said the AV had sexual relations with at least one man that weekend, maybe they were referring to the "boyfriend's" semen still in her.
    The defense motion does not say that, Talk Left did. I haven't seen any statements that support that claim. imho posted:
    We don't know if there were men or sex toys, or neither, involved in any other appointments she had that weekend.
    wumhenry replied:
    Sure, everybody knows about the heavy demand for toyless lesbian outcall service in Durham NC
    wumhenry, What don't you get about this: It does not matter what you or I or all of Durham thinks the accuser did that weekend. The defense is claiming Investigator Hinman would have discovered "that [redacted] was involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006" from Jarriel Johnson's statement. From the defense motion:
    Had investigator Hinman bothered to interview Jarriel Johnson at the time ( a task the Durham Police Department did not accomplish until April 6, 2006), he would have discovered sooner that [redacted] was involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006.
    Johnson's statement mentions one man. The "older gentleman" the accuser said "wants to see her perform." Investigator Hinman could not possibly discover the accuser did anything with "at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006" from Jarriel's statement. The defense lied about the content of Jarriel's statement.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#30)
    by wumhenry on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 08:54:48 AM EST
    Johnson's statement mentions one man. The "older gentleman" the accuser said "wants to see her perform."
    Investigator Hinman could not possibly discover the accuser did anything with "at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006" from Jarriel's statement. The defense lied about the content of Jarriel's statement.
    It would be more apt to call you a blatherskite than to call them liars for assuming that a prostitute's 30-60 minute "appointments" in hotel rooms involve having sex with men.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#31)
    by wumhenry on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 08:57:18 AM EST
    dammit, I'm doing it over. IMHO wrote:
    Johnson's statement mentions one man. The "older gentleman" the accuser said "wants to see her perform." Investigator Hinman could not possibly discover the accuser did anything with "at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006" from Jarriel's statement. The defense lied about the content of Jarriel's statement.
    It would be more apt to call you a blatherskite than to call them liars for assuming that a prostitute's 30-60 minute "appointments" in hotel rooms involve having sex with men.

    IMHO posted:
    On the last page of Jarriel Johnson's statement: looking at my datebook on my cell phone I realized that the dates that I engaged in sexual intercourse with [redacted] was off by a week. Our last encounter together was the Sunday prior. That would have been 8 days before the Duke lacrosse team party.
    Wasn't he was one of the men that had been one of the dna "donors"? According to the experts, there is no way his sperm would still be there 8 days later..
    DR. MICHAEL HUNTER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, MEDICAL EXAMINER: No, one thing about sperm and in a rape kit, you`re going to have a yield that drops off pretty precipitously say at 12 hours to 24 hours. You are not going to expect to see usable DNA from sperm after, say 72 hours. A week out, I don`t see that that`s going to be possible here.


    wumhenry posted:
    It would be more apt to call you a blatherskite than to call them liars for assuming that a prostitute's 30-60 minute "appointments" in hotel rooms involve having sex with men.
    They didn't say that Investigator Hinman could have assumed blah blah blah.. They said he would have discovered blah blah blah..... No such discovery can be made from Mr. Johnson's statement. The one "appointment" the accuser does describe does not "involve having sex with men." The defense motion adds three more incidents of the accuser being "involved in some sexual manner" with men as being discoverable from Mr. Johnson's statement. They are offering this argument to claim had Investigator Himan interviewed Mr. Johnson before Hinman filed the affidavit, Hinman would have known these encounters with "four men" could have explained the v*ginal swelling. Mr. Johnson's statement mentions one man. He does not mention anyone or anything having contact with the accuser's v*gina. Not even the small (redacted] (sex toy) account is from his statement. Read his statement. What they claim is not there. Plain and simple.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#34)
    by ding7777 on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 09:42:36 AM EST
    to inmyhumbleopinion
    Investigator Hinman could not possibly discover the accuser did anything with "at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006" from Jarriel's statement.
    Hinman was an Investigator; it was his job to determine what exactly the AV did based on Jarriel's statement: 1. Had an appt at Holiday Inn Express 2. Had a job at the Millenium Hotel 3. Was visited by her boyfriend 4. Performed for an older gentelman at a hotel

    ding7777 posted:
    Hinman was an Investigator; it was his job to determine what exactly the AV did based on Jarriel's statement:
    1. Had an appt at Holiday Inn Express 2. Had a job at the Millenium Hotel 3. Was visited by her boyfriend 4. Performed for an older gentelman at a hotel
    I totally agree with you, ding7777, but that is not what I am talking about here. I am talking about what the defense motion claims Investigator Himan would have discovered had he gotten Mr. Johnson's statement sooner (before the affidavit was filed). They reference Mr. Johnson's statement which does not state what the defense claims Investigator Hinman would have discovered. I have typed this so many times. It is simple: what the defense claims Hinman would have discovered sooner is not even in Mr. Johnson's statement.

    Reading Jerriel's statement is remarkably sad to me, particularly this:
    Her daughter lets me in. I sit there and play with her kids while Crystal is getting ready.
    Nothing like having your pimp sitting in your parents' house, playing with your children.

    Very coy, Sharon.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#38)
    by january on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 10:46:26 AM EST
    From IMHO
    The defense is claiming Investigator Hinman would have discovered "that [redacted] was involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006" from Jarriel Johnson's statement.
    No, they're not. From the defense motion:
    Had investigator Hinman bothered to interview Jarriel Johnson at the time ( a task the Durham Police Department did not accomplish until April 6, 2006), he would have discovered sooner that [redacted] was involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006.
    The defense is specifically talking about an interview with Johnson which never took place, not about reading Hinman's statement. And they're absolutely entitled to say what they think he should have found out had he done so.

    january stated:
    The defense is specifically talking about an interview with Johnson which never took place, not about reading Hinman's statement.
    That's true--but given what we've seen from the Durham PD in this case, they would have gone out of their way not to ask him any questions that might have contradicted the accuser's many stories, or Nifong's political needs.

    Sharon, Durga, at what point is [redacted]'s name fair gaime?

    SUO:
    Sharon, Durga, at what point is [redacted]'s name fair gaime?
    At least once in Jarriel Johnson's statement, her name was not redacted.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#42)
    by wumhenry on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 11:11:47 AM EST
    IMHO is focussing on twigs and leaves to distract attention from the forest. It's true that Jarriel didn't say precisely what the AV did in those hotel rooms, but the very fact that she was a prostitute who was chauffeured by a pimp to three appointments in hotel rooms in the two days before the incident at 610 Buchanan Street obviously undermines the probative significance of the SANE nurse's finding.

    Durga: You don't see that as a sad scenario? You don't see that as a true depiction of the scene? sarcastic: I've already gotten in trouble on this board for using the AV's first name, although I still don't see how I damaged or hurt her by doing that, one evening when I was tired of the "AV v. FA" debate. So my answer is: when TL says I can.

    Sharon, I think her point is that you slipped the accuser's name in your post.

    Let's not use her name. While I don't with the policy of naming defendants but not accusers in cases where the issue is whether a rape occurred at all, I also don't think it's appropriate for a law-related blog to be the place her name is bandied about. I'll continue to delete any references to her name.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#46)
    by ding7777 on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 11:21:57 AM EST
    to inmyhumbleopinion Seligmann's lawyers say in the very beginning that what they present are illustrations, but not limitations, of omissions from Hinman. If subsequent investigations show that Precious did have a least 4 s*xual encounters that weekend, then the defense has an obligation to show the court that Investigator Hinman failed to do the interview and follow-ups prior to the probable cause order.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#47)
    by cpinva on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 11:25:13 AM EST
    sarcastic: I've already gotten in trouble on this board for using the AV's first name, although I still don't see how I damaged or hurt her by doing that, one evening when I was tired of the "AV v. FA" debate. So my answer is: when TL says I can.
    you didn't. this coy refusal to name the AV by name is an archaic throwback to the middle ages, when women were considered too delicate to handle anything intellectually strenuous. put bluntly, it's a farce. if it's ok to shout the accused's names to the world, and ruin their reputations without trial, than what's good for the gander is certainly good for the goose. frankly, i'm a bit surprised TL would take that ludicrous position. but, it's her blog.

    january posted:
    The defense is specifically talking about an interview with Johnson which never took place, not about reading Hinman's statement. And they're absolutely entitled to say what they think he should have found out had he done so.
    The interview did take place on April 6, 2006. The defense is saying Hinman's probable cause affidavit is inadequate because had he interviewed Johnson sooner [in time to add the info to the probable cause affidavit] he would have discovered sooner that [redacted] was involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006. They reference Johnson's statement to support their claim: See [the accuser's March 21, statement] and Statement of Jarriel Johnson on April 6, 2006, pp. 17-21 of attached Ehibits. The problem is what they claim Hinman "would have discovered sooner" is not in Johnson's statement. From the defense motion:
    Had investigator Hinman bothered to interview Jarriel Johnson at the time [March 21, when the accuser was at the Durham Police Station accompanied by Johnson, but only the accuser was interviewed] ( a task the Durham Police Department did not accomplish until April 6, 2006), he would have discovered sooner that [redacted] was involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006. See Statement of Investigator Hinman summarizing [redacted] statement to him on March 21, 2006, pp. 16 of the attached Exhibits and Statement of Jarriel Johnson on April 6, 2006, pp. 17-21 of attached Ehibits.


    Oh MAN, I did it again. I really did not notice that. I am sorry, truly, to everyone offended by that. I honestly did not mean to do that. I found a place where I did not have to try to transcribe the handwritten pdf reports, cut and pasted before I realized. I will accept any punishment anyone wants to mete out.

    SharomInJax posted:
    Nothing like having your pimp sitting in your parents' house, playing with your children.
    Kinda like having the senior partner in the law firm chatting up your kids before giving you a ride to the courthouse.

    SharonInJax:
    I will accept any punishment anyone wants to mete out.
    I believe it was unintentional. Talk Left can edit it.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#52)
    by ding7777 on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 11:37:52 AM EST
    SharonInJax fwiw - Google hits say that's not her "real" name

    No biggie Sharon. That aside, you are exactly right. The AV is a truly sad case, and getting sadder and more destructive by the day. I alternate between anger and empathy toward her. Which is one of the main reasons I've taken a chill pill on these threads.

    Inv. Himan's report also states:
    She (Kim Roberts) stated that her practice is to get ID from the person who is in charge of the party. She stated she talked to Dan F. who set up the party. She checked his ID and she stated she thought it was a New York license that was displaced."
    Yet, none of this is in Kim Roberts' written statement. Does this mean it didn't happen? Does this make Inv. Himan a liar? Or does it mean that he has other notes (that may or may not have been turned over to the defense attorneys) with information that is not included specifically in the written statement?

    ding7777:
    fwiw - Google hits say that's not her "real" name
    Then Kirk Osborne is filing motions motions using her alias. All of his motions on behalf of Reade Seligmann are on his website. Her name is not redacted in any of them.

    to inmyhumbleopinion
    Seligmann's lawyers say in the very beginning that what they present are illustrations, but not limitations, of omissions from Hinman.
    If subsequent investigations show that Precious did have a least 4 s*xual encounters that weekend, then the defense has an obligation to show the court that Investigator Hinman failed to do the interview and follow-ups prior to the probable cause order.
    I have no problem with them saying he should have done more and should have known more before the filing the probable cause affidavit. I don't care if they want to write "C'mon only a f*ckin' idiot doesn't know she is a hooker. He should have hunted down these Johns and gotten them to admit they had v*ginal intercourse with her that weekend." The problem is what they are stating Hinman would have discovered from Johnson's untimely interview IS NOT IN JOHNSON'S STATEMENT. They have not shown that anyone or anything other than the "small [redacted] (sex toy)" was near her body. Not to get gross, but do we even know what she said she did with it?

    from the defense motion, via imho,
    Had investigator Hinman bothered to interview Jarriel Johnson. . .
    Didn't the defense motion include language to the effect that supporting evidence for the claims of the motion wasn't limited to ONLY the attached documents? It could be that more accurate interview notes from Himan, separate from his public summary, are part of the larger discovery package, and might be more loquacious on the nature of the relationship between the AV and her driver, and the AV and her clients/dates.

    To clarify, I don't think Johnson's interaction with the investigative staff was limited to writing his statement and walking out, therefore any interview with him, especially if done before the affidavit in question, would have resulted in severe doubts being cast on the "probable cause" necessary for the order for DNA testing/shirtless photography to be granted.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#59)
    by ding7777 on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 11:56:56 AM EST
    mik thanks - ! some google hits say her alias/stage name is her real name and some say just the opposite

    mik posted:
    Yet, none of this is in Kim Roberts' written statement. Does this mean it didn't happen? Does this make Inv. Himan a liar? Or does it mean that he has other notes (that may or may not have been turned over to the defense attorneys) with information that is not included specifically in the written statement?
    If you are talking to me: The problem with the defense motion is not about omitted statements. They are making claims they say are supported by attached documents THAT ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY THE ATTACHED DOCUMENTS. In at least one case, the "supporting document" states the OPPOSITE of what they are claiming it says.

    thinkandtype posted:
    To clarify, I don't think Johnson's interaction with the investigative staff was limited to writing his statement and walking out, therefore any interview with him, especially if done before the affidavit in question, would have resulted in severe doubts being cast on the "probable cause" necessary for the order for DNA testing/shirtless photography to be granted.
    The defense is not claiming the police interviewed him before April 6, 2006.

    imho, I think that's the point. HAD an earlier interview been conducted, it would/could have resulted in evidence that would have cast doubt on the strength of the "probable cause" affidavit.

    IMHO, How many times do you have to make the same point? We all know you think the defense lawyers lied with what they said Himan said. It's a valid viewpoint, but one viewpoint. Repeating it a hundred times doesn't make it any stronger. I think different people interpret the same thing different ways. The defense, along with many others on this board, see it differently than you. I don't think you always have to specifically say somthing to imply it or mean it. If I write "The Sun went down", some one else might say I said "It got dark." Of course I didn't say that! Or did I.... It's a real stretch to claim deception here. Judges are not naive innocents spending their first day in a courtroom. Attaching Himan's statement to the motion lets a judge see it all and decide for themself. That's why we have 'em. I understand most judges can read....

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#64)
    by wumhenry on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 12:21:32 PM EST
    The problem is what they are stating Hinman would have discovered from Johnson's untimely interview IS NOT IN JOHNSON'S STATEMENT. They have not shown that anyone or anything other than the "small [redacted] (sex toy)" was near her body.
    Fer crissakes. What IS (explicitly) in Johnson's statement, without more -- that she was a prostitute and was chauffeured by her pimp to meetings in hotel rooms with three different clients on March 10 and 11 -- would have greatly undermined the apparent significance of the SANE nurse's finding of diffuse vaginal swelling.

    IMHO: I wasn't addressing you specifically. I was attempting to illustrate how silly this discussion has become. To become so wrapped up in the minutiae and not be able to see the larger issues at hand is pedantic at best, duplicitous at worst.

    wumhenry:
    Fer crissakes. What IS (explicitly) in Johnson's statement, without more -- that she was a prostitute and was chauffeured by her pimp to meetings in hotel rooms with three different clients on March 10 and 11 -- would have greatly undermined the apparent significance of the SANE nurse's finding of diffuse vaginal swelling.
    What he said.

    thinkandtype posted;
    imho,
    I think that's the point. HAD an earlier interview been conducted, it would/could have resulted in evidence that would have cast doubt on the strength of the "probable cause" affidavit.
    Yes, that is their point, but the "evidence" they claim Hinman would have discovered sooner had he taken the referenced April 6, 2006, statement from Johnson, sooner is not contained in Johnson's statement.

    Yes, that is their point, but the "evidence" they claim Hinman would have discovered sooner had he taken the referenced April 6, 2006, statement from Johnson, sooner is not contained in Johnson's statement.
    Do they claim that Johnson's statement is the ONLY supporting evidence? The motion says "see. . ." at least two other attached documents. Additionally, there is no claim that these are the only documents to come from the Himan/Johnson interaction, merely the ones attached.

    Fer crissakes. What IS (explicitly) in Johnson's statement, without more -- that she was a prostitute and was chauffeured by her pimp to meetings in hotel rooms with three different clients on March 10 and 11 -- would have greatly undermined the apparent significance of the SANE nurse's finding of diffuse vaginal swelling.
    A statement that what she did with or for these clients could result in "diffuse vaginal swelling" would be useful. Other than her statement about the "small [redacted] (sex toy)" that we don't know was even *eh hem* inserted, we don't know that anyone or thing touched her body on these "dates." Evidence of an act showing possible causation would be nice.

    IMHO wrote:
    Evidence of an act showing possible causation would be nice.
    I think you will get the evidence you seek (without any hearsay problems) when the witnesses take the stand. The FA is going to have to testify about all these appointments leading up to the Duke party. The rape shield laws exclude this type of information.

    thinkandtype posted:
    Do they claim that Johnson's statement is the ONLY supporting evidence? The motion says "see. . ." at least two other attached documents. Additionally, there is no claim that these are the only documents to come from the Himan/Johnson interaction, merely the ones attached.
    The accuser's March 21, 2006 statement and Johnson's April 6, 2006 statement are the two supporting documents referenced. Do you think they have other supporting documents for the claim Himan would have "discovered sooner that [redacted] was involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006?" Since the two documents they did reference as support for this claim do not state what they claim, if they had them, why wouldn't they include the documents that do support their claims? They are trying to persuade a judge here. Judges like the referenced documents to actually support the attorneys' claims.

    Bob wrote,
    I'll say it again: I wonder how much animus that the AV may have had against the attendees at the party because they didn't find her sexually appealing.
    I agree with you Bob, I think the facts will show that they locked her out of the house when she tried to come back in, hence the pictures from the porch when she was looking through the bag and smiling.

    IMHO, You are wasting bandwidth on a ridiculous claim and TL already told you last night that your "argument was going nowhere." I would think that you would respect the host's wishes and move on to something less tiresome and perhaps more pertinent.

    Newport posted:
    I think you will get the evidence you seek (without any hearsay problems) when the witnesses take the stand. The FA is going to have to testify about all these appointments leading up to the Duke party. The rape shield laws exclude this type of information.
    I meant if the defense attorneys could have shown Himan's delayed interview with Mr. Johnson prevented evidence of an act showing possible causation of the v*ginal swelling from being included in the probable cause affidavit, they could have avoided pretending Johnson's statement says what it does not. Judges don't like that.

    I meant if the defense attorneys could have shown Himan's delayed interview with Mr. Johnson prevented evidence of an act showing possible causation of the v*ginal swelling from being included in the probable cause affidavit, they could have avoided pretending Johnson's statement says what it does not. Judges don't like that.
    Huh?? Does this make any sense? Have you been smokin some of those blunts?

    IMHO:
    A statement that what she did with or for these clients could result in "diffuse vaginal swelling" would be useful.
    Yes, but would it be NECESSARY? She was working as an outcall escort. These were her clients. I believe the judge is allowed to infer that she performed her job as one would reasonably expect her to do.

    Newport posted:
    IMHO,
    You are wasting bandwidth on a ridiculous claim and TL already told you last night that your "argument was going nowhere." I would think that you would respect the host's wishes and move on to something less tiresome and perhaps more pertinent.
    I'm not talking to myself: Posted by wumhenry June 13, 2006 08:43 AM IMHO wrote: With whom did she have Posted by wumhenry June 13, 2006 09:54 AM Johnson's statement mentions one man. Posted by wumhenry June 13, 2006 09:57 AM dammit, I'm doing it over. IMHO wrote: Posted by GUNSHY June 13, 2006 10:17 AM IMHO posted: On the last page of Jarriel Johnson' Posted by ding7777 June 13, 2006 10:42 AM to inmyhumbleopinion Investigator Hinman could not possibly Posted by january June 13, 2006 11:46 AM From IMHO The defense is claiming Investigator Posted by wumhenry June 13, 2006 12:11 PM IMHO is focussing on Posted by ding7777 June 13, 2006 12:21 PM to inmyhumbleopinion Seligmann's lawyers say in the Posted by thinkandtype June 13, 2006 12:51 PM from the defense motion, via imho, Had investigator Hinman bothered to Posted by thinkandtype June 13, 2006 12:54 PM To clarify, I don't think Johnson's Posted by thinkandtype June 13, 2006 01:01 PM imho, I think that's the point. HAD an Posted by SomewhatChunky June 13, 2006 01:14 PM IMHO, How many times do you have to make Posted by wumhenry June 13, 2006 01:21 PM The problem is what they are stating Posted by mik June 13, 2006 01:24 PM wumhenry: Fer crissakes. What IS Posted by thinkandtype June 13, 2006 01:34 PM Yes, that is their point, but the Posted by Newport June 13, 2006 01:51 PM IMHO wrote: Posted by Newport June 13, 2006 02:06 PM I meant if the defense attorneys Posted by mik June 13, 2006 02:14 PM IMHO: A statement that

    I knew it!! IMHO has been tokin on the Philly blunts! Woohoo

    Since the two documents they did reference as support for this claim do not state what they claim, if they had them, why wouldn't they include the documents that do support their claims?
    Could they be audio tapes? Could they contain other information the defense isn't quite willing to reveal? Could the omission of the full 1200 pages of discovery attached to one motion be acceptable, given the larger points they're arguing? If we're going to nitpick semantics for the unstated, why not nitpick motions for the possibly-there-but-unattached? It's at least as likely as Mr. Johnson's crossword scenario. TL or a lawyer in the group could likely answer better than I could about protocol for exhibits attached to a motion. For that matter, if legal minds feel like weighing in, could a judge grant the motion if he finds any of their arguments credible? Can he compromise, or is this an all-or-nothing scenario?

    mik posted:
    Yes, but would it be NECESSARY? She was working as an outcall escort. These were her clients. I believe the judge is allowed to infer that she performed her job as one would reasonably expect her to do.
    If the defense attorneys had written "one can infer she is doing things on these dates that could result in v*ginal swelling" that would be true. What they did write:
    Had investigator Hinman bothered to interview Jarriel Johnson at the time [March 21, when the accuser was at the Durham Police Station accompanied by Johnson, but only the accuser was interviewed] ( a task the Durham Police Department did not accomplish until April 6, 2006), he would have discovered sooner that [redacted] was involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006. See Statement of Investigator Hinman summarizing [redacted] statement to him on March 21, 2006, pp. 16 of the attached Exhibits and Statement of Jarriel Johnson on April 6, 2006, pp. 17-21 of attached Ehibits.
    ...is not true. Johnson's statement does not state what the defense claims.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#81)
    by weezie on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 01:36:09 PM EST
    Wait a sec, thinkandtype, "could they be audiotapes," is a good question. Wouldn't the judge already have the 1280 pages of discovery and anything else (including audiotapes)that the prosecution was presenting? I didn't think the judge was the last person to see anything, but what do I know.

    Weezie, the judge does not get provided with discovery. The parties provide the judge with discovery materials that they believe are pertinent to the issue at hand.

    thinkandtype posted:
    Could they be audio tapes? Could they contain other information the defense isn't quite willing to reveal?
    Do you really think the defense would hold back evidence that supports this motion? This motion being decided in their favor would be HUGE. They are trying to prevent the accuser from pointing out Seligmann as her attacker in court:
    2.c. Any proposed in-court indentification of the Defendant in that it would be the fruit of an illegal and unconstitutional search and seizure and the product of, and tainted by, the complaining witness viewing the Defendant's illegally and unconstitutionally obtained photograph;


    IMHO: So the one (and as near as I can tell only) point of contention is that the defense attorneys used the phrase "different men" when they should have said something like "separate engagements" or "jobs" or "appointments" (to use Johnson's phraseology)? Johnson's statement does say that the accuser had three "separate engagements" over the time frame specified. The accuser adds the fourth instance. For her to act in "some sexual manner" with four "appointments" or "jobs" or "engagements" is defined by her job as an outcall escort. I believe the judge is allowed to infer without the defense attorneys telling him he need to do so.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#85)
    by weezie on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 01:52:13 PM EST
    Thank you Newport!

    I believe the judge is allowed to infer without the defense attorneys telling him he need to do so.
    Me too. They shouldn't be saying Johnson said things that he did not say. The other two lies, that concern Ms. Pittman's statement, are much more egregious than this one.

    IMHO, A motion is a request to the court to do something. You can think of it in three parts. 1) The Request, 2) The reason the court should comply, And last 3) Documentation/Fact/Evidence When the judge gets to the second part he knows that he is reading a biased argument meant to persuade. If motions were merely request with evidence the judge could be replaced with a bureaucrat. The judge is suppose to weigh the soundness of the argument. If the argument says something contrary to the evidence then it is a poor argument, not a deception. Having the motion denied because the argument is weak could be compared to a foul in basketball. If you never foul then maybe you aren't playing hard enough. Under the law a defense attorney is not suppose to be nice guy who enlightens the judge, he is there to fight for his client.

    Can we please move beyond the same arguments over and over and over...? It is obvious different posters have differences of opinion, and I don't think that either side will change. While each side may way to keep hammering away, I am personally getting tired of reading the same arguments back and forth. Can we agree to disagree on these specific points, draw a truce, and then see if there is anything else to discuss and learn? Surely I am not the only one who feels this way - am I?

    You're not.

    Thank you, everyone, for letting my "slip" show. I'd blame it on Alberto, but it was simple carelessness on my part. Been a day of that for me, so thanks again for letting it pass.

    Funny thing is, Sharon, I think TL has "slipped" as well - I think she mistakenly missed [redacted]'s name in your comment. I hope no one now claims TL is a lier because she said she'll delete [redacted]'s name if it's mentioned here, but clearly hasn't done so in your case. Although, for some weird reason I kinda like referring to the AV as "[redacted]"...

    imho: I've been enjoying your arguments. Any idea when the motion will be argued? Thanks.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Nifong May Have Subpoenaed Fede (none / 0) (#93)
    by wumhenry on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 02:47:18 PM EST