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Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 09:27:57 AM EST
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The dukesters need a new thread. What's in the news? The Washington Post explores how the players' families are coping.

Feeling abandoned, angry and distraught over their sons' futures, the parents bonded most through the shared conviction that everyone on the team is innocent....Over the months, tensions erupted over legal strategies and fears of which son might be handcuffed next. The less-affluent parents have worried about how to pay legal bills. The wealthy ones swore they would spend every last penny clearing the names of the indicted.

There are also interviews with parents of four of the uncharged players. The article is detailed and I'm so glad to see their side of the story told for once instead of all the attention being focused on the accuser, the inconsistent versions of Dancer #2 and the partying.

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    Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread | 187 comments (187 topical)
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:43:06 AM EST
    Some of Nifong's early statements: March 28th "There won't be any arrests before next week. I have decided not to make arrests until DNA evidence is back," he said. March 29th: "The circumstances of the rape indicated a deep racial motivation for some of the things that were done," Nifong said. March 28th: "I needed to have the information about who will be charged," said District Attorney Mike Nifong said. "I feel pretty confident that a rape occurred." March 30th: Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong said Wednesday that even if DNA results, which are expected as early as next week, do not match team members, no one is necessarily exonerated. The attackers could have used condoms or might not have been team members, Nifong said. "How does DNA exonerate you? It's either a match or there's not a match," Nifong said. " ... If the only thing that we ever have in this case is DNA, then we wouldn't have a case." April 3, 2006 Associated Press "The circumstances of the rape indicated a deep racial motivation for some of the things that were done," Durham district attorney Mike Nifong said. "It makes a crime that is by its nature one of the most offensive and invasive even more so." April 10th: Nifong expressed confidence that the DNA would be important to filing charges. "By next week, we'll know precisely who was involved," he said shortly after the samples were taken. April 13th: "My conviction that a sexual assault actually took place is based on the examination that was done at Duke hospital," Nifong countered Wednesday. April 16th: Defense attorneys said they had offered to show the pictures to District Attorney Mike Nifong, but he declined to see them.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:47:08 AM EST
    noname: that was something of my point. Somewhat joking, but not completely, as it is (to me) a believable alternative scenario.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:50:03 AM EST
    SharonInJax posted:
    Does that mean you think the AV was lying when she told the N&O reporter that the Duke party was her first outcall as a "dancer"? Or when she said her escort duties were "one on one dates"?
    N & O Mar 25, 2006:
    This was the first time she had been hired to dance provocatively for a group, she said.
    Her driver called one of these "one on one dates" with the older gentleman, a performance. The accuser's description of one of theses dates was that it was a performance for a couple that did not involve having sex with anyone. My point is that just because she is dropped off at a hotel for a planned appointment doesn't mean she had sex with anyone. What do the attorneys mean by "involved in some sexual manner with men"? Do they mean getting buck-naked and performing sex on another woman, as Dan Abrams described the photos taken at the Duke lacrosse party? The attorneys are trying to explain the vaginal swelling by citing her multple appointments that weekend. Do they know if she had vaginal sex with anyone that weekend? All I've heard about is the "small [redacted] (sex toy)." SharonInJax posted:
    As to Nifong's involvement in the investigation: I clearly said it was "my take" on the flow of what happened. As to the exact timing of his involvement, I of course do not know. I do know that Nifong was making his public comments about the case by March 23, before an initial investigation had been completed, before DNA results came in. I do know that Nifong directed that the photo lineup be done the way it was. I do know that Nifong was making comments about this being a racially motivated case before he had any proof of that.
    I wasn't asking for an exact date. I was just wondering what you considered too soon. Did Nifong make a public statement on March 23rd? By March 22 Kim had already signed a police statement wherein she said the players called them n*ggers.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:05:57 AM EST
    ok, imho: what about the AV's description of her work as "one on one" dates? She never said she had "danced" for individuals, she said she was on "dates." And even if someone at the party used a racial epithet, does and did Nifong know it was one of the rapists? Not that I've seen. According to the AV's driver, she had sex with him that weekend. There's one. According to the DNA, she had sex recently with her boyfriend. There's two. Say she only "performed" with no penetration on two of the dates. That still makes three and four. And did the report say "small" in describing the vibrator? No.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:07:16 AM EST
    SharonInJax posted:
    And, imho: what's this all about?
    Does Mrs. Evans have two children? I've heard those LPGA ladies can be brutal to each other, but I'm sure, if David stops hiring strippers, that reportedly, performed sex acts on each other while buck-naked, the hardworking Rae will regain the respect of the LPGA ladies' someday.
    Intentionally misreading beenaround's post? beenaround said nothing about any of the accuseds' mothers, why did you twist it that way? Personal animus toward women golfers in general, or just the ones who have sons who are accused of rape? Sometimes your cheap shots toward the players and their families confound me.
    Oh, beenaround's personal animus was directed at that mother of two, not the mother who's son hired the stripper, but the mother who is a stripper. Let me scroll back and see if beenaround was duly chastised for that snarky comment.........still scrolling back.......still scrolling back.......Why am I not confounded that cheap shots at the accuser and her family don't seem to confound you?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by cpinva on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:08:03 AM EST
    given what appears to be the weakest of cases, and the apparent refusal of DA nifong to review potentially exculpatory evidence presented by attys for the accused, i have a question.: should this case not be dismissed (as i think it should be, for lack of evidence.), and the families have to spend even more money than they already have, and a "not guilty" verdict is rendered, do the families have any recourse at all against the DA? remember, mr. nifong is using other people's money to press this case, the families are paying with their own. he has little incentive to drop it at this point, absent the AV coming out in public and saying she lied about the whole thing. were i one of the parents, i would be livid at this point, given the almost complete lack of any evidence of an untoward event occuring that nite. i would definitely believe that mr. nifong is not operating with a good faith belief that an actual crime happened, and i would want my pound of flesh. recognizing that revenge is a dish best served cold, what recourse do i have?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:15:46 AM EST
    Nifong's early involvement (less than 10 days after the incident) was one of the odder aspects of this case. Normally, police conduct an investigation, and then turn over the material to the DA if they believe a crime was committed. Here, Nifong was involved well before the investigation was completed (indeed, if we're to believe the latest subpeona for the keycard records of all 47 players, the investigation still isn't completed), and proclaiming that a crime had in fact occurred. The excuse for this is that the chief of police's mother was ill. But if the chief of police is incapacitated, doesn't the deputy, not the DA, normally assume command of the department? If we've learned nothing else from this case, it's that justice is different in Durham--where prosecutors apparently don't have to follow state ethics guidelines, where the law enforcement can demand DNA samples based on group identities and then ignore the results, where accusers can be given multiple photo IDs of the same people before settling on their choice. Makes me glad I don't live there.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:18:41 AM EST
    What? Defendents have families?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:22:14 AM EST
    imho: what involvement has Dave Evans' mother had in this case, other than standing silently behind her son? What statements to the press? What interviews? She is not an issue in this case, nor has she made herself one, except apparently to you. First the "there, there, mummy will . . ." comment of yours earlier, now this nasty address to Rae Evans. Neither she nor her occupation has anything to do with this case.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:23:30 AM EST
    I'd swear under oath that the Florida DA, Pam Bondi, said something to the effect of the Nifong probably wanting to keep to second dancer from testifying, but that line is not in the June 9 "Abrams Report" video. Could it have been cut at her request?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:37:52 AM EST
    No, the Abrams Report would not cut a line at her request for that reason. Maybe she said it on Hannity? Just because she is a current prosecutor does not mean she has more information or more accurate information than any other pundit. She may get some talking points and the DA's designated media person could be feeding her some information but it is unlikely to be inside, previously unknown information.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:41:14 AM EST
    Adding my "take" on a chronolgy that focuses on just how scary Nifong is: 1. Conflicting statements up the ying yang from the AV: rape no rape, a beating/sexual assault that conflicts with the vaunted SANE report, no condoms, Kim took my money and assisted with the rape, clear evidence of intoxication. 2. Nifong sees internal and unpublished investigative information that casts huge doubts about the story. 3. Cooperative statements/DNA profile from 3 players denying it. 4. Nifong knows of Kim's "crock" statement and "we were only apart for less than 5 minutes" story. 5. Nifong puts his finger to the wind and senses an opportunity to gain political points, doesn't bother to think about the consequences to others. He goes on a magical mystery tour for 70 interviews (plus free repeats on every cable show and news reprint), with appropriate pandering stops along the way. (Duke voters - any outrage left in you (or common sense) to see that you were shamelessly used?) 6. Nifong feels safe because no one else knows the evidence, he does not have to show it to anyone for at least several months, and he believes his spin on this is enough for an indictment with any grand jury. 7. Nifong gets a warrant for 46 players and intentionally does not tell the judge of any of the stinky parts investigators found that may prevent the warrant. Big mistake. 8. He does not want to know any more details that might hurt a serendipitously timed indictment, refuses to see attorneys, consider photos and alibis. Media starts off the first investigations/911 tapes etc., and the public gets the first whiff of the stench to follow. 9. Defense reacts to Nifong, and their statements add to the public doubts. The public does not know that Nifong not only does not have "something," he's got good news for the defense. The media darling senses trouble and goes righteous by ceasing interviews. 10. Reelection. Besides the several other ethics violations already quoted, the damage to people and institutions, I find the manipulation of the electorate to be really reprehensible. Comments? This was a calculated move for his selfish gain. My hope is that every one of the "privileged elitist" b*stards who can afford a $0.4 million bond with attorney fees in that neighborhood, decide to separately sue this SOB, tie him up in an equally costly personal court battle for the next 5 years, and do a Nifong grin as he has to stop spending other people's money. If I was a duped voter, I'd be cheering them on. That ham sandwich Mikey's eating is starting to taste like crow.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:53:50 AM EST
    SharonInJax quoted:
    April 3, 2006 Associated Press "The circumstances of the rape indicated a deep racial motivation for some of the things that were done," Durham district attorney Mike Nifong said. "It makes a crime that is by its nature one of the most offensive and invasive even more so."
    IF it is demonstrated that the accuser fabricated her story, does this go in the opposite direction?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:56:47 AM EST
    Prozac: I heard that too. Bondi was making the point that Nifong might not want to call Kim, but he wouldn't leave it to the defense to call her. Nifong would, in her opinion, have to call Kim, and then have the unfortunate task of impeaching his own witness.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:57:42 AM EST
    Think and Type, You wrote:
    Clarity is everything, especially when making poorly supported generalities. You didn't say "Just because some women at Duke don't consider themselves feminists," you used the term "THE woman (sic)," which is patently ridiculous.
    Well, to my credit, I didn't write "Just because all women at Duke don't consider themselves feminists," I used the term "THE woman (sic}." You wrote:
    But perhaps you really only did mean "some women," in which case, I rather wish you'd said so to begin with, as it would have made your argument much stronger.
    I prefer the word "most" to the word "some", because it captures the results of the small sample upon which I based my callously irresponsible use of the term "the."

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:05:50 PM EST
    Bondi said something like, "Nifong must be asking, 'how can I present my case without putting Kim Pittman/Roberts on the stand?'" It comes right after Abrams' presentation of the latest info in the motion.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:13:55 PM EST
    Thanks, Sharon. It was one of those "Did I really hear that?" things. I found it shocking that the prosecution would try to get around an exculpatory witness, and a vital one at that.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:28:42 PM EST
    Immie, my comment to multiple comments from you and the media about the criminal act of hiring strippers
    Oh, beenaround's personal animus was directed at that mother of two, not the mother who's son hired the stripper This would make mysogenists of a huge population of college students out there. There are countless rush parties (fraternity and sorority recruiting drives) attended by perhaps tens of thousands of students every year. Free beer and strippers! The only people who should criticize this are the ones who in the 60's and 70's never smoked pot once, never played their vinyl Dead music too loudly, never peed outside, never went to bachelor party with strippers. No equation for what the AV has done. Hope this never makes it to trial, but if it does I hope CourtTV airs every bit of it.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:36:56 PM EST
    BTW, guilty on all counts in my previous post, and I would like to add my liberal creds as so many have done before me. My first ever vote was cast for Richard Nixon, still have my never-burned draft card, Reagan was a great man, and I am an avowed capitalist.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:40:22 PM EST
    SharonInJax posted:
    ok, imho: what about the AV's description of her work as "one on one" dates? She never said she had "danced" for individuals, she said she was on "dates."
    Yes, and the only one that has been described by her was her performance for the couple that did not involve having sex with either of them. I am asking what do the attorneys mean by Jarriel Johnson's statement shows she was "involved in some sexual manner" with four different men? Jarriel Johnson say he was in the car. SharonInJax posted:
    And even if someone at the party used a racial epithet, does and did Nifong know it was one of the rapists? Not that I've seen.
    In a Rita Cosby interview, the accuser's father said his daughter told him they were calling her racial slurs while they were assaulting her, which is interesting because when he was trying to keep the NBPP away he said he did not think the crime was racially motivated. SharonInJax posted:
    According to the AV's driver, she had sex with him that weekend. There's one. According to the DNA, she had sex recently with her boyfriend. There's two. Say she only "performed" with no penetration on two of the dates. That still makes three and four.
    Jariell Johnson says he had sex with her over a week before the Duke lacrosee party. The boyfriend's DNA is not proof he had sex with her that weekend - 4 minus 2 leaves 2 left. For the last two, we don't know what she did on those dates. That's minus 2 more. That makes ZERO. SharonInJax posted:
    And did the report say "small" in describing the vibrator? No. Did the report say small? Yes. Did the defense motion say small? No. Thanks for pointing that out, Sharon.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by scribe on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:42:24 PM EST
    I'm inclined to wish that someone had taken these parents aside and told them:
    Welcome to the world of the criminal defendant. Every time you or your friends talk about being tough on crime, or nod your heads approvingly at the police busting up this criminality or that, and every time you figure - "well, if they were arrested, they must have done something" - you're now on the other side of that. That your sons appear to have come from stable home lives and some prosperity, if not affluence, only entitles them to have a more comfortable environment within which to retreat, until they have to go back to this case. And, further, think of the poor schlubs who don't have all the resources you and your sons do, especially when they say they were innocent but pleaded guilty because they couldn't afford a defense, or because no one would stand up for them.
    I recently read an editorial in a legal newspaper which began something like this: "A cynical old professor of criminal law we knew stated regularly that the best way to ensure the core principles of the Fourth Amendment were preserved and respected would be for the police, once a year or so, to go to the house of some middle-class white family iun town about 3:00 in the morning, crash in the front door with (or without) a no-knock warrant, spend the next five or six hours rummaging through everything in the house, take nothing and leave. You'd see how quickly they'd be reined in." Until you've seen a warrant executed, and watched the client's life violated, you don't know. Oh, and I note these parents' fear their emails would be intercepted. I wonder how they felt about the NSA program before this case started. Someone should have asked.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:50:18 PM EST
    imho: which report are you referencing as to the size of the vibrator? And on the potential number of partners: do you have an explanation as to why the DA got exemplars from 3 non-lacrosse players to exclude them if DNA was found? And those were NOT any of her "dates."

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Lora on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:58:30 PM EST
    Noname posted, in response to my post of the previous thread on Kim's written statement which was attached to the defense motion)
    How did the defense spin Kim's statement? Did they forge it? What is your theory here?
    Actually, after rereading the motion, I realize the defense didn't just spin, they flat-out lied, as they have frequently done all during this case. That is why I take absolutely nothing they say for granted, without seeing all of the original documents they refer to, including all medical and police reports/interviews. Defense motion:
    Investigator Himan interviewed Ms. Pittman and obtained a written statement from her. Investigator Himan omitted from his probably cause affidavit that in this written statement, Ms. Pittman informs the investigators that ________ never went back in the house. The affidavit also omitted that once _______ got to Ms. Pittman's automobile, she stayed there;...
    From Kim's written statement, which the defense included in its motion:
    - forgot to mention that the first time Precious came to the car, she left because she felt there was more money to be made.
    Not only did Kim say in her written statement that the AV left her car the first time, Kim never said in this statement that the AV never went back in the house. Never wrote it. Defense lied. In the written statement, Kim never said that the AV stayed in the car once she got there. Never wrote it. Defense lied again - or - (even though it was in the same paragraph about Kim's written statement, technically maybe they could be referring to another statement Kim had made at another time) or defense spins again.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 01:34:42 PM EST
    SharonInJax posted:
    imho: what involvement has Dave Evans' mother had in this case, other than standing silently behind her son? What statements to the press? What interviews? She is not an issue in this case, nor has she made herself one, except apparently to you. First the "there, there, mummy will . . ." comment of yours earlier, now this nasty address to Rae Evans. Neither she nor her occupation has anything to do with this case.
    As I have posted before, the satirical comment, "there, there, Honey. Mummy knows you wouldn't even look at those wicked women," was not directed at any of the indicted players. It was a response to someone posting that if there was an assault one of the 40+ players would have "cracked" by now. The indicted players have been put under pressure. If you thought it was about Rae Evans, you might want to ask yourself why you singled her out from 40+ mothers, because I didn't, the point of my post excluded her. I'd have more respect for Rae Evans if she did speak out like the accuser's father has. He has said that he did not approve of her working for an escort service, but he loves her and believes her. Surely Rae is disappointed in the lack of leadership her son displayed by hosting this party. Rae Evans has chosen to show her support of her son by hiring a lawyer to speak for him. It takes courage to risk appearing undignified.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 01:40:27 PM EST
    Every day I ask here what evidence there is of a gang rape having occurred. No one answers. So is there anyone who even believes a gang rape occurred?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 01:43:05 PM EST
    SharonInJax posted:
    imho: which report are you referencing as to the size of the vibrator?
    Page 16 3/21/06/1810HRS She stated she had a function at hotel room with a couple male and female. She stated she danced for them and used a small [redacted] (sex toy). SharonInJax posted:
    And on the potential number of partners: do you have an explanation as to why the DA got exemplars from 3 non-lacrosse players to exclude them if DNA was found? And those were NOT any of her "dates."
    Because he is aware sperm can show up in a S.A.N.E. exam even if sexual intercouse had not taken place for well over a week?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:12:49 PM EST
    lightenup posted:
    This would make mysogenists of a huge population of college students out there. There are countless rush parties (fraternity and sorority recruiting drives) attended by perhaps tens of thousands of students every year. Free beer and strippers! The only people who should criticize this are the ones who in the 60's and 70's never smoked pot once, never played their vinyl Dead music too loudly, never peed outside, never went to bachelor party with strippers. No equation for what the AV has done.
    lightenup, beenaround seemed to be implying the accuser was not to be respected as a hardworking mother because she worked for an escort service. I was wondering if beenaround thought hiring strippers is any more respectable, but if a "huge population of college students out there" are doing it, hey bring it on. I do recall one Duke lacrosse mother, Tkac's mom, opining that hiring a stripper is just as inappropriate as being a stripper, but you're probably right, Mrs. Tkac may be one of those rare Duke grads that "never peed outside."

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:36:45 PM EST
    Bob, no rape occurred. The only crime committed was by the FA. Nifong must have "something" is a big nothing. Finding it still tedious to see discussions of who lied about the extent of scrapes on the FA, etc. I would rather discuss with realistic people the implications for Nifong, the various cast, the future, etc. Be right back after I pee outside.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:38:34 PM EST
    In Chevy Chase, Sally Fogarty and her husband, parents of Gibbs Fogarty, hunkered down, avoiding social settings where the Duke case was the topic of discussion. "I could not risk hearing my friends express doubt over my son, because I was afraid the friendships would be ruined," Fogarty said.
    Uh, Sally, this is not a time to put your hands over your ears and go "LA LA LA LA LA LA," this is one of life's rare opportunities when your true friends are revealed to you. Maybe Sally's afraid of what she might discover?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:56:04 PM EST
    IMHO posted on June 9, 2006 11:30 PM
    thinkandtype posted: Maybe he just really likes crossword puzzles? The only time I've ever had the patience to finish one has been on long car trips.
    DOWN 1. from sitting in a car nearby, can determine another person in a hotel room is "involved in some sexual manner" with a man.
    Well, technically no, IMHO, the driver sitting in the car cannot actually "determine" that. But it's kind of like saying that the piano player doesn't know what's goin' on upstairs.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by spartan on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:56:09 PM EST
    Sharon, maybe the accuser's idea of a small sex toy is different from those not in the "business. " hehehe.. On another note, last night most of the hard core talking heads that have been in the AV's corner seemed shell shocked with the new evidence. (with the exception of Nancy Grace but who takes her seriously anyway)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:03:35 PM EST
    Lora:
    Defense lied.
    When? You are using two different statements here. The first (not necessarily chronologically) is Kim's interview with Himan. The second is her written statement. Kim simply failed to mention this additional trip to the house during the interview, just as she almost did in her written statement. Please do not accuse the defense of lying just because the witness' story is inconsistent.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:10:29 PM EST
    Thanks for the reference imho. Nice to hear you weren't focusing solely on Rae Evans: you have moved on to Sally Fogarty.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:12:29 PM EST
    I give up for awhile.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:15:34 PM EST
    SLOphoto posted:
    Well, technically no, IMHO, the driver sitting in the car cannot actually "determine" that
    I agree, so it probably wasn't very good supporting evidence that the accuser was "involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006." From the defense motion:
    Had investigator Hinman bothered to interview Jarriel Johnson at the time ( a task the Durham Police Department did not accomplish until April 6, 2006), he would have discovered sooner that [redacted] was involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006.
    Mr. Johnson dosn't know that, so how could the investigators have known that from interviewing him?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:20:13 PM EST
    SharonInJax posted:
    Nice to hear you weren't focusing solely on Rae Evans: you have moved on to Sally Fogarty.
    Fifty-something Sally Fogarty could learn something from 25 year old Kevin Cassese:
    "It's an experience that's brought us a lot closer together," Cassese said. "You find out who your friends are."
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:21:02 PM EST
    Lora claims that the defense lied because they latched on to one version of various Roberts' accounts. But that's precisely what the DA did with the many different versions of reality spewed forth by the AV. How much beer did the AV drink? 24 ounces or 44 ounces? How many flexerils? How much liquor? Nothing? All of it? You can't even get a straight answer out of her on how intoxicated she was before she got to the party. Forget the whole date rape drug hogwash. I find it telling that no one here is willing to say that they think a rape happened. Even the supporters of the AV's various versions of reality are playing in the margins. She's not an icon for the battered, abused minority woman that some have imagined. She's just a very screwed up mentally ill woman who can't tell the truth from lies and who's been working in a field reserved for women who've lived abused lives.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Jo on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:32:31 PM EST
    IMHO says:
    Maybe Sally (Fogarty)'s afraid of what she might discover?
    What is to discover? A highly-regarded DA has expressed that he believes a crime was committed, and has charged her son with the crime. Is anyone surprised that some members of Sally's community might have reason to doubt her son's innocense? Sally did not say that she did not want to learn that some people may doubt her son, she said she does not want to hear it. I do not blame her for that.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by spartan on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:32:31 PM EST
    BIP, Do you think the Rev Jackson will pay for her legal bills if civil/criminal suits are brought against her. I did remember him saying that even if she was not telling the truth he would pay for her education. I guess it will really be the Rainbow coalition paying.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:45:18 PM EST
    Jo posted:
    What is to discover? A highly-regarded DA has expressed that he believes a crime was committed, and has charged her son with the crime. Is anyone surprised that some members of Sally's community might have reason to doubt her son's innocense?
    Sally did not say that she did not want to learn that some people may doubt her son, she said she does not want to hear it. I do not blame her for that.
    She's not talking about "some members of her community." She is talking about her friends. She doesn't want to hear it because the "friendships would be ruined." What a way to live your life. That is pathetic. From the Washington Post article:
    In Chevy Chase, Sally Fogarty and her husband, parents of Gibbs Fogarty, hunkered down, avoiding social settings where the Duke case was the topic of discussion. "I could not risk hearing my friends express doubt over my son, because I was afraid the friendships would be ruined," Fogarty said.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:47:52 PM EST
    PS, Sally Fogarty was on my freshman hall. She was a really nice girl. She also does not deserve your venom.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:53:59 PM EST
    Jo posted:
    A highly-regarded DA has expressed that he believes a crime was committed, and has charged her son with the crime.
    Sally Fogarty's son is Gibbs Fogerty. He has not been charged in this case.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 05:09:41 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica:
    I find it telling that no one here is willing to say that they think a rape happened. Even the supporters of the AV's various versions of reality are playing in the margins.
    It is telling. Hard to imagine that there are still people willing to suspend judgement until the evidence is actually presented for the first time. Ah well. I guess it beats the alternative.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by weezie on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 05:54:26 PM EST
    Ooof, feeling a little queasy with all the scooping and semen talk. Is the boyfriend now saying he was not one of the three beaus that FA had sex with before the party? He's now claiming it was a week earlier, but she said he was in the corral, right? One other point keeps rattling around; in the early days of this bedtime story a reporter from the NCCU paper was quoted in the Wash Post saying that she had interviewed family members of the FA who were disapproving of the FA's behaviour at a family cookout. Sounded like she was a little off the hook last summer. The reporter chose not to publish the story as she did not want to make the FA look bad. Did anyone else catch this? It disappeared in a hurry. And 7Duke4, please don't be upset, lots of time what is typed reads differently from what is meant. All the Dukies I talk to are taking this affair very personally and it hurts, so I understand your reaction. Just focus on Josh McRoberts staying another year and taking an alley oop pass from Gerald Henderson for a thunder dunk. Hey AZBBall, you ready for another shot at Duke? :-)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:02:41 PM EST
    Kalidoggie, What do you think of this?
    Clute said his son told him that he had not witnessed anything at the party, and was so concerned about the allegations that he had gone to the captains to ask whether anything had happened. "The captain looked him the eye and said nothing happened," said Clute, a government contractor.
    We have the players parents, former headmasters, coaches and priests saying they know these boys couldn't have done what was alleged, but here is a teammate that was at the party who had to ASK his captains if anything happened.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by weezie on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:17:22 PM EST
    PB! You are making me laugh. I wouldn't describe the FA as "less-heeled" but rather round-heeled.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by ding7777 on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:18:03 PM EST
    deleted, keep it clean please. There's censor software at work.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:19:37 PM EST
    deleted, please keep it clean and lose the graphic details.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:20:14 PM EST
    I have to go talk to my teenager now (is that bragging?), [insult deleted]

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by ding7777 on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:22:49 PM EST
    Attorneys: At Least Six Photo Lineups Done In Duke Lacrosse Investigation

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by ding7777 on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:25:43 PM EST
    deleted -- lose the graphic details, please.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by weezie on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:40:55 PM EST
    ding- can we get some opinions on those six line-ups? Did they keep shuffling the same lax team member cards till she felt there was no way out of the room except to nail someone, anyone?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:47:34 PM EST
    I haven't contributed as much as the main players here, so you all certainly don't need to take my advice. I am going to give some anyway. When the latest motion came out, PB and the gang all but disappeared until some noted absence and gloated about it. Since they have come back they have done nothing but snipe at other posters and, unbelievably, the players' families. Why do you think this is? Would they be doing this if they had any evidence based argument indicating that these men raped the AV? Of course not. So here is my unsolicited advice: unless they post an argument based on evidence in this case, ignore them.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:06:07 PM EST
    noname, 7duke4 didn't come here to argue the evidence of the case. She came here to dispell the stereotype that Dukies are "racist, spoiled, rich, rude, etc. etc."
    Posted by 7duke4 May 13, 2006 07:46 PM
    I have only recently started viewing this site, so I am new to posting here. Just so you understand my bias, I am a Duke grad, worked for UNC, am a mother of a daughter in college who was an All Star LAX player, and have dear friends from my days at Duke who were on the mens' LAX team.
    My daughter is right now sporting a Duke LAX tshirt for the women's team, who are entering tournament season ranked #1 in the country and whose accomplishments are being sadly neglected. My husband is the webmaster of US Lacrosse. Go on any Duke or lacrosse boards and you will see the anger and hurt - this is causing great, and unjustified, humiliation and damage to a large community.
    This is my school and my sport, and we are being depicted as racist, spoiled, rich, rude, etc, etc. I am having great difficulty with the accuser and have come to believe that Nifong is a buffoon, and is perpetuating these stereotypes. This will take a long time to heal, no matter what happens.
    I never thought any of those things about Dukies until she posted here.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:13:37 PM EST
    weezie: That's one of the problems described in the motion: there were no reports about the earlier, unsuccessul photo arrays included in the discovery that was turned over to the defense. That's the point of this latest motion: the defense needs to know the details of how those lineups were performed, what the AV said, what photos were used, who if anyone was identified by the AV, etc. There was nothing like the detailed report that documented the April lineup, and the AV's identification of Finnerty, Seligman and Evans (sort of). The earlier photo arrays seem to have taken place before the players were photographed bare chested, though. They could have used the lacrosse team page photos, and likely did (since I do not know how else they could come up with photos of all of the players). Were there "fillers" in those lineups? Unlikely, since it would be hard to get pictures of non-lacrosse players wearing Duke men's lacrosse jerseys. The id process, all of it or them, will be a key point, and one that I am looking forward to hearing Nifong address once he decides to file a responsive pleading.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:15:42 PM EST
    Hi noname, You wrote:
    When the latest motion came out, PB and the gang all but disappeared until some noted absence and gloated about it.
    It's a mistake to think there is a cause and effect the this ordering of events. I still haven't been able to make time time to read the new defense motion with any care. You've got to remember we're outnumbered 47 to 1 here,and we aren't even, to be technical about it "Pro-AV," much as everyone would like to imagine to be that. You also wrote:
    Since they have come back they have done nothing but snipe at other posters and, unbelievably, the players' families.
    Imho has posted a great deal of research information since then with an eye toward distinguishing fact from fantasy. Probably more than most posters, and certainly more than you. Am I wrong about that? A certain amount of testiness is to be expected with a hot button case such as this. I agree that we should all make an effort to focus on substance, and avoid the barco-lounger foodfights when possible.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:21:57 PM EST
    Photo lineup made public in Duke lacrosse case
    For the March 21 lineup, Durham police used official photos of the lacrosse players, identical to those posted on GoDuke.com, the official Web site of Duke athletics. The police arranged the photos in groups labeled A through F.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:22:34 PM EST
    Hey, everyone, this thread has deteriorated to the point of being meaningless. Please, please (1) don't snipe at each other and insult each other. Attack their arguments, but not theem personally. Please don't post graphic anatomical and s*xual details here. Law firms use censoring software and those words will get the site banned and having had it happen once, it was a nightmare to straighten out. Please try to just discuss the case. This is a law blog. Feminism, socioeconomic and sports issues are out of place. I appreciate that so many of you come here just for the Duke threads, and aren't that familiar with TalkLeft otherwise. I really do consider it like my living room, and if you wouldn't say it as a guest in my house, you probably shouldn't say it here. I really enjoy both providing this forum on the Duke case and reading your views. Let's keep it high-end and try to avoid the catfights, ok?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:24:39 PM EST
    deleted.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by spartan on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:28:01 PM EST
    IMHO, I know you keep bringing up Clute. Maybe Clute was the guy passed out in the photos. He may not have known if anything happened. Or, he may have just asked ..Did I miss something?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:29:49 PM EST
    Kali, right on
    The discussion among all here should focus on what the hell Nifong was thinking. In line with my post at 12:41 pm
    Adding my "take" on a chronolgy that focuses on just how scary Nifong is: Referencing PB, imho, et al, noname nailed it with
    So here is my unsolicited advice: unless they post an argument based on evidence in this case, ignore them. I stopped reading about 90% of their posts several days ago. People trying to outfeminize each other, or other off topic attacks.... At least Ori was funny. I'd rather hear a comment re weezie's post, or new ideas from Bob, Sharon, or better yet, an attorney reading this on the sidlines to weigh in on Nifong.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:32:49 PM EST
    I now gratefully see TL's post. I was typing off line in a Word document and posted before I saw that. Thanks TL.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by spartan on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:34:58 PM EST
    Does anyone know why the accuser made another trip to the hospital, on I believe the 14th? I thought I read she went to the UNC hospital.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by spartan on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:39:52 PM EST
    Sorry that was the next day the 15th. Why would she have to make another trip to the hospital?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by spartan on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:42:09 PM EST
    TL, I think you scared everyone off. I feel like I'm talking to myself at this point.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by spartan on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:44:49 PM EST
    For the lawyers, if charges are eventually brought against Nifong won't the city pay for his defense?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by spartan on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:46:11 PM EST
    goodnight Spartan.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:50:34 PM EST
    Does anyone know why the accuser made another trip to the hospital, on I believe the 14th? I thought I read she went to the UNC hospital.
    Maybe for a follow-up visit? It's conjecture, but if her primary care physician was through the UNC hospital system (which might be a public hospital) rather than the private Duke University Hospital system, it might have been recommended that she go there. I don't think that someone claiming a traumatic experience would just be released with no kind of continuing care plan, but I could be wrong. Also, given that she was on a prescription medicine (flexeril), she might have had an earlier standing appointment.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:51:42 PM EST
    I would like to apologize to anyone I may have offended with my last post. I am still fed up with all the sniping going on here, but that is no excuse for me to join in.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:53:29 PM EST
    spartan posted:
    I know you keep bringing up Clute
    I brought him up twice. No one wanted to discuss him the first time. I thought about Clute maybe being the passed-out guy. His father did say his son told him that he had not witnessed anything at the party. Do you think the parents are aware of which guy was photographed passed out? If it was Clute wouldn't it be a bit disingenuous of Clute's father to not mention why his son may not have witnessed anything at the party? What if he wasn't the passed out guy and was at the party the whole time the dancers were there? What about him having to ask the captains about the allegations? Wouldn't he have known it couldn't have happened without him seeing or hearing something? Other poster have said if strippers were in the house all attention would be on the strippers. If guys were in the bathroom with the strippers everyone would know it. Why did Clute have to ask if anything happened?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Jo on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:57:10 PM EST
    I said: A highly-regarded DA ... charged her son with the crime. IMHO said:
    Sally Fogarty's son is Gibbs Fogerty. He has not been charged in this case.
    Well, you are correct. My bad. Mental disconnect. Fingers in third gear while my brain was in nuetral. I've never been on an organized sports team, but I also find it a little odd that not one single person has come forward to say the AV was in the bathroom with some players (unless of course, it didn't happen). I don't think it's odd that a player would ask the captains if anything happened. If you were there and didn't see anything like this happen but heard all about it, wouldn't you ask the others if they saw anything?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:57:38 PM EST
    I hope they sue the city, nifong and the AV. Hopefully the AV can emerge from her richly deserved years in prison a bankrupt.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 07:58:07 PM EST
    Immie, I did not read that so literally. I read it like: Hey captain, I know for sure I saw nothing. You confirm nothing happened, right?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:00:00 PM EST
    Re: Clute, He could have been too drunk to remember. I imagine that for any witnesses in this trial, alcohol consumption will be a big factor in determining veracity of memory.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:04:28 PM EST
    I believe I have read that a rape conviction in NC is a minimum 16 year sentence. What is the penalty for a false rape charge? Do they actually prosecute these cases, or are they usually dropped? If prosecuted, how much, if any, jail time is actually served? Come on NC attorneys, I know you are out there.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:05:32 PM EST
    lightenup posted:
    Immie, I did not read that so literally. I read it like: Hey captain, I know for sure I saw nothing. You confirm nothing happened, right?
    lightenie uppity, Re-read it. From the Washington Post article:
    Clute said his son told him that he had not witnessed anything at the party, and was so concerned about the allegations that he had gone to the captains to ask whether anything had happened. "The captain looked him the eye and said nothing happened," said Clute, a government contractor.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:07:04 PM EST
    imho wrote:
    If it was Clute wouldn't it be a bit disingenuous of Clute's father to not mention why his son may not have witnessed anything at the party? What if he wasn't the passed out guy and was at the party the whole time the dancers were there? What about him having to ask the captains about the allegations?
    To begin with, we know that not all the players were at the party for its entire duration--Seligmann, for instance, wasn't even there during almost all the time the rape allegedly occurred, and neither was Robert Wellington, the player who accompanied him in the taxicab. But even if Clute were there until the end of the party, presumably he wasn't watching everyone else. The DA was publicly claiming rape--why wouldn't he ask other people at the party if they had seen anything? This doesn't strike me as mysterious, or in any way surprising. It also seems wholly irrelevant to the issue of why so much of what Nifong promised has turned out to be false, why Nifong seems to think he doesn't need to follow normal procedures, or how Nifong is going to prove a rape occurred when there's basically no evidence apart from one of the accuser's many versions of events to support the claim.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:12:40 PM EST
    thinkandtype posted:
    Re: Clute,
    He could have been too drunk to remember.
    I imagine that for any witnesses in this trial, alcohol consumption will be a big factor in determining veracity of memory
    Yeah, I've been thinking that may be a problem for all those witnesses Cheshire says can account for David Evan's movements the whole evening.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:14:49 PM EST
    I rather think it's going to be an issue for everyone involved in this whole mess. Except, possibly, the cab driver.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:19:17 PM EST
    Clute said his son told him that he had not witnessed anything at the party, and was so concerned about the allegations that he had gone to the captains to ask whether anything had happened. "The captain looked him the eye and said nothing happened," said Clute, a government contractor. I have a very different interpretation of the above than what have been implied by some. Clute says he saw nothing. He was there. So he's pretty sure nothing happened. He's also a college kid and no doubt this whole mess is far bigger than anything he's been involved with in his life. Of course he's concerned, if not scared. So he goes to his captain and asks him if anything happened -- just to make sure. He's probably smart enough to realize that it was possible that something may have happened that he didn't know about - it was a house and there were multiple rooms. I see it as nothing more than that.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:22:18 PM EST
    I wonder if this is more defense lawyer "spin" or actual confirmation that what Duke security overheard was NOT a rumor:
    They said the importance of such records was underscored by an initial report, in the exotic dancer's own words, that she had been "raped by approximately twenty white males." She later amended her story to say there were three assailants.


    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:25:51 PM EST
    IMHO, "1. from sitting in a car nearby, can determine another person in a hotel room is "involved in some sexual manner" with a man." Maybe not. But when I drop a friend of at Starbucks, come back 10 minutes later, and he tells me he had a cup of coffee, I believe it. Of course, I don't "know" it. Jarriel Johnson seems to know the AV pretty well, he sleeps with her, and he drives her to her "dates". I doubt he thinks she is giving piano lessons in there. I'd also guess he's driven her before and is well aware of what is going on. I'd also bet she just tells him.. She is who she is, does what she does, and he seems aware of that.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:28:17 PM EST
    khartoum, This is from the other time I posted about Clute:
    I posted that there may be players participating in the Blue Wall of Silence that were at the party and don't know, but don't think, anything happened in the bathroom. Others here replied that in a house that size everyone would know if an attack took place. Here's one party-goer that had to ask his captains if anything happened.
    SomewhatChunky posted:
    Clute says he saw nothing. He was there. So he's pretty sure nothing happened.
    Whether Clute was there all night or not, he is one of the 40+ players that are saying, through their attorneys, that nothing happened. He doesn't know that. He proved it by having to ask his captains whether anything happened. No way around it. He does not know "nothing happened." I suspect he is not the only player there that has to rely on others' versions of what did of didn't happen that night.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:31:38 PM EST
    I had forgotten that the judge (Stephens) who will be ruling on the motions is the same judge who signed the order compelling the DNA swabs from the team. I mention this because if Stephens agrees with the defense, i.e. that he was not given all the information he should have been given in order to make his decision on that issue, then he is not going to be happy with the police and/or prosecutor. Judges, by and large, hate it when they think an attorney has "tried to pull a fast one" on them, or has withheld something from them, deliberately misstated or omitted a key fact. I'm not saying this will color Stephens' rulings, but it isn't a good dynamic when the judge is p*ssed off at you.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:36:29 PM EST
    I found one article on the penalty for a false rape allegation in Oregon. "So, basically, a woman falsely accused three men of felonies for which conviction would have ruined their lives. She gets convicted of a class C misdemeanor for which she faces a maximum sentence that amounts to a slap on the wrist [maximum 30 days]. And people think she's the victim?" It says the cases are rarely even prosecuted. What do you think about that? NC attorneys, is the legal downfall for a false rape charge basically nothing?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:38:00 PM EST
    mik: I missed that link, thanks. "in her own words"? I wonder if that is from someone quoting what she said, or from a statement like Kim provided. If she actually did say that, and wasn't misunderstood, if she did say at first, at the Access Center, that she was raped by 20 men . . . Anyone with an explanation for that, and does that count as an inconsitency?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:41:07 PM EST
    IMHO Wrote
    Whether Clute was there all night or not, he is one of the 40+ players that are saying, through their attorneys, that nothing happened. He doesn't know that. He proved it by having to ask his captains whether anything happened. No way around it. He does not know "nothing happened." I suspect he is not the only player there that has to rely on others' versions of what did of didn't happen that night.
    I agree with that 100%. Just like when I have the family over for Christmas Dinner, there's no way I "know" everything that happens -- I have some pretty develish nephews and sometimes things "happen" :) I doubt any one person knows everything that happened in that house that night. I doubt there has ever been a party in history anywhere where any one person knows everything that happened. So what's the point? I see no way a gang rape could have happened without many of the partygoers being aware of it. One could argue whether or not many would stand by while it occurred and cover it up later (I strongly think no to both), but I think it is difficult to imagine a scenario where many of the partygoers would not have been aware of a gang rape going on in the bathroom. if there was one......

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:41:16 PM EST
    imho: I think reasonable minds can interpret Clute's questioning of Evans differently.
    He proved it by having to ask his captains whether anything happened.
    It could be that, or it could be more like Chunky does:
    So he goes to his captain and asks him if anything happened -- just to make sure.
    Matter for the jury to decide.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#89)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:44:50 PM EST
    SomewhatChunky posted:
    IMHO, "1. from sitting in a car nearby, can determine another person in a hotel room is "involved in some sexual manner" with a man."
    Maybe not. But when I drop a friend of at Starbucks, come back 10 minutes later, and he tells me he had a cup of coffee, I believe it. Of course, I don't "know" it.
    No, you don't know it, but at least you were led to believe it. We don't know what the accuser told Jarriel when she got back to the car. If she told him she had v*ginal sex with anyone that weekend, he didn't include that in his statement.
    Jarriel Johnson seems to know the AV pretty well, he sleeps with her, and he drives her to her "dates". I doubt he thinks she is giving piano lessons in there. I'd also guess he's driven her before and is well aware of what is going on. I'd also bet she just tells him.. She is who she is, does what she does, and he seems aware of that.
    I haven't heard anyone claim they know of the accuser having sex with a man for money, do you? From the defense motion:
    Had investigator Hinman bothered to interview Jarriel Johnson at the time ( a task the Durham Police Department did not accomplish until April 6, 2006), he would have discovered sooner that [redacted] was involved in some sexual manner with at least four different men during the weekend from March 10 through 12, 2006.
    If Mr. Johnson knows that, he did not include it in his statement to the police, so how could the investigators have known that from interviewing him? The defense is fast and loose with the facts in that motion.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#90)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:48:46 PM EST
    SharonInJax posted:
    Matter for the jury to decide.
    I doubt any jury will be hearing from Clute. If you have to ask someone whether anything happened, you don't know that it didn't.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#91)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:51:16 PM EST
    I haven't heard anyone claim they know of the accuser having sex with a man for money, do you?
    She works for an escort service. She goes on one-on-one dates. That's what they do.....

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#92)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:55:40 PM EST
    SomewhatChunky posted:
    I doubt any one person knows everything that happened in that house that night. I doubt there has ever been a party in history anywhere where any one person knows everything that happened.
    So what's the point?
    I see no way a gang rape could have happened without many of the partygoers being aware of it. One could argue whether or not many would stand by while it occurred and cover it up later (I strongly think no to both), but I think it is difficult to imagine a scenario where many of the partygoers would not have been aware of a gang rape going on in the bathroom. if there was one.
    I agree with you. It could have happened with out everyone knowing it. Now we are just haggling over how many is "many." What is the point? All 40+ guys don't have to be covering up a gang rape.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 09:01:04 PM EST
    Meant that metaphorically, imho. Not The Jury in this case.