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AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:10:45 AM EST
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Why am I not surprised?

An Iraqi man raised fresh questions about the events surrounding the end of
Iraq's most-wanted militant. The man, who lived near the scene of the bombing, told AP Television News on Friday that he saw U.S. soldiers beating an injured man resembling al-Zarqawi until blood flowed from the victim's nose.

Does an anonymous report mean a beating happened? No, but the AP is not the National Enquirer and it doens't print bald accusations. Think about it. Pumped up soldiers on a fresh bombing scene realize they've captured the bronze alive (Osama being the gold and Saddam the silver) -- what do you think they did, read him his Miranda rights or give him a few little jubilant stomps?

Killing Zarqawi and three women in the house with him was not an act of war. It was an act of retaliatory terrorism. By our government. And I don't want it to be in my name. Even if he was, as we're told, the devil incarnate. Violence begets violence. It's time for the war and the killing to stop.

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    AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi | 71 comments (71 topical)
    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:47:12 AM EST
    No, I don't believe it. Propaganda is vital to both sides and if the insurgency can spin it to their benefit, they will. Did it happen? Who knows? But I'll give our troops the same benefit of the doubt I'd give any other accused. Innocent until proven guilty.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#3)
    by Scrutinizer on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:49:58 AM EST
    TL- You know that I agree with you about the invasion of Iraq. I also think that al-Zarqawi was a straw man whose video-game execution conveniently coincided with the increased coverage of Haditha. The Bushies are even trumpeting the use of cell-phone intercepts in the operation against al-Zarqawi, probably to use that as a justification for the illegal domestic surveillance program the government is running (hi there, NSA!). At the same time, I'd treat this report with a strong dose of skepticism until it's verified. I wouldn't want this to turn into a story about the evil soldiers---it should be a story about the evil policies that make these actions possible.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#4)
    by cpinva on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:56:19 AM EST
    No, but the AP is not the National Enquirer and it doens't print bald accusations.
    perhaps not, but it does get its facts wrong on occasion. or just gets duped into reporting incorrect data, like every other news gathering organization. i'll wait for the cliff's notes version. could it have happened that way? sure, it could have, no doubt. did it? beats me, i wasn't there, neither were you, or anyone else on this board. i think i'll wait for definitive accounts from eyewitnesses, and then sort through them to see which makes sense. i'm a bit surprised at you TL. not for reporting this, but for creating, out of whole cloth, a potential scenario, without getting the facts. shame on you!

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:03:46 AM EST
    im not a lawyer, but would Miranda even enter into the picture here? TL, if you are going to go for satire, you have to indicate as such with a little ;-) like jimbo, so that we we know you've just been funny. "alright then..." Carl Childers

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:05:29 AM EST
    The Miranda rights was a sarcastic/satirical comment. No, you don't read Miranda rights -- although John Walker Lindh should have gotten his.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:07:51 AM EST
    TL and the AP: Willing to believe anything, so long as it makes the US look bad. I notice a dearth of reporting on various allegations about UN peacekeeping troops over the last few years. Interesting, that.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#8)
    by Cromagnon on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:09:38 AM EST
    So... we're all in a snit because a murdering thug terrorist, one who was enaged in active combat operations against US forces, is taken out via combat operations... Yet at the same time you are all to ready to assume that worst about American soldiers doing a very dangerous job just on the word of one Iraqi. Pretty sad... You know, I've always enjoyed your posts on Plame-gate and all the other nonsense committed by this criminal administration, but when you start rooting for the terrorist over American soldiers that is where I leave the room. Really, this is no different than all the idiot posts at RedState or LGF. Just opposite sides of the same wingnut coin.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:15:22 AM EST
    That's the reason we're all up in arms about this administration! They do un-American stuff all over the place and nobody can even tell what's real and what's propaganda anymore. It's entirely believable that Zarkawi was beaten to death, and how many Iraqis' words do we need to outweigh the official line at this stage? Sure, "war is hell", but illegal invasion is worse. Dude! Where the @#$% is my country?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#10)
    by Peter G on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:17:12 AM EST
    Can anyone explain to me how anyone survives, even briefly, the direct bombing of a house with *two* 500-pound bombs that leave nothing visible but a deep crater, much less emerge with his body and face intact? I'm having trouble picturing how this can occur.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:27:57 AM EST
    The whole story is so unbelievable to begin with that the AP story only adds to the confusion. al-Zarqawi has been a psy/ops character made for the American audience since Powell pointed to him as proof aq was in Iraq. Why would the last chapter, his death, be any less fictional. With the US military controlling the narrative, anything is possible. This was a precision planned operation. All contradictory stories and confusion are part of the psy/ops script. Don't forget that the Predator drones were most likely filming the whole episode. That they did not know whether al-Zarqawi was inside the house or outside is implausible. If the alleged US beating was by the black clad special ops force dressed up to look like Mahdi Army members then the story makes more sense. al Sadr was a sworn enemy of al-Zarqawi and his men would have torn him limb from limb if they caught him. So the US 'beating' was really Mahdi-lite. My guess is that al-Zarqawi was shipped in for a cameo and the beating was a sub plot meant to implicate al-Sadr. It is not unlikely that al Sadr will be the replacement for al-Zarqawi in the ongoing US made for TV docudrama. He has been the understudy for some time now. We'll see very soon as you can be sure that al-Zarqawi replacement had been selected well before this 'final' episode was produced. We'll see very soon as you can be sure that the much needed al-Zarqawi replacement has been selected well before this 'final' episode hit the presses.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:30:07 AM EST
    Maybe showing the Zarqawi Corpse so prominently is one way for the Bush administration to say, "See? We're not lying. This time."
    The Rude Pundit, not for the coy.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:30:39 AM EST
    Peter: First you bomb the site, then you drop the target into the wreckage, so there's a trophy. I'd do one of these: ;) but I ain't smiling.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#14)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:32:44 AM EST
    He may have been thrown clear but i'm just playing devil's advocate.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:33:16 AM EST
    I guess my liberal credentials aren't up to snuff, but I have no problem with the way Al-Zarqawi was disposed of (killed). He was a murderous thug who was directly or indirectly responsible for the beheading and murder of hundreds if not thousands of innocents. Yes, a few kicks before he expired might have been out of line, but it's understandable that Iraqi and American troops may have had a wee bit of pent up anger against him. It's hard to hold soldiers to high moral standards in the heat of combat. The real scandal here is that Bush could have taken this guy out *before* Iraq was invaded. But Al-Zarqawi was convenient "evidence" that Saddam supported terrorists -- even though Al-Zarqawi and his group were camped out in Kurdistan -- out of reach of Saddam (but not out of reach of our predator missiles). --Beo

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:38:16 AM EST
    Is Zarqawi The Son Of God? I think Bush will raise him from the dead and have him walking the streets of Iraq preaching democracy. Of course with a ton of armed soliders as his servants. Is it possible can it be pulled off Bush transforming Muslims into Bush Worshippers in the name of the prophet Zarqawi. He who don't believe get head chopped off.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#17)
    by Scrutinizer on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:15:01 PM EST
    Beo- I read these comments in an AP interview by Michael Berg, whose son was one of those beheaded by al-Zarqawi:
    I think al-Zarqawi's death is a double tragedy. His death will incite a new wave of revenge. George Bush and al-Zarqawi are two men who believe in revenge. ... Zarqawi felt my son's breath on his hand as held the knife against his throat. Zarqawi had to look in his eyes when he did it. George Bush sits there glassy-eyed in his office with pieces of paper and condemns people to death. That to me is a real terrorist.
    Cro- The sad thing is that reasonable people can stop and say "Hey, maybe that did happen." Sad because we've read accounts of some of our soldiers torturing prisoners and committing atrocities. This report, although I take it skeptically, is believable simply because we've heard stories like it that have turned out to be true. JR- So, did the evil UN peacekeeping troops came out of the black helicopters and abuse people? My, oh my. I'll bet they are the ones responsible for Abu Ghraib, and Haditha, and Gitmo, and extraordinary rendition. Or are you saying that because other troops have committed atrocities, it's okay if ours do too? That Right Wing moral relativism is so hard to keep up with. Squeaky- That one was a little too "tin foil" for me. But we've been lied to so much up to now, who knows? Thanks for your posts about al-Zarqawi's background and the propaganda effort that raised him from "too extreme for bin-Laden" to "major al-Qui'da figure in Iraq." Some of that stuff I didn't know, and I wondered how he suddenly became such a big deal.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#18)
    by cpinva on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:40:06 PM EST
    The real scandal here is that Bush could have taken this guy out *before* Iraq was invaded.
    no, the real scandal is that we invaded a country, which posed no immediate threat to us, based on lies and distortions. i don't know how you could get any more scandalous than that.
    So... we're all in a snit because a murdering thug terrorist, one who was enaged in active combat operations against US forces, is taken out via combat operations...
    cromagnon, see above. perhaps that might enlighten you, or not. the problem with committing a criminal act (and pre-emptively invading a country posing no threat to you would qualify.) is that everything that follows is pretty much a criminal act as well, regardless of the propaganda. it's the old "fruit of the poisonous tree" thing. bear in mind, our military is not to blame, they don't make policy decisions, our elected officials do. they just follow the orders of those elected policy makers, to the best of their ability. don't delude yourself into thinking this is some kind of win for us either. all it does is provide another "martyr for the cause" for the bad guys. that, and another leader will pop up to take his place. remember the basic rule of life: we're all expendable.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#19)
    by scribe on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 12:56:47 PM EST
    Peter, re the 2 500 pounders Short answer: You don't, or at least it is highly unlikely. I've smelled "staged" around this guy since he was photographed wielding an American M249 SAW in that video. He surely didn't know how to use it, and it is not that hard to cycle. Doesn't take much strength. All of which implies unfamiliarity with the weapon he's wielding (not likely in a guy fighting and running all the time) and possibly having been debilitated in captivity. One more incidence of "staged" in my opinion. It might be useful if some congresscritter could get the GAO to audit where all the M249's we've bought actually are. The Army tries to be and usually is pretty good about accounting for weapons. FWIW - there was a report that there was a meeting of congressional Rethugs with one of the WH wigs. The WH guy asked "what can we do to help your prospects?" and a congresscritter said "you could capture Zarqawi". All this transpired about the time the word was starting to

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 01:29:49 PM EST
    Scrutinizer-
    That one was a little too "tin foil" for me. But we've been lied to so much up to now, who knows?
    Yes I got a bit creative there but only because of the ground breaking report by Dexter Filkins. He has been one of the best war reporters in Iraq and has built up tremendous credibility over the last years. For him to report that US special ops soldiers were donning the Mahdi Army uniform is not remotely tin foil. My speculation may sound tin foil but in the context of Filkins report not so much. Nobody has reported anything about US troops impersonating al-Sadr's army, as far as I know, ever. Many have been scratching their heads and speculating that the US was tied up with the death squads, but no one has reported it. What has been reported over and over is that al-Sadr's Mahdi Army who wear black, have been on a campaign of death and destruction against the sunnis. The weird part of the story is why would the special forces blow their cover by way of apology for killing 5 sunni civilians in the village? Maybe it was because they did not want to distract from the al-Zarqawi mission, whatever that was, with a protracted sunni battle. Maybe I am making too much of this but it does connect some mysterious dots regarding the relationship between al-Sadr, the US forces and the actions that have led to the sunni/shia civil war. Ongoing chaos in Iraq only serves al Qaida and the US occupiers and not the Iraqi people. It seems that, once again, instead of being mortal enemies OBL and Bush are allies tied at the hip. Greg Palast reports on how the WH replaced an Iraqi expert with long field experience namely General General Jay Garner, with a hack that knew nothing about Iraq or its people. That hack was none other than the dufus
    Paul Bremer III had no experience on the ground in Iraq, but he had one unbeatable credential that Garner lacked: Bremer had served as Managing Director of Kissinger and Associates.
    We do not know what would have happened if Garner was allowed to stay but his vision seems much more 20/20 in hindsight than the myopia of Bremmer who mismanaged every aspect from the start. Palast

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 01:32:56 PM EST
    scribe - I wish we could get you on TV. Scrutinizer quotes Berg:
    Zarqawi felt my son's breath on his hand as held the knife against his throat.
    Pretty well says it all. So now, let's all weep for Zarqawi. Not.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 01:47:57 PM EST
    Ask his father. But, you know better than he does, dont you putz? After all, you've got powerline and Hannity. They tell the truths that the Left dosnt want to hear because the Left is too busy emboldening the terrorists in order to further the agenda of the Left.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 01:57:22 PM EST
    "Innocent until proven guilty"? Get a grip; we're taking about a war of aggression here, you know, international war crimes and stuff.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#24)
    by ding7777 on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:25:00 PM EST
    No, but the AP is not the National Enquirer and it doens't print bald accusations.
    The AP just awarded John Solomon's its $500 weekly award for Solomon's deceptive reporting on Senator Reid and his "free" boxing ringside seats. As Josh has said, reporters (the lazy reporters anyway) do print "oppo research" as fact without dong any checking. That doesn't mean this story isn't true but just because the AP reported doesn't mean it is true, either

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#25)
    by narius on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:30:33 PM EST
    Zarqawi is a murderous thug & terrorist and you worried about he may be knocked around a bit before he got his "virgins"? He deserved whatever was coming to him.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:30:43 PM EST
    He's not worse than Al Queda, and he's not worse than Charlie or Tex Watsn either. He's just a dork and I dont want a dork for my president, Dork. Why would you?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:35:06 PM EST
    If you are arguing that Al-Zarqawi's death at the hands of Iraqi and American forces was wrong because the taking of human life is always wrong, well, I just can't agree with that position. I believe there are circumstances which it is justified to kill our fellow human beings -- e.g. psychopaths who murder for political gain. The world would have been better off without Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Tojo, et al. Al-Zarqawi's deeds did not scale to these examples, but if he had came to power in Iraq many more people would have died at his hands. I heard Berg being interviewed by Ed Schultz yesterday on Air America. Berg evidently takes the position that killing is never justified. To me it seems eminently impractical in dealing with the realities of human behavior. Berg seemed to think that everything could be solved by peaceful negotiation. But if there are some people who don't care about human life, negotiation is useless. Certainly there are counter-examples. Ghandi and King come to mind. I would argue that they were successful in their non-violent struggles because both of them used moral tactics against governments that claimed to have a mandate of morality. They were successful because of the ability of the nation-state's leaders to feel guilt. I doubt if a Ghandi would have been successful in Nazi Germany -- let alone the totalitarian madhouse that Saddam Hussein created. You might argue that the killing of Al-Zarqawi was against the law. I would agree with this argument, except that there is no rule of law yet in most of Iraq (another one of those little details that Dubya and Rummy don't seem to get). Even so, what if we had captured Al-Zarqawi, and put him on trial in the Hague for crimes against humanity? He would have had a convenient podium to spew out his propaganda. And more medieval-minded nutcases would have rallied to his cause. I would argue that it was morally better to have killed him than to give him a platform to convince others to kill in his name. He might be a martyr now, but I predict the cloak of his martyrdom will wear thin soon. Please don't misunderstand me. I think the invasion of Iraq was a serious blunder. In fact, I think Bush should be impeached for this act (among many). Wouldn't it be fun, if at some point in the future Dubya and Rummy had to stand trial at the Hague? We're in a mess now, though. And there's no easy way out. Slow burning civil war if we stay. Hot burning civil war if we leave. Either way, the rabid dogs in human guise will have a field day until things stabilize. --Beo

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 02:56:55 PM EST
    Jondee writes:
    Ask his father. But, you know better than he does, dont you putz?
    Putz? Nice insult, Jondee. Showcases your amazing lack of writing ability. Yes indeed. Hey, everybody, look! Jondee is writing insults again. Isn't he/she cute? Do you think he/she got out of junior high? I would say tenth grade. "Putz" is pretty mature. Shows he/she can get into the local pool hall. Probably big for his/her age. And yes, I do know better than the Father. The fact that he is misguided is his business. When he starts spouting nonsense that will get people killed if they follow it, then it is my business. Just so you know.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:04:27 PM EST
    Dont get those Depends in a bunch again putz. You make more work for your nurse when you do that. Lets see, getting people killed. How many people were getting killed before you started shaking those chickenhawk pom-poms Jim? You dont care about getting people killed as long as your surrogates are killing people. And you get to keep shillin for your little shrub.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#30)
    by John Mann on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:22:59 PM EST
    Dork wondered:
    It seems that you are all convinced that George Bush is actually worse than Al Qaeda. Do I have that right?
    I guess it depends on what you mean by "worse". Do you mean "the one who is responsible for the most civilian deaths" is worse? Do you mean "the one who is responsible for destroying the infrastructure of an entire country of 70 million people and bombing them back into the stone age" is worse? Maybe you could define what you mean by "worse", using some measurable criteria of your own choosing.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:27:59 PM EST
    ppj, pretty much everyone on this site thinks you're a friggin' moron with serious mental problems. so, I wouldn't be attacking Jomdee, who is a hundredfold more respected than you are.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#32)
    by John Mann on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 03:30:25 PM EST
    And yes, I do know better than the Father. The fact that he is misguided is his business.
    Your insolence is truly stunning, Jim.
    When he starts spouting nonsense that will get people killed if they follow it, then it is my business.
    You mean like all the lies told by your heroes in the White House? Why not make that your business, Jim?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimcee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 04:11:44 PM EST
    But of course TalkLeft supports the troops.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 04:36:52 PM EST
    Support the troops but not crack-brained nitwits with delusions of granduer that misuse them.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 05:49:58 PM EST
    There are bad apples in every group, including the military. Did you forget about Abu Ghraib so quickly? Should I support Ivan Frederickson, Lynndie England or Charles Graner? Did you miss this picture or this one? Yes, I support the troops -- but not the bad apples among them. And blind faith in your leaders and an ill-advised war entered into under false pretenses had led to the death of 2,489 of those troops as of June 8.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 05:57:13 PM EST
    Let's see, is the rule "Always take the word of an anonymous source over that of US troops, because US troops are evil," but we support the troops??

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#37)
    by John Mann on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:25:33 PM EST
    What does "support the troops" mean? Does it mean "pat 'em on the back when they shoot a civilian through the head"? Does it mean "pray for them and hope they don't get killed"? Does it mean "bring them home now"? Seriously, what does it mean?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#38)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:25:59 PM EST
    The whole thing is bull. Whatever killed the man, it was not a 500-pound bomb. We know that's a lie, because the building was vaporized and the guy supposedly inside came out looking like he had been slapped by a high-school freshman. Then he died, with hardly a mark on him. Sure would like to see the autopsy report. It seems that a lot of people are willing to take the word of people who have been wrong about EVERYTHING SO FAR that he was a terrorist, and that his role was important. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me a thousand times in a row, I must be a Republican. How many lies about Iraq would have to be exposed to suggest that a little skepticism is a good idea and a lot of skepticism is a BETTER idea? The only importance of Al-Zarqawi that I can detect is to the PR and psyops that led us into the worst strategic decision in American history, and it seems pretty conveeeeenient that he was "killed trying to escape" so we'll never know his side of the story or what evidence was used to execute him before the "fair trial." Bet the rent and the kid's college fund that the autopsy won't be released.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:34:22 PM EST
    Heaven forfend! Those dread liberals complicating things with their irksome poring over detail, nuance and all the dimensions they insist on allowing into their discussions of current events. Nope! Boil it all down to the absolute simplest terms so no one in all trolldom need add thought to their daily grind. Do you never tire of being boors? Or are you boors because you are already so tired of thinking all you can do is try to ruin whatever highlights your lack of functionality by functioning? What is the key? This is what put * in the White House, and even though he never won it fair and square, there really does seem to be a lot of people who appreciate that pervasive absence of regard for probity and reason. It was wrong to invade Iraq! This pretty much keeps us in the wrong about anything that comes of that heinous blunder. Admit it, stop it, and you can stop spending all your time making yourselves look like dangerously stupid brutes. How can that be a bad thing?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#40)
    by John Mann on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:44:39 PM EST
    Geez, Agent99, that's pretty well said.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:47:34 PM EST
    Should anyone contact the ACLU? Maybe we can find one of his relaitves to sue over prisoner abuse. Perhaps a warrant should have been delivered before the bombs? I wonder if maybe we should make sure no one re-reads the initial reports that stated that his corpse had been cleaned up so it would not be so terrible to look at? And by all means let us not talk about how it is becoming one of the common tactics of the terrorists to plant false accusations of abuse. This victory over Al Qaeda must be minimized if not ignored. After all, if the terorists saw that they had lost their sympathetic audience in America and the West, they might see that they have lost, and the evil * in the WH has won. And we can't have that, can we?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:54:30 PM EST
    Not when priority number one is coddling the Shrubs entitled little as* and spending a trillion dollars, and throwing any number of young men into the fire in order to make the neocon master race's dreams come true.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:55:23 PM EST
    aqre they terrorists if they're defending their country because a sosiopath and his posse wants their oil?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#44)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 06:58:17 PM EST
    What does "support the troops" mean?
    According to PPJ and other trolls it means that if you question Halliburton's no-bid contracts, you are aiding the terrorists.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:48:31 PM EST
    I have to admit I lately found myself getting a bit depressed at the thought of the Democrats back in charge of US national security. But if what I see on this site is in any way representative of the world view and powers of analysis to be found among the people who control the Democratic party, then there is absolutely nothing to worry about. This is the kind of stuff that wins local elections and ballot initiatives in Berkeley and Boulder. And that's all it wins. But that's OK, folks, you just keep on keeping on. Please.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:52:50 PM EST
    As an ex-military physician, I'll step into this disucssion thusly: Fragment, blast, and thermal injuries from explosions are complex things, and it's very possible that Zarqawi could have survived the initial blast. In fact, I'd bet a nice cold beer that he was outside the house when the bombs hit. Blast injury is divided into Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary. Primary blast injury is from the overpressure (blast wave) that high-order detonations produce. Secondary blast injury is from high-velocity fragments (this accounts for most of the injuries from explosions), and tertiary blast injury results from being physically thrown a distance by the explosion itself. Blast waves "flow" around structures, analagous to waves in water, and being on the leeward side of a solid structure can lower the peak overpressure significantly, such that survival is very possible. Distance is also key; blast overpressure decays with the cubed root of the distance from the epicenter of the blast. To give you a rough idea of what pressures cause what injuries, a peak overpressure of 5-6psi will rupture eardrums, 15psi will rupture lungs, and higher pressures can rupture intestines (gas-filled structures like ears, lungs, etc are particularly susceptible due to the compressible nature of gasses). Anyone inside the structure was probably instantly killed. Solid walls, even as they fail, will contain and reflect blast waves inside a structure, with any corner being the worst place to stand. A corner will "focus" the blast wave and greatly increase the overpressure at that point. If the second bomb hit the same crater as the first bomb, then the blast wave would have had to "flow" up and out of the crater and across the ground. If Zarqawi were laying prone and stunned from the initial blast (undoubtedly deaf from his ruptured eardrums), then the overpressure that hit him laying prone (the best position to be in if you wish to survive any explosion) may have also been lessened. It's actually entirely possible that Zarqawi was alive when coalition forces arrived... no conspiracy required, just the physics of high explosives and pressure wave propagation.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 08:55:12 PM EST
    Supporting the troops to the right seems to require having blind faith in our leaders and ignoring the bad apples. Thanks, New Guy for your explanation, and welcome.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 09:23:17 PM EST
    Or maybe they are not. It is really hard to tell, they sound like the europeans I have talked to.
    You may have been talking but I doubt they were listening.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 09:57:02 PM EST
    NewGuy, thanks for that gripping account. more people need to have that sort of visceral real-world imagery presented to them as an antidote for high-minded chicken-hawkism (jimbo says what?). welcome. Oscar, the only thing worse than no one listening to anything you say is for everyone to be listening when you have nothing to say. such as meself....

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 09:58:02 PM EST
    To: TheNewGuy This is why blogging is important and valuable. Thank you for taking the time and adding the expertise. I marvel at the willingness (and creativity) of people to conjure up scenarios and then to actually extrapolate from them with no regard for their own lack of expertise and/or the dearth of information (like you provided) on which to base their conjecture. And, for what it's worth, I'm not too worked up about anything that may have happened to the guy on the receiving end of whatever killed him. Let's just be content in the knowledge that some very twisted and evil (yes, I used the E word) person is out of commission, permanently. The US military did something to terminate a guy who should have been stopped long ago, no matter what his "justification" was in his own mind. "The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." -Albert Einstein Not bad, Albert. Not bad.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:21:07 PM EST
    New Guy- Wow! Thanks for all the interesting details on how bombs kill. I do not think that they apply to al-Zarqawi though. My guess is that he was brought to the location possibly in the ambulance and had been captured at a different time somewhere else, or it was not Zarqawi. Dexter Filkins (NYT) has written three articles about the al- Zarqawi incident and they are all quite excellent. In his new article At Site of Attack on Zarqawi, All That's Left Are Questions he is strangely reserved. A real 'read through the lines' piece', very understated. Especially compared to the other two.
    General Caldwell said the changing details were a result of the confusion typical in the immediate aftermath of military operations. "There is no intention on anybody's behalf to engage in deception, manipulation or evasion," he said...... .....Eventually, he said, the American military would have "an amazing story to tell" about the operation, one that involved weeks of assembling an intelligence jigsaw, some of it drawn from high-technology tracking of Mr. Rahman, some of it "good old human intelligence" gathered from Iraqis and other sources, which he did not name.
    The rest of the story seems to reflect military spin.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 11:15:35 PM EST
    Been a lurker here for a while... happy to be of assistance.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 02:07:42 AM EST
    The rest of the story seems to reflect military spin.
    Or possibly someone trying to share information as openly as he can without speculating too much, or prematurely.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#54)
    by Jack on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 06:45:43 AM EST
    Here is what we know for a fact. It cannot be disputed. The Iraqi and Coallition Forces meant to do al-zacky harm ... mortal harm. He is dead and that is a good thing.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 07:37:06 AM EST
    First, thanks New Guy. et al - I gotta love it. We have New Guy, who understands and explains, and then we have Squeaky write:
    I do not think that they apply to al-Zarqawi though. My guess is that he was
    You see New Guy, you can't overcome lack of logic, experience and knowledge when people want desperately to do: 1. Blame Bush. 2. Blame US. And you can't do when you have people such as BigUnit12 are willing to write such things as:
    Like aaron if I was in Iraq, I also would be fighting with the Iraqi freedom fighters.
    And you can't do it when the Left's latest argument is, "Well wouldn't you be fighting invaders if someone invaded your country?" The answer, of course, is yes, because my country is just and good. And no if my country had a government such as Saddam's. But somehow the second part of the question rarely gets mentioned, so what is done is that Saddam's regime is given the moral equivalent of the US, and the terrorists elevated to the position of "Freedom Fighters." So information from the government is automatically disregarded in favor of any number of theories that are always against the government. Or, as Squeaky put it so clearly:
    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.
    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#56)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:16:15 AM EST
    But somehow the second part of the question rarely gets mentioned, so what is done is that Saddam's regime is given the moral equivalent of the US, and the terrorists elevated to the position of "Freedom Fighters."
    As you well know this is just another one of your BS strawmen. But what we do know that you are the king of moral relativism. No matter what Bush or our miltary does, its ok because we are somehow better. Good little Fascist. With your logic, not to mention your overt racism towards Muslims, all can be explained away and ignored. Blind alegience to a corrupt state is the basis of all Fascists states.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:35:43 AM EST
    SD - I have never claimed we are perfect. But yes. We are better. Much better. And I find it sad that you cannot see that for yourself. So strawman? No. Just a factual point that I would fight for my country because it was just and good. Now, if you want to say that the terorists, many of whom are not Iraqi, are fighting because they believe, "My country right or wrong," then I would expect you to condemn them with the same amount of vigor you condemn those Americans who take that position. That you do not defines you very well.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#58)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:41:43 AM EST
    SD - I have never claimed we are perfect. But yes. We are better. Much better. And I find it sad that you cannot see that for yourself.
    We are better in certain ways, but you use that to wollow in moral relativism and excuse all that the US does wrong, because being the good brown shirt you are the US can do no wrong Anyone who kills innocents should and has been condemned by me. We have control only over ourselves. I want us to be better than them. You use them as a means to justify the US getting down in the gutter with AQ Ya cant have it both ways.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#59)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:04:21 AM EST
    But yes. We are better. Much better. Racism rears it's ugly head again. War will continue forever as long as we have racist statements like that.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#60)
    by Slado on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:48:42 AM EST
    TL your moral position against this war is fine but it does not excuse jumping at every chance to paint the war in the way you see it. To "support the troops" means supporting the mission as well IMHO. The "troops" need to win. Define winning in any terms you want but we cannot fail in this endevour. I will not call you a traitor and all the lame things others call people who don't support the war but ask you questions. The decision to go to Iraq has been made. Of the 2,489 troops that have died serving in Iraq and of the thousands more that were injured how many of them "blindly supported" the president their superios and believed in the mission? Do you "support" them by saying their deaths and sacrafice were in vain? Do you "support" them when you assume that some of those who haven't died or been wounded are guilty of war crimes, abuses and dasterdly deads before all evidence is heard? Do you "support" them when you assume that they cannot control their own actions and are mearly pawns of this administration? Do you "support" them when you excuse the actions of their enemy in order to make your point that this whole undertaking is meaningless and unjust? I do not dengrate your support only ask you these questions. I support the troops by praying when I hear they are killed and injured. I support them by cheering when they accomplish their missions and hoping that they will prevail in this conflict so they can come home. I support them by realizing why not perfect our mission in Iraq has a purpose and that if it does succeed their deaths, sacrifice and this whole undertaking "might" be worth it and we will leave that part of the world a better place.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:49:06 AM EST
    So information from the government is automatically disregarded in favor of any number of theories that are always against the government.
    Yeah Jim what does that say about the 25 million dollar bounty on Zarqawi's head. Have a explanation for that one. Before Zarqawi died was there such an allegience among terrorist to ignore the bounty on Zarqawi's head. Who collects the reward.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#62)
    by John Mann on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 12:35:50 PM EST
    Just a factual point that I would fight for my country because it was just and good.
    Well, get on up there, Boy. Uncle Sam needs you.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimcee on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 02:08:55 PM EST
    When I said 'support the troops' what I really meant in a rather sarcastic way was that if TL is willing to give the Duke lacrosse team a fair vetting on this site then why are you so sure that the Haditha or Zarqawi kiliings happened as reported by your sources? Seems to me that most of what has appeared here is heresay at the lowest level. Some unnamed man insists that American Soldiers were beating Zarqawi. Perhaps they were performing CPR? Perhaps the unnamed man was an operative for AQ? There are two speculative sides here. TalkLeft appears to believe the worst about US soldiers in Iraq because it disagrees with the War in general and Bush in particular. Me, I'll wait for the full investigation to unfold before I come to a conclusion. I just want to be fair.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 10:30:43 PM EST
    Not bad, Albert. Not bad.
    Yeah but here is a better quote from Einstein... Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. ...in that it applies to all the misanthropes that support wars of empire. Some more choice words for them:
    He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.
    It is horrifying to realize that the poison of militarism and imperialism threatens to bring undesirable changes in the political attitude of the United States....What we see at work is not an expression of the sentiments of the American people; rather, it reflects the will of a powerful minority which uses its economic power to control the organs of political life.
    Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding.
    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:34:26 AM EST
    There will never be peace as long as radical Islam exists. Never.
    The mere absence of war is not peace.
    The civilized world has been at war with Islam from it's inception. I read Zarqawi's wife was sixteen years of age and their child 18 months. I pray for their souls. I suspect this was a forced marriage. I glad he's dead. I hope he suffered.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#66)
    by Sailor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:43:33 AM EST
    The civilized world has been at war with Islam from it's inception.
    crusades anyone?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#67)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 10:01:09 AM EST
    I glad he's dead. So you feel the same way he did about his victims after his attacks? Well... I guess you're entitled to an opinion. Sad that it's based on "an eye for an eye", like his ideas of justice. I hope he suffered. Does something for you, does it?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:45:25 PM EST
    According to Al-Jazeera, he wasn't beaten: see here. Political differences aside, we're all Americans. We have a very similar social and moral upringing. These soldiers are similar to friends you had growing up. Add on top of that the rules and dicipline the military places on them and the chances that they 'beat' a wounded unarmed combatant falls below the point of which you should report it.
    "...but the AP is not the National Enquirer and it doens't print bald accusations"
    Taking a quote on this incident from someone in that town that harboured and protected Zarquawi is like taking a quote from Hamas on the alleged Isreali shelling of a beach. The sources are inherently biased, to report them it be colored by their bias. The AP should have waited for some report by a trained scientific mind that looked at the damage and determined whether the guys face has been pummeled by the hilt of a gun. They didn't, there for they printed a bald accusations. Now that we know it's no true, how many apologizes for the error have we seen?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 03:07:56 PM EST
    Now that we know it's no true, how many apologizes for the error have we seen?
    So the al-jeerezza article settles all the questions? Very funny. If you notices the 'information' is all in quotes by US military doctor Colonel Steve Jones and spokesman for US-led forces in Iraq, Major General William Caldwell. Those guys are under no obligation to tell the truth. In fact telling the truth has been consistantly blamed for compromising national security. So it is more likely that they are lying in order to protect you. We are at war you know.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 03:16:10 PM EST
    Wolfeater, Atilla, fenrisvulven - Those were all special detachments under Himmlers direction weren't they? Or do they just sound like they were?

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#71)
    by Sailor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 03:18:09 PM EST
    according to Al-Jazeera, he wasn't beaten: see here.
    Actually all AJ did was quote the US military ... not exactly the most truthiness folks out there. Can you say Tillman, Haidatha, 'only insurgents were killed' when it turns out one of them was 4 years old ... etc.
    The AP should have waited for some report by a trained scientific mind that looked at the damage and determined whether the guys face has been pummeled by the hilt of a gun.
    Riiiight ... after the US had bulldozed the remains and called in their own 'specialist' to do the autopsies while no media or iraqis were allowed to attend. BTW, dying from internal bleeding is consistent with having boots stomped on your chest.

    Re: AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi (none / 0) (#72)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 03:19:40 PM EST
    Google Crusades + pogroms to read about some other people "we've been at war with."

    AP Reports: Witness Saw Soldiers Beat Zarqawi | 71 comments (71 topical)