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U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:17:01 AM EST
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Update: Larisa at Raw Story has more details. David Corn weighs in on Bush and Zarqawi.

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Original Post:

The U.S. military has confirmed that it killed Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi in a military air strike.

Gen. George Casey, the US top commander in Iraq, said the hunt for the leader of Iraq's insurgents began two weeks ago and his body was identified through ....fingerprints, facial recognition as well as scars and tattoos.

US military spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell showed a picture of al-Zarqawi's face after the air strike with his eyes closed and blood spots under him. He said a DNA test had been carried out on his body the results of which would be released in 48 hours.

The U.S. says al-Zarqawi's "spiritual advisor" led them to him. Here is video of the air strike and video of the Iraqi Prime Minister's announcement with comments by Rumsfeld and Tony Blair.

Here is some BBC analysis of the killing . Some quick thoughts of mine:

  • Someone will take his place, most likely Abu Masri. Just like gangs and the mob, when one goes, another rises up.
  • His face looks very intact for someone who was killed by two 500 pound bombs.
  • The U.S. says they recovered a lot of documentary evidence that is leading them to others. So that wasn't destroyed either.
  • Because this Administration has so little credibility and a history of distracting us with terror news when it is hurting politically, like now, I can't help but wonder if al-Zarqawi wasn't killed some time ago and they just decided to announce it today and tell us he was killed in yesterday's raid. Everyone hates al-Zarqawi, even the Iraqis, particularly because of the wedding bombings.
  • We're probably no closer to Osama since al-Zarqawi's influence was on the wane.

....he was not a one-man band. There has in fact been some discussion about how central a role Zarqawi had been playing of late. Earlier this year, a new central body called the Mujahideen Council was formed to try to unify parts of the insurgency, but Zarqawi's name was not mentioned.

If Zarqawi was being by-passed, that indicates perhaps that other elements were growing stronger and are therefore not going to be affected by his absence.

Al-Zarqawi was a despicable human being, responsible for suicide bombings and beheadings. I'm not sorry he's dead. I don't doubt the U.S. killed him. But I do wonder when he really died. I am sorry a woman and child were killed in the air strike -- more collateral damage.

Update: the New York Times on the timing.

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    U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death | 143 comments (143 topical)
    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:19:06 AM EST
    Won't shed a tear for the guy, but he's just one man. Just like Saddam is/was. And we've seen what THAT has evolved into. One person dies, another steps us. Or a dozen. Such are civil wars of foreign occupation.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:20:54 AM EST
    I thought it took longer for DNA tests, at least that is what they say when they bag on the tv shows like CSI. Even al-Qaeda says he's dead, let's spend more money.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#3)
    by Steven Sanderson on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:31:46 AM EST
    Which al-Zarqawi was killed, the one the U.S. has previously described as having an artificial leg or the two-legged version?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#4)
    by Punchy on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:32:37 AM EST
    Gen. George Casey, the US top commander in Iraq, said the hunt for the leader of Iraq's insurgents began two weeks ago Somebody...please clarify. Say what? We have only begun looking for the most wanted man in Iraq since Memorial Day, 2006? He must have mispoke, right?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#5)
    by scribe on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:36:35 AM EST
    Despite all the chest-beating and crowing going on all over the right-wing noise machine, the fact of the matter remains that this particular guy was just one in a sea of insurgents and killing him makes little if any difference. The administration has managed to cut off one of the Hydra's heads. Nonetheless, al-Zarqawi's own people appear to have put out a confirming web message, so any wound to the Hydra has already healed and two heads will soon grow back in its place. (After all, how many #3 guys in AQ have we already captured or killed?) That is and has been the fundamental problem with policies this administration has pursued - they have personalized this fight (like all their others). They do not and, because they personalize their issues, cannot recognize that resolution of any issue requires recognizing it's the issue which needs resolution, and personalities are irrelevant. They continue to stumble along, refusing to recognize that terrism isn't about and does not happen in a vacuum - there are very few nihilists out there, and they tire quickly and command few followers - it's the economics and the issue, not the person, that need addressing. al-Zarqawi qua a-Zarqawi was and is irrelevant - if he were never present in Iraq, someone else would have risen up into the position he held, just as someone else will now step up into the position he held before his demise. Fixating on al-Zarqawi's death - as the admin and MSM (worldwide, I might add) would have us do - is a distraction, pure, simple, and solely. Of course, my preceding paragraph assumes that this administration is really interested in, or has its' objective as, resolving the disputes and discords which are manifesting as the trouble in Iraq specifically, and terrism generally. I have long had serious doubts about whether they ever wanted to resolve the underlying issues so as to facilitate a peaceful resolution. Such would require (A) never going in to Iraq, (B) actually capturing bin Laden and subjecting him to a real criminal trial, (C) not using the GWOT as a pretext for radical expansion of the executive's power, (D) reordering our energy priorities to facilitate using less Mideast oil, and (E) not placing their buddies' profits above the lives of 'murcan soldiers. Impractical, you say? These are no more impractical than the continued bleeding wound we have now.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#6)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:37:38 AM EST
    We can expect the terrorists and insurgents to carry on without him. We can expect the sectarian violence to continue.
    - Chimpy So what's the big deal? This Hydra has many heads.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#7)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:39:11 AM EST
    Scribe beat me to the Hydra analogy; a little slow on the draw.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:42:10 AM EST
    Its clearly good news that he's dead, there's no 2 ways about it. What quantitative effect it will have is unclear. Will it cause the AQ operatives to disperse and leave Iraq? Are there people ready to take over? will he be seen as a martyr? No way to know yet. At best it will only affect the AQ part of the violence, not the ethnic clensing currently going on between Sunnis and Shias. Yesterday's release of Sunni prisoners by the government is a welcomed, but late, gesture towards reconciliation by the government. What effect it will have also is not clear. How much influence does the central government have on the Militias? Not clear. So finally some good news that all can be happy about. The effects will be clear only in the coming months. The recent report by Gen. Pace to the US government and the failure of Amb. Kahalizad (spelling?) to brief Congress and the continued inability of the Iraqi government to appoint head of the 3 ministries should temper everyone's optimism.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#9)
    by scribe on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:49:36 AM EST
    Not tooting my own horn, but rather recounting what happened - I saw this as Fighting the Hydra from, oh, about 5 pm on 9/11/01, while waiting in traffic watching smoke rise from NYC and listening to the radio tell me how the current admin intended to take the fight to the enemy. I remember pounding the steering wheel and asking "how many are you going to kill, when you know that all those you kill will only make for more coming after you?" I'm not that bright, it was just that obvious what a bunch of f*ckheads they are, and how they'd manage to f*ck this up, too.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:50:09 AM EST
    Thoughts and wishes for the woman and child killed by the bombing. Zarqawi reaped what he sowed...I don't know about the thousands of others killed since this debacle began.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:52:32 AM EST
    BTW note the timing. No more time on the evening news about US massacres

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#12)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:54:28 AM EST
    and the dead body is all over our news. No respect for the dead. The retaliation will be to drag out our servicemens' corpses. Because he is a terrorist we feel the need to circulate the dead body to the news and world? What happened to moral relativity?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:59:21 AM EST
    Jlvngstn remember the outrage by Bushco shortly after the start of the war concerning showing living US captives on Islamic TV

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:59:27 AM EST
    et al - Come on folks. Enjoy. It won't hurt to smile at this news.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#15)
    by John Mann on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:01:01 AM EST
    "Big Al" Zarqawi's death is like sticking a finger in the ocean and pulling it out real quick - then noticing how long it took to fill the hole. He was just one of many and it's highly unlikely that his death will have any significance at all.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#16)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:02:49 AM EST
    From nytimes in regards to the timing:
    As news that United States forces had killed the most wanted terrorist in Iraq began to spread through the American security apparatus late Wednesday afternoon, President Bush and his top advisers were meeting in the White House with congressional leaders, who were nervous about continued trouble in Iraq. "What you really need to do," Representative Ray LaHood of Illinois told the president, "is go get Zarqawi," according to an account by the White House press secretary, Tony Snow, who was at the meeting. "I said 'Yeah, we'll just order that up right now,' " Mr. Snow recalled in an interview this morning. Minutes after that exchange, at 3:45 p.m., the national security adviser, Stephen J. Hadley, left the room in response to a Blackberry message to call the American ambassador to Iraq in Baghdad, Zalmay Khalilzad. "We think we have Zarqawi," Mr. Khalilzad told him.
    Impeccable more

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#17)
    by glanton on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:06:16 AM EST
    It's going to be awkward for Priscilla Owen to enter the dating scene again after all these years.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:16:59 AM EST
    Scribe. Nice post.
    They do not and, because they personalize their issues, cannot recognize that resolution of any issue requires recognizing it's the issue which needs resolution, and personalities are irrelevant. They continue to stumble along, refusing to recognize that terrism isn't about and does not happen in a vacuum
    From the outside looking in, it is more than obvious that from the very begining the intellectual standard that has been applied is that of the school playground. I don't know who will stand as the Democratic candidate, but one thing they need to have is statesman like qualities, someone who will bring a little dignity back to the office of the President. Historians will look back at the office of George Bush and shake their heads in disbelief as how a man of such low standing and such limited intellectual capabillities could ever have been elected the POTUS. (Kathrine Harris and Diebold apart)

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#19)
    by Aaron on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:24:13 AM EST
    In fact al-Zarqawi had been on his way out with Al Qaeda for some time, being viewed as an obstacle by a number of forces in Iraq including Al Qaeda. It's even likely that rival Al Qaeda members disclose his position to coalition forces I noticed that some of the righties in the know, who predicted his death yesterday, could see that his time had passed. Zarqawi Scheduled for Martyrdom Perhaps if they had killed him three or four years ago , it might have had some meaningful effect. But under the current circumstances, it's little more than good PR for the Bush White House who are already calling this a great victory. And with the help of the US news media providers it's being played as a major event. Soledad O'Brien was virtually frothing at the mouth on CNN and Fox news/propaganda was likening al-Zarqawi's death to the deaths of Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin, with George Dubya as the conquering hero. Typical.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:27:38 AM EST
    et al - Come on folks. Enjoy. It won't hurt to smile at this news.
    Jim, People are smiling at the news of Zarqawi's death. It's the response and chest pounding by our fearless leaders that people are taking to task.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#21)
    by chew2 on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:32:05 AM EST
    et al - Come on folks. Enjoy. It won't hurt to smile at this news.
    I'm with you. He deserved to be blown up. Rejoicing in his death, doesn't mean we don't get to hold Bush and Co. responsible for their careless and dishonest invasion of Iraq.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:44:48 AM EST
    I love it. Smile and get yer swagger on. One dead terrorist and only one dead child. Meanwhile we're still waxing indignant about Ted Kennedy's "horrible act" 40 years ago. Effing hypocrites.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:50:06 AM EST
    al-Zarqawi was a creation of the WH. He, if in fact this is the man who was in 90 different locations at the same time blowing stuff up, was really just a bit player in the Iraq show. I imagine that a new replacement grand villain has already been developed by the WH and MSM to distract the american public from our own culpability in Iraq. It is just like when a soap star has to die because they move on in their career, have a baby, or are just sick of doing the same schtick day in and day out. Made for TV America is soundly asleep. In the real world Riverbend is lamenting the good old days of carbombs.
    I never thought I'd actually miss the car bombs. At least a car bomb is indiscriminate. It doesn't seek you out because you're Sunni or Shia.
    Yes reality does have a liberal bias. Robert Fisk chimes in on Democracy Now!. Seems that the consensus is nothing has changed or will improve now that al-Zarqawi is dead. Even Bush is saying that, while at the same time claiming that
    the death of al-Qaida in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is a severe blow to the al-Qaida terrorist network.
    Go figure. Guess the WOT is just a cash cow that will never stop being milked. Must have been evil genius Rove that came up with the idea. The scheme sure serves to maintain WH power as they nurse the 24/7 bedwetter pajama party whose members now are all atwitter about al- Zarqawi's impending replacement. What a racket.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:53:21 AM EST
    Jondee you go need to go and take the course "Moral Relativism - how to justify absolutely anything" being given at the AEI by guest instructor Mr. Pajama Pants

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:00:29 PM EST
    Jondee, I echo your comments. AQ never acknowledged the dude as one of them. Why would they be worried about his death? In fact, it seems AQ and GWB are dancing well together, positioning themselves to "help" their partner. My dinosaur (repuke) brain keeps saying it is coincidence but facts saying otherwise keep popping up.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:01:11 PM EST
    i haven't been following the al-zarqawi tale too closely but the way the story began and evolved led me to think that it was not legit. and don't fergit: the source and courier of the al-zarqawi stories has been the us military and the bush felons: known fabricators. funny too that the "news" sources have been so silent on bush hole's war of aggression in Iraq, but now they have the wherewithall to bring us the "good news" from Iraq. Something doesn't smell right here.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:03:17 PM EST
    Et al... Let me recap on the posters here... Dadler.... no big deal Getthept...let's wait for the DNA test Steve S.... was it really him Punchy.... haven't we been looking for him for some time? Scribe... who cares? more will take his place. Desertwine... So what's the big deal? Soccerdad...Actually thinks it's good news (Kudos to you)...but thinks it's all in an effort to detract from other news... Kdog... kinda happy, but concerned about innocents (although I don't think there were any in this case) Jlvnsgtn... concerned about showing his dead body (although I'm sure he'd be asking for proof it it wasn't shown) PPJ...of course, trying to show the positive. John Mann... no big deal Peaches...it's all a big conspiracy Oscar W ... critical of GW (no surprise there) Aaron... he was on his way out ..(IE - no big deal) macromaniac... we shouldn't be celebrating chew2 ...it's good...but i still don't like Bush. So..all in all... there were a couple of kinda sorta positive comments.. I am truly amazed...

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:11:18 PM EST
    macromaniac... we shouldn't be celebrating
    That is an interesting inference of my comment. Allow me to recap your last post. You have nothing of substance to add so you poorly summarize everyone's post and add your own bias. I am not truly amazed....

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:21:21 PM EST
    BB, I don't debate or play basketball with trolls, and being that as you love attention here is some for you written in code norom a era uoy.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#30)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:23:49 PM EST
    BB, Do you honestly want a day of parades and partying? Is this one guy's death REALLY going to make a huge difference? Did getting rid of that one guy Saddam? Come on, if you want to put on your tap shoes and dance the day away in celebration, go ahead. But being "amazed" they're aren't more elated folks who think this is the equivalent of D-Day, I gotta tell ya, it's like complaining that you can't find bleach in the pickle jar. Makes no sense.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:32:51 PM EST
    A celebratory song for BB: Happy days are here again, The bomb did fall Zarqawi's dead So much is solved The future's grand Happy days Are here again.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#32)
    by Patrick on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:38:43 PM EST
    My $.02 for those saying he was just one man. Yes he was, but he was in his position because he had something, charisma, leadership skills, somethinig that allowed him to keep the power. Now he doesn't have it, and someone else will have to step up, who perhaps doesn't have the same levels of ability as Zarqawi. Either way, the "just one man" argument holds little water, IMO. There have been many "just one man" people who have changed the course of world history.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#33)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:40:07 PM EST
    The left likes to point out the innocents but we consider them treasonous Depleted Uranium is completely harmless Happy Days are here again

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#34)
    by Aaron on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:41:24 PM EST
    Looking at all the facts coming in now, and in light of what was happening with the Al Qaeda organization in general, I'm beginning to wonder exactly whose operation this was. Was it really a US operation, or did the US just serve the purposes of Al Qaeda itself, who viewed al-Zarqawi as a destabilizing force in their organizational structure. Someone who served a purpose at one time, helping to focus the insurgency in its infancy, but ultimately a leader who had become a political liability, an increasingly expendable political liability. In a very real sense, the death of al-Zarqawi may help to bring stability to Iraq, but not the kind of stability which will benefit US interests. I think it's important to consider the possibility that the US military has been manipulated into doing Al Qaeda's dirty work for them. Interesting to entertain the possibility that the mighty US military has become little more than the tool of a terrorist organization. They needed to clean house, and we did the sweeping.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#35)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:48:27 PM EST
    As a good liberal, I have to question my own assumptions. Thus, this is from the new post at Back-to-Iraq about the potential significance of Zarqawi's death: In a crucial development, the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, has been killed in an airstrike north of Baqouba in Iraq, Iraqi prime minister Nuri al-Maliki is saying right now. Also, later today, Maliki says he will present his candidates for Defense and Interior ministers. These two stories are intricately related. Details are very sketchy, obviously, as this is breaking now, but Maliki, U.S. ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and American commander Gen. George Casey said a reliable tip on Zarqawi's location came in and allowed the U.S. to call in the bombers. The attack occurred last night at about 6 p.m., BBC says, and he may have been betrayed by someone in his inner circle. Zarqawi's body was identified by facial recognition, Casey said. [ADD 2:57:40 PM +0200 GMT: Intriguing detail: Jordanian intelligence was involved, apparently. No friend of AMZ they, seeing as they had a number of scores to settle with the guy. But considering Jordan's ties with the Ba'athist insurgency, which mostly hated AMZ, this looks more and more like the Ba'athists saw the time had come to turn in AMZ to cement the political deal in Baghdad.] If true, and this should be a very big conditional, This is a big, big success for the Iraqis and the Americans. Zarqawi wasn't the sole force behind the insurgency, but he was the driving personality behind the jihad aspect of the Sunni fighting, which has much larger influence within the Iraqi insurgency than the size of its roster would suggest. It was his connections that brought in a lot of money from the Gulf, and with that cash and influence was able to bleed off some of the Ba'athists and Iraqi Islamists to his part of the insurgency. Also, this indicates that bringing the Sunnis into the government seems to has worked. One of the gambles of bringing the Sunnis in was to see if they could start ramping down the violence through tips, turn-ins and general cooperation. That has always been the central question: Do the Sunnis in government have control over their factions in the insurgency? I've argued here that they don't, but if today's news is true, I may very well need to admit I was wrong on that. Gut feeling is that I was. Casey said they got information on the safehouse where Zarqawi was hiding from local tips, so that indicates the Sunnis have started cooperating with Maliki's government, which means this government may hold up after all. But it is important to realize that this will not end the insurgency. It has numerous factions, not all who are loyal to Zarqawi (obviously, since someone tipped the Americans off.) And it won't end the sectarian violence, because Shi'ite death squads are still operating out of the Interior ministry and other police forces and many Sunni insurgents are not foreign jihadis. They have their own fight with the mainly Shi'ite Maliki government, which they see as a tool of Iran. Remember how happy everyone was after Saddam was captured? And remember how it just kept getting worse and worse?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:51:14 PM EST
    As a good liberal, I have to question my own assumptions. Thus, this is from the new post at Christopher Albritton's Back-to-Iraq about the potential significance of Zarqawi's death: In a crucial development, the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, has been killed in an airstrike north of Baqouba in Iraq, Iraqi prime minister Nuri al-Maliki is saying right now. Also, later today, Maliki says he will present his candidates for Defense and Interior ministers. These two stories are intricately related. Details are very sketchy, obviously, as this is breaking now, but Maliki, U.S. ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and American commander Gen. George Casey said a reliable tip on Zarqawi's location came in and allowed the U.S. to call in the bombers. The attack occurred last night at about 6 p.m., BBC says, and he may have been betrayed by someone in his inner circle. Zarqawi's body was identified by facial recognition, Casey said. [ADD 2:57:40 PM +0200 GMT: Intriguing detail: Jordanian intelligence was involved, apparently. No friend of AMZ they, seeing as they had a number of scores to settle with the guy. But considering Jordan's ties with the Ba'athist insurgency, which mostly hated AMZ, this looks more and more like the Ba'athists saw the time had come to turn in AMZ to cement the political deal in Baghdad.] If true, and this should be a very big conditional, This is a big, big success for the Iraqis and the Americans. Zarqawi wasn't the sole force behind the insurgency, but he was the driving personality behind the jihad aspect of the Sunni fighting, which has much larger influence within the Iraqi insurgency than the size of its roster would suggest. It was his connections that brought in a lot of money from the Gulf, and with that cash and influence was able to bleed off some of the Ba'athists and Iraqi Islamists to his part of the insurgency. Also, this indicates that bringing the Sunnis into the government seems to has worked. One of the gambles of bringing the Sunnis in was to see if they could start ramping down the violence through tips, turn-ins and general cooperation. That has always been the central question: Do the Sunnis in government have control over their factions in the insurgency? I've argued here that they don't, but if today's news is true, I may very well need to admit I was wrong on that. Gut feeling is that I was. Casey said they got information on the safehouse where Zarqawi was hiding from local tips, so that indicates the Sunnis have started cooperating with Maliki's government, which means this government may hold up after all. But it is important to realize that this will not end the insurgency. It has numerous factions, not all who are loyal to Zarqawi (obviously, since someone tipped the Americans off.) And it won't end the sectarian violence, because Shi'ite death squads are still operating out of the Interior ministry and other police forces and many Sunni insurgents are not foreign jihadis. They have their own fight with the mainly Shi'ite Maliki government, which they see as a tool of Iran. Remember how happy everyone was after Saddam was captured? And remember how it just kept getting worse and worse?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:51:16 PM EST
    Yes he was, but he was in his position because he had something, charisma, leadership skills, somethinig that allowed him to keep the power. Now he doesn't have it, and someone else will have to step up, who perhaps doesn't have the same levels of ability as Zarqawi. Either way, the "just one man" argument holds little water, IMO. There have been many "just one man" people who have changed the course of world history.
    The other side to your argument is that the next person could be twice as charismatic and have twice the leadership skills. Your discounting of the "just one man" theory holds little water. Saddam was captured; Uday and Qusay were killed. The situation in Iraq did not improve. Beware the law of unintended consequences.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:53:23 PM EST
    macromaniac... That is an interesting inference of my comment You said... It's the response and chest pounding by our fearless leaders that people are taking to task Like I said... (IE - they shouldn't be celebrating) Jlvngstn... BB, I don't debate. There is nothing to debate here. You're upset because... "Because he is a terrorist we feel the need to circulate the dead body to the news and world: Yes, because like you anti-american libs, the world wants proof that it's him. Dadler.. BB,Do you honestly want a day of parades and partying? I don't believe being happy this scum bag is dead (at the hands of the US military) is going to bring on parades and partying.... but I would rejoyce in the realization that MOST Americans will be happy about this...yes. But being "amazed" they're aren't more elated folks who think this is the equivalent of D-Day, LOL...D-day?? That is a little extreme isn't it? I don't believe I or anyone else is saying anything close to that. My amazement was in the fact that there actually were a couple of semi- postitive statements on here. I'm also amazed at the continued "where's Osama" posts...knowing that when we do get him...most of you will blow that off just like you are doing here. It won't be news you can use anymore. As has been said many time...by many different people... Good news for America is bad news for libs.. How very true that statement is and has been proven yet again today on good ol TL! All of you would be tripping all over yourselves if the Air Strike missed and killed some civilans.. You wouldn't be able to contain yourselves... But this 'good' news is passed off as trivial. libs are truly pathetic. (Libs are ruining this country)

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#39)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:53:50 PM EST
    TL, Sorry for the double-post. Please delete the first one, which isn't formatted correctly. Thanks.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#40)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:57:31 PM EST
    BB, So we're pathetic because we'd care if they missed and killed fifty innocent people? And that's something I'm supposed to be ashamed of? I'll take that as a compliment. Come on, most people in the world can care for, be concerned about, different things at the same time. In fact, most sentient rational creatures do. And I just posted a quote from and link to something you'd appreciate reading, with a link to video of the bombing.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:02:11 PM EST
    Some info on al-Zarqawi: Al-Zarqawi was wounded in an American air strike--not in the leg, as U.S. officials claimed for two years, but in the chest, when the ceiling of the building in which he was operating collapsed on him. Neither did he join Osama bin Laden in the eastern mountains of Tora Bora, as U.S. officials have also said. Bin Laden took only his most trusted fighters to Tora Bora, and al-Zarqawi was not one of them. "Even then--and even more so now--Zarqawi was not the main force in the insurgency," the former Jordanian intelligence official, who has studied al-Zarqawi for a decade, told me. "To establish himself, he carried out the Muhammad Hakim operation, and the attack against the UN. Both of them gained a lot of support for him--with the tribes, with Saddam's army and other remnants of his regime. They made Zarqawi the symbol of the resistance in Iraq, but not the leader. And he never has been." He continued, "The Americans have been patently stupid in all of this. They've blown Zarqawi so out of proportion that, of course, his prestige has grown. And as a result, sleeper cells from all over Europe are coming to join him now." He paused for a moment, then said, "Your government is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy." Western and Israeli diplomats to whom I spoke share this view--and this past April, The Washington Post reported on Pentagon documents that detailed a U.S. military propaganda campaign to inflate al-Zarqawi's importance. Source: Mary Anne Weaver's "The Short, Violent Life of Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi in The New Atlantic July/August 2006 link

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#42)
    by Patrick on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    The other side to your argument is that the next person could be twice as charismatic and have twice the leadership skills.
    Mac, Except I think that if there were such a person he would have already taken over. It's not like they're waiting on democratic elections over there.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#43)
    by peacrevol on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:09:03 PM EST
    Somebody...please clarify. Say what? We have only begun looking for the most wanted man in Iraq since Memorial Day, 2006? He must have mispoke, right?
    I think what they meant by that is that they were following the leads that ultimately led to him for 2 weeks or so. That's the nature of hunting people like him. You might be onto him and be within striking distance and then he vanishes and you have to start all over. I think what they meant was that they were following a fresh group of leads for about 2 weeks. This time he got caught before he could flee. IMO, what this means is that we've f*&#ed up their plans. They'll get new leadership (if the guy was a leader, which I assume he was) and put him up as a martyr. So they'll probably try to continue on and probably will do so to some extent. But if we keep killing AQ leaders, then sooner or later, they're going to stop running out of people willing to lead them. Any time you can throw a hickup in their plans and make them deal with multiple problems at the same time, you disrupt and complicate things for them. That's always good b/c that makes them become less organized. An unorganized enemy is much easier to defeat. Kudos US military on a job well done.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#44)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:09:31 PM EST
    Michael Berg, father of Nicholas Berg, reacts to Al-Zarqawis killing in this interview wih Soledad O'brien.
    Well, my reaction is I'm sorry whenever any human being dies. Zarqawi is a human being. He has a family who are reacting just as my family reacted when Nick was killed, and I feel bad for that. I feel doubly bad, though, because Zarqawi is also a political figure, and his death will re-ignite yet another wave of revenge, and revenge is something that I do not follow, that I do want ask for, that I do not wish for against anybody. And it can't end the cycle. As long as people use violence to combat violence, we will always have violence.
    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#45)
    by peacrevol on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:10:43 PM EST
    Except I think that if there were such a person he would have already taken over. It's not like they're waiting on democratic elections over there.
    perhaps this was the first opportunity he got so he ratted him out...but it doesnt matter b/c either way, the organization has to deal with a change of leadership.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#46)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:16:31 PM EST
    what are some of BB'd characteristics 1. will tolerate no criticism of the leader. 2. if you disagree with BB or the the leader you hate your country 3. Will gladly give up personal freedoms to please the state and its leaders 4. has demonized the opposition such that they are terible foes. For him liberals and Muslims 5. he demonizes and dehumanizes islam and Muslims. in another time and another place his brown shirt would be well decorated.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#47)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:18:32 PM EST
    Michael Berg is a compassionate, evolved and forward thinking human. He will be demonized on LGF in about 10 secs.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#48)
    by chew2 on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:20:14 PM EST
    Daadler
    this looks more and more like the Ba'athists saw the time had come to turn in AMZ to cement the political deal in Baghdad.] If true, and this should be a very big conditional, This is a big, big success for the Iraqis and the Americans. Zarqawi wasn't the sole force behind the insurgency, but he was the driving personality behind the jihad aspect of the Sunni fighting, which has much larger influence within the Iraqi insurgency than the size of its roster would suggest. It was his connections that brought in a lot of money from the Gulf, and with that cash and influence was able to bleed off some of the Ba'athists and Iraqi Islamists to his part of the insurgency.
    Zarqawi promoted vicious attacks on the Shiite community in an explicit effort to foment a civil war. Both Osama and the local Iraqi Sunni jihadis and tribal leaders had attempted to lessen his power. It's not clear to me how involved were the Baathist insurgents. Will his death turn off the foreign money? I kind of doubt it. Before the most recent bloodletting stemming from the Mosque bombing, the Shiite radical Sadrists had made a political alliance with the Sunni political groups directed against Amercian influence. Zarqawi's death may resurrect this alliance, and create a potent armed political enemy to the U.S. military, uniting the Sadrist militia and the insurgent groups allied to the Sunni political parties. In any case, I will be very curious to see whether attacks attributed to the jihadi's weaken over the coming months.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#49)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:25:22 PM EST
    Out of curiousity, why hasn't the mafia been broken after decades of convictions? Taking the head off simply allows for others to rise. I am pleased that Zarqawi will not personally be responsible for any more innocent deaths, but it is naive to think it is a major blow. When we win the war on the mob, war on poverty, war on xmas, war on drugs etc, I will begin to believe we can win a war against a non governmental armed forces unit......

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#50)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:26:02 PM EST
    Chew, Albritton's been in Iraq for years during this war (tho now in Beirut for a spell), and has connections up the wazoo, and even HE is still hoping and wishing and guessing, but I always appreciate his backroom-deal kind of perspective. We shall see what comes. Yes we shall.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:27:00 PM EST
    That brown aint from dye either. Its just the overflow.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#52)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:27:14 PM EST
    Before the most recent bloodletting stemming from the Mosque bombing, the Shiite radical Sadrists had made a political alliance with the Sunni political groups directed against Amercian influence.
    question - do you think it will overcome the recent escalation in the level of civil war? I read that Iran was giving Sadr money and Saudis were helping the Sunnis. Where does that fit. It would seem on the surface at least that they would join forces, although I guess circumscribed groups might be willing to work togther. Its hard keeping track of all the players and their loyalities and motivations

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:27:25 PM EST
    what are some of BB'd characteristics 1. will tolerate no criticism of the leader. 2. if you disagree with BB or the the leader you hate your country 3. Will gladly give up personal freedoms to please the state and its leaders 4. has demonized the opposition such that they are terible foes. For him liberals and Muslims 5. he demonizes and dehumanizes islam and Muslims.
    You just described Ann Coulter the she-pundit!

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#54)
    by Patrick on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:28:36 PM EST
    JL, But they were weakened, each time, and they no longer have the power and influence they used to.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#55)
    by peacrevol on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:29:36 PM EST
    When we win the war on the mob, war on poverty, war on xmas, war on drugs etc, I will begin to believe we can win a war against a non governmental armed forces unit......
    That is an extremely good point.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:29:43 PM EST
    my recap on the posts ppj-i'm so happy, another dead mooslim, it only took thousands of innocent people dying, to finally get somebody(maybe) bb-Duh, ppj happy, so bb happy

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:31:09 PM EST
    P - I agree, but eradication and or defeat is out of the question. We have to come to terms with the appropriate definition of victory....

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#58)
    by Patrick on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:33:07 PM EST
    JL, Yes, I hold out no hope of complete victory, and never did. There will always be evil in this world. Which to me is reason enough never to be completely passive.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#59)
    by peacrevol on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:36:44 PM EST
    P - I agree, but eradication and or defeat is out of the question. We have to come to terms with the appropriate definition of victory....
    True, but is that bar ours to set in this case? I mean since the US in a way helped to cause escalating violence by going in to get Saddam, shouldnt we let the Iraqis say when enough is enough? They didnt ask us to go overthrow saddam, but we did. At that time we should have acknowledged the responsibilities that may come if we go destroy their government and allow a chaotic scene in which groups like al quaida can prosper. Maybe it'll all be worth it in the long run. To some maybe it's already worth it. But whose job should it be to set the benchmark of "victory". There is never a true "victor" in war.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:38:57 PM EST
    Hey BigUnit, real intelligent comment there.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:41:11 PM EST
    my my the bully is sensitive today

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:48:28 PM EST
    Peacerevol - I was not in favor of the war but am compelled to fall in line with Mr. Powell, we broke it, we must fix it. P - you and I have fought numerous times over the necessity of this war and I still stand firm (as I am sure you do) in my original stance. Perhaps it is only a PR problem inasmuch that we are not getting any semblance of a timeline relative to the Iraqis managing their own security or the fact that we were told by our gov't that we would form a democracy that would spread like wildfire in the ME. Truth is, the infighting and hatred amongst the various sects can only be addressed with diplomacy at this point. We have been killing Iraqis and insurgents for years and there is limited evidence of viable, proven progress. Victory cannot and will not be achieved militarily through force, yet peacekeeping only puts handcuffs on the soldiers and targets on their heads which is a miserable catch 22. As much as I hate this war, I want us to leave the country in equal or better shape than the condition it was in, and I just don't see progress indicative of the "you break it you fix it" mentality of the honorable Mr. Powell.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:52:57 PM EST
    I thought it summed it up pretty well. And remember a thousand Muslim women blown to bits still dont equal the abomination of a liberal politician not saving a drowning white woman 40 years ago.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:58:56 PM EST
    Dadler... So we're pathetic because we'd care if they missed and killed fifty innocent people? No..that's not what I said. You're pathetic because to all live for bad news...you relish in the fact that our military isn't perfect...and you care more about our enemies than our own soldiers. You KNOW that if this was a botched mission it would be getting much more airplay here on TL. Soccerdad... what are some of BB'd characteristics You don't know me... 1. - I'm not a Bush fan..he's done plenty wrong. 2. - You hate the country because of what you say,... not what I say. If the shoe fits! 3. - All the 'personal' freedoms you think you have given up are imaginary! 4. - The opposition (both libs & muslims) have demonized themselves! Open your eyes. 5. see comment #4

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:00:36 PM EST
    SD - Glad to see you too want to demonstrate your intelligence.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#66)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:13:47 PM EST
    I am a combat veteran just like my good friend Jim We'll stick together through thick and thin Happy Days are here again You love the enemy and hate your friends Why can't you thank me for the time I did I dropped some bombs, too not sure what I hit Happy Days are here again I love war it makes me grin Dead bodies delight me to no end You say your for peace What country were you born in Happy Days are here again Our Country is run by the left and liberals are the reason for the spot I'm in Bush makes mistakes but its because of libs Happy Days Are Here Again.......

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:16:13 PM EST
    "Hey BigUnit, real intelligent comment there." Well thank you Jimbo. Just like Bill O'Reilly, I have my own no spin zone. That's why all my posts are so full of integrity and honesty.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#68)
    by Zeno on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:28:04 PM EST
    Incredibly enough, some of Bush's apologists now say that al-Zarqawi's death in Iraq proves that Bush was right about the Al Qaeda-Iraq connection. An e-mail message from Move America Forward tries to make this ridiculous argument.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#69)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:33:09 PM EST
    You're pathetic because to all live for bad news...you relish in the fact that our military isn't perfect...and you care more about our enemies than our own soldiers. You KNOW that if this was a botched mission it would be getting much more airplay here on TL. BB, no one here LIVES for bad news, they simply don't agree with your version of good news. And saying someone cares about enemies more than soldiers is to deny that innocent Iraqis are JUST AS IMPORTANT as our soldiers, and deserve to survive just as much. Please check out that film I linked you to, "The Human Behavior Experiments", read up on it's subject, and you'll understand just fine what what a fallacy it is to say I relish that our soldiers aren't perfect.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:42:50 PM EST
    BU, and I might add, content free... et al - Well, the day draws to an end. Let us hope that we remember that winning is better than otherwise.... In the midst of all the analysis I was struck by how simple it all is. You kill'em until they get tired of getting killed. Peaches - In the slim case that your reference to "Jim" is about me, I must note that I neither agree or disagree with any references made about me. As for your poetry talent....how can I say this.... Don't quit your day job. ;-)

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#71)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:45:20 PM EST
    Really Jim, how did that whole Vietnam thingy end up? We killed a lot of them as I recall and my memory is failing me a bit, when was our victory celebration? I am still waiting for the entire ME to grasp democracy as you promised us 3 years ago.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:53:01 PM EST
    Forgive me if this has been repeated as Im pressed for time and half to come back later and read the rest. The Fox News Network reported that 17 heads were found near Zarqawi's hideout. Fox News Reported that a 500 lb was dropped on top of Zarqawi's hideout. Judging by these reports Bin Laden should be dead in between Oct 24,2006 and Oct 31,2006. Im still laughing about the 17 heads and the pristene shape Zarqawi's body is after having a 1/2 ton bomb dropped on top of him. Yeah they got fingerprints. Shock. Its expected. Selective Propoganda. The funniest part about it is Fox News Network Duly reporting it as if it's a Big Gain in Bush's Poll Numbers. Gee How Democratic of them. Bozo's.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#73)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:53:22 PM EST
    If we killed em all I think we'd win So says my friend whom you know as Jim so why don't we just nuke em then Happy Days are here again

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#74)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 03:09:48 PM EST
    You kill'em until they get tired of getting killed.
    PPJ is now channeling Rumsfeld.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#75)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 03:11:11 PM EST
    yeah BB yeah right. go sell it somewhere else I'm not buying.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#76)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 03:23:28 PM EST
    Chew2-
    Before the most recent bloodletting stemming from the Mosque bombing, the Shiite radical Sadrists had made a political alliance with the Sunni political groups directed against Amercian influence. Zarqawi's death may resurrect this alliance, and create a potent armed political enemy to the U.S. military,...
    al-Sadr said that he would kill al-Zarqawi in a second if he had the chance. Sadr has continued even after the Mosque bombing to align himself with the sunnis in Iraq. His men may have been behind much of the anti-sunni violence as they wear all black. al-sadr has not supported the alleged violence by his men. It is not out of the question that US troops are the ones wearing all black pinning the blame on al-Sadr. They really hate him and would love to see him destroyed. There still is an arrest warrant out on him.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#77)
    by chew2 on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 03:33:08 PM EST
    Daadler,
    Albritton's been in Iraq for years during this war ....but I always appreciate his backroom-deal kind of perspective.
    I've always appreciated his reporting also. But I question the backroom deal type of conspiracy reasoning, whether its Albriton's idea that the Baathist's turned Zarqawi in as part of a grand compromise or, Aaron's that Osama grew tired of him and fingered him.
    I think it's important to consider the possibility that the US military has been manipulated into doing Al Qaeda's dirty work for them.
    The Sunni Baathist insurgent groups are way too fragmented and divided to make it likely they fingered Zarqawi as a means to some grand compromise with the new government. And Al Qaeda has almost zero operational presence in Iraq. Maybe some disgruntled Sunni insurgent or group provided some intelligence, but it is unlikely part of any grand deal or conspiracy. But who knows?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 03:37:17 PM EST
    His face looks very intact for someone who was killed by two 500 pound bombs. The U.S. says they recovered a lot of documentary evidence that is leading them to others. So that wasn't destroyed either. Because this Administration has so little credibility and a history of distracting us with terror news when it is hurting politically, like now, I can't help but wonder if al-Zarqawi wasn't killed some time ago and they just decided to announce it today and tell us he was killed in yesterday's raid. Everyone hates al-Zarqawi, even the Iraqis, particularly because of the wedding bombings.
    I think that your suspicions are very likely to be accurate. He has been the lead player in the WH version of the war. Many had belived him dead a long time ago. Certainly most who are experts on Iraq believed him a marginal figure at best and a fiction that only served US propaganda efforts at worst. He does look very good after the 500lb bomb. Maybe he was using his Flash Gordon force field ring to keep from being crushed.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#79)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 03:44:50 PM EST
    One less reason for us to be there. Dadler, I haven't visited Albritton's site for awhile, but his perspective is compelling. I would hope that the US and AQ would both pack up and take the WOT back to the mountains of Afghanistan and let the Iraqis try to reform their country.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#80)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 03:45:02 PM EST
    et al - Well, the day draws to an end. Let us hope that we remember that winning is better than otherwise....
    And what metric do you use for winning?
    In the midst of all the analysis I was struck by how simple it all is.
    You kill'em until they get tired of getting killed.
    OK, that's worked so well so far, and the AQ part of the insurgency is minimal, so when Americans and iraqis deaths hold steady or increase I wonder whether this commenter will admit he was wrong? (OK I was joking about the last part;-)

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 04:07:52 PM EST
    Of course don't forget about the 17 heads found nearby. Sounds like Zarqawi was a member of the Lewis and Clark expedition or is a true believer in Cannibalism. Perhaps Zarqawi was a big fan of Jeffrey Dahmer as well. Seems to me someone who would leave 17 heads nearby was wanting to get caught. Only I wonder who gets the 25 million or so. I wonder if Bush would instruct Rumsfeld to go and talk with the families of the 17 heads found nearby. A cool 25 million and a patented Rumsy toothy grin. Oh why not have a feast.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#82)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 04:18:49 PM EST
    I guess if everyone says the 2nd biggest boogyman on the entire planet has been killed then it must be so. Sorry to seem like a wet blanket here but since when did the WH start telling us the honest truth. Yes, I know, with so much BS we all want to believe in something that the WH says, but reality does have a liberal bias and this story seems rather neoconservative to me.
    Zarqawi, the notorious shape-shifter who, according to grainy video evidence, was able to regenerate lost limbs, speak in completely different accents, alter the contours of his bone structure and also suffered an unfortunate binge-and-purge weight problem which caused him to change sizes with almost every appearance, was head of an organization that quite fortuitously dubbed itself "Al Qaeda in Iraq" just around the time that the Bush Administration began changing its pretext for the conquest from "eliminating Iraq's [non-existent] weapons of mass destruction" to "fighting terrorists over there so we don't have to fight them over here."
    snip
    After all, approximately 376 of his "top lieutenants" had been killed or captured by Coalition forces in the past three years, according to press reports, and some 5,997 lower-ranking "al Qaeda terrorists" have been killed in innumerable operations during that same period, according to Pentagon press releases
    link

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#83)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 04:44:34 PM EST
    Squeaky, How can I argue with you, my friend? Your point(s) is/are well taken.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#84)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 05:37:25 PM EST
    One less reason for us to be there.
    Right on and what were the other reasons again? Oh yeah they were all frauds, too. We have turned the corner, there is light at the end of the tunnel. But we can't leave til we've taken at least 58,000 US dead. By then some companies will have made enough money to afford to build a really BIG memorial wall. The real entertainment value here is watching my government showcasing snuff flicks again. Reminds one of the Hoover FBI back in the Depression days when they would have front page newspaper photos of bullet riddled mobsters lying in a pool of blood while a heroic G-Man posed with his finger poking through a bullet hole in the dead man's hat. More from Michael Berg: "George Bush is the one that invaded this country, George Bush is the one that destabilized it so that Zarqawi could get in, so that Zarqawi had a need to get in, to defend his region of the country from American invaders."

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#85)
    by John Mann on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 05:44:05 PM EST
    In the midst of all the analysis I was struck by how simple it all is.
    Well, when it comes to simple, Jim, you're the go-to guy around here.
    You kill'em until they get tired of getting killed.
    Wow. Have you shared this analysis with the White House? This war on terror thing could've been over a long time ago!

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#86)
    by Slado on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:42:52 PM EST
    Dadler, thanks for actually expressing an opinion that does not fall along party/partisan lines. I have had my thoughts challenged as a troll several times and thats why I always come back for more punishment. Of course this "could" be a big deal and those who oppose the war should just say..."I'm glad he's dead lets wait and see" instead of immediately trying to downplay the accomplishment or even more ridiculously denying it happened. What if we kill OBL in an airstrike tomorrow? I would imagine the same people who gripe about not getting him would say..."well he's only a figurehead". Good news is good news and bad news is bad news. There has been a lot of bad news out of Iraq over the last few months, I can admit that so why can't we for one day enjoy some good news and wait to see what type of news tomorrow's is? Also the two ministers where named today so the Iraqi government is formed. More good news. Lets wait and see what tomorrow and the next few months bring. I understand that some don't think we should have invaded Iraq but we did and we've been fighting for 3years. Whats wrong with hoping it all works out and admitting when something good happens?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:45:05 PM EST
    John Mann - Nope, it is confidential. BTW Glad to see you can make a comment without condemning Israel Ernesto - Tell Michael Berg for me how much I love him. Also tell him he needs to remember who it was who killed his son. And it wasn't George Bush. And Zarwawi isn't from Iraq, so he had no reason to be there... Unless, of course Saddam invited him... But then we all know there were no connections between Sadddam and terrorists. Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Unless... Sailor - I was beginning to think you had sailed off into the sunset.. Metric? One day at a time, dear boy. One day at a time. Jlvngstn - I never argue with anyone who pays a million dollars in taxes... Vietnam? We didn't kill enough. Peaches - You're getting better. Or shorter. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference. SD - Heck. Here I thought it was Patton.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#88)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:49:20 PM EST
    SD - Heck. Here I thought it was Patton.
    you wished, its a direct Rumsfeld quote. probably circulating among the other Muslim hating neocons

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#89)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:50:01 PM EST
    BTW you're still FOS

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:51:23 PM EST
    Squeaky--thanks for the link to Chris Floyd's post: LOL: "Zarqawi, or someone just like him. . ." Floyd reminds us of the importance of the TIMING of this kind of military propaganda: >>Oddly enough, Zarqawi first vaulted into the American consciousness just after the public exposure of earlier U.S. atrocities: the tortures at Abu Ghraib prison in the spring of 2004. With story after story of horrible abuse battering the Administration during an election year, Zarqawi, or someone just like him, suddenly appeared with a Grand Guignol production: the beheading of American civilian Nick Berg. (snip) >>Today's news has likewise knocked the new atrocity allegations off the front pages, to be replaced with heartening stories of how, as the New York Times reports, Zarqawi's death "appears to mark a major watershed in the war."

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#91)
    by John Mann on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:20:43 PM EST
    Sailor - I was beginning to think you had sailed off into the sunset.. Metric? One day at a time, dear boy. One day at a time. Jlvngstn - I never argue with anyone who pays a million dollars in taxes... Vietnam? We didn't kill enough. Peaches - You're getting better. Or shorter. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference.
    Jim, does it embarrass you at all when you read this stuff? Seriously, it should.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#92)
    by chew2 on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:27:35 PM EST
    Floyd reminds us of the importance of the TIMING of this kind of military propaganda:
    While the administration always hyped Zarqawi's importance, I think they played his death pretty straight. They learned of the attack Wed afternoon, but held off on the announcement until Thur morning until it could be confirmed. NYT
    White House officials said today that they decided to hold off from the obvious temptation to try to break into prime time television right away with the rare good news. Rather, they decided it would be best to keep the secret for as long as possible and allow it to be announced in Baghdad, along with the news that the government there had finally filled three key posts, the ministers of defense, interior and national security. Officials also decided to proceed carefully and not repeat mistakes of the past by referring to the killing as a turning point or an end to violence in Iraq, which is expected to, if anything, increase in coming days.
    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:10:50 PM EST
    Give Jim a week or so to find out that his chickensh*t hawk strategy of keep-killin-'em ('em being men, women, and children) isnt working and he'll be back to blaming the Left, the retired Generals, Michael Berg, and any other America-hater who didnt have anal cysts during Vietnam, for "emboldening the enemy" and keeping his knickers in a crusty bunch since 1968. And pokerchump, you can add me to your list of people not captivated with destablizing, $15 mil a day, messianic welfare states with their warmongering agents ensconced in our govt. You and they can KMA "till you get tired of it."

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:11:19 PM EST
    John Mann - Hey, two comments in a row in which you don't attack Israel. That must be a personal best. Got anything to say that doesn't blame Israel???? Based on results, I guess not.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:27:11 PM EST
    John Mann - Hey, two comments in a row in which you don't attack Israel. That must be a personal best.

    Got anything to say that doesn't blame Israel????

    I think that by your own count, he's done so twice, so your question is a non-sequitur, which is par for the course from the brainiac who brought us Spainish and Walamrt.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#96)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:43:26 PM EST
    Wars of occupation don't end when one side tires of dying. They end when the occupier goes home. The Afghanis didn't tire of dying, the Russians left. The Vietnamese didn't tire of dying, the French and the US left. And so on. We killed a real bad guy or an overrated bad guy depending on who you believe...I'm afraid history teaches us there is still no victory there. And don't forget the woman and the child, and all the other men, women, children. And all our fellow Americans being put through hell. I wouldn't do it for a hundred Saddams or Zarqawis. It's no victory, there's no purpose. Madness.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#97)
    by Aaron on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:04:02 PM EST
    Hey guys I'm prepared to squash Jim ethically and emotionally at the slightest provocation, but the TL kids won't let me dammit! I guess TL figures they might get sued when Jimmy, devastated by my scathing retorts, which unflinchingly peel back the layers of his tortured and twisted guilt ridden soul, revealing the frightened child who hides inside, and that will just be too much for Jim, causing him to reflexively leap out the nearest window in hopes of ending the pain that truth has brought him. Consequently I've been forced to tone down my rhetoric, and repress my instinct to go for the throat when I smell blood. Sometimes I think I take this blogging thing to seriously... nah. So sorry Jim, I guess you'll have to slog through another day of your miserable existence. Unless you'd like to reenlist, I hear they're taking people up into their 60s now. And I'll bet they'd just love to have you back. Perhaps you could even get your old Navy job back if you really wanted. But somehow I suspect you'll pick the Marines this time around. I can see you right now up there on the frontlines in your body armor, an M-16 in your hand, an Iraqi child at your feet. Go on Jim, make us all proud of you.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#98)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:04:21 PM EST
    ppj - Keep playin that card. Maybe you'll get someones attention eventually. Im already dying of shame because I forgot to send a check to those messianic settlers. I may be responsible for holding up The Rapture for 2 or 3 minutes. KMA in perpetuity.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#99)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:07:40 PM EST
    Aaron - You had me going the first two paragraphs, then you lost me. Dont be a tease.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#100)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:30:57 PM EST
    Tell Michael Berg for me how much I love him. Also tell him he needs to remember who it was who killed his son.
    Mr. Jim. Do you really believe that was Zarqawi who chopped off Nick Berg's Head. Zarqawi's body is almost identical to Dick Cheney's.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#101)
    by John Mann on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:48:34 PM EST
    Mr. Jim. Do you really believe that was Zarqawi who chopped off Nick Berg's Head. Zarqawi's body is almost identical to Dick Cheney's.
    Couldn't have been Cheney.. he would have shot him in the face.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#102)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:52:26 PM EST
    Which one of these Zarqawis had tattoos and a prosthesis? Bottom is Zarqawi's body after two 500 lb. bombs were dropped on the safe house-- photo was neatly matted and framed with gold leaf (obviously done by a 24-hour Baghdad version of Kinko's).
    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#103)
    by Andreas on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:13:56 PM EST
    The WSWS on Zarqawi:
    Zarqawi [...] was one of those shadowy figures, well known to US intelligence, whose real allegiance at any given time is difficult to pin down. A fanatical Sunni Muslim fundamentalist, he represented an extremely reactionary element within Iraq. To the extent that he was involved in the numerous atrocities laid at his feet by Washington, his role was to undermine the Iraqi resistance and incite sectarian civil war between the Sunnis and Shiites. ... ... actions attributed to Zarqawi at key points gave a boost to US interests. In February of 2004, amid signs that the Shiite population was on the verge of joining the armed resistance being fought mainly in Sunni areas, a public letter, allegedly authored by Zarqawi, called for Sunnis to provoke a civil war with the Shiites. Several weeks later, suicide bombings at Shiite mosques in Karbala and Baghdad were blamed on what the US called the "Zarqawi network." In May of 2004, shortly after the publication of gruesome photos of torture at Abu Ghraib, American businessman Nicholas Berg was kidnapped in Iraq and, according to the US, personally decapitated by Zarqawi. Berg had been held and questioned by the US military for 13 days before he was released and, shortly thereafter, kidnapped by those who subsequently killed him. The murky circumstances of this crime, and the role of American authorities, have never been explained. When such atrocities failed either to stem the Iraqi resistance or halt the growth of antiwar sentiment within the US, and Washington grew desperate to install a government in Baghdad with some semblance of authority and stability, Zarqawi's actions came increasingly to be seen as an obstacle to American requirements.
    The Bush administration and the killing of Zarqawi By Barry Grey, 9 June 2006

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:29:30 AM EST
    Wars of occupation don't end when one side tires of dying. They end when the occupier goes home. The Afghanis didn't tire of dying, the Russians left. The Vietnamese didn't tire of dying, the French and the US left. And so on.
    and so on and so on. kinda like in germany in WWI, and germany again in WW2, and Japan in WWII, Oh, and Iraq in 1991. should I keep going?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#105)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 03:54:52 AM EST
    If it were Sunnis who turned Zarqawi in as many are suggesting does Bush get to make a $25million contribution to the insurgency?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#106)
    by roger on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 04:14:17 AM EST
    Z was ID'ed by tattoos? Interesting, tattoos are forbidden by Islam!

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#107)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 05:18:17 AM EST
    As Chris Floyd writes:
    Zarqawi, the notorious shape-shifter who, according to grainy video evidence, was able to regenerate lost limbs, speak in completely different accents, alter the contours of his bone structure and also suffered an unfortunate binge-and-purge weight problem which caused him to change sizes with almost every appearance,.....


    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#108)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 05:43:22 AM EST
    Jim, for a guy who shoots his mouth off about how he had a "secretary" for many years and how successful he was, it surprises me that you don't pay a million a year in taxes. I do not have a secretary, yet it would appear that my taxes outpace yours, how is that possible? Only really wealthy who have great tax shelters have secretaries? The question stands Jim, where is the surge of nations standing in the "get democracy here" lines? Also, heading to Vegas in two weeks, can you recommend any place where I can get into a holdem game that won't last 2 days?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#109)
    by roger on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 05:49:39 AM EST
    Also interesting how Zarqawi is killed right after two "Hail Mary" right wing bills get shot down. You can tell an election is coming every time that we "win" in Iraq

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#110)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 05:50:31 AM EST
    Oh yeah, I prefer texas, no limit, can't play omaha to save my life.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#111)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:12:13 AM EST
    The cover of today's Daily News has a corpse on the cover. I had hoped we were better than that...guess not.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#112)
    by Sailor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:29:19 AM EST
    Metric? One day at a time, dear boy. One day at a time.
    IOW, there is no standard for winning. One day at a time is not a plan, it is a 12 step program.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#113)
    by John Mann on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:47:41 AM EST
    IOW, there is no standard for winning. One day at a time is not a plan, it is a 12 step program.
    Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over the insurgency and that our war had become unwinnable.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#114)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 06:55:41 AM EST
    Nicely done John Mann............

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#115)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:03:16 AM EST
    Fox News just reported that Zarqawi was still alive after the bomb strikes but died later. Can't wait to here what his last speech was. Up in the top corner it said courtesy of the DOD.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#116)
    by Edger on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:09:34 AM EST
    Step 10 will present a bit of a challenge for bush...

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#117)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:11:27 AM EST
    Geez. Am I the only one (well, except for Keith Olberman, last night, who hinted at it but didn't say so outright) who is puzzled by how

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#118)
    by peacrevol on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:15:00 AM EST
    Interesting, tattoos are forbidden by Islam!
    Abu Musab al-Zarqawi went from tattooed street thug and failed video store clerk to the world's second-most-wanted terrorist - a man who slaughtered thousands and helped bring Iraq to the brink of civil war. -- nydailynews.com As far as his body being in good shape, it can happen that you are severely injured and your face not be mangled. But apparently he was even still alive when iraqi police showed up.
    "We did in fact see him alive," Caldwell said. "There was some sort of movement he had on the stretcher and he did die a short time later. There was confirmation from the Iraqi police that he was found alive."
    here's the link

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#119)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:15:40 AM EST
    Damn, clicked the wrong damn button. So, am I the only one (well, except for Keith Olberman, last night, who hinted at it but didn't say so outright) who is puzzled by how the U.S. could have dropped two 500-lb bombs on a safehouse that was instantly reduced to a pile of pulverized rubble and still find "Zarqhawi"'s body intact, to the point where his face was barely scratched???? Not one reporter has asked about this? This has surprised nobody? Has everyone lost their effin' minds?????

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#120)
    by peacrevol on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:15:58 AM EST
    oh sorry...here's a link to nydailynews if you want that.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#121)
    by peacrevol on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:21:53 AM EST
    chillax freakedoutneighbor, that really shouldnt surprise you that much...in that sort of situation, there are a lot of injuries that one could sustain that would kill and leave the body and face intact. and from what we saw, the back of his head may not even be there to be honest with you. and since he was still alive when iraqi police showed up, it stands to reason that he wasnt torn to bits. It's very possible that he wasnt even injured by the blast but had a large piece of debris fall on him and crush his back or something like that. But anyway, i find it a tad bit alarming that you're not satisfied that he's dead b/c his body's not mutilated enough for you. that seems disturbing to me. dead is dead.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#122)
    by roger on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:25:07 AM EST
    Thanks Peace, I thought that was strange

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#123)
    by peacrevol on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:31:06 AM EST
    Thanks Peace, I thought that was strange
    no prob rog....did you read the story in the new york daily news? to hear them tell it, he was just an all around nasty dude from day one.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:38:20 AM EST
    Jlvngstn writes:
    I do not have a secretary, yet it would appear that my taxes outpace yours, how is that possible?
    Would you like the number of my tax guy?? And I never said I was rich, but I did have a fair amount of success. I would think you can understand the difference. As for a secretary, that was Dark Avenger I was trying to hire. In the real world they were "Executive Assistants." ;-) Re Vegas - Nope. Why not play in the Commerce in CA?? It has a helo pad on the roof. You can shuttle back and forth. (Rich people can do things like that.) They have some good NL, plus some 80-160, 150-300. I have many bad habits, Omaha is not one of them. On the more serious side, I would think the Belagio and Mirage should have plenty of bang-bang action ring games, which is the attraction of many players. Of course the thing has become so big it may one day wind up in the Convention Center.
    The question stands Jim, where is the surge of nations standing in the "get democracy here" lines?
    Isn't the real question, where is the surge of dictators and kings that want to give up power and be hung from a lamp post? The question should need no answer. Sailor - Once the strategy is put in place and the battle started, it is pretty much one day at a time. (And no, I'm not saying you don't change, just that you don't do it every thirty seconds.) John Mann - The trend continues. Wow. But you still have 30 or 40 to go break even. Aaron - Sweetie. Don't be so mean. Can't we all just get along? No? Sigh.... Dark Avenger? Did you miss this? Click on this link and read 12:51PM comment. Link

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#125)
    by Jo on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:43:48 AM EST
    One less reason for us to be there.
    Right on and what were the other reasons again?
    There are 70 million reasons for us to be there, and once we've snuffed them all out, we can go home.
    You kill'em until they get tired of getting killed.
    Heck. Here I thought it was Patton.
    I believe this was actually first seen scrawled on the side of a fallafal stand and was referring to repelling the American invaders; but it isn't correct. No matter how many are killed there will always be another to take his place. For when you truly believe in what you are fighting for, the death of the man next to you does not make you weaker, it makes you stronger and more resolute to destroy the enemy. It is the enemy who must be made to pay, and with the pride of the prior generations, and the convictions of unwavering religous belief, those who try to force themselves on others will be punished into submission. The enemy will fail because they do not have the moral high-ground. God is not with them, their ways are inferior, and their insolence and arrogance shall lead them into destruction! To sum up: "Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#126)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 07:59:27 AM EST
    But anyway, i find it a tad bit alarming that you're not satisfied that he's dead b/c his body's not mutilated enough for you. that seems disturbing to me. dead is dead.
    Peace Revolution, Interesting monikor and I must add that the dichotomy does seem to match your apparent ideology and backgorund from what AI have been able to gather so far. Peace is a worthy goal but as John Lennon so famously put it... You say you want a revolution well, you know.... The issue is not that the skeptics don't believe that he is dead. The issue is that the timing of his death and the way it was portrayed provides us skeptics with another reason to doubt the truth of the entire Zarqawi scenario. It seems to made for TV (Remember Jessica Lynch). This whole war has been offered up under too many falsehoods. A 500 lb bomb that leveled this farmhouse seems unlikely to have left the face of Zarqawi in such good condition. But, it is possible, since we also are to believe that now reports are coming out that he was alive when Iraqi police arrived at the scene. So, perhaps a 500 lb bomb sent a busted Zarqawi's back from a falling piece of concrete and left his face intact and him breathing for a little while after--just maybe so. However, it is one more lucky coincidence arriving just on time for this administration. Sure, he's dead. But, some of us aren't sure if he was the villain the US made him out to be or if he was that important to the insurgency. We didn't think the Decapitation video of Nicholas Berg was real if you remember either--and our suspicians arose when we learned he had been in US custody beforehand...hmmm. Of course, we are all kooks... I'll give you that. But withhold your judgement for a few more months. Just wait until the news comes out in late September or October before the elections. One more big splash to get our patriotic fervor all riled up. Then, see if you still think we are kooks.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#127)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:02:11 AM EST
    PPJ - Nah, I don't want to call your tax guy any more than you want to call mine, any time I can take a shot at ya you have to know that I will take it. I have said it many times and will say it again, you irritate the hell out of me but I cannot imagine this site without you. As for Vegas, the best way to retain your money is not to go. I also have 4 college tuitions to pay for as well as monthly support for my mother. I am not in the disposable income category. That said, my budget is 2500 for gambling for 2 days and only prefer no limit. Are the tables up and down like blackjack or do you have to play 20 hands? I don't want to sit at a table with frequent come and go traffic but don't want to play in a 2 day tourney. I haven't been to vegas in years and fully expect to get schooled by the local pros but want to try it nonetheless. a 150/300 table would have me poolside after a couple of hours...... I don't know what this means "Mirage should have plenty of bang-bang action ring games" Is that a table where people can come and go as they please?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#128)
    by Edger on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:08:44 AM EST
    Peaches: Just wait until the news comes out in late September or October before the elections. One more big splash to get our patriotic fervor all riled up. Then, see if you still think we are kooks.
    Washington will strike Iranian nuclear installations, probably before the end of 2006...
    ...
    The tragedy will proceed more or less as follows.
    ...
    Both Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Foreign Minister Mottaki sincerely believe that a compromise is in their mutual interest, and have every hope of reaching such a compromise. Nonetheless they will fail, just as the diplomats of Europe failed to prevent war in July 1914 despite the near-universal conviction that war could and should be avoided at all costs. Asia Times Online/Middle East, June 06/06


    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#129)
    by dutchfox on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:14:00 AM EST
    BBC: Zarqawi 'survived initial strike'

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#130)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:54:51 AM EST
    did you read the story in the new york daily news? to hear them tell it, he was just an all around nasty dude from day one. People like this would never rise to such prominence if it were not for the racist, imperialist policies of the US. AQ and AQ in Iraq only get support because otherwise unaggressive people are fed up with the violent and non violent interference of our government into their sovereign affairs.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#131)
    by peacrevol on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:59:18 AM EST
    Peaches, I understand how it could seem shady that they're catching him with the "elections just around the corner" but in the US, elections are always just around the corner. So I really dont buy into the whole timing argument. However, I do wonder how important al-Zarqawi really was to AQ. From the latest things I've read, it seems as though he has lost most of his influence when bin Laden scolded him for cutting off heads on video tape or at least for taking credit for it. That, it seems to me, is more important b/c we should be trying to understand AQ's next move Knowing how important al-Zarqawi was to their cause is a good starting point for figuring out their strategy so that we can find ways to hinder their progress. And the publicity of his death may be good for us in that would be AQ leaders might see that and decide they dont want to follow in his footsteps. IMO, this guy needed to be brought to justice in one way or another, and no matter how you look at it, his death saved a lot of lives, maybe even yours and mine. So...whatever the timing, and whatever his connections to AQ, he's gone and I'm glad.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#132)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 08:59:34 AM EST
    Never said he's not dead But what makes everyone so sure he was killed by that hit when the Pentagon and WH say he was? What if Mr. Zarqhawi has been dead for a while, "sold" by a fellow traveller in Al-Quaeda (who seem to have wanted rid of him for some time), pictures of the corpse duly taken and then "kept in the bank" until a propitious moment, say until just before the '06 elections, but as Bushie's numbers keep falling through the floor,they just decided to move up the schedule a little? Why should that seem far-fetched to anyone, given that these people "black-opsed" the country into war inb the first place, and did so just in time to win the '02 elections? Why are people so quick to believe anything the administration puts out there, as long as it's sensational enough? Beats me, that's for sure.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#133)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:04:06 AM EST
    For a view of OBL's and AQ's motivations see Bin Laden's jihadi spring by Michael Scheuer who served in the CIA for 22 years before resigning in 2004. He served as the chief of the bin Laden unit at the Counterterrorist Center from 1996 to 1999.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#134)
    by peacrevol on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:13:53 AM EST
    He served as the chief of the bin Laden unit at the Counterterrorist Center from 1996 to 1999.
    There was a bin Laden unit? Wow
    What if Mr. Zarqhawi has been dead for a while, "sold" by a fellow traveller in Al-Quaeda (who seem to have wanted rid of him for some time), pictures of the corpse duly taken and then "kept in the bank" until a propitious moment, say until just before the '06 elections, but as Bushie's numbers keep falling through the floor,they just decided to move up the schedule a little?
    yeah that would be shady, but i dont buy it b/c it seems pretty unlikely. It's hard to keep a corps for any length of time without it turning all different colors, even if you keep it cold it'll be discolored and nasty looking. But to be honest, even if the "timing theory", for lack of a more descriptive term, is true, I'm cool with it I guess. The guy needed to be gone...now he's gone. And what's one more lie from the govt?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#135)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:17:20 AM EST
    Of course, we are all kooks... I'll give you that. But withhold your judgement for a few more months. Just wait until the news comes out in late September or October before the elections. One more big splash to get our patriotic fervor all riled up. Then, see if you still think we are kooks.
    I just can't help but laugh my tale off everytime Fox News is on. I must be koko for constantly referencing them as a source.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#136)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:29:04 AM EST
    Juan Cole reports:
    Al-Zaman adds, that sources close to the Sunni Arab resistance movements, among the the (neo-Baathist) Army of Islam and the Brigads of the 1920 Revolution and the Army of Mujahidin said that Zarqawi's organization, which had announced open war on the Shiites of Iraq, had distorted the motives of the Resistance and harmed its potiential.
    snip
    The resistance movements appear to hope that with him out of the way [al-Zarqawi ], a Sunni-Shiite joint resistance to US presence might become more plausible. Al-Hayat says that they pledged "to intensify their operations during the coming phase against the American forces, as a way of demonstrating the true weight of al-Qaeda." (I.e., the indigenous Iraqi movements are saying that Zarqawi's group is not that important, and they will show who has really been doing the fighting.)
    Juan Cole

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#138)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 10:05:56 AM EST
    If you look at the report of Cole, you can understand why al-Zarqawi was so important for garnering support for the Iraq war. Blown way out of proportion, his existence justified, for some, continued presence in Iraq. Now that he has been pulled from the WH narrative it is clear that we are fighting a war with the Iraqi people and not itinerant terrorists. But I for one never underestimate Rove. We can surely expect some kind of replacement for al-Zarqawi, sooner than later. It could come in the form of a terror attack on US soil or some new development in Iraq. Clearly the script has been written, as they wouldn't ever pull the star player out of the game mid season without something else up their sleeve. Stay tuned, Fox has exclusive rights on this one.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#139)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 10:17:23 AM EST
    I never said wait for the DNA tests, I was questioning why we needed them at all and the timing. This story stinks to high heaven and people are crowing about something that will not change the atrocities that we have committed in our pursuit of...whatever it is. Nobody knows anymore since the story keeps changing. Now he was alive after the bombing, what a load of crap.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#140)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 10:55:46 AM EST
    pooty-pants Jim, I only saw the usual worthless links, insults, foaming at the mouth in the link you directed to my attention, so what else is new?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#141)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:54:43 PM EST
    Peacrevol wrote:
    It's hard to keep a corps for any length of time without it turning all different colors, even if you keep it cold it'll be discolored and nasty looking.
    Who's talking about keeping the corpse for any length of time? All they had to do was take pictures, fingerprints, DNA samples etc. and then dump the corpse in the "safehouse" before they bombed it.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#142)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:56:16 PM EST
    Come to think of it, once they had the pix etc., they could have disposed of the body anywhere, at any time.

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#143)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:28:49 PM EST
    kinda like in germany in WWI, and germany again in WW2, and Japan in WWII, Oh, and Iraq in 1991. should I keep going?
    Yeah, keep going until you find a country that didn't launch the war of aggression. In this current case, if I may be impolite enough to point out, we are playing the role of Germany I and II, Japan, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Not to mention the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and the US/French in Vietnam. Should I keep going?

    Re: U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death (none / 0) (#144)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 02:41:50 PM EST
    Tell Michael Berg for me how much I love him. Also tell him he needs to remember who it was who killed his son.
    Why don't you tell him? I'm sure he would love to hear your take on things.
    And Zarwawi isn't from Iraq, so he had no reason to be there...
    So I guess Halliburton and half the U.S. military hail from Iraq?
    But then we all know there were no connections between Sadddam and terrorists. Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Unless...
    That never stopped Reagan and Bush from arming him before 1991 did it?
    Vietnam? We didn't kill enough.
    58,000 US dead isn't enough for you. Too bad George, Dick and yourself had "other priorities" or you could have contributed to the total. Well it's never too late cuz we'll make sure to stick around Iraq until we have 100,000 KIA. That way Halliburton can be given the contract to build a bigger and better memorial wall on the mall.

    U.S. Military Confirms al-Zarqawi 's Death | 143 comments (143 topical)