by all accounts, the cancellation of the (I know it is an unfortunate term, but it is a term for group counselling) group grope was at the insistence of the players' parents, not attorneys. The majority of them had not even retained counsel, at that point.

"Kim is not stupid"

And how would you know this?

Can we expect court appearances by Roberts in school uniforms with a short plaid skirt and white knee-high socks and patent-leather shoes?

"This young kid wants to go to school in the fall."

Congratulations to every american that hangs up on telemarketers, you are definitely not stupid.

Roberts waited for approximately 30 minutes for the other dancer to arrive and during that time she observed some of the young men relieving themselves outside. "There was plenty of pissing off the porch," she says.

First off, it was the lawyer who offered the excuse.

How pathetically lame an excuse is that for the athlete scholars to have used their own racial epithets? This is some of the worst PR I have ever seen defense attorneys generate for their clients.

The next time IMHO, PB, Lora or any of the defenders of the AV's version of reality that night mentions the racial epithet about the "cotton shirt" remember that Roberts cast the first racist remark that night.

It looks like it was not a big deal for these players that the bathroom was locked for sometime during the allaged rape or dancers locking themselves inside.

And so after Nifong took their statements and reviewed their sexual histories, he had them take IQ tests before he asked for indictments?

Seems to me that ignorant skank hos should have justice under the law, too.

How likely is it that a *prostitute* would be reduced to hysteria by shame and guilt because she was dicked without her consent?

By the way, with your use of phrase "ignorant skank ho" in defense of Roberts and the AV, does this mean that it's okay for people who don't find the AV's version of events to be credible, or who view Roberts as an unreliable manipulative convicted embezzler, to use the phrase "ignorant skank ho"? That is, do you own the phrase or do you share it?

imho: the defense was adamant, and I think it is a telling point, that the "sample" was NOT under the nail. Life or death struggle (according to the search warrant affadavit) and all the DNA that can be found is on one nail?

Chesire conceded Friday that the results show that genetic material from beneath a plastic fingernail recovered from a garbage can at the scene of the alleged crime has "some characteristics'' of "one or two'' players' DNA, but that none of the tests show any conclusive matches. He acknowledged that the report names a third player, but declined to identify that player.

A 'fair' system would acknowledge the suffering of the victims -- who went to this drunken LaCrosse party, were slobbered on and insulted by the players, and probably hit-on.

Question: Does anyone have any thoughts as to the cases Nifong may be neglecting in favor of prosecuting and investigating this one?

Roberts tells Bissinger she could sense the hesitation in the young men milling about when the second dancer, who is black, arrived. The person who had told her that a white dancer had been requested "expressed in some way that they might not be happy" with the second dancer, says Roberts. "I can't remember how he put it or what way he said it, but I said to him, 'Well, they're going to have to make a decision and make it now.'

The next time IMHO, PB, Lora or any of the defenders of the AV's version of reality that night mentions the racial epithet about the "cotton shirt" remember that Roberts cast the first racist remark that night.

Just moments after she and another exotic dancer started to perform, she said, men in the house started barking racial slurs. The two women, both black, stopped dancing.

The woman said she and another dancer sent by a second escort service stopped dancing because several men at the party yelled a racial slur. In a court document used to obtain DNA samples from lacrosse team members, the woman said one man in the room threatened to sexually assault her with a broom handle.

In my opinion you, Bob, couldn't go lower than you all ready have.

I neither said nor implied that raping a prostitute is OK.

My apologies to all americans who have hung up on telemarketers. If you want to prove you are not stupid, call a lawyer and hang up on them. I have it on great authority that hanging up on an attorney will permanently place you in the non stupid category.

As the national media seized on the story, Roberts called James "Butch" Williams Jr., who told her he represented a player and couldn't advise or represent her. When Williams asked whether she thought a rape occurred that night, Roberts said no. When Williams asked her to give a sworn statement, Roberts said she would sleep on it.

Several days of discussion ended when Williams brought up pictures taken of the dancers at the party, Roberts said.

"He kept mentioning my statement and the pictures in the same breath," Roberts said. "What are you trying to say, Butch? Are you trying to say if I don't sign my statement there will be pictures? And that's when I said, 'You have the opportunity to tear me apart in court,' and that's when he said, 'I can tear you apart right now.' "

Roberts said she told Williams she'd call police and hung up.

"That did not occur," Williams said. "Never. My dealings were straightforward with her. She got upset about the pictures and totally shut down."

I remember there were allot of av supporters here that had the conjecture that the white players hired black strippers specifically because they liked demeaning black women and thought they could get away with raping a black stripper. Her statement kind of blows that out of the water, huh?

She was initially told that the boys inside were members of the Duke track and baseball teams--she later learned that they played lacrosse.

When Williams asked whether she thought a rape occurred that night, Roberts said no. When Williams asked her to give a sworn statement, Roberts said she would sleep on it.

Hey, maybe you were talking in jest when you were insulting me. Ha ha ha.

Roberts said "no". Is it stupid to not speak your conscience? Or is it stupid to try and get a book deal because you were the "other stripper" that night. Being that no book deal has arrived yet, I will leave that up to the people taking calls from telemarketers.

In my opinion you, Bob, couldn't go lower than you all ready have.

imho: the defense was adamant, and I think it is a telling point, that the "sample" was NOT under the nail. Life or death struggle (according to the search warrant affadavit) and all the DNA that can be found is on one nail?

Additionally, It is interesting that players lied to dancers to convince them to perform, saying it is a baseball and track team not lacrosse. They were trying to make dancers believe that there was a diverse group of people inside not just white players.

How do you know that? It seems pretty likely to me that the team (which had received warnings about their conduct in the past) was simply trying to keep its identity a secret while hosting a party the Duke administration would obviously not approve of.

Chesire conceded Friday that the results show that genetic material from beneath a plastic fingernail recovered from a garbage can at the scene of the alleged crime has "some characteristics'' of "one or two'' players' DNA, but that none of the tests show any conclusive matches.

In addition, DNA Security discovered tissue "consistent" with Evans' genetic structure on a fake acrylic fingernail retrieved from a trashcan at the Buchanan Boulevard house. (emphasis mine)

So, now you are comparing a prostitute being raped to someone being forced to "give it away for free?"

I think that "on" doesn't necessarily mean "on the top" of the fingernail, but it also doesn't explicitly say "underneath." Until someone releases the actual report where the sample was lifted from the nail, we will just have to agree to disagree (I know, party pooper).

Additionally, It is interesting that players lied to dancers to convince them to perform, saying it is a baseball and track team not lacrosse. They were trying to make dancers believe that there was a diverse group of people inside not just white players.

Cheshire looked like a deer in the headlights

Your logic escapes me. Why would the players have supposed, when they made the call, that a pair of professional strippers, one Hispanic and one white, would refuse to perform for a group unless it included more than one black guy? (There was one black guy on the lacrosse team.)

Additionally, It is interesting that players lied to dancers to convince them to perform, saying it is a baseball and track team not lacrosse. They were trying to make dancers believe that there was a diverse group of people inside not just white players.

Not comparing, *equating*. Raping a prostitute means forcing her to do something for free that she'd be perfectly willing to do for money -- and not very much money at that, in the case in question.

Raping a prostitute means forcing her to do something for free that she'd be perfectly willing to do for money ...

If she was forced, then it is rape. If she had sex willingly but did not get paid, I don't think it's rape. If you take a ride in a taxi and run out without paying, is it carjacking?

The two women chatted for a bit behind the house and had "a regular, normal conversation, nothing that set off any alarm bells in my head. We talked. We joked a little bit," Roberts says. "I told her I was new to this and didn't really know what I was doing. [The AV] told me that she danced at a club and was a little more experienced.

I wouldn't underestimate Kim or the accuser. If they were a couple of ignorant skank 'Ho's, this would have been over a long time ago.

By lying to a stripper? How could Duke Admin hear that from a stripper?

If they were so concerned about their troubled past, would they really host that party in that house where three Lacrosse captains living?

Posted by azbballfan June 7, 2006 12:53 PM wumhenry: [quote]Not comparing, *equating*. Raping a prostitute means forcing her to do something for free that she'd be perfectly willing to do for money -- and not very much money at that, in the case in question.[unquote] Some use ad hominems to describe others, some just let the words of others speak for their emotional intelligence.

if she had sex with Seligmann, Evans and Finnerty and they tried to stiff her (no pun intended), then they are just about the dumbest college atheletes ever. It'll be interesting if the case winds it's way down that path.

So principle over profit it sounds like to me. Funny how self-righteous you are about the men and conveniently ignore that.

If she was forced, then it is rape. If she had sex willingly but did not get paid, I don't think it's rape.

at this point, were i a defense atty., i would be salivating at the prospect of cross on ms. roberts, should DA nifong actually be foolish enough to call her as a witness. why he would is a mystery, since all she can do is place the AV & the accused in the house. she's already admitted she saw nothing nefarious occur, and that she doesn't think it did.

Do we know what was in the statement Butch was pressuring her to sign? No.

If she was forced, then it is rape. If she had sex willingly but did not get paid, I don't think it's rape. If you take a ride in a taxi and run out without paying, is it carjacking?

More precisely, if you're referring to your own tactic, you're relying on ad hominem innuendo in lieu of rebuttal on the merits. The favorite dodge of hack polemicists when at a loss for an argument.