How brutal a rape would it have to be for you to report it?

Yes [...] Assballfan

I found it's reference to popular media influences on the acceptance of arousal to be poignant. I especially liked the phrase 'post Clinton attitudes' used to describe kids who learned to laugh at those who try to use shame about one's sexual desires to control every aspect of their lives.

WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Aug. 1998) -- The Office of Independent Counsel has received a sample of President Bill Clinton's DNA, sources told CNN Wednesday.

Presumably, the sample will be compared with samples taken from a dress Monica Lewinsky reportedly told investigators contained evidence of a physical relationship with the president. The FBI's crime laboratory has the garment.

In an address televised to the nation Monday night, Clinton acknowledged a relationship with Lewinsky that he said was "not appropriate."

The one-sentence statement released by John Burness, Duke senior vice president for public affairs and government relations, contradicted reports that the university planned to announce the reinstatement of the lacrosse program next week.

"Media reports to the contrary, President [Richard] Brodhead has not yet made a decision on the future of men's lacrosse at Duke," Burness said in the statement.

Does an accusation of murder bring with it protection from publicity?

"Within a few minutes, I was told that she told the [doctor] that she had been raped? I returned? and asked her if she had or had not been raped. She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her into the bedroom."

The report also shows inconsistencies with the story from the second dancer, Kim Roberts. The alleged victim called her "Nikki" that night. According to the report, neither woman told police that Roberts also performed at the lacrosse team's party.

She said she and "Nikki" danced and "put on a show"...

Sleazy not to acknowledge my email or correct the article. Trashy because it makes the AV look more inconsistent, when in reality there was one inconsistency which we don't know why it was there. I also note that no attempt was made by the reporter to clarify it, either.

Did the AV not want to talk to the cop because he was questioning whether or not a rape occurred?

There's a professional lacross league?

Maybe if Kim had told him that the AV had been raped--but KIM SAID NO SUCH THING AT THE TIME.

What fits the evidence and AV's story now might be that some one or more players took her into a bathroom, possibly with her consent for cash, but she collapsed into a stupor and dissociated.

Just because the rapist isn't vicious enough to cause a tear in a woman's va*ina doesn't mean she wasn't forced, that she didn't struggle, that she wasn't overwhelmed, that she wasn't traumatized.

couldn't finish

Do we know whether Shelton believes the accuser? If he does, watch him be the next to receive a lay diagnosis.

Shelton has already received a lay diagnosis by those who believe the accuser: He is an insensitive cop, who didn't have the proper training and/or temperment to deal with a rape victim, and he thus misinterpreted what the AV said.

It may have been the manner in which he was questioning her. There is a recommended protocol for first responding officers which includes establishing a rapport and determining the emotional state of the victim. They are to avoid touching the victim without permission and maintaining the victim's personal space. They are to speak softly and gently and attempt to gain the victim's trust and confidence by showing understanding, patience and respect for personal dignity.

I think Sgt. Shelton could benefit from some sensitivity training.

A further problem with the rush to judgment. Much better to have questioned the Duke 46 one by one at the grand jury under oath.

When Sgt. Shelton first responded, nobody had even mentioned rape. How is he supposed to establish a rapport with somebody who's passed out - or pretending to be passed out? And how is he supposed to get her out of the car without touching her if she's apparently unconscious? And I can't find anywhere that she actually ever told him she'd been raped. I think his frustration at hearing several different versions of her story is understandable.

"Sexual assault is among the most traumatic experiences a person can have," said Dr. Ralph Snyderman, chancellor for health affairs and president and CEO of Duke University Health System.

"It is very important during a time of great emotional distress that each patient receives as much support as possible," said Mike Israel, vice president of DUHS and CEO of Duke University Hospital. "When these patients are seen in our emergency room, they can be assured of being treated by highly dedicated and trained personnel in a state-of-the-art facility."

The 14 Duke SANE nurses - enough so there is at least one on-site during all shifts - have or are in the process of receiving training for dealing with the special needs of sexual assault victims and collecting evidence. As part of their training, the nurses learn how to provide expert testimony for cases that make it to court.

"The SANE nurses are the cornerstone of the program," said Kathy Finch, nurse manager of the emergency department. "It takes a very special nurse to be able to deal with the emotional impact caused by such brutal acts. They are people who inspire trust, have a deep reserve of compassion and can conduct themselves objectively during a time of great anxiety."

"The designated room provides a more private space for victims of sexual assault, so they don't have to wait in the general waiting areas with other patients," Cunningham said. "It's a room dedicated completely to them, with patient comfort and confidentiality incorporated into same design. With the specially trained nurses and new equipment, we're hoping to be able to prosecute rape cases even more effectively."

At Krogers she told him nothing. That's not a version. She also didn't tell him where she lived .... What are the "several versions" of her story that frustrated him?

Maybe it wasn't exactly verbal versions of the story that frustrated him.

First he finds her unable to respond, apparently passed out in the car. Then he realizes she's faking (mouth-breathing).

Then she resists getting out of the car, and wont cooperate (wont walk, wont talk).

Then it turns into a claim of rape (he is told by third party). I can see where this would seem like "different versions" or a "changing story".

Point possibly taken on the AV being an escort. We have only sketchy reports of this.

. . . they're damn guilty for being the dumbest students ever.

i'm still at a loss as to exactly how one "establishes a rapport" with a purportedly unconscious person? does one talk softly and slowly in their ear? beats me, i've not a clue. neither do any of you.

Once he has heard she is a potential rape victim he should have called another officer to speak with her at the hospital. At that point, he should have known if she was raped, his previous interaction with her and his lack of rapport with her could hinder the reporting of the assault - which it did.

The thing about these kinds of cases I find interesting, and about the mental processes we each go through, is how we fill in the blanks [emphasis added]. We all have some presumption or theory of the case which we are trying to prove or disprove, and they're based on our own lives and usually have nothing to do with the cases themselves.

Turns into a rape claim from what?

he should have called another officer to speak with her at the hospital.

The only way all sides will ever be convinced that this case has been handled fairly is if someone other than Mike Nifong handles it. The defendants deserve that; the accuser deserves that; and most important, the people deserve that.

A successful prosecution doesn't have to mean that a conviction results. It means that the public is convinced that the case is being handled correctly, fairly, aggressively, but also judiciously. That simply doesn't exist now. Because of Nifong's early comments and subsequent silence, whatever he does now is suspect.

Durga will come in and make observations based on his experiences with race and racism in the U.S. Others will argue the case through a feminist lens.

The only way all sides will ever be convinced that this case has been handled fairly is if someone other than Mike Nifong handles it. The defendants deserve that; the accuser deserves that; and most important, the people deserve that.

az, the 46 need not, and shouldn't, do anything, absent a subpoena. why should they? let me repeat for those of you on drugs: the police and DA, in a criminal case, are not your friends. they are trying to find a party to arrest & indict, for whatever the crime is. it's what they do.

anyone who would willingly talk to the police or prosecutor, w/o their atty. present, will be paying collect phone bills from prison.

I don't think this editorial speaks to anybody but that small group of people who would feel joy today if Nifong suddenly, without comment dropped the case. I don't know whether there are a lot of people who feel that way, or very few, but I don't think anybody should concern themselves with pandering to that group.

In order to successfully investigate criminal complaints, police need the help of honest witnesses. So if you are a winess to a crime, whether it be a rape, or a false accusation of rape, or some combination of the two, it is your duty as a citizen to come forward at the earliest moment possible with your information. .... I am nothing but grateful that there are people willing to take action on the complaints filed by everyday citizens, and I consider it a constitutional obligation that those complaints be honestly addressed. That the Duke students view things otherwise is unfortunate for them, their school, and even for the sport of lacrosse

That presupposes, fer crissakes, that they have incriminating knowledge. And ignores the fact that one of the defendants voluntarily submitted to prolonged interrogation without an attorney present.

I'm no police sycophant, but I am nothing but grateful that there are people willing to take action on the complaints filed by everyday citizens, and I consider it a constitutional obligation that those complaints be honestly addressed. That the Duke students view things otherwise is unfortunate for them, their school, and even for the sport of lacrosse bizarrely enough. No respect.

Wow, PB: you didn't like me linking to one of the most liberal-minded of the talking heads? I admit; I am surprised.

Should anyone concern himself with pandering to people who would feel joy if the defendants suddenly confessed guilt?

That presupposes, fer crissakes, that they have incriminating knowledge. And ignores the fact that one of the defendants voluntarily submitted to prolonged interrogation without an attorney present.

you have no idea how the Duke students view this. You know they are exercising their constitutional rights to remain silent, and that's all you know. You can speculate with all the sanctimonious condescension you want to, but that's all it is. Speculation.

Turns into a rape claim from what?

From a "passed out drunk", or a "groped but not forced to have sex."

Maybe it wasn't exactly verbal versions of the story that frustrated him. First he finds her unable to respond, apparently passed out in the car. Then he realizes she's faking (mouth-breathing). Then she resists getting out of the car, and wont cooperate (wont walk, wont talk). Then it turns into a claim of rape (he is told by third party). I can see where this would seem like "different versions" or a "changing story".

he should have called another officer to speak with her at the hospital.

Shelton found out that she was claiming rape from another officer, so there was another officer involved. She never told Shelton she was raped. Plus, he already had reason to think she was not being honest (with regard to her incapacitation). I still say his reactions were understandable, or did you want him to have sensitivity training for dealing with passed-out drunk(s)-but-possibly-faking-it?

Just as some on this board want to explain the AV's reluctance to talk to Shelton as being a result of his attitude toward her, his perceived lack of sympathy, etc., can't one reason that the reason the Duke players did not cooperate is that they felt the same antipathy and hostility from the police and from Nifong?

There were, after all, threats by the DA that the guys who were at the party could be charged with obstruction of justice, aiding/abetting, and there could have been noise violation charges, and there was the underage drinking that all of the under 21 guys participated in.

Absolutely not. Got anyone in mind?

The fact remains, imho, Nifong could have compelled them to come in, but he did not. Do you have any theories as to why he would not, and did not, do as I suggested in my post?

Their silence clearly indicates a lack of decriminating evidence.

Nifong has tried repeatedly to talk to the players - their response: "Talk to my lawyer" Their lawyer's response: "Are you charging my client?"

The lawyers know that unless charges are brought for a crime, none of the players can be compelled to testify as to what happened.

Their silence clearly indicates a lack of decriminating evidence.

Revealing exculpatory evidence before the AV has testified on the record gives her a chance to tailor her story to avoid pitfalls.