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U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:05:52 PM EST
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Nabiha Nisaif Jassim's brother was racing her to the maternity hospital in Samarra, Iraq, about 60 miles north of Baghdad. U.S. troops fired on the car because it didn't stop at a roadblock and killed her and her about to be delivered child. Her fetus died too. Her female cousin also was killed. Jassim was 35.

U.S. version:

The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings.

Jassim's brother's account:

``I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped,'' he said. ``God take revenge on the Americans and those who brought them here. They have no regard for our lives.'' He said doctors tried but failed to save the baby after his sister was brought to the hospital.

This kind of "collateral damage" is no more acceptable than this continued war.

[hat tip Patriot Daily.]

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    U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman | 198 comments (198 topical)
    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:19:30 PM EST
    You can't run roadblocks when our troops are being blownup by car bombs.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#2)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:26:35 PM EST
    And you dont have to worry about roadblocks, troops being blown up by car bombs, and a daily mounting number of "collateral casualties" if you dont invade other countries.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#3)
    by cpinva on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:33:55 PM EST
    it's this kind of "collateral damage" that ultimately loses the "war" for us. of course, as jondee noted, had we not been there in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue. i'm not sure i blame the soldiers, or the civilians either, for that matter. i think both have been put in an untenable position.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#4)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:34:44 PM EST
    "God take revenge on the Americans and those who brought them here. They have no regard for our lives." Another hearts and minds convert. He'll probobly be getting his pilots license in a couple of years.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#5)
    by Al on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:41:21 PM EST
    Because you can't run roadblocks even if you're rushing to hospital, you get road bombs. Listen to the guy: "God take revenge on the Americans and those who brought them here." What part of this do the military not understand? If you are occupying a country, then *you* have to figure out how to avoid killing pregnant women. The rationale for killing civilians is always that the place is very dangerous, and the troops are getting attacked. Well, statistically it's much more dangerous for the civilians than for the troops. Civilians don't get to run around in armored vehicles, and shoot people at will just in case. They can't call in air support, or artillery. And the statistics show it: There are far more civilian casualties than military casualties.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#6)
    by Peaches on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:44:58 PM EST
    it's this kind of "collateral damage" that ultimately loses the "war" for us.
    and it is that kind of talk from lefties in the throes of spasms of self-hatred that gives hope to the terrorists, which will lead us to lose the war. ...at least according to old men in the early stages of dementia and senility.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#7)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:47:05 PM EST
    They have little wonk weasals that factor all those numbers in to determine whats "acceptable" and what isnt. As Lorca said "They gather in boardrooms and the universe isnt there." These are the people we've turned the country over to.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 31, 2006 at 01:04:53 PM EST
    There is really nothing that can be said here. The guy said he didn't see the road block. Hard to believe, but it makes no difference. My guess he was excited and wasn't paying attention. Again it makes no difference. It was an accident. What would help is if the Left would try and support the troops in matters such as this. That they won't is a foregone conclusion.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 01:12:24 PM EST
    i agree with TL: this atrocity is nothing but a microcosm of the criminality of Bush's unilateral war policy. for those of you who voted for Bush -- these atrocities are your party's legacy to human suffering and despair.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#10)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 01:13:29 PM EST
    Actually rumor has it that Leftists told him the coast was clear and to drive on ahead at fullspeed. I just need to get that Frontpage link working..

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 01:16:54 PM EST
    phi - Its just all part of that big, neocon omelet recipe. Break a few eggs and all that.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 01:17:43 PM EST
    George Bush Jr. will be forever linked with 911.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#13)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 01:28:43 PM EST
    "It was an accident" When you decide to go ahead and prosecute a war in full knowledge that thousands of these "accidents" are inevitable, its not an accident. Oh I know, its Bill Clintons fault. Somehow.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#14)
    by swingvote on Wed May 31, 2006 at 01:49:52 PM EST
    Absolutely predictable, and absolutely tragic, no doubt about it. As is the headline of the post.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 01:53:09 PM EST
    Wow. Such intelligent, reasoned responses from the right-wing readers of this site. You can't stand what's being done in your name by YOUR president, so you blame the left for it? typical thinking. How does all this killing of women and children go down with the fetus police? Is it okay to kill fetuses if they're in the bellies of enemy women we're trying to "help" toward democracy? Let's see some right-wing head explode over THAT. In the meantime, those of us who are daily sickened by this crap and the other outrages perpetrated on our country AND Iraq by the permanently moneyed class (who, of course, don't serve, nor do their fat-ass children), continue reading about it and thanking the press for bringing it to our attention.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Wed May 31, 2006 at 01:57:29 PM EST
    He'll probobly be getting his pilots license in a couple of years.
    Way to hit the nail jondee. Think the husband/father to be will be sympathetic to the cause of the extremists chanting "death to america". I sure would be. The never ending cycle of misery and death keeps on turning. The occupation has got to end, for the safety of the Iraqi people and the American people.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Wed May 31, 2006 at 01:58:59 PM EST
    As is the headline of the post.
    WTF - its a statement of fact. If they had said murdered you would have a quibble. They sure as hell didn't bring her flowers.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:00:41 PM EST
    Bottom line for all here is..... America = bad (aka - evil) Troops = killers (aka - automatically guilty) Bush = liar (aka - stupid) Right (conservatives) = wrong That about covers it...doesn't it? The troops should obviously let people run blockades & hope for the best? If they get blown up...well, so be it. At least no "innocent" people will die. (until terrorist blow them up that is) No need for any further debate is there! You guys have it all figured out.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#19)
    by swingvote on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:03:43 PM EST
    WTF, "Iraqi Pregnant Woman" sounds like a Bushism. "Pregnant Iraqi Woman" would be more in keeping with standard English grammar. Sorry of that was lost on you.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#20)
    by desertswine on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:05:31 PM EST
    You can make a hundred excuses for killing the innocent. But in the end they will be only that; excuses.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#21)
    by soccerdad on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:06:40 PM EST
    "Iraqi Pregnant Woman" sounds like a Bushism.
    only to you, nice weasel

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:13:13 PM EST
    B.B - Yeah we had it all "figured out" when we said not go ahead with this $10 billion a month effing blood bath.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#23)
    by soccerdad on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:20:42 PM EST
    It continually astounds me that the Bush supporters who believe in the WOT are not concerned about the effect of these kinds of incidents would have on their dream of establishing democracy, since losing hearts and minds acts against their goals. on a more serious note The fact that they couldn't care less tells us all we need to know about their true motives.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:25:53 PM EST
    B.B - Your faction isnt America. Nobody said the troops were "killers"; the geniuses behind your faction are a different story. Right = Wrong; right. And the Bush formulation should read: = stupid (aka:liar) C -

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#25)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:28:47 PM EST
    What would help is if the Left would try and support the troops in matters such as this. That they won't is a foregone conclusion Your answer is already here... You can't stand what's being done in your name by YOUR president, so you blame the left for it? This truly sums up the apologists' position. Nicely put, spacewriter.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#26)
    by DonS on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:34:35 PM EST
    "Support the troops" in each and every failed manuver. This effectively perpetuates the rhetorical dilemma: you can't criticize this barbaric invasion/occupation and the corrupt cabal that caused it without being a turncoat to the grunts on the group. BS . . of course. However, the wingers have their mindset in place, reinforcing the the culture of Peter Pan that's still insists Vietnam was "lost" when somehow it could have been "won". Only now its Iraq. Cheap little hollow sophmoric assertions that claim some rhetorical points in the face of the greatest moral depravity of a supposed CIVILIZED nation in the past several decades. Oh well, what's a few wasted eggs, or wasted Iraqis, for a burnt and poisonous omlette?

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#27)
    by swingvote on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:37:46 PM EST
    only to you, nice weasel SD, Is that really the best you have to offer? Denying an obvious grammatical error even exists on sheerly partisan grounds? How constructive! I guess it got boring wherever you were and you've come back to "putting up the dukes......with the cretins at TalkLeft"? Okay, whatever.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#28)
    by Aaron on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:39:01 PM EST
    Let see if I've got this straight, the US military, the most powerful force on the planet, invades another country and finding themselves unable to secure that country, adopt a shoot first and ask questions later policy, with the idea of saving the lives of American troops in mind, specifically at the expense of the indigenous population. Such policies are simply not acceptable, nor as an American (US citizen) will I ever accept this being done in my name. We've gone terribly wrong here people, and we're going to lose this war/occupation, just the way we lost Vietnam. We're going to lose because the people of Iraq as well as Muslims around the world are going to take up arms against us and fight to protect their home and family. They're going to fight to the last man woman and child, because we've given them little choice. Think about it, if your neighbors and family members were being killed on a daily basis by people who say they were there to protect you, but shoot people down whenever they make a move which can construe as threatening, threatening as defined by their rules, who would except that? Is there anyone who could accept this here in America? Having an occupying force tell you that it's necessary to slaughter a certain number of innocent people as SOP (standard operating security procedure) in order to maintain security In this position, who would not take up arms against those who tell you in a hundred different ways that your lives are not as valuable as mine, therefore I can kill you whenever I feel the least bit threatened, and you should be grateful for me having come to your country and killed you, so that you may experience true freedom. Every US citizen who voted for George W. Bush, and then voted for him again, is directly responsible for the tens of thousands of innocent deaths which have occurred in Iraq. And every US citizen who opposed and continues to opposes George W. Bush and the policies of the Bush administration is responsible as well for allowing this president to be reelected and continue this slaughter in our name. Nobody gets a pass on this one. Assuming of course that our elections were legitimate, something I'm no longer willing to concede, since when our president is a traitor and a war criminal, nothing and no one is safe any longer. And those of you who think that we've purchased some measure of security here in America as a result of the Bush administration's preemptive war in Iraq, have got some nightmare awakening coming to you not far down the road. When the bombs and the bullets fly in your neighborhood, perhaps you'll think back to my words, and think about these innocent Iraqis being killed every day. You may not be able to relate or genuinely sympathize with their situation at the moment, but one day you and your children may find yourselves completely empathetic to their predicament. God bless America, land of the free and home of the brave... who butcher the innocent and the unborn in the name of security.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#29)
    by Peaches on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:39:50 PM EST
    "Iraqi Pregnant Woman" sounds like a Bushism. "Pregnant Iraqi Woman" would be more in keeping with standard English grammar.
    Merely a question of style, JP, not standardization. Since both Iraqi and Pregnant are adjectives, the order of which precedes the other is a matter of taste. You and I might prefer the latter order, but there is no hard fast rule from standard english determining the correct order that I am aware of. However, you called, the headline tragic and compared it to the actual act of killing an Iraqi woman as if TL preferance for Iraqi before pregnant was as tragic as the shooting of the two woman and the loss of a fetus.
    Absolutely predictable, and absolutely tragic, no doubt about it. As is the headline of the post.
    WTF is right.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#30)
    by Al on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:41:34 PM EST
    It was an accident. What would help is if the Left would try and support the troops in matters such as this.
    An accident is when no one is responsible. The soldier did make a decision to shoot, albeit a very difficult one. The bulk of the responsibility lies with all the long chain of people who put him in that situation in the first place. I have sympathy for the soldier if, as I expect, he's freaking out over what he did right now. If he is at all human, he will need a lot of counselling and support in the future. It's up to American society to make sure that he gets that. If that's what you mean by supporting the troops, PPJ, I'm with you on that. But if what you mean is what I think you mean, that the actions of the military at all levels must be accepted and defended without question, then no, I totally disagree. My sympathy goes mostly to the dead woman and her child and her cousin, and the bereft father. They didn't get anybody's help, and I'm quite sure the US military will not lift a finger to help that dad get through a tragedy I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like, and I don't want to.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:44:38 PM EST
    JP - Find out anything about those free Girl Scout cookies Reid got last year?

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:59:36 PM EST
    If the wrongwingers would ever do follow instead of spin they'd find that it wasn't a roadblock, and that the US originally lied about the incident (SOP ... want links!?)
    The mother-to-be and her cousin were initially said by the US military to have been killed after their driver ignored repeated demands to stop while driving to a maternity hospital.
    But a brief statement by the Joint Co-ordination Centre said the women had been killed by mistake en route to maternity hospital. [...] The military said their car had entered a clearly marked area near coalition troops at an observation post but shots were fired "to disable the vehicle" after it failed to stop despite repeated signals. [...] TV footage showed the women's bodies wrapped in sheets and lying on stretchers outside the Samarra Hospital, while residents pointed to bullet holes in the windscreen of the car.
    Observation post, not bloackade or roadblock. You don't shoot bullets into a windshield, on the passenger side, to 'disable a vehicle.' You do it to kill the inhabitants. I'd think even the wrongwingers would have learned by now not to trust anything bushco says. god knows they've had to spin different directions many times before as more facts came out that proved them wrong.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 03:31:52 PM EST
    this is only helping people who hate america. i dont think the iraq war is a good thing. but you're not helping by highlighting things like this. and your headling suggested that they intentinally killed a pregnant woman. they ran past a roadblock. i am pregnatn now i think i would have a homebirth if i was in that kind of trouble. i would have a homebirth or i wuold leave iraq and try to sneak in the USA or another western country.all you are doing is inflaming people and asking for a nuclear attackon america and it will be justified by saying america is the land of baby killers. u shouldnt be doing this. just vote the politicians out who voted for this war or vote for no one. or leave america and move to canada if u are that outraged. but dont micromanage a war from your computer. what do u expect those young man to do. just hoope the car running over a roadblack is not a bomb.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 03:36:44 PM EST
    Posted by BB May 31, 2006 03:00 PM Bottom line for all here is..... America = bad (aka - evil) Troops = killers (aka - automatically guilty) Bush = liar (aka - stupid) Right (conservatives) = wrong That about covers it...doesn't it? BB finally got something right

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#35)
    by Aaron on Wed May 31, 2006 at 03:41:55 PM EST
    Personal note: I share files on a number of servers, video files from Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, and I've recently been banned from some servers whose owners say that I'm promoting "anti-American causes." Their action was in specific response to my posting of the video interview of the girl who survived the Haditha massacre. This seems to be the standard response by Bush supporters and the right, whenever they are confronted with atrocities they cannot refute. Censorship has become their weapon of choice. Apparently they believe that if the facts are too ugly and damning to their cause, such information must be repressed. I will continue speaking up for the truth and continue reminding people of the difference between right and wrong, regardless of the consequences. I will do this precisely because I am an American, and that's what Americans are supposed to do.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 03:52:32 PM EST
    I would imagine that when you're driving in Iraq and a bunch of people start shooting at your car, stopping is neither the first action to come to mind nor perhaps the wisest course of action in most cases. It seems there must be something wrong with the design of these checkpoints if people keep driving through them. When you have a product that's killing a lot of its users accidentally, that's an indication of a design flaw, and "user error" is not an excuse.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#37)
    by Sailor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 04:04:30 PM EST
    this is only helping people who hate america. i dont think the iraq war is a good thing. but you're not helping by highlighting things like this. and your headling suggested that they intentinally killed a pregnant woman. they ran past a roadblock.
    1) I really don't think iraqis read this blog, if only because they don't have electricity most of the time. 2) things like this have to be reported, especially since they are an ongoing pattern and not an isolated instance. 3) If you fire thru the passenger side of a windshield you are intentionally killing the passengers and you don't care who or in what condition they are. 4) IT WASN'T A ROADBLOCK!!! (see above.)
    i am pregnatn now i think i would have a homebirth if i was in that kind of trouble. i would have a homebirth or i wuold leave iraq and try to sneak in the USA or another western country.
    sneak into a country that lies 12 thousand miles away!? Homebirth when your husband is waiting for you at the hospital!?Which brings me to my final point: 5) Please, PLEASE don't have any more children. America really doesn't need any more illiterates. If you are against birth control I would suggest next time swallow the pearl necklace.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#38)
    by Patrick on Wed May 31, 2006 at 04:49:56 PM EST
    Sailor, tsk, tsk...Comment #5 was pretty harsh. Is it possible that poster learned English as a second language...? Perhaps as you claim in #1, Iraqis are not reading talkleft, but certainly those who speak the loudest, even if they are not in the majority can be heard the best, no? It's foolish to think that what passes for press and public opinion over here is ignored over there, IMO. As for #3, perhaps those weren't the only rounds fired at the car. Do you have the ROE's for the OP? I imagine warning shots or shooting to disable a vehicle could possibly be followed up relatively quickly with shots meant to stop a real or perceived threat, ie through the windshield. Just pointing out other possible scenarios.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#39)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed May 31, 2006 at 04:53:21 PM EST
    PPJ sez...
    There is really nothing that can be said here.
    Thanks for following that statement up with a couple more paragraphs full of the usual "nothing". some troll adds...
    "Pregnant Iraqi Woman" would be more in keeping with standard English grammar.
    Since you have nothing better to add... Would the correct present tense be "Dead Pregnant Iraqi Woman" or "Dead Iraqi Pregnant Woman"? Another person (?) sez...
    all you are doing is inflaming people and asking for a nuclear attackon america and it will be justified by saying america is the land of baby killers.
    Sorry for harping on the bad news. It's really too bad that it's no longer safe for news crews to go out and report on all the good things we are doing in Iraq, isn't it?

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed May 31, 2006 at 04:59:11 PM EST
    It's foolish to think that what passes for press and public opinion over here is ignored over there, IMO.
    Yeah let's all either shut up or cheerlead for the war. That will make all the opposition over there lay down their arms. Thanks Patrick, I didn't know the Andromeda Galaxy had the internet yet.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 06:00:46 PM EST
    Patrick, I agree with you about comment 5. (Not necessarily for the reasons you expounded, but just because the snipe was beneath me, I regretted it as soon as I hit post.) I disagree about comment #1, if they are reading perhaps it's better that they understand that not every American hates them. IRT Point 3 I'm willing to wait for more evidence, but OTOH, the military already lied about it and the military has shown that they will lie until actual video evidence, and US witnesses, proves them wrong. The driver said that "I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped," He's obviously upset, but I doubt whether the military will release pix of the bullet holes. Believe it or not, I hope I'm wrong.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#42)
    by Jo on Wed May 31, 2006 at 06:10:28 PM EST
    I think the pregnant Iraqi women are in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency. At some point the fetuses will get tired of getting killed.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Wed May 31, 2006 at 06:13:24 PM EST
    Patrick: It's foolish to think that what passes for press and public opinion over here is ignored over there, IMO. Patrick - I doubt very much that the average Iraqi pays any more attention to the press and public opinion here than they pay to the Iraqi media and news sources these days: Posted on Sun, May. 28, 2006 Iraqis respond to Haditha killings with silence By Nancy A. Youssef, Knight Ridder Newspapers
    BAGHDAD, Iraq - As one U.S. politician charged Sunday that U.S. Marines had murdered 24 Iraqi civilians last fall, and press reports seemed to support the claim, the story remained a non-starter in Iraq. ... didn't come up when Iraq's parliament met on Sunday. The talking heads on Iraqi television issued no new calls for a U.S. troop withdrawal, as often happens after U.S. forces are seen to have made big mistakes. Even local papers ran no stories about possible murder charges against some Marines allegedly involved in the Nov. 19 shootings.
    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Wed May 31, 2006 at 06:15:23 PM EST
    And before anyone gets brilliant and tries to spin that into meaning that the Iraqis don't care... go read the full article.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#45)
    by john horse on Wed May 31, 2006 at 06:19:40 PM EST
    What recourse do Iraqis have when American soldiers shoot their fellow Iraqi citizens? They are not allowed to conduct an investigation to determine if it was an "accident" or just cold blooded murder. They cannot try these Americans in their courts. Americans are not there because of the consent of those they govern. In relation to their American occupiers, they are not created equal. They are not endowed with certain inalienable rights, including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Occupation, unlike liberation, involves an unequal relationship characterized by repeated injuries and usurpations over the country being occupied. If we were the country being occupied, how would many of you feel about the occupiers?

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Wed May 31, 2006 at 06:34:17 PM EST
    Video of a young girl, Imam Walid, whose father and grandparents were killed Nov. 19, 2005 in Haditha by U.S. Marines who burst through their door. May 4, 2006: "Begin paying attention," Swindell urged, "to stories from Iraq like the very recent one about U.S. Marines killing a group of civilians near Baghdad. This is the next step in the Iraq war as frustration among our soldiers grows -- especially with multiple tours." May 31, 2006: U.S. Troops Kill Pregnant Woman in Iraq
    Either we start living up to our own ideals or the world will very soon compel us to do it. If, that is, they even think we're worth saving. More...
    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:02:12 PM EST
    Let's cut to the chase. The husband made a very bad decision. From the post:
    after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings.
    Our military did what they should have done. Shot the car up to stop it. No, I don't believe that "try to disable" stuff. They thought it was a car bomber and responded correctly. Do I feel for the husband? Yes. But sympathy and blame are two separate subjects. Now, as some of you like to remind us, this is a Left wing blog. No one would argue that point. I would argue though that home front morale is important, and has been for thousands of years during war time. Your inability to come together for a united front and support the troops involved in this simple straight forward issue without any self serving blame on "the war," Bush, etc, speaks for itself. For heaven's sake, don't some things transcend politics?

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#48)
    by Sailor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:08:47 PM EST
    The husband made a very bad decision.
    they say that reading comprehension is the first to go ...

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:18:13 PM EST
    Conservatives haven't the ability to feel empathy. You can't expect people that share a bigoted, myopic, and ethnocentric cultural viewpoint to care about an individual person from a culture or race they have learned to devalue as a whole. Incidentally, it shouldn't matter if it were a pregnant woman and her fetus that were killed any more than if it were an 18 year old male. There is no difference in degree of immorality. The soldiers don't know any better, they've been put into this situation by the evil doers here at home. Most of them are probably so busy trying to stay in one piece they don't have time to think about right and wrong. But see, Conservatives don't really care about them either (the soldiers). They may say they do, but they don't. Not really. They can't. It's part and parcel to their cultural viewpoint. If it weren't, rich and entitled people would be forced into the service to fight alongside those that make up our current military. You see, it's not only foreign-based races and cultures Conservatives have no sympathy for: there are plenty of races and cultures here at home they don't care about either.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#50)
    by DonS on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:18:39 PM EST
    PPJ says "For heaven's sake, don't some things transcend politics?: I'll bite. Nice talk and all that but, you see Jim we come from different planets. I'm from planet "humanity transcends nationality". You're from planet "my country right or wrong". I am not in the least in favor of maintaining "home front morale" in an illegitimate and immoral war. Your are for maintaing the illusion at all costs. Enjoy the illusion. You haven't fooled anyone here by your feigned forthrightness and deceptive candor.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:21:10 PM EST
    Aaron - No, you haven't been censored. The government hasn't prohibited you from writing/saying whatever it is that you want. Neither have those who have dumped you off their server or whatever, although I truly wish they hadn't. The best medicine for your beliefs is exposure to as many people as possible. Now, having said that, could you please be specific as to what was done by whom and when? Links? Emails? Url's? I might even drop'em a note of protest.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#52)
    by john horse on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:22:05 PM EST
    PPJ Sure some things should transcend politics and one of those things is this very simple principle. Americans should never be asked to sacrifice their lives for light and transient reasons. Why are we in Iraq? As Nir Rosen points out, "Today, the Americans are just one more militia lost in the anarchy. They, too, are killing Iraqis." Our continued occupaton is becoming increasingly counterproductive. Whatever benefit we are deriving from Iraq is far outweighed by the costs. As Eric Alterman points out, what we are achieving in Iraq is the following: We are apparently discrediting the idea of democracy.
    We are creating recruitment videos for anti-American terrorists. We are paying a trillion dollars to do this. We are losing our young men and women to do this. We have destroyed a country to do this.
    By the way, don't give me the "home front morale" bs. If our soldiers were given defective rifles that resulted in unnecessary casualties, wouldn't you do all that you could do to prevent it. How is a defective policy any different than a defective weapon? (note: analogy originally from Zbinew Brzenski)

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:24:15 PM EST
    Ah, yes, rogan1313, the old "not as bad as Saddam" defense. Well, not that old, really. It wasn't that many years ago that people who used Saddam Hussein as a standard of behavior would have been denounced as un-American and inhuman, but Bush supporters have to use what they've got nowadays. The Iraqi murderers aren't acting in my name, and I doubt their leaders care what I think about their activities. Perhaps foolishly, I still hope that those responsible for the US military's activities have reason to pay attention to what the American people think.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#54)
    by Edger on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:25:04 PM EST
    Thirty years ago this year Peter Finch's character Howard Beale in the movie Network had some lines that he said in a different time and context, but were words that carried the same emotions of helplessness, extreme outrage and furious anger that many probably feel today. Listen here... In a different way and for different reasons he said the same things that Tony Swindell said in the quote above.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:48:09 PM EST
    Think about what Howard Beale had to say ... this November.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:05:45 PM EST
    Baghdad is often getting only one hour of electricity a day! It is hot in Iraq, now. People's groceries are spoiling. It will be years and billions more invested before sufficient electricity can be generated. Baghdad Weather - May 31, 2006 Clear. High: 114° F / 46° C Wind NNW 8 mph. / 14 km/h. Baghdad 5 day forecast. 114 degrees. No electricity. No refrigeration. Spoiled food. No air conditioning. No lights. The TV and the radio are paperweights. No news coming in. Everyone is pi*sed off at everyone else. Especially at America. American troops are killing their unarmed civilians, killing the families of ten year olds in front of them, and now killing pregnant women on the way to hospital to give birth. Aim for their hearts and minds. Keep killing them till they love us...

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:03:31 PM EST
    DonS - Nope. Humanity does not transcend nationality. Country and actions of that country still count. Why? Because "humanity" by itself, or the professed belief that humanity can be viewed outside of the context of society, culture, social norms and goals, leads directly to anarchy. America isn't perfect, but we are still the best there ever was. In many respects you remind me of the old man who never married because he could never find a perfect woman. John H writes:
    (note: analogy originally from Zbinew Brzenski)
    Yeah. There is a real winner. (sarcasm alert) John, you can duck and weave, but you can't hide. In the wired world we live in, the actions of the Left are seen all over the world in almost real time. If you don't think the continual complaints don't cheer up the terrorists, you are wrong. And since I believe you are an intelligent person I think you know that to be true. Your problem is that you refuse to accept the imperfect for an improvement over what is there.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#58)
    by Patrick on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:11:11 PM EST
    Patrick - I doubt very much that the average Iraqi pays any more attention to the press and public opinion here than they pay to the Iraqi media and news sources these days:
    I didn't know we were talking about the "average Iraqi". Insurgent leaders are certainly aware of U.S. public opinion.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:16:06 PM EST
    ppj - You might as well say it dosnt transcend the tribe, the pack, the flock, or the bacterial colony. And of course for you it probobly never will. But, we knew that. Your fear of "anarchy" is your profoundly conservative fear of change and the unknown. Probobly not much different than the anarchy that a man from two hundred years ago would experience if he were alive today. So excuse the rest of us if we dont look to you as a guide for whats possible and what isnt.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:30:37 PM EST
    Minute particulars. The General Good is the plea of the Scoundral, the Flatterer, and the Hypocrite. Ask that womans family and the families of the recent twenty four if this is an "imperfect improvement."

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed May 31, 2006 at 10:42:41 PM EST
    I would argue though that home front morale is important, and has been for thousands of years during war time.
    Insurgent leaders are certainly aware of U.S. public opinion.
    Let's really cut to the chase...You just want to silence any critique of a disastrous foreign policy, because you support the politics of the guy who is responsible for that disaster. Transcending politics, indeed. Of course, what truly transcends politics is that people don't like being occupied by foreign armies. Recall the origins of this country, if you will.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 11:28:53 PM EST
    What would the great flock of chickensh*t hawks be without that "thousands of years during war time"? Life would utterly be utterly bereft of meaning. They must have their blood offerings.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 11:30:16 PM EST
    thats, would be utterly bereft of meaning.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#64)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 03:27:35 AM EST
    Corporal: Haditha Marines Blinded by Hate DoD Probe: Haditha Killings Unprovoked US Reverses, Says Troops Fired at Kabul Crowd Father of Dead Marine: Haditha Massacre Justified

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#65)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 03:33:31 AM EST
    America isn't perfect, but we are still the best there ever was.
    As if this alone, excuses anything done by the US. The King of relative moralism strinks again.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#66)
    by john horse on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 04:23:13 AM EST
    Ernesto re: "Of course, what truly transcends politics is that people don't like being occupied by foreign armies. Recall the origins of this country, if you will." A good point my friend. The historian Barbara Tuchman wrote a book called "March of Folly" in which she analyzed a number of historical disasters. In each of them the country's leaders were aware of a more rational course of action but, for various reasons, rejected it. One cannot help but think of Bush and Iraq when reading this book. To stay the course when you are going the wrong way is the epitome of irrationality.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 04:55:11 AM EST
    ." If you don't think the continual complaints don't cheer up the terrorists, you are wrong." great,i'm always happy to cheer up freedom fighters

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#68)
    by DonS on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 05:06:29 AM EST
    "nation states" and "transcending values" It is possible to have a nation that respects human values of others, and its possible to have a nation guided by the corrupt and morally deficient (fearful and shallow, if not totally bankrupt). Only the truly blind continue to make excuses for the corrupt. Where the leaders are corrupt and shallow, the support of the apparatus by apologists amounts to being accomplice to the crime. Understand that well: supporting a corrupt regime, out of the mainstream of American values, is anti-American. That's the real political science lesson, not some Hobbsian diatribe or Roussouian social contract lecture.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 06:14:32 AM EST
    DonS - We have a constitutional republic. In about 5 months we will have elections, we will have them again in about 29 months. At that time the people will speak. If you don't like the results you have several options. I suspect your real problem is that you view the 2000 elections as a loss of power by the Left, and all of your complaints stem from that. If I am wrong, tell me you protested Waco, Ruby Ridge... BigUnit12 writes:
    great,i'm always happy to cheer up freedom fighters
    We know. At 3:28PM. SD - It excuses no crime, but it provides context. Try real hard and you can probably grasp the concept. Jondee - Ah, the psycho babble has been thick lately. My comment to DonS posited that if he placed "humanity" first and ignored the requirements of society he would soon have anarchy. Our governing system is a balance between individual freedom and individual responsibility. Note that word, "responsibility." How you twist my words into some "fear," is in itself a study in tactics of the Left. You can't win the debate, so you try and claim the other side said something they didn't. Next comes the obligatory insult from Jondee. If you want to argue the merits of anarchy, I refer you to history. It doesn't seem to have worked out very well in any situation. Some, you might say, lost their heads over it.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#70)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 06:21:48 AM EST
    humanity does not transcend nationality.
    uhh, by definition it does, and really ppj, try to keep to the subject.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#71)
    by Edger on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 06:40:50 AM EST
    DonS:
    Only the truly blind continue to make excuses for the corrupt.
    Yes, they are blind Don. To the larger longer term consequences to the ideals for which America was founded. But the reason they twist and spin so frantically is that they are not blind at all to the fact that their moment at the peak of power rested on only two things. Fear and death. Not blind at all to the obvious; that they cannot convince by reason but can only rule by fear and murder. It was no accidental comment or mere rhetorical device that Al Gore used the other day when he branded the bush administration "a renegade band of rightwing extremists". Their power is crumbling because it is as self-destructive as it is as murderous, and they know that they are losing their grip on it bit by bit, story by story, inch by inch, with every day that passes as November draws nearer. They are like a band of rabid dogs being herded toward a cliff. They can see that quite clearly, and they are not about to go over that cliff willingly. They are not about to give up the only bit of legitimacy the bush administration gives them. However illusory it is, it is the only bit of legitimacy they've ever enjoyed. And they know in their hearts that once they lose it they may never get it back. Every story like this one that comes out is like a jab with a sharpened dirty stick to foaming at the mouth rabid dogs. They will snarl and bite and say and do and destroy and kill anyone and attempt to excuse anything to avoid the cliff, even the most despicable actions imaginable, including the murdering of unarmed civilians and of children and of families, and now even pregnant women on their way to hospital to give birth, not realizing that these tactics are only a further extension of everything that they've been doing all along. They are the walking dead. But unlike most of the dead thay will not simply lie down and stop moving. They will make their death rattle as loud as possible. ------
    Either we start living up to our own ideals or the world will very soon compel us to do it. If, that is, they even think we're worth saving. More...
    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#72)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 06:45:29 AM EST
    SD - It excuses no crime, but it provides context. Try real hard and you can probably grasp the concept.
    In that case your coment is meaningless, is that what you are saying? Now you're going to tell us that our crimes are not as bad as theirs because.... well we're us. Is that about it?

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#73)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 06:48:13 AM EST
    My comment to DonS posited that if he placed "humanity" first and ignored the requirements of society he would soon have anarchy. Our governing system is a balance between individual freedom and individual responsibility.
    Note thats not what DonS meant but thanks for another strawman. You on the other hand value the state over humanity and do not hold the state responsible for any ot its wrongdoings, unles they're by the "left" of course. Ah yes, the basic beliefs of a fascist.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#74)
    by DonS on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 07:06:19 AM EST
    Jim, citing the next election cycle is a lame response to an ongoing pattern of present misfeasance of government that needs immediate and continuing attention by everyone who values decency. Oh, I heard on the radio on my way to work that the Marines are getting refreshers in, guess what, ethics, morals and dedcency. Maybe the trainers can stop at the WH on the way back to base.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#75)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 07:51:40 AM EST
    Humanity does not transcend nationality. Country and actions of that country still count. Because "humanity" by itself, or the professed belief that humanity can be viewed outside of the context of society, culture, social norms and goals, leads directly to anarchy.
    Here we do see the root of Jim's thinking. Humanity for Jim is limited to his own world. He cannot see beyond national boundaries. He has very little empathy for people who happen to have been born outside of the US. But, lets look closer at his quote which proves DonS point that he is from another planet. Jim makes the contention that humanity by itself, outside of social context, leads to anarchy. Besides this being another strawman, it says nothing about nationalism. He still holds the attitude "my country right or wrong" supported by "country and actions of country still count." Well, country and the actions of country still do count. DonS and none of us here have ever argued differently. Nor has anyone here made the argument that humanity exists outside the context of sciety and social norms. "Humanity transcends nationality" is a phrase at the core of most major religions. It means that God resides in all of us. It means we are human before we are Americans. It means we are sickened by what happened on 9/11, at Waco, Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City, Haditha and to a preganant woman at a roadblock in Iraq. IT means we don't tolerate excuses because we can't comprehend the acts leading to the horrible loss of innocent life anywhere and we have sympathy for the families of the victims. "My country right or wrong" means humanity stops once it reaches beyond country. Sympathy for victims is no longer extended, thus outrage is felt only for innocent life if that innocent life was from the same country, and the loss of life for people not Americans will forever be justified by 9/11, Waco, and Ruby Ridge. You are an American Jim, but I doubt your humanity. You are a true patriot with little soul, and I, like some others have expressed here, truly do feel pity for you.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#76)
    by Edger on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 08:03:36 AM EST
    Her name is Nabiha Nisaif Jassim. Her dead unborn child will probably never even have a name, not to mention a life.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 08:59:02 AM EST
    Aaron... and we're going to lose this war/occupation, just the way we lost Vietnam You are probably right. And the fault lies squarly on the shoulders of the libs! Just like it did back then. Sailor... You don't shoot bullets into a windshield, on the passenger side, to 'disable a vehicle.' You do it to kill the inhabitants. Dude...when somebody flys through a roadblock...you have no way of knowing (except of course for the famous liberal "hind sight") what their intent is. Disabling the car will do nothing but get you killed if the guy inside has his finger on the bomb trigger! Are you awake for any of this? If you are against birth control I would suggest next time swallow the pearl necklace. Nice one here....! I'm sure TL would have had something to say if one of us right leaners made a comment like that! Tampa.... Conservatives haven't the ability to feel empathy. No...we're all robots. That gene was stripped out at conservative "boot camp"... LOL Let me hear about all the empathy you have for aborted babies Tampa! Incidentally, it shouldn't matter if it were a pregnant woman and her fetus that were killed any more than if it were an 18 year old male. There is no difference in degree of immorality. Yep... See my comment above about abortion and get back to me! Amazing how the "fetus" is highlighted over & over again by people here who routinely kill thousand every year with no fanfair at all! Or maybe it's just the self rightious rant of you typical America haters? Going on about how we on the right "hate" everyone who isn't white? Why you all are just the opposite...huh? John Horse... We are creating recruitment videos for anti-American terrorists.. Exactly! That's what we have all been saying! Everytime the left jumps for glee and makes sure the world (and specifically, our enemies) know about these things... You can bank on that. Bigunit12.... great,i'm always happy to cheer up freedom fighters Freedom? LMAO..you actually think these guys care about freedom? These people are no more "freedom" fighters than you are. But never fear..you and your kind do cheer them up I'm sure! BTW...when can we expect you to sign up & join them? Care to share your plans on what you plan to 'blow up' in protest of your nasty, evil government? You aren't related to Tim McVie are you? He was kinda pissed at the government too.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#78)
    by Patrick on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 08:59:49 AM EST
    Her dead unborn child will probably never even have a name, not to mention a life.
    As if a fetus has value to the left. Isn't it just a bunch of tissue ala Lacy Peterson's child and the rest? Now if Edgar was pro-life, that comment wouldn't smack so much of hypocrisy

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#79)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:03:33 AM EST
    when somebody flys through a roadblock
    dude, not even the military says it was a roadblock.
    Disabling the car will do nothing but get you killed if the guy inside has his finger on the bomb trigger!
    the military are the ones who claimed to shoot to disable the car.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#80)
    by Edger on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:12:45 AM EST
    Patrick, I know it's difficult to stay on topic on this thread without either condemning this atrocity and the mindset that lies behind it, which I notice you have not chosen to do, or excusing it. Diversion and attempts to change the subject are all you have left?

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#81)
    by Edger on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:16:24 AM EST
    They will snarl and bite and say and do and destroy and kill anyone and attempt to excuse anything to avoid the cliff, even the most despicable actions imaginable, including the murdering of unarmed civilians and of children and of families, and now even pregnant women on their way to hospital to give birth, not realizing that these tactics are only a further extension of everything that they've been doing all along.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#82)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:26:36 AM EST
    And, for some added perspective, here's a sobering Op-Ed piece from WaPo that lays out what a dysfunctional, violent, retributive mess that Iraq is.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#83)
    by Patrick on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:31:35 AM EST
    Patrick, I know it's difficult to stay on topic on this thread without either condemning this atrocity and the mindset that lies behind it, which I notice you have not chosen to do, or excusing it.
    Well then let me be clear. I excuse it. Tragic and horrible as it is. Contrary to our stated goals, etc. It helps no one, nor does it it help fix the problem. But it is understandable how it happened. I have seen no evidence that any of the involved parties has malicious intent. Since you seem to have such moral clarity on the issue. How would you fix it? Just pull out of Iraq as is or stay the course and try to do everything in your power to protect soldiers and civilians, or do you have some other suggestion? Come on. Complaining without offering solutions is just that, complaining.
    Diversion and attempts to change the subject are all you have left?
    I note the question mark, but have to ask, is that a question or not? I'm not the one using a pregnant woman's death a propoganda. Talk about diversion.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#84)
    by aw on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:32:16 AM EST
    Patrick:
    As if a fetus has value to the left.... Now if Edgar was pro-life, that comment wouldn't smack so much of hypocrisy
    Apologies to Edger for responding off topic to this stupidity. She was about to give birth. It was no longer a fetus or just a clump of tissue. As to the left, well, if we hated fetuses so much we wouldn't be reproducing and still around to annoy the likes of you.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#85)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:55:32 AM EST
    Sailor - Uh, if you will read DonS comment you will see that the discussion centers on the responsibility of the shooting and humanity vs state. Uh, please try to understand that in a thread it is efficient to not restate every premise and every position every time. Uhh, and no, "humanity" does not transcend a good and stable government. Without the latter the former is in trouble. SD - What I am telling you is that any thing we do, good and bad, must be placed into context of our past actions, and the intent of what we are now doing. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to note that the alleged murders by the Marines was terrible, but the US is not "responsible." The individuals are. In this incident the husband drove into a prohibited zone. A terrible mistake by him. Our response was reasonable; there is nothing to blame the country for. And BTW - This is exactly what DonS wrote:
    Nice talk and all that but, you see Jim we come from different planets. I'm from planet "humanity transcends nationality". You're from planet "my country right or wrong".
    BTW - My argument is exactly opposite from "my country right or wrong." It is we are the best, and we acknowledge our problems and try to fix them. This requires responsible actions by the individual "humanity" in service to the state. That would include soldiers not killing civilians, and individuals commenting that they would fight with the terrorists. BTW - You write:
    You on the other hand value the state over humanity
    No, I value both, and recognize that you can't have freedom without responsibility. Wasn't it Franklin who said when asked about what we had: "A Republic, Madame. If we can keep it." Peaches - Your analysis is inaccurate and incomplete. I recognize the right of all people to have their country, their culture. My position is that within that context, the US is good and just. If DonS wants to agonize over what he sees as our evil ways he should understand that our system requires responsible actions by both sides. As a general rule the Left has focused on the individual's rights and the Right on rights of the State. As a Social Liberal I think both should move towards the other. Your point regarding religion's concept is accurate, but religion has no history of being able to govern justly or provide cultures that are just. I give you the early Catholic church and the Islamic faith as of then and now. At best religion has provided concepts of right and wrong that have moved into the culture and into the government. As I noted above I did not say:
    "My country right or wrong"
    That was a claim made by DonS. I would appreciate more care reading by you, especially since I know you have the mental capability. So I will ignore your snide remarks regarding pity. My advice is to save it for yourself and your own sins. I suspect you will need it as much as any of us when you stand to be judged. DonS - My election was a reminder that, as part of that "responsibility," I noted, you can vote your beliefs. If humanity transcends nations, you would not be allowed to vote, because there would be no nation. You seem to find the Marines actions re refresher course re ROE, etc., damning. I find it proof that the system works. It is called problem solving.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#86)
    by roger on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:00:32 AM EST
    Jim, According to your logic, Saddam was bad, but that was not the fault of the Iraqis. Saddam is gone, so we can bring our troops home.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#87)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:12:45 AM EST
    SD - What I am telling you is that any thing we do, good and bad, must be placed into context of our past actions, and the intent of what we are now doing.
    PPJ you have used this logic to excuse every atrocity committed by this administration and by the military in Iraq. Since the Admin and the military represent the US, then the US is indeed responsible. And even more so when it is the policies of the state that put the GIs in these no-win situations.
    Our response was reasonable; there is nothing to blame the country for
    Thats anassumption that you always make regardless of the event. The other trick that the fascists use is to isolate on the tree in front of you and never see that the forest has almost been destroyed. The complaints about inappropiate reaction at checkpoints or about convoys has been going on for years. There is a pattern here that you will never acknowledge.
    No, I value both, and recognize that you can't have freedom without responsibility.
    This has nothing to do with my point. You have always sided with the state over the individual, many times by saying in effect, that all responsibility ends with the individual, and that none resides with the people who implemented the polices and created the situation. Younever allow the chain of responsibility to approach those who are, in effect, the state. Good little fascist!

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#88)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:14:29 AM EST
    I noted, you can vote your beliefs. If humanity transcends nations, you would not be allowed to vote, because there would be no nation
    yet another BS strawman.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#89)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:17:59 AM EST
    I recognize the right of all people to have their country, their culture. My position is that within that context, the US is good and just.
    This is also a blantant lie given your pronouncements on Islam and the ME. Secondly, your overblown nationalism is the cornerstone of the slow consistent march towards fascism in this country.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#90)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:32:21 AM EST
    I recognize the right of all people to have their country, their culture. My position is that within that context, the US is good and just.
    To say the US is good and just is meaningless. I agree that as an ideal that the US was founded upon--life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness--it is worth striving for. We have a history that leaves a lot to be proud of. We also have many things which we need to face up to and we are not beyond being unjust and immoral in many instances. The good inherent in the ideals of the USA is not a fact, but a goal that is worth striving to achieve--even if we never do achieve this goal.
    Your point regarding religion's concept is accurate, but religion has no history of being able to govern justly or provide cultures that are just. I give you the early Catholic church and the Islamic faith as of then and now. At best religion has provided concepts of right and wrong that have moved into the culture and into the government.
    We do not have to get into a discussion about religion, but I will say that religion from my point of view is not institutionalized. The early Catholic church and radical islam are institutions that should be analyzed from the standpoint of politics and history. My religious views are personal and when I read the texts I read tham from my perspective not the interpretation of instituions. I find the lesson God resides in all of us within the texts of many disparate religious texts.
    As I noted above I did not say: "My country right or wrong" That was a claim made by DonS. I would appreciate more care reading by you
    I believe I noted that this characterization was made by DonS, yet suppoted by your defense of putting country ahead of humanity with Country and actions of country still count.
    So I will ignore your snide remarks regarding pity. My advice is to save it for yourself and your own sins. I suspect you will need it as much as any of us when you stand to be judged.
    Well, I wasn't being snide and I am not partail to a specific judgement day. We are judged at every moment and each moment is everlasting. To quote Blake: To see a World in a grain of sand, And Heaven in a wild flower, Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour.

    Re: U.S. Troops Kill Iraqi Pregnant Woman (none / 0) (#91)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 10:34:40 AM EST
    What I am telling you is that any thing we do, good and bad, must be placed into context of our past actions, and the intent of what we are now doing. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to note that the alleged murders by the Marines was terrible, but the US is not "responsible." The individuals are. In this incident the husband drove into a prohibited zone. A terrible mistake by him. Our response was reasonable; there is nothing to blame the country for.
    I believe "nits make lice" is the death cultist motto that you're dancing around but don't have the cojones to say.