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Tuesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue May 30, 2006 at 10:34:27 AM EST
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Three days off means catching up on four days of work. For those of you not so hamstrung today, here's a space for you to keep us up to date.

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    Tuesday Open Thread | 81 comments (81 topical)
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by soccerdad on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:04:21 AM EST
    meanwhile on the other front in the war on terror we continue to make friends and influence people.
    A deadly traffic accident Monday involving U.S. troops sparked the worst rioting in the Afghan capital since the fall of the Taliban regime, with hundreds of protesters looting shops and shouting "Death to America!" At least eight people were killed and 107 injured, an official said.
    link

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:19:26 AM EST
    Maybe I missed it, but I have checked in fairly regularly and haven't seen it. I would be really interested in what one of you have to say about the Enron trial, if there is much to be said.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by peacrevol on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:23:29 AM EST
    Iran's nuclear development: Why cant we do something to make everybody happy in Iran? For example, it is my understanding that the Russians have agreed to help them build a nuclear power plant. Why doesnt the UN send in a team to help them build it and monitor how they use their technology? That way we'd have UN representatives making their presence known and either not allowing the construction of nuclear weapons or knowing when the plans arise to build nuclear weapons while still allowing Iran to develop energy technology. Iran should agree to this if they truly are not trying to develop nukes. And in this situation, everybody wins. Iran gets nuclear energy, and the world can ensure that they dont develop nuclear weapons.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:43:39 AM EST
    Anyone know anything about Harry Reid accepting free tickets to boxing events from Nevada promoters trying to influence his stance on federal legislation? I thought this kind of ethical dilemma was purely a Republican issue. Seems like some of the Dems have been playing fast and loose with the rules as well. Not that I'm surprised. Harry always did have an air of hypocrisy around him when he started spouting off about ethics. And on other fronts (hey, it's an open thread): I'm starting to wonder if the Republicans in Congress are protesting so loudly about the Jefferson raid in order to drag it out fully into the light. Sensennbrenner says he's going to get Gonzalez up there to testify on how they reached their decision, and if they have even half the evidence they claim too, it's going to be as close to a slam dunk as you can get. A Congressman on the take, caught with the money, and refusing to honor subpeonas is about as straightforward as you can get. On the other hand, why they think this will help them, or why they think everyone will conveniently forget their assinine claims of privilege based on a separation of powers argument, is beyond me.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by squeaky on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:53:29 AM EST
    JP-TPM has all the dirty details:
    Now, Solomon's back reporting that Reid accepted boxing tickets he was allowed to accept from his home state's boxing commission and in exchange voted against the people who gave him the tickets. ( He voted for more federal boxing regs.) When will the corruption end?


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 12:00:36 PM EST
    You'd have to be one hell of a boxing fan to risk your credibilty and possibly your job for some free tickets. JP, got anymore "the Dems did it too" stuff? Ya gotta try harder than that.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 12:09:20 PM EST
    Jondee, This has nothing to do with "the Dems doing it too". As I said, it's no surprise. They all do it, all the time. What is surprising is that you don't care when it's a Democrat, but you'll scream bloody murder when it's a Republican. But I guess that's what happens when your principles are partisan felixible. You're going to have to do a lot better than your usual whine to deflect that fact from the light.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by desertswine on Tue May 30, 2006 at 12:11:12 PM EST
    MILFORD TOWNSHIP, Mich. - The FBI is ending its search for Jimmy Hoffa's remains at a suburban Detroit horse farm, a local prosecutor said, citing police officials.
    Hah! I thought everybody knew that Hoffa was under the end zone in Giant's Stadium.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 12:16:42 PM EST
    And "when its a Democrat" refers to what specifically? Jefferson is a crook and yeah they're on both sides of the aisle. Its one of the side effects of money = speech; an equation that Im guessing you fully concur with. Btw, theres a rumour afloat that Reid recieved some free cookies from the Girl Scouts of America. Check it out and get back to us.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 12:23:44 PM EST
    Tell us again how we "all leapt to Arianna's defense."

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Slado on Tue May 30, 2006 at 12:55:35 PM EST
    The "culture of coruption" platform has blown up in the democrats face. Dems can deflect the criticism of Reid and Jefferson and all the other democrats that took money from Abrahmof all they want but their strategy to portray Republicans as the only corrupt congressman hasn't paid off. They need to find a new bogus position to try and "take back the house" on.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by scribe on Tue May 30, 2006 at 01:34:40 PM EST
    This is much more entertaining than you guys' back and forth about Harry Reid. (thanks to gawker.com) Truth of the Reid matter is - (a) there's an exception to Senate rules about gifts from governmental agencies (like the Nevada Boxing Commission) - they're allowed, (b) if the Boxing Commission was trying to curry favor with Reid by giving him tickets, they failed - he voted against them and in favor of more federal regulation of boxing, (c) CNN and AP are on an ongoing crusade against Reid, because he's a Democrat, and (d) you guys fell for their propaganda. Go play with the swarming bees.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by BigTex on Tue May 30, 2006 at 01:35:01 PM EST
    One to file in the idiot department. A person was pulled over for tailgating a fuel truck. Upon searching the vehicle, LEO found 18K pounds of fireworks in the vehicle. Can anyone say BOOM!? That would have been one hell of an explosion had they collided.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 01:37:17 PM EST
    Talk about the thrill-seeking personality..

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 30, 2006 at 01:41:43 PM EST
    Scribe writes:
    CNN and AP are on an ongoing crusade against Reid, because he's a Democrat
    Can you show some proof of this? And do you mind if I laugh? SD - The accident happened because of brake failure. But those in the know tell the old Snooper that George W. Bush was seen in th area with a pair of pliers capable of cutting the brake fluid line. There now. Feel better? Jondee wrote:
    and yeah they're on both sides of the aisle.
    Heart be still, Jondee has seen the light... Or was it the FBI video???

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by soccerdad on Tue May 30, 2006 at 01:43:04 PM EST
    once again PPJ ignores the point.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by roy on Tue May 30, 2006 at 01:47:29 PM EST
    Jondee, You keep putting "money = speech" in others' mouths like it's a bad thing, but I've never actually seen/heard anybody make the claim. What does it mean, anyway?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:01:48 PM EST
    Roy - "like its a bad thing" I guess that means you're saying its a good thing. Looks like somebody just "made the claim".

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:11:49 PM EST
    What it means is that if fully put into practice, the destiny of the nation is at the mercy of the whims of those who command the most capital. If money automatically signified wisdom and intelligence than I'd say you were onto something; but it dosnt and you arnt.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by roy on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:18:00 PM EST
    Jondee, Unless "money = speech" has some subtle meaning you've declined to share, it's just plainly false. It's like claiming "monkey = spoon". If it does have that hidden meaning, I don't know what it is, so I can't "make the claim". Anyway, obviously, money doesn't equal speech. If you tell me I can't spend my money on a bag of pot, that's not infringing my speech. If you tell me I can't pay only $2 per hour to an employee, that's not infringing my speech. If you say a politician can't accept a $20K campaign donation from me, that's not infringing my speech. However, I will claim that some so-called regulation of money is actually regulation of speech. If you tell me I can't spend $20K on an ad saying "vote for Steve" because it says "vote for Steve", that's infringing my speech. If you tell me I can't mention Steve in a paid ad by name the day before the election because it mentions Steve by name, that's infringing my speech. Is the delineation clear?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Peaches on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:23:28 PM EST
    I will claim that some so-called regulation of money is actually regulation of speech. If you tell me I can't spend $20K on an ad saying "vote for Steve" because it says "vote for Steve", that's infringing my speech. If you tell me I can't mention Steve in a paid ad by name the day before the election because it mentions Steve by name, that's infringing my speech.
    Roy, iow, "money = speech"

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by roy on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:26:47 PM EST
    Peaches & Jondee, IOW, speech ceases to be speech if you spend money on it. That's fine & dandy to believe, but I expect my legal system to be more protective of speech rights.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Peaches on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:30:01 PM EST
    but I expect my legal system to be more protective of speech rights.
    Well, of course, you get what you pay for.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by scribe on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:31:47 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ: If I ever get around to it on the AP/CNN anti-Reid crusade, sure (I think Josh Marshall and KOS have done a nice job pointing out how those two media outlets slant their coverage; you can find it there). In the meantime, chew on Your Leader's Flack-in-chief admitting Your Leader lied - and only a week after the fact. And before you start keening and whining over the wonders of his excuse, please consider how the markets are being screwed out of pertinent, legally required information (and thereby being roiled and manipulated) by the permission The Unitary Executive gave AT&T and the other Telcos to not disclose contracts and other activities and not be bound by various securities (the tradeable Wall Street kind) laws, so as to hide his NSA spying. If you can come up with a logically consistent, intellectually honest explanation how, on the one hand, avoiding affecting the markets by lying about whether you'll be hiring and whom is OK, while on the other hand concealing information and lying to the markets (by permitting companies to present the markets a dishonest picture of the companies' financials) and thereby affecting the markets is simulataneously a good thing, I'm all ears. Oh, and arguments like "these courses of action enable me and my buddies to make a killing in the market" and "you don't have any civil liberties when you're dead" don't count, because neither argument is intellectually honest and logically consistent.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 02:55:33 PM EST
    Roy - When I refered to the money = speech equation, I was refering specifically not to some mysterious, "hidden meaning", but to the very specific set of circumstances that you delineated in your last paragraph; which is the only context in which I, and I daresay, anyone else here has ever seen that "just plain false" equation used. Possibly you missed all the debates on campaign financing in the last ten years in which the question of "whether money equals speech" - couched ad nauseum in those very precise terms - has been practically flogged to mincemeat. Or, are you just being disengenuous?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 30, 2006 at 03:40:32 PM EST
    Jondee writes:
    If money automatically signified wisdom and intelligence than I'd say you were onto something; but it dosnt and you arnt.
    If the money is inhertied we can say that it means nothing. If the money has been earned by the person in question, then obviously that person is smarter than the average bear. That doesn't mean that some people are smart, but have no money for a variety of reasons. Scribe - Telling me that KOS has done a good job is meaningless, but I didn't really think you could answer. As for you meandering about accounting rules, could you be specific? My memory says they were established long before Jan 01. As for your first point. If he had said that Snow was out the market would have went into a turmoil and he would have been accused of doing so to allow his friends to make a killing by shorting the market.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 30, 2006 at 03:47:34 PM EST
    Speaking of money.... About two months ago Walmart opened a super center in the town I live in. Super centers sell gasoline. When they opened they were about 11 cents a gallon cheaper than all the other stations. As I was driving today I noticed every station I passed was now only about 1 cents higher than Walmart. When I arrived in another town about 15 miles away, the prices there were 12 to 14 cents higher... Ah, the invisible hand of the Market

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimcee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 04:29:09 PM EST
    OK, now let me get this straight; if Harry Reid excepts private perks whether it be cash, campaign donations, real estate, hookers or prime ring-side seats at a high profile fight and that is fine by some folks here as long as he votes against those who 'gave' him those 'gifts'. bou But on the otherhand if he votes for the donor's interests than that is corruption. Funny but I thought that 1) he has a job that pays well above the average wage of his electorate and thusly could afford tickets to a big time bout instead of having them 'donated' by a public 'authority'. Although that 'authority' has allowed brain-damaged boxers into Nevada rings whenever no other state commission would allow it. And 2) He is a decietful, two-faced bast*rd that will accept any 'gift' from special interests and then stab them in the back back in DC. So either way he is a corrupt bast*rd who has no problem giving the appearence of being bought while at the same time he votes against the interest of those who thought of him as a bought politician. The question that remains is if people who actually give him money one way or the other can't trust him to do thier bidding then how could those who have less to 'donate' expect any better treatment? What lenghths the 'Jonestown' folks from either side will go for anyone who mouths thier favorite platitudes. Hypocrite loving suckers, all...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 04:55:40 PM EST
    Jimcee - Except that miraculously it only the "jonestown" folks on one side that you ever complain about. Does that mean you live in the other jonestown? If you can name me one insider in that system of institutionalized graft that dosnt except "perks" of one kind or another, I'd like to hear about them. The fact that the system encourages corruption is the point that everyone wants to dance around. Its not a question anymore of who's dirty and who's clean; its who's dirtier.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by roy on Tue May 30, 2006 at 04:56:03 PM EST
    No disengenuity intended. I spent much of the last ten years thinking "money = pizza and [root] beer" and missed the birthing of the phrase. I suggest "speech paid for by money = speech" to prevent confusion. Anyway:
    Come up with an argument with a little more moral force and intelligence than if-you-cant-pay-more-than-me-you're-[SOL] (what do you think this is, a democracy?) and maybe you wont need to buy "speech rights".
    As for moral force, this'll only work if you accept "it's nobody's d*mned business" as a strong moral guidepost. Let's say you have $50,000 and your associate Homer has a TV network. You pay Homer to air a commercial advocating Steve for President, and he does it. Homer's viewers watch. At what point did it become anybody else's d*mned business? You and Homer and his viewers are just using what's yours, and the fact that others want it doesn't make it theirs. For intelligence, let's try this: allowing politicians to decide how we may discuss them is bad policy. It gives them the power to ensure they keep power. It removes accountability because if you see them do something wrong, you can only spread the word in a way they approve of. You'd have a hard time spreading the word under money = speech because paid ads would crowd you out, but if you found somebody to help by donating money or airtime, you'd be allowed to. That's better than having to wheedle with Congress to avoid being censored as an "in-kind donation" or required to help the opposition under a "fairness doctrine". But I must admit, I buy speech rights. I donate a bit of money to the ACLU and EFF, and they buy ads. Those b*stards.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimcee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 05:28:53 PM EST
    Jondee, Perhaps I wasn't clear when I wrote, "...the Jonestown folks from either side.." I mean't that there are folks out there that will defend thier guy no matter how corrupt he is, I won't but many will. If you think I'm just only picking on the left you just haven't been paying attention. As I've pointed out in the past that it was always curious to me how someone making $140,000 and keeping two residences with one being in a very expensive neighborhood could retire with millions after a couple of terms. It starts with free boxing billets and ends with that rather large boat with your knick-name on the stern. Jondee, I ain't a Republican so keep your powder dry.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Sailor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 06:54:23 PM EST
    ya know the funniest thing about the 'net that for $128.89 you can buy an individual's phone records, mortgage and military service. From the clues he's given all I had to do was cough up a bit 'o ching and hold my nose to where I could stand to examine his records. If the NSA and ATT do it it must be OK ... right? I wonder if ppj would like to 'spend more time with his family' before the truth is published?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimcee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:49:46 PM EST
    Sailor, I used to work as a property abstractor and I learned how to search public records for everything from mortgages, UCC's, property lines, familial lineage, wills, tax maps and records of some of the most personal things imaginable. If you buy a house all this will be searched through public records and you as the buyer will pay for it all in your monthly mortgage payment. With the right program your past can be searched to the inth degree just by your web address. Actually TL could do the same if she chose just because you posted here (of course she wouldn't). So in the end PPakaJ is right in that you can find out about most anyone for a price but in reality with the internet presence of so many public records you could do it for free if you know how. Most people are too lazy to do the research themselves so they'll pay someone to do it for them. If you think you have privacy in your public dealings then you are just naive. If you think you have privacy behind your property lines or with your medical records then I will defend you 110%. Hint: Never mistake public for private dealings.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 30, 2006 at 08:09:54 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 08:43:58 PM EST
    lemon curry?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimcee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 09:15:21 PM EST
    raulduke, I perfer a nice Thai red curry, soured with a little lemon grass, chicken or fish, extra spicy on basmati rice, pleeease,.... perhaps some cool yogurt on the side.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 10:00:09 PM EST
    jimc, i just had one the other night that i suspect was of western origins...Basil Curry! never seen it, so i ordered it. good god. order it on the high-spicy side and yes, be sure you're dealing with actual Basmati rice. heaven. heaven is a place. a place where basil. finds it's way to a curry.... apologies, David Byrne.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 10:34:44 PM EST
    When I was in NY a few weeks ago I ate at both Rain (upper West side) and Indochine (Village) and both were great, as always. While I'm more partial to Vietnamese food like Goi Ga salad (chicken), crispy soft shell crabs, Mi Xao and Pho, I love Thai food too. Le Colonial in midtown is another one of my favorites. Also right up there is Japanese food and sushi.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by BigTex on Tue May 30, 2006 at 10:58:45 PM EST
    For all those who talk about the unforgiving red states who have religous intolerance towards homosexuality, pleae explain why per capita it is blue states who lead the way in per capita hate crimes based on sexual orientation, not red states.
    #1 District of Columbia #2 Maine #3 New Hampshire #4 Delaware #5 Massachusetts #6 Oregon #7 Vermont #8 Montana #9 California #10 Michigan #11 Minnesota #12 Rhode Island #13 New Jersey #14 Connecticut
    Per capita ratios omitted from quote. I posit the love the sinner, hate the sin philosophy by religous types is the reason.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:21:19 PM EST
    I posit the love the sinner, hate the sin philosophy by religous types is the reason.
    Or more likely, gay people either avoid living in or flee the red states as soon as they are able.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:41:50 PM EST
    Ernesto, Well played. Ah, but he makes it so easy sometimes....

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:46:06 PM EST
    or is it not obvious that larger populations of gay people in a given state would tend to result in greater hate crimes stats? stats are like dogs, you can make them do tricks, but they can still crap on your pillow. night Tex.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed May 31, 2006 at 12:43:03 AM EST
    Well another factor could be that they're forced to stay in the closet in the red states. Makes them safer that way...and keeps the "religious types" happy, too.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by soccerdad on Wed May 31, 2006 at 02:47:47 AM EST
    in per capita hate crimes based on sexual orientation, not red states.
    Red states don't really consider it a crime.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Wed May 31, 2006 at 03:26:16 AM EST
    If I was gay living in a red state and the target of a hate crime I might have little confidence that police would be helpful and might second thoughts about reporting it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Slado on Wed May 31, 2006 at 06:19:32 AM EST
    I've live in a red state and last year lived in another and the last 8 comments proove that blue staters have no idea what they are talkinga bout. Being for something and actually practicing it are two diffent matters. BigTex is right on and the ignorance of the last few posts is why repulicans control all levels of government.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Wed May 31, 2006 at 06:33:12 AM EST
    For what it's worth here are: Some facts about hate crimes:
    • Most hate crime incidents are probably not reported to the police. This may well be particularly the case for assaults on homosexuals. Victims of gay bashing often do not report the crime because they are still "in the closet." Some police forces do not transfer their hate crime statistics to the FBI.
    • The Southern Poverty Law Center said that attacks against gays tend to be more severe than those against other minority groups. They recorded 21 gays and lesbians killed in 1996 because of their sexual orientation.
    • "Most anti-gay hate crime perpetrators perceive gay bashing to be socially sanctioned and, therefore, acceptable behavior."


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:16:07 AM EST
    most but not all of the fundamentalist christian wacko ministers who preach hate against gays are from the south.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:30:26 AM EST
    Speaking of the love the sinner, hate the sin philosophy, check out the Tuskegee Institutes state by state lynching statistics (ok, they only go up to 1968).

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:43:05 AM EST
    Just wondering: whatever happened to Jason Leopold and his famous exclusive scoop? I thought he was going to make some of us eat crow and see the tragic error of our ways, for merely questioning an obviously false report. I am truly disappointed. I was so looking forward to getting my comeuppance from such a heroic investigative journalist. Umm...what were the names of those exclusive sources, who only spoke with the great Jason? I must've been asleep when he revealed those.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by BigTex on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:51:55 AM EST
    most but not all of the fundamentalist christian wacko ministers who preach hate against gays are from the south.
    Agreeing with the statment here Soc, that gets back to the question of why the lower per capita instance of hate crimes? EDM - That argument may have some bearing on why, except for the absloute number of hate crimes based on sexual orientation is low. There are enough homosexuals in red states to have crimes. raulduke - speaking of the obvious; a hate crime deals with someone who is motivated by dislike for the status in question. This is dealing with belief, not with concentration of targets. Every state has enough targets to have hate crimes.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by roy on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:57:21 AM EST
    If you're going to look at per-capita hate crime stats, don't you need the per-non-straight-capita numbers? Otherwise you're measuring the wrong thing.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Edger on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:57:59 AM EST
    bumbaclatt, There has also been no credible evidence from anyone that Rove was not indicted. As Squeaky noted the other day here, there may have been a sealed indictment, and a gag order - which is as good an explanation for all the denials from the rove camp as anything else. All is speculation now on this subject. There are no facts to sink your teeth into, except one: 'there are no facts to sink your teeth into...'

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 07:58:16 AM EST
    Big Tex - Again, take a look at Tuskegee Institutes state by state lynching stats.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:00:32 AM EST
    One more fact: still no retraction request from the rove camp to truthout or to Leopold, so far as I know.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by BigTex on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:04:27 AM EST
    Big Tex - Again, take a look at Tuskegee Institutes state by state lynching stats.
    Data from back in the 60's is of no concern. It's a cherry picked set of data.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:11:49 AM EST
    Big Tex - Sorry, but thats lame in the extreme. By that standard, any data you dont like is "cherry picked". Are you suggesting that Tuskegee researchers are risking their credibility solely in order to make red states look bad? Thats not the best attitude to carry over when trying to take an objective look at things like global warming.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by soccerdad on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:21:43 AM EST
    that gets back to the question of why the lower per capita instance of hate crimes
    different attitude = less sympathy for the victim = less reporting The extremist preach an intolerance that has slowly been creeping into the mainstream and it is fostered by the religious wackos. In a climate of intolerance there will be less reporting. The climate of intolerance is higher in the red states. Does that mean that everyone in a red state is intolerant - of course not. There are plenty of intolerant people up here too, but we are talking relative numbers. And I still choose to believe that such people are in a minority in all states.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:31:05 AM EST
    > There are no facts to sink your teeth into, except one: 'there are no facts to sink your teeth into...' Thanks, edger, 'dat be true 'nuff. But it's not what Leopold claimed. He insisted that he possessed the facts, in minute detail. And then there was something about 24 hours, (or was that like a TV serial, which takes months to conclude?). Also, maybe Jeralyn or someone can explain, but if a real indictment is sealed, can a copy of it be given to the indictee - weeks or months before it is unsealed, or never unsealed? Seems rather odd to me. And, yeah, but why would Rove have to respond to someone like Leopold, anyway? Sorry, but that would be the last thing on his mind. Despite all of his ego, Leopold is nobody.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Peaches on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:33:32 AM EST
    Big T. Edgers stats from SPL are right on.
    Most hate crime incidents are probably not reported to the police.
    I noticed my state (MN) was on the list. We have our share of wingnuts here and gay bashers who commit hate crimes. We also have a very strong Gay community and support from the overall community for contributions from gay members. I think a homosexual who is a victim of a hate crime will be much mor elikely to report the crime to the police in Minnesota than in Mississippi or Texas, because he or she knows that the police and community will take the allegation seriously and investigate the crime.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:42:36 AM EST
    BigTex
    pleae explain why per capita it is blue states who lead the way in per capita hate crimes based on sexual orientation, not red states.
    Well it may have to do with this: The more intolerant or bigoted a system is the less it will see hate crime as crime. At the extreme gays would wind up in jail after getting their face rearranged for the crime of being gay by the local good ole boys. Slado-
    I've live in a red state and last year lived in another and the last 8 comments proove that blue staters have no idea what they are talkinga bout.
    Would have never guessed that you were gay. Glad that you have not suffered through a hate crime in your red state. It may just be that you are lucky.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:48:11 AM EST
    Maybe he and his life partner just spend quiet evenings at home most times.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by BigTex on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:49:21 AM EST
    Sorry, but thats lame in the extreme.
    We both know that the civil rights era and today are two totally different situations. To use civil rights ear data is to load the dice. At least with the data I presented it is the most receint data, and presented with no knowledge of what the past few years data was. No cherry picking there. However, if you provide a link, I'll look at the data. Perhaps I missed it above, but didn't see a link in the post referring to the data.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by BigTex on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:50:03 AM EST
    Sorry, but thats lame in the extreme.
    We both know that the civil rights era and today are two totally different situations. To use civil rights ear data is to load the dice. Apples and oranges at best. At least with the data I presented it is the most receint data, and presented with no knowledge of what the past few years data was. No cherry picking there. However, if you provide a link, I'll look at the data. Perhaps I missed it above, but didn't see a link in the post referring to the data.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by soccerdad on Wed May 31, 2006 at 08:59:16 AM EST
    Another hint at the explanation is provided here In general the highest reporting occurs in states with the most explicit statutes

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:10:22 AM EST
    Sailor- not just explicit laws but laws period. If a tree falls in a forest with no one to hear it, then does it make a sound? Who would have ever thought mob lynching a slave (or their decendents) was any worse than shooting a mad dog at one time.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:12:40 AM EST
    sorry soccerdad the above was in response to your illuminating link, not Sailor's.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:12:41 AM EST
    Tex - "Civil rights era data"? Are you suggesting that studies done during the civil rights era are impossible to verify? The study, which covers the time period of from 1882 to 1968 is based on the historical record of newspaper accounts (those events almost always made the papers even if little was done to stop them), police records, and and first person accounts. Google Tuskegee Institute lynching statistics state by state. And if you can provide any evidence other than your opinion that the study is "cherry picked", I'd love to see it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:23:54 AM EST
    Posted by Jondee May 31, 2006 09:48 AM Maybe he and his life partner just spend quiet evenings at home most times.
    You appear to be attempting to insult Big Tex by implying that he is gay. Do you consider being gay to be a bad thing?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by jondee on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:27:47 AM EST
    JRT - Actually, it was Slado. Are you suggesting that spending a quiet evening at home with your partner is a bad thing?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:33:56 AM EST
    JRT- Slado has come out of the closet here, and we were, well, just a bit surprised. No insults were intended.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by BigTex on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:46:32 AM EST
    Soc - thanks for the link. That is a good explination. Jondee - I'm not questioning the accurac of the study. The difference is the social attitudes of the 60s and 2000's. It's cherry picked because it is data from a different era with a different midset, which undoubetly reflects poorly on red states. That's like looking at the credit history of a person only when they were in college to determine if they are eligible for a loan 30-40 years later. Times change. The study ends in 1968, the mindset was different then.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Peaches on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:47:40 AM EST
    JRT-Let me also say that I would never insult Slado concerning his sexual preference. Who he chooses to sleep with is his own business--and I support his pride and courage in coming out of the closet on TL.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by squeaky on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:52:45 AM EST
    From kos:
    South Dakota abortion ban will make the ballot
    Today, the South Dakota Campaign for Healthy Families announced the filing of nearly 38,000 signatures on petitions to repeal the extreme abortion ban passed by the legislature and signed into law by Governor Mike Rounds on March 6.
    A couple of things. First of all, the petition gatherers needed 16,728 signatures. Gatherers always collect a few more to account for invalid signatures, but this was over twice what was needed. A remarkable number. It also means the ban will be suspended until voters decide in November.
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by squeaky on Wed May 31, 2006 at 11:29:02 AM EST
    Josh Marshall notes that not only were the donated NV boxing commission seats legal gifts:
    Another very significant detail missing from yesterday's AP piece on Harry Reid: it would have been illegal for Reid to have reimbursed the Nevada Athletic Commission for his seats to the boxing matches.
    TPM

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by Slado on Wed May 31, 2006 at 04:25:33 PM EST
    Even if I was gay "not that there's anything wrong with that" it wouldn't matter becuase the theory that red state gays live in some sort of fear is ridiculous. The truth of the matter is most blue state voters are not high minded liberal bloggers but working class people or minorities and are just as opposed to gay rights as the right wing christians you know nothing about. Wonder why no state amendment supporting marriage between a man and a women hasn't passed? Oregon passed such an ammendment? Is that a red state? Ignorance is bliss. Your thoery is ridiculous. BigTex 1 Lefty Trolls 0.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed May 31, 2006 at 04:34:57 PM EST
    The truth of the matter is most blue state voters are not high minded liberal bloggers but working class people or minorities and are just as opposed to gay rights as the right wing christians you know nothing about.
    So why didn't they all vote Republican, since that's the party dedicated to exploiting their fears and prejudices about gay people?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 06:13:40 PM EST
    Talkleft wrote:
    When I was in NY a few weeks ago I ate at both Rain (upper West side) and Indochine (Village) and both were great, as always. While I'm more partial to Vietnamese food like Goi Ga salad (chicken), crispy soft shell crabs, Mi Xao and Pho, I love Thai food too. Le Colonial in midtown is another one of my favorites.
    Nam (Tribeca - Reade street). It claims to be Vietnamese Fussion (whatever that is?)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 31, 2006 at 09:25:40 PM EST
    pardon our obvious blogwhoring, but skippy tee shirts are now for sale!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Slado on Thu Jun 01, 2006 at 09:49:06 AM EST
    Ernesto you know why. They are convinced that bigger government, minority rights, unions and other democratic ideals are better for them and don't worry about the social issues. Just like Gulliani and Arnold are republicans even though they support abortion rights, environmental issues and other more liberal ideas. Any other questions?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 11:25:03 PM EST
    Slado - The government has never been "bigger" than it is today and your pals control the executive and both houses. Turn off the Rush for a minute and take a clear eyed look around you. Reality gives the lie to your stereotypes.

    Tuesday Open Thread | 81 comments (81 topical)