home

Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Interviews


Lucian Reed, World Picture News Network

Here is a video of a young girl whose father and grandparents were killed Nov. 19 in Haditha by U.S. Marines who burst through their door. She not only details what happened, but shows her own shrapnel wounds from the incident.

In all, 24 civilians were killed by members of the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regimen, (Kilo Company) which was brought in due to their "success" during the 2004 Fallujah raid. The Independent, Human Rights Watch and others have compared the killings to the 1968 My Lai Massacre.

The Senate Armed Forces Committee will investigate the killings.

The New York Times has interviews with additional survivors. As to who was responsible, the Times reports:

According to one United States defense official, who declined to be identified because details of the investigation are not supposed to be revealed, most of the subsequent killings are believed to have been committed by a handful of marines led by a staff sergeant who was their squad leader, although other marines are also under investigation.

The killings were execution-style:

One Haditha victim was an elderly man, close to 80 years old, killed in his wheelchair as he appeared to be holding a Koran, according to the United States defense official, who described information collected during the investigation. An elderly woman was also killed, as were a mother and a child who were "in what appeared to be a prayer position," the official said.

The Times interviewed 13 year old Safa Younis Salim:

There was one survivor, Safa Younis Salim, 13, who in an interview said she lived by faking her death. "I pretended that I was dead when my brother's body fell on me and he was bleeding like a faucet," she said. She said she saw American troops kick her family members and that one American shouted in the face of one relative before he was killed.

Some victims had single gunshot wounds to the head, and at least one home where people were shot to death had no bullet marks on the walls, inconsistent with a clearing operation that would typically leave bullet holes, the official added.

This March 20 Time Magazine article provides good background to the killings. Sunday, Time reported not just on the killings, but on the attempted cover-up.

Almost as damaging as the alleged massacre may be evidence that the unit's members and their superiors conspired to cover it up. "There's no doubt that the Marines allegedly involved in doing this--they lied about it," says Kline. "They certainly tried to cover it up." Three Marine officers, including the company commander and battalion commander, have been relieved of duty in part for actions related to the deaths in Haditha. A lawmaker who has been briefed on the matter says the investigations may implicate other senior officers.

Update: One of the Marines in the eye of the Haditha storm is Jeffrey R. Chessani, 42, of Colorado. On April 7, he was put on desk duty at Camp Pendleton.

Chessani and the two captains, Luke McConnell and James Kimber, are free to come and go from Camp Pendleton during the investigation, said Lt. Col. Sean Gibson, a spokesman for the Marines assigned to Central Command. The Tampa, Fla.- based command oversees joint operations in southwest Asia. "No charges have been preferred against anyone," Gibson said. "They are not in the judicial system yet."

Reportedly, Capt. Luke McConnell, Kilo Company commander and Kilo batallion commander were not on the scene at the time of the killings. India Company's Capt. James Kimber, also relieved of his duties, was involved in an unrelated incident.

ABC News reports:

ABC News has learned from sources close to the investigation that the ranking Marine in the group who entered the homes and is a focus of the investigation is 25-year-old Sgt. Frank Wuterich.

< Duke Lacrosse Case: More Details of Accuser's Changed Story | Remember the Dead, Honor the Living >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • The United States does better, at home and throughout the world, when freeing prisoners from concentration camps. What happened to that United States? This isn't good for anybody.

    Since the military is investigating, the facts aren't in yet - I think you're a little quick to jump on this story. Second, there's this from the Times story: "Four people who identified themselves as survivors of the killings in Haditha, including some who had never spoken publicly, described the killings to an Iraqi writer and historian who was recruited by The New York Times to travel to Haditha and interview survivors and witnesses of what military officials have said appear to be unjustified killings of two dozen Iraqis by marines." Note the "recruited by the Times" bit. If a non-media company pays for a story, how do you normally react to it? I trust the Marine Corps to get to the bottom of this far more than I trust the Times. If there were Marines involved in a massacre? Then they should be prosecuted to the fullest possible extent of the UCMJ. Let's see if we can get the facts before we prosecute them in public.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Sun May 28, 2006 at 10:47:12 PM EST
    The video describes her a "a young girl" Her name is Imam Walid and she is only ten years old. She deserves, at least, to be referred to by her name, and to be listened to:
    They killed old people, women and children... The INGs have stolen all the houses properties, including even children and women clothes. They closed all the roads to the town hospital, the wounded were left unattended. They killed women and children without any reason...
    Much if not all of her family is gone, and she has little else left, if anything, except grief and sorrow... and a deep hatred that may eat her alive from inside. She also has a quiet strength and dignity that should cause terror in the souls of any who would try to justify, excuse, or cover up this sickening event...
    John Murtha, appearing Sunday on ABC's "This Week," alleged a "cover-up" and said the fallout could be "worse than Abu Ghraib." But Sen. John Warner told ABC that there should be no rush to judgment about the matter. Warner compared the promised investigation to the Senate inquiry into the abuse of inmates at Iraq's notorious Abu Ghraib prison. "As chairman of the Armed Services Committee, I'll do exactly what we did with Abu Ghraib," he said. Sunday, May 28, 2006
    That's sure going to be an inspiring display of leadership, Mr. Warner... Tell us, how is that going to help Imam Walid, and the others in Haditha, and everywhere else in Iraq"? And how is that going to help restore trust in and respect for the US?
    When the Abu Ghraib scandal erupted, GOP leaders such as Sen. John W. Warner (Va.) loudly vowed to get to the bottom of the matter -- but once the bottom started to come into view late last year, Mr. Warner's demands for accountability ceased. Friday, July 29, 2005


    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Sun May 28, 2006 at 10:59:28 PM EST
    U.S. lawmakers have been told the investigation will be finished in about 30 days. But a Pentagon official said investigators believe marines committed unprovoked murder in the deaths of about two dozen people at Haditha in November. "What happened at Haditha appears to be outright murder," said Marc Garlasco of Human Rights Watch. more...


    As we saw forAbu Ghraib, JR has his talking points lined up. First it's "wait til the the facts come out." Once the facts come out it's either the "few bad apples" or "the terrorists deserved it" memes. How many replays of this horror show/circus do we have to sit through??

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sun May 28, 2006 at 11:05:25 PM EST
    Let's see if we can get the facts before we prosecute them in public. Tell that to Imam Walid, jr. I'm sure it will make her feel so much better...

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#7)
    by jondee on Mon May 29, 2006 at 12:03:47 AM EST
    Some young men, who have already seen and done more than any young man should see or do will hang for this, while the ruthless, coldly calculating cowards ultimatly responsible; the Bush's, Cheney's, Wolfowitz's and Ledeen's will make public statements conveying the great gravity of the moment and the need to carry on our grim resolve written by some fawning weasal from The Dartmouth Review and then beat a slime trail back under their umbrella of power. May they all burst like the festering pustules they are.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Mon May 29, 2006 at 02:18:32 AM EST
    Posted on Sun, May. 28, 2006 Iraqis respond to Haditha killings with silence By Nancy A. Youssef, Knight Ridder Newspapers
    BAGHDAD, Iraq - As one U.S. politician charged Sunday that U.S. Marines had murdered 24 Iraqi civilians last fall, and press reports seemed to support the claim, the story remained a non-starter in Iraq. ... didn't come up when Iraq's parliament met on Sunday. The talking heads on Iraqi television issued no new calls for a U.S. troop withdrawal, as often happens after U.S. forces are seen to have made big mistakes. Even local papers ran no stories about possible murder charges against some Marines allegedly involved in the Nov. 19 shootings. Senseless killings - whether at the hands of U.S. soldiers, criminal gangs or militias - have become everyday occurrences in Iraq, some residents explained. And the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, in which low-ranking U.S. troops suffered the consequences, convinced many Iraqis that when it comes to U.S. military justice, top leaders can get away with crimes they orchestrate. ... Murthada Abdel Rashid, 29, a Baghdad sandwich vendor, was beyond caring, however. "I am not surprised by what happened in Haditha because Americans are terrorists and killers. And this is the way of life now," he said. "I don't care if they punish the American soldiers because they cannot bring back the lives of the dead."
    It seems that resignation to "this is the way of life now" is the general Iraqi view of things like this now. The Iraq parliament doesn't talk about it, the Iraqi media doesn't talk about it, and the average Iraqi does not believe that the US is interested in pursuing any kind of justice, much less have any interest in seeing the killing stop...

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Mon May 29, 2006 at 02:20:17 AM EST
    A google news search on "Imam Walid"............. The MSM is doing their job I see.

    Sorry... I'm going to wait for the actual findings of this case before passing judgement, and I trust the Marine Corps more than the Times. There have been too many fake wedding-party "massacres" and such to give immediate credence to the idea that a bunch of marines executed two dozen civilians in cold blood... I'd advise caution before we get into too much moral preening and blanket condemnation. I'm not a Marine, but I've spent time in the field with them, and have found them to be a disciplined, mission-oriented bunch. Also, if (IF) this story is true, the Corps will certainly prosecute and purge these purported murderers from their ranks. Honor means everything to a Marine, and if these men indeed murdered innocent men, women, and children, then they dishonored God, Country, and Corps... don't expect much mercy for them.

    Let's indeed be not to quick to pass judgement but then again.....don't wait to long either. The fact that they are American doesn't grant them any special consideration nor the fact that they're marines. Anyone that thinks the following "Honor means everything to a Marine,..." should keep the following in mind : Oliver North wasn't just an American, he was , as the saying goes, an officer and a gentleman and on top of that he was a marine.

    Yes, of course, let's run this whole thing through another congressional "investigation." Two, three months from now, someone will say it was bad, but then not as bad as the press made it out to be. Now we must turn our attention to more serious matters, like, we gotta stay the course. We gotta stay the course until we achieve victory over the terrists. Uh-huh. But what I'd like to know is, what separates this yet-to-be-proven-beyond-a-reasonable-doubt "atrocity" from the original warmongering lies of Bush, Cheney, Rove and the rest of these cowardly fascist swine and their rubber-stamp apologists in the House and Senate? They're all traitors. Scum. And I keep going back to this, but I think the real tragedy the real crime is that solid third of the American electorate who actually think Bush and his cabal are doing "God's work." Traitors, all of them. And yet they're still walking around, grinning, smirking, holding press conferences, pretending everything is OK. Well, it's not. And if all these fascist swine and their boot-licking lackeys in Congress don't suffer a setback or total expulsion in November, then I'll seriously consider renouncing my US citizenship. I do not want to be a part of what America has become in these traitors' hands.

    You know what really got me? The bunny rabbit on the girls shirt. It's a shame when it takes a cartoon rabbit to make me realize our common humanity but there it is. Innocence lost.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Mon May 29, 2006 at 06:50:39 AM EST
    Freeborn children listen and see a new generation paying for you and me

    Don't be so blind or so deaf to the sights and sounds Americans have left,

    Let freedom scream in our ears and minds never forget those left behind.
    From "Forget Me Not", by Bill Chance Poetry & Prayers on usmemorialday{dot}org Remember Imam Walid.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#15)
    by Punchy on Mon May 29, 2006 at 06:50:52 AM EST
    Also, if (IF) this story is true, the Corps will certainly prosecute and purge these purported murderers from their ranks. I can't wait to see their punishment...demoted a rank, a $100 fine, desk duty. Call me cynical, but after what the Pat Tillman soliders got for repeatedly breaking rules and covering up the evidence, I'm betting the same will happen here. There's just NO...NONE..ZERO accountability by anyone doing anything anywhere in Bush's military.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#16)
    by aw on Mon May 29, 2006 at 07:34:49 AM EST
    Since the military is investigating, the facts aren't in yet - I think you're a little quick to jump on this story.
    This happened in November. Apparently they've been sitting on the evidence, the photographs since then. Just how long do you think they need to investigate?

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Mon May 29, 2006 at 07:54:07 AM EST
    Beef: The real disgrace of these so called examinations is that they never actually make there way to the root of the problems. Probably true, but hopefully not... In case Jeralyn deletes your link because it is not in HTML format, here it is again: A Matter of Honor September 28, 2005, Wasington Post

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 29, 2006 at 08:08:15 AM EST
    edger - What ever has happened to Imam Walid is sad. At the least she evidently was present in a fire fight. At worse she was present when some Marines lost control and violated the Rules of Engagement and killed civilians. If they did so then there is no difference between what they have done and what the terrorists have done all over the world. Beyond that there are huge differences that you seem to be incapable of understanding. We have Rules of Engagement. The terrorists do not. They routinely kill innocent women and children. Indeed it is the norm for them. Do we need to have a call of the dead? All those who died on 9/11 and in other places before and since then? Victims of people who kill in the name of God? Does this excuse the alleged killing by our troops? No. But it is helpful to remember that we did not fly airplanes into buildings in Mecca. It is helpful to remember that we do not even have a concept called "jihad." It is helpful to remember that our religious leaders do not have a document called "fatwa" that says what this one said: "Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders." We will investigate and, if found guilty, punish. The terrorists have no concept of this, and would, instead, celebrate the deaths. Your inability to recognize the differences is instructive to say the least.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Mon May 29, 2006 at 08:16:59 AM EST

    ppj -

    You seem to delight in infuriating people, and in being contrary. You seem to argue just for the sake of arguing. You seem to have a penchant for taking positions that are grossly immoral and disgusting. You seem to have no respect for other human beings or other cultures.

    I have some questions for you.

    Depending on whether and on how you answer, I may occassionally engage you again in future, or I may continue not responding to things you say. The only criteria I intend to use is is my own subjective judgement.

    • How does it feel to have arrived at a point where almost no one here has any respect for you, or even agrees with you on anything whether they respect you or not?

    • You seem to purposely work towards producing such reaction from others... Why?
    • You seem to believe that you somehow are the one man in a room full of the blind able to see truth. What is your basis for this belief?

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 29, 2006 at 08:21:49 AM EST
    Palcewski writes:
    ...if... then I'll seriously consider renouncing my US citizenship.
    Why the if? And why wait? The leading members of the Demo party, from Hillary to Kerry to Kennedy voted for us to invade. They will still be there, no matter what. So, why wait?

    Honor? There is no honor, truth or dignity left. GWB has removed it all and replaced it with a culture of secrecy and lies to cover his chain of command's responsibility. Honor will only be restored to the armed services when they demand it of their CiC.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#23)
    by james on Mon May 29, 2006 at 08:27:04 AM EST
    JR, etc: According to the AP the investigation is essentially complete. There are several marines in the brig for pre-trial confinement and others restricted to quarters. The AP, in a wire story today, notes that they are only waiting for the outcome of the investigation into whether the marines planted an AK-47 and a shovel on one guy they apparently executed and then branded an IED layer. Pre-trial confinement is usually to quarters, not to the brig. These guys were not just pulled back from Iraq pending the outcome of an investigation - they have a pretty clear idea what happened. Of course, if you'll read on this was their 3rd tour in Iraq and they were just out of Fallujah and had no desire to be in Anbar province. Rumsfield micromanages this war and probably thought 'gee, Haditha needs to be taught a lesson like Falluja - let's call in the marines'. The 'defence' that will be given in public by the senators, reps, talking heads, etc will be that they were put in a place of 90k people who all hated americans and who were 'giving aid' to the terrorists. And there is something to be said about that - these people were living among insurgents but it wasn't their choice and there was nothing they could do about it. I don't believe this is the only incident that's happened. Anyone find it odd that the other prominent investigation was only launched when the victim happened to be the cousin of the Iraqi amabassador to the US?

    I'll point this out again: "Four people who identified themselves as survivors of the killings in Haditha, including some who had never spoken publicly, described the killings to an Iraqi writer and historian who was recruited by The New York Times to travel to Haditha and interview survivors and witnesses of what military officials have said appear to be unjustified killings of two dozen Iraqis by marines." If a story started out: "described the problem to a writer and historian who was recruited by The Enron Company to travel to California and investigate the allegations of price gouging..." how much credence would you give it? There may have been a massacre. Then again, I have high levels of suspicion for a story that the Time paid to get, from a person they won't identify.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 29, 2006 at 08:35:55 AM EST
    edger - I feel fine this morning, although a bit queasy when I read your rantings. But, what, may I ask, is the cause of this ill tempered outburst? Did my questions hit a particualr sore spot? Did my pointing out that IF this has happened it did so illegally and will be punished, while these types of actions are the norm for the terrorists? Was it my pointing out that our religious system doesn't have "fatwas" calling for killing the infidels? In the event you actually have a true question rather than just wanting to try and taunt/instult, I will try and answer you this way. My point was simple. If the troops did it, they were wrong and will be punished. But the condemnation of our culture and our country that I routinely read is not justified, and if we lived under a Molsem government, you would not be tolerated.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#26)
    by aw on Mon May 29, 2006 at 08:47:53 AM EST
    In an unprecedented event, Gen. Michael Hagee, the Marine Corps commandant, has found it necessary to fly to Iraq to tell our best-trained troops to stop murdering civilians. The former terrible tyrant ruler of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, is on trial for killing 150 people. The U.S. government murdered 500,000 Iraqi children prior to Bush's invasion. When the U.S. government murders people, whether Serbs, Branch Davidians at Waco, or Iraqi women and children, it is "collateral damage." But we put Saddam Hussein on trial for putting down rebellions. Gentle reader, do you believe that the Bush Regime will not shoot you down in the streets if you have a rebellion? Paul Craig Roberts When we devalue the lives of others, we devalue all life, including our own. PPJ is the blind one.

    The reactions of the Bush apologists over the incident at Haditha highlights the rapid growth of denial and whitewashing from being just a small cottage industry into it's current role as a major defense enterprise.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Mon May 29, 2006 at 09:07:45 AM EST
    edger-
    It seems that resignation to "this is the way of life now" is the general Iraqi view of things like this now. The Iraq parliament doesn't talk about it, the Iraqi media doesn't talk about it, and the average Iraqi does not believe that the US is interested in pursuing any kind of justice, much less have any interest in seeing the killing stop...
    This sort of thing has been going on for two years + now. After making a big deal about things like having your house ransacked, men taken away, valuables stolen by american soldiers the Iraqis now take it for granted, that complaining will only cause more trouble. The 'let's wait 'till the evidence is out' crowd is delusional. This is business as usual in Iraq. Our soldiers hate the Iraqi's because they are so ungrateful for all we have done to them. TNG-
    There have been too many fake wedding-party "massacres" and such to give immediate credence to the idea that a bunch of marines executed two dozen civilians in cold blood...
    Fake wedding massacres????? None of them your relatives? Guess your disney world version of what we are doing in Iraq is air tight for you and your friends. Don't worry you will find those WMD's yet. Just keep the suntan lotion and the gin and tonic flowing. Stay tuned to FOX news they will keep you fat and happy.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#29)
    by aw on Mon May 29, 2006 at 09:20:54 AM EST
    Was it my pointing out that our religious system doesn't have "fatwas" calling for killing the infidels?
    Our religious system????? What is our religious system? This isn't even a question for you, PPJ. It is to point out the absurd mindset which you argue from. The reason it isn't a question is that I'm with edger. There is no point discussing anything with you. Everything boils down to how frightened you are of the "others" and how that justifies everything Bush does. WATB.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#30)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 29, 2006 at 09:49:12 AM EST
    My point was simple. If the troops did it, they were wrong and will be punished. But the condemnation of our culture and our country that I routinely read is not justified, and if we lived under a Molsem government, you would not be tolerated. If the troops did it, it was covered up at the highest levels, and only leaked out accidentally. That sounds to me a lot like it was "tolerated." Quick, how many US military have been convicted of killing Iraqis? Wow, tens of thousands of justified deaths! Every Iraqi or al Jazeera reporter killed by our military was a criminal or a terrorist, and we know this because... They're dead. The "investigation" started in November, and came to remarkably different conclusions than the photographic and eyewitness testimony. Apparently in November they hadn't found the marine who took photos with his cell phone of the executions, so the guy pictured seconds before his death kneeling with a gun at his back had been magically transformed into an "insurgent" firing RPGs. The kids who had been identified in the "investigation" as dying from IED shrapnel died instead from .222 rounds. Oops. I'm a veteran, and I do not know whether you are, but my overriding experience is that covering one's ass is far more important than exposing an unpleasant truth which reflects on one's command and might lead to a court martial. During your military service did you notice that embarrassing incidents were covered up, or immediately brought to light? If you served.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#31)
    by cpinva on Mon May 29, 2006 at 09:54:17 AM EST
    .............The leading members of the Demo party, from Hillary to Kerry to Kennedy voted for us to invade. They will still be there, no matter what.
    as usual jim, you leave out the pertinent parts. you conveniently neglected to note that these votes were made based on the lies and distortions of the bush administration, not on reality. oh, right, congress had access to all the same material that the admin had. wrong, of course. but then, you already knew that. if you didn't, come out of that cave once in a while, and join the rest of us. JR, as noted elsewhere, the "incident" purportedly occured in nov. 2005, not last week. that would be roughly six months ago. not to be picky or anything, but exactly how long do think it should take, realistically, for the marine corps to have investigated this? especially since they got wind of it shortly after it allegedly happened? i have no clue what, if anything, happened at haditha. i do expect much quicker investigations though. this isn't the jungles of vietnam, and we supposedly control the entire country. supposedly. atrocities are committed in every war, by all sides. however, we are supposed to be better than that, or so we say. when allegations arise, we have an obligation, to all the parties, to investigate them as quickly and openly as possible.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#32)
    by aw on Mon May 29, 2006 at 09:54:52 AM EST
    He served in Naval Aviation, he says. He never says what he actually did. My guess is he was punching down phones.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#33)
    by Aaron on Mon May 29, 2006 at 09:57:35 AM EST
    I hold myself personally responsible for this Sh-t, just as every true American should hold themselves responsible and be ashamed. Desperately F--king ashamed! I don't like being ashamed of my country and the people who are running it, or the people in my military. But ultimately I've gotta be the one accepting responsible for this barbaric slaughter of human beings. There are no excuses or passing the buck on this one. I'm beginning to believe that people like myself (citizens of the United States) don't deserve freedom or security, I'm beginning to think we deserve to pay for our crimes. And I have no doubt that pay we will. If I were an Iraqi, and I watched this video, coupled with living in that horror every day, I'd be ready to fight America right now. I wonder how many Muslims who were on the fence politically and then watch this little girl, can still say to themselves, "America is our friend?" I'd say they'd have to be pretty hard-core US supporters, to say the least. I wonder how many more suicide bombers such incidents generate. I'll bet you could break it down to an exact number of individuals who collectively just made their choice to strap on explosives and go looking for Americans. Even if 99.9% of American military personnel are acting out honorably as General Peter Pace just stated on CNN, such things create whole legions of new enemies. I guess the journalists Kimberly Dozier, James Brolan and Paul Douglas killed in Iraq, just weren't paying enough attention to the good news. Those darn journalists getting themselves killed just so they can make bad news. There are no length to which these liberals will not go.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Mon May 29, 2006 at 10:10:35 AM EST
    Aaron- With all due respect I think you are exaggerating the significance of this event for Iraqis. This will not start a 'riot' in Iraq or inspire a new crop of suicide bombers. Things like this have been going on there on a regular daily basis for a long time now. The only thing new about this atrocity is that America is getting it on the front page. The only fence sitters that this will affect are Americans. There are no Iraqi fence sitters left.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#35)
    by Bill Arnett on Mon May 29, 2006 at 10:32:20 AM EST
    "Does this excuse the alleged killing by our troops? No. But it is helpful to remember that we did not fly airplanes into buildings in Mecca. It is helpful to remember that we do not even have a concept called "jihad." JimakaPPJ PPJ- This is where the pretense to morality in your argument falls flat - utterly and completely. No we didn't fly airplanes into Mecca (and perhaps kill a couple of thousand people). We used "shock and awe" to start an illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation so contained that it could not possibly pose a threat to us. We did so based on lies, political stunts, a sham "coalition of the willing", and the fighting, kidnapping, rendition, torture and unjustified deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis, men, women, and children has continued unabated BY AMERICAN FORCES. And it was done because Saddam wouldn't "give up" the WMDs he didn't have and was not making. The inability to prove a negative (When did you stop beating your wife and kids. PPJ?) served as sufficient excuse to kill thousands. I reject this as a moral justification for war, and if you don't, at least don't pretend morality where none exists. We do not have a concept called "jihad". Absolutely correct, making our actions even more inexplicable, repugnant, and amoral. We cannot legitimately claim that we acted upon recognized religious beliefs, even though King George, early on, referred to his "mission from god" and his "crusade" in the Middle East. So again, any pretense to moral authority is just that: pretense, and at this stage no longer believed even by the people who started this war. When an amoral leader starts an amoral war, espouses amoral positions regarding treaties, human rights, torture, and a blatantly amoral belief in "preemptive" wars of aggression (as determined at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII), then soldiers, ever-learning from and by the examples set for them by their leaders, will come to understand that amoral conduct is now the norm and acceptable, and that the government will "cover-up" their misdeeds, delay and obfuscate any investigation, and that even though those giving the orders aren't punished, their own punishment will be light because everyone knows they were only following the example set for them. Fortunately, the majority of our soldiers recognize amorality when they see it and refuse to participate. So, sorry PPJ, I don't buy your premise or your pretense to morality. You do come here to make provocative statements while hoping no one will see the fallacy of your supposed logic. This will be all I have to say for now. I extend my sympathies to you.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#36)
    by Aaron on Mon May 29, 2006 at 10:50:56 AM EST
    Squeaky I think you're underestimating the situation. The difference in comparison to all the other reports of atrocities in Iraq, is that we have a child survivor of that atrocity telling her story, coupled with an apparent large cover up. You can't screw up much worse than that. If this little girl hadn't survived, perhaps we never would've heard anything more about it. But now it's all around the world on every new service there is, and even if it turned out not to be true it wouldn't matter at this point. It's a massive blow.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Mon May 29, 2006 at 10:59:00 AM EST
    Aaron-
    I think you're underestimating the situation. The difference in comparison to all the other reports of atrocities in Iraq....
    I agree that this story has been picked up and will have powerful reverberations outside of Iraq. In Iraq it is business as usual. A common occurrence. American brutality is already legendary among the Iraqi populace.

    James Robertson, that's certainly an original approach. Reporters can be assumed to be biased because they're not working for free? And Enron investigating price gouging is somehow parallel to the NY Times investigating a massacre? I'm afraid I don't follow the logic there, unless you're saying that the NY Times has been massacring Iraqis.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Mon May 29, 2006 at 11:09:42 AM EST
    Aaron-Here is a quote from a reuters article:
    Word that U.S. Marines may have killed two dozen Iraqi civilians in "cold-blooded" revenge after an insurgent attack has shocked Americans but many Iraqis shrug it off as an every day fact of life under occupation.
    And there are more from Swopa via Mike's Blog Round Up at C&L.

    This tragedy is worse than Nam. The military message is so corrupted and confused by politics that it doesn't make sense to the enlisted anymore. What happened was simply wrong but is also uncomplicated for a veteran to understand how we got there. Purposefully destroy the militaries very straight forward tried and true rules of engagement. Take some Bush instructions, which are illogical, immoral and confusing to begin with. Send them through the machinations of the chain of command starting with Cheney and Rumsfeld. Guess what comes out? The nightmares of Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Falluga, and Haditha for starters. Considering the torture debacle, I'm sure these young men will be paying dearly for their calamity as well as for all the catastrophic mistakes of every ass kissing swingin dick above them. The real disgrace of these so called examinations is that they never actually make there way to the root of the problems. This administration has immorally misused and systematically destroyed our highly tuned professional military machine which sadly will take billions of dollars and decades to repair. The following link is one of the better publicized cries for help which of course will never happen on Bush's watch:

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#41)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 29, 2006 at 11:27:36 AM EST
    We have Rules of Engagement. The terrorists do not Then why did Bush dispatch the head of the Marines to go over there to tell his men to stop murdering people? My point was simple. If the troops did it, they were wrong and will be punished Simple because your more complex points are look like the doors to the Haditha homes. Full of holes. The crucible of information has spoken. Reduce it to "if someting bad happened then..." This isn't geometry. You again insult the intelligence of those here by declaring that "they kill too!". Then you use an unrelated attack (9/11) for comparison, and toss in an imaginary one on Mecca to justify our whole mission. Only a true racist would combine the stories of 9/11 and Iraq in order to clarify, or, in your case justify, the apparent cold blooded murders of Iraqi (and Afghani) children.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Mon May 29, 2006 at 12:30:23 PM EST
    Or, at the very least located pertinant passages in the Buddhist sutras that prove the gooks dont value human life has highly as right wing republicans do.
    In fact since their vision of the afterlife include eternal bliss etc, it proves that we were doing them a favor.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Mon May 29, 2006 at 12:40:47 PM EST
    Maybe the suprisingly articulate Imperial Wizard has some words of wisdom that will cast all of this in a fresh light..

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#46)
    by soccerdad on Mon May 29, 2006 at 01:40:09 PM EST
    The killing of these peope is not an isolated incident as has been well documented primarily in the European press because of our gutless corporate media we dont have o read about it. The atrocites at fallujah, the use of illegal weapons and inappropiate use of weapons in civilan areas have all been well documented. The continued shooting of civilians at checkpoints and those that happen too close to a convoy has been documented as has the killing of wounded Iraqis. Its all been laid out but the blind refuse to see and spin their relative moralistic racist fanatsy so that they can sleep at night thinking that the US never does anything wrong despite hundreds of years of evidence to the countrary. Note it is almost always those in power who commit or directly cause others to commit these heinous crimes. If our leaders really did reflect the average American and their values none of this would have happened. But being such good people they are easy to dupe because they want to believe in their country.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#47)
    by Jo on Mon May 29, 2006 at 01:41:35 PM EST
    PPJ, You said (basically):
    If .. some Marines lost control and violated the Rules of Engagement and killed civilians ... then there is no difference between what they have done and what the terrorists have done all over the world ... The terrorists ... routinely kill innocent women and children.
    I've tried my best not to muddle your message here. But then you go on to talk about the "fatwa" and "jihad" and flying planes into buildings, and finish up with:
    We will investigate and, if found guilty, punish. The terrorists have no concept of this ... Your inability to recognize the differences is instructive to say the least.
    But there was obviously a significant attempt to cover-up this situation. Did the U.S. bring this to light so they could investigate and punish those responsible? Or is the investigation and possibly resultant punishment just a face-saving manoeuver by the military because the whistle has been blown? If it had not been brought to light, I don't think there would be any investigation of punishment for those involved. This smells a lot like the Abu Graib situation, and I'm having trouble determining the "differences" which you seem to be arguing should be readily apparent.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 29, 2006 at 02:03:15 PM EST
    Jondee, Bigunit12..... Glad to see the trolls have arrived. Do you have a point, I mean, besides PPJ is evil? Please, we've heard that all before. Che you wrote:
    or, in your case justify, the apparent cold blooded murders
    What is it about the following statement you are incapable of understanding?
    We will investigate and, if found guilty, punish. The terrorists have no concept of this, and would, instead, celebrate the deaths.
    Or what did you not understand about this?
    Did some do wrong? Yes. But then, as I know it is true now, wrong doing was not acceptable.
    Shall we wait for an open thread someday and discuss your namesake? You write:
    Then why did Bush dispatch the head of the Marines
    First, none of us know what was said. I would guess it was to restate what we know, and that is: We have Rules of Engagement. The terrorists do not. Now, what is your next question?? BTW - Do you claim that if 9/11 had not happened we would be in Iraq? Pardon me, but I must find a chair. That lack of logic leaves me breathless. Bill Arnett - Sorry I missed you, but it has been busy, busy, busy. Let me brief. Your position is that the war is illegal, thus all that stems from it is illegal. Since your assumption is wrong, all that stems from it is wrong. Aaron writes:
    or the people in my military.
    Know what? It isn't "your military." You gave up that relationship when you, or your predecessors on the Left, refused to serve. You write:
    If I were an Iraqi, and I watched this video, coupled with living in that horror every day, I'd be ready to fight America right now.
    Then why didn't you volunteer after 9/11? Is there a living person who didn't see 9/11? At the very least why didn't you enlist to fight in Afghaistan?

    ppj, what did Iraq have to do with 9/11? What did the innocent murdered childred have to do with terrorists? You lie so much, you're starting to believe your own lies. In this thread you spent about one line on the murdered civbilians and the rest of your points were for justifying what happened. Like aaron if I was in Iraq, I also would be fighting with the Iraqi freedom fighters. Freedom fighters is what they are since they were a sovereign nation who did not attack or plan to attack the us. also be fighting with the Iraqi freedom fighters.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 29, 2006 at 02:52:45 PM EST
    Jo - I have not addressed the issue of was there/was there not an attempt at cover up. If so, it was unsuccessful, and the people involved will pay the price. Beyond that, there is a significant difference between what the Marines are accused of, and what the terrorist routinely do. The Marines are accused of killing, but doing so after a loss of control. The acts themselves were not planned. They did not go on patrol seeking to kill civilians. If I have failed to make that point clear, let me now do so. The terrorists, on the other hand, routinely attack civilians. Men, women and children. It is what they do. Kill in cold, premeditated blood. It is what they are. They hated the US before 9/11 when we had no troops in Afghanistan, and when we had no troops in any country that were not guests of the country's government. That they found that offensive speaks to what should have been their quarrel with that government, not with the US. And all we have to do is return to OBL's own words of March 1997 to see this.
    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ? BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    As for Abu Graib, one of the few facts that no one seems interested in is that the military was investigating months before the media became involved. Should they have announced the start of the investigation? Perhaps, but an early announcement could have been counterproductive to the investigation itself.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 29, 2006 at 02:58:51 PM EST
    bigunit12 - If you cannot make the connection betweem 9/11 and our presence in Iraq - be that presence right or wrong - then I know of nothing that will help, but let me try. IF 9/11 HAD NOT HAVE HAPPENED DO YOU THINK WE WOULD NOW BE IN IRAQ? BTW - That you would be fighting against our troops is no surprise, but thanks for confirming it in writing. You wrote:
    if I was in Iraq, I also would be fighting with the Iraqi freedom fighters.
    And no, they are terrorists.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Mon May 29, 2006 at 03:04:22 PM EST
    ppj - "Know what, it isnt your military" Or his government or his country either I suppose. He didnt "give up that right" any more than you did when you ducked out on every fight that you so badly wanted to be fought - by others. But then, you might not have been able to snuggle-up later in life with the other chickenhawks and profiteers if you hadnt. We all must sacrifice for the cause.

    jim, just for arguments sake, let's say Iraq was the big, powerful country and the us was small. If Iraq attacked us, would we be terrorist for fighting back?

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#55)
    by squeaky on Mon May 29, 2006 at 03:21:29 PM EST
    The terrorists, on the other hand, routinely attack civilians. Men, women and children. It is what they do. Kill in cold, premeditated blood.
    Yes and the cold blooded killing from high up in the sky is just fine and dandy. Why is it that all those Bush has 'liberated' now hate Americans. The massacres are not limited to Iraq:
    Patience with the 23,000 U.S. soldiers and other foreign troops in Afghanistan is fraying over recent deaths of civilians, including at least 16 people killed by an airstrike targeting Taliban fighters in a village last week. "We don't want Americans in our country. They don't care about poor people. They killed innocent people today and this is not the first time," said Abdul Shakoor, a 28-year-old who joined in the protests after Monday's traffic accident. "They do it all the time and in the end they say it was a mistake. It's not acceptable to us anymore."
    link Do you believe that these are primitive people who just do not know what is good for them? PPJ easily rationalizes civilian death at the hand of the US as collateral damage while the Iraqi resistance fighters who are engaged in a civil war propagated and nourished by the US are engaged in senseless cold blooded killing. What did the Iraqi's do to you that you would so relish their spilled blood?

    Squeaky, I don't know if you read that link I had up in another thread that described Bush as a passive serial killer.Passive serial kiilers have a bloodlust, but want others to do the killing for them, because of cowardice. I believe this to be true of ppj.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jo on Mon May 29, 2006 at 03:39:51 PM EST
    IF 9/11 HAD NOT HAVE HAPPENED DO YOU THINK WE WOULD NOW BE IN IRAQ?
    Probably. US plotted Iraq invasion long before 9/11 plans for war and for Iraq's oil before the 9/11 attacks

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#58)
    by soccerdad on Mon May 29, 2006 at 03:41:34 PM EST
    The king of moral relativism spins his fantasies fueled by racism and American exceptionalism. Tell us what is exactlty the difference between what the terrorist do and dropping cluster bombs on civilian neighborhoods. Or tell us what is the essential moral difference between what you call terrorists and using Napalm on Fallujah. and now you will balther on about intentions etc, once again depending on moral relativism. For the uninitiated moral relativism in the hands of ppj means we did it its good they did it its bad. Morally bankrupt

    Bush was talking about Iraq during the 2000 campaign, and I have no doubt he'd have tried his best to find a reason to attack Iraq even if 9/11 had never happened. It's possible the administration wouldn't have been able to get the Congress and the public to go along enough to actually pull it off, but they'd certainly have given it a good shot, probably with the same arguments about WMDs and 45-minute threats. So, yes, I believe it's possible we'd be in Iraq now without 9/11.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#60)
    by soccerdad on Mon May 29, 2006 at 03:46:46 PM EST
    PPJ easily rationalizes civilian death at the hand of the US as collateral damage
    \\well lets be fair, ppj sees them as an inferior culture still living in the 8th century practicising an evil religion. They should get with the program adopt christianity so they can hate homosexuals, buy some cluster bombs so thet can drop them on civilians and maybe throw in some napalm. And if they really were with the times their military would be developed to the point where they could invade any country that had what they wanted.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#61)
    by aw on Mon May 29, 2006 at 03:51:07 PM EST
    IF 9/11 HAD NOT HAVE HAPPENED DO YOU THINK WE WOULD NOW BE IN IRAQ? Why yes, I do. That was W's plan from day one. Also see PNAC, Project for a New American Century. The neocons wrote a letter to Clinton, urging him to attack Iraq as well. P.S. I guessed right didn't I? You were a phone installer or maybe a cable puller in the Navy. I didn't serve, no. I'm hard of hearing (courtesy of big pharma and the FDA). They wouldn't have taken me.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#62)
    by soccerdad on Mon May 29, 2006 at 03:53:35 PM EST
    Yeh we can really trust the US to make sure justice is done Link

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#63)
    by squeaky on Mon May 29, 2006 at 03:58:53 PM EST
    bigunit12-Yes I did read that, thanks. I agree.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#64)
    by Jo on Mon May 29, 2006 at 04:01:40 PM EST
    Private First Class Brand was convicted of assault, maiming, maltreatment and making a false official statement. He was reduced in rank to private. Seems kind of harsh for someone who just assaulted, maltreated, maimed, and lied about it. I hope they aren't this strict with the fun-loving lads from Haditha.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Mon May 29, 2006 at 04:03:46 PM EST
    The new goal is blowing all those hearts and minds to bits rather than just "winning them over." Hey, from the air it almost looks like a ticker tape welcoming parade. Mission Accomplished.

    aw to ppj:
    I'm with edger. There is no point discussing anything with you. Everything boils down to how frightened you are of the "others" and how that justifies everything Bush does. WATB.
    Hear! Hear! Another thread has now been filled with ppj's ranting, and what good has it done? He and his faulty logic will be back to provoke us again tomorrow. Just treat him like Fox News, and hit your mental mute button.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#67)
    by jondee on Mon May 29, 2006 at 04:32:54 PM EST
    In the final analysis, those folks just came into contact with a more advanced civilisation; "The Contested Middle East" will be coming out soon and then you can all read all about it - those of you that still enjoy the rights of full citizenship and havnt been rounded-up, that is.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 29, 2006 at 05:32:18 PM EST
    Jo - The US has war plans to invade many countries, England is probably included. As for O'Neil, given his background, I would have no doubt that he would be surprised to learn that we have things called "War Plans." But what I really find fascinating about your comment is that you don't mention and the fact that it was only a little over 33 months prior to 9/11. One might think that Saddam was carrying a grudge, wouldn't one? But seriously. Do you think that Bush could have talked the US into invading Iraq without 9/11? If you do, I have a bridge for sale and some excellent tin hat polish. ;-) Cymro writes:
    Just treat him like Fox News, and hit your mental mute button.
    You have a mental.....? Who knew?? aw - Sorry about your problem. But let's be blunt. Your knowledge then, of the military, is limited to what you have been told, read and seen on TV with, perhaps, a small amount of actual exposure. Nothing wrong with that, but you should admit that your opinions are based on second hand information. May I assume that you desire to volunteer to fight with the terrorists is strictly rhetorical, although their physical qualifications may not be as strict as the US. Jondee writes:
    But then, you might not have been able to snuggle-up later in life with the other chickenhawks and profiteers if you hadnt.
    Chickennhawks? Pofiteers? Can you do no better? Maybe you should start reading some of those 219,000 Google hits. BTW - "civilisation;" Are you English? Canadian? Well, that would explain your complete misunderstanding of US Red State culture. BigUnit12 writes:
    I believe this to be true of ppj.
    And I know this to be true of you, because you wrote it:
    if I was in Iraq, I also would be fighting with the Iraqi freedom fighters.
    You seem to forget that Iraq has formed its own government. I know, details, details, details. SD - Got any proof with that or are you just making things up, again???? et al - Well, I see that BigUnit12, Jondee, SD, etc., have arrived and turned a decent discussion into a series of personal attacks. Time to say Ta, Ta and take a stroll around the palatial retirement compound and enjoy my garden. The tomatoe plants are loaded and the okra should provide enough for even ye olde okra gourmet, PPJ.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edger on Mon May 29, 2006 at 05:35:23 PM EST
    I feel fine this morning, although a bit queasy when I read your rantings. Something like I did when I watched Imam Walid tell us how her world ended as she watched American Marines murdering her family? Queasy is good. It's a start for you. It's your body telling you something it knows but that you refuse to listen to. Sick to your stomach and unable to stand looking in a mirror would have been better. But, queasy is a start...
    She also has a quiet strength and dignity that should cause terror in the souls of any who would try to justify, excuse, or cover up this sickening event...
    Give her a call and give her all your excuses.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Mon May 29, 2006 at 05:43:47 PM EST
    "Your complete misunderstanding of red state culture" Yeah, though something about "Strange Fruit swingin in the breeze" comes back to me.. All I know about red (and blue) state culture is that there are good people and as*holes in every state, and I didnt need to read a book by down-home country gal Ann Coulter to tell me that.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#71)
    by Edger on Mon May 29, 2006 at 05:50:43 PM EST
    I feel fine this morning, although a bit queasy when I read your rantings. The next time you pass a ten year old girl on the street imagine she is Imam Walid, look her in the eye, and tell her how queasy you feel. Ask her if it makes any difference to her. Somehow I doubt she would have any difficulty looking you in the eye as she answered you. Now tell us here what you would say to her if she was standing in front of you now...

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#72)
    by soccerdad on Mon May 29, 2006 at 05:51:37 PM EST
    poor little baby - going take his ball and go home. Typical bully

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#73)
    by Jo on Mon May 29, 2006 at 06:02:25 PM EST
    One might think that Saddam was carrying a grudge, wouldn't one?
    Only if one thought that Saddam was responsible for 9/11, but I was told it was Al Qaeda. (or am I misunderstanding your point?)

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#74)
    by Edger on Mon May 29, 2006 at 06:09:45 PM EST
    And they came from everywhere
    To the great divide
    Seeking a place to stand
    Or a place to hide
    --The Last Resort

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 29, 2006 at 06:56:06 PM EST
    Aw, the stroll was refreshing, even if the humidity is very high, but old joints and old bones do like a steam bath. I especially love the quiet of evening tide. It does remind of things to come. Now, where to begin. Jo - My point was that Saddam had to be the number one suspect, at least to all the top level Demos, Repubs and the associated world wide intelligence agencies. Would you like a quote?
    "(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003
    If you want more, I have many. Now I know. I know. That stupid ole Bush, that dimmest light bulb on the tree. That inventor of words the Left doesn't like... The one has no nuances...Yes, dumb ole George. He outsmarted all of those brilliant Demos. I mean all of them. The point, dear Jo, is that everyone, and I mean everyone, thought Saddam had WMD's, and believed he was involved in 9/11. Some of us are rational enough to still understand his involvement. edger - The queasy feeling is what I get when I realize you view all of this as logical thinking. I really don't know whether to laugh or cry. SD - I'm bacccckkkkkkk! Got an actual comment? Jondee - Why is it that you always gravitate towards some sexual reference, or some "frighten" reference? Something you want to tell us? Look. Sex is natural and healthy. Domination fantasy is just one of many.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#76)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 29, 2006 at 07:21:02 PM EST
    IF 9/11 HAD NOT HAVE HAPPENED DO YOU THINK WE WOULD NOW BE IN IRAQ? Of course. The plan for invading Iraq was presented five years before 9/11, so one can hardly claim it was the result. Help me here. What is the connection between 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq? Shouldn't we have invaded the country where the attackers came from?

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Mon May 29, 2006 at 07:22:07 PM EST
    ppj - Something tells me you need to "get out" a little more. Strange Fruit is a song about certain aspects of "red state culture" and swift justice that you and Ann want to do away in the U.S and import to Iraq. And I never saw a sicker version of "domination fantasy" than shock'n awe and regime change.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Mon May 29, 2006 at 07:28:38 PM EST
    And there is something I want to tell everyone. I suspect Jim and Jeff Gannon are the same person.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#79)
    by Andreas on Mon May 29, 2006 at 08:04:14 PM EST
    Repack Rider asked: "What is the connection between 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq?" 9/11 happened to enable US imperialism to invade Iraq.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#80)
    by squeaky on Mon May 29, 2006 at 08:16:29 PM EST
    I suspect Jim and Jeff Gannon are the same person.
    these guys seem to think so.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 29, 2006 at 08:19:56 PM EST
    Jondee - Well, I do declare. Guess I am just not up to date on youall's music. I should have known you would be playing the race card. My apologies for not judging you on your past performances. BTW - Kiss and tell. You're just mad that Jeff likes me better. Repack - The issue isn't the reality, or not, of a plan. We can all agree that war plans of all type exist. The question isn't whether we should have, or not. The question isn't whther or not we should have invaded SA. The question is, WITHOUT 9/11 WOULD WE NOW BE IN IRAQ? If you say yes, you are positing that Bush could have presauded the American people to INVADE, not bomb as Clinton did. Got facts??

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Mon May 29, 2006 at 08:25:53 PM EST
    Squeaky - Well I figured if they ever got together thats what his name would be. Thank God for social liberalism.

    TheNewGuy sez...
    I'd advise caution before we get into too much moral preening
    Hey, it's too bad you don't follow your own advice. PPJ asks...
    The question is, WITHOUT 9/11 WOULD WE NOW BE IN IRAQ?
    I guess this question was in response to the question: What did Iraq have to do with 9/11? As we already know, Bush exploited the tragic deaths of 2,800 people on 9/11 by invading Iraq, a country not involved in 9/11. So ultimately, yet more innocent people have died for this deception. Thanks for making the point, again.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#84)
    by Repack Rider on Tue May 30, 2006 at 12:47:43 AM EST
    Repack - The issue isn't the reality, or not, of a plan. We can all agree that war plans of all type exist. The question isn't whether we should have, or not. What did we get for our money and the tens of thousands of dead people? Whose lives have we improved? If we had spent the $200 billion on building stuff instead of destroying stuff, would that have been a better use of the money? For the hard of hearing. THE INVASION OF IRAQ WAS THE WORST STRATEGIC, ECONOMIC, AND POLITICAL DECISION IN AMERICAN HISTORY. George W. Bush is a narcissistic sociopath, and this is what you get when you give a sociopath the ability to kill lots of people. This is the guy who set execution records in TEXAS, and mocked those he condemned to death. Make no mistake, if he had the unchecked power that Stalin had, and he is certainly working on getting it, he would be killing millions of people instead of thousands. Do I make myself clear?

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edger on Tue May 30, 2006 at 04:11:01 AM EST
    Repack, he does not care one whit whether you you make yourself clear, and all of your attempts to get anything to sink in to him are wasted, unfortunately. His response to this suggestion:
    The next time you pass a ten year old girl on the street imagine she is Imam Walid, look her in the eye, and tell her how queasy you feel. ... Now tell us here what you would say to her if she was standing in front of you now...
    Was this complete non answer:
    edger - The queasy feeling is what I get when I realize you view all of this as logical thinking. I really don't know whether to laugh or cry.
    He is not here for rational debate or discussion. When he reads your comments I believe he either sees only words on a screen but has no meaningful understanding that there is a human being behind them, or that it simply has no significance for him. He is toying with you, not debating - hence the constant shifting and diverting. While you, like everyone else, are here to discuss, exchange ideas, teach, and learn... he is here to play a video game. Other commenters are not people to interact with and learn from - just targets to shoot at.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:03:43 AM EST
    edger - I rarely answer questions that are clearly designed to attack and further someone's agenda. Why should I? How about debating honestly? Here, let me ask you some and in doing so, expose your tactics. edger, what do you say to those who watched their loved ones jump from the World Trade Center towers? What do you say to those who had loved ones on board UAL93? Have you ever seen, close up, an aircraft crash, and what pieces of sharp metal do to human flesh? Now, if you want to debate, do so. But don't play games and try to cloak yourself in "I'm better because I hurt for them." It doesn't work. Repack - Nice rant. Clearer still. You are a Bush hater. No problem, and no logic. But what does that have to do towards proving that Bush could have invaded Iraq had not 9/11 happened. Of course he could not. Everyone knows that. But, if you have some facts..... Ernesto - The question stands on its own, without any bickering or claiming. You don't even address it. The rest of your comment is standard BHAW.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#87)
    by Edger on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:09:54 AM EST
    I rarely answer questions that are clearly designed to attack and further someone's agenda. Why should I? In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is about Imam Walid. Not about you. How about debating honestly? Now tell us here what you would say to her if she was standing in front of you now...

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#88)
    by soccerdad on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:22:25 AM EST
    edger - I rarely answer questions that are clearly designed to attack and further someone's agenda. Why should I? How about debating honestly?
    ATTENTION ATTENTION New record heights of hypocrisy have been reached. Somebody call the World Records people we may have a winner.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#89)
    by Edger on Tue May 30, 2006 at 08:03:55 AM EST
    ppj - I said earlier that I may occassionally engage you again in future, or I may continue not responding to things you say. The only criteria I intend to use is is my own subjective judgement. Your comments in this thread have been enlightening in a dark way, and made it quite clear that, as I and many others here had previously concluded, there is no point in engaging you. I believe that you are here only to play a video game, and that for you other commenters are not people to interact with and learn from - just targets to shoot at. Have a nice life... ================= Imam Walid - I would say that I am very sorry that you have had to suffer the loss of your family to outright murder by American Marines, and the loss of your country to the greed of the people who sent them to your town. I want you to know, though it probably means little if anything to you now, that there are many, many people, in fact the vast majority of people in America, who did not want to attack your country and that want the armies sent their in their name to leave, as soon as possible. Though you understandably probably would not accept it, I would like to see the American government offer to support you for what remains of your life. Even more so, I, and many others I believe, would have preferred that the hundreds of billions of dollars of their money that has been spent occupying your country had instead been spent rebuilding your country after the ouster of Saddam Hussein, and that the American armies had been withdrawn after that objective had been acheived.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#90)
    by aw on Tue May 30, 2006 at 08:06:12 AM EST
    But let's be blunt. Your knowledge then, of the military, is limited to what you have been told, read and seen on TV with, perhaps, a small amount of actual exposure. Nothing wrong with that, but you should admit that your opinions are based on second hand information.
    PPJ has been very coy about his stint in "Naval Aviation." He seems to claim this makes him qualified to speak about any and all military and war matters. Why doesn't he say what his actual military experience involved? If he has war experience, why doesn't he say so?

    Bill Arnett... And it was done because Saddam wouldn't "give up" the WMDs he didn't have and was not making. Why is it you guys keep harping on the same old stuff ... that you know is not factual? We All know that Saddam had WMDs because he actually used them on his own people. Do you remember that? Where you around then? Will you at least agree with that fact? Then...knowing this to be true... all the Dems, from Hillary & Teddy, right up to Mr. John Kerry... ALL said that Saddam had to go. (a small FACT you all seem to overlook at every opportunity) He was not only dangerous to the M.E. (he had already tried to invade Kuwait... remember that?), but he was also a threat to the US, if for no other reason that if he did develop nukes, he'd be more than happy to sell (give?) them to our enemies. Another mistake I think you all make is to constantly say.. "What did Iraq have to do with 9/11"? You are all under the false impression that this is a conventional war and is about countries and/or politics... it isn't! It's about ideologies...it's about religious fanaticism. It's about people that want to 'terrorize' the rest of the world into believing what they do. They want Islam to rule over all others. The bottom line is that if you are not a believer in radical Islam.. you're an "infidel" and must die. Therefore, anyone that rewards, harbors, trains...etc... these radicals is also a terrorist. It has nothing to do with a particular country. Saddam and many others (IE - the new leader of Iran) fall into that category. I don't know why all you guys find that so hard to conceptualize? I'm not trying to be snarky here. It's a legitimate question. We are in the middle of WWIII and most of you are more concerned with how we treat our enemies than our very survival. What's up with that?

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#92)
    by Edger on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:11:55 AM EST
    BB - Your entire post above is off topic. This thread is about the murder of Imam Walid's family by US Marines.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#93)
    by Jo on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:35:34 AM EST
    ...it's about religious fanaticism. It's about people that want to 'terrorize' the rest of the world into believing what they do.
    I think this is what some people are afraid of, but it isn't the Muslims who are doing all the terrorizing.
    ... if you are not a believer in radical Islam.. you're an "infidel"
    In English, that's, "You're either with us or against us ...". Sound familiar?
    ... more concerned with how we treat our enemies than our very survival.
    Churchill said, "If you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite". What part of our survival is dependant on our humiliating, brutalizing, torturing, and killing people against whom we can't/wont make criminal charges? Somehow calling them "enemy combatants" gives us the right to be inhumane? What part of our survival required us to kill Imam Walid's family? If by survival you mean the morality of our culture, our thirst for truth, justice and freedom, and our place in the universe as the symbol of human rights, then we may be winning the physical battles but we are fast losing the spiritual war.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#94)
    by Bill Arnett on Tue May 30, 2006 at 11:44:52 AM EST
    "Bill Arnett - Sorry I missed you, but it has been busy, busy, busy. Let me brief. Your position is that the war is illegal, thus all that stems from it is illegal. Since your assumption is wrong, all that stems from it is wrong." PPJ Oh, how easy to dismiss that which you are not capable of understanding. My argument is not just that this war is illegal. (you DO know that Japan tried the "we had to strike first before the U.S. attacked us" defense at the Nuremberg trials, where it was flatly rejected and their attack was ruled a "war of illegal aggression" don't you? This would satisfy any reasonable person a prima facie case that Bush's War is also illegal, but why bother to take facts, history, and law into consideration when you are morally bankrupt.) No, my argument is that this is a totally amoral war being directed by totally amoral dirt-bags like Bushco and his Republican Guards, who possess no humanistic traits at all. I won't make any further effort to disabuse you of the ignorance you display for I am sure, in your case, that ignorance IS bliss. BTW- for those inquiring as to what PPJ actually did in the military, Naval Aviation means flight crews, loadmasters, navigators, etc, but NOT that he was a Naval Aviator, a pilot. Navy pilots are very quick to point out the difference. And yes, I served in Vietnam, I've picked up the dead bodies of those killed in plane crashes, by enemy fire, by friendly fire, and I packed a gun in service of this country for eight years. My service in that war zone, the last chemical war executed by America, was rewarded with Agent Orange exposure, multiple cancers, months of chemo, weeks of radiation therapy, a radical neck dissection, and nerve damage so severe that I live in constant, intractable pain that the morphine I take can't snuff out. Many of the bones in my body are necrotic (dead or dying). So I've paid my dues, PPJ, and your blithe dismissal of my response to your apparent lack of morality simply inspires me to metaphorically pat you on your head and send you on your misguided way, just as one would do with a child not sophisticated or intelligent enough to join "grown-up conversations". I do, however, wish you a quick recovery from whatever malady you suffer that clearly clouds and/or corrupts your thinking processes.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 30, 2006 at 03:07:17 PM EST
    Bill Arnett writes:
    to dismiss that which you are not capable of understanding.
    Oh, I understand your point, it is just wrong, that's all. You write:
    No, my argument is that this is... a totally amoral war being...
    Okay, what argument did you present?
    directed by totally amoral dirt-bags like Bushco and his Republican Guards, who possess no humanistic traits at all.
    That, Bill, is a declaration, not an argument. You then write:
    I won't make any further effort to disabuse you
    So, after such a stirring non-argument you declare victory.... And no, I have never commented on my service, just mentioned it to defend myself against all those who won't serve and won't support who like to denigrate those who support with the claim that they are "chickenhawks," etc. I have been named everything from cook to telephone repair, I just smile and move forward. But I do honor yours, and give you my thanks, and I wish the country had given you their thanks rather than the back of their hand. Being called "baby killer," etc., especially with the wounds you suffered must have been brutal almost beyond belief. And given that, why do you now side with the group that hurt you??

    edger... Your entire post above is off topic. All I did was quote Bill Arnett.. Was he off topic too? I love how many on here just ignore stuff they don't like to hear.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#97)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 03:31:37 PM EST
    B.B - Maybe the group "that hurt him" was the one that took advantage of his loyalty and goodwill and sent him there. Naw, that couldnt possibly be.

    bb wants to have ppj's love child, imagine just like a rock start, ppj has his very own groupie

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#99)
    by Sailor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 04:19:21 PM EST
    Being called "baby killer," etc., especially with the wounds you suffered must have been brutal almost beyond belief.
    That is a completely disproven bit of propaganda the US put out. Next ppj will say he's sorry the fellow was spit on. Only a coward would lie like that.
    I love how many on here just ignore stuff they don't like to hear.
    Yeah, like the fact that the wrongwingers consistently change the subject when the post is about how marines murdered people in wheelchairs, women and children. That's not in doubt, neither is the fact that wrongwingers make excuses for every innocent death in iraq. ppj slipped and admitted he's a PNAC reactionary, and not a social liberal when he endorsed their plan for the US taking over the world. Social folks, and liberal folks, eschew conquest. So does 99% of every population. The main reason we have strife in the world is because 10% folks insist on subjugating other folks. Once you endorse murder for whatever reason, you are no better than the murders.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#100)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 04:41:30 PM EST
    Sailor - There I was trying not to feed the trolls for 5 minutes, hoping to extend it to 6..Alright, since you broached the subject, it became obvious a while back that social liberal is kinda like National Socialism minus the (overt) racism and with the innovation that the Log Cabin guys can marry each other as long as they keep their boots polished and vow obeisance to the (henceforth renamed) Thousand Year Reagan.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#101)
    by Edger on Tue May 30, 2006 at 05:56:03 PM EST
    Message from a Vet of My Lai Time: "Our Descent Into Hell Has Begun" --Tony Swindell
    In Iraq, our descent into hell, our "Apocalypse Now" moment, has begun. First there was Gitmo, then the global rendition program, then Abu Ghraib, then the pulverizing of Fallujah, and now trigger-happy raids that are filling multitudes of sandy graves with men, women and children. Has "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" become the mission in Babylon? Can't anyone remember Vietnam, where we left behind more than a million dead civilians? In Iraq, we've way past the half-million mark, probably the million mark, if you count the 1990s sanctions. Are the American people as blind and deaf as they seem? Don't we see ourselves walking through the gates of hell and can't we hear the doors clanging shut on our country? ... The narrowness of his vision is exactly how even the best and most humane soldier unwillingly becomes a monster, and the people who create war know this. Out of grief and rage, with the stench of his buddy's shredded flesh in his nostrils, the soldier stops asking questions and then begins making up his own rules with a rifle. He has touched the heart of darkness and there's no going back ever. Embracing the whore called war destroys morality, and doing all this in a dishonorable cause compounds the damage. ... That's why we who have been there must speak out forcefully. If it requires a stiff punch in the mouth to jump-start some addled neocon brains, so be it. And for anyone who gets their political truth from self-inflating whoopee cushions like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly, it will come none too soon. To remain silent this time risks the loss of everything that our country stands for.


    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 30, 2006 at 06:24:10 PM EST
    Jondee - I would say it was the group chanting "hell no, I won't go" all the time expecting the Bill Arnett's of the world to do their fighting. Well, they managed to hide from the draft in Canada, and they managed to stop the draft. Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. Gee sailor, is that claim like the one you made about some technical issues.. you know, like sailor is wrong.... again. BTW you wrote:
    The main reason we have strife in the world is because 10% folks insist on subjugating other folks.
    Could you please find OBL and tell him that?

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#103)
    by Sailor on Tue May 30, 2006 at 06:34:52 PM EST
    Jondee, you're right, I fell for (sh) it again. Back on topic: Jeebus, they killed her whole family in front of her! What the hell is the matter with us that we can get distracted from the fact that a 10 year old girl saw her family murdered in front of her by our soldiers!?

    the vietnam war ended, no more deaths. they never swam over here and attacked america, and we have our resident sociopath berating the brave heroes who tried to stop a ridiculous war.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#105)
    by Edger on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:16:17 PM EST
    They closed all the roads to the town hospital, the wounded were left unattended. They killed women and children without any reason; there were no fighters among them. --Imam Walid, 10 years old


    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#107)
    by Edger on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:29:06 PM EST
    "Begin paying attention," Swindell urged, "to stories from Iraq like the very recent one about U.S. Marines killing a group of civilians near Baghdad. This is the next step in the Iraq war as frustration among our soldiers grows -- especially with multiple tours."

    deleted, commenter warned that future insults to other commenters will result in banning.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#106)
    by Jo on Tue May 30, 2006 at 07:59:10 PM EST
    deleted, please address the topic of the post and lay off personal attacks on other commenters

    what does obl have to do with Iraq? and again what does what terrorist do, have to do with children murdered by marines?

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Tue May 30, 2006 at 08:05:44 PM EST
    He would've distorted and lied about that one too. Or, at the very least located pertinant passages in the Buddhist sutras that prove the *** dont value human life has highly as right wing republicans do.

    deleted

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 30, 2006 at 08:08:26 PM EST
    aw - My point was that the US is a predominantly Christian country, and that we do not have fatwas issued. I hope you will agree that the one I quoted/linked to is a bad document, seeing as it calls down death and destruction on the US. All in the name of God, of course. And I note you return to a rather standard claim, that anyone who is critical of certain aspects of the Moslem faith is "frightened." Frightened? No. But they do have my attention. And they should have yours. RePack - Indeed I did serve. Ten years in Naval Aviation. And, as aw notes I have never stated anything beyond that of a personal nature. But, since I have shown just a smidgen of mine, what branch and how long did you serve? aw - Did you serve? RePack - So I do think I have a good understanding of those who serve. In my ten years I found the vast majority to be good people trying to do good things and by and by, succeeding in doing so. They mostly never spoke of "heroism" or "gallantry" and would cast a suspicious eye on any who did. We did our job and expected others to do their jobs. If you didn't serve that was your business and no one cared unless you decided to make our service your business. Our humor was self effacing and internal. I wonder if new shipmates are still sent to find and polish the "golden spike?" Are they still not so gently whacked while bending over to get a look at the "sea bat" that has been captured and placed under a box? Crews were tight knit groups, and rightly so because everyone depended on the other to go their individual jobs. No big deal, but those who couldn't, or didn't, were simply removed from the crew and usually, something else was found for them. It was a big and busy Navy. I would think that combat squads are much the same in their inter-dependence and group reliance. Did some do wrong? Yes. But then, as I know it is true now, wrong doing was not acceptable. And in the end, the understanding and belief in that simple statement is the difference between us. You expect the worst.
    Every Iraqi or al Jazeera reporter killed by our military was a criminal or a terrorist.
    I have seen the best. I expect the best. And our military will give us the best. Count on it. Most of the world does.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#109)
    by aw on Tue May 30, 2006 at 08:46:01 PM EST
    Jondee - I would say it was the group chanting "hell no, I won't go" all the time expecting the Bill Arnett's of the world to do their fighting.
    Pure BS. Some of us were around at that time. You got it backward. You're describing today's chickenhawks.

    Re: Haditha Killings: Video and Survivor Intervie (none / 0) (#110)
    by aw on Tue May 30, 2006 at 08:54:24 PM EST
    To be clear: That was not directed at Jondee.