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Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Fri May 19, 2006 at 12:04:17 PM EST
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Our last Duke thread on this week's court hearing is full. Here's a new one for all topics related to the Duke lacrosse player's rape case.

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    Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread | 293 comments (293 topical)
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:12:03 PM EST
    You know, the AV is much more than just a "stripper/escort". She's an apparently diligent student and mother too, and has only been working as an escort for a couple of months,
    Aren't they all? I'm only half-kidding. The last strip club I was in, in Vegas last fall, that was almost word-for-word what most of the strippers told me and the dozen or so guys I was with. Interestingly enough, many of the Vegas strippers told us that they lived (and attended school, of course) in LA, SD, Salt Lake, etc., and would come to LV once or twice a month to work...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by chew2 on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:17:59 PM EST
    SUO, Kali, Hues Re: this whole stipper explosion among the young. This new story at todays Yahoo talks of strip clubs as one of the fastest growing venues for introducing new music. At strip clubs, hip-hop is big business My last posting on this. Otherwise TL will think we're getting too off topic.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:18:47 PM EST
    Posting rephrased from last thread. From: WRAL.com Attorney Requests Info From Cell Phone That Was Used Night Of Alleged Incident
    Nifong said prosecutors are not interested in the contents of the phone, such as the last 10 numbers called,
    "The state is not aware of any additional material or information which may be exculpatory in nature with respect to the defendant," Nifong wrote in a court filing.
    "The state is not aware of," or "The state is yet not aware of" or "The state does not want to commit itself to acknowledging that it is aware of"? Isn't that just another way of saying that if something exculpatory does come up, Nifong can always just claim that, well he just never thought to look into that matter?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Teresa on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:22:26 PM EST
    In my other life as a corporate accountant, I worked with a girl who went to school some nights and worked at a strip club the other nights. She made so much money stripping that she quit her office job. This is a large office and it was weird seeing guys I work with teasing her about how many tips she got from them the night before. That's my only contact with a stripper. She finished school but I don't know what she's doing now. I had to throw this out here since suo has obviously been to a lot of strip shows. :) This girl was actually very nice but I don't know how she came to work each day at an office with a big group of men who often visited her other place of employment.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:23:19 PM EST
    Regarding that the AV is much more than a stripper, that she's a diligent student, etc. That's a really stupid statement. She's not claiming she was raped in a library.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by chew2 on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:26:29 PM EST
    One additional possible reason a why the police and Nifong haven't yet looked at the AV's phone. Perhaps they didn't want to obtain any embarrassing info on Durham bigwigs called unless necessary, and all the rumors and innuendo that would generate.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:28:06 PM EST
    SUO
    Interestingly enough, many of the Vegas strippers told us that they lived (and attended school, of course) in LA, SD, Salt Lake, etc., and would come to LV once or twice a month to work...
    The most beautiful flights in America are the Southwest 2:35pm and 3:20pm Friday flights from San Diego to Las Vegas. All forms of the advance purchase tickets are sold out for at least a month prior.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Lora on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:31:12 PM EST
    SLO, The comment attributed to Nifong that prosecutors are not interested in the contents of the phone is not a direct quote and no other context is provided for it. I don't take it at face value, as his comments have been misrepresented before. The phone is being looked at. If there is anything there which gets any of the defendants off the hook, that will be wonderful. I'm not expecting it, are you?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:35:24 PM EST
    SLOphoto, mmyy asked this last night, and I've been asking it this morning, and none of the people who have been promoting the AV's version of events seems to have an explanation as to why Nifong is dragging his feet on this. Saying that "the state is not aware" when they haven't even (at least officially) examined the AV's phone is at the very least suspicious. Lora, IMHO, PB, etc.: Don't you want to know if the AV or anyone else made phone calls on that phone from 11:30 TO 12:40? How is knowing when she made phone calls "not necessarily anything that will seriously hurt [Nifong's] case, just injurious [to the AV]"? How does it injure her except to possibly place her making phone calls when she claims that she was being raped? Why, over two months after the alleged rape, has the DA's "expert" not even checked the phone for whether or not calls had been made on it during that period? How hard is it to ask the phone company to generate a list of phone calls from that night? Lora: How about a list of times and lengths of phone calls with the court identifying who was called but whose identities are not made public? For example, if a call was made to another lacrosse player it's pretty obvious that an attendee used the phone to call a buddy. But if there is a five-minute phone call to the AV's parents or her boyfriend, why shouldn't the defense know that? This is the point when defenders of the AV have to fish or cut bait. Are you here to defend your belief that a rape occurred or do you want to know what happened? SLO, it's Kafka with a drawl

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by chew2 on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:38:43 PM EST
    SUO The "I'm a student" is clearly just a pleasant cover story for many. But in the current case, the AV is pretty clearly a hard working full time student with many other responsibilities, besides her part time job as an escort.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:40:40 PM EST
    chew2, regarding why Nifong didn't examine the AV's phone for information for two months, It's more important for him to protect bigwigs from potentially being embarrassed in case their phone numbers turn up on the AV's cell phone rather than to actually pursue justice with due diligence and continue to indict people? Well, that's quite an excuse. Or maybe the NSA warned Nifong that there's a phone call from Osama bin Laden on her phone. If that's the best you can do, chew2, then I guess you're saying that Nifong's more interested in things other than justice in this case.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:43:32 PM EST
    Teresa: I know a girl who was a high-end call girl in NYC who put herself through Columbia law school. She had 4 clients a week, a wealthy friend being one, each client paid between $500-$1000 for each visit. She became friends with my friend (she cut him deals and gave him freebies). I had an extra ticket tot eh Rangers hockey game and my friend called her up to join us, she met us straight from the law library (I saw her Columbia Law School ID). She was from Florida, stunningly gorgeous and very smart. She even acknowledged that she would have to stop her "bridge financing job" before taking the bar. I was very impressed and say more power to her.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:44:09 PM EST
    Lora wrote: The phone is being looked at. But before the hearing yesterday it hadn't been examined. So it may be being looked at.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by chew2 on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:45:37 PM EST
    Bob,
    Well, that's quite an excuse.
    I didn't give it as an excuse. Just an additional reason, out of many proposed, why they have not yet looked at the phone records. You are so blinded by your support of the team. At least I don't pretend to be neutral like you do.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:47:33 PM EST
    chew2, I'm well aware of the veracity of her story, as you can see here.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:47:34 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    Smarty Pants.
    In fact, a former postal worker went postal there and killed four or five people, in the town of Goleta in the neighborhood known as Isla Vista, a few months ago.
    Bob, I meant "town" as in "college town." I was not referring to its postal designation. In fact, when I lived on Del Playa we used Isla Vista, CA as our address - though it must not have been official, we still got our mail. Back then, if you told someone you lived in Goleta, they'd say say, "Bummer Dude, why'd you move out of Isla Vista?"
    Welcome to Isla Vista History of Isla Vista, a college town adjacent to UCSB, where in 1969 peace marches led to free speech protests and anti-war activists burned the Bank of ... www.islavista.org/
    neener neener neener

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:50:27 PM EST
    Nancy Grace learned a new word yesterday--"alleged", as in "Duke University alleged multiple rape scandal". If she can turn, I guess the tide has completely turned.
    That will never happen. Nancy Grace has competition from Wendy Murphy, If Nancy Grace were to turn then Wendy Murphy would fill in and take over as the most vile Man Hater in America. Nancy Grace would be 2nd. That can't happen even Man Haters have ego's probably worse than the men they hate.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Lora on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:52:12 PM EST
    Bob, Of course I want to know, just as I want to know what all the partyers witnessed that night. Don't you?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:52:18 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica
    Regarding that the AV is much more than a stripper, that she's a diligent student, etc. That's a really stupid statement. She's not claiming she was raped in a library.
    Exactly, so we can to expect to hear nothing more of the lacrosse players' excellence on the field and in the classroom.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:53:10 PM EST
    she's a diligent student
    Lets not get carried away here. She has a B average at a school bringing up the rear in the North Carolina university system. That said, I don't think it would really matter if she were failing out of school completely. There's no shortage of diligent liars in this world, and honest people with less than stellar credentials aren't exactly anomalous.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:53:28 PM EST
    chew2 wrote: But in the current case, the AV is pretty clearly a hard working full time student with many other responsibilities, besides her part time job as an escort. But it's irrelevant. A lot of people who get good grades also lie about things. Or look at it this way: If you have an on-the-job injury and you're filling out forms about what happened and the extent of your injuries, does the Department of Labor want to know how often you attend church services or whether or not you walk your kids to the bus stop?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:55:16 PM EST
    Question: It is SOP here to jump to conclusions, and minds can change from day to day, or for some, little in the way of new evidence can change their minds. Do you think juries as a whole go through the same process during a trial?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Teresa on Fri May 19, 2006 at 01:58:26 PM EST
    Interesting Kali. I can't fault anyone for making that much money for a few hours a week. It leaves plenty of time for study. Orinoco, I heard that also. I wish he (Yale) had given us some details of any injuries.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:00:53 PM EST
    chew2, when all else fails, make a personal attack on another poster's integrity. You can ask Teresa. My position has been that I believed Nifong had proof of a rape which had not been released, but I found the AV an unreliable witness. That has always been my position. As the information has leaked out, the AV has appeared to me to be more dubious. There is a difference between my position a week or so back and my position now. Now I don't believe Nifong has anything. I'm willing to be corrected. My belief isn't going to stand in front of the evidence. My belief will change with the evidence. And thank you for at least admitting that your belief does come before evidence.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:03:41 PM EST
    IMHO, So when you were correcting me, you weren't correcting me about Goleta?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:06:36 PM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    I know a girl who was a high-end call girl in NYC who put herself through Columbia law school. She had 4 clients a week, a wealthy friend being one, each client paid between $500-$1000 for each visit.
    I was very impressed and say more power to her.
    Posted by Kalidoggie April 11, 2006 12:23 PM
    Because it is common knowledge that escorts are basically prostitutes. My point, her chosen occupation does not attract the most forthright, honest and sober people.
    So sad she would go from one profession of ill repute to another.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by chew2 on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:07:27 PM EST
    Hues,
    Lets not get carried away here. She has a B average at a school bringing up the rear in the North Carolina university system.
    Well true, if you similarly discount the privileged upbringing of the team members, their B average at an elite school, their hard work as students and athletes, and even their hard partying as not being a credit to them. Otherwise her achievement is quite comparable to the Dukies. Given her class background, what she has had to overcome, her responsibilities as a mother, and her need to support herself and go to school full time, that B average looks pretty damn good in my book. If what you're saying is that none of that is relevant to whether any of them are telling the truth, then point taken. But then I don't hear that as a reason for why the team members are lieing to protect their brothers.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:07:56 PM EST
    With regard to the cell phone and make-up bag, it appears that the AV dropped these items as she was trying to leave - I believe there are some defense photos which show her with the make-up bag and purses (and presumably the phone) walkin down the back stairs. Per the defense (yesterday) these items were then retrieved by someone at the party (presumably one of the captains) and brought inside. My point to this is three-fold. First, the original notion was that the AV left these items in a panic because she was being assaulted. Thus, it would now appear that such a notion is incorrect (doesn't mean she wasn't assaulted - but it does mean she wasn't running out of the house to escape) 2. Since these items were evidently brought back into the house by (I assume) the captains, doesn't this suggest that they are either (1) very stupid criminals - raping someone in their home and then stealing property and leaving it in the home, or (2) just trying to do the right thing by returning the property to the owners when she returned. I'm sure there are alternative hypotheses, but I am very uncomfortable with the indictment of Evans. If you assume he is innocent, what more can he do to demonstrate this...volunteers to speak to the police without counsel, offers to take a polygraph (and inexplicably the police say NO - maybe they watched "A Few Good Men" and couldn't handle the truth. He returns the AVs property to his house (I assume this) and he helps the police find evidence in his house. I mean, how hard would it have been to simply throw the nails down the toilet? Third, if there aren't any phone calls on the cell phone - why weren't such calls placed. For example, if I were being attacked, wouldn't I call 911 - The AV obviously had the phone and claims she used it to call her father. I hate to sound pro-defense, but there are some things about this case that really require one to make some huge leaps of logic to explain.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:08:11 PM EST
    Regarding grades, If the three accused pulled better than a 3.0, should the charges be dropped? Should we use grades over an entire college career, or just this semester prior to the alleged rape in order to determine who's telling the truth? Do those of you who keep talking about how the AV is such a hard-working student realize how stupid you sound?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:16:17 PM EST
    By the way, chew2, there aren't many other reasons why the DA's office hasn't even examined the phone two months after it seized it. The only other plausible reasons why Nifong didn't look at the AV's phone were that he was too busy (which is irrelevant, since his lead investigator is supposed to do the examination, but maybe he's too busy, too) and he doesn't want to know. So we have the DA's office being too busy to even find out if the AV or anyone had used the phone, which was seized by police a couple of days after the alleged rape. Or we have Nifong not wanting to know the evidence to be derived from the phone. Or we have him covering up for potential bigwigs who may have had their numbers on the phone. I notice that none of those reasons has anything to do with justice, and only the first one even remotely not a violation of Nifong's oath of office. So you are coming around to agreeing that Nifong is a bad actor here?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:19:10 PM EST
    By the way, chew2, I defy you to find anything I wrote supporting the lacrosse team, so you can tamp that line of insult back down your piehole.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:20:52 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    IMHO, So when you were correcting me, you weren't correcting me about Goleta?
    I wasn't correcting you. I acknowledged that is the postal designation. I told you I was using the term "town" the same way the web site about Isla Vista uses the term. I defer to your expertise in these matters, I, alas, am not a "Man of Letters."

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Teresa on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:21:07 PM EST
    Do you think juries as a whole go through the same process during a trial?
    Great question Prozac. That's what I find myself doing as we get each new piece of information.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:29:04 PM EST
    Lora wrote: Of course I want to know, just as I want to know what all the partyers witnessed that night. Don't you? I want everyone to tell what they know as an observer. I also wouldn't mind the AV giving the public her timeline and version of events, right now. For all your fixation on the students at the party, I note little concern about the lack of timeline, lack of the AV's version of events, etc. My guess is that with Evans volunteering to give a lie detector test, with other defendants trying to present evidence to the DA, that we won't hear Nifong say much more about the blue wall of silence. And I imagine that if this case ever comes to trial that we will hear plenty of those students giving their version of events. Cheshire has promised witnesses to verify Evans' whereabouts for every minute of that night. I imagine Nifong could have heard from them already, but didn't. Of course I want to know, just as you want to know what all the partyers witnessed that night. Don't you? The DA can compel every one of those students to testify in front of a grand jury. But he hasn't. Why not? As far as I know, telephone records haven't been granted the right to remain silent.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Teresa on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:48:42 PM EST
    Orinoco, I was just surprised that the attorneys have told him (Yale) that she told the nurse they didn't use condoms but he had no more information about any injuries or a tox report. I know they had to have told him that much but he didn't mention it. About the phone...the only honest reason I can think of for it not being examined yet is that the police have the records and she made no calls after the one she supposedly made to her father upon arrival. If that's true, I can see why it isn't important for the defense to see anything other than records. But, I think the defense has the right to determine that on their own. I can believe the theory that there may be some embarrassing calls on that phone because that would explain why the judge was already aware of an issue with the phone. If the investigators haven't even checked the phone records, I can't think of any good reason for that. Pat, it seems the accuser left the house in such a state of intoxication from however means that she wouldn't know where she left her phone. Bob, like you, I just want to know the truth. All of it if possible.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 02:53:30 PM EST
    Orinoco, Very interesting point. Nifong based his indictments in large part on the rape examination. What did he have other than her story and the examination? If the AV said that the alleged rapists didn't use condoms, then Nifong's excuse about lack of DNA evidence is problematic for his own honesty and believability. I'm trying not to be indelicate here, but she should have been able to at least taste if Seligmann had been wearing a condom. If I'm not mistaken, his comment about the the possibility of the alleged rapists wearing condoms came with the first round of DNA results, prior to the indictments. That means that Nifong was making public excuses in contradiction to an important part of the AV's story before he went on to indict three men. We heard a defense attorney ask about the AV's phone information yesterday, but we don't know when the first defense request or inquiry regarding the AV's phone and records was made. It would be interesting if this has been an ongoing problem. I know that discovery is just starting, but I could imagine the defense giving a head's up to Nifong.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:00:07 PM EST
    Lora posted:
    Orinoco, I was just surprised that the attorneys have told him (Yale) that she told the nurse they didn't use condoms but he had no more information about any injuries or a tox report. I know they had to have told him that much but he didn't mention it.
    Hmmm? Go figure?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:04:56 PM EST
    Teresa, regarding phone calls by the AV, I have seen posts that someone at the party took a picture of the AV making a phone call on her cell phone. I don't know if such a picture exists. But if it does, that seems to be evidence that she made a phone call. Was it the one she made to her father? Possibly. Evidence seems to be more important if it appears to be witheld. If there aren't any calls on that phone after she called her father, then it's of very little value for evidence other than she went to the party and left the phone there. If it's got fingerprints of the three rapists, or blood from the AV, well, then I don't think that Nifong would be so blase about it.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:07:41 PM EST
    Orinoco, Agreed about the phone records. I'm sure that they know her phone calls that night. And I bet that Nifong knows too.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Teresa on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:20:42 PM EST
    think the reason is first that there is nothing remarkable about the other reports, eg. she didn't have a 3" gash pouring out blood, she didn't have drugs in her system. ie. No News
    Orinoco, that's what I expected him to say but he didn't. That was the first leak I expected to hear. Nothing remarkable about the exam is at least as significant to me as the condom issue because I think that report is all Nifong has.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Teresa on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:24:30 PM EST
    Posted by inmyhumbleopinion May 19, 2006 04:00 PM Lora posted:
    How soon you forgot me imho. ;)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Teresa on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:31:15 PM EST
    Bob, I've also heard that a picture was taken of her while she was on the phone but I don't know if it is true or not. I've read so much that I have to check myself about what is fact and what is theory. I agree with you and Orinoco that the defense already has at least some phone records. Prior to yesterday the defense had already filed a motion that included the phone records and or the phone. Orinoco - I don't want to see the pictures but I do hope we hear what is really in that report. Abrams didn't even ask him for any details.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by weezie on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:34:01 PM EST
    Now there's an idea..instead of working my tail off to help send my daughter to Duke, I'll just encourage her to become a stripper and a call girl, i.e., since some of you apparently think it's character building. I wonder if that would get her extra points on her app to Columbia Law? Why didn't I think of this before now! Kali, could your lovely friend maybe write my baby a recommendation to the call girl service?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:36:40 PM EST
    Where is the damn tox report? It looks like to me that its the only thing holding up the shaky foundation of belief in the accuser ( I ma never using the word victim again ). that is of course except for the several trolls who dont really care what is right or not.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:37:28 PM EST
    ma = may (typing challenged)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Teresa on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:48:41 PM EST
    That's true Orinoco, but that report is the only basis Nifong and initially the police had to start this investigation. I think they need to let us know how serious any injuries were to justify this whole mess. I guess I just feel the public deserves some explanation for this and the really hard core believers will never accept that the guys are innocent without some proof. Some won't except any explanation but I think most will.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by weezie on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:52:40 PM EST
    Orinoco, you are so right! Thank goodness I made her take ballet and tap, at least she has a gimmick. As to the genes, well, maybe someday we'll all get together in Vegas and you can judge for yourself.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:53:33 PM EST
    Teresa posted:
    How soon you forgot me imho. ;)
    Sorry, Teresa. I get about four posts going at once and lose track of who said what.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 03:54:03 PM EST
    Orinoco posted:
    Go figure WHAT? You want them to release the picture of her vagina and have it plastered on the front page of every Scripps-Howard newspaper?
    hahahahaah Orinoco, You made me laugh so hard I'm going to stop using asteriks in your name (it's a pain in the ass to type that way anyway). I was thinking of the tox report. What no freakin" tox report? If they have it and don't leak it, it's not good news for them.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:21:47 PM EST
    Silver-tongued Yale Galanter stumbles: Galanter: There is no smoking gun.... Abrams: What about the medical report? Galanter: (he paused - eyes bugged out a bit - stammering ) No.... no.... the med.. well....the medical... the medical information contained in the packet seems to consistent with what the defense has been saying all along, Dan. ************************** Hmmmm? I smell smoke..... Here's what we can expect to be in the medical report: From the search warrant:
    Medical records and interviews that were obtained by a subpoena revealed the victim had signs, symptoms and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally. Furthermore, the SANE nurse stated the injuries and her behavior were consistent with a traumatic experience.
    Dan forgot to ask about the tox report. *Drat!*

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:24:15 PM EST
    "Duke lacrosse player's rape case" I thought this was the "Durham Stripper Allegedly Raped Case".

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:29:27 PM EST
    Duke lacrosse players indicted for rape, kidnapping and sexual assault case

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Teresa on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:44:46 PM EST
    Pat, TalkLeft said no names!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:51:19 PM EST
    Well, the time of the AV's phone call to her dad should be interesting. Although I imagine it'll depend on the AV to convince a jury as to her actual whereabouts when she made the call...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:54:34 PM EST
    Pat, she also doesn't normally want anyone to cut and paste such big chunks and/or entire articles either. I think something about copyrights or something.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:57:17 PM EST
    Pat, Good summary. Just remember the rules by the host here are for us not to use the AV's name, so I hate to see all your wrote wiped out.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:59:04 PM EST
    To all: I apologize for not deleting the names. My mistake.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:08:28 PM EST
    IMHO's fallback is that there must be something regarding the rape report because the guy who reported that the AV said her attackers did not use condoms stammered and his eyes bugged out? Is there anything to draw from Nifong's suggestion that the attackers may have used condoms when he knew the AV said otherwise? From the search warrant: Medical records and interviews that were obtained by a subpoena revealed the victim had signs, symptoms and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally. Furthermore, the SANE nurse stated the injuries and her behavior were consistent with a traumatic experience. Except that it was her boyfriend's sperm.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:21:34 PM EST
    gmax, The tox report is pretty much the last thing out there. It's possible that there may be something there, like a date rape drug, but there aren't any charges about drugging her, and for good reason. Who did it? A few weeks ago we had a discussion about how some date rape drugs are taken recreationally, so it's not impossible (but admittedly unlikely) that she may have taken it herself. That Nifong hasn't charged anyone is suggestive that a date rape drug is not in his scenario. The tox show may show nothing more than alcohol, so the question is if she had drunk some before she got there. Or did she take an opiate? The AV was reported to be out of it by Roberts, the security guard at Kroger's and the cop, so there may be something there. Or maybe a little of whatever substance there may have been in her system was interacting with a preexisting mental condition. Can't forget that.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:27:36 PM EST
    The following is from the johnsvillenews.com website. Thus, take it for what it's worth. The interesting parts (to me) are the statements accorded to Mr. Bissey (the neighbor) regarding the timeline, and the date (and thus, time) of the alleged attack, per Nifong. [remainder deleted, please follow link for details --use this space for comments rather than reprinting long works elsewhere. And please don't use the name of the accuser.]

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 05:54:22 PM EST
    Although I imagine it'll depend on the AV to convince a jury as to her actual whereabouts when she made the call...
    I read about a case where they could determine the general location of the call's origination by what cellular tower was used.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:06:01 PM EST
    That Nifong hasn't charged anyone is suggestive that a date rape drug is not in his scenario.
    The discovery turned over should be everything Nifong has unless he was able to get a judge to seal witness statements for the protection of the witnesses. Didn't the accuser identify #20 as the guy in the kitchen that was making a drink?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by Lora on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:12:59 PM EST
    I'm assuming we don't have a direct quote from the report about exactly what the AV said about condoms. Forgive me if I don't get too excited about it before we learn the actual wording. The defense has been known to spin. It's a fair assumption that the defense won't leak anything that isn't to their advantage. So far, it doesn't seem to be much. If they had more, I doubt they'd hesitate to use it. I don't think appearing indelicate would stop them, if their charming "swab" speech was any indication.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:23:44 PM EST
    It's a fair assumption that the defense won't leak anything that isn't to their advantage. So far, it doesn't seem to be much. If they had more, I doubt they'd hesitate to use it. I don't think appearing indelicate would stop them, if their charming "swab" speech was any indication.
    Yes, Orinoco's "front page news vagina photo," was hilarious, but disingenuous. They, of course, don't have to release any photos. And the idea that any subject is too indelicate for Yale Galanter to discuss is laughable. He was talking about ejaculation today. I don't think many of us would need to be revived with smelling salts if the S.A.N.E. report results or tox report results were released.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 06:44:40 PM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    The Judge has "heard" that there may be "some privacy issue" with regard to the phone. I think by definition any number on an escort's phone is a "privacy issue." It is not the owner of the phone's privacy the judge is concerned about, it is the privacy of the person on the other end of the calls made/received witht he phone. Durham is a small town.
    It is entirely possible and likely that there are some "known" Durham residents on the phone. I would not be surprised if a few showed up in city hall or the court system or the police department.
    Lacrosse case goes to court
    Superior Court Judge Ronald Stephens said the phone, which was seized by police investigators, might not have belonged to the woman, and he was concerned that revealing the information it contained could violate the owner's privacy rights. He ordered Nifong and Osborn to work out a solution where they would download the material and give it to the judge to review in private.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:05:50 PM EST
    "Superior Court Judge Ronald Stephens said the phone, which was seized by police investigators, might not have belonged to the woman..." Might not belong? How about asking her if it belongs to her? Two months on don't you think the ownership of a piece of evidence seized a couple days after the alleged rape that the ownership of the phone might have been determined? No way to figure out who owns the phone? Does anyone else find this peculiar? Who told the judge it might not belong to the AV? Nifong? Is this just another delaying tactic or has he just not gotten around to asking her if her phone is her phone? Is the AV talking to the DA? Should be really easy to determine if it might or might not belong to her. Did the AV steal it? If not she has to know whose phone it is. She has to know where it came from. Did the boyfriend loan it to her. Did he steal it? Did she buy a stolen phone? Does anyone else notice a peculiar stench from the fact that the court has not determined the ownership of the phone at this late date? Somebody help me here. Maybe that's why the AV got off so lightly when she stole the taxicab. It didn't belong to her so they didn't use it as evidence. This is beginning to sound very phony.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:08:29 PM EST
    IMHO wrote: Didn't the accuser identify #20 as the guy in the kitchen that was making a drink? Was #20 charged with anything? No.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:20:53 PM EST
    Was #20 charged with anything?
    No
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 08:36:18 PM EST
    Maybe he owns the phone the AV had too.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:06:01 PM EST
    Interesting reply ( but Cheshire doesn't have a spell-checker?). The comments show a lot of the same divisiveness we see here. Ori, who is H*W*H*A*N*C? Also, don't you find it peculiar that after two months they don't know who owns the AV's phone? I'm feeling sleepy out here on the coast. A little rainstorm drifted in, little raindrops tapping on the window.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:14:10 PM EST
    WOW! And I thought Nifong's tirade was something. "The Cheshire Cat" really went off. I hope he can keep it together for his client's sake.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:31:02 PM EST
    The Moonlanding Investigators (good one, Kali!) are the HWHANC's: the guy who said the players should visit the anti-semitic group; and the guy who uses "uh" and "ah" in transcriptions, for two.
    Maybe you should look up the word "ignore." Giving someone special names and posting about them all the time isn't ignoring them. I agree, Cheshire must not have thought it would be published. He wouldn't have jeopardized his client's chance at a fair trial by calling a well-known community activist a racist. If I was Evans I'd be looking for a new attorney.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 09:43:55 PM EST
    Look up [ignore], Orinoco.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 10:02:16 PM EST
    From another blog:
    I did find in the linked story that there is "an emergency-room nurse's findings that the woman had injuries, signs and symptoms consistent with rape." Part of what Kevin quoted says "the defense say they have photos showing she had injuries when she arrived." Now what was the purpose of taking photos of that part of a woman's anatomy and how do you prove they were taken before the alleged rape and not after?
    Are these the photos Orinoco didn't want "plastered on the front page of every Scripps-Howard newspaper?"

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 19, 2006 at 10:07:15 PM EST
    Orinoco posted:
    Yale Galanter just said on Abrams she told the Sane nurse they didn't use condoms.
    Is this what Yale Galanter was referring to when he said:
    No.... no.... the med.. well....the medical... the medical information contained in the packet seems to consistent with what the defense has been saying all along, Dan.
    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 19, 2006 at 11:11:33 PM EST
    Re: Joe Cheshire's e-mail published in the News Observer: He knows what he's talking about when it comes to race and the criminal justice system. He is a very accomplished and dedicated death penalty lawyer. He takes his cases to trial. He often represents the indigent. He practices in the South. Do I need to say more?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 12:17:09 AM EST
    TalkLeft: Thank you for expressing some sanity in this aspect of the case. I thought Joe Cheshire's e-mail pretty astute. Please do say more, and say it more often.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by azbballfan on Sat May 20, 2006 at 01:16:29 AM EST
    Imho
    If I was Evans
    Orinoco:
    If I were
    Falling behind the times? Want to impress with knowledge of subjunctive moods which have disappeared long ago? Then again, maybe IMHO really has the ability to assume the persona of whomever they wish? Thus making the outdated grammitcal subjunctive rule inappropriate. ... all day long I'd biddy biddy bum.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 02:50:35 AM EST
    Posted by IMHO: If I was Evans
    Posted by Orinoco: If I were
    Posted by IMHO: Look up [ignore], Orinoco.
    Posted by azbballfan: Falling behind the times? ... Want to impress with knowledge of subjunctive moods which have disappeared long ago? ... Thus making the outdated grammatical subjunctive rule inappropriate.
    The colloquial licentiousness you are proffering -- in your disdain for employing the imperfect subjunctive tense, implying a conditions which is contrary to fact -- speaks more to your own personal disdain for those who do not share your high regard for an undifferentiated use of the current patois, and not in the least to any alleged "outdated appropriateness" of being able to distinguish articulate speech from the patois and choose to employ it at will -- or not -- as the individual social situation may require.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 05:27:12 AM EST
    Bunny Hole Entertainment the agency of the AV is nationwide.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by roger on Sat May 20, 2006 at 05:51:58 AM EST
    Sad that the Duke case gets more comments, on more threads, than torture, or the loss of civil liberties. Any blonds go missing?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:26:31 AM EST
    Roger - Indeed. But, having thought about it, I have decided that it must be a factor of age. You and I are obviously too old to be fascinated by strippers, strip clubs, etc..... Ah, yes, tis true what was said. Youth is wasted on the young. But let them enjoy. Spring will turn into autum much to fast.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:38:02 AM EST
    Cheshire wrote:
    We saw in OJ an acquittal on race/political grounds by a largely African American jury paying the man back for years of injustice.
    TL writes:
    [Joe Cheshire] knows what he's talking about when it comes to race and the criminal justice system.
    Blaming the OJ verdict on a black jury out to pay back "The Man" doesn't strike me as the statement of a person who has any particular insight into race issues. It's perhaps the most typical response found in the white community. It's almost a "unique identifier" of a white person. The abstract of Cheshire's letter goes something like this: Listen, black people, you've already let a black murderer go free on racial grounds. Please don't convict make it worse by convicting my innocent white boy client on similar grounds. If there is apparent symmetry to the fellow in court calling Seligman a racist and Cheshire calling the accuser a "False Accuser," it is that both these statements are examples of prejudgments. Both statements are designed to construct a Bayesian in people's minds that will influence how they think about the case. Hoodwinking makes for great entertainment, but nobody should confuse it with truth. It's not always a bad thing, by the way, to be "The Man." The reason blacks AND whites voted Nifong into office is largely that, no matter how this thing comes out, he'll always be "The Man." Cheshire wrote:
    When articles like you wrote today insinuate that this case is about race because one or two boys may have spouted racial epitahs in response to same being hurled at them ...
    I'm not sure Cheshire will win over many people with his argument that the cotton shirt statement can be mitigated by portraying it as a tit for tat exchange. That's because most people don't have that grandfather statement in them, no matter how drunk they are. It's rare breed of meme from the very bottom of the gutter. Anyway, I hereby designate Cheshire the "Rodney Dangerfield" of race relations. And David, if you're listening, go give Oprah a call. Go public. It's the only way to thoroughly redeem yourself. Even the black public will support you en masse if you don't hide behind your lawyers coat-tails. The one thing all cultures universally respect is a stand-up guy.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:39:58 AM EST
    Bean, would you please TRY and stay on topic.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 06:56:54 AM EST
    Sorry... Above, among other typos and word gaffs, it should have read "If there is apparent symmetry to the fellow in court calling Seligman a rapist and Cheshire calling the accuser a "False Accuser," blah blah blah...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:17:00 AM EST
    Hi Bean,
    Roger brought it up-just responding. Truth hurt?
    No, no. I'm just being churlish because TL deleted a thread of mine, one about as short as yours, which I made "in response" to an earlier thread commenting on race. I wasn't making any comment on the "truth" of what your saying. Just because I disagree with you on the appropriateness of having a trial in Durham doesn't mean I disagree you on, say, Iraq.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#89)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:46:08 AM EST
    The colloquial licentiousness you are proffering -- blah...blah... blah... blah... blah... blah... blah... blah...blah...blah... blah...blah...blah...blah...blah... blah... blah... blah... blah... blah... blah... blah...blah ...blah...blah... blah... blah...
    Colloquial licentiousness? Is that how educated people say "phone sex?" It's obvious Orinoco fears the idea that Cheshire may have harmed his client with that e-mail. Orinoco countered my post by correcting my grammar. What does that tell us about his ability to attack my ideas? Cheshire's e-mail:
    That said, however, there is absolutely no question that there are people pandering to the race issue in this case for their own agendas.
    Isn't that what he is doing by calling Victoria Peterson a racist?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 07:58:25 AM EST
    As I see it, we are all trying to fill in the blanks of this case - as the human brain is wont to do. If there is a tapestry with holes we attempt to make it whole - each in his own way, more or less objectively. In attempting to fill in the blanks, I've hypothesized that the DA boxed himself in - the genesis of which was his initial belief of the AV's story or his ambition, or both; is now aware that he screwed up and is boxed-in; and is hoping for the case to be resolved without trial. This hypothesis is shared by more than a few observers, I suppose. But, when I watched Thursday's administrative hearing, when RS's lawyer claimed an "airtight alibi," the DA smirked, smiled, and shook his head, all actions serving to refute the staement. So, if my hypothesis is correct - that the DA knows he's brought charges when perhaps he shouldn't - why would he smirk, smile, and shake his head? Is it that he has to stay "in character?" I would think that he'd sit there impassively. His body language has me puzzled and questioning my hypothesis.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#91)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sat May 20, 2006 at 08:38:05 AM EST
    I thought that Cheshire's comments about the racial divide were right on point. I don't think he should have used the OJ case, because first it wasn't an all-black jury, secondly, if you watched the case you should have found a lot of reasonable doubt in the prosecution's presentation. But I think his point about this case is correct. What happens if the three men are convicted by a black jury and it's clear that they didn't do it? Does the cause of civil rights get advanced? Are rape shield laws further enhanced and protected? Quite the opposite. This case will be an excuse to start dismantling those things. People outside the courthouse should be cheering for justice, but I'm afraid they're cheering for a conviction.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#92)
    by roger on Sat May 20, 2006 at 08:38:58 AM EST
    Jim, I thought that it was my years of experience with "professional victim" strippers that made me lose interest. When I think about it though, I fear that you are correct. The only thing that I find more boring than strip clubs is gambling, but to each his own. Bean- My "illegal activities"??? I am much more boring than you think. I just believe in old fashioned morality, like the Constitution.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 08:46:50 AM EST
    Bob in Pac wrote: Why, over two months after the alleged rape, has the DA's "expert" not even checked the phone for whether or not calls had been made on it during that period? How hard is it to ask the phone company to generate a list of phone calls from that night? >> I'd even like for the Defense to turn over all cell phone records of all the attendees to the party... I think that's one way of presenting clear evidence. The defense attorneys should have thought of that, turn over all cell phone records to the prosecution. Any photos on the cell photos, would have better credibility than those photoshoppe pics. But there's one problem..there were more than just the lacrosse players in attendance...hmmn... I guess the ones that are known is all they can work with... The burning question that we all have is: "what are in those 1200 pages of discovery along with the video tapes and computer disk?? Where are the articles? Are the results of the AV blood tests in there? But then if the defense leaked what was in discovery, then the circus would only continue..

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#94)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat May 20, 2006 at 08:49:01 AM EST
    fillintheblanks posted:
    His body language has me puzzled and questioning my hypothesis.
    Nifong did appear to be saying, "Bring it on!" He's either got something he hasn't had to turn over yet, or "trusted attorney" Yale Galanter isn't telling us everything that is in "the med.. well....the medical... the medical" report. Or Nifong is stark raving mad.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#95)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sat May 20, 2006 at 08:50:29 AM EST
    I asked about this last night, and no one seemed to find it peculiar: "Superior Court Judge Ronald Stephens said the phone, which was seized by police investigators, might not have belonged to the woman..." Two months after it was seized the ownership of a key piece of evidence hasn't been determined? How do you find out about the ownership of the phone? The DA asks the AV, "Is this your phone?" If she says no, you ask whose phone it is. If she says she doesn't know you ask her how she came about getting it. Did she steal it? Did she buy a stolen phone? Did her boyfriend lend her his phone? How hard is it for law enforcement to find out by the telephone number who owns the phone? Someone is getting the bill. It sounds to me like a delaying tactic, and if I were the judge I'd be a tad suspicious about the DA coming up with this excuse at this late date. Does anyone else find this suspicious? Will phone theft be a charge that Nifong overlooks in his pursuit of these convictions?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#96)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sat May 20, 2006 at 08:56:42 AM EST
    SuddenImpact, The search warrant listed cell phones, computers, etc., so there is a presumption that those things that Nifong wanted were seized. All cell phone records of the attendees would be interesting. Apparently, Seligmann is more than willing to turn over his records. But since you are the only one who touched on my question, why do you think it's so hard to figure out who owns the cell phone that the AV had? Why doesn't the AV know who it belongs to? Why wouldn't the DA ask her whose phone it is?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#97)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:02:11 AM EST
    fillin, To be a good public speaker who've got to have a bit of the actor in you. For the most part I'm a terrible public speaker. Does it mean I'm less likely to tell the truth in front of a crowd or a camera than to a couple of people? No. All trials are performances to a certain extent.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#98)
    by azbballfan on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:06:31 AM EST
    SLOphoto, Through your editing of my post, you missed the point. I pointed out how in this case, imho could have been appropriate since the subjunctive might not have applied. Recheck the grammar rules. And your own disdain for those who carefully follow them. Then feel free to post again something that 80% of the readers have difficulty understanding. (know your audience)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#99)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:08:47 AM EST
    IMHO, Regarding medical evidence, so far: The AV told the nurse her attackers used no condoms. The DNA test found only the boyfriend's sperm.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:18:16 AM EST
    Roger - Gambling? Boring? Now you're getting personal. ;-)

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#101)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:25:52 AM EST
    MEDIA...REALITY CHECK... Someone in an earlier post said the AV told the nurse the rapists did not use condoms. I know I saw an article that the AV's father told the media that they DID WEAR CONDOMS. I read earlier that someone thought the AVs purse was dropped outside, so an unknown person brought it back INTO THE HOUSE AND ALL THE WAY IN THE BATHROOM?? WHY NOT just inside the door, anticipating she would RETURN FOR IT?? AND THE other funny media report is one of the captains handed the nails to the police. C'mon..people..do you really believe the police collected evidence in that manner with no gloves and a lacrosse captain physcially handing over false nails???? IF THIS is the case then the police deliberately mishandled evidence. I hope everyone on this thread realizes we are doing nothing more than speculating on a "talk show forum". I entirely believe the media has added drama to their articles purposely for ratings. That means they have fabricated their own stories for entertainment. I don't think there is anything entertaining about rape. Until the facts are released officially in this case noone really knows...

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#102)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:31:07 AM EST
    Rogerp posted:
    Sad that the Duke case gets more comments, on more threads, than torture, or the loss of civil liberties.
    Any blonds go missing?
    JimakaPPJ posted:
    You and I are obviously too old to be fascinated by strippers, strip clubs, etc....
    The indicted players are not charged with hiring strippers, they are charged with first-degree forcible rape, first-degree sexual offense and first degree kidnapping. These are crimes even when committed against Americans.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#103)
    by Lora on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:33:36 AM EST
    Happy Saturday! It's nice to see that at least some regulars here have lives ;-) Let's have an actual quote and context for the condom comment. Defense regularly spins. I'm waiting on that one. The famous phone that is now also being continually beaten: Here's a possibility: DA has so much evidence he didn't need the phone. He didn't see the need to hurry on it. And...that's why he smirked or whatever he did at the mention of the exculpatory timeline. He knows it's BS. (Unless, as imho said, he's stark, raving mad.) Cheshire's badly misspelled email:
    ...insinuate that this case is about race because one or two boys may have spouted racial epitahs in response to same being hurled at them (and by the way it is not alledged that those very few statements came from any of these indicted young men)...
    Geez that's not how I heard it! THEY made "offensive remarks", that's why the dancing was stopped, way back before the lawyers were having to come up with the "she was impaired and injured when she got there" theory. And, Cheshire, who DID shout those remarks? Inquiring minds want to know.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Weekend Open Thread (none / 0) (#104)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat May 20, 2006 at 09:39:28 AM EST
    IMHO, Regarding medical evidence, so far:
    The AV told the nurse her attackers used no condoms.
    The DNA test found only the boyfriend's sperm.
    So, un