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FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques

By TChris, Section War on Terror
Posted on Tue May 16, 2006 at 02:27:46 PM EST
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by TChris

In response to reports that FBI agents have questioned American Muslims about their religious practices and the sermons they hear during prayer services, the ACLU made a Freedom on Information Act request for information about the FBI's surveillance of Southern California mosques and Muslims.

Local Islamic leaders said they enlisted the ACLU's help after the FBI provided little information in response to their allegations that the agency was monitoring them and their places of worship.

Islamic leaders are worried that the FBI's intrusion into religious activities might have a chilling effect upon Muslims who fear going to mosques.

In an e-mail, FBI officials said they would "address" the ACLU's request but did not say whether records would be turned over.

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    FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques | 20 comments (20 topical)
    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#1)
    by swingvote on Tue May 16, 2006 at 05:59:35 PM EST
    This is a tough one. On the face of it, I don't like the idea of the FBI worrying about what is being said in any religion's worship. On the other hand, we have many instances reported of Imam's spewing hatred left and right, and of mosque's being used as training grounds for would-be "terrorist/freedom fighters/jihadis" (you choose the term you want to use) and stockpiling automatic weapons. I would say that when your religion has a habit of producing murderers, and when your houses of worship have a habit of becoming arsenals, it might not be going to far for the government to pay attention to what is going on behind those closed doors. I may not like it, but there are limits to any freedom, and preaching hatred and murder is certainly crossing the line.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Tue May 16, 2006 at 06:10:21 PM EST
    I would say that when your religion has a habit of producing murderers.....
    I wonder if there are any stats out there as to which religion has produced the most who murder in their name? My guess is that Muslims would not even be in the running.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimcee on Tue May 16, 2006 at 07:40:10 PM EST
    Simply put, If the last fellows that killed a bunch of people were Methodists, or Lutherans, maybe Unitarians I honestly wouldn't have a problem with the Feds monitoring them. It seems to me that some Mosques do impart a rather radical sermon to thier parishioners. Therefore if most of the terrorists were Muslim then it makes perfect sense to monitor Mosques. The Death to Amerika crowd seems to be predominantly Muslim so any G-man worth his salt knows where to start and it ain't the full gospel, church-lady in hats parish. Many folks have lost all perspective in the present because they believe everything negative goes back to Bush. Compulsion as such is a funny thing.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Tue May 16, 2006 at 08:14:34 PM EST
    Squeaky: I wonder if there are any stats out there as to which religion has produced the most who murder in their name? ... My guess is that Muslims would not even be in the running. Your guess is right: History shows Jews and Christians killed more Muslims than Muslims killed Jews and Christians - April 19 2006:
    historical facts tell us that Jews and Christians have, tragically, killed many more Muslims than the other way around. Now this assertion may seem to go against the current tide of public opinion, but a little basic research will prove the point.
    ...
    As for Christians killing Muslims, that started back in the Middle Ages with the Crusades, followed by the Spanish Inquisition, and the colonial era in which European imperial powers occupied Muslim lands from Indonesia to Morocco, including India and the Middle East. More recently, Iraq and Afghanistan have been occupied by American-led coalitions that still promote so-called Christian values. Millions more Arabs and Muslims have been killed.
    I hope no one needs more links on this. if so, someone else can do the googling. I've seen enough of it. It's a topic on which the statistics are mindblowing... e.g.: Victims of the Christian Faith

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Tue May 16, 2006 at 08:16:09 PM EST
    Many folks have lost all perspective in the present because they believe everything negative goes back to Islam.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 12:00:57 AM EST
    Friday prayers in many countries, publicised by the mosques themselves, routinely call Jews "descendants of pigs and monkeys". Mosques in the UK have been found to be stockpiling weapons and recruiting people for jihad in various hotspots. Various Islamic charities have been running as fronts for terrorist fundraising, including a prominent Saudi telethon for martyrs in Palestine. Abu Hamza is but one cleric convicted of promoting terrorism from his mosque. In the US, various Saudi associated schools have been found to have jihad promoting text books and rather racist approaches to Jews and Israel. Various American muslim groups have been found to be engaging in terrorism training and operating militia training camps. With these set of facts, any and every group should have undercover federal investigators swarming all over them. Just as the various nutburger militia groups did get subverted and infiltrated. The FBI and other agencies SHOULD be doing these kinds of things. Infiltrate and subvert all possibly violent and dangerous groups. KKK, Michigan Militia, ALF, ELF, environmentalist/animal rights groups, Mosques, etc. Edger: You really shouldn't be quoting material written be Mohammed Elmasry, the head of Canada's equivalent of CAIR. He's definitely immoderate, has a testy relationship with B'Nai Brith, complains about the "Jew controlled media" and believes that any use of the phrase "Islamic terrorist" is racist. His article has excellent numbers on the number of Muslims killed by Jews. He is absolutely correct that Israel has been engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign from 1948. I'm sure that with another few hundred wars on the scale of Suez and 6 day war they will manage to kill all of the muslims in Israel. With ten thousand, he will be set on killing all muslims. He nicely neglects to mention when the wars between Islam and Christians begin. It was not, as he claims, in the Crusades that the fighting began, but from the start of Islam, with the large Christian communities of the Roman Empire wrested from the Byzantines. I also seem to remember that Charles Martel got his name "The Hammer" from fighting in the South of France, while Ottoman Turks were laying siege to Vienna 950 years later. Then there was the extermination of the Crusader states. #s are fuzzy, but it would at least be fair to call it a draw between Muslims and Christians in terms of atrocities and murder. Between Jews and Muslims, numbers aren't even remotely even, thanks to the frequent pogroms in Muslim controlled territory during the Caliphate/Sultanate.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Wed May 17, 2006 at 02:51:45 AM EST
    Hey, after writing a laundry list of completely unsubstantiated claims designed to demonize people all through Islam in a wide swath of countries and trying to leave the impression that mosques everywhere are hiding places for piles of guns and hearts full of murderous hate, and doing so with no reference to any published statistics, then presumes to tell me who I should or shouldn't quote. Hey... You forgot to mention Aryan Nation in your list of groups you want The FBI and other agencies to infiltrate and subvert.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 05:33:16 AM EST
    Edger, I believe the FBI is already working on infiltrating groups like The Aryan Nation. As it should be; they are another bunch of idiots on a mission who need to be stopped. And if the next group of terrorists comes from a Southern Baptist church, then yes, the FBI should probably start watching them to. I don't believe that all muslims, or even the majority of them, are on the receiving end of the kind of hate-filled venom that we know some imams are spouting off on a regular basis, but we do know that some of them are, and without checking them out, how do we determine which are and which aren't? When your religion proposes converting the infidels by the sword, and your priests routinely issue death threats and mass exemptions of the rule against suicide if you do it while killing "the enemy", you deserve to be watched. If these were Catholic masses being watched because some Catholic priests had taken to this kind of preaching, I doubt you'd have a problem with it at all. As I said, I don't like the idea of the FBI watching churches, but I like the idea of Jihadi dimwits flying planes into buildings filled with people even less.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Wed May 17, 2006 at 06:18:28 AM EST
    I guess the only people left who haven't noticed that almost no one is buying the 'wot' fairy tail anymore are the ones who bought it. Hooked, lined, and sinkered. Of course those same will take the approval ratings as meaningless since bush can't run again, while hiding their heads in the sand from the real meaning of them... that no one is buying not just the thinking, but just about everything else bush represents. For some there is not a point they can't (or purposely won't) miss.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 06:25:32 AM EST
    That's a very pretty chart, Edger, but just what do you think it proves beyond the fact that people have rallied around a President they don't particularly like when something happened or when he tried to do somethng about it? How is this any different from Clinton's ratings going up after he bombed an aspirin factory to distract people from his coming impeachment? People always rally around the president when he acts in their name, if only to feel good about themselves. They then pull back when they realize they don't really approve of what he did. Not much of a story there. What any of this has to do with the FBI watching mosques is another matter altogether.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Wed May 17, 2006 at 06:29:00 AM EST
    Yessir, for some there is not a point they can't (or purposely won't) miss.....

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 07:07:23 AM EST
    falwell, robertson, phelps all preach hate from the pulpit and on public tv, their hate speech is at least as egregious as heard in some mosque.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#13)
    by orionATL on Wed May 17, 2006 at 07:13:15 AM EST
    in general, i think the federal government's treatment of arab muslims in america since sept 2001 has been truly shameful. whether it is interviewing arabs about their worship, arresting and trying arab speakers for various "terroristic" activities, searching mosques for nuclear signatures, intimidating lawyers, or eavesdropping on phone calls and e-mail, what i never seem to find in the related news stories is what i suppose a lawyer would call "reasonable suspicion". in short, there seems to be an "upon suspicion"and wholesale quality to at least some of the surveillance and police work. maybe there is more to this that i don't know, but, given the way this administration blabs about its activities when to its advantage, i am surprised i have not heard those exculpatory explanations from govt officials. in any event, let me recommend to readers here an article in the june 2006 issue of the atlantic. the title is "the education of ali al-timimi. the author is milton viorst. ali al-timimii is the muslim programmer and preacher (always called "cleric" in news stories) who was arrested, tried and sentenced in a trial involving paint-ball "wars" and rhetoric. the very touching aspect of this story is that the author, milton viorst, knew ali al-timimi personally. ali was a childhood best friend of viorst's son. ali was also an american citizen, computer programmer, and doctoral candidate when the feds took the time and effort to put him away for a long time. after reading this, one of the haunting questions about this case is that it seems to me entirely possible that al-timimi learned to speak and behave in the way he did because he was born here and schooled here until a teenager. imagine that! the guy may have learned about, and believed what he read about, freedom of speech and speaking out for your viewpoint. in any event, don't pass up a chance to read this story in the atlantic.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#14)
    by swingvote on Wed May 17, 2006 at 08:49:20 AM EST
    So what is it your trying to say Edgr? That people don't like Bush much? No surprise there. We've known that since at least January 20, 2001. That his poll ratings have gone up and down? No surprise there. That has happened for every president in history. So what is the point you claim to be making by posting a chart showing that his ratings have gone up and down, Edger? That you can link to other sites? Wow. I'm impressed. Meanwhile, the FBI is still investigating mosques, but Edger's too busy pointing out the obvious to even notice. You're right, Edger. Some people can't stop themselves from choosing to miss some things. Thanks for the example of such.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 09:12:39 AM EST
    Local Islamic leaders said they enlisted the ACLU's help LOL...big news there! The American Communist Liberties Union is hard at work screwing up the country as usual! Squeaky... My guess is that Muslims would not even be in the running I think your guess would be wrong.. or haven't you been paying attention lately? Most of the death & detruction going on in the world is directly related to Muslim (Islamic) crazies... (waiting with baited breath for you - or somebody on the left - to jump in and claim the US is responsible. After all, we are waging war in Iraq....yes??) Edger.... Yes, let's go back to the middle ages. That makes sense now and is a nice way for all of you to legitimize all the killing that's going on now. (we deserve it....right?) With that twisted logic... Evil governments in the past must still be evil. (Japanese...Germans..etc.) Besides, not to worry..if you insist on standing by the numbers, your Muslim buddies are making up for lost time and will surely even things out very soon... (much to your delight I'm sure? ) Sailor... falwell, robertson, phelps all preach hate from the pulpit and on public tv Although the people you mentioned all have "issues"...I'd hardly call what they preach as "hate"! Also, I've yet to here any of them call for an all out Jihad (IE - mass murder) of the people they "supposedly" hate!

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 10:25:00 AM EST
    Well, at least the FBI managed to browbeat a confession out of Hamid Hayat after spending a quarter million dollars on an informant to penetrate teh Lodi mosque. It's not hard to understand the LA community's worries.

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#17)
    by Sailor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 10:49:41 AM EST
    I'd hardly call what they preach as "hate"!
    "god hates homosexuality" - Jerry Falwell "You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. " - Robertson Jerry Falwell calls Islam's Prophet a "Terrorist" of just google

    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 10:56:22 AM EST
    That his poll ratings have gone up and down?
    Up and down? Really!? Check out this graphic
    President Bush's report card from the public for the first half-year of his second term is not a good one compared with how the public graded Presidents Reagan and Clinton at a similar point in time. Only President Nixon, who had by then begun to tumble into the abyss of Watergate, had a lower presidential approval rating.
    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#19)
    by Peaches on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:06:43 AM EST
    And, according to Falwell (on which Roberson concurred) we deserved to be attacked on 9/11.
    The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this ... I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.' ...to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.
    Re: FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Wed May 17, 2006 at 03:14:18 PM EST
    It is a toughie. Religous freedom is paramount, freedom from unlawful surveillance is paramount. I don't doubt for a second that our govt. would unfairly and unlawfully target muslim mosques. But if probable cause of criminal activity exists, you can't use your church as a cover.

    FBI Asked to Disclose Monitoring of Mosques | 20 comments (20 topical)