After all, he is the DA and his public statements are supposed to be truthful, are they not? Having unstated political motives calls those statements into question.

I understand, even though I have not been involved in the criminal defense world in a loooong time, that DA's will "play" with defense attorneys, delaying discovery for no good reason, delaying the disclosure for as long as they can, all if it part of the "game."

Over the years, Nifong earned a reputation among many Durham criminal attorneys as a tough prosecutor, but also a fair one: Aus said Nifong often gave the defense access to files beyond those he was required to turn over under North Carolina discovery laws.

... at the very least, ... retention (of the sub judice rule) is justified to keep alleged confessions, prior convictions and photographs of the accused from jurors and witnesses. Awareness of the first two of these is difficult to put out of mind, in spite of judicial instructions and warnings, and (is) seriously prejudicial.

... For a number of reasons, retention of the sub judice rule is compatible with the public interests in freedom of discussion and open justice. First, restrictions on publicity are for a limited time only, that is, the time during which proceedings are current or pending.

1. She was on the back porch, and the only neighbor who seemed to have the angle, or to be paying attention (Lord love his nosy little self) is one of the best witnesses the defense has.

She said she heard screaming, heard somebody crying in the house. And she heard a lot of noise, like something was breaking or somebody was falling over. And I asked her if she talked to anybody, and she said no.She said she didn't want to get involved in it, said she didn't want to go to court, she didn't want to be on TV or nothing (INAUDIBLE) She said she didn't want to have anything to do with it. And I asked her, I said, What if it had been your daughter? And she turned and walked off.

Have you provided any real evidence of Nifong's questionable integrity?

For others here, it's too bad that this comes from New South Wales, Australia.

2. True. But I think that one complaint and then nothing because she did not follow through is more prejudicial than probative. Add another one, another accusation of physical intimidation, restraint, injury, and if I were a betting woman I would say the judge lets it in, with limits. Still, it will get to the jury in some fashion, I think.

Still, it will get to the jury in some fashion, I think.

Much applause should go to the President of NC Central who has remained concerned, vigilent and dignified throughout all of this.

Nifong does not have a record of sandbagging defense attorneys.

Are we to believe a post written by someone with questionable integrity?

I do not need to do that, because the statement I was disputing was that "no one has ever accused him of a lack of integrity".

Significant yes, but not necessarily meaningful to prove either side. As I mentioned earlier, she could have scratched more than 1 person, and had a much higher odds in being lucky.

Finally, if you want a comment on statistics, here's mine for the time being: there is not a valid sample or premise on which to base a statistical analysis.

And, believe me, NOBODY can hold a candle to the smugness of an Ivy. Sorry, but come on: you love the Ivy League, you can't imagine one of your guys doing something like this.

To PB: Your feelings about Duke are quite obvious.

Litigation (criminal and civil) is full of crap like this. I have been dealing with these juvenile games for years, it accomplishes nothing other than disrupting my life, not the clients.

Okay, yes, just as pi**ing in the bushes is against the law, so is selling meal books. Call the NCAA, the FBI, hell, call Jack Bauer and have him remove them. Would you admit we are not talking major, recidivist perp here?

You never did any of the things these guys are charged with?

Maybe that idiot who sent that sick e-mail, and was rightly, and promptly, sent home..

IMHO. You never did any of the things these guys are charged with? Not all of them, certainly not suggesting that. But some of them? I sure as hell did, but have remarkably become a reasonably productive member of my comunity, despite my criminal but uncharged past

Then why the need to delay? Are you telling me you think that Nifong's fax, after 5 pm on a Friday, was . . . what? just one of those things?

Sorry, but law school 101 teaches to delay disclosure to the other side as much as possible.

remember it was the defense who leaked the information. Unlike other civilized countries, we don't have a code of ethics for defense attorneys.

Setting those aside, it still is a private institution which attempts to claim it provides an education equal to those which are publicly funded. (and subject to the added scrutiny of publicly funded institutions)

This is my school and my sport, and we are being depicted as racist, spoiled, rich, rude, etc, etc. I am having great difficulty with the accuser and have come to believe that Nifong is a buffoon, and is perpetuating these stereotypes. This will take a long time to heal, no matter what happens.

BTW, I make a living with statistics and, no offense, I'm not going to comment on previous posts attempting to use statistics.

Why not? Obviously we're struggling with it. If you know something about it, why not contribute?

If you're just here to stick your nose in the air, hey, go back to the racist, spoiled, rich, rude college from which you came. I'll stay here with the strippers.

Then why the need to delay? Are you telling me you think that Nifong's fax, after 5 pm on a Friday, was . . . what? just one of those things?

"A neighbor lady, who talked to, who told A, who talked to B, who went on Rita's show . . . how many degrees of hearsay are allowed before one wonders what was initially said?

The law may be an ass, but at times it is not all that stupid, either. Make a witness come forward, put his or her hand on the Good Book (waiting for the challenge to that part of our jurisprudence), and be examined before judge, jury, accused, and the public.

Have you provided any real evidence of Nifong's questionable integrity?

I do not need to do that, because the statement I was disputing was that "no one has ever accused him of a lack of integrity".

I'm sorry, but again, clearly there have been many posts which point to Nifong's integrity. Those can be found here

In addition, by your own logic how can anyone take your statements seriously ...

please stop regurgitating unfounded opinion as fact.

After thoroughly reviewing the case in his column on Monday, esteemed legal analyst Stuart Taylor, Jr. concluded that "accumulating evidence strongly suggests that the charge may well be a lie." He also put Nifong among a group of people - including Duke's professors and administrators - who should be "ashamed of themselves" for the way the case has been handled. Last night in an interview with Greta Van Susteren, Nifong tried to portray the primary vote as a referendum on his integrity. Hardly. His behavior in this case has been truly disturbing.

Attorneys declined to name the man who apparently had sex with the woman or to release the full DNA report.

Meanwhile, several defense lawyers had a telephone conference Saturday to further discuss the new DNA results.

Afterward, attorney Bill Thomas of Durham -- who represents an un-indicted lacrosse player -- said semen found in the dancer's body was "of recent origin" and had been deposited there "immediately prior to her being examined" in connection with the alleged rape.

"Not at liberty to say." It was your post, directed at Duke, but we are supposed to let that pass? It was ugly PB, and how else was someone supposed to take it, other than in the spirit it carried with it?

No prosecutor should ever, he or she should never, become involved the way Nifong did, unless and until the police brought him someone to indict, someone the police have convinced him, by all of the evidence, is guilty. Haven't seen anything like that yet.

I would like to respond to the repeated references to the "blue code of silence", the alleged failure of Duke players to speak to the police. I think this is very unfair.

If all they can say is that it didn't happen, the DA is clearly not interested.

...attorney Bill Thomas of Durham -- who represents an un-indicted lacrosse player -- said semen found in the dancer's body was "of recent origin" and had been deposited there "immediately prior to her being examined"...

One question with regard to the alleged neighbor who heard screaming--if she heard screaming why didn't Kim Roberts, the second stripper, hear it?

I would like to respond to the repeated references to the "blue code of silence", the alleged failure of Duke players to speak to the police.

I think this is very unfair. The day after the allegations were made, the police asked the three captains, residents of the house on Buchanan, to come be interviewed. They all went, no lawyers or parents, and were each interviewed for about 8 hours. They then voluntarily went to Duke Hospital for a rape suspect exam. All three asked to take lie detector tests but the police refused. (This was all reported in Newsweek.) Then Nifong began his 70-plus interviews in which he called the team members a bunch of hooligans and said he believed a rape took place.

Assuming the captains all said that no rape occurred, and assuming they were telling the truth (I realize some on this site will not be able to make this assumption) why would any other team members come forward? If all they can say is that it didn't happen, the DA is clearly not interested.

Cymro, I think you're missing the point about the comments on Nifong's integrity or lack thereof.

Yes, I also think Cymro is missing the point. Thank you january.

Sorry, but law school 101 teaches to delay disclosure to the other side as much as possible.

IMHO, prove that the AV and Roberts were crying. Give me any witness to the AV and Roberts crying at the house aside from the magic witness revealed to us by the AV's father, and the AV's own statement.

Put down the pompoms and the snark and give us some information.

The defense reported on Saturday that the DNA reports indicate recent sex (maybe motile sperm noted on exam) ruling out sex on another day. Since DAs/PD don't do prelim investigation weeks _after_ you indict (like swabbing a known sex contact), the May 3rd DNA sampling of the "boyfriend" essentially explains one part of the story. Looks like Nifong was boxed in. The Likely Scenario: 1. The rape exam at Duke found semen so Nifong was 100% sure that a sex act had occured. 2. The AV claimed no recent consensual sex so Nifong "knew" it had to be LAX DNA, 3. The DNA came back entirely negative (1st round) and Nifong was stunned since he knew that the serology and exam showed sex. 4. The Black community demanded a prosecution (the cheering NCCU gymnasium crowd) and Nifong promised to do it, publicly (on election eve). 5. Nifong indicted on Photo ID alone. 6. Nifong made the huge mistake (from his POV, not justice) of sending the material to a 2nd lab. 7. The 2nd DNA results came back around May 3rd showing a "mystery man" had had sex with her. 8. Nifong freaked, reinterviewed the AV with the new evidence in hand. She said "Oh, yeah, there was this guy...." 9. Nifong claimed to the media that the DNA "wasn't back yet" and LabCorp did a rush analysis matching one person to one sample (always the easiest).

PB's reply: Why not? Obviously we're struggling with it. If you know something about it, why not contribute? If you're just here to stick your nose in the air, hey, go back to the racist, spoiled, rich, rude college from which you came. I'll stay here with the strippers. I noticed 7duke4 didn't get all lathered up at his comment. She recognized it, because she wrote it.

In my legal career, I have found that the attorneys who play the Friday/deadline delay game,... tend to be the ones who are the most ethically challenged.

I think we may have to put the listening neighbor who heard the scream over in the dubious column for awhile.

If you want to believe the father about the unidentified witness next to the Buchanan house, you have to explain why he apparently misreported (or invented, or lied about) the broomstick.

And if you believe that, then you have to weigh the father's comments about the 1993 (1994?) rape, about which he said something to the effect that "those boys didn't do nothin' to her." That is, the AV's father said that his daughter filed a false rape charge back then.

The father has demonstrated that he is an unreliable source of information.

One could infer that his dishonesty may in fact have been handed down to his daughter as a means of reinterpreting unpleasant or otherwise inexplicable reality. That is, the AV grew up watching her father lie and adopted the behavior. Not good when the case depends so much on the AV being an honest broker of information.

The existence of a witness who overheard screaming is also questionable because a month after the father mentioned this, she has not appeared or been identified. One could explain why the DA may want to hold back this knowledge, but considering the media coverage, there would only be a limited number of houses in the neighborhood where someone would have heard what happened. It's hard to believe that at some point early on someone in the press didn't knock on doors to find out who heard what, even to asking Bissey if he knew other neighbors who complained about noise from the house.

Finally, there's the limited value of a neighbor hearing a scream. Roberts said that she heard or saw nothing that night that indicated to her that a rape had occurred. If the neighbor heard a blood-curdling cry or pleas to stop from a distance, you would have to explain why Roberts couldn't hear it.

Even if you can do that, what is the probative value of someone at a distance hearing a scream? What time? If it was at a time when the two were together that means it wasn't about a rape? Maybe the AV or Roberts herself screamed at something that one of the attendees did, either rude or threatening or just stupid and silly.

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for April 3 She said she heard screaming, heard somebody crying in the house. And she heard a lot of noise, like something was breaking or somebody was falling over. And I asked her if she talked to anybody, and she said no.She said she didn't want to get involved in it, said she didn't want to go to court, she didn't want to be on TV or nothing (INAUDIBLE) She said she didn't want to have anything to do with it. And I asked her, I said, What if it had been your daughter? And she turned and walked off.

The examples given, using the population of the team as the sample, are invalid...

The place to settle disagreements about guilt and innocence is in court, not in the backroom of the DA's office.

IMHO and possibly others have said in many previous threads that his integrity hasn't been questioned.....until now. The emphasis is mine and the phrase was implied rather than stated ...

most of us who've been reading these posts for awhile understood that

In interviews March 27 and 28, Nifong made several statements that helped transform the case into a national story.

Elaborating on the accuser's description of the attack, he compared the incident to the quadruple homicide in an Alpine Road townhouse and multiple cross burnings that outraged the city last year.

Nifong said all three cases were serious enough that he would prosecute them personally.

He implied that members of the lacrosse team were engaging in a conspiracy of silence.

"I would like to think that somebody [not involved in the attack] has the human decency to call up and say, 'What am I doing covering up for a bunch of hooligans?' " he said.

Nifong expressed confidence that the DNA would be important to filing charges. "By next week, we'll know precisely who was involved," he said shortly after the samples were taken.

1. The rape exam found semen. As the AV is not a virgin and has a boyfriend and Nifong knew it, there were no surprises there.

I actually was furious, but others replied quite well, and I was brought up as a southern lady. And a later non-apology and comment by PB is still attacking lacrosse. Nice. None of this is productive.

Statistics use a defined sample, with results expressed with confidence levels and standard deviations. The examples given, using the population of the team as the sample, are invalid - some team members were not there (see above) and you really don't know who was there.

I don't think that Nifong is incompetent at all. And while I think that he may have pumped up this case for political gain, I think the reason why he pursued the case was that initially the AV's story was credible enought to pursue.

For those who believes in the case should be considered and in terms of statistics, could someone enlighten me whether the statistics could predict the likelihood of a specific person die in a car crash caused by other drunk-and-drive driver?

If statistics could be the basis of how the world operates, there will be no place for religion in human society.

Actually, IMHO, way back I said that the AV's comment that both she and Roberts were frightened and crying, from her interview, sounded to me like an "add-on." That is, it sounded like an embellishment in order to make her story more believable.

We really need to know what the AV was saying and to whom. Yesterday there was the story that the AV said that both dancers were crying, but there seems to be no evidence, photos or what Roberts said or what Bissey observed, that either woman was crying while they were at Buchanan. This would suggest, like the "20 rapists" yet another false report of fact by the AV in the morning of the 14th.

So why do you think azballfan didn't use that argument once when responding to my posts?

In other words, This neighboring woman does not want to take responsibility for the veracity of her words. Or, perhaps, she is not so sure.

Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong said another search warrant was issued in the case, but the judge who signed it ordered it sealed.

"I would like to think that somebody who was not in the bathroom has the human decency to call up and say, 'What am I doing covering up for a bunch of hooligans?' " Nifong said. "I'd like to be able to think that there were some people in that house that were not involved in this and were as horrified by it as the rest of us are."

Cymro, you can fight with AZBBF all you want to - I'm just telling you what most of us thought IMHO meant, and IMHO has confirmed it.

Do you people always go on like this with worthless scenerios? No wonder our legal system is such a joke and OJ got off. You can talk yourselves into anything. The girl lied and messed up 3 kids lives. She should go to jail and Nifong shold be right behind her. I hope the RICH white boys are rich enough to sue her for her last 3 cents and send her off to prison and I hope Nifong gets gang raped by the Black Panthers.

PB, your previous comment about Duke and the implication of those who attend Duke or side with the players really opened my eyes. No wonder conservatism has a lot of room to grow, since sometimes self-appointed liberals could sound no different from fundamnetalist as well.

The rape exam found semen. As the AV is not a virgin and has a boyfriend and Nifong knew it, there were no surprises there.

He has maintained all along that 1) the tests might not show anything conclusive, and 2) you need a lot more than just DNA evidence to prosecute.

There have been numerous comments to the effect that [Nifong] must be honorable, have integrity, want to do the right thing. The role of the prosecutor is to find the truth and make sure justice is done, not to represent an AV as a client.

The 40+ players have told others that "nothing happened" that night, yet they have not come forward to speak to the police.

And, again, regarding the neighbor who heard maybe a cry, maybe a scream, maybe something breaking, maybe anything that might somehow fit into the AV's story: What proof do you have that the neighbor exists?

Nifong, who presonally decided to take the case, in my opinion figuratively raped the AV by using her for his political advantage.

The reason that I took this case is because this case says something about Durham that I'm not going to let be said," said Nifong. "I'm not going to allow Durham's view in the minds of the world to be a bunch of lacrosse players at Duke raping a black girl from Durham."

The 40+ players have told others that "nothing happened" that night, yet they have not come forward to speak to the police. Should we take this to mean they do "not want to take responsibility for the veracity" of their words? Or, that, perhaps, they are "not so sure?"

Perhaps the prosecution did not even bother to cover the neighborhood first.

I offered you the choice: If the broomstick as sodomizer story is part of the police report, then why didn't the police search for the broom? Did they find it at the dump before they executed the search warrant on the house?

If the daughter told him, as the father says, that she was sodomized by the broom then she owns the story. Your choice: her story or her father's story. If it's her story, then why didn't she tell the cops? Maybe too embarrassed, or maybe she hadn't made up the story yet. Maybe it was an embellishment when the first round of DNA came back negative.

You never explained how the father's opinion that the 1993 rape claim was false is controlled merely by the fact that it was kept a secret from him at the time.

And if you believe that, then you have to weigh the father's comments about the 1993 (1994?) rape, about which he said something to the effect that "those boys didn't do nothin' to her." That is, the AV's father said that his daughter filed a false rape charge back then.

In any event, if they aleardy said no rape occured, then what exactly are they supposed to say if that is what they believe?

Cymro, you can fight with AZBBF all you want to - I'm just telling you what most of us thought IMHO meant, and IMHO has confirmed it.

IMHO,

In terms of the broom, didn't you link to a report that there was "another" (i.e., possibly a second) search warrant that was sealed

IMHO: How about we start with baby steps - 40+ witnesses come forward - no swearin' on Bibles necessary, no judge, no jury, no accused - just come forward and tell what happened that night.

january and IMHO, I don't know how or why you claim to speak for "most of us".

And to everyone else, including me, the intended recipient, that comment was just meaningless gobbledygook, which I ignored as such.

The problem with your comment is the order in which you think the events took place. Putting Nifong's first public comments in their proper place in the sequence of events totally blows your argument

OK what about the DNA. Consistent is all you got. Undefined term which legal means, no match found. Forget it. DNA as small as the head of a pin would give matches with kind of 1 in a million odds.

Given how this prosecutor has acted in press conferences, in public forums, in threatening both sides witnesses with anything in their record, would you honestly speak with this guy without a lawyer or three present? If you say yes you are a serial liar or the biggest fool in the country.

I think this is very unfair. The day after the allegations were made, the police asked the three captains, residents of the house on Buchanan, to come be interviewed. They all went, no lawyers or parents, and were each interviewed for about 8 hours. They then voluntarily went to Duke Hospital for a rape suspect exam. All three asked to take lie detector tests but the police refused. (This was all reported in Newsweek.) Then Nifong began his 70-plus interviews in which he called the team members a bunch of hooligans and said he believed a rape took place.

Assuming the captains all said that no rape occurred, and assuming they were telling the truth (I realize some on this site will not be able to make this assumption) why would any other team members come forward? If all they can say is that it didn't happen, the DA is clearly not interested.

Realistically, what would that accomplish? 40+ coordinated statements coming from the "Blue Wall of Silence?"

Realistically, none of them are going to be allowed to just come forward and tell what happened that night. They are going to be GRILLED on what happened that night. Any minor inconsistencies would be exploited to the maximum and could lead to any of them being indicted on other charges -- like providing beer to minors, followed by even more negative media publicity.

It must be hard dancing on the head of a pin.

Don't take me literally about everybody wanting all rape victims being virgins. I was talking about the general attitude, though. Otherwise, why such glee that they found the boyfriend DNA on a swab from the AV? Why did so many say the case was over when that came out? So, she had sex. Big Deal. I think Nifong did know, or was at least smart enough to guess. How do you know he didn't?

IMHO, "most of us" "everyone"?

Even drive-by sniping requires you pay a little bit of attention.

Everyone keeping up with these threads knows SLOphoto is referring to my comment that no one has come of with a precedent for unethical behavior on Nifong's part.

And to everyone else, including me, the intended recipient, that comment was just meaningless gobbledygook, which I ignored as such.

Yesterday you were speaking for everyone.

I don't mind being corrected, though. Just produce the witness.

If there is a witness to a case of the rape of your daughter, and that witness talked to you but refused to come forward, what would you do?

You would tell Nifong about that witness.

Can we presume that if such a witness exists that Nifong knows about her?

Can we presume that if such a witness exists that the defense knows about her?

So we apparently have a different wall of silence, a joint DA-defense wall of silence. A wall of silence has been joined by all of the media who refuse to look for the mystery witness.

I doubt the existence of this witness. I doubt the father's story. I doubt if such a witness existed that she would add considerably to anything probative about whether or not a rape occurred.

1. C'mon Kali. Ever take a depo? Once the witness says he believes no tort occurred is that that when you pack it in saying, "Well, I'm sorry I wasted everyone's time. I thought the witness might have something useful to say about the case."

But for all 70 interviews to be off the radar screen? Isn't that odd?

Differences of opinion are fine, but people should try to be logical and honest when they debate them.

The anger comes from many things but mostly every time I hear about the "Blue wall of Silence". Every Duke lacrosse player is intensely dedicated, mentally and physically, to win a national championship. It is something that only athletes at the highest level understand....the intense desire and commitment to win a national champion, not just have a chance. As I've said before there is no way in hell that 43 of these boys would let that opportunity slip away to protect 3 players.

IMHO: I am not saying telling the truth of what happened in that house that night is without peril, I'm saying it is the right thing to do.

IMHO,

The daughter filed a rape report years after the alleged event. The father's considered opinion after 13 years is that the alleged rapists didn't rape her. The father is aware that she filed a rape charge against those three men.

Go ahead and slice it however you please. If the father knows she filed a charge of rape and he thinks it didn't happen, he thinks the AV filed a rape charge for a rape that didn't happen. A FALSE RAPE CHARGE.

And if you believe that, then you have to weigh the father's comments about the 1993 (1994?) rape, about which he said something to the effect that "those boys didn't do nothin' to her." That is, the AV's father said that his daughter filed a false rape charge back then.

If I could do it over again and was offered a million dollars and a free education at any school to not attend Duke, I would turn it down. I cherish my Duke experience as most Duke graduates do.

When there's a national media story like this and the father of the accuser says on TV that there's a mystery witness, it won't be a mystery for long. Unless she doesn't exist. I would be surprised that he wasn't repeatedly asked who it was that night. How many potential listening neighbors can there be? How many yards abut the Buchanan house? How many across the street? Let's say there's ten houses close enough to hear. How long does it take for someone from FOX to knock on ten doors? Twenty doors? Thirty doors? Whoa, here comes CSPAN, followed by MSNBC.

Honestly, then I must ask you again. Suppose it is as you say the "right thing to do" for the lax players to tell the truth of what happened in that house that night, even though they would be risking further charges brought against them if they do so.

Then why is that not even MORE so the "right thing to do" for Kim to tell the truth of what happened in that house that night, when she isn't risking any charges against her at all?

A week later, Roberts' escort agency told her police wanted to talk to her about a possible rape. After she gave a statement, police arrested her for the probation violation.

The rest of the team cancelled the meeting with police investigators before Nifong made ANY public statements, therefore his statements can not be used as the reason for the "Blue Wall of Silence."

On the possibility of a broomstick being used and the father's claims, we don't have the accuser's police report, but we do have her statement in the photo array. This contains no mention of being assaulted by a broom, nor does it mention the alleged attackers using condoms. It seems to me that Nifong is pretty much stuck with the description of the attack as offered by the accuser, even though, in light of the DNA evidence, it no longer suits his purposes.

You know, every girl on my freshman hall was top of their high school class, half had won beauty contests, and all were jocks. Talk about well rounded. Talk about intimidating. And it's only gotten more selective.

The Blue Wall of Silence is a particular affront in that there is a presumption of guilt.

I am confident and willing to debate anyone mathematically on this issue.

The meeting was cancelled on March 22. As of that date, according to the Raleigh News and Observer, Nifong had given "frequent interviews in the local and national media".

Durham police spoke with the team's coach, who arranged a team meeting on March 22 for all members to talk with investigators and possibly provide DNA samples. A few hours before the meeting was to take place, a lawyer called investigators and said the team would not show up and that they had hired legal counsel.

Nifong later obtained a court order forcing team members to submit samples last Friday

The N&O reported March 24 that a judge had ordered members of the team to submit DNA evidence for testing -- the first public report linking lacrosse players to an alleged rape.

mmyy, If the AV invented the story about the broomstick being a sodomizing agent (that's if you believe that the father didn't invent the story or Nifong was too stupid to search for it) and if you find her version of events of both her and Roberts in fear and crying when the broomstick remark was made by an attendee at the party, then you have a pattern of embellishment.

I was the first one who suggested this probablity calculation. I am pretty confident about it to. I got education involving statistics in graduate level. I should note that this doesn't require graduate level knowledge of statistic knowledge. Your example about eye colors is irrelevant. In our case every subject has a different DNA, compared your eaxmple everyone having the same eye color. I am confident and willing to debate anyone mathematically on this issue.

I hope TL doesn't delete this post, but leaves it up for you and others to read.

You might think the only thing that could possibly cure him of his delusions is having to walk in those shoes, but you're probably wrong. He is without the personal integrity for that.

When questioned about his own education, he's unable to admit to any details (protecting his privacy, don't you know, but one can reasonably assume it was an institution less competitive and selective than Duke) and is oblivious to the hypocrisy of demanding so much more than that from the players.

The AV could walk in his door, slap him in the face, tell him she thinks it was a false accusation - but she was too loaded to be sure, and has sex with too many strangers to keep track of who put what where when - and he'd still want this case to go to trial.

We've yet to see what all is entailed in that statement. I'm sure there are many things that went on that night that are not mentioned in the photo array. The description of what she claims Finnerty did to her was pretty brief.

I specifically excluded DNA from my previous post. DNA is science. I was referring to an analysis made earlier that was based on a sample of only the LAX team.

And to azbballfan, are you actually trying to make the case that Duke's student body has less qualifications than the average university? As my daughter would say, ahahahahahaha! Envy does not suit you.

About statistics...... For the sake of argument, assume for whatever reason the AV is lying. She knows that. She remembers Reade from early in the evening but failed to see him leave early. Big mistake there. She has to pick 3 lucky guys from a photo lineup of only guys on the team, most of whom were at the party. She remembers touching or scratching someone in the fight over the money ($800 bucks for a few minutes dance is expensive by any standards). She was mad at him, so she picks him. Kind of hurts the statistics argument. The ID and the DNA have to be independent events for any such argument to hold up and there are many scenarios where they are not independent events. Especially if the AV is lying.

Kind of hurts the statistics argument. The ID and the DNA have to be independent events for any such argument to hold up and there are many scenarios where they are not independent events.

WHAT WILL HAPPEN TODAY? If Nifong decides to submit the case, police investigators and possibly other witnesses will try to convince grand jurors in a secret session that the state has probable cause to bring a case forward. Grand jurors will hear only the prosecution's side of the case. The standard required for a true bill of indictment is far lower than the beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard required for a conviction.

I specifically excluded DNA from my previous post. DNA is science. I was referring to an analysis made earlier that was based on a sample of only the LAX team.

NBC News reported Monday that the woman [the accuser] was expected to appear before the grand jury.

NBC17 News has confirmed that a lacrosse player who expects to be indicted was in Durham Monday with his parents and planned to post bond and make a public statement immediately after being charged.

I wonder if she'll have had enough time to get her blonde dreadlocks wig freshened up and her fake nails redone?

CBS News obtained an exclusive copy of the entire identification report. In it, the accuser identifies one of her alleged attackers, the one expected to be indicted today, saying he looks "just like him without the mustache." The accuser said the person had a mustache.

But defense sources tell CBS News there are pictures of this player both the day before and the day after the party without a mustache. The defense will also likely question the alleged victim's credibility. For example when she was presented with the picture of the other player, whose inconclusive DNA was found under her fingernail, she said she didn't recognize him. In all, she identified four people she believed looked like her attackers.

If DNA got transferred through the trash can in the bathroom, there is not an equal likelihood that each of the players' DNA would be in the trash can. There would be a much higher likelihood for the persons who live there and use that bathroom. Also, the photo ID process is not random either. If one of the captains who lived there hired the AV, she may have a better memory of his face and possibly other reasons to target him (e.g., money dispute, even with no "scratching").

And the reort also adds whatever the genetic material they did find on the one fake nail, it was not blood.

I could go through the posters on here and put them in the two belief camps, quite easily. Quite amazing how people can analyze the smae facts and reach 180 degree different conclusions.

Pick your fact. Each of them can, it seems, be spun both ways.

The father knew enough about it to form an opinion. Maybe his wife and daughter lied to him about the rape, though. Maybe they lied to the press about lying to the father.

And if you believe that, then you have to weigh the father's comments about the 1993 (1994?) rape, about which he said something to the effect that "those boys didn't do nothin' to her." That is, the AV's father said that his daughter filed a false rape charge back then.

There was no reports of crying consistent with the AV's version, which in any case doesn't dovetail with the magical missing neighbor hearing the screams of a woman being raped, as reported to us by the man who claims his daughter told him she was sodomized by a broomstick and who told us his daughter filed a false rape charge in the past.

Again, assuming the DNA belongs to one of the three captains who lived there, there is a much greater than a 1 in 17 chance that she would pick one of these individuals and that such individual's DNA would be in the trash.

Also, just because she purported to identify and remember 17 players does not mean she was not lying

"I tried to meet with the D.A. this morning, and he was unavailable," defense attorney Joseph Cheshire, who represents one of the team's uncharged captains, said Monday. Nifong has said little about the case in public, and Cheshire has previously complained Nifong has refused to meet or communicate.

For example when she was presented with the picture of the other player, whose inconclusive DNA was found under her fingernail, she said she didn't recognize him.

What funny times we live in.

The media seems no where near as interested when black men are accused of raping a white woman as when white men are accused of raping a black woman.

I wonder why that is? Perhaps white privilege is the explanation.

NBC17 News has confirmed that a lacrosse player who expects to be indicted was in Durham Monday with his parents and planned to post bond and make a public statement immediately after being charged.

But defense attorneys said the third player accused lived at the house and it is no surprise that trace amounts of his DNA could be found inside his own trashcan. They also said they don't believe the type of fingernails that were found -- the kind that are applied with an adhesive strip -- actually ripped off during an attack. They don't believe the fingernails were ever applied, and they said they have pictures to prove it. NBC-17 has seen a picture of the dancer's hand at the house when she performed her dance routine. It appears that long, fake fingernails were on some of her fingers in that photo, but not all of them.

But of those 17 individuals, she is likely to have had more "interactions" with some than others. E.g., exchanging cash, getting a drink, comments made, etc. The persons who lived there, who ran the party, are much more likely to have achieved greater salience in her memory.

In terms of the 17 players, I am not saying that the 17 players were not present. I am just suggesting the possibility that her IDs may have been made with greater particularity that her actual memory.

However, tension seems to be rising between the prosecution and the defense. In a hallway confrontation today at the Durham County courthouse, Nifong laced into defense lawyer Kerry Sutton in an expletive-laden tirade where he complained angrily about last Friday's defense news conference.

I dont know if its wise on your part to be accusing folks of being lacking in logic.

What is curious to me is that those whom advocate for the AV, do not and will not criticize how Nifong has jeoparized this case unnecessarily

I'm thinking the indictments were premature. Nifong should have taken more time. Assuming that the medical evidence is persuasive as to a rape having occurred (a big but necessary assumption_, the key issue is identification of the assailants. If the alleged victim was impaired due to alcohol or a date rape drug her ID will need some corroboration.

1. The rape exam at Duke found semen so Nifong was 100% sure that a sex act had occured. 2. The AV claimed no recent consensual sex so Nifong "knew" it had to be LAX DNA, 3. The DNA came back entirely negative (1st round) and Nifong was stunned since he knew that the serology and exam showed sex.

"ABC News' Law & Justice Unit was given exclusive details about the latest DNA report in the Duke lacrosse rape investigation and was shown and reviewed parts of the 10-page document. According to the DNA report, tests specifically designed to look for semen found none on swabs of the alleged victim's mouth or genital areas. .................. However, numerous prosecutors have told ABC News that a rape could have occurred and that convictions were possible even if there was no semen found on the accuser. ................. Another man is the alleged victim's boyfriend, and defense attorneys identified him in a news conference as the "single source" of DNA found to date in vaginal swabs of the accuser".

No semen found? But BF linked? Poor writing or was there something other than semen linking the BF?

But he said he did not necessarily expect the DNA samples taken last Thursday from the team's 46 white players to match evidence taken from the accuser.

"I would not be surprised if condoms were used," he said.

You are much more reasoned and subdued that some others who post on this here.

And whoever started the "Blue wall of silence" crap should be beat with a stick. ......... If you say yes you are a serial liar or the biggest fool in the country.

Those who think the AV is lying don't necessarily think she pulled a name out of a hat or a marble out of a bag. Assuming she is lying, she would most likely pick someone she remembered more strongly than the others, and maybe someone who angered her.

No semen found? But BF linked? Poor writing or was there something other than semen linking the BF?

Assuming she is lying, she would most likely pick someone she remembered more strongly than the others, and maybe someone who angered her.

(b) some players are much more likely to have been picked in the photo line-up, even with no physical contact or scratching, and

However the coordinated efforts to withold testimony and evidence is a clear indication that they are guilty of something.

Without them, there are too many alternate explanations

beenaround posted:

What funny times we live in. The media seems no where near as interested when black men are accused of raping a white woman as when white men are accused of raping a black woman. I wonder why that is? Perhaps white privilege is the explanation.

I know Kali hates to hear this, but the hook of this story is "The Blue Wall of Silence."