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Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Colorado


DLR Group

Zacarias Moussoui flew by private jet today from Alexandria, Virginia to the Supermax (AdMax) at Florence, Colorado, the most secure prison in the country.

He will spend his days alone in a 8 by 10 or 7 × 12 foot cell, in 23 hour a day isolation. His meals will be delivered through a slot in his cell door. The shower will be brought to his cell. His one hour a day of exercise will be with a guard, not other inmates. He will have no contact with other inmates.

In time, if he's good, he may work his way up from a windowless cell to one in another unit with a small window where he can see the sky and clouds and may be able to see other prisoners (who can't see him due to a one-way mirror finish on the internal window.) He may be able to get his lights turned off at night.

All in all, this will be a dismal, dehumanizing, psychologically debilitating existence for him. The prospect of winning his appeal will keep him going. Should he lose all of his appeals, he will have nothing to look to forward to but decades of confinement under these conditions. What a wretched way to spend one's life.

More info at Supermaxed.com and here and in this Denver Post article.

In other Moussaoui news, the jury forewoman speaks out and says there was a lone, anonymous holdout for life over death.

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  • I know not whether Laws be right, Or whether Laws be wrong; All that we know who lie in gaol Is that the wall is strong; And that each day is like a year, A year whose days are long.
    The Ballad of reading Gaol. And won't he know it. If his sanity was in doubt before this, then under these inhuman conditions, I fear it will not be so for much longer. The man will become demented, as I am sure that those already serving sentences under such conditions will, if not already, also become. Were one to keep a domestic pet in such isolation and totaly devoid of contact and such lack of interaction, I wonder where the law would stand on such cruelty. It is inhumane. Roxtar's excellent philisophical look at death versus a lifetime in jail.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#2)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 13, 2006 at 03:09:54 PM EST
    oscar writes:
    Were one to keep a domestic pet in such isolation and totaly devoid of contact and such lack of interaction, I wonder where the law would stand on such cruelty.
    If a domestic pet was involved with a terrorist attack killing 3000 people, the pet would have been dead, long, long, long ago. Tell me oscar, why the sympathy for someone who did what he did?

    Jim why are you so f'g predicable. You couldn't get to the keyboard quick enough could you? Spew it out Jim, let the vitriol flow. Did you by any chance understand what I wrote? Shorter. An animal would not be kept under such conditions,particularly by a nation purporting to be civilised. The punishment that is incarceration, is just that, the depredation of freedom. Not the conditions that people are kept under.
    If a domestic pet was involved with a terrorist attack
    What scrap of evidence is there that he was involved in a terrorist attack? Don't answer it's rhetorical.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Sat May 13, 2006 at 03:45:57 PM EST
    Jim, I think Oscar is merely attempting to point out that this type of "incarceration" is no more civilized than that executioner's needle. I think he is suggesting another type of incarceration that does not dehumanize, but instead attempts to humanize. That prison need not be merely a hole, but a place to genuinely change. If the change doesn't happen, nothing has been lost. If it does, there is only gain for society. And please don't give me coddling or furlough talk, I'm still talking all of this in a "prison" setting. I, and Oscar, are only saying we should always strive to be better.

    Daddler "I wish I had said that" Berard Shaw? Thank you, I try to keep emotion out of it, but it aint easy. So maybe you can follow me round and say what I meant to say.

    Bernard Shaw to non other than the darling Oscar.

    I never saw a man who looked With such a wistful eye Upon that little tent of blue Which prisoners call the sky, And at every drifting cloud that went With sails of silver by.
    The year of our Lord. 1896
    In time, if he's good, he may work his way up from a windowless cell to one in another unit with a small window where he can see the sky and clouds
    The year of our Lord. 2006

    TL. From your link to the Denver Post.
    requested $ 23 million to build up to '24 new super-secure cells
    Haliburton then?

    TL. Why so the lights 24/7. Suicide watch? I ask because the penal system seems to go somewhat overboard, as in shackles and manacles for various catagories of inmates. Seems a bit OTT considering these are not quite open prisons, and the odds of doing a runner are remote to say the least. How are you received at the jail, I have read your articles, are you considered friend, foe or just doing your job?

    While in college, I read how John Stuart Mill argued in favor of the death penalty on the grounds that life imprisonment was the most inhumane sort of punishment, and worse than death; death, therefore, being the most reasoned and humane option. I bought into it like a Texan to Dry-Rub. But I plead a kind of Flippy-Floppyness on this Moossaoui matter. (David Byrne's phrase, not Karl Rove's) In this country-in the present day-enlightened discussion addressing the efficacy of the death penalty seems to have been shouted down by the "eye for an eye" crowd ( the true Texas BBQ contingent). I'm not in favor of the way a death penalty has been meted out so frequently, and possibly improperly by these people, and people like them. Nor am I convinced Moussaoui is the person he was convicted of being. If the feds needed a strawman, better i suppose, he be locked away forever rather than killed in the name of vengeance (come on, thats what its all about) for 911. I dont believe it would be right to kill a strawman, but neither do I see the value of putting him away for life at tremendous cost to the public. Methinks my gut would have me walking a more clear path here if i believed they had someone of consequence in custody.

    Raul. In truth I haven't followed the case. Just snippets here and there. At best I think it's very shoddy, at worst it gets worse. With not following it closely it does not become me to argue too strongly. It is the inordinate sentencing that abounds in the country, it's almost the national sport to see how many people can be jailed for obscene lenghts of time, this level of jail time, in most European countries, is inconceivable. The John Mill philosophy can be found at the top of these comments linked under Roxtar.

    "Methinks my gut would have me walking a more clear path here if i believed they had someone of consequence in custody." You, I believe, are quite correct. Unfortunately, this makes our judicial system no different than that utilized by the North Vietnamize with our POWs. Welcome to Justice for Propaganda. If not a victim, try to be entertained.

    good lord, have we been Northvietnamized? is that what this is? good oscar, thanks for the heads up. who knew being a Roxstar required so much grey matter?

    Raul. It's late, I am off to the feathers. If you haven't before, try the poem sometime. Fraternally.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#16)
    by cpinva on Sat May 13, 2006 at 09:43:30 PM EST
    the "eye for an eye" crowd, as usual, misuses the bible for their own perverted purposes. it was a warning, not a mandate. well, it would appear my contention, that mr. moussaoui, was, indeed, the winner, has been borne out, by his incarceration in detention facilities that are the very essence of the 8th's prohibition against "cruel and unusual punishment". i'll bet their mothers are so proud! this merely serves to prove, to the fanatics, the corruption of the christian west. could we possibly be any stupider? i think not.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Sat May 13, 2006 at 09:57:09 PM EST
    Alcatraz had similar arrangements for years until they found that too many prisoners were snapping, killing themselves etc. Trolls teetering on the edge of dementia who's reason for living is seeking out barbarism as an excuse to be barbaric should know when to be grateful that they're tolerated here and when to keep their mouths shut.

    There are rules for some and there are rules for others, and in this case there are new rules. More classic humour from Bill Maher and includes a plea to shrub. And let it not be forgotten that in medieval times they also had their own version of "Supermax" I have had the dubious pleasure of seeing the English version first hand. Far more cosy than the continental model being no larger than a bathtub, and a small one at that. Grim might be a kind way to describe it. How much despair would a person be capable of when stuffed in that tiny hole and the grill slammed shut knowing that you were quite literally being forgotten. The finest medieval castle in the world, Warwick boasts a pretty gruesome collection of instruments of torture. People must have been willing to admit to anything only to have the pain stop. It's reassuring, that like burning witches, that we have moved on from that sort of thing. Well worth a visit though if you are ever doing the tour.

    TL. What a naive fellow you must think I am, and that my questions were in someway linked with a regime that even had the slightest pretense of being something other than totally evil. Having read some of the articles at the Supermaxed.com site, what emotions now lie within? Those of horror, disgust, shock and sheer disbelief that such institutions exist and are allowed to flourish, and here I use the term ever so loosely, if not with the derision that is truly warranted, in this civilized and oh so pious christian nation. What is all the fuss about concerning renditions, when this abomination thrives in the heartland of America? Of the lone juror that held firm against the death penalty, I think Moussaoui will curse this man to hell for every breaking day for the rest of his miserable and tragic life. However, unlike the chicken hawks who bang the big war drum, and whose desire to see sand terminates when they find themselves in the company of an egg timer, I shall not sit here on my ever increasing arse, and just write about such horrors. As is described in many of the articles on the web page, that prisoners are sent there to rot, I too in my own small way have been rotting away these last couple of years. Therefore, for reasons both selfish and altruistic, I shall galvanize myself and enter into the realm of prison reform or prisoner support. This I say not lightly, or look upon lghtly, as I make my pledge in this forum.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#20)
    by HK on Sun May 14, 2006 at 04:41:37 AM EST
    Like Oscar, I find it difficult to stomach a so-called civilised nation confining a person for the rest of their life in this manner. The aspect I find particularly inhumane is the lack of darkness at night. It has been shown that constant and artificial light is detrimental to health and well-being, as discussed here. I too find the number of prisoners the US is willing to put away for LWOP excessive. While some sentences in the UK seem rather light, to lock up so many and throw away the key is both costly and unnecessary. The problem is that while there is the (arguably) greater evil of capital punishment to fight against, those whose sentence is LWOP have few people fighting their cause. I once read a comment by someone who said rather bitterly that if the death penalty was ever abolished, people who had fought against it would then turn their attentions to fighting against the oft used LWOP. Damn right!! Moussaoui strikes me as a bit of a fruitcake who perhaps would not ever be safe to free, but there are many who manage to rehabilitate despite the prison system seemingly doing everything to stack the odds against them. To keep these people locked away for life does everyone a disservice. Oscar, I commend you for your decision to look into being proactive in the area of prison reform/prisoner support. I can tell you from experience that it is an enriching experience. And there is, in my opinion, no such thing as a selfless act. Virtue is its own reward. I'm sure you can find many worthy organisations through the internet, but I can recommend a couple, if you would like. Just let me know.

    HK. If you would be so kind, yes to your offer. I have sent a couple of mails off since I commented, but there is, as you say, a multitude of orgs to sort through. Northernpoet@btinternet.com Anon. Spanish GP ready for the off.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sun May 14, 2006 at 09:39:32 AM EST

    Scapegoats are great... Especially when they are too ill to defend themselves. You can just throw them in a hole like a piece of trash, and the best part is you never have to look in a mirror or think about your own complicity in creating the social conditions that lead to people trying to wake you up.

    George W. Bush, State of the F***ing Union - January 31,2006:
    We have entered a great ideological conflict we did nothing to invite.
    Right, George...

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Sun May 14, 2006 at 09:45:20 AM EST
    He might as well have said its the work of the Devil..

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Sun May 14, 2006 at 09:52:38 AM EST
    He pretty much did, didn't he? In a sense he'd never understand though.

    Why have I inheritted you?

    Republicans had the knowledge go stop Bush before he became the biggest mass murderer and torturer of the twenty first century, but, still I don't think they should be executed. They should be in a cell.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#33)
    by HK on Sun May 14, 2006 at 01:28:34 PM EST
    Jim, your insinuation that you somehow represent the vicitms is puzzling. Firstly, the criminal justice system is not merely concerned with avenging those who have been wronged; it is a multi-faceted approach to unacceptable behaviour in society and to your continuing refusal to acknowledge this shows you miss the point. Secondly, a brief look at the Journey of Hope website will reveal that not all victims/relatives of victims support the death penalty or the concept of vengence. The state and those who claim to be acting in the name of victims are putting themselves in a very precarious position when they use their wishes to support a course of action. Do we have the death penalty for murderers of victims who support it and not for those whose victims did not? Such a suggestion is, of course, unworkable and ludicrous. Therefore the wishes of the victim and their family must consistantly either be taken into consideration or not.
    The few murders we execute in this country are almost always people who killed in cold blood.
    Stats and links, please. Jim:
    My problem is not the argument you make that it is not a proper sentence in some cases, but your position that it is not proper in this case.
    HK:
    Moussaoui strikes me as a bit of a fruitcake who perhaps would not ever be safe to free
    Was there a part of this that you did not understand? I never said that LWOP was not proper in this case.

    PPJ, I'm not a big Hillary fan, but, I'm pretty sure she said what she did because of the lies of Bushpig, and his cronies.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#38)
    by HK on Sun May 14, 2006 at 02:07:47 PM EST
    I make that statement as a flat fact
    By 'flat', you mean 'unsubstantiated', I gather. I have neither time, reason nor inclination to provide evidence to disprove something of which you offer no proof. You continue to argue against something I have not said (that Moussaoui is undeserving of incarceration) while refusing to address my comments about victims. I notice you also frequently use your age and/or your citizenship as some sort of trump card, in this and other threads. I wonder why that is.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Sun May 14, 2006 at 02:13:47 PM EST
    Where did anyone on this thread say Massaoui shouldnt be imprisoned for life?

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#43)
    by BigTex on Sun May 14, 2006 at 03:33:47 PM EST
    Oscar your anamosity towards religion blinds you to the truth of this case. Religion has nothing to do with the measures taken. If less secure measures were taken then Missouai's death would inevidably be hastned at the hands of his fellow inmates. It happens to the worst offenders in our society, a dark fact that we do not like to acknowledge. Before responding consider what I said in one of the threads on if he should have the death penalty. If the system can keep him safe then he does not deserve the death penalty. If the system cannot keep him safe he should get the death penalty because it is more humane than being killed at the hands of fellow inmates. This is what it takes to keep him safe, from himself and others. This is the minimum level of security needed to prevent him from taking his own life, or to prevent the other inmates from taking his life. The anti death penalty, anti life w/o parole crowd hasn't offered a workable solution in the alternative. What would you suggest? Letting him commit suicide under the cover of darkness? Letting other inmates kill him? Giving him a window he can break into concodial fractures that he can use to slit his wrist or throat with? This is a terrible punishment, but it is what is necessary to protect this terrible man. Even if not him those of his ilk. Do you think that Osama could be protected in our system short of these measures? This isn't a failing that is based on religion, it is based on something far more primal, the animal that is in the human.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#44)
    by jondee on Sun May 14, 2006 at 03:39:31 PM EST
    Well, one things for sure, nobody said Massaoui shouldnt be doing LWOP. That long, senile, stream of freeper paranoia and b.s in responce to something no one said, should be scotched from the thread.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Sun May 14, 2006 at 03:43:22 PM EST
    Tex - Anbody here take an anti-LWOP stance? You're misrepresenting, like Jim.

    Tex. I feel I could respond far better to your arguement if it were not for the other three hundred souls kept in that monument to that to which you alude, the animal that is in the human. You ask far too much of me to accept that the regime and the institutian are designed for any other purpose than retribution. Keeping him safe, if you will forgive me is, at best lame,and not least disingenous. One has only to read the numerous articles written by different sources that would in no way support your arguement. Your own words do not even support it as illustrated here.
    it is based on something far more primal, the animal that is in the human
    It is a shameful testement to what has become and is your country.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#48)
    by jondee on Sun May 14, 2006 at 04:18:41 PM EST
    Take another pill or twelve and go to bed.

    Christopher Boyce, a convicted spy who was incarcerated at Supermax, left the prison about 100 miles south of Denver with no regret. "You're slowly hung," he once told The Times. "You're ground down. You can barely keep your sanity." Bernard Kleinman, a New York lawyer who represented Yousef, called it "extraordinarily draconian punishment." He thought Aiken's description that prisoners rot inside its walls was too kind. "It's beyond rotting," he said. "Rotting at least implies a slow, gradual disintegration." He said there were a lot of prisons where inmates rot, where the staff "plants you in front of your TV in your cell and you just grow there like a mushroom." "But Supermax is worse," he said. "It's not just the hothouse for the mushrooms. It's designed in the end to break you down." Full article, more on the same page

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#50)
    by jondee on Sun May 14, 2006 at 04:24:08 PM EST
    And if we didnt think it was "about the man" no one would have said they supported LWOP. And your comments above about what (you thought) others said were just "about Massaoui". More unadulterated B.S

    Jim. The whole point of everything I have written from top to bottom of this thread is, and try and find otherwise in my comments, the horrific disregard that the establishment shows toward the human beings in its charge. It is not by accident that such conditions exist, it is by design, and there lays the indictement for cruelty that is equal to that some of the most insidious regimes in history. Torture is not just a case of pulling fingernails, torture is what is happening in prisons like this by government decree. Its not about the man.period. [Remainder deleted for profanity and personal attacks on another commenter. This is a warning.]

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#42)
    by soccerdad on Sun May 14, 2006 at 05:14:07 PM EST
    Ah some things never change remainder deleted

    It is wrong to say people are good or bad. People are either charming or they are tedious.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:31:21 PM EST
    I can't imagine jumping from a building as tall as the WTC, and burning is one of my phobias. I would like to see the people responsible for 9/11 held accountable. And I doubt very much that Moussaoui was capable of this:
    Controlled demolition would have required unimpeded access to the WTC, access to explosives, avoiding detection, and the expertise to orchestrate the deadly destruction from a nearby secure location. Such access before 9/11 likely depended on complicity by one or more WTC security companies. These companies focus on "access control" and as security specialist Wayne Black says, "When you have a security contract, you know the inner workings of everything." Stratesec, a now-defunct company that had security contracts at the World Trade Center and Dulles International Airport, should be investigated, among others, because of the strange coincidence that President Bush's brother, Marvin P. Bush, and his cousin, Wirt D. Walker III, were principals in the company, with Walker acting as CEO from 1999 until January 2002 and Marvin reportedly in New York on 9/11. At least one report claims that a "power down" condition prevailed on September 8-9 (pdf, p. 45) at WTC to complete a "cabling upgrade," presenting an opportunity to plant explosives with low risk of detection. More...


    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:38:03 PM EST
    ppj - Go back and read what I said on the Churchill thread about his words. Prediction: you wont. No guts and no integrity. Yer an obedient little feller though. Someday you'll get all those bones they've saved up for you.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#61)
    by squeaky on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:49:11 PM EST
    There was an unreported surge of early morning ER visits by burn victims that got caught up in the exposions on the ground or lower level floors. I am not sure why this was supressed in the MSM reporting.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Sun May 14, 2006 at 07:53:22 PM EST
    Sometimes I think that things are not only worse than many imagine, they are worse than many can imagine...

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:04:15 PM EST
    "Instead, you will claim that all prisoners are treated poorly, and by extension Massaoui." As if we hadnt already had innumerable discussions about barbaric prison conditions at this site. As I said, irredeemably FOS.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#65)
    by Edger on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:18:59 PM EST
    Introduction: Consensual Paranoia
    What causes mass hysteria, fear, and panic? It is the perception of danger and fear that is the cause. A perception is a sensory or sense impression, or image we create in our own minds. The danger may not be real at all, but illusory. But the perception of danger is what leads to fear, insecurity, and a sense of danger that sets in motion psychological mechanisms. Fear and panic lead to consensual paranoia, a primordial tribal psychological need to find an enemy or a scapegoat that a tribe seeks to destroy. Invariably, the tribe, society, nation, or government seeks to create a bipolar opposition, that is, a division between US and Them, the Tribe against the Enemy/Other, the Good Us against the Evil Them. This is a primal/fundamental psychological need that is an evolutionary vestige from when man was animalistic in evolutionary development.


    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Sun May 14, 2006 at 08:31:32 PM EST
    ppj - We've had innumerable discussions here about inhumane conditions in prisons. Theres nothing "equivicable" about it. Now try to be a man (you can go back to bending low for Bush later), and have the integrity to apologize for falsly attributing words to people that they didnt say.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#67)
    by jondee on Sun May 14, 2006 at 09:34:57 PM EST
    The top story tonight: Perverted old man says sadism equals patriotism. More after these words from Madame X's House of Pain.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#69)
    by HK on Mon May 15, 2006 at 02:51:00 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ says:
    The few murders we execute in this country are almost always people who killed in cold blood.
    Followed by:
    I make that statement as a flat fact. If you can show me that we regularly execute killers who have killed only in a fit of passion I will apologize.
    And then later that same day:
    I can think of nothing you have said that would lead me to think a search was worth while.
    I'm thinking that if we cut and paste all Jim's comments together, he'd go full circle, maybe even answer his own baseless statements. What does everyone else reckon?

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#70)
    by BigTex on Mon May 15, 2006 at 03:59:37 AM EST
    Keeping him safe, if you will forgive me is, at best lame,and not least disingenous.
    Yet you offer no alternatives. What would you do? How would you ensure his safety. Your assertation that this is lame or disingenous ignroes the reality of the situation. The worst of the worst here are routinely killed in prison here. See Daumer, Geagan as recient examples. The guards knew they were at risk and were incapable of protecting them. What alternative measuers would you have to protect his safety?

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Mon May 15, 2006 at 06:33:23 AM EST
    DA, He's not paranoid. The hordes are at the gates, and they really are after him. ;-)

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#74)
    by soccerdad on Mon May 15, 2006 at 06:57:17 AM EST
    The worst of the worst here are routinely killed in prison here. See Daumer, Geagan as recient examples. The guards knew they were at risk and were incapable of protecting them
    Incapable or unwilling?

    The Last Worst Place Least I be accused of undue bias or complete naiveté. (my text in italics, all others from other sources) Some of the problems that are the reality at Florence. The Last Worst Place The isolation at Colorado's ADX prison is brutal beyond compare. So are the inmates More than half the inmates have murdered somebody in or out of prison, said Blake Davis, Hurley's assistant. A third of the men are in prison gangs, The harsh quarantine is rooted in equally harsh reality: a single, deadly day 15 years ago gave birth to the ADX. On Oct. 22, 1983, two handcuffed inmates at the federal prison in Marion, Ill. killed two guards in separate incidents. In the first, ``The inmate was walking down the hall, with his hands cuffed in front of him,'' Werlich said. So fast and practiced was the prisoner, he ``was able to suddenly turn and shove his cuffed hands into the cell of a friend, who quickly unlocked the cuffs with a stolen key, handed his friend a knife and the inmate turned around and killed the guard.'' Later that day, another inmate used the same lethal tactic. I assume non here would want to dispute the above. The institution ADX Florence is a 575-bed facility that generally houses between 400 and 500 male prisoners. About 22 percent of inmates have killed fellow prisoners in other correctional facilities; 35 percent have attempted to attack other prisoners or officers. As a result, most individuals are kept for at least 23 hours each day in solitary confinement. They are housed in a 7-by-12 foot (3.5-by-2 meter) soundproofed room, built behind a steel door and grate. The remaining free hour is spent exercising alone in a separate concrete chamber. Prisoners rarely see each other, and inmates' only human interaction is limited to that of the correctional officers. Religious services are broadcast in from a small chapel. Human rights Constant surveillance and random searches at the whim of prison staff can be humiliating, and their frequency may be used as methods of intimidation and sleep deprivation. The maximum security facility at Marion, Illinois, which is the model ADX Florence is based on, has been denounced by Amnesty International for violating the United Nations' Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners. The cells are 60 feet below ground. Marion is a violent attack on human rights. Florence is even worse -- an outrage! As Oscar Lopez Rivera writes, "The demonization of the prisoner is the basis used by the jailers to justify this place. Both the physical environment and the mind set of the jailers have been created to treat the prisoner not as a human being but as a beast. Once the prisoner is stripped of his humanity any measure to incapacitate him is acceptable and justifiable." People of good will, people who want a society based on true human values, must work to end the lockdown at Marion and now Florence. Unparalleled in America, it is the only prison specifically designed to keep every occupant in near-total solitary confinement, rarely allowing inmates to see other prisoners. Indeed, Florence is the leader in a nationwide trend toward supermax prisons: in the past few years, 36 states have built strongbox facilities to house their most dangerous inmates. In California, the most notorious are the Security Housing Units at Pelican Bay and Corcoran, already the subjects of numerous lawsuits and investigations into alleged cruel and unusual punishment, as well as the staging, by guards, of deadly fights among inmates. Safety arguement? Special Administrative Measures, or SAMs, allow the government to closely monitor and even curtail outright the speech of inmates, if it is deemed sensitive to national security. In time, if he's good, he may work his way up from a windowless cell to one in another unit with a small window where he can see the sky and clouds and may be able to see other prisoners (who can't see him due to a one-way mirror finish on the internal window.) He may be able to get his lights turned off at night. All in all, this will be a dismal, dehumanising, psychologically debilitating ex istence for him. The prospect of winning his appeal will keep him going. Should he lose all of his appeals, he will have nothing to look to forward to but decades of confinement under these conditions. What a wretched way to spend one's life. Tex.You ask me what solution I might propose. Whatever it may be, I would like to think it would it be something better than this. And there are those among us that to whom I would say this: My experience is that as soon as people are old enough to know better, they don't know anything at all. And truly is it not the case that, Some cause happiness wherever they go; others; whenever they go. But the burning question be; Why was I born with such contemporaries? And the only thing to with good advice, in the words of that dear gentle man, is to pass it on, I offer this; Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. The consciousness of loving and being loved brings warmth and richness to life that nothing else can bring. Oscar Wilde. 1854-1900

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#76)
    by BigTex on Mon May 15, 2006 at 07:40:22 AM EST
    Soc - With Gagen it was incapable. They tried to stop Gagen's murder, but were unsuccessful. The inmate who did murder him was able to barricade the door long enough to have the time to inflict mortal injuries, though the guards did finally break into the cell in time to get Gagen some paliative medical treatment. I don't know the details of Dommer's well enough to state an opinion on inacapable or unwilling there. Oscar - I'm not arguing that the conditions aren't horrible. I'm arguing that they are the minimum necessary to protect Missouai from himself and others. You have tapped around the question, are you going to answer it directly? What would you do differently to protect him from himself and others?

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#77)
    by Edger on Mon May 15, 2006 at 07:58:03 AM EST
    How about stop demonizing the guy to create such hatred and fear in the hearts of others that they will want to kill? How about NOT trying to seal him into a hermetically sealed bubble that will make him crazier than he already is with zero human contact and not even a window where he can look at the sky and landscape of the planet that birthed him and that he is as much a part of as all of us? How about medical and psychiatric treatment to endevor to bring him to a state of mind where he doesn't want to kill? You get what you give. How about living up to a professed way of life?
    They howled and leaped, and spun, and made horrid faces; but what thrilled you was just the thought of their humanity -- like yours -- the thought of your remote kinship with this wild and passionate uproar. Ugly. Yes, it was ugly enough; but if you were man enough you would admit to yourself that there was in you just the faintest trace of a response to the terrible frankness of that noise, a dim suspicion of there being a meaning in it which you -- you so remote from the night of first ages -- could comprehend. Heart of Darkness
    As Ye Sow, So Shall Ye Reap.

    Tex. All I can say is, in my opinion, that what goes on there is far far in excess of the minimum required to run a prison. And your question to what I would do to resolve things. I will treat with the contempt it deserves. Perhaps such an answer would be available if I were to ask you how you might solve the problems with the Space Shuttle. Not a rocket scientist? I'm not a jailer. Shall we it at that?

    and not even a window where he can look at the sky and landscape of the planet that birthed him
    Not much can be added to that one edger. But windows, like flying unicorns, there aint a lot of em about sixty foot underground. But isn't that where the trolls live? Methinks someone should get on the phone and tell em theys lost one.

    Shall we leave ut at that? (correction)

    Shall we leave it at that? (correction)

    Can someone spare a few grey cells? Things are getting scary, I never was the best speller in the world, but had to get the book of words out the other day to check the spelling of "mean" Double super scary.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Mon May 15, 2006 at 09:06:45 AM EST
    HK-
    I'm thinking that if we cut and paste all Jim's comments together, he'd go full circle, maybe even answer his own baseless statements.
    More likely a spiral. Like when a airplane has lost its engines or is out of gas. He is a self appointed spinmeister/echo chamber; his patriotic unpaid job for the heimland is one of unflagging duty. When he gets caught he either lies or more often shuts up. Rinse and repeat: the same BS a week or two later.

    Posted by soccerdad May 15, 2006 07:57 AM The worst of the worst here are routinely killed in prison here. See Daumer, Geagan as recient examples. The guards knew they were at risk and were incapable of protecting them Incapable or unwilling?
    Who cares? I hope Moussaui gets the same.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#85)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 15, 2006 at 10:28:37 AM EST
    Dark Avenger writes:
    PPJ, you make a statement, but you have no statictics or numbers to support your position, so HK caught you out.
    If you also want to contend, as HK does, that this country routinely execute people who are guilty of killings of passion, I will gladly join those who are laughing at such a silly statement. You might also read the link I gave her, in which the various murders are expalined and defined. Oscar writes:
    All I can say is, in my opinion, that what goes on there is far far in excess of the minimum required to run a prison.
    And your qualifications regarding prision management are???? Oh, wait. I see. It is your "opinion." Now that clarifies everything. You write:
    I assume non here would want to dispute the above.
    No. Do you? And if so, why? Squeaky - Ah, the old smear routine again. Now, what is it you wrote??
    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.
    et al - I go back to what I said. Your condemnation of Florence is just an extension of your condemnation of giving Moussaoui a short rope and a long drop.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#86)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 10:34:08 AM EST
    Anyone else notice that Charlie's been booted from the site and all his posts from the last month or so deleted? Meanwhile some others here have apparent complete free rein to hijack, outright fabricate, and snark continually. Interesting.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 15, 2006 at 10:34:34 AM EST
    edger writes:
    You get what you give.
    Are you saying that we should execute Mooussaoui 3000 times? edger take your false "love of mankind" stuff and try to get someone else to believe it. I have read too many of your comments about me, and others, to believe you. So what you are doing is trying to claim that Moussaoui is being inhumanely treated by claiming Florence is inhumane. Actually what you are doing is using that to again posit that "America Bad."

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#88)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 10:40:11 AM EST
    "Killings of passion" isnt a recognized legal category. Idiot. But, hey you can say anything here. B.S away. Maybe go out later and see if you can find some little Mooslims to run down in the street.

    I've noticed Charlies gones too, It's bad when you get banned for being honest. While a troll can be dishonest, snarky, predictable and hi-jack every thread he doesn't want discussed.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#90)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 10:46:58 AM EST
    I also noticed that since Charlies gone, ppj's smell has been noticably more conspicuous around here. What did you do Jim, make a few phone calls?

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#91)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 10:57:21 AM EST
    Not only banned, but had his past posts, which were some of the most imaginative and funny we've had here, deleted.

    "Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 11:24:03 AM EST
    Rather unprecedented I'd say.

    Charlie was an complete A-hole that deserved to be banned.

    jondee that wasn't in response to anything you wrote, or am I stating the obvious. confused.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#96)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 12:07:14 PM EST
    Not at all oscar. Got you covered. In the past, boring "A-holes" like JRT were the first ones to be banned. But apparently things change.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#97)
    by Peaches on Mon May 15, 2006 at 12:12:16 PM EST
    Charlie was an complete A-hole that deserved to be banned.
    I was a big fan of Charlie. If it is true he was banned, I am going to truly miss him. Anyone have an explanation? What happened? Charlie definately had no patience for people with views that differed from him. However, Charlie was harmless. I enjoyed his one-liners and the aggitation he threw out at the trolls. Charlie was clever and he had style. I think people should be free to come to TL and have open discussions. However, when some posters come hear and continuely preach intolerance of left and liberal views, they deserve to be ridiculed. Charlie was the best for that. Where ever you are Charlie, I miss ya. So many times I have walked the way from the terminal with The Clash's Charlie don't surf playing in my head. Not a bad song. Not a bad monikor.

    I'm falling I'm falling in...

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#99)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 12:19:09 PM EST
    Peaches - His past posts deleted too. Has that ever happened here before?

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#100)
    by HK on Mon May 15, 2006 at 12:22:54 PM EST
    I didn't realise that Charlie had been banned. If it's true, it's a shame. His posts frequently had both humour and eloquence. Of course, we have to accept that we neither run nor pay for this site and so whatever JM says, goes. My understanding of the comment policy is that those deliberately bait with unsubstantiated comments are not welcome. With that in mind, I find it difficult to understand why Charlie has gone while others remain. Unless he wrote something 'unforgivable' that I missed. Another point is that it's difficult sometimes to keep comments 'on topic' as discussions often naturally digress. On a lighter note, Narius seems to have fallen off the planet too...

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#101)
    by BigTex on Mon May 15, 2006 at 12:27:49 PM EST
    Oscar - the question does not deserve any contempt. If you don't have an answer that's understandable, but it is a serious question, not attempting to be sarcastic. Just because you are not an expert in the field doesn't mean you don't have any suggestions. Example, to address your space shuttle question, I'd create an exception to the environmental regulation that caused NASA to switch the adhesive that is used to keep the foam attached to the shuttle.

    On a lighter note, Narius seems to have fallen off the planet too...
    Hush your mouth girleen, tempting the proverbial, oh no! Peaches, I hope you haven't seen the full thing, cos it's a little presy for being so sweet. Sart at clip one.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#103)
    by Edger on Mon May 15, 2006 at 12:30:04 PM EST
    HK: My understanding of the comment policy is that those deliberately bait with unsubstantiated comments are not welcome. With that in mind, I find it difficult to understand why Charlie has gone while others remain. You're not the only one...

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#104)
    by Edger on Mon May 15, 2006 at 12:30:43 PM EST
    HK: My understanding of the comment policy is that those deliberately bait with unsubstantiated comments are not welcome. With that in mind, I find it difficult to understand why Charlie has gone while others remain. You're not the only one...

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#105)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 12:38:51 PM EST
    Get ready for most of this thread to disappear sometime in the very near future.

    Tex. In light of the question being sincere I withdraw my comment, and please accept my apology. The question you asked though singular, was in fact manifold, given the failings of the place when addressing basic human rights and associated abuses. Again with the same sincerity, my apologies.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#107)
    by Peaches on Mon May 15, 2006 at 12:52:39 PM EST
    oscar, The powers that be at my workplace have made celebritywonder a banned site. I cannot access. Perhaps, it is for the best, so I can remain pure and sweet.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#108)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 12:53:59 PM EST
    Broadcast live from the Rocky Mountain state, TalkJim: the show where lefties get a chance to take a crack at a genuine rightwing pundit. Jim will be taking your calls after this important message.

    Peaches. Manners maketh man. And I always embrace. Manners before morals. Which being amoral, causes little hardship. It's a little bit of wonder and sweetness, especially in the "Bun Vac" clip. These English super iconic, super heroes, hail but not forty miles from where I sit and grind out my daily drivel. Can you view at home? I do hope. They are worth the wait. And Jeralyn may I, in my sackcloth and ashes, extend the same invitation to you. "Cracking toast Gromit"

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#110)
    by Peaches on Mon May 15, 2006 at 01:08:26 PM EST
    I think it is no secret that Jim contributes to Talkleft. I have in the past ascribed to the belief that Jim was a paid pundit for the right-wing. I believed there were several like him out in the blogosphere whose sole purpose was to troll and sabatage leftwing blogs and to discredit liberal ideas. I still think that there are agendas by some of the powers with money working through such means. Perhaps, Jim is attached to such an agenda. My intuition tells me probably not though. And even if he is, the best way to treat him is to treat just as any other and debate him head on. I think the fact he contributes to Jeralyns site affords him some leeway, but I really doubt he influences who is banned or not. I just don't see that Charlie has gotten under Jim's skin anymore than others have. Jim seems to almost welcome criticism and debate. He thrives on it. I think he might miss charlie as much as we would. If there were complaints against Charlie, I think they are much more likely to have come from someone else. I would like to see an explanation from TL, although I don't know if she will feel a need to.

    the best way to treat him is to treat just as any other and debate him head on.
    Peaches, oh you sweet creature, hear my entreaty. So earnest am I to be your cream. I pray you consider from this unworthy man his desire, far from base these emotions that you stir within me. That what I conceive of you, that remberence of youth not too long past, that which you have placed in my breast. Yet alas, your advice I can follow not, for reallity does rear it's sobering head, so I must this say. By far too old am I to undertake a lesson in futillity.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#112)
    by Peaches on Mon May 15, 2006 at 01:42:26 PM EST
    Oscar, You are right. It is futile to debate with him. He will concede no ground. this is a certainty. The only reason to respond to his outlandish remarks is for the benfit of someone who might be lurking at the site and is not acquainted with Jim. But, You can also ignore him. Or you can humor him. Or you can antagonize and ridicule him. When he gets your ire, you give him the satisfaction that his time is well spent. I'd rather he believed, when he went to bed at night, that his time would have been spent better in his vegetable patch. And, I would really rather not have to read one of his poems again.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#114)
    by HK on Mon May 15, 2006 at 01:46:44 PM EST
    Oscar, maybe I am the foolish one on this matter, but I'm pretty sure Peaches is a bloke. Just thought I'd mention it. Whatever stokes your cannon.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#116)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 02:04:38 PM EST
    Lets see, Charlie has a noticable tendency to get under the old futz's skin: eliciting at times a veritable torrent of ad hominem taunt and snark when the flustered one was on board - which was becoming less and less frequently - that coupled with "the Home State advantage" and the fact that house troll has now returned to his former haunts and habits, makes me seriously suspect that theres a little more to the picture than meets the eye. And why the deletion of past posts that were good enough to stand before? As if the guy were never here. Something stinks.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#117)
    by Peaches on Mon May 15, 2006 at 02:14:37 PM EST
    Jondee, you very well could be right. I agree that something doesn't smell right. I just don't know what it is.

    Sweet Lady. For you can be not other. I was truly impressed by what you wrote in the Iran column. The kindness you showed, and the heartfelt understanding of what might, and I must say might,be his essence, moved me deeply. Forgive if I am forward, but I would say such compassion can normally be found in those that know suffering. I fear that you perhaps pay him kindness that is unearned, but truly you and I need not go sallying down that road. For myself I say this, for who am I to judge, though to do not, is to ignore a lifetime of observing humanity. What you wrote was the first example, of what I would consider the actions of a christian,that I have witnessed on this site. But now the only thing to do is to ignore the man. After yesterdays loss of control and subsequent tirade, the pleasure I receive from this site should not be put in jepordy again Rage destroys a man, that is why more than twenty years have past since last I felt anything close to the irate feeling that engulfed me yesterday. It is now ten pm, I have sat, but for brief periods, at this machine since eight this morning. My respect for the hard work that is involved in blogging was realised today after putting that , for me, large post together. If again I might be forward, should sometime you ever fancy a chat with this side of the pond, then my address at the end. Should you wish to decline, and maintain the status quo then I would understand entirely. Again Peaches, from the feeling that is present in your writings, it's a sweet girl I think you are. And by the by, it would be with the two fingers that you're typing. northernpoet@btinternet.com And a ps, the link is to some clips of Wallace and Gromit. They be from up north like meself.

    Oscar, far be it for me to speak for Peaches, but I think he, like "Tiny," my brother's 6'-6", 275lb best friend in college, belies his nickname.

    Hk Give up lass, it's a lad from up tha's trying to kid. And this kid's the kid that's kidded thousands. If peaches is a bloke I'll show my arse in Walmart's window. Them not being familiar with Burton's window.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#121)
    by jondee on Mon May 15, 2006 at 02:27:56 PM EST
    Well, Im history here. Thank you to all my dear brothers and sisters for keeping the fire and spirit alive. Sorry I was a horses as* at times. Btw, I've already posted about this at other sites so delete away.

    Go away with you, not a hope.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#123)
    by HK on Mon May 15, 2006 at 02:31:56 PM EST
    Care to give us a link, Jondee? I'd like to read what else you have to say.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#124)
    by Edger on Mon May 15, 2006 at 02:32:53 PM EST
    Jondee: why the deletion of past posts that were good enough to stand before? Jondee, as far as I know, whenever Jeralyn bans a commenter, all of the comments are also deleted. It is not selective of specific people that I can recall. I too wish Charlie were still here, but it is not my house. It is Jeralyns.

    The sarcy one that is, not you jondee. I seem to have some rare timinig tonight. You can't leave us jondee, your the man, Dont leave me all alone with him. 'Tis not my idea of joy.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#126)
    by Peaches on Mon May 15, 2006 at 02:35:10 PM EST
    Oscar, Perhaps, you pay me too much kindness. I am most blessed. Others have seen more suffering than I, perhaps even Jim. I strive to be a pacifist and a christain in the true sense. But, I am not immune from the rage you experienced yesterday. But, I will agree that rage will destroy a man as surely as fourteen hours of sitting in front of any machine. Take a break from your machine. Tomorrow, write poetry with a pen and paper as you take a stroll through the countryside or city park. I am a luddite, as well as a Christain, and I know that the machine is the cause of much rage in the world. It dehumanizes us all. Rest peacefully tonight, dear Oscar, and do not be bothered that I am not a lady. I am Peaches. My friends call me Peaches. It is a name I have had for many years. I am a father in love with a dear wife. But, there is love to go around. Love is all we have.

    Oscar, give a look at this Peaches comment and the one's before and after... Still some charlie comments there, also, btw...

    It be in me besht bito Wehst Cork I be tellin ye this. Will ye arll going away to f**k.

    Peaches, your right girl. Enough is enough. Tomorrow.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#130)
    by Peaches on Mon May 15, 2006 at 04:58:02 PM EST
    Oscar, If it is any consolation, my 4 year old son tells his mother. "Mom, Dad and I like Wallace and Gromit. You Don't. If you don't mind we want to watch the movie."

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#131)
    by BigTex on Mon May 15, 2006 at 04:58:13 PM EST
    In light of the question being sincere I withdraw my comment, and please accept my apology.
    No problem Oscar. We all have our moments. Tis the greater man who can say I apologise. I for one cannot say I am sad to see Charley go. He was a drag on the civility of the board. Debate and disagreement are good. Repeated ad hominum and snark bring us all down.

    This thread has become of no relation to the Moussaoui case and is being closed.