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Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued

Colin Finnerty's May 18 hearing in the Duke Lacrosse case has been continued to mid-June because the DA hasn't finished providing discovery. I suspect Reade Seligman's will be as well.

Durham's mayor wants some answers on the recently released Duke police report saying the accuser had credibility issues.

I don't know if there's more news in the case, but with 183 comments on yesterday's thread, it's time for a new one.

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    Well, JM, this interested me:
    Duke Dean of Students Sue Wafiolek is named in the Duke report as the liaison between Duke police and administrators.
    Wafiolek said information on the accuser's credibility came to her straight from Duke police who said they got it from Durham police.
    "I was specifically told because of those inconsistencies and because of some past experiences that she had had with the police, that she may not be a credible witness," Wafiolek told NBC17.
    [my bolds] I wonder what the timing of researching the AV's past experiences with the police was? Pre or Post Nifong's commitment to pursue the case? Pre or post opinion that the AV was "not important?" etc.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:03:27 PM EST
    Okay, I'll start the new thread with something so frivolous I've been afraid to post: am I the only one who keeps flashing on that scene in Bringing Up Baby where Katharine Hepburn is walking around on one heel? SLO, I wondered about that ankle strap myself--it's not like it was a mule or slide. Maybe the buckle was broken? Missing that prong part? And she just tried to "make do" by sliding the strap into the broken buckle.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:03:46 PM EST
    Going back to the last thread..... Pat, excellent post. Nifong has bothered me the most about this case. In addition to your statements, either the Durham Sun or N&O stated that Nifong contacted them and insisted that they write the story about the DNA tests, which we all know started the media storm. Whether a rape occurred or not, Nifong's actions are reprehensible. In conversations with over 30 present or former Asst. DAs or Asst. AGs from various jurisidictions, all have told me they were disgusted with Nifong's behavior. (most are democrats too). It was intimated in a couple of conversations with some NC attorneys that a grievence may be filed with the NC Bar. Also, most said their jurisdictions have internal guidelines against speaking about a case before trial, let alone during an investigation. I wonder what the Durham DA guidelines are? Doesn't matter since Nifong did not even follow the line-up guidelines. Those that don't think Nifong's public comments and interviews were selfish and politically motivated are in deep denial of the obvious. IMHO: Your Nifong theory is a possibility and in fact may have occurred that way, however, it still does not justify all the public statements, appearances and opinions made by Nifong at the genesis of the matter. Nifong selfishly and needlessly jeoparidized a potentially legitimate rape claim when he should have let the investigation run its course. Most prosecutors ask the investigators to explore percieved or potential weaknesses in their case. I wonder what follow-up Nifong asked of his investigators.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:10:36 PM EST
    Kalidoggie, I think the guy was so wrought up about the election he didn't stop to consider anything else. Here he's slaved away in the DA's office for 20+ years, he's finally appointed top dog, and now he's seeing his chances of re-election slipping away cause he'll have to split the white vote with Freda Black (maybe some history with her? there seems to have been controversy about her campaign) Then this "perfect storm" case falls in his lap. He just had to go for it. And even if somehow it's proved w/o doubt that the girl made the whole thing up, which seems unlikely, a large portion of the community will still remember him as the champion of the downtrodden.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:11:36 PM EST
    Posted by Bob In Pacifica
    Showing up in provocative dress instead of changing at the Buchanan house may indicate that the AV wasn't very practiced at the art of stripping.
    Yes, Bob, it may well indicate that. But then that in itself raises the delicate question of what does she usually do on her 3-times-per-week, one-on-one escort jobs if she is not doing stripping?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#6)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:12:00 PM EST
    Good points SLO. I looked and the highest heel shoe I have is less than 2 inches. I put on one shoe and walked around the house. lol, my dogs started barking at me I looked so stupid. I couldn't get drunk enough to leave the other shoe on. In all of the stories about how awful the women were, why haven't they talked about that? I've never been drugged up so maybe that is why she did it but it makes no sense to me. Didn't Bissey say that she was walking fine down the alley to the back door? He hasn't mentioned that when she walked back to the house after the apology that she only had on one shoe has he? That would be too hard to miss. I'm starting to think the shoe picture at 12:00 doesn't even matter. Maybe she has both shoes off at that point.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:16:52 PM EST
    Posted by Del
    Maybe the buckle was broken? ... And she just tried to "make do" by sliding the strap into the broken buckle.
    Maybe so. But it seems like a poor judgment call -- i.e. impaired judgment -- to go to a 2 hour professional dancing assignment wearing what you know to be a defective shoe.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:17:30 PM EST
    It was a strip show, maybe the shoes were the first to go :)

    It was a strip show, maybe the shoes were the first to go :)
    Shoes are the only things that never go, in my experience...

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#10)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:23:11 PM EST
    Shoes are the only things that never go, in my experience...
    lol, I was just getting ready to ask if anyone would admit to the normal timing of the shoes. If this was more a sex show than a stripper show, would she still leave 6 inch heels on? Did Bissey ever say how she was clothed when she arrived? I thought he said conservatively. Is that just a rumor soon to be fact on the internet?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:23:42 PM EST
    Bob in P wrote:
    Showing up in provocative dress instead of changing at the Buchanan house may indicate that the AV wasn't very practiced at the art of stripping.
    It may very well indicate that she came from a previous engagement as well....calling into question her wounds. Time to investigate. Having been to a fair share of stag parties (even in Durham), I cannot recall a dancer EVER showing up without the need to change. It indicates something....

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#12)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:26:20 PM EST
    The Fox reporter stated last week that the private lab has asked for more time. If that's true, wonder if that is the reason for discovery delay? Dang, that's a long time to wait for leaks on any evidence the DA has (or doesn't have).

    If this was more a sex show than a stripper show, would she still leave 6 inch heels on?
    These girls had only known each other for a few minutes. In my (limited) experience, strippers acceding to encouragement to do a "sex show" perform a fairly benign and mostly faux exercise. And yes, they kept their shoes on. :)

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#14)
    by james on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:31:54 PM EST
    With regard to Nifong, does anyone remember the Washington DC DA (well, AAG actually) taking a swipe at him when asked about Finerty? He said 'unlike prosecutors in North Carolina, we don't comment on [pending cases]". So he isn't viewed well in DC either. She doesn't have much credibility and I have a serious concern that he was 1. acting police chief per his statements 2. DA and 3. candidate. Essentially #1 and #2 are big issues. While the DA does investigate he/she shouldn't be able to essentially run the police investigation and ignore police policy. He can now say that, since he was acting police chief (remember the chief was with his sick mother for awhile and Nifong conveniently 'stepped in' at this trying moment) that he can *change policy*. Ergo, the lineup can stand. It seems his conflict is more of a police/DA role than the candidate/DA role although all 3 are factors. And yes, the woman has little credibility. I doubt this trial is worth taking to court at this point, given that obtaining a conviction appears next to impossible at this point. Of course, that's said without knowing all the discovery, which Nifong has conveniently put off for awhile... If something 'good' existed Nifong would have leaked it by now. It seems that he is having to deal with issues he never expected, ie, the past gangrape claim,the hospitalization, etc.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:34:38 PM EST
    Bob,
    The problem comes if there is no matching DNA.
    I don't agree with that part. Lack of DNA by itself is not a problem. It will be problem only if Seligmann's potential alibi or another crucial fact really conflicts her story. Before seeing DA's timeline and victim's detailed story, at this moment I don't buy the alibi.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#16)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:36:35 PM EST
    Bob, Thanks for the post about how lame it is to quote the media in the blogsphere. The media loves to distort facts in order to keep a story alive. "This just in! Local news says it has evidence that the Duke players are innocent!" Per the media rulebook is to be followed two days later with: "This just in! Local news says it has evidence tht the Duke players are guilty!" To be followed by: "The local DA, Nifong has proved that he is incompetent." And all they do is report heresay without any facts. The ridiculous reporting on the May 8th Duke report is another example.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#17)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:36:52 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    IMHO says he can think of a couple reasons why she walked around with one shoe for forty minutes and I'm willing to entertain them.
    I was more specific, I said I could think of two or three reasons why she may have walked around with only one shoe on for 40 minutes. Two of them I am 100% sure of, the third 90%.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#18)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:41:13 PM EST
    Hi Del, You posted:
    SLO, I wondered about that ankle strap myself--it's not like it was a mule or slide. Maybe the buckle was broken? Missing that prong part? And she just tried to "make do" by sliding the strap into the broken buckle.
    I was going to post the same. Someone suggested she may have been too drunk to buckle it properly before the party. I thought it could have broken as soon as she started to dance or may have been broken before she got there.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#19)
    by james on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:43:56 PM EST
    As for her 'illness' it is definately not a 'nervous breakdown' given that no such diagnosis exists and her past behavior indicates that she has emotional issues. She probably has a mood disorder, ie, bipolar disorder. (I have bipolar disorder btw and it's completely controllable and shouldn't be viewed as a stigma). If she did have such a diagnosis her behavior at the party may have not been a cause of drugs but of some mania, alcohol, and medication. The alcohol part is sort of scary given that she shouldn't be drinking and has a history of getting in trouble when doing so (stealing car and almost hitting cop, this one probably too). Heavy drinking will really aggrevate such a disorder, which I can attest to. I don't think her inpatient care should be a factor - Kobe Bryant's accuser also had bipolar disorder - *unless* it is something like schizoaffective disorder, bipolar mood type. That's hallucinations, etc but very manageable - seem sort of normal. You'd need an antipsychotic as well as lithium/depakote/lamictal/whatever to function well. I do hope she gets some help with the drinking and also that if she needs medication she's taking it. Something that's not noted, though, is that if her 'breakdown' as caused by stress (which again I can attest to happening to me) then she may have been prescribed an anxiolytic on a long term basis - such as Xanax or Klonopins. If she kept drinking her behavior at that party would be consistent. Of course that's all hypothetical but she does have some sort of disorder and I'd hope that she has that worked out. As a side note to someone in the last thread saying that Duke PD has no authority at the residence, that's somewhat deceptive. They do have authority in that it is Duke property. Durham has primary responsibility but Duke can intervene. Duke can also choose to issue charges for violations on their property... Duke stands a good chance of being sued as it is their property anyway, which gets little notice.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#20)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:45:36 PM EST
    Jason Bissey, who lives next door to the university-owned house, said Thursday that he had a clear view of the accuser's arrival and that she did not appear to be impaired. He said he saw her walk up a long alley to the rear of the lacrosse house, then talk to the other woman hired to dance before entering the home. "They were both totally lucid. [The accuser] was not impaired in any way, I remember clearly," Bissey said Thursday. "It was a kind of a long way to walk so it would have been pretty clear if she was messed up."
    Her shoe must have been fine when she arrived.

    she may have been prescribed an anxiolytic on a long term basis - such as Xanax or Klonopins. If she kept drinking her behavior at that party would be consistent.
    This was my comment a few days ago, but I've been informed by other posters here that she had finished taking her meds. The source of that info, I believe, was the ever-quotable, ever-questionable, father of the AV.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#22)
    by james on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:51:32 PM EST
    Orinoco, ----- The lack of DNA was brushed aside by Nifong although he drove it..and then said '70-80 percent' of rape cases had no DNA evidence. WRONG IN THIS CASE. He is using AGGREGATE RAPE statistics, not those involving three attackers. While a meaningful statistic would be difficult, the percent would be far lower (compiling such stats is difficult because of the low frequency of such rapes). Of course, no one anywhere has pointed this out. Not the local media, not the national media, and not the friendly blogs. Not even the redstate patriotboys. --------- I live in the area and don't have a high regard for Durham in general. It's not exactly a safe place to walk around (certain parts) and has some real gang problems (which Nifong avoided by getting onto this fast). The election was supposed to be about gang violence and the rate at which crimes were cleared etc. Instead all that was ignored which is sad. It's sad because the DA is having to devote a great deal of time on this case which he shouldn't be - he's a manager, not a trial lawyer anymore. Durham has plenty of capable ADAs who could prosecute this case and allow him to tackle some of the other issues. It's just...depressing. Durham needs to clean itself up and stop the race politics which are not at all helpful. (the city manager likes to play that card to, although not so much in this case albeit he is a strong defender). I would, however, like the police chief to make a public statement. I do have a good deal of respect for him - he is competent and sincere. I hope his mother is doing better.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#23)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:52:02 PM EST
    Kalidoggie posted:
    In addition to your statements, either the Durham Sun or N&O stated that Nifong contacted them and insisted that they write the story about the DNA tests, which we all know started the media storm.
    Kali, do you have a source for this? Kalidoggie posted:
    IMHO: Your Nifong theory is a possibility and in fact may have occurred that way, however, it still does not justify all the public statements, appearances and opinions made by Nifong at the genesis of the matter. Nifong selfishly and needlessly jeoparidized a potentially legitimate rape claim when he should have let the investigation run its course.
    I didn't make it up as a justification for the public statements, etc. I was trying out a theory that could explain his decision that a sexual assault occurred in that house. My point is how can we declare him over zealous, a whoring politician, or stark raving mad, when we do not know what information he had and when he had it?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:53:03 PM EST
    Kim says she was not impaired upon arrival, neigbour says she was not impaired upon arrival. Another lie from defense attorneys. But forget it lets just focused on accuser's story and make wild speculation to find her gaps.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Teresa, thanks again for being a good sport and trying to see how the shoe thing might or might not actually work.
    Didn't Bissey say that she was walking fine down the alley to the back door [when she first arrived] ? Jason Bissey ... said Thursday. "It was a kind of a long way to walk so it would have been pretty clear if she was messed up." Her shoe must have been fine when she arrived.
    But as she is leaving, the 12:30 photo clearly shows her wearing only one shoe on the back porch. No one seems to explain -- alleged rape sequence and all -- how she would manage to hang on to that one shoe, and then carry it around in her hand afterwards. And then rebuckle the shoe back on when she gets to the back porch when she does not yet have the other shoe with her? Maybe so, but it still sounds pretty odd.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#26)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:04:26 PM EST
    I just figured out why some of y'all are talking about a six inch heel. Duh (that's my duh, y'all's duh comes later...or not... From the search warrant:
    a white six inch shoe.
    My guess is that's cop talk for a size six shoe. They could have measured the one they collected or just looked at the size. There are all kinds of exceptions, but many shoes measure to about what size they are.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#27)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:12:19 PM EST
    James posted:
    With regard to Nifong, does anyone remember the Washington DC DA (well, AAG actually) taking a swipe at him when asked about Finerty?
    He said 'unlike prosecutors in North Carolina, we don't comment on [pending cases]".
    So he isn't viewed well in DC either.
    Do you have quotes from other people in D.C. that criticize Nifong or is this one AAG the spokesperson for all of the District of Columbia?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:14:02 PM EST
    And for everybody's information: The 12:03 photo shows a white shoe, about 6 inches long, with about a three inch high heel.

    imho, are you suggesting that the shoes were not high-heeled (like 6" tall high heels)? probably not, and I'm sure you've seen all the pics, but here's some photos that show the shoe(s).

    OK, upon relooking, probably not 6", but dang tall anyway...

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:19:50 PM EST
    Kind of off topic: Azbballfan have you ever heard of the concept of cognitive schemas? It's the conceptual framework that people use to make sense of the world and people around them. We take a case like this and use our own personal experiences to make judgments or decisions. It might be a good exercise to think about why we consider something to be true. For example silence to me doesn't indicate a lie. But if I was a child of divorce with a household of secrets that would be something that would become part of the way I would judge a person/situation almost unconsciously. I don't know anyone who was raped (date raped yes but not stranger rape). I tend to be someone who is logical/rational linear thinking. I'm studying forensic psy. so that leads me to be very concrete evidence (I'm not interested in all the myriad details of the case - shoes?) my problem I may be too clinical and not empathetic enough to believe this girl. It would be interesting to know what drives the opinions of others in regards to this case.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#32)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:23:08 PM EST
    well, duh

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#33)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:24:01 PM EST
    James posted:
    As for her 'illness' it is definately not a 'nervous breakdown' given that no such diagnosis exists and her past behavior indicates that she has emotional issues.
    It could have been for what is called (if you are rich and famous like Mariah Carey) exhaustion. Hospitalized for exhaustion can mean many things : OD, emotional breakdown, depression, even exhaustion. Her father said she was doing too much at the time - working, going to school, taking care of her kids and was worried about some bills.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#34)
    by january on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:27:02 PM EST
    Hicht posted:
    But forget it lets just focused on accuser's story and make wild speculation to find her gaps.
    I'm not even trying to be unsympathetic to the AV, but it really doesn't seem like anybody has to speculate wildly to find gaps in her story.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#35)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:31:01 PM EST
    James, thanks for the information on bi-polar disorder. I worked at a VA Hospital thirty years ago (on staff, not as a doctor or nurse) and we handled a lot of people with psychiatric problems. I read and try to keep up with information in the field. Hicht, the problem with both Bissey's and Roberts' claims that she was sober is that they can't look into people's brains and gauge their levels of brain chemicals, alcohol and drugs. The AV could have been more sober when she arrived than later, she could have been pretty much sober. She could have been absolutely sober. It's clear that at some point that night a lot of people thought she wasn't sober. Her state of mind is an issue because she is making an accusation of felonies against three other people and at some point she couldn't walk on her own and was described as glassy-eyed and passed out drunk. That doesn't preclude a rape having occurred and it doesn't mean her story isn't correct, but pretending that her later appearance has no bearing on the case is whistling past the graveyard. Of course, it's speculation. If you haven't noticed, that's what we do here.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:32:11 PM EST
    kitkat you posted:
    It would be interesting to know what drives the opinions of others in regards to this case.
    I think empathety is one of the main factors to choose side when we all heard to story first time. Some people felt empathety to accused players others to victim. Unfortunately people inclined to feel empathety to alikes (gender, race and social status).

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:36:17 PM EST
    Hicht; while we generally feel comfortable with our in-group American culture tends to have people with multiple in-groups with ambivalent loyalty because we can always join another. it's not a bad thing just the nature of our very individualistic society. I would hypothesize that the empathy is more likely a product of experience than belong to any specific group (sex,class,gender).

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:47:41 PM EST
    chew2 posted, The alleged figures by Scheck that 20% of FBI DNA tests were unable to confirm that semen was that of an alleged suspect indicated a mis-identified assailant, not that no rape occurred. McElroy dishonestly clouded that point. McElroy plainly states in the same article, http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt "Before analyzing the competing figures, however, caveats about the one just mentioned are necessary. First, the category of 'false accusations' does not distinguish between accusers who lie and those who are honestly mistaken. Nor does it indicate that a rape did not occur, merely that the specific accused is innocent." How is that dihonest and cloudy? I don't buy the "Fair and Balanced" BS either. But, unlike a lot of the research data that's misinterpreted in the media (how do you think they did in STAT 101?), there is actually a disclaimer to go along with it.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#39)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:51:37 PM EST
    kitkat posted:
    my problem I may be too clinical and not empathetic enough to believe this girl. It would be interesting to know what drives the opinions of others in regards to this case.
    My defense of the accuser does not stem from empathy or even my belief in her. I don't know if she is lying or not. For some reason, Orinoco seems to equate my correcting misstated or misleading facts about her as my stamp of approval for all she has said and done in this case. I thought I read that Nifong sat down face to face with her. If it is true, I would put a lot of stock in his assesment of her as being truthful and being a decent witness. Nifong has obviously made mistakes here, but he's no buffoon. I'd bet the attorneys that know him well are telling the attorneys that don't, "Fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy ride." Nifong reminds me of bull in a bullfight that has two picks stuck in him. He's mad as Hell. I wouldn't want the only thing between me and a snorting Nifong to be a cape. If this doesn't fall apart soon, it is going to be very interesting.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:55:05 PM EST
    imho: intesting forgive me if I ask was your father someone who had a lot of authority like a judge?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:02:20 PM EST
    Well I'm off I leave you guys to figure this thing out.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:06:10 PM EST
    kitkat, I have seen a lot of cases of antipathy based on race not necessarily black and white. I am sure if there was a poll it would prove my point about empathy. By the way I agree experience is also a factor in empathetic.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#43)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:07:44 PM EST
    kitkat asked:
    imho: intesting forgive me if I ask was your father someone who had a lot of authority like a judge?May I lie down on a coach to answer?
    May I lie down on a couch to answer? My mother was a stripper and when she and my father met, he was on a university lacrosse team. It cost him twenty bucks to conceive me. But what could that have to do with my views on this case?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#44)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:36:52 PM EST
    kitkat
    Azbballfan have you ever heard of the concept of cognitive schemas? It's the conceptual framework that people use to make sense of the world and people around them. We take a case like this and use our own personal experiences to make judgments or decisions. It might be a good exercise to think about why we consider something to be true.
    Thank you for pointing out another service blogs serve. You'll notice that when there are people arguing cases such as these with incomplete facts, it is usually due to traumas in our pasts. It is therapeutic to post your opinions while acknowledging those traumas. Those who escalate the arguments and turn personal are usually those who need the most help. That being said, there are also those here who are just trying to share accurate descriptions of evidence to help inform each other. Thanks for the post, there has been a flurry of people now sharing their own experiences.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#45)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:50:01 PM EST
    imho
    My mother was a stripper and when she and my father met, he was on a university lacrosse team. It cost him twenty bucks to conceive me. But what could that have to do with my views on this case?
    Wow, only $20? Man your dad sure got off cheaply. This fully explains your position.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#46)
    by wumhenry on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:58:45 PM EST
    inmyhumbleopinion wrote:
    I thought I read that Nifong sat down face to face with her. If it is true, I would put a lot of stock in his assesment of her as being truthful and being a decent witness. Nifong has obviously made mistakes here, but he's no buffoon.
    He may be a very shrewd judge of witness veracity, but you're begging the question. You're ignoring the (strong) possibility that his ostensible faith in the AV's story is merely a pretense. It was fairly obvious that if he pressed charges he'd get a much, much bigger share of the black vote than if he pulled the plug on the case before the election.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#47)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:00:20 PM EST
    Wow, only $20? Man your dad sure got off cheaply. This fully explains your position.
    Well, all my "uncles" were good for $20 apiece.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#48)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:06:31 PM EST
    He may be a very shrewd judge of witness veracity, but you're begging the question. You're ignoring the (strong) possibility that his ostensible faith in the AV's story is merely a pretense. It was fairly obvious that if he pressed charges he'd get a much, much bigger share of the black vote than if he pulled the plug on the case before the election
    Nothing I've read about Nifong even suggests he has behaved unethically in the past.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#49)
    by wumhenry on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:19:15 PM EST
    Excerpt from WRAL news report:
    City Manager Patrick Baker said Day based his report on a phone conversation he overheard being made by a Durham police sergeant. "That they put that (report) on the Web site suggests that this officer is the source of the information, I'm telling you that the officer got the information by overhearing the conversation, not even a direct conversation with any of our police officers," Baker said.
    Two questions. First, how does the City Manager know that Day based the report on statements he heard from a city cop while the cop was talking on the phone? Two: what difference does it make? If Day heard the cop say "at first she told us that she was raped by twenty guys," methinks that's a significant fact, whether or not the cop was speaking to Day.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:25:16 PM EST
    i just listened to Kim's 911 call... in addition to the alleged racial slur she mentions a white stationwagon with 'KKK' written on it. Odd.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:25:38 PM EST
    IMHO posted
    It could have been for what is called (if you are rich and famous like Mariah Carey) exhaustion. Hospitalized for exhaustion can mean many things : OD, emotional breakdown, depression, even exhaustion. Her father said she was doing too much at the time - working, going to school, taking care of her kids and was worried about some bills.
    IMHO, I've worked for over a decade in the mental health field in a variety of settings (state & private settings, outpatient, VA, Universities, Contract Reseach Organizations). People are not admitted to hospitals for exhaustion, nerves, or a nervous breakdown. These explanations are used because of the public stigma associated with mental illness as opposed to extreme physical or emotional fatigue. Clinical depression can certainly lead to inpatient hospitalization. However, the vast majority of the time it is treated on an outpatient basis; unless it is determined that the patient is at risk of harming themselves or others. People who OD can be placed in a MH or "rehab" (after the ER) for the same reason. I won't comment on Mariah's PR staff's damage control.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#52)
    by wumhenry on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:27:14 PM EST
    Nothing I've read about Nifong even suggests he has behaved unethically in the past.
    Which would be significant IF we knew that Nifong was previously tested by a similarly-compelling temptation and did not give in to it. Which doesn't seem likely. What could be bigger for a 27-year lifer in the city DA's office than being elected to the top job?

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:29:29 PM EST
    Bob, I guess I was misunderstood in my post that you have replied. I was not trying to tell that she was not intoxicated in the party. I don't think there is too much question about that. The point that I was trying to make was; There are two versions of stories coming from two sides. In this forum or media people are trying to analyze every word that is coming from victim's mouth and try to question her credibility while they absolutely pay no attention to the story of defense lawyer. Example, defense lawyer made an argument about her impairment upon arrival to the party clearly conflicting with two eye witnesses. Nobody made any speculation about defense's credibility. On the other hand yesterday you wrote pages of posts because victim said she was scared and cried, as unlogical as it sounds arguing there isn't any photo showing her crying!

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#54)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:31:59 PM EST
    wumhenry posted;
    Two questions. First, how does the City Manager know that Day based the report on statements he heard from a city cop while the cop was talking on the phone?
    Maybe the city cop told Baker, "I didn't talk to Day, but he was hanging around the loading dock when I was telling the Sargent about a girl I knew in college that told me and my roomates she was raped by twenty guys." wunhenry posted:
    Two: what difference does it make? If Day heard the cop say "at first she told us that she was raped by twenty guys," methinks that's a significant fact, whether or not the cop was speaking to Day.
    See reply to first question.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#55)
    by wumhenry on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:43:59 PM EST
    Your answer to the first question doesn't really answer the question. It's more cogent when re-cycled in answer to the second question, but if Day heard a cop say that, it's a significant investigative lead, at minimum. Depending on what else Day heard the cop say in the same conversation, it may be more than that. It's is safe bet that defense lawyers will interview the cop, if they haven't already.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#56)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:06:01 PM EST
    wumhenry posted:
    Which would be significant IF we knew that Nifong was previously tested by a similarly-compelling temptation and did not give in to it. Which doesn't seem likely. What could be bigger for a 27-year lifer in the city DA's office than being elected to the top job?
    So you haven't read that he has behaved unethically in the past, either? Do you know any DAs? Their ethics are tested often. Their friends' and friends' kids' cases get dumped on their desks. It happened to Nifongs'a opponent Freda Black. Nifong got rid of Freda as soon as he was appointed DA and institued a rule prohibiting personal relationships with criminal defendants. It's known as the Freda Black rule.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#57)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:18:55 PM EST
    The Duke PD merely posted a lame speculative statement about what the AV said in order to fill out a required form and not do any more work. That's what happened. The Duke PD did not interview the AV or any of the players. The Duke PD was called because she was taken to the Duke hospital. Once you're called, you have to fill out a form. If you don't want to do any more work on the case or get into a fight over jurisdiction, then you make dismissive statements about the AV. Nifong didn't need this case to get elected. He had a commanding lead prior to this case and the official support of every important community group. What Nifong did need was to compel the players to talk to him. Therefore he allowed this story to get to the press, hoping they would respond by cooperating. Instead, they built the wall of shame. Now that school is over and the players have the opportunity to go home, Nifong has little chance of compeling testimony until when (if) they come back for next year. If Nifong has to start extraditing players from other states for subpeona's, this case will take forever.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#58)
    by Alan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:27:43 PM EST
    I'm not sure why this case has got my attention, but I've been reading these threads for a week or so, so clearly it has. The media publicity in Australia has been fairly intense, although it's fading now. The US and Australia are both common law countries, although our laws are radically different in a couple of areas. I don't know enough about the case (I think share that with most commenters) to say what happened. We should remember that the prosecution does not have to prove if a rape occurred. They have to prove if, when, how and by whom and the prosecution, not the defence, needs to meet the beyond reasonable doubt standard. It's not a good argument, for example, to say the rape kit proves rape without evidence that ties the accused to the rape. We don't know what the AV was doing before she reached the Lacrosse party and it's not completely and absolutely unknown for a victim to deal with trauma by trying to ignore it and carry on for a time as though nothing had happened. It's also not an argument to say that Nifong is a good DA who must have a case and therefore the accused are guilty. Equally, it's not an argument to say that Nifong is a lunatic and therefore the accused must be innocent. Finally, just for the record, in Australia and New Zealand both Nifong and the defence attorneys would probably be facing the serious criminal charge of contempt by publication. It doesn't happen all that often here, but elected officials and others are occasionally fined for making prejudicial statements. Both prosecution and defence have a duty to keep silent (apart from discovery) until the actual trial starts.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#60)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:48:01 PM EST
    partial transcript - up to image #8 IMAGE 4 Sgt: Did you recognize that person? Victim: He looked like Bret but I'm not sure. Sgt: Who is Bret? Victim: One of the guys that assaulted me. Sgt: One of the guys that assaulted you? Ok. Victim: Um hum.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#61)
    by chew2 on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:49:37 PM EST
    GSDfan, You quote McElroy and ask:
    "Before analyzing the competing figures, however, caveats about the one just mentioned are necessary. First, the category of 'false accusations' does not distinguish between accusers who lie and those who are honestly mistaken. Nor does it indicate that a rape did not occur, merely that the specific accused is innocent." How is that dihonest and cloudy?
    Because she doesn't make clear that in the vast majority of those "false claim" cases a rape most likely occurred, it's just the identification that was mistaken. Because she then goes on use the "1 in 4 claims of rape are false" language without distinguishing between mis-identifications and the idea that no rape occurred. The "1 in 4 claims are false" language is then picked up to mean that rape didn't occur and the woman are making it up. That use is highly misleading. It's just like Bush claiming Sadaam was a "serious threat because he had WMD". He was technically correct if Sadaam had a few artilery shells filled with mustard gas. But his claim was highly misleading, because he didn't go into those crucial details and just used the general scare term WMDs. McElroy's claim is similarly misleading.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:52:46 PM EST
    AZ, everything I've read about this election said it was a "tight race" and that Freda Black was expected to win on name recognition. Even after the Duke case came out, I read that an important African-American political group endorsed Bishop.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:53:08 PM EST
    Posted by wumhenry
    You're ignoring the (strong) possibility that his ostensible faith in the AV's story is merely a pretense. It was fairly obvious that if he pressed charges he'd get a much, much bigger share of the black vote than if he pulled the plug on the case before the election.
    Posted by inmyhumbleopinion
    Nothing I've read about Nifong even suggests he has behaved unethically in the past.
    I don't think I would call it "unethical" for Nifong to face the facts about his larger responsibilities as a community leader. Yes, he did win reelection largely on a bigger share of the black vote. As a result the role that has been thrust upon him is more than just being a routine DA in a typical rape case -- he now has to show himself as pro-active forceful about national civil rights issues and attitudes in general. Personally I'm glad Nifong won the election. A large part of the community would call anything else a coverup or a sellout. The lynch mob mentality at the NCCU forum that Nifong attended showed that. One shrill women demanded Nifong admit that taking the alleged rape victim to the Duke medical crisis center was a "conflict of interest." Seriously (!) Another demanded to know why the FBI had not been brought in (What? For 1 out of 10,000 rape allegations in the nation?), implying that Durham Police, Duke Police and the DA's office were all in on a giant conspiracy against the AV (!) Several people asserted as absolutely beyond question that if the lax players had been black, then all 47 black men would most certainly have been locked up in jail the next day -- in the year 2006. The whole thing was a screaming lynch mob. Nifong did a pretty good job trying to defuse the lynch mob, but that is what he was having to do. A rape has been alleged, a lot of people -- I mean a lot of people -- are certain that it happened, and most of those people openly want to see the lax players convicted of it. At this point those people are ready to accept nothing less. Nifong has to deal with that. He has to look no nonsense in every move he makes. People should stop being politically naive about this. This is no longer simply about true justice at all, not with these emotions raging. This is partly about settling past grievances, even if it takes lynching three more innocent men to do it. (Yes, some people have said that it would sort of make up for the past lynchings of innocent black men.) As a political reality, Nifong has to deal with that in order to try to avoid a real lynching. If ANYBODY still has enough no-nonsense credibility with that emotional lynch mob out there to be able to settle this thing down enough to avoid an outright hanging, and still get a reasonably fair hearing for everyone allegedly involved -- in my opinion it's Nifong.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#64)
    by Lora on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:23:51 PM EST
    Bob, Sorry to take so long to answer you from the other post. Hard to keep up. I did not say I thought she was a credible witness. I said I had no reason to believe that she wasn't. There is a difference. I maintain that there is a reasonable doubt over whether the AV was seriously impaired at the party. The defense has said she was impaired as if it were gospel. There is no proof. No tox results have been made public obviously. I doubt that you men here have worn shoes that look like the AV's. I have. The buckles can be very difficult to buckle correctly, whether straight or impaired. It is easy to think you've got it right, but then you haven't, and the thing can slip loose. It is quite possible that the one slipped loose, purely by accident, during the dance. If the dancer was scared and ran out after the offensive remarks, she wouldn't stop to grab her shoe, or take the other one off, a procedure which could take some time if it was fastened tightly. BTW, if she were very impaired, or becoming impaired at that point, I doubt she would have been able to run out, wearing only one of those high heeled shoes. Now, if they were persuaded to come back inside, again, she may have been too distracted to remove her remaining shoe. Also, it could be a real pain to get them on; maybe she figured better to wait till she recovers the missing one and put that one back on, rather than take the one off, and have to put both back on. And...I kid you not, shoes like that can be a real pain to put on. Now, if the remaining shoe were in fact fastened properly, it is quite likely to have remained on her foot during an assault. If the assault happened as she described, I doubt the men would have waited while she took off her shoe. Clearly, the pictures provided in the link (thanks SloPhoto) show she is perfectly capable of standing with one high heeled shoe on. She is compensating perfectly for the difference in height. So she is aware on some level, and definitely not too impaired to do that. That would be very hard to do if you were impaired. Her head is bent down, but that is not an indication of impairment. I recall the photo of her lying down, but I couldn't find it. Why would you assume it was due to being severely impaired? Why couldn't pain, trauma, shock etc. have caused her to lie down as well? As far as the very blurry incomplete photo of her in the car, if she were leaning way back, she could have done so from having been deposited into the car awkwardly after being helped. Or, who would want or be able to sit normally after having been assaulted vaginally and anally? Sorry, I'm not raising my hand. Remember the 911 calls? Many posters here heard sobbing, and thought it could have come from the AV. That's not being passed out. The officer's initial assessment of "passed out drunk" changed. Clearly if she gripped something and struggled to stay in the car, she was not passed out, and not too impaired to try to resist being removed from the car. He then thought, instead of drunk, she could have been mentally ill. If she had been traumatized and was in shock from what had happened to her, it is entirely possible that she might not respond to questions, she might not struggle with a difficult shoe strap, she might close her eyes and remain silent, appearing passed out, and she might not want to leave the car which could seem like a safe place to her. In short, she could have appeared either drunk or mentally ill. I say it is entirely premature to assume that she was drug and/or alcohol impaired. I believe it is the defense lawyers' attempt to discredit her in the absence of facts. I believe the pictures and her behavior are not inconsistent with trauma and/or shock.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:25:03 PM EST
    There likely are a number of Duke students right now who have a pretty good idea whether Finnerty had the opportunity within the timeframe suggested to interact with the accuser in the bathroom. They should start practicing their trial testimony now, as they don't want to come off like Eddie Haskell-types in front of the jury. You got to feel sorry for the broom joke guy, who you know is going to wear a jacket and tie for court like he did all through prep school, and might even call Nifong "sir." He's going to be pretty thoroughly and internationally McFadyened before this is over.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#66)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:28:09 PM EST
    Hicht, I think that the reason why there is much more speculation on the AV is simply because there are more bits and pieces of information regarding her that have been leaked to the press. When Finnerty and Seligmann were indicted there was a flourish of stories about them and if the third person is indicted I'm sure we'll get stories on him. However, the defense attorneys have been good at keeping a muzzle on their clients. I believe that there's a lot more interest around here in the details of the case itself as opposed to what I've heard about the talking heads on the cable networks. For instance, I don't think that the appearances of the representatives of the New Black Panther Party did anything much other than to prejudice whites against the AV. And as much as I've made critical comments and inferences regarding the AV's history, I can't say that I'd personally like to be under this kind of scrutiny. I don't think any of us would. I've been on this planet twice as long as the AV and so have a history of screwing things up twice as long. We all have our failures in life, and having them revealed during this media circus has to be awful for her.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#67)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:56:27 PM EST
    Hi GSDfan, I absolutely defer to your knowledge and experience in these matters. I have none. I think my point was - for all we know the accuser could have suffered from no more than whatever landed all these rich and famous people in the hospital, but since they are paying their own bills their diagnoses doesn't have to fall under whatever criteria the government or insurance companies require for reimbursement to the hospital for her treatment. But then again, she could have been admitted because she went stark raving mad last summer.
    Moss is 5-foot-7 and weighs an estimated 100 pounds, perhaps a few pounds less, though she says she never weighs herself. In 1998, she was hospitalized for exhaustion, and her people dismissed all rumors that "exhaustion" was a code word for heroin addiction.
    ++++++++++++
    Lindsay Lohan has been hospitalized for exhaustion yet again. Sure, the whole world believes that a healthy 18 year old girl is teetering on the brink of collapse for the second time in a six month period.
    +++++++++++
    Consider this Law & Order: Criminal Intent case closed.Series star Vincent D'Onofrio checked out of a New York hospital on Friday after being treated for exhaustion.
    +++++++++++++
    According to the BBC, soul singer Isaac Hayes was hospitalized earlier this week in Memphis. According to longtime songwriting partner David Porter, the singer is suffering from "exhaustion" brought on by overworking.
    +++++++++++++
    Tom Cruise's attorney said he is going to sue anyone who claims he is gay. In a related story, Ricky Martin's attorney has been hospitalized for exhaustion
    [gratuitiously included because I think Tom Cruise is annoying]

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#68)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:12:35 PM EST
    Lora, thanks for the reply. I come and go, and some of us posting here actually work, have families, etc., so no one can expect an immediate answer on anything here. I take your points. I think the information strongly points towards the AV being intoxicated soon after she arrived at the house. We'll have to agree to disagree. We'll find out eventually, when the discovery process comes and then yields to the trial. Right now we're all just making guesses from what we see.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#69)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:14:52 PM EST
    Inmy. Forty-five years ago, give or take, I had the lead in a school play (Cpt. Bluntschli in "Arms and The Man") By the end of the run--three whole performances--my parents were on the verge of hospitalizing me, because I was exhausted. I would fall asleep at dinner, had dropped to 165 pounds, at 6'2", and had trouble tracking. While in rehearsal, I had an adrenalin high. When the whole thing was over, I was so down I might have been diagnosed as clinically depressed, if I hadn't been spending so much time catching up on sleep--which itself is a symptom of depression. I presume professionals get used to some things and know how to pace themselves in others. I heard, more or less on topic, that some rock singers have hired voice coaches to teach them how to scream without ruining the pipes, while sounding as if they're--at the point of ruining their pipes. We had no pacing and no tricks of the trade, no stage business. I wonder how performers get "up" for the four hundredth time they sing something that requires emotion. Or a simulation. Anyway, I go along with "exhaustion", especially when it includes malnutrition, which must be happening to some of the women stars. Skinny as they look, the camera adds ten pounds. Can't be healthy. I heard d'Onofrio went loopy because Bush got elected, not because of "exhaustion".

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#70)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:23:00 PM EST
    IMHO, When rich people land in hospitals for "exhaustion" it's different from when low-income people land in the hospital for "exhaustion." Call your insurance provider and ask how many days of hospitalization your policy covers for "exhaustion." If he hadn't run his car into a concrete barrier Congressman Kennedy would now be hospitalized for exhaustion as opposed to his reliance on pain killers. While a poor person working too many jobs may actually be more exhausted than a rich person, they don't get to be hospitalized for it.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#71)
    by azbballfan on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:25:40 PM EST
    Bob, I'm suprised there aren't more stories about the boys past and upbringing. Seligmann's father is a fairly senior executive with Standard & Poor's covering healthcare. Finnerty's father is also an analyst working for Morningstar. Both have significant influence in the New York financial world.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#72)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:28:37 PM EST
    SLOphoto posted:
    I don't think I would call it "unethical" for Nifong to face the facts about his larger responsibilities as a community leader.
    I was talking his about reputation before this case. I was asking wumhenry if they knew anything about Nifong's past that would lead them to believe he would act so unethically - pursue a dog of a case for political gain.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#73)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:33:29 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey posted:
    Anyway, I go along with "exhaustion", especially when it includes malnutrition, which must be happening to some of the women stars. Skinny as they look, the camera adds ten pounds. Can't be healthy.
    After the creedmore incident the accuser lost a tremendous amount of weight before her parents took her to a psychiatrist.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#74)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:38:12 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica:
    When rich people land in hospitals for "exhaustion" it's different from when low-income people land in the hospital for "exhaustion." Call your insurance provider and ask how many days of hospitalization your policy covers for "exhaustion."
    That is exactly my point. If a doctor thinks she requires hospitalization for exhaustion the doctor has to call it something else - something that sounds worse if used against her when her credibility comes into question.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:44:56 PM EST
    Transcript of photo lineup: IMAGE 4 "He looks like [edited] but I'm not sure." "One of the guys that assaulted me." IMAGE 5 "He looks like one of the guys who assaulted me sort." "He looks just like him without the mustache." IMAGE 7 (Reade Seligmann) "He looks like one of the guys who assaulted me." "100%" "Yes." IMAGE 40 (Collin Finnerty) "He is the guy who asaulted me." "He put his p* in my a* and my v*"

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#75)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 06:47:13 PM EST
    The transcript is interesting. I wonder how correct she is about who gave her the money, the guy in the khaki shorts, and the broomstick comment guy. Finnery was #40 very near the end. I guess we can quit thinking about objects now. I believe Dad just says whatever he reads in the papers or the prosecution talking heads throw out.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:18:08 PM EST
    I think it is interesting that she remembers trivial details of that night well, who wears khaki and what not. However, she appears to be very hazy on the details of the rape,
    Sounds like the captains had the same profile. Go figure.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#77)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:20:17 PM EST
    Orinoco, I wish we could see the video of it. Several of those guys look so much alike that I'm not surprised actually. I have been wondering which # Finnerty was because she started out knowing everyone it seems. She sure sounds positive about Finnerty and though she said sort of, and then 100% on Seligmann that may be understandable since she had just gotten into the actual process. It will be interesting to see which ones she is correct, or not correct, on. If I put on my accuser hat, it seems helpful that she didn't id all 3 at 100%. On Greta VS, all 3 of the analysts plus Greta said the overheard conversation on the cell phone will not be admitted. They also said the report reflects very poorly on Duke. Also, NC has no typical right to a speedy trial, they use a case management system only. There is also no trial by judge so we can quit theorizing on that also.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#78)
    by weezie on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:22:37 PM EST
    If you are trying to be admitted to a hospital and are willing to pay your own way, you can certainly cover anything up with the term exhaustion. If you want insurance to pick up the tab there has to be a diagnosis and so far, no one has been able to crack the medical privacy issues to see if she was abusing drugs. But, on the bright side, it looks like she gained all that weight back and grew into a strapping big lady once again!

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#79)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:26:21 PM EST
    Orinoco, I meant to add, I don't think the lineup was meant to be very desciptive of the acts alleged, just who did what in general. Weezie, you are tacky.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#80)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:26:53 PM EST
    Teresa posted:
    The transcript is interesting. I wonder how correct she is about who gave her the money, the guy in the khaki shorts, and the broomstick comment guy. Finnery was #40 very near the end.
    There were probably plenty of khaki shorts that night, but I think I can see the reflection of khaki shorts on the back door of Kim's car. They would belong to whomever's forearm is in the the photo. Kim's car photo

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#81)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:33:25 PM EST
    imho, I'm sure you're right about the shorts. Orinoco, I probably posted while you were posting but I don't think she was meant to go into that kind of detail in the lineup. That would be in her official statement. IF she is remembering some of this correctly, it makes me think she wasn't too intoxicated, at least at first.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#82)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:46:34 PM EST
    Without other evidence, I agree the lineup won't matter. I also have a headache. I went to bed for a few hours but it didn't help.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#83)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:49:34 PM EST
    Here's some crackerjack reporting
    A Durham police officer said that he had initially downplayed and underestimated the story because the accuser ''kept changing her story and was not credible.'' Other reports include the accuser saying, initially, that the entire Duke Lacrosse team had raped her before she narrowed it down to 3 of the players.
    I think this reporter overheard Officer Day talking on his cell phone. We used to play this game in the classroom during rainy day recess - it was called telephoney.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 07:56:37 PM EST
    SLO wrote:
    The whole thing was a screaming lynch mob. Nifong did a pretty good job trying to defuse the lynch mob, but that is what he was having to do.
    Nifong did an excellent job of creating the lynch mob!!! "The circumstances of the rape indicated a deep racial motivation for some of the things that were done," said Mr. Nifong. "It makes a crime that is by its nature one of the most offensive and invasive -- even more so." AP quote, in multiple stories, I found it Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#85)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:06:47 PM EST
    azbballfan, I'm a little surprised about not hearing more about the accused's upbringing, too. My guess is that while money talks money also keeps mouths shut.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#86)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:09:54 PM EST
    Teresa, I hope the one shoe on one shoe off experiment didn't give you the headache. Take care of yourself.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#87)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:14:00 PM EST
    imho, how did I know that would be a right wing site? Do you notice when you google something and you read the worst quotes about the accuser how many of them link to free republic? I'm listening to Tucker. So far I haven't heard him eat any crow about "straight from first officer who talked to her". Poor Tucker, if he wasn't so pitiful, I'd hate him.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#88)
    by Teresa on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:19:08 PM EST
    lol Bob, I thought the same thing. Maybe I threw something out in my head and neck walking crooked.

    Re: Duke LaCrosse: Finnerty Hearing Continued (none / 0) (#89)
    by Teresa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:19:14 AM EST
    This could get messier. A possible DNA link has been leaked to the Herald-Sun. It seems to match the 3rd and unidentified player. It doesn't sound like a certain match though. A while male hair was also found on her but it had no root to get DNA from.